Log for #openttdcoop on 19th June 2013:
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01:23:16  <PublicServer> <Sylf> oh, I forgot to log off yesterday
01:23:37  <PublicServer> <Anson> WB :-)
01:25:03  <PublicServer> <Sylf> ugh
01:25:17  <PublicServer> <Sylf> we really should stop building any more cities
01:25:25  <PublicServer> <Anson> after i went off yesterday, i tried offline how to improve the transport of pax at Tsuu and ACM .... but i only found very minor improvements :-(
01:25:39  <PublicServer> <Sylf> and focus more on balancing the transports
01:25:57  <PublicServer> <Sylf> I see ministik got larger again
01:26:19  <PublicServer> <Anson> for ACM, i tried doing a roro ... the entry to the station looks nicer and is a bit faster, but then the exuit still has the same problem as it has now
01:26:29  <PublicServer> <Sylf> I really don't think we need 2 main stations for 1 town
01:27:08  <PublicServer> <Anson> trains in ACM arrive partially filled only, and they also leave partially filled sometimes ... and with different loading tmes, even a roro can't be synced, or can it ?
01:27:12  <PublicServer> <Sylf> ACM style of station has near ro-ro efficiency
01:27:42  <PublicServer> <Sylf> we need to focus more than just single station
01:28:02  <PublicServer> <Sylf> we need to focus on where pax are coming from and where they're going
01:28:17  <PublicServer> <Anson> yes, the problem on ACM is not the station itself, but how to merge the non-synced platforms on merging
01:28:27  <PublicServer> <Sylf> For Example, OIL station.
01:28:33  <PublicServer> <Sylf> it has 70k pax waiting.
01:28:55  <PublicServer> <Sylf> vast majority of them came from outside of OIL, and also going to somewhere else.
01:29:13  <PublicServer> <Sylf> They're using OIL as a passing point from another city to another city
01:29:39  <PublicServer> <Sylf> if those connections have enough trains, then maybe we will stop seeing 70k passengers at OIL
01:29:51  <PublicServer> <Sylf> We need to focus on large problems like that at this point.
01:29:57  <PublicServer> <Sylf> Just MHO.
01:30:44  <PublicServer> <Anson> true ... exception might be small problems but which appear in every town and thus the total effect is bigger than seen at first sight :
01:30:47  <PublicServer> <Sylf> hmmm
01:31:05  <PublicServer> <Sylf> what I find very weird about ACM
01:31:31  <PublicServer> <Sylf> for example, those who are waiting at ACM, trying to go to SWK next, they're mostly trying to go to STD.
01:31:45  <PublicServer> <Anson> the sbahn always empties the most distant local station, but misses thousands of pax in the nearest ... eg 0, 200, 1500, 10000+ for tsuu south to ACM
01:31:52  <PublicServer> <Sylf> I
01:32:07  <PublicServer> <Sylf> I don't know if SBahns matter much yet
01:32:34  <PublicServer> <Sylf> It feels like more focus needs to be placed on IC trains first
01:33:00  <PublicServer> <Anson> hehe, i would have to wait at my local sbahn with 2500 more people, just because someone thinks ICE is more important
01:33:02  <PublicServer> <Anson> :-)
01:35:02  <PublicServer> <Anson>  you wrote about ACM, SWK and STD ... part of it depends on the "crazy lines" parameter where you can set how full normal connections need to be until also other more crazy connections are used
01:37:00  <PublicServer> <Anson> just checked ACM for trains to SWK: of the 800 pax waiting, only 1 wanted to go to std, and the others directly to standardNN
01:37:30  <PublicServer> <Sylf> Right.
01:38:37  <PublicServer> <Sylf> So, if there's not enough trains between ACM and STD to meed the demand, and if they see there's enough empty seats on trains between ACM and SWK, and also SWK and STD, those pax start going to STD via SWK
01:40:38  <PublicServer> <Sylf> DaRabman: don't use presignals there
01:43:38  <PublicServer> <Anson> of the 15k to 20k pax waiting in STD, 10k+ want to go to local stations only ... that would be an argument to improve the sbahn
01:43:44  <PublicServer> <DaRabman> Is that because the ICE trains would take the wrong route if the ML was backed up?
01:43:50  <PublicServer> <Anson> similar problems are in other towns too ...
01:44:28  <PublicServer> <Sylf> They won't take wrong line, but you're basically creating a signal gap
01:45:06  <PublicServer> <Anson> the town layout you use looks very efficient to me for normal games without cargodist, since you only need to transport pax TO a main station, but not back to the different locals
01:45:06  <PublicServer> <Sylf> when you have a line split that leads to different destination, you don't want presignals.
01:45:20  <PublicServer> <Sylf> When you want to balance between the choices, you want to use presignals.
01:45:40  <PublicServer> <DaRabman> Okay,
01:45:51  <PublicServer> <DaRabman> thanks for the tip
01:46:30  <PublicServer> <Sylf> Anson, I actually modified some of my SBahn from what I've built from before.
01:46:37  <PublicServer> <Sylf> Like VKG.
01:47:03  <PublicServer> <Sylf> actually, probably most SBahns I've built in this game.
01:47:09  <PublicServer> <Anson> ignoring the physical layout of the sbahn (in stripes), the logical layout is a star, and thus the sentral station gets insane traffic
01:47:56  <PublicServer> <Sylf> Short stars with max 5 stations can be okay, I suppose.
01:47:58  <PublicServer> <Anson> in real life, sbahn networks have many lines across and around town, with not too many going to a central station
01:49:13  <PublicServer> <Anson> in standard, the single stations have up to 2500+ pax, and for some branch from STD, there are 4500+ pax waiting ...
01:50:20  <PublicServer> <Sylf> If someone wants to come up a way to make cargodist game work with coop style playing, they can do it
01:50:34  <PublicServer> <Sylf> but I won't be that thinker
01:50:50  <PublicServer> <Sylf> all right, let's fix STP, DaRabman
01:51:12  <PublicServer> <Sylf> ready?
01:51:14  <PublicServer> <Anson> and even in ACM with only 3 spikes, with 3 stations each, there are 0, a few hundred, and 2000+ pax waiting
01:51:29  <PublicServer> <Sylf> srsly, I dunno.
01:51:47  <PublicServer> <Sylf> I just don't get cargodist, and don't want to bother with it.
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02:11:28  <PublicServer> <Sylf> what the hell....  I wonder who expanded Ma-Me-O-Beach
02:17:16  <PublicServer> <Sylf> DaRabman: can we work on some of your stuff together?
02:17:54  <PublicServer> <DaRabman> sure, in what way?
02:18:13  <PublicServer> <Sylf> showing you some tips, fixing stuff, etc.
02:18:20  <PublicServer> <DaRabman> Yeah, please do
02:18:27  <PublicServer> <DaRabman> first time doing coop
02:18:33  <PublicServer> <Sylf> do you want to start with the town or the ICE systems?
02:18:59  <PublicServer> <DaRabman> I've been slaving over the town for ages, so let's focus on ICE
02:19:05  <PublicServer> <Sylf> OK.
02:19:31  <PublicServer> <Sylf> In this SLH, we have some pretty bad curves, so that will be the primary focus.
02:20:26  <PublicServer> <Sylf> a sharp !bend like that will slow down the trains a lot, and that by itself will be a bottleneck, potentially slowing down the mainline traffic despite the long lead-in.
02:20:57  <PublicServer> <Sylf> Also, stuff like !multiple bends can also slow down the trains, so we want to avoid those as well.
02:21:27  <PublicServer> <Sylf> One thing I noticed is that you hardly (if at all) touched the main lines.
02:21:50  <PublicServer> <Sylf> The fixes I'll be showing will make some big looking changes.
02:22:09  <PublicServer> <Sylf> But hopefully it'll all make sense.
02:22:28  <PublicServer> <Sylf> Let's start with the area next to Girouxville
02:22:38  <PublicServer> <DaRabman> okay
02:24:04  <PublicServer> <DaRabman> Aww, my "beautiful" prio :'(
02:27:14  <PublicServer> <Sylf> by using the double bridges on one of the main lines, the join is now much shorter
02:27:24  <PublicServer> <Sylf> giving some space between SLH 14 and SLH 3
02:27:30  <PublicServer> <Sylf> SLH 2*
02:28:02  <PublicServer> <Sylf> when possible, having space like that is important, especially for future exansion of the mainlines.
02:28:16  <PublicServer> <DaRabman> okay
02:28:38  <PublicServer> <Sylf> we will make same kind of compacting for the split above.
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02:29:04  <PublicServer> <Sylf> I need to move the split by 1 tile there to avoid the CL issue.
02:31:48  <PublicServer> <Sylf> ok so far?
02:31:58  <PublicServer> <DaRabman> Yeah, you do it so quickly :)
02:32:12  <PublicServer> <Sylf> I've been play for 3 years :)
02:32:32  <PublicServer> <DaRabman> 3 days!
02:32:39  <PublicServer> <Sylf> all right, the other side.
02:32:45  <PublicServer> <DaRabman> k
02:35:44  <PublicServer> <Sylf> hrm
02:36:18  <PublicServer> <Sylf> hm.
02:36:20  <PublicServer> <DaRabman> 2x45?
02:37:26  <PublicServer> <Sylf> it's not CL 5, but it's better than before
02:37:56  <PublicServer> <Anson> by moving the two double vrifges, you can make a CL4 instead of CL3
02:38:19  <PublicServer> <DaRabman> got it
02:38:29  <PublicServer> <Sylf> that'll cut the CL5 right under the SLH14 sign
02:39:28  <PublicServer> <Anson> yes, what you are doing now is what i meant
02:39:54  <PublicServer> <Sylf> sorr, but that part of ro-ro was an overkill
02:40:30  <PublicServer> <DaRabman> Fair enough, I wanted to keep the track length evenish
02:41:28  <PublicServer> <Sylf> actually, there's little point in making it a roro, only to have it take up so much space
02:42:02  <PublicServer> <DaRabman> Do you think you could leave me with a few tips?
02:42:13  <PublicServer> <DaRabman> It's quite demoralising watching several hours' work go up in smoke
02:42:29  <PublicServer> <Anson> there is also no poing in making it synced, since trains mostly have a different loading% and thus take different times to load/unload
02:42:52  <PublicServer> <Sylf> ok, the part about SBahn is mainly this...
02:43:14  <PublicServer> <Sylf> the part that's marging and splitting near the town is pretty inefficient
02:43:24  <PublicServer> <Sylf> something simpler will work much better.
02:44:34  <PublicServer> <Sylf> so yeah, I will end up undoing a lot of it, I'm afraid.
02:44:34  <PublicServer> <DaRabman> Okay, I'll give it a redesign
02:44:44  <PublicServer> <Sylf> so
02:44:52  <PublicServer> <Sylf> let me point out some stuff, then.
02:45:43  <PublicServer> <Sylf> for the lines leading up to the main station - those lines don't need to mix with all lines, so you can have couple separate systems that don't cross with each other
02:46:19  <PublicServer> <Sylf> with the terminus station, we can make a simple LRLR line between the main station and the town.
02:46:42  <PublicServer> <Sylf> the stations x.3 and x.4 can be in one system.
02:46:54  <PublicServer> <Sylf> stations x.0, x.1, and x.2 in another system.
02:47:32  <PublicServer> <Anson> what about all the STP x.1 stations and the STP x.3 stations ? i don't see why they are needed ?!
02:47:34  <PublicServer> <Sylf> or group x.2 iwth x.3 and x.4.  that's the thinner part of the town.
02:48:16  <PublicServer> <Sylf> it doesn't really hurt.
02:48:58  <PublicServer> <Sylf> now, the part about the deadlock possibility
02:49:04  <PublicServer> <Sylf> I think Anson made that sign
02:49:06  <PublicServer> <Anson> hint for beginners: when building stations, you can set "coverage area" to be shown, and then see that the stations have a range of 4 tiles, thus can be 8 tiles separate from each other
02:49:32  <PublicServer> <Sylf> the network design we have is very prone to deadlocks
02:50:07  <PublicServer> <Sylf> for this style of network, it'd be best to leave the cros only at the terminus station
02:50:42  <PublicServer> <Sylf> so, taking x.4 stations for an example
02:51:24  <PublicServer> <Anson> btw: i think we should drive on the right side ... not in australia here .-)
02:51:26  <PublicServer> <Sylf> that, and you have a dead-lock free system
02:51:37  <PublicServer> <DaRabman> (UK) ;)
02:52:04  <PublicServer> <Sylf> so, if I may, I'll make those changes.
02:52:18  <PublicServer> <Sylf> so I'll leave all stations and roads as they are
02:52:18  <PublicServer> <Anson> on the welcome server, it doesn't matter, but here, people should agree on one standard, either left or right
02:53:16  <PublicServer> <DaRabman> Just go ahead guys, if you're bored and want a project you might as well replace the whole thing
02:54:14  <PublicServer> <DaRabman> It's much easier for you than it is for me, it'd taken me a good few hours to squeeze that in
02:54:36  <PublicServer> <Sylf> I realize that.
02:54:46  <PublicServer> <DaRabman> I'm grateful fo r the help, I want to do much more, but it's 4am and I'm running out of energy :)
02:54:56  <PublicServer> <Sylf> and I'm trying to show what we can take what we have, and make change to the existing stuff
02:55:06  <PublicServer> <Sylf> not completely demolishing everything and redoing.
02:56:36  <PublicServer> <DaRabman> Thanks for the guidance, I realise it's quite codified here
02:57:24  <PublicServer> <Sylf> yeah, it's a system that's built on 8? years of experience by the whole team
02:58:48  <PublicServer> <Sylf> oh.
02:58:50  <PublicServer> <Sylf> rawr
03:01:52  <PublicServer> <Sylf> hrm
03:02:42  <PublicServer> <Anson> do you want to use x.1 and x.3 stations ?
03:02:54  <PublicServer> <Sylf> yeah, we'll use them.
03:06:13  <PublicServer> <Sylf> oh crap
03:10:03  <PublicServer> <Anson> where can i see train numbers when the trains have been renamed ?
03:10:38  <PublicServer> <Sylf> dunno.
03:10:40  <PublicServer> <DaRabman> There's a St. Paul Group in the vehicle list, seems pretty comprehensive
03:11:34  <PublicServer> <Anson> yes, when you look up groups in the list of all trains, you can find also renamed trains
03:12:00  <PublicServer> <Anson> but what about te other direction, like clicking on a train and wanting to know the group it belongs to ?
03:12:42  <PublicServer> <Anson> when the train still has its number, i can sort the list of all trains by number and see a label for the group
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03:14:39  <PublicServer> <DaRabman> I should have guessed trains went unnamed for a reason
03:16:14  <PublicServer> <Anson> you still can rename them, and append the original number to the name ... then you have named trains and still easily see the number
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03:16:49  <PublicServer> <Anson> but with up to a few thousand trains, it is quire some work to rename each single one :-) thus you will only rename a few select trains anyway
03:17:35  <PublicServer> <Sylf> oh.
03:17:53  <PublicServer> <Sylf> we forgot to add mail carriages on STP Sbahn trains
03:18:13  <PublicServer> <Anson> there are some other towns without mail transport too
03:18:39  <PublicServer> <Sylf> but all ICE trains have mail carriages
03:19:33  <PublicServer> <Sylf> oh
03:19:37  <PublicServer> <Sylf> ERM is in deadlock
03:19:51  <PublicServer> <Sylf> stupid PBS loop
03:20:29  <PublicServer> <Sylf> yup, the town is pissed at us
03:22:39  <PublicServer> <Anson> sedgewick sbahn, acme sbahn, ministik sbahn, oil feed sbahn, rainbow lake sbahn, stpaul sbahn, taber sbahn, theys all have no mail wagons !
03:22:57  <PublicServer> <Sylf> sedgewick has dedicated mail trains
03:23:15  <PublicServer> <Sylf> ministik has mail
03:23:17  <PublicServer> <Anson> and those few towns that have mail sbahn, have too few wagons for the big demand to send letters
03:23:35  <PublicServer> <Sylf> acme has mail
03:23:58  <PublicServer> <Sylf> oil doesn't have mail because oil rigs don't produce mail
03:24:21  <PublicServer> <Sylf> rainbow lake has mail
03:24:40  <PublicServer> <Sylf> taber has mail
03:25:12  <PublicServer> <Sylf> one thing not to watch out for is the mail carriage colors on the monorail SBahn trains.
03:25:26  <PublicServer> <Sylf> mail and pax carriages look exactly the same.
03:26:13  <scshunt> can we change that?
03:26:15  <PublicServer> <Anson> i thought that i had checked one train from each group by looking at its total cargo ... but i seem to have skipped ministik because of the same looks as all others
03:26:49  <PublicServer> <Sylf> We can't change the look of the monorail SBahn trains
03:27:03  <PublicServer> <Sylf> those trains change color depending on the length of each train
03:27:18  <PublicServer> <Sylf> that's the only way we can control their colors
03:28:02  <PublicServer> <Sylf> hmm
03:28:13  <PublicServer> <Sylf> maybe st paul main station can use more capacity
03:28:42  <scshunt> wait, which grf are we using for trains?
03:28:49  <PublicServer> <Sylf> NUTS
03:29:02  <scshunt> isn't NUTS supposed to make all cars distinct?
03:29:38  <PublicServer> <Sylf> every single monorail SBahn trains look identical :P
03:29:48  <PublicServer> <Anson> yes, as soon as V takes a week of holidays and paints them :-)
03:30:09  <scshunt> :(
03:30:12  <PublicServer> <DaRabman> Goodnight guys, thanks for the help
03:30:13  <scshunt> i feel cheated
03:30:26  <scshunt> i thought they were all supposed to look different
03:30:33  <PublicServer> <Sylf> start contributing drawings, then :P
03:30:37  <PublicServer> *** DaRabman has left the game (leaving)
03:31:21  <scshunt> i dunno how
03:31:55  <PublicServer> <Sylf> you didn't know how to play ottd before you knew about the game.
03:32:01  <PublicServer> <Sylf> neither did I
03:32:07  <PublicServer> <Sylf> but we both know how now :P
03:35:03  <PublicServer> <Anson> is it a bug or a wrong description ? cham engines say that they can carry only cargo trains ???
03:35:29  <PublicServer> <Anson> viking uses destroyer engines for pax and mail ...
03:36:11  <PublicServer> <Sylf> passengers are express cargo
03:40:05  <PublicServer> <Anson> ah, then "cargo wagons" is (as we say in german) "doppelt gemoppelt" ... like a black panther, a white pleonasm (looked that word up in a dictionary:-), etc ?
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03:41:04  <PublicServer> <Sylf> meh.  Im gonna kill MIN W
03:42:04  <PublicServer> <Anson> ministik is done replacing express wagons ... may i cancel that command ?
03:42:14  <PublicServer> <Sylf> yes
03:59:51  <PublicServer> <Anson> OUCH
03:59:57  <PublicServer> <Sylf> ?
04:00:07  <PublicServer> <Anson> was just looking at different train lengths and capacities
04:00:13  <PublicServer> <Sylf> oh sorry
04:00:27  <PublicServer> <Sylf> I'm trying to sort all the train groupings
04:00:37  <PublicServer> <Sylf> and was cleaning all ungrouped unused trains
04:01:47  <PublicServer> <Anson> i found some nice trains to be used as sbahn, mostly with good accelaration, but with reduced capacity, bigger length, etc
04:02:17  <PublicServer> <Anson> with TL2, there is probably nothing better than we have now
04:02:21  <PublicServer> <Sylf> those trade offs were designed with care
04:02:59  <PublicServer> <Anson> hehe, the longer it takes to decide, he better the planning was for giving the trains specific advantages and disadvantages :-)
04:03:37  <PublicServer> <Anson> the animal train might be useful for Sbahn ... using TL3, they still can take CL1 without loss of speed, and they have good acceleration too
04:04:03  <PublicServer> <Sylf> but capacity probably is bad
04:04:29  <PublicServer> <Sylf> SBahns are best made with trains designed for the use
04:04:51  <PublicServer> <Anson> yes, engine is 2 halftiles, thus TL2 has no capacity, and you need to use TL3 at least
04:05:05  <PublicServer> <Sylf> it's ok
04:05:15  <PublicServer> <Sylf> the commuter trains around tokyo are often 15 cars long
04:05:39  <PublicServer> <Sylf> nobody said sbahns needs to be short
04:05:40  <scshunt> wait, why does TL2 have no capacity?
04:05:54  <scshunt> you have .5 (engine) + .5 (engine) + 1 (cargo)
04:06:18  <PublicServer> <Sylf> 1 pax wagon + 1 mail wagon = crap capacity
04:06:44  <PublicServer> <Sylf> especially with maglev intercity trains like animal trains or slugs
04:06:47  <scshunt> crap yes
04:06:55  <PublicServer> <Anson> Sbahn and Ubahn in my town usually consist of 3 or 4 quarter trains, which each have 2 wagons, thus like 3 or 4 of those apocalypse trains, and capacity is around 1000
04:08:05  <PublicServer> <Sylf> there's no trains around where I live ....
04:08:12  <PublicServer> <Sylf> ZERO trains.
04:08:18  <PublicServer> <Sylf> It's so sad
04:08:34  <scshunt> :(
04:08:37  <scshunt> my city is getting an LRT!
04:09:36  <PublicServer> <Anson> here, they always have problems with the trains ... thus they are short of the planned numbers ... i think they want to have 550+ trains, but really have only 520 or something
04:10:38  <PublicServer> <Sylf> I <3 trams
04:11:38  <PublicServer> <Anson> when ordering the trains, they forgot that we live in central europe and have snow in the winter and 30+ celsius in the summer. thus wheel cooling and breaks get stuck by snow, and aircondition no longer works at 35 celsius
04:13:39  <PublicServer> <Anson> in STP, we could extend trains to 3 doublesets (TL3) on most stations without problems. only 3 of 15 stations might need to move a house :-)
04:13:53  <PublicServer> <Sylf> pft.  come to middle of america.  You might have to drive a train that drive through the Rockies where it's snowing, down to Death Valley at 45+ degrees within 1 day
04:14:35  <PublicServer> <Anson> you are lucky that you didn't get our trains for that task :-)
04:15:45  <PublicServer> <Anson> why didn't you want to reduce the number of stations in STP ? so that they overlap on purpose and have less pax per station ?
04:16:12  <PublicServer> <Sylf> I didn't want to destroy more than I needed to.
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04:20:38  <PublicServer> <Anson> what about towns like SWK, where 7500+ total are waiting on one set of stations, and 4500+ obn the other ... should we do something about it, or just leave the pax waiting ?
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04:24:00  <PublicServer> <Sylf> ugh.
04:24:22  <PublicServer> <Sylf> so majority of pax waiting at sedgewick (station) wants to go to sedgewick halt
04:24:36  <PublicServer> <Sylf> bleh.
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04:24:50  <PublicServer> <Sylf> srsly, I'm done with this game.
04:41:56  <PublicServer> <Anson> we might try a cargodist game with cargo instead of pax next ... moght be quite interesting hw it automatically distributes resources to industries in a firs game :-)
04:42:40  <PublicServer> <Sylf> it didn't work at all for me
04:43:12  <PublicServer> <Sylf> With firs, I want to control how much of some cargo goes to each industries at what interval
04:43:26  <PublicServer> <Sylf> if the game engine starts to control that, that breaks the game for me.
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04:43:33  <PublicServer> <Anson> or even without firs ... building a central station which collects resources from all directions and then distributes it to all directions (imagine forest to mean different kinds of wood, and the sawmills being specialized for some kind of wood only :-)
04:44:23  <PublicServer> <Sylf> I doubt we'll turn on cargodist after this map
04:44:35  <PublicServer> <Sylf> unless someone can actually come up with a good cargodist game plan
04:46:15  <PublicServer> <Sylf> Yeah, that's it.  We can turn cargodist on or off at will, so we can leave that setting up to the plan submitters
04:46:37  <PublicServer> <Anson> it is always the same problem ... we don't want too much micro management, but we also don't want the game to do it all
04:47:16  <PublicServer> <Sylf> coop games never made me bored without cargodist
04:47:34  <PublicServer> <Sylf> and for me, cargodist only added confusion and no fun
04:48:17  <PublicServer> <Anson> and when you have two towns on a big map, it is sad when you build a multi level network, with sbahn, local and ice, and then are either restricted to deliver pax in one direction (sbahn>local>ice>local>sbahn) or only to the top level of the second town (sbahn>local>ice and unload)
04:49:19  <PublicServer> <Sylf> aha, just as I thought.
04:49:30  <PublicServer> <Anson> how much local traffic is there in real towns, compared to long distance ?
04:49:33  <PublicServer> <Sylf> if we switch to maglev ICE, we can build in CL3
04:50:39  <PublicServer> <Anson> cargodist considers every station to be equal, or at most prefer near stations, but can't see any difference between "in town" traffic and long distance :-(
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04:59:49  <PublicServer> <Anson> oh ... did you see how many trains are there between MIN and MMO ?
05:00:31  <PublicServer> <Anson> one single train only ... and thus 5000 pax travel between those towns via OIL
05:01:05  <PublicServer> <Sylf> that's because nobody's actually working on the distribution actively as far as I can tell
05:01:55  <PublicServer> <Anson> of 8500 pax in MMO, 1500 travel directly to MIN, and 3800 via OIL :-(
05:02:17  <PublicServer> <Sylf> I'm really done discussiong about cargo dist.
05:02:19  <PublicServer> *** Sylf has left the game (leaving)
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05:02:44  <PublicServer> <Anson> add maybe 3 more trains between MMO and MIN ?
05:03:50  <PublicServer> <Anson> then i am gone too now ... CU
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08:43:56  <fonsinchen> Cargodist does not consider all stations equal in symmetric mode
08:44:10  <fonsinchen> It will send more cargo to stations which produce more cargo.
08:44:37  <fonsinchen> Also, you should probaby plan for higher capacities on all lines from the start on.
08:45:22  <fonsinchen> i.e. build mesh-like S-Bahn systems, place the stations closer to each other to reduce coverage for each, build also ring- or mesh-like ICE systems
08:45:45  <fonsinchen> Then you should be able to cope with the numbers of passengers.
08:46:07  <fonsinchen> Of course you can always use one of those passenger reduction NewGRFs instead.
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08:47:04  <cronux>  /join
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08:52:11  <fonsinchen> I'm gone for now.
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09:05:57  <Vinnie_nl> @logs
09:05:57  <Webster> #openttdcoop IRC webstuff - IRC Log Viewer -
09:15:44  *** Brumi has joined #openttdcoop
09:34:12  <Ryton> hi Brumi & Vinnie_nl
09:34:18  <Ryton> want2play?
09:34:28  <Vinnie_nl> im kinda busy
09:35:46  <Brumi> hello
09:35:53  <Brumi> well I'm not busy
09:35:57  <Brumi> I'll joi :)
09:36:00  <Ryton> cool
09:36:02  <Ryton> !password
09:36:02  <PublicServer> Ryton: awoken
09:36:02  <Brumi> join*
09:36:36  <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players)
09:36:39  <PublicServer> *** Ryton joined the game
09:36:39  <Ryton> got 10 mins only actually
09:36:46  <Ryton> but later today I will have more time :-)
09:36:48  <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players)
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09:37:03  <PublicServer> <Ryton> cool, 20k for sexsmith
09:37:25  <PublicServer> <Brumi> Taber grew to over 10k from around 100
09:37:43  <PublicServer> <Brumi> it was a town caught between 2 rail lines
09:42:13  <PublicServer> <Ryton> afk for a few mins
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09:55:58  <PublicServer> <Ryton> b
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09:58:12  <PublicServer> <Ryton> ru building?
09:58:18  <PublicServer> <Brumi> yes
09:58:28  <PublicServer> <Brumi> at Writing-on-Stone
09:59:48  <PublicServer> <Ryton> ah a new city :-)
10:04:43  <PublicServer> <Ryton> 10 mins to afk again
10:05:07  <PublicServer> <Brumi> okay
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10:07:25  <PublicServer> <Ryton> I'll be off now
10:07:47  <PublicServer> <Brumi> well I can continue later if you leave
10:07:50  <PublicServer> <Brumi> not a problem
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11:12:22  <PublicServer> <Brumi> I guess you're not here now, are you?
11:14:35  <PublicServer> *** Brumi has left the game (leaving)
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11:15:29  <Ryton> cyta
11:15:32  <Ryton> I am :pm
11:15:36  <Ryton> but on and off
11:15:44  <Ryton> busy with other things atm
11:15:54  <Ryton> gimme 20 mins, then I can devote my time to ottdc again
11:37:21  <Ryton> anyone?
11:42:45  <PublicServer> *** Ryton has left the game (leaving)
11:50:50  <Vinnie_nl> someone
11:51:20  <planetmaker> would. Everyone could. Thus noone did?
11:51:46  <Vinnie_nl> it wasnt me
11:55:18  <Vinnie_nl> Anyhow, if anyone has time could he check this. This tutorial will have mergers we use today and explains alot more about CL, signals, Overflow, Orders. Am i missing some features to include into a tutorial save? I know the table of contents is a mess and im gonna clean it up.
12:04:09  <Brumi> are you intending to replace the old tutorial with this?
12:09:27  <Brumi> here are my remarks:
12:09:55  <Brumi> I don't know if "station walk" is a well known enough term to players who are new to openttdcoop
12:10:17  <Brumi> I think that would use some clarification
12:10:57  <Brumi> and even with the distant join feature "station walk" is quite an obsolete term :)
12:11:37  <Brumi> there are two 3.13's
12:11:52  <Brumi> and the advanced sync comes first
12:11:59  <Brumi> before the standard sync
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12:12:25  <cronux_> Station walk is a well known term.
12:12:41  <cronux_> for players that have been around for a long time
12:13:04  <Brumi> and I think SLH 01 is a bit too close to MSH 03 for a tutorial game
12:13:04  <cronux_> brand new players would not know
12:13:17  <Brumi> brand new players do not come to openttdcoop :)
12:13:26  <cronux_> exactly what i was going to say
12:13:41  <Brumi> yeah it was a tiny thing
12:14:10  <Brumi> but the two hubs being close to each other is a bigger problem imho
12:14:46  <Brumi> probably SLH 01 will be the first openttdcoop-style hub new players will ever see
12:15:48  <Brumi> the introduction of the sideline hub could be moved to SLH 04
12:15:56  <Vinnie_nl> ofcourse
12:16:10  <Vinnie_nl> i just made SLH 01 bigger because traffic demanded it
12:16:17  <Brumi> umm
12:16:34  <Brumi> SLH 04 is not joining an LLRR mainline
12:17:07  <Vinnie_nl> can be made so with a little work
12:17:12  <cronux_> being a noob to openttdcoop myself, I think I am better equipped to tell you that SLH 01 looks very daunting at first
12:20:02  <Brumi> I remember analyzing the SLH in the old tutorial game
12:20:08  <Brumi> took a while to understand it
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12:56:18  <Ryton> Vinnie_nl: you could use the new storybook fucntionality
12:56:32  <Ryton> it has the option to link to an area
12:56:54  <Ryton> and to encorporate goals
12:57:18  <Ryton> thus making a multi-stage tutorial with building action from the student, not just viewing
12:57:32  <Vinnie_nl> yes, but thats not 1.3.1 or stable
12:58:37  <Ryton> 1.4=> should in clude an explanation about splittingpickup & drop as well
13:04:13  <Ryton> maybe start "network design" with the explanation of network plan?
13:04:28  <Ryton> that it should follow a plan made somewhere at the map?
13:06:42  <Ryton> 3.5 => do ->don't
13:07:18  <Ryton> + with 2 bridges/tunnels
13:07:30  <Ryton> then=> than ;-)
13:07:39  <Ryton> sorry :-) I'll give more feedback in pm :-)
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16:20:54  <Ryton> anyone?
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16:39:20  <Brumi> even the PublicServer is afk :D
16:42:51  <planetmaker> he's bad
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16:43:14  <PublicServer> Autopilot engaged
16:43:14  <PublicServer> Loading savegame: '{#openttdcoop} - The Public Server ('
16:43:14  *** ChanServ sets mode: +v PublicServer
16:43:14  *** Webster changes topic to "Cooperative OpenTTD | PSG261 (r25385) | STAGE: building | New players, use @quickstart and !help |"
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17:13:18  <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players)
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17:14:05  <Ryton> & again: anyone? :p
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17:50:02  <Vinnie> !password
17:50:03  <PublicServer> Vinnie: lewder
17:50:20  <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players)
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17:50:21  <PublicServer> *** Vinnie joined the game
17:50:29  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> hello
17:57:11  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> Ryton: wake up, no more afk time fo you
18:05:17  <PublicServer> *** Vinnie has left the game (leaving)
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18:16:30  <Ryton> booh
18:16:49  <PublicServer> <Ryton> ill be here then
18:16:52  <PublicServer> <Ryton> glued to the keyboard :-)-
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18:26:55  <PublicServer> <Ryton> but too late, or are yo ustill around, Vinnie?
18:27:25  <Vinnie_nl> no
18:32:38  <Ryton> not around? :p
18:32:43  <Ryton> or not too late? ;-)
18:43:22  <Ryton> :-(
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19:19:09  <nicfer> !playercount
19:19:09  <PublicServer> nicfer: Number of players: 2 (0 spectators)
19:19:34  <Ryton> hi
19:19:45  <Ryton> try again
19:19:48  <Ryton> !playercount
19:19:49  <PublicServer> Ryton: Number of players: 1 (0 spectators)
19:20:02  <Ryton> PublicServer only updates it after a request :-)
19:20:06  <nicfer> !password
19:20:06  <PublicServer> nicfer: mauled
19:20:09  <Ryton> superb
19:20:24  <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players)
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19:20:28  <PublicServer> <Ryton> welcome
19:20:31  <PublicServer> <nicfer> hi
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19:23:09  <PublicServer> <Ryton> hmm
19:23:13  <PublicServer> <Ryton> this cargo dist graph
19:23:23  <PublicServer> <Ryton> is showing connections that dont have trains :p
19:23:27  <PublicServer> <Ryton> example sex-min
19:23:49  <PublicServer> <Ryton> ah one, nver mind
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19:48:15  <PublicServer> <Ryton> asocial area ready
19:48:50  <PublicServer> *** nicfer has joined spectators
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19:49:06  <PublicServer> <Ryton> thx nicefer :-)
19:49:09  <PublicServer> <nicfer> I'll be busy for a moment
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19:49:47  <PublicServer> <Ryton> oh
19:49:49  <PublicServer> <Ryton> I forgot one connection
19:49:55  <PublicServer> <Ryton> could I plz make it ?
19:49:57  <PublicServer> <Ryton> still
19:50:07  <PublicServer> <Ryton> ah I can?
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19:50:13  <PublicServer> <Ryton> wow building on pauze is on??
19:50:25  <PublicServer> <Ryton> thats new!
19:50:29  <PublicServer> <Ryton> (or uncommon
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20:01:16  <PublicServer> <Ryton> thanks for joining, nicefer
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21:38:18  <fonsinchen> !password
21:38:18  <PublicServer> fonsinchen: tinges
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