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Log for #openttdcoop on 6th October 2014:
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06:42:01  <V453000> @cl
06:42:01  <Webster> cl: Curve Length, mostly used to describe how big a curve must be to let pass trains with a certain TL at full speed, see also: http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Max_Curve_Speed
06:42:28  <V453000> @junctionary
06:42:32  <V453000> !junctionary
07:04:38  <liq3> V453000: hey, how do you deal with CL for like TL 7+ trains?
07:09:51  <planetmaker> liq3, you deal with them like TL7. As longer CL is not necessary, usually. Also we very rarely use so long trains
07:10:03  <liq3> hrm
07:10:11  <liq3> I've seen a lot of PGS games with like TL10.
07:10:41  <liq3> Then again, I rarely see fast trains in coop games.
07:10:52  <liq3> You guys seem to really like your sub 200km/h trains. :p
07:11:19  <liq3> Hrm, so you build 7 long curves? Seems kinda crazy.
07:11:36  <liq3> Hard enough building with 3 long curves. :<
07:18:47  <V453000> use trains which only need CL3 and you are fine :)
07:18:50  <V453000> depends
07:18:57  <V453000> if you are on a flat map, CL10 is easy
07:19:01  <V453000> in hills not so much
07:20:18  <planetmaker> liq3, an easy challenge is hardly a challenge but rather a chore ;)
07:20:35  <liq3> haha.
07:20:49  <liq3> so longer trains = more challenge? that's one way to do it. o.o
07:23:10  <V453000> they are just different
07:23:12  <V453000> depends on the setup
07:23:30  <planetmaker> yup :)
07:23:42  <V453000> making LLL_RRR in TL3 obviously is easier to get smaller then LLL_RRR of TL7 , but the TL7 will probably need more lines later
07:23:51  <V453000> while TL3 will probably need them sooner
07:23:59  <liq3> true
07:24:10  <V453000> I personally use TL5 slugs with CL1.5
07:24:20  <liq3> bleh slugs! :P
07:24:26  <liq3> that's cheating :<
07:24:29  <V453000> TL5 is nice enough in capacity, slugs have great acceleration, and CL1.5 means you can fit anything anywhere
07:24:46  <V453000> it isnt cheating since they have very low capacity when compared to other TL5s :)
07:24:56  <liq3> oh really?
07:25:00  <V453000> to make the slug actually effective is extremely hard
07:25:17  <V453000> almost nobody is able to do that (ie you need extremely dense network to make it efficient)
07:25:41  <V453000> rail strong is generally the easier option
07:26:01  <V453000> which is sub-200kmh as you mentioned :) for good reasons
07:26:13  <V453000> CL3 and superb acceleration with huge capacity is simply raw power
07:26:27  <liq3> hrm
07:28:49  <liq3> Don't understand how slugs have less cargo capacity.
07:29:16  <V453000> ?
07:29:18  <V453000> wagons?
07:29:43  <liq3> what newGRF are slugs in?
07:29:54  <V453000> oh god
07:29:57  <V453000> NUTS
07:29:57  <V453000> :)
07:29:59  <liq3> I'm looking an NUTS
07:30:02  <liq3> but they can use maglev wagons. :P
07:30:05  <liq3> so very confused.
07:30:13  <V453000> -> ?
07:31:00  <liq3> ooohh maglev in NUTS carries less. I never noticed.
07:31:17  <V453000> sure, because faster
07:31:22  <V453000> doesnt make sense to have faster trains carry more
07:31:31  <liq3> it does IRL, but this is a game, so. xD
07:31:34  <V453000> unless they have some other super major disadvantage
07:31:43  <V453000> irl is irrelevant
07:31:45  <liq3> :P
07:32:44  <liq3> does that just make monorail the best hands down in NUTS?
07:33:00  <liq3> hrm maybe not. *looks more*
07:33:06  <V453000> why would it? :)
07:33:12  <V453000> there is nothing "best" in NUTS
07:33:17  <V453000> each of the trains is good with some kind of network
07:33:24  <V453000> see nuts.openttdcoop.org for  detailed info
07:34:40  <liq3> hrm how interesting.
07:34:54  <liq3> I'll have to try another YETI/NUTS game armed with my acceleration app. >:)
07:35:34  <V453000> acceleration app? :D
07:36:03  <liq3> yeh. I should add a maglev checkbox, and make another zip. :<
07:36:35  <liq3> https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-IgBWPBDofXV2UyckgzQi1mYTA/view
07:36:36  <Webster> Title: OpenTTD Acceleration.7z - Google Drive (at docs.google.com)
07:36:38  <liq3> it's stupidly large. Silly python.
07:36:50  <liq3> also forgot to put the source code in the zip.
07:37:44  <V453000> I doubt an application will be better than simply observing how trains behave :)
07:37:47  <liq3> http://imgur.com/t9aOmMf
07:37:48  <Webster> Title: imgur: the simple image sharer (at imgur.com)
07:37:50  <liq3> that's what it looks like.
07:38:06  <V453000> yeah, cute
07:38:14  <liq3> Sure, but it helps figuring out how many engines I need.
07:38:15  <liq3> :p
07:38:28  <liq3> Since I play on reddit servers, and they're using silly train sets on server 2.
07:39:29  <V453000> I guess
07:39:40  <V453000> I just simply read the power/TE
07:40:03  <liq3> hrm
07:40:08  <liq3> TE rarely matters tbh.
07:40:22  <liq3> ...well, with base sets anyway.
07:43:22  <V453000> NUTS clearly demonstrates that it matters a lot :)
07:43:36  <V453000> in fact, it is the most important factor, even power is not as important
07:44:14  <liq3> unless you're using maglev. :P
07:46:11  <liq3> oh btw, what on cargo wagons, what's the weight in brackets mean? (e.g. 5t (7t)
07:46:13  <V453000> obviously. :)
07:46:25  <V453000> when full
07:46:31  <liq3> oh ok
07:46:38  <V453000> that would mean your wagon has 2t capacity
07:46:51  <V453000> but be careful, some cargoes are lighter
07:46:53  <V453000> like goods/livestock
07:46:58  <liq3> -.-
07:47:50  <liq3> That's rather confusing.
07:51:15  <liq3> I'm guessing that's specific to each cargo/newGRF?
07:51:46  <V453000> kind of
07:52:44  <liq3> So YETIs are double the weight of goods...
07:52:49  <liq3> and the NUTS trains default to goods. ugh.
07:59:31  <V453000> well there has to be some default :D
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08:03:36  <V453000> the yeti weight might be subject to change actually
08:04:56  <liq3> Wish something displayed the different weight of goods for those universal trains. :(
08:12:52  <liq3> ...Unsurprisingly, max TE is rarely important for flat tracks with Blind Desire. :P
08:12:56  <liq3> then again that engine is pretty crazy.
08:14:56  <liq3> On the other hand, lower power immediately reduces acceleration. :P
08:17:48  <liq3> hrm. TE matters a lot if the train is heavy tho.
08:19:59  <V453000> TE matters mainly in low speeds
08:20:17  <V453000> which means that a train with high TE but low power will generally shoot forward very quickly from stop, but reach max speed later
08:20:30  <V453000> train with low TE but high power will be lazy at start but will reach max speed sooner
08:20:50  <V453000> in general high TE is better because the train gets to the track quickly
08:21:51  <liq3> nope.
08:21:56  <liq3> Not how it works out.
08:22:06  <liq3> really depends on the train tho...
08:22:11  <liq3> like if max TE is actually limiting the speed.
08:24:10  <V453000> from my observations with NUTS it does happen that way
08:25:50  <liq3> mmmm http://imgur.com/ymhBYqh
08:25:51  <Webster> Title: imgur: the simple image sharer (at imgur.com)
08:26:28  <V453000> look how the trains work
08:26:32  <V453000> instead of looking at graphs :)
08:27:07  <liq3> I prefer doing both. :p
08:27:46  <liq3> Why waste time testing it ingame when a graph tells me much faster?
08:28:14  <V453000> I am not very convinced the graph is correct :D
08:28:22  <liq3> I am.
08:28:37  <liq3> I copied it from OpenTTD source code :P
08:28:51  <liq3> it calculates every tick.
08:29:09  <V453000> what is #cars then?
08:29:14  <V453000> shouldnt there be like weight?
08:29:15  <liq3> number of cars.
08:29:19  <liq3> weight is mass.
08:29:53  <V453000> but how does #cars matter if you  dont know their weight
08:29:55  <liq3> suppose I should just say Number of Wagons or something.
08:30:01  <liq3> oh
08:30:04  <liq3> Mass is total mass of the train.
08:30:07  <liq3> including cargo and everything.
08:30:11  <liq3> mass/weight.
08:30:19  <liq3> erm, mass and weight are the same thing in this case
08:30:28  <V453000> sure are but do you give it that value?
08:30:35  <liq3> ?
08:30:39  <liq3> yeh.
08:30:51  <liq3> suppose I should rename mass to weight
08:31:30  <V453000> I dont even see mass :d
08:31:31  <V453000> just #cars
08:31:36  <liq3> ?
08:31:36  <V453000> but oik
08:31:50  <liq3> you ran the app yourself?
08:31:56  <V453000> http://imgur.com/ymhBYqh ?
08:31:57  <Webster> Title: imgur: the simple image sharer (at imgur.com)
08:32:07  <liq3> top left.
08:32:34  <liq3> each row is a train.
08:32:41  <liq3> that's not clear?
08:32:42  <V453000> top left is #cars
08:32:44  <V453000> not mass
08:32:50  <liq3> top right is #cars...
08:32:51  <liq3> ?
08:33:27  <V453000> I just dont see where you tell the train that it weights e.g. 500t
08:33:42  <liq3> first column on the left.
08:34:05  <V453000> oh god left
08:34:07  <V453000> jeez
08:34:08  <V453000> D:
08:34:11  <V453000> ok I see now :D
08:34:15  <V453000> proper monday morning :D sorry
08:34:22  <liq3> LOL
08:34:22  <liq3> xD
08:34:26  <liq3> it's alright.
08:36:44  <V453000> but yeah interesting, I would expect TE to have more beneficial effect at the start
08:37:08  <liq3> I think it's probably a lot more important on slopes.
08:37:11  <liq3> which I haven't added yet. :/
08:37:23  <o11c> uh, so ... why does the number of wagons matter?
08:37:24  <V453000> at the same time, NUTS trains dont have this similar speed or weight so the difference might come from that as well
08:37:34  <V453000> it doesnt, that was my point, only mass does :)
08:37:36  <liq3> who knows. ask the openTTD devs.
08:38:06  <V453000> I dont really care about the exact mechanism tbh
08:38:16  <V453000> I see what I see, and I only care that my trains are all balanced
08:38:26  <liq3> yeh that's fine.
08:38:31  <liq3> I love numbers myself, so. :P
08:38:48  <liq3> One of those weird people who like math. :]
08:40:09  <V453000> sure, but even with that, calculating which train is useful when isnt nearly so simple
08:40:26  <liq3> sure
08:40:27  <V453000> e.g. in the beginnings, I counted capacities simply by speed -> capacity
08:40:29  <liq3> I just consider this more information. :P
08:40:38  <V453000> e.g. 100kmh train would have 40, 200 kmh 20, 400 kmh 10
08:40:44  <liq3> instead of guessing how a train will accerelation with each engine, I can plot it.
08:40:47  <V453000> what I discovered though that this is completely non-linear
08:40:56  <V453000> mhm +- :)
08:41:08  <liq3> oh really?
08:41:13  <liq3> so faster trains result in less density?
08:41:18  <V453000> not even that
08:41:26  <V453000> if a fast train is very strong, density is still fine
08:41:41  <liq3> oh, so trains that accelerate slower relative to top speed?
08:41:55  <V453000> but for example NUTS trains are now 22, 30, and 35 capacity for the main train kinds
08:42:00  <V453000> which is like 200, 300, and 400 kmh
08:42:01  <liq3> yeh.
08:42:10  <V453000> (e.g. 22 isnt half of 35)
08:42:16  <liq3> :P
08:42:26  <V453000> both of which accelerate about the same way
08:42:43  <V453000> and I am not even mentioning loading speed, but that does not matter much on longer trips
08:42:50  <V453000> just makes station design eventually large
08:43:05  <liq3> hrm
08:43:14  <liq3> the thing is too, that a 2x faster train should get there 2x faster.
08:43:23  <liq3> so even with half density, it's still same cargo throughput.
08:43:37  <liq3> I guess that really depends on the SLHs and acceleration though eh.
08:43:42  <V453000> real tests show otherwise :)
08:44:02  <liq3> well, i'm assuming same cargo amount.
08:44:02  <liq3> :P
08:44:10  <liq3> obviously if it carries 25% less cargo....
08:44:31  <V453000> well 30% less cargo isnt that much if the speed is double
08:44:35  <V453000> and acceleration is similar
08:44:41  <liq3> hrm
08:44:43  <V453000> but apparently is very low already
08:44:58  <V453000> obviously nuts trains arent so simple to have "similar" acceleration either
08:44:59  <liq3> now I want to convert my SP map to slower trains and see what happens. xD
08:45:05  <liq3> slower but higher accel trains.
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08:45:39  <liq3> yeh.
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08:45:50  <V453000> depends a ton on your network
08:46:11  <liq3> those monorail express engines have huge power.
08:46:14  <V453000> but better acceleration has massive effect, yes
08:46:24  <V453000> yes the monorail intercity are majorly overpowered atm
08:46:28  <liq3> uh, it's TL3 CL3 with proper priorities and stuff.
08:46:31  <liq3> not perfect, but pretty close
08:46:33  <V453000> are unmatched regarding pax
08:46:41  <liq3> right.
08:47:17  <V453000> in general I just have one train design per network style
08:47:38  <liq3> yeh.
08:48:06  <liq3> you should see server 2 for reddit.
08:48:13  <liq3> the newgrfs and settigs are evil. :(
08:48:36  <V453000> I can imagine
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08:48:43  <V453000> put everything together, it will be best
08:49:23  <liq3> they have like classic American train sets and stuff.
08:49:27  <liq3> and 3x cargo weight.
08:49:34  <liq3> and very mountainous terrain.
08:49:38  <V453000> with "realistic" train sets, it is simply that way, they are not complete, so you need to mix them
08:49:45  <liq3> yeh.
08:49:55  <V453000> weight is generally pointless, just wrecks fast trains and makes strong trains the only option
08:50:00  <V453000> not much else
08:50:04  <liq3> yeh that's how it works in this.
08:50:22  <liq3> 5000hp engine can't even get up a mountain if it slows down.
08:50:28  <liq3> erm, TL7.
08:50:33  <V453000> yes that is typical
08:50:44  <V453000> logically there isnt really anything else it would impact
08:50:51  <V453000> power/TE simply becomes the only important factor
08:50:56  <liq3> they cost so much don't want to add more then one engine too :P
08:51:02  <liq3> yeh.
08:51:05  <V453000> OR you have to be extremely careful about not sending full trains uphill
08:51:13  <liq3> yeh.
08:51:18  <liq3> very hard to avoid with theri terrain settings. xD
08:51:19  <V453000> high costs, wrong wrong :)
08:51:31  <liq3> ?
08:51:39  <liq3> It's a fun challenge tho.
08:51:47  <V453000> well you dont have to avoid the terrain entirely, just making climbs slower is fine
08:51:58  <V453000> more costs = more waiting
08:52:04  <liq3> haha
08:52:06  <V453000> you do the same in the game, your choices are not really influenced
08:52:12  <liq3> only matters at the start. quickly get so rich anyway
08:52:18  <liq3> yeh.
08:52:25  <liq3> The game isn't balanced at all for cost to matter.
08:52:41  <V453000> exactly
08:52:52  <V453000> building matters
08:53:05  <liq3> heh.
08:53:06  <V453000> so having the money to actually build stuff instead of sitting, watching, and waiting, is kind of sensible
08:53:18  <liq3> imagine if the game was actually competitive. You could lower the money you get from goods to out-buy other companies. :p
08:53:30  <liq3> yeh.
08:55:51  <V453000> the game doesnt really have any valid numbers to compete on :)
08:56:00  <V453000> using very trivial approaches usually wins in raw numbers
08:56:23  <V453000> except ultra long/advanced games which cant quite be competitive :D
08:57:09  <V453000> unless you have whole teams of people in companies
08:57:17  <V453000> or each players plays for a year :D
08:57:56  <liq3> I have a mate who used to do that apperently.
08:58:06  <liq3> I think in college? Teams of people competiting against each other in OpenTTD
08:58:07  <liq3> lol.
08:58:12  <liq3> competeting*
08:58:57  <liq3> btw, monorail vs electric FAST trains in NUTS, for TL3, monorail is completely superior.
08:58:57  <liq3> :P
08:59:06  <liq3> they have almost same accel curve, but monorali has higher top speed.
08:59:10  <liq3> monorail*
09:00:03  <liq3> tho I suppose the lower cargo matters eh?
09:00:12  <V453000> a LOT :)
09:00:24  <liq3> it's only 30 vs 35 tho. :p
09:00:29  <V453000> a LOT :)
09:00:41  <liq3> 120 vs 140. >>>
09:00:43  <liq3> >.>
09:00:46  <V453000> that is a lot
09:00:58  <V453000> also the weight of the vehicles AND the cargo means you can abuse downhills
09:01:01  <liq3> when you have 256 vs 341 top speed?
09:01:07  <V453000> yes
09:01:28  <V453000> are you sure TL3 fast train has the stats you think it does?
09:01:37  <V453000> (did you build the train or read it in the purchase menu?)
09:01:45  <liq3> 17% more cargo, but 33% faster.
09:01:50  <liq3> (erm if you get what I mean)
09:01:56  <liq3> top speed wise.
09:02:04  <liq3> built the train.
09:02:08  <liq3> did cargo weight manually tho
09:02:35  <V453000> it is suspicious that the TL3 would be efficient in mono fast
09:02:48  <V453000> but I will check later, lunch now
09:02:48  <V453000> cya
09:02:51  <liq3> seeya
09:03:47  <liq3> I think it's because mono fast gets power and TE bonuses per train unit.
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10:04:12  <planetmaker> !lin64
10:04:17  <planetmaker> !dl lin64
10:04:17  <coopserver> planetmaker: http://binaries.openttd.org/nightlies/trunk/r26920/openttd-trunk-r26920-linux-generic-amd64.tar.xz
10:04:25  <V453000> liq3: it does but it starts very low so short trains should be almost useless
10:04:31  <V453000> I might have changed that sometime lately though yeah
10:06:59  *** Jam35_ is now known as Jam35
10:21:16  <liq3> oh, you made NUTS?
10:24:05  <V453000> yes ? :D
10:25:45  <V453000> I thought you knew that
10:30:08  <liq3> nope XD
10:30:21  <liq3> You have stats for all the engines btw?
10:31:07  <liq3> I'm curious how you balance them.
10:32:19  <V453000> stats are just in the game
10:32:21  <liq3> Also, is it intentional that in YETI you only need one of each non-YETI industry?
10:32:22  <V453000> or in the code
10:32:38  <V453000> balance is purely by eye and game observation
10:32:42  <liq3> ok
10:32:48  <V453000> in YETI it is a bit intentional
10:33:07  <V453000> like temporarily intentional - future production mechanism will work differently, motivating to use multiple industries
10:33:10  <liq3> e.g. you only need one iron ore mine.
10:33:18  <V453000> kind of yes
10:33:20  <liq3> hrm
10:33:24  <V453000> you will always only "need" one
10:33:27  <liq3> nono
10:33:33  <liq3> I mean there's no advantage last I checked to having two.
10:33:38  <liq3> your math doesn't encourage it. :P
10:33:41  <V453000> no, there isnt any yet
10:33:43  <V453000> as I said :)
10:33:44  <liq3> ok
10:33:47  <liq3> no worries then.
10:33:47  <V453000> production mechanisms will change
10:34:16  <liq3> I swear I read you wanted people to use more then one so.
10:34:16  <V453000> e.g. the more yetis you deliver, the less efficient they will get
10:34:21  <liq3> thought it a bit odd it doesn't encourage that.
10:34:25  <liq3> yeh.
10:34:33  <V453000> yeah because coding the production mechanism is not exactly easy
10:34:48  <V453000> and I just coded the thing to work at least somehow, not to be ultimately final before making 0.0.1 :)
10:34:48  <liq3> really? hrm
10:34:54  <liq3> ah
10:35:16  <V453000> for me production mechanism is hell.
10:35:36  <V453000> Sylf is now helping me with the coding (he does all coding atm) ... he seems to understand it :D i dont
10:35:37  <V453000>  at all
10:35:43  <liq3> haha ok
10:35:55  <liq3> yeh I peeked into the source code to figure out how it works
10:35:58  <V453000> and he is actually working on that very currently, so the changes might be in 0.0.9 :)
10:36:00  <liq3> since I couldn't find any other info.
10:36:08  <V453000> source of openttd or yeti?
10:36:09  <liq3> cool.
10:36:11  <liq3> YETI
10:36:14  <V453000> ah :)
10:36:15  <V453000> yeah
10:36:20  <liq3> yeh the scaling was linear...
10:36:30  <V453000> indeed
10:36:43  <V453000> the biggest issue atm was to get the animations to actually work
10:36:48  <V453000> took 2 months (:
10:36:48  <liq3> hehe
10:36:56  <liq3> they look very cool.
10:37:02  <V453000> but now the infrastructure is done so can actually make anything now
10:37:13  <liq3> they don't even look that out of place with the 8bpp gfx
10:37:19  <V453000> I am creating the model of a new industry right now, with more details for everything later
10:37:29  <V453000> yeah they fit quite well
10:37:41  <liq3> ...YETI is going to be terrifying when you get that town code done.
10:38:29  <liq3> having to grow towns to grow industries! my god.
10:38:58  <V453000> yeah ... there are some limitations what newGRF can actually do with towns, but it will be interesting
10:39:10  <V453000> also, this will probably be possible to turn off by parameters
10:39:17  <liq3> haha.
10:39:22  <liq3> I wanted it as complicated as possible. ;]
10:40:04  <liq3> I look forward to trying to connect every industry and town with a single mainline.
10:40:06  <V453000> the most complex will probably be that worker yards produce based on 1. delivery of food, 2. delivery of BDMT, and 3. delivery of MAIL
10:40:07  <liq3> or other such craziness.
10:40:15  <liq3> o.o
10:40:23  <V453000> which would mean that you need to take serious care about the town to deliver TOWN products to the worker yard
10:40:31  <V453000> or passengers/mail, doesnt really matter
10:40:41  <V453000> point is that you dont just build roads and wait till town grows
10:40:44  <V453000> you really CARE about the town
10:40:57  <liq3> hrm
10:41:30  <V453000> but as I said
10:41:33  <V453000> this will be possible to turn off
10:41:49  <V453000> more specifically: 4X Worker Yard 3rd cargo: none / pass / mail
10:42:06  <V453000> although even that does not make all difficulties gone
10:42:15  <V453000> as towns get bigger, they need more food
10:42:22  <V453000> if you dont give them enough food, no bonus workers
10:42:27  <V453000> same for bdmt
10:42:28  <liq3> I thought you were going to make worker yards based on town pop.
10:42:49  <V453000> they kind of are
10:42:59  <V453000> the requirements and relations they make to BDMT and FOOD are done that way
10:43:01  <liq3> I suppose if you make them require passengers, they basically are eh?
10:43:10  <V453000> then, if 3rd cargo are none, they are linked directly
10:43:11  <V453000> yeah
10:43:11  <liq3> bigger town = more passengers.
10:43:13  <V453000> exactly
10:43:50  <liq3> so Food BDMT going to town or worker yard?
10:43:50  <V453000> the trick is, that the size isnt just about your town size, but also about your proper service of the town
10:43:57  <V453000> worker yard
10:44:02  <liq3> hrm
10:44:06  <V453000> cant make buildings accept that without editing buildings
10:44:11  <liq3> ah.
10:44:12  <V453000> which I dont quite want to do in industry newgrf
10:44:26  <liq3> how does citybuilder do it?
10:44:43  <liq3> oh, unless towns accept goods by default
10:44:43  <liq3> oh they do.
10:44:44  <liq3> nvm then.
10:45:06  <liq3> I guess FIRS changes towns to accept food?
10:45:20  <V453000> I believe FIRS has shops among buildings which accept taht
10:45:24  <V453000> but the shop is industry
10:45:24  <liq3> ok
10:45:36  <V453000> citybuilder is a game script, that has totally different possibilities than newGRF
10:46:19  <V453000> what YETI boils down to is basically creating the most interesting link to towns while staying in the bounds of one industry newGRF alone
10:46:40  <liq3> ok
10:47:02  <liq3> so yeh you basically require PAX to improve workers.
10:47:03  <liq3> interesting.
10:47:25  <V453000> basically yes
10:47:32  <liq3> I look forward to the horrifying games you coop guys create with this. :P
10:47:38  <V453000> hm :)
10:47:52  <liq3> The YETI ones i've seen already I didn't find that great.
10:48:02  <liq3> the PGS ones.
10:48:10  <liq3> had seperate lines for the workers.
10:48:10  <V453000> there was one which was quite nice
10:48:14  <V453000> yeah
10:48:23  <liq3> and, didn't deliver anything to worker yards. thought it was pretty lame
10:48:25  <liq3> :p
10:48:32  <V453000> I think it did deliver to worker yard
10:48:37  <V453000> through transfer presumably
10:48:38  <liq3> I might not have seen that one
10:49:35  <V453000> is possible :)
10:50:10  <V453000> regardless, I am not sure if the networking effect is somehow revolutionary
10:50:19  <V453000> the only thing it really creates is more dynamic on sidelines
10:50:42  <V453000> but I would definitely not expect anything super different
10:50:50  <V453000> big mainlines are still going to stay big mainlines
10:50:57  <liq3> heh true.
10:51:02  <V453000> you still deliver from point A to point B
10:51:04  <liq3> It's definately a lot more interesting then base OpenTTD tho. :p
10:51:10  <V453000> it is just different
10:51:15  <liq3> hrm
10:51:16  <V453000> original industries are just fine
10:51:40  <V453000> at the current YETI form you could even say that original industries are a lot better
10:51:49  <V453000> because original industries allow you to do any kind of game
10:51:57  <V453000> YETI industries atm make you play only one type of game
10:52:00  <V453000> one industry of each, done
10:52:04  <liq3> yeh.
10:52:28  <V453000> I am not sure how much is linking industries to towns allow for diversity
10:52:30  <V453000> probably not veyr much
10:52:37  <V453000> it will be fun and interesting because you have to do everything at once
10:52:50  <liq3> That's what I was thinking.
10:52:53  <V453000> but at the same time it will not allow for terrible amounts of variety
10:52:56  <liq3> how do you manage pax/industries at the same time.
10:52:57  <liq3> :p
10:53:12  <V453000> that is players choice :)
10:53:19  <V453000> you can overload one town with a ton of food/bdmt
10:53:23  <V453000> or grow the town
10:53:31  <V453000> if you do both you get the most obviously, by far
10:53:38  <V453000> or you do optimal way and do some of each
10:53:45  <V453000> medium towns with ok supply
10:54:37  <V453000> which will obviously be the best method, defined by the $math
10:55:00  <liq3> yeh
10:57:47  <V453000> regardless, all that is still work in progress and the final state might be a bit different :P
10:58:08  <liq3> ok
10:58:15  <V453000> a lot of the things you can read here https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/yeti
10:58:22  <V453000> some might not be most up to date
10:58:23  <liq3> yeh I've seen that. :]
10:58:26  <V453000> k :)
11:51:49  <Djanxy> !password
11:51:49  <coopserver> Djanxy: client
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11:55:47  <V453000> smash
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17:15:03  <Hobbyte> !info
17:15:03  <coopserver> Hobbyte: #openttdcoop - Public Server (www.openttdcoop.org), Version: r26920, date: May 01 2404, map size: 512x512, address: publicserver-new.openttdcoop.org:3983
17:16:12  <Hobbyte> !download win64
17:16:12  <coopserver> Hobbyte: http://binaries.openttd.org/nightlies/trunk/r26920/openttd-trunk-r26920-windows-win64.zip
17:22:45  <Hobbyte> !password
17:22:45  <coopserver> Hobbyte: though
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17:27:06  <Hobbyte> wow you guys make some impressive stuff
17:28:19  <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> i have no idea what half of this stuff does, but it's impressive just watching
17:30:13  <V453000> heyo
17:30:23  <Hobbyte> hey
17:30:28  <V453000> !password
17:30:28  <coopserver> V453000: though
17:30:41  <V453000> welcome to hell :)
17:30:46  <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> don't worry i'm not breaking anything, i promise
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17:30:58  <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> just watching
17:31:02  <coopserver> <V453000> its fine :)
17:31:26  <coopserver> <V453000> this game is very different from the typical networking
17:31:38  <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> i see that
17:31:40  <coopserver> <V453000> based on a lot of wtf
17:32:01  <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> i always thought you guys were making super realistic stuff
17:32:08  <hylje_> never
17:32:12  <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> but you seem to be going for absolute efficiency
17:32:18  <coopserver> <V453000> we make what makes sense
17:32:25  <coopserver> <V453000> you can build anything, but it has to work
17:32:27  <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> makes sense to you maybe ;)
17:32:35  <coopserver> <V453000> and anything is very broad in terms of openttd :)
17:32:37  <hylje_> coop is about exploiting openttd to its logical extremes
17:32:41  <coopserver> <V453000> things can be beautiful, things can be nice
17:32:48  <hylje_> not to engage in miniature railroading
17:33:18  <coopserver> <V453000> realistic people are the direct opposite, they "disallow" things to be built just because they call it "ugly" or "wrong"
17:33:25  <coopserver> <V453000> while we use the only valid criteria - if it works
17:33:35  <coopserver> <V453000> rest is "do whatever you like"
17:33:37  <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> well, i wasn't meaning strictly realism
17:33:48  <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> i dunno
17:33:51  <coopserver> <V453000> well we both know what "Realistic" networks in OpenTTD look like
17:37:12  <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> his logic stuff is crazy
17:37:45  <coopserver> <V453000> it can be very divert but most of the things are based on one idea
17:38:33  <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> yeah i'm watching how these stations work and it's starting to make sense
17:38:48  <V453000> @srnw
17:38:48  <Webster> srnw: Self-regulating Network, see also: http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/SRNW
17:39:08  <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> i've been browsing through pages on the wiki
17:39:13  <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> some of those junctions blow my mind
17:39:37  <V453000> @ABR09
17:39:38  <Webster> Advanced Building Revue 09: Self Regulating Stations at #openttdcoop - http://blog.openttdcoop.org/2011/01/21/advanced-building-revue-09-self-regulating-stations/
17:39:38  <V453000> yeah :)
17:40:12  <V453000> hm I dont think we have a basic explanation on the SRNW station
17:40:14  <V453000> regardless
17:40:23  <V453000> if you want to se the MAX, see @@pzg2013
17:40:24  <Webster> Dont Try This At Home: ProZone Game 2013 at #openttdcoop - http://blog.openttdcoop.org/2013/08/06/dont-try-this-at-home-prozone-game-2013
17:41:06  <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> WOW
17:41:41  <V453000> this is my last (so far) mostly singleplayer game, the contents are unmatched in many regards
17:47:07  <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> oh i see
17:47:17  <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> you don't even have separate trains per cargo type, they just autorefit
17:47:47  <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> at least that's how i interpret that network design diagram
17:47:53  <coopserver> <V453000> it isnt exactly autorefit (autorefit is in station)
17:47:57  <coopserver> <V453000> but yeah refit by orders automatically
17:48:28  <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> and each of those cargo types in the diagram represents a "pickup/dropoff loop"
17:48:47  <coopserver> <V453000> quite yeah
17:50:34  <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> what's the reason for using synchronized stations and dummy trains?
17:50:45  <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> instead of just letting them come in and fill up whenever they can?
17:50:57  <coopserver> <V453000> big reason, you need to make sure they can load 100%
17:51:07  <coopserver> <V453000> if they didnt, they would just pass through empty
17:51:09  <coopserver> <V453000> -> bad
17:51:16  <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> ohhhhh
17:51:31  <coopserver> <V453000> that is why the dummy trains are always same capacity as the loading trains
17:51:33  <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> the dummy train is large enough that it can hold enough cargo for all 4 trains
17:51:38  <coopserver> <V453000> yeah
17:51:42  <coopserver> <V453000> usually exactly 1:1
17:52:03  <coopserver> <V453000> or just a tiny bit less, if we are sure that there will be enough cargo to load in the meantime when it travels etc
17:52:12  <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> and you gate it so they won't pathfind off the main line to get to the station unless there's enough cargo, because the waiting bays are full
17:52:59  <coopserver> <_Hobbyte_> iiiiinteresting
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17:56:27  <Sylf> I tried to make a few new SRNW station designs in this game
17:56:47  <Sylf> I'm pretty happy how they came out :)
17:56:56  <V453000> yeah basically that, except pathing is same, you just hold them by the signals :P
17:56:58  <V453000> Sylf: which ones?
17:57:15  <Sylf> never tried flip flops for station control before
17:57:31  <Sylf> I tried couple different PBS based controls
17:58:13  <coopserver> <V453000> the transfer ones?
17:58:24  <Sylf> flip flops are for transfers
17:58:42  <Sylf> thereĊ› one pbs one in livestock area, north end
17:59:02  <Sylf> there's anoter style of pbs stuff in the oil area
17:59:27  <coopserver> <V453000> that one looks interesting
17:59:38  <Sylf> livestock one is kinda wtf
17:59:38  <coopserver> <V453000> well it just shows there are many options :D
17:59:50  <Sylf> the way pre signal behave there was unexpected
18:00:43  <Sylf> I wanted to get away from the same all designs
18:00:53  <coopserver> <V453000> :) which is good
18:01:30  <Sylf> designing the train counter to control srnw was fun too
18:01:51  <Sylf> southwest corner
18:01:54  <coopserver> <V453000> what does the counter influence?
18:02:39  <Sylf> it adds/subtracts the counter when it detects feeder/mainline trains passing the detection gate
18:03:02  <V453000> well sure but does the counter have any use?
18:04:12  <Sylf> it balances the feeder and mainline trains using the station
18:04:24  <Sylf> within the limit of the size of the counter
18:05:20  <coopserver> <V453000> ahh
18:05:22  <coopserver> <V453000> right :)
18:05:36  <Sylf> when there aren't enough ML trains coming to that station, the feeder trains can drop off stuff, up to 6 trains or something
18:05:45  <coopserver> <V453000> I can see that yeah :)
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20:51:13  <Hobbyte> !password
20:51:13  <coopserver> Hobbyte: values
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21:03:34  <coopserver> fleet75: values
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22:00:34  <argoneus> !help
22:00:35  <coopserver> argoneus: http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Soap
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