Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 19th May 2009:
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05:51:20  *** DJNekkid has quit IRC
08:47:51  <Webster> Latest update from trac: Revision 711: -Change: support messages from min_active_clients and bridge them to irc <>
09:01:40  <Webster> Latest update from dev: Autopilot - Revision 711: -Change: support messages from min_active_clients and bridge them to irc <>
12:14:10  <Webster> Latest update from dev: 2cc train set - Feature #56: rework region availability parameter <> || 2cc train set - Feature #55: refit policy accessible via parameter <>
12:20:25  <planetmaker> Ammler, what do you think of Tracker #55 ?
12:25:16  <Ammler> planetmaker: dunno if it is worth
12:26:25  <planetmaker> it's not a big act. Two additional sprites per wagon with different capabilities
12:26:39  <planetmaker> I think I yesterday found out how to do that :)
12:27:07  <Ammler> what is the advantage of a bit switch against the parameters?
12:27:20  <Ammler> and I guess, there are too many regions already.
12:27:44  <Ammler> I once suggested DJ to use bitswitch, too.
12:27:56  <Ammler> But not sure anymore, it is easier for the user.
12:34:05  <planetmaker> well. Getting a string of 0 0 1 0 1 0 1 1 correct isn't particularily easy, either
12:34:15  <planetmaker> I rather add up some numbers.
12:36:51  <Ammler> wll, you can ;-)
12:37:08  <Ammler> aber stell dir ein "normalo" vor
12:38:20  <planetmaker> well, yes. they can do, I think
12:38:39  <planetmaker> a "Normalo" won't bother to look at the readme anyway
12:47:06  <Ammler> we rejected the bitswitch because of only 8 bits available, has that changed?
12:56:15  <planetmaker> ah... I guess not
12:56:36  <planetmaker> despite that, I still like that more. But now you mention it, I remember that discussion :)
12:57:42  * Ammler posted another idea ;-)
13:01:14  <planetmaker> hehe :) I agree with you
13:02:21  <Webster> Latest update from dev: 2cc train set - Support #57: Skipping version 2.03 <> || 2cc train set - Feature #56: rework region availability parameter <>
13:02:53  * planetmaker replied there
13:03:19  * planetmaker also thinks that the beta status could just as well be dropped. It's playable after all.
13:04:16  <Brot> [DevZone] 2cc train set - Feature #56: rework region availability parameter (Ammler) -
13:04:17  <Brot> [DevZone] 2cc train set - Support #57: Skipping version 2.03 (Ammler) -
13:04:18  <Brot> [DevZone] 2cc train set - Support #57: Skipping version 2.03 (planetmaker) -
13:07:36  <planetmaker> Ammler, and how is making available as a function of company supposed to work?
13:08:19  <Ammler> dunno
13:08:21  <Ammler> :-)
13:08:45  <Ammler> I just know, nars2 has company dependend liveries
13:09:12  <Ammler> I guess, not possible.
13:12:03  <Ammler> which link do you prefer for the changeset view?
13:12:11  <planetmaker> ?
13:12:11  <Ammler> hte one to redmine or gitweb?
13:12:37  <planetmaker> which is what?
13:12:50  <Ammler> is2 log is gitweb
13:13:03  <Ammler>
13:14:22  <planetmaker> well. I find websters update message too long
13:14:48  <planetmaker> thoug... the last one is two messages. They should IMO be seperate messages
13:14:59  <Ammler> oh
13:15:26  <Ammler> don't take the bot to your vote :-)
13:16:17  <Ammler> @rss announce --remove dev
13:16:17  <Webster> Ammler: The operation succeeded.
13:16:36  <Ammler> @rss remove dev
13:16:36  <Webster> Ammler: The operation succeeded.
13:19:10  <Ammler>
13:20:02  <Ammler>
13:20:12  <Ammler> which one would you like more?
13:21:41  <planetmaker> <-- that's what I like better. The other though has better linking to the whole project
13:22:22  <Ammler> btw. a nice commit ;-)
13:22:37  <planetmaker> :P
13:22:52  <planetmaker> btw, the link doesn't point to the devzone, but to the blog
13:22:59  <Ammler> <-- works too
13:23:24  <Ammler> blog?
13:24:29  <planetmaker> link in the upper right
13:24:53  <planetmaker> title line: #openttdcoop Development Zone2cctrainset / changeset
13:24:59  <planetmaker> title line: #openttdcoop Development Zone
13:28:10  <Ammler> oh, indeeed, that could be changed now :-)
13:28:44  <Ammler> the templates for that are in /home/oftc/hg-templates
13:31:02  <Ammler> hmm, now I need a proper sed for
13:31:19  <planetmaker> well. actually I don't really think it needs changing from where it is now
13:31:25  <planetmaker> s/where/what/
13:31:39  <Ammler> the link?
13:31:42  <planetmaker> the diff is available at
13:31:46  <planetmaker> just as well
13:32:19  <Ammler> alos annotate is available
13:34:18  <Ammler> hmm, actually, I have another idea for the template :-)
13:34:27  <planetmaker> :P
13:36:22  <Ammler> the cgi thing is a lot slower than redmine
13:50:10  <planetmaker> he
13:56:16  <Brot> [DevZone] Mercurial Templates - Revision 0: Initial import of the default templates from Mercurial package. (ottdc@mozart) -
13:56:17  <Brot> [DevZone] 2cc train set - Feature #56: rework region availability parameter (planetmaker) -
14:08:16  <Brot> [DevZone] Mercurial Templates - Revision 1: -Tile link to (ottdc@mozart) -
14:29:16  <Brot> [DevZone] #openttdcoop - Wiki edit: Mercurial (#2) (Ammler) -
14:32:16  <Brot> [DevZone] #openttdcoop - Wiki edit: VCS (#3) (Ammler) -
17:53:16  <Brot> [DevZone] Infrastructure Sharing - Revision 12125: [IS] Fix the open issues in HandleSharingChange regardin... (Hirundo) -
17:53:17  <Brot> [DevZone] Infrastructure Sharing - Revision 12126: [IS] Fix a compile warning. (Hirundo) -
17:53:18  <Brot> [DevZone] Infrastructure Sharing - Revision 12127: [IS] Fix another compile warning. (Hirundo) -
19:23:16  <Brot> [DevZone] 2cc train set - Feature #56: rework region availability parameter (DJNekkid) -
19:30:38  *** DJNekkid has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
19:30:43  <DJNekkid> hi all :)
19:50:01  <Ammler> DJ
19:50:52  <Ammler> Bug: 13 open / 18
19:51:19  <Brot> [DevZone] Infrastructure Sharing - Bug #8 (Closed): Code issues in HandleSharingChange (Hirundo) -
19:52:16  <planetmaker> heya
19:52:39  <planetmaker> DJNekkid, don't you think that we could oceania integrate into asia, concerning regional parameters?
19:52:48  <planetmaker> the we could do with just one parameter...
19:53:06  <planetmaker> that said, I think I have quite an idea how to query for that.
20:02:32  <DJNekkid> i saw the post on redmine
20:02:37  <DJNekkid> dunno if u saw my awnser?
20:02:55  <planetmaker> yes, I did :)
20:03:15  <planetmaker> my point is: why have three param, if we can have one :)
20:03:33  <DJNekkid> then i think we rather should incorporate something else
20:03:34  <planetmaker> and it's not like oceania has many vehicles anyway
20:03:52  <DJNekkid> its not like africa, south america og asia have either :)
20:04:00  <planetmaker> concerning regional switches something else?
20:04:25  <planetmaker> yes. And asia and oceanea could be the same in principle...
20:06:07  <DJNekkid> hmm...
20:07:07  <DJNekkid> im more bound to make that to keep the european regions, north america and ocania, and remove asia, south america and africa, add 3rd world and japan
20:07:11  <DJNekkid> to a total of 8
20:07:24  <DJNekkid> merge s-am, africa and asia
20:07:37  <planetmaker> I wouldn't use the term "3rd world".
20:07:38  <DJNekkid> as neither have many engines in the first place
20:07:45  <DJNekkid> me either, but u get the drift :)
20:08:16  <planetmaker> well... or let's make two: one parameter for the continents. And a 2nd which is in effect, if you choose to have Europe
20:10:04  <DJNekkid> if u know what to do, be my guest :)
20:10:39  <DJNekkid> tbh, i dont know what we are doing with this parameter system anyway...
20:10:54  <planetmaker> well. I *think* I could do it as I *think* that I kinda understood what the wiki said about conditional sprite usage.
20:11:35  <planetmaker> I was looking at it the other day in order to remove the water from the flatbed wagon.
20:11:45  <planetmaker> Turned out unnecessary, but still. I learnt something :)
20:11:51  <DJNekkid> hehe
20:15:07  <DJNekkid> anyway
20:15:17  <DJNekkid> i'll talk to purno if i get a hold of him one day
20:15:57  <DJNekkid> and atleast get him to poll the 2cc thread, if the regions thingy is very usefull
20:15:58  <planetmaker> well. with two parameters, continents (and maybe oceania) and a special one for Europe, the principle availability things need not be changed
20:16:25  <DJNekkid> i mean, nearly all regions of the world have some kind of trianset...
20:16:27  <planetmaker> I'm just a bit... well... worried about parameter inflation.
20:17:01  <DJNekkid> frankly, i dont like parameters much myself
20:17:12  <DJNekkid> too much stuff that can go wrong
20:17:42  <planetmaker> well. I never used them. But it shouldn't add much trouble. Just conditional skipping of the subsequent sprites. No hurt afaik
20:18:01  <DJNekkid> easier to jump to waypoint, but still
20:18:32  <planetmaker> well. or that
20:18:40  <planetmaker> true
20:19:32  <DJNekkid> i did send purno a offline tell on msn
20:19:39  <DJNekkid> so i'll get an awnser at some point...
20:19:44  <planetmaker> ok :)
20:20:27  <DJNekkid> but there are more logical choises if we merge
20:20:41  <DJNekkid> south europe could go to partially western and eastern
20:21:03  <DJNekkid> spain + italy to western, turkey (iirc) to eastern
20:21:04  <planetmaker> well... could. But Europe has the WAY most trains anyway
20:21:21  <DJNekkid> you mean, western europe have most trains
20:21:28  <DJNekkid> with eastern on a good 2nd place
20:21:33  <DJNekkid> and scandinavia on 3rd
20:21:39  <DJNekkid> a rough guesstimate
20:21:54  <planetmaker> yeah, somewhat
20:22:19  <DJNekkid> but i've got a feeling we should add a kind of generic type as well
20:22:39  <DJNekkid> i mean, there are way to many trains in the set that are more a "type" then a specific train
20:22:40  <DJNekkid> i.e.
20:22:50  <DJNekkid> BM93 from norway... thats a "talent"
20:22:56  <DJNekkid> the Lint41
20:23:14  <DJNekkid> also a model from some kind of factory, that is widely used
20:23:24  <planetmaker> you mean that they're used all over the world?
20:23:29  <DJNekkid> more or less
20:23:36  <DJNekkid> atleast all over europe
20:23:44  <DJNekkid> Lets say we add the Stadler Flirt...
20:24:21  <DJNekkid> should it be a german 460 or something, swiss RBHD-whatever-they-call-it, a norwegian BM9x or 7x, or a finnish SM5 ?
20:24:33  <planetmaker> hehe :)
20:24:45  <DJNekkid> atleast with the sets current scheme, where all trains have no limits on length and sutch
20:24:48  <DJNekkid> such
20:25:09  <planetmaker> well... I'm comfortable with no length limitation on the trains.
20:25:16  <DJNekkid> i am too
20:25:40  <planetmaker> different people different playing style :) - and we can support that :)
20:25:50  <planetmaker> We don't need to adopt mb's attitude there
20:25:52  <DJNekkid> yup
20:26:00  <DJNekkid> the dutchset will be quite different btw
20:26:15  <DJNekkid> there ALL MU's will be fixed sized articulated engines
20:26:27  <DJNekkid> and different lengths will be only a refit
20:26:55  <planetmaker> what? that's... quite restrictive...
20:27:05  <DJNekkid> they want realism :)
20:27:14  <DJNekkid> but it's quite fun actually :)
20:27:20  <planetmaker> make it a parameter :P
20:27:26  <DJNekkid> no way!
20:27:29  <DJNekkid> hehe
20:27:29  <planetmaker> no_realism parameter :)
20:28:03  <DJNekkid> the grapichs are complicated as it is...
20:28:10  <DJNekkid> that would be in a 3.0 version or something
20:28:46  <DJNekkid> the ICM alone were about 400 lines of code
20:28:58  <DJNekkid> with 32 different spritesets
20:29:12  <planetmaker> ups... A LOT!
20:29:29  <DJNekkid> aye
20:30:03  <DJNekkid> but back to the 2cc set :)
20:30:08  <planetmaker> :)
20:31:36  <planetmaker> do we actually consider the game difficulty in the costs of this set?
20:32:56  <planetmaker> and another idea I had: adding support for GRM.
20:33:11  <planetmaker> but that's... quite advanced, I think
20:35:38  <planetmaker> I'll be back in a few minutes.
20:37:03  <DJNekkid> 1... game difficulty ... im not sure, but i dont think, if its possible to read that in grf...
20:37:10  <DJNekkid> GRM ... ?
20:37:19  <DJNekkid> grapichal resource managemant iirc
20:37:29  <DJNekkid> why is that needed?
20:37:48  <DJNekkid> the set is for openttd, where we already have nearly unlimited vehicle IDs anyway
20:38:18  <DJNekkid> GRM is afaik for reserveing some vehicle ID's if two sets are loded simultainiasly in ttdp...
20:39:06  <DJNekkid> so lets say one have added three kinds of roadvehicle sets, one can have it's focus on trams, one can have on trucks, and one on busses
20:40:24  <Ammler> hmm, but compatiblity to other sets might be a idea
20:40:37  <DJNekkid> in what terms?
20:40:48  <DJNekkid> running costs? purch prices?
20:41:01  <Ammler> yep, so they match other sets
20:41:26  <DJNekkid> that is an IMMENSE job!
20:41:31  <Ammler> :-)
20:41:48  <DJNekkid> it would actually be easier to change the costs of the other sets with this set :)
20:42:23  <DJNekkid> if <grf id of this or that set is loaded> <use theese action 0's>
20:42:47  <Ammler> that is what I meant
20:42:56  <DJNekkid> point is ...
20:43:06  <DJNekkid> thoose action0's are for the "other set"
20:44:34  <DJNekkid> because, the running costs for the 2cc set are defined more then 1 place
20:49:00  <planetmaker> back
20:49:01  <planetmaker> did I miss something since I left?
20:49:16  <DJNekkid> and, it seems like the (two) other ("large") train coders dont have too much will to let their sets be compatible to other sets
20:49:20  <DJNekkid> MB and pikka
20:49:45  <DJNekkid> heck, NARS and URKS arent compatible with eachother
20:49:46  <planetmaker> yeah. Unfortunately. I find it a pity.
20:50:31  <planetmaker> well. There's still the Japan one, it's big, too. canset is... very special. No one cares about compatibility... :(
20:50:43  <planetmaker> but, then, I think we could actually go for that :)
20:50:52  <planetmaker> and e.g. make dutch set and 2cc compatible :)
20:51:10  <DJNekkid> all my future sets will be compatible to each other
20:51:20  <planetmaker> :)
20:51:35  <planetmaker> and GRM looks like it could help a bit.
20:51:44  <planetmaker> Though it's not _the_ solution in my eyes either.
20:51:47  <DJNekkid> what is this GRM thing anyway?
20:51:54  <planetmaker> graphics resource management
20:52:00  <DJNekkid> but u see pm
20:52:17  <planetmaker> e.g. you can declare certain things occupied by a grf and check for them being occupied by others
20:52:25  <planetmaker> e.g. base costs and stuff
20:52:36  <DJNekkid> the main problem with compatibility with the 2cc set and the other sets are the way i've coded the running costs...
20:52:45  <planetmaker> yes.
20:52:55  <planetmaker> wait.
20:52:59  <planetmaker> running costs?
20:53:05  <DJNekkid> because, most other sets have the 3 running cost types to the same value
20:53:21  <DJNekkid> and, they set all diesel engines use diesel running cost base
20:53:28  <DJNekkid> electric to electric
20:53:28  <DJNekkid> etc
20:53:55  <DJNekkid> but, to let this set be able to have its "nice and high" running costs, that ment a sacrifice to the running cost resolution
20:54:30  <DJNekkid> so, one of the running cost bases are 2-3 steps higher (4 or 8x) then the other
20:54:55  <DJNekkid> and all engines that need a low running cost, also need a better resolution, so that many engines dont cost exactly the same to run
20:55:11  <DJNekkid> but when it's getting above a certain level, its a big limit anyway
20:55:33  <DJNekkid> take a TGV for example. it have, lets say, 100k running cost
20:56:00  <DJNekkid> but two low speed low power engines may be "around" 10k, both of then
20:56:15  <DJNekkid> but one might be 9875 and the other 10350
20:56:34  <DJNekkid> and if both of them were exactly 10k, it would look kinda wierd
20:56:40  <planetmaker> hm... yes
20:56:45  <DJNekkid> and the same goes for _most_ MU's
20:57:05  <DJNekkid> they lay in the "low cost, high resolution" area
20:57:26  <planetmaker> but... could we make that a switch? Like if we find one other train set, we forget about the high and nice running costs...?
20:57:36  <planetmaker> well. that happens anyway, if they're loaded after us, right?
20:58:24  <DJNekkid> while the higher powered, higher speed engines, lay in "low resolution, high cost" area
20:59:04  <DJNekkid> and to top that
20:59:18  <DJNekkid> on all MUs are the MU wagons running cost edited...
21:04:19  <planetmaker> he... yeah. Makes sense
21:04:37  <DJNekkid> but... im off to bed now...
21:04:45  <planetmaker> ok. good night to you :)
21:05:04  <DJNekkid> but, if all other sets would use diesel as running base, we would not have a problem :)
21:05:07  <DJNekkid> tty 2morrow
21:06:18  <planetmaker> well... *the solution* would be real base costs. A grf-specific base cost modifier. And then all costs relative
21:06:37  <planetmaker> the base cost modifier should be possible to set via parameter.
21:06:49  <planetmaker> then it'd be easy to make sets compatible. But not possible now
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21:34:29  <Brot> [DevZone] Coopetition ladder - Feature #59: Login/registration (XeryusTC) -
21:37:18  <Brot> [DevZone] Coopetition ladder - Feature #60: Team management (XeryusTC) -
21:37:19  <Brot> [DevZone] Coopetition ladder - Feature #61: Ladders (XeryusTC) -
21:38:14  *** XeryusTC has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
21:40:20  <Brot> [DevZone] Coopetition ladder - Feature #62: Shedule (XeryusTC) -
21:43:19  <Brot> [DevZone] Coopetition ladder - Bug #63: Shedule drawing broken (XeryusTC) -
21:56:18  <Brot> [DevZone] Coopetition ladder - Bug #64: Games (XeryusTC) -
21:56:19  <Brot> [DevZone] Coopetition ladder - Bug #64: Games (XeryusTC) -
21:56:45  <XeryusTC> blah, highlights all over the place:o
21:57:06  <planetmaker> hehe :)
22:00:51  *** Mark is now known as Guest3213
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22:08:18  <Brot> [DevZone] 2cc train set - Revision 56: Change: document the white space in the names of engines and wagons ... (planetmaker) -
22:08:19  <Brot> [DevZone] 2cc train set - Revision 57: Fix #47: add the default language header also to the German language (planetmaker) -
22:08:20  <Brot> [DevZone] 2cc train set - Bug #47 (Closed): add default language header to German translation (planetmaker) -

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