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01:07:19 *** LadyHawk- has joined #openttdcoop 01:11:42 *** LadyHawk has quit IRC 01:11:44 *** LadyHawk- is now known as LadyHawk 02:11:07 *** liq3 has joined #openttdcoop 02:46:54 *** MTsPony has quit IRC 04:43:39 *** Hazzard_ has joined #openttdcoop 04:44:52 *** jnelson2288 has joined #openttdcoop 04:45:24 <jnelson2288> !password 04:45:25 <coopserver> jnelson2288: nsdate 04:46:30 <coopserver> *** Game still paused (connecting clients, number of players) 04:46:35 <coopserver> *** jnelson2288 has joined 04:46:36 <coopserver> *** Game still paused (number of players) 04:48:34 <coopserver> *** jnelson2288 has left the game (Leaving) 04:50:02 *** jnelson2288 has quit IRC 04:50:31 *** Hazzard has quit IRC 04:50:40 *** Hazzard_ is now known as Hazzard 05:02:56 *** Hazzard has quit IRC 05:03:43 *** Kernigh has quit IRC 06:42:01 <V453000> @cl 06:42:01 <Webster> cl: Curve Length, mostly used to describe how big a curve must be to let pass trains with a certain TL at full speed, see also: http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Max_Curve_Speed 06:42:28 <V453000> @junctionary 06:42:32 <V453000> !junctionary 07:04:38 <liq3> V453000: hey, how do you deal with CL for like TL 7+ trains? 07:09:51 <planetmaker> liq3, you deal with them like TL7. As longer CL is not necessary, usually. Also we very rarely use so long trains 07:10:03 <liq3> hrm 07:10:11 <liq3> I've seen a lot of PGS games with like TL10. 07:10:41 <liq3> Then again, I rarely see fast trains in coop games. 07:10:52 <liq3> You guys seem to really like your sub 200km/h trains. :p 07:11:19 <liq3> Hrm, so you build 7 long curves? Seems kinda crazy. 07:11:36 <liq3> Hard enough building with 3 long curves. :< 07:18:47 <V453000> use trains which only need CL3 and you are fine :) 07:18:50 <V453000> depends 07:18:57 <V453000> if you are on a flat map, CL10 is easy 07:19:01 <V453000> in hills not so much 07:20:18 <planetmaker> liq3, an easy challenge is hardly a challenge but rather a chore ;) 07:20:35 <liq3> haha. 07:20:49 <liq3> so longer trains = more challenge? that's one way to do it. o.o 07:23:10 <V453000> they are just different 07:23:12 <V453000> depends on the setup 07:23:30 <planetmaker> yup :) 07:23:42 <V453000> making LLL_RRR in TL3 obviously is easier to get smaller then LLL_RRR of TL7 , but the TL7 will probably need more lines later 07:23:51 <V453000> while TL3 will probably need them sooner 07:23:59 <liq3> true 07:24:10 <V453000> I personally use TL5 slugs with CL1.5 07:24:20 <liq3> bleh slugs! :P 07:24:26 <liq3> that's cheating :< 07:24:29 <V453000> TL5 is nice enough in capacity, slugs have great acceleration, and CL1.5 means you can fit anything anywhere 07:24:46 <V453000> it isnt cheating since they have very low capacity when compared to other TL5s :) 07:24:56 <liq3> oh really? 07:25:00 <V453000> to make the slug actually effective is extremely hard 07:25:17 <V453000> almost nobody is able to do that (ie you need extremely dense network to make it efficient) 07:25:41 <V453000> rail strong is generally the easier option 07:26:01 <V453000> which is sub-200kmh as you mentioned :) for good reasons 07:26:13 <V453000> CL3 and superb acceleration with huge capacity is simply raw power 07:26:27 <liq3> hrm 07:28:49 <liq3> Don't understand how slugs have less cargo capacity. 07:29:16 <V453000> ? 07:29:18 <V453000> wagons? 07:29:43 <liq3> what newGRF are slugs in? 07:29:54 <V453000> oh god 07:29:57 <V453000> NUTS 07:29:57 <V453000> :) 07:29:59 <liq3> I'm looking an NUTS 07:30:02 <liq3> but they can use maglev wagons. :P 07:30:05 <liq3> so very confused. 07:30:13 <V453000> -> ? 07:31:00 <liq3> ooohh maglev in NUTS carries less. I never noticed. 07:31:17 <V453000> sure, because faster 07:31:22 <V453000> doesnt make sense to have faster trains carry more 07:31:31 <liq3> it does IRL, but this is a game, so. xD 07:31:34 <V453000> unless they have some other super major disadvantage 07:31:43 <V453000> irl is irrelevant 07:31:45 <liq3> :P 07:32:44 <liq3> does that just make monorail the best hands down in NUTS? 07:33:00 <liq3> hrm maybe not. *looks more* 07:33:06 <V453000> why would it? :) 07:33:12 <V453000> there is nothing "best" in NUTS 07:33:17 <V453000> each of the trains is good with some kind of network 07:33:24 <V453000> see nuts.openttdcoop.org for detailed info 07:34:40 <liq3> hrm how interesting. 07:34:54 <liq3> I'll have to try another YETI/NUTS game armed with my acceleration app. >:) 07:35:34 <V453000> acceleration app? :D 07:36:03 <liq3> yeh. I should add a maglev checkbox, and make another zip. :< 07:36:35 <liq3> https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-IgBWPBDofXV2UyckgzQi1mYTA/view 07:36:36 <Webster> Title: OpenTTD Acceleration.7z - Google Drive (at docs.google.com) 07:36:38 <liq3> it's stupidly large. Silly python. 07:36:50 <liq3> also forgot to put the source code in the zip. 07:37:44 <V453000> I doubt an application will be better than simply observing how trains behave :) 07:37:47 <liq3> http://imgur.com/t9aOmMf 07:37:48 <Webster> Title: imgur: the simple image sharer (at imgur.com) 07:37:50 <liq3> that's what it looks like. 07:38:06 <V453000> yeah, cute 07:38:14 <liq3> Sure, but it helps figuring out how many engines I need. 07:38:15 <liq3> :p 07:38:28 <liq3> Since I play on reddit servers, and they're using silly train sets on server 2. 07:39:29 <V453000> I guess 07:39:40 <V453000> I just simply read the power/TE 07:40:03 <liq3> hrm 07:40:08 <liq3> TE rarely matters tbh. 07:40:22 <liq3> ...well, with base sets anyway. 07:43:22 <V453000> NUTS clearly demonstrates that it matters a lot :) 07:43:36 <V453000> in fact, it is the most important factor, even power is not as important 07:44:14 <liq3> unless you're using maglev. :P 07:46:11 <liq3> oh btw, what on cargo wagons, what's the weight in brackets mean? (e.g. 5t (7t) 07:46:13 <V453000> obviously. :) 07:46:25 <V453000> when full 07:46:31 <liq3> oh ok 07:46:38 <V453000> that would mean your wagon has 2t capacity 07:46:51 <V453000> but be careful, some cargoes are lighter 07:46:53 <V453000> like goods/livestock 07:46:58 <liq3> -.- 07:47:50 <liq3> That's rather confusing. 07:51:15 <liq3> I'm guessing that's specific to each cargo/newGRF? 07:51:46 <V453000> kind of 07:52:44 <liq3> So YETIs are double the weight of goods... 07:52:49 <liq3> and the NUTS trains default to goods. ugh. 07:59:31 <V453000> well there has to be some default :D 08:01:39 *** frischmilch has quit IRC 08:03:36 <V453000> the yeti weight might be subject to change actually 08:04:56 <liq3> Wish something displayed the different weight of goods for those universal trains. :( 08:12:52 <liq3> ...Unsurprisingly, max TE is rarely important for flat tracks with Blind Desire. :P 08:12:56 <liq3> then again that engine is pretty crazy. 08:14:56 <liq3> On the other hand, lower power immediately reduces acceleration. :P 08:17:48 <liq3> hrm. TE matters a lot if the train is heavy tho. 08:19:59 <V453000> TE matters mainly in low speeds 08:20:17 <V453000> which means that a train with high TE but low power will generally shoot forward very quickly from stop, but reach max speed later 08:20:30 <V453000> train with low TE but high power will be lazy at start but will reach max speed sooner 08:20:50 <V453000> in general high TE is better because the train gets to the track quickly 08:21:51 <liq3> nope. 08:21:56 <liq3> Not how it works out. 08:22:06 <liq3> really depends on the train tho... 08:22:11 <liq3> like if max TE is actually limiting the speed. 08:24:10 <V453000> from my observations with NUTS it does happen that way 08:25:50 <liq3> mmmm http://imgur.com/ymhBYqh 08:25:51 <Webster> Title: imgur: the simple image sharer (at imgur.com) 08:26:28 <V453000> look how the trains work 08:26:32 <V453000> instead of looking at graphs :) 08:27:07 <liq3> I prefer doing both. :p 08:27:46 <liq3> Why waste time testing it ingame when a graph tells me much faster? 08:28:14 <V453000> I am not very convinced the graph is correct :D 08:28:22 <liq3> I am. 08:28:37 <liq3> I copied it from OpenTTD source code :P 08:28:51 <liq3> it calculates every tick. 08:29:09 <V453000> what is #cars then? 08:29:14 <V453000> shouldnt there be like weight? 08:29:15 <liq3> number of cars. 08:29:19 <liq3> weight is mass. 08:29:53 <V453000> but how does #cars matter if you dont know their weight 08:29:55 <liq3> suppose I should just say Number of Wagons or something. 08:30:01 <liq3> oh 08:30:04 <liq3> Mass is total mass of the train. 08:30:07 <liq3> including cargo and everything. 08:30:11 <liq3> mass/weight. 08:30:19 <liq3> erm, mass and weight are the same thing in this case 08:30:28 <V453000> sure are but do you give it that value? 08:30:35 <liq3> ? 08:30:39 <liq3> yeh. 08:30:51 <liq3> suppose I should rename mass to weight 08:31:30 <V453000> I dont even see mass :d 08:31:31 <V453000> just #cars 08:31:36 <liq3> ? 08:31:36 <V453000> but oik 08:31:50 <liq3> you ran the app yourself? 08:31:56 <V453000> http://imgur.com/ymhBYqh ? 08:31:57 <Webster> Title: imgur: the simple image sharer (at imgur.com) 08:32:07 <liq3> top left. 08:32:34 <liq3> each row is a train. 08:32:41 <liq3> that's not clear? 08:32:42 <V453000> top left is #cars 08:32:44 <V453000> not mass 08:32:50 <liq3> top right is #cars... 08:32:51 <liq3> ? 08:33:27 <V453000> I just dont see where you tell the train that it weights e.g. 500t 08:33:42 <liq3> first column on the left. 08:34:05 <V453000> oh god left 08:34:07 <V453000> jeez 08:34:08 <V453000> D: 08:34:11 <V453000> ok I see now :D 08:34:15 <V453000> proper monday morning :D sorry 08:34:22 <liq3> LOL 08:34:22 <liq3> xD 08:34:26 <liq3> it's alright. 08:36:44 <V453000> but yeah interesting, I would expect TE to have more beneficial effect at the start 08:37:08 <liq3> I think it's probably a lot more important on slopes. 08:37:11 <liq3> which I haven't added yet. :/ 08:37:23 <o11c> uh, so ... why does the number of wagons matter? 08:37:24 <V453000> at the same time, NUTS trains dont have this similar speed or weight so the difference might come from that as well 08:37:34 <V453000> it doesnt, that was my point, only mass does :) 08:37:36 <liq3> who knows. ask the openTTD devs. 08:38:06 <V453000> I dont really care about the exact mechanism tbh 08:38:16 <V453000> I see what I see, and I only care that my trains are all balanced 08:38:26 <liq3> yeh that's fine. 08:38:31 <liq3> I love numbers myself, so. :P 08:38:48 <liq3> One of those weird people who like math. :] 08:40:09 <V453000> sure, but even with that, calculating which train is useful when isnt nearly so simple 08:40:26 <liq3> sure 08:40:27 <V453000> e.g. in the beginnings, I counted capacities simply by speed -> capacity 08:40:29 <liq3> I just consider this more information. :P 08:40:38 <V453000> e.g. 100kmh train would have 40, 200 kmh 20, 400 kmh 10 08:40:44 <liq3> instead of guessing how a train will accerelation with each engine, I can plot it. 08:40:47 <V453000> what I discovered though that this is completely non-linear 08:40:56 <V453000> mhm +- :) 08:41:08 <liq3> oh really? 08:41:13 <liq3> so faster trains result in less density? 08:41:18 <V453000> not even that 08:41:26 <V453000> if a fast train is very strong, density is still fine 08:41:41 <liq3> oh, so trains that accelerate slower relative to top speed? 08:41:55 <V453000> but for example NUTS trains are now 22, 30, and 35 capacity for the main train kinds 08:42:00 <V453000> which is like 200, 300, and 400 kmh 08:42:01 <liq3> yeh. 08:42:10 <V453000> (e.g. 22 isnt half of 35) 08:42:16 <liq3> :P 08:42:26 <V453000> both of which accelerate about the same way 08:42:43 <V453000> and I am not even mentioning loading speed, but that does not matter much on longer trips 08:42:50 <V453000> just makes station design eventually large 08:43:05 <liq3> hrm 08:43:14 <liq3> the thing is too, that a 2x faster train should get there 2x faster. 08:43:23 <liq3> so even with half density, it's still same cargo throughput. 08:43:37 <liq3> I guess that really depends on the SLHs and acceleration though eh. 08:43:42 <V453000> real tests show otherwise :) 08:44:02 <liq3> well, i'm assuming same cargo amount. 08:44:02 <liq3> :P 08:44:10 <liq3> obviously if it carries 25% less cargo.... 08:44:31 <V453000> well 30% less cargo isnt that much if the speed is double 08:44:35 <V453000> and acceleration is similar 08:44:41 <liq3> hrm 08:44:43 <V453000> but apparently is very low already 08:44:58 <V453000> obviously nuts trains arent so simple to have "similar" acceleration either 08:44:59 <liq3> now I want to convert my SP map to slower trains and see what happens. xD 08:45:05 <liq3> slower but higher accel trains. 08:45:06 *** user has joined #openttdcoop 08:45:39 <liq3> yeh. 08:45:43 *** user is now known as Guest670 08:45:50 <V453000> depends a ton on your network 08:46:11 <liq3> those monorail express engines have huge power. 08:46:14 <V453000> but better acceleration has massive effect, yes 08:46:24 <V453000> yes the monorail intercity are majorly overpowered atm 08:46:28 <liq3> uh, it's TL3 CL3 with proper priorities and stuff. 08:46:31 <liq3> not perfect, but pretty close 08:46:33 <V453000> are unmatched regarding pax 08:46:41 <liq3> right. 08:47:17 <V453000> in general I just have one train design per network style 08:47:38 <liq3> yeh. 08:48:06 <liq3> you should see server 2 for reddit. 08:48:13 <liq3> the newgrfs and settigs are evil. :( 08:48:36 <V453000> I can imagine 08:48:41 *** Guest670 has quit IRC 08:48:43 <V453000> put everything together, it will be best 08:49:23 <liq3> they have like classic American train sets and stuff. 08:49:27 <liq3> and 3x cargo weight. 08:49:34 <liq3> and very mountainous terrain. 08:49:38 <V453000> with "realistic" train sets, it is simply that way, they are not complete, so you need to mix them 08:49:45 <liq3> yeh. 08:49:55 <V453000> weight is generally pointless, just wrecks fast trains and makes strong trains the only option 08:50:00 <V453000> not much else 08:50:04 <liq3> yeh that's how it works in this. 08:50:22 <liq3> 5000hp engine can't even get up a mountain if it slows down. 08:50:28 <liq3> erm, TL7. 08:50:33 <V453000> yes that is typical 08:50:44 <V453000> logically there isnt really anything else it would impact 08:50:51 <V453000> power/TE simply becomes the only important factor 08:50:56 <liq3> they cost so much don't want to add more then one engine too :P 08:51:02 <liq3> yeh. 08:51:05 <V453000> OR you have to be extremely careful about not sending full trains uphill 08:51:13 <liq3> yeh. 08:51:18 <liq3> very hard to avoid with theri terrain settings. xD 08:51:19 <V453000> high costs, wrong wrong :) 08:51:31 <liq3> ? 08:51:39 <liq3> It's a fun challenge tho. 08:51:47 <V453000> well you dont have to avoid the terrain entirely, just making climbs slower is fine 08:51:58 <V453000> more costs = more waiting 08:52:04 <liq3> haha 08:52:06 <V453000> you do the same in the game, your choices are not really influenced 08:52:12 <liq3> only matters at the start. quickly get so rich anyway 08:52:18 <liq3> yeh. 08:52:25 <liq3> The game isn't balanced at all for cost to matter. 08:52:41 <V453000> exactly 08:52:52 <V453000> building matters 08:53:05 <liq3> heh. 08:53:06 <V453000> so having the money to actually build stuff instead of sitting, watching, and waiting, is kind of sensible 08:53:18 <liq3> imagine if the game was actually competitive. You could lower the money you get from goods to out-buy other companies. :p 08:53:30 <liq3> yeh. 08:55:51 <V453000> the game doesnt really have any valid numbers to compete on :) 08:56:00 <V453000> using very trivial approaches usually wins in raw numbers 08:56:23 <V453000> except ultra long/advanced games which cant quite be competitive :D 08:57:09 <V453000> unless you have whole teams of people in companies 08:57:17 <V453000> or each players plays for a year :D 08:57:56 <liq3> I have a mate who used to do that apperently. 08:58:06 <liq3> I think in college? Teams of people competiting against each other in OpenTTD 08:58:07 <liq3> lol. 08:58:12 <liq3> competeting* 08:58:57 <liq3> btw, monorail vs electric FAST trains in NUTS, for TL3, monorail is completely superior. 08:58:57 <liq3> :P 08:59:06 <liq3> they have almost same accel curve, but monorali has higher top speed. 08:59:10 <liq3> monorail* 09:00:03 <liq3> tho I suppose the lower cargo matters eh? 09:00:12 <V453000> a LOT :) 09:00:24 <liq3> it's only 30 vs 35 tho. :p 09:00:29 <V453000> a LOT :) 09:00:41 <liq3> 120 vs 140. >>> 09:00:43 <liq3> >.> 09:00:46 <V453000> that is a lot 09:00:58 <V453000> also the weight of the vehicles AND the cargo means you can abuse downhills 09:01:01 <liq3> when you have 256 vs 341 top speed? 09:01:07 <V453000> yes 09:01:28 <V453000> are you sure TL3 fast train has the stats you think it does? 09:01:37 <V453000> (did you build the train or read it in the purchase menu?) 09:01:45 <liq3> 17% more cargo, but 33% faster. 09:01:50 <liq3> (erm if you get what I mean) 09:01:56 <liq3> top speed wise. 09:02:04 <liq3> built the train. 09:02:08 <liq3> did cargo weight manually tho 09:02:35 <V453000> it is suspicious that the TL3 would be efficient in mono fast 09:02:48 <V453000> but I will check later, lunch now 09:02:48 <V453000> cya 09:02:51 <liq3> seeya 09:03:47 <liq3> I think it's because mono fast gets power and TE bonuses per train unit. 09:06:42 *** chester_ has joined #openttdcoop 10:04:12 <planetmaker> !lin64 10:04:17 <planetmaker> !dl lin64 10:04:17 <coopserver> planetmaker: http://binaries.openttd.org/nightlies/trunk/r26920/openttd-trunk-r26920-linux-generic-amd64.tar.xz 10:04:25 <V453000> liq3: it does but it starts very low so short trains should be almost useless 10:04:31 <V453000> I might have changed that sometime lately though yeah 10:06:59 *** Jam35_ is now known as Jam35 10:21:16 <liq3> oh, you made NUTS? 10:24:05 <V453000> yes ? :D 10:25:45 <V453000> I thought you knew that 10:30:08 <liq3> nope XD 10:30:21 <liq3> You have stats for all the engines btw? 10:31:07 <liq3> I'm curious how you balance them. 10:32:19 <V453000> stats are just in the game 10:32:21 <liq3> Also, is it intentional that in YETI you only need one of each non-YETI industry? 10:32:22 <V453000> or in the code 10:32:38 <V453000> balance is purely by eye and game observation 10:32:42 <liq3> ok 10:32:48 <V453000> in YETI it is a bit intentional 10:33:07 <V453000> like temporarily intentional - future production mechanism will work differently, motivating to use multiple industries 10:33:10 <liq3> e.g. you only need one iron ore mine. 10:33:18 <V453000> kind of yes 10:33:20 <liq3> hrm 10:33:24 <V453000> you will always only "need" one 10:33:27 <liq3> nono 10:33:33 <liq3> I mean there's no advantage last I checked to having two. 10:33:38 <liq3> your math doesn't encourage it. :P 10:33:41 <V453000> no, there isnt any yet 10:33:43 <V453000> as I said :) 10:33:44 <liq3> ok 10:33:47 <liq3> no worries then. 10:33:47 <V453000> production mechanisms will change 10:34:16 <liq3> I swear I read you wanted people to use more then one so. 10:34:16 <V453000> e.g. the more yetis you deliver, the less efficient they will get 10:34:21 <liq3> thought it a bit odd it doesn't encourage that. 10:34:25 <liq3> yeh. 10:34:33 <V453000> yeah because coding the production mechanism is not exactly easy 10:34:48 <V453000> and I just coded the thing to work at least somehow, not to be ultimately final before making 0.0.1 :) 10:34:48 <liq3> really? hrm 10:34:54 <liq3> ah 10:35:16 <V453000> for me production mechanism is hell. 10:35:36 <V453000> Sylf is now helping me with the coding (he does all coding atm) ... he seems to understand it :D i dont 10:35:37 <V453000> at all 10:35:43 <liq3> haha ok 10:35:55 <liq3> yeh I peeked into the source code to figure out how it works 10:35:58 <V453000> and he is actually working on that very currently, so the changes might be in 0.0.9 :) 10:36:00 <liq3> since I couldn't find any other info. 10:36:08 <V453000> source of openttd or yeti? 10:36:09 <liq3> cool. 10:36:11 <liq3> YETI 10:36:14 <V453000> ah :) 10:36:15 <V453000> yeah 10:36:20 <liq3> yeh the scaling was linear... 10:36:30 <V453000> indeed 10:36:43 <V453000> the biggest issue atm was to get the animations to actually work 10:36:48 <V453000> took 2 months (: 10:36:48 <liq3> hehe 10:36:56 <liq3> they look very cool. 10:37:02 <V453000> but now the infrastructure is done so can actually make anything now 10:37:13 <liq3> they don't even look that out of place with the 8bpp gfx 10:37:19 <V453000> I am creating the model of a new industry right now, with more details for everything later 10:37:29 <V453000> yeah they fit quite well 10:37:41 <liq3> ...YETI is going to be terrifying when you get that town code done. 10:38:29 <liq3> having to grow towns to grow industries! my god. 10:38:58 <V453000> yeah ... there are some limitations what newGRF can actually do with towns, but it will be interesting 10:39:10 <V453000> also, this will probably be possible to turn off by parameters 10:39:17 <liq3> haha. 10:39:22 <liq3> I wanted it as complicated as possible. ;] 10:40:04 <liq3> I look forward to trying to connect every industry and town with a single mainline. 10:40:06 <V453000> the most complex will probably be that worker yards produce based on 1. delivery of food, 2. delivery of BDMT, and 3. delivery of MAIL 10:40:07 <liq3> or other such craziness. 10:40:15 <liq3> o.o 10:40:23 <V453000> which would mean that you need to take serious care about the town to deliver TOWN products to the worker yard 10:40:31 <V453000> or passengers/mail, doesnt really matter 10:40:41 <V453000> point is that you dont just build roads and wait till town grows 10:40:44 <V453000> you really CARE about the town 10:40:57 <liq3> hrm 10:41:30 <V453000> but as I said 10:41:33 <V453000> this will be possible to turn off 10:41:49 <V453000> more specifically: 4X Worker Yard 3rd cargo: none / pass / mail 10:42:06 <V453000> although even that does not make all difficulties gone 10:42:15 <V453000> as towns get bigger, they need more food 10:42:22 <V453000> if you dont give them enough food, no bonus workers 10:42:27 <V453000> same for bdmt 10:42:28 <liq3> I thought you were going to make worker yards based on town pop. 10:42:49 <V453000> they kind of are 10:42:59 <V453000> the requirements and relations they make to BDMT and FOOD are done that way 10:43:01 <liq3> I suppose if you make them require passengers, they basically are eh? 10:43:10 <V453000> then, if 3rd cargo are none, they are linked directly 10:43:11 <V453000> yeah 10:43:11 <liq3> bigger town = more passengers. 10:43:13 <V453000> exactly 10:43:50 <liq3> so Food BDMT going to town or worker yard? 10:43:50 <V453000> the trick is, that the size isnt just about your town size, but also about your proper service of the town 10:43:57 <V453000> worker yard 10:44:02 <liq3> hrm 10:44:06 <V453000> cant make buildings accept that without editing buildings 10:44:11 <liq3> ah. 10:44:12 <V453000> which I dont quite want to do in industry newgrf 10:44:26 <liq3> how does citybuilder do it? 10:44:43 <liq3> oh, unless towns accept goods by default 10:44:43 <liq3> oh they do. 10:44:44 <liq3> nvm then. 10:45:06 <liq3> I guess FIRS changes towns to accept food? 10:45:20 <V453000> I believe FIRS has shops among buildings which accept taht 10:45:24 <V453000> but the shop is industry 10:45:24 <liq3> ok 10:45:36 <V453000> citybuilder is a game script, that has totally different possibilities than newGRF 10:46:19 <V453000> what YETI boils down to is basically creating the most interesting link to towns while staying in the bounds of one industry newGRF alone 10:46:40 <liq3> ok 10:47:02 <liq3> so yeh you basically require PAX to improve workers. 10:47:03 <liq3> interesting. 10:47:25 <V453000> basically yes 10:47:32 <liq3> I look forward to the horrifying games you coop guys create with this. :P 10:47:38 <V453000> hm :) 10:47:52 <liq3> The YETI ones i've seen already I didn't find that great. 10:48:02 <liq3> the PGS ones. 10:48:10 <liq3> had seperate lines for the workers. 10:48:10 <V453000> there was one which was quite nice 10:48:14 <V453000> yeah 10:48:23 <liq3> and, didn't deliver anything to worker yards. thought it was pretty lame 10:48:25 <liq3> :p 10:48:32 <V453000> I think it did deliver to worker yard 10:48:37 <V453000> through transfer presumably 10:48:38 <liq3> I might not have seen that one 10:49:35 <V453000> is possible :) 10:50:10 <V453000> regardless, I am not sure if the networking effect is somehow revolutionary 10:50:19 <V453000> the only thing it really creates is more dynamic on sidelines 10:50:42 <V453000> but I would definitely not expect anything super different 10:50:50 <V453000> big mainlines are still going to stay big mainlines 10:50:57 <liq3> heh true. 10:51:02 <V453000> you still deliver from point A to point B 10:51:04 <liq3> It's definately a lot more interesting then base OpenTTD tho. :p 10:51:10 <V453000> it is just different 10:51:15 <liq3> hrm 10:51:16 <V453000> original industries are just fine 10:51:40 <V453000> at the current YETI form you could even say that original industries are a lot better 10:51:49 <V453000> because original industries allow you to do any kind of game 10:51:57 <V453000> YETI industries atm make you play only one type of game 10:52:00 <V453000> one industry of each, done 10:52:04 <liq3> yeh. 10:52:28 <V453000> I am not sure how much is linking industries to towns allow for diversity 10:52:30 <V453000> probably not veyr much 10:52:37 <V453000> it will be fun and interesting because you have to do everything at once 10:52:50 <liq3> That's what I was thinking. 10:52:53 <V453000> but at the same time it will not allow for terrible amounts of variety 10:52:56 <liq3> how do you manage pax/industries at the same time. 10:52:57 <liq3> :p 10:53:12 <V453000> that is players choice :) 10:53:19 <V453000> you can overload one town with a ton of food/bdmt 10:53:23 <V453000> or grow the town 10:53:31 <V453000> if you do both you get the most obviously, by far 10:53:38 <V453000> or you do optimal way and do some of each 10:53:45 <V453000> medium towns with ok supply 10:54:37 <V453000> which will obviously be the best method, defined by the $math 10:55:00 <liq3> yeh 10:57:47 <V453000> regardless, all that is still work in progress and the final state might be a bit different :P 10:58:08 <liq3> ok 10:58:15 <V453000> a lot of the things you can read here https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/yeti 10:58:22 <V453000> some might not be most up to date 10:58:23 <liq3> yeh I've seen that. :] 10:58:26 <V453000> k :) 11:51:49 <Djanxy> !password 11:51:49 <coopserver> Djanxy: client 11:52:02 <coopserver> *** Game still paused (connecting clients, number of players) 11:52:04 <coopserver> *** Djanxy has joined 11:52:05 <coopserver> *** Game still paused (number of players) 11:52:47 <coopserver> *** Djanxy has joined company #1 11:52:48 <coopserver> *** Game unpaused (number of players) 11:55:47 <V453000> smash 12:06:05 <coopserver> *** Djanxy has left the game (Leaving) 12:06:06 <coopserver> *** Game paused (number of players) 12:09:25 *** KWKdesign has quit IRC 12:09:45 *** KWKdesign has joined #openttdcoop 12:22:24 *** Djanxy has quit IRC 12:58:35 *** KWKdesign has quit IRC 12:59:00 *** KWKdesign has joined #openttdcoop 15:01:00 *** Hazzard__ has joined #openttdcoop 15:01:25 *** Hazzard__ is now known as Hazzard 15:49:42 *** ODM has joined #openttdcoop 15:49:42 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o ODM 15:55:37 *** Hazzard has quit IRC 15:58:41 *** Mucht has quit IRC 16:38:31 *** MTsPony has joined #openttdcoop 16:56:06 *** JohnK has quit IRC 17:11:25 *** liq3 has quit IRC 17:15:03 <Hobbyte> !info 17:15:03 <coopserver> Hobbyte: #openttdcoop - Public Server (www.openttdcoop.org), Version: r26920, date: May 01 2404, map size: 512x512, address: publicserver-new.openttdcoop.org:3983 17:16:12 <Hobbyte> !download win64 17:16:12 <coopserver> Hobbyte: http://binaries.openttd.org/nightlies/trunk/r26920/openttd-trunk-r26920-windows-win64.zip 17:22:45 <Hobbyte> !password 17:22:45 <coopserver> Hobbyte: though 17:22:55 <coopserver> *** Game still paused (connecting clients, number of players) 17:22:58 <coopserver> *** _Hobbyte_ has joined 17:22:59 <coopserver> *** Game still paused (number of players) 17:25:35 <coopserver> *** _Hobbyte_ has joined company #1 17:25:36 <coopserver> *** Game unpaused (number of players) 17:27:06 <Hobbyte> wow you guys make some impressive stuff 17:28:19 <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> i have no idea what half of this stuff does, but it's impressive just watching 17:30:13 <V453000> heyo 17:30:23 <Hobbyte> hey 17:30:28 <V453000> !password 17:30:28 <coopserver> V453000: though 17:30:41 <V453000> welcome to hell :) 17:30:46 <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> don't worry i'm not breaking anything, i promise 17:30:54 <coopserver> *** Game paused (connecting clients) 17:30:56 <coopserver> *** V453000 has joined 17:30:57 <coopserver> *** Game unpaused (connecting clients) 17:30:58 <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> just watching 17:31:02 <coopserver> <V453000> its fine :) 17:31:26 <coopserver> <V453000> this game is very different from the typical networking 17:31:38 <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> i see that 17:31:40 <coopserver> <V453000> based on a lot of wtf 17:32:01 <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> i always thought you guys were making super realistic stuff 17:32:08 <hylje_> never 17:32:12 <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> but you seem to be going for absolute efficiency 17:32:18 <coopserver> <V453000> we make what makes sense 17:32:25 <coopserver> <V453000> you can build anything, but it has to work 17:32:27 <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> makes sense to you maybe ;) 17:32:35 <coopserver> <V453000> and anything is very broad in terms of openttd :) 17:32:37 <hylje_> coop is about exploiting openttd to its logical extremes 17:32:41 <coopserver> <V453000> things can be beautiful, things can be nice 17:32:48 <hylje_> not to engage in miniature railroading 17:33:18 <coopserver> <V453000> realistic people are the direct opposite, they "disallow" things to be built just because they call it "ugly" or "wrong" 17:33:25 <coopserver> <V453000> while we use the only valid criteria - if it works 17:33:35 <coopserver> <V453000> rest is "do whatever you like" 17:33:37 <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> well, i wasn't meaning strictly realism 17:33:48 <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> i dunno 17:33:51 <coopserver> <V453000> well we both know what "Realistic" networks in OpenTTD look like 17:37:12 <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> his logic stuff is crazy 17:37:45 <coopserver> <V453000> it can be very divert but most of the things are based on one idea 17:38:33 <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> yeah i'm watching how these stations work and it's starting to make sense 17:38:48 <V453000> @srnw 17:38:48 <Webster> srnw: Self-regulating Network, see also: http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/SRNW 17:39:08 <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> i've been browsing through pages on the wiki 17:39:13 <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> some of those junctions blow my mind 17:39:37 <V453000> @ABR09 17:39:38 <Webster> Advanced Building Revue 09: Self Regulating Stations at #openttdcoop - http://blog.openttdcoop.org/2011/01/21/advanced-building-revue-09-self-regulating-stations/ 17:39:38 <V453000> yeah :) 17:40:12 <V453000> hm I dont think we have a basic explanation on the SRNW station 17:40:14 <V453000> regardless 17:40:23 <V453000> if you want to se the MAX, see @@pzg2013 17:40:24 <Webster> Dont Try This At Home: ProZone Game 2013 at #openttdcoop - http://blog.openttdcoop.org/2013/08/06/dont-try-this-at-home-prozone-game-2013 17:41:06 <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> WOW 17:41:41 <V453000> this is my last (so far) mostly singleplayer game, the contents are unmatched in many regards 17:47:07 <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> oh i see 17:47:17 <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> you don't even have separate trains per cargo type, they just autorefit 17:47:47 <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> at least that's how i interpret that network design diagram 17:47:53 <coopserver> <V453000> it isnt exactly autorefit (autorefit is in station) 17:47:57 <coopserver> <V453000> but yeah refit by orders automatically 17:48:28 <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> and each of those cargo types in the diagram represents a "pickup/dropoff loop" 17:48:47 <coopserver> <V453000> quite yeah 17:50:34 <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> what's the reason for using synchronized stations and dummy trains? 17:50:45 <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> instead of just letting them come in and fill up whenever they can? 17:50:57 <coopserver> <V453000> big reason, you need to make sure they can load 100% 17:51:07 <coopserver> <V453000> if they didnt, they would just pass through empty 17:51:09 <coopserver> <V453000> -> bad 17:51:16 <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> ohhhhh 17:51:31 <coopserver> <V453000> that is why the dummy trains are always same capacity as the loading trains 17:51:33 <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> the dummy train is large enough that it can hold enough cargo for all 4 trains 17:51:38 <coopserver> <V453000> yeah 17:51:42 <coopserver> <V453000> usually exactly 1:1 17:52:03 <coopserver> <V453000> or just a tiny bit less, if we are sure that there will be enough cargo to load in the meantime when it travels etc 17:52:12 <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> and you gate it so they won't pathfind off the main line to get to the station unless there's enough cargo, because the waiting bays are full 17:52:59 <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> iiiiinteresting 17:56:01 *** Progman has joined #openttdcoop 17:56:27 <Sylf> I tried to make a few new SRNW station designs in this game 17:56:47 <Sylf> I'm pretty happy how they came out :) 17:56:56 <V453000> yeah basically that, except pathing is same, you just hold them by the signals :P 17:56:58 <V453000> Sylf: which ones? 17:57:15 <Sylf> never tried flip flops for station control before 17:57:31 <Sylf> I tried couple different PBS based controls 17:58:13 <coopserver> <V453000> the transfer ones? 17:58:24 <Sylf> flip flops are for transfers 17:58:42 <Sylf> thereś one pbs one in livestock area, north end 17:59:02 <Sylf> there's anoter style of pbs stuff in the oil area 17:59:27 <coopserver> <V453000> that one looks interesting 17:59:38 <Sylf> livestock one is kinda wtf 17:59:38 <coopserver> <V453000> well it just shows there are many options :D 17:59:50 <Sylf> the way pre signal behave there was unexpected 18:00:43 <Sylf> I wanted to get away from the same all designs 18:00:53 <coopserver> <V453000> :) which is good 18:01:30 <Sylf> designing the train counter to control srnw was fun too 18:01:51 <Sylf> southwest corner 18:01:54 <coopserver> <V453000> what does the counter influence? 18:02:39 <Sylf> it adds/subtracts the counter when it detects feeder/mainline trains passing the detection gate 18:03:02 <V453000> well sure but does the counter have any use? 18:04:12 <Sylf> it balances the feeder and mainline trains using the station 18:04:24 <Sylf> within the limit of the size of the counter 18:05:20 <coopserver> <V453000> ahh 18:05:22 <coopserver> <V453000> right :) 18:05:36 <Sylf> when there aren't enough ML trains coming to that station, the feeder trains can drop off stuff, up to 6 trains or something 18:05:45 <coopserver> <V453000> I can see that yeah :) 18:25:04 <coopserver> *** V453000 has left the game (Leaving) 18:40:19 *** dxtr has joined #openttdcoop 19:16:11 <coopserver> *** _Hobbyte_ has left the game (Leaving) 19:16:12 <coopserver> *** Game paused (number of players) 19:34:35 *** luaduck_zzz is now known as luaduck 19:55:20 *** Mazth has quit IRC 20:16:33 *** dxtr_ has joined #openttdcoop 20:18:53 *** tycoondemon has quit IRC 20:19:07 *** tycoondemon has joined #openttdcoop 20:20:29 *** ODM has quit IRC 20:22:45 *** dxtr has quit IRC 20:51:13 <Hobbyte> !password 20:51:13 <coopserver> Hobbyte: values 20:51:18 <coopserver> *** Game still paused (connecting clients, number of players) 20:51:21 <coopserver> *** _Hobbyte_ has joined 20:51:22 <coopserver> *** Game still 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