Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 2nd July 2009:
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01:33:33  <Brot6> Backup done! (Usage: 64M)
02:04:04  <Brot6> firs: Backup push to ssh:// initiated.
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06:15:18  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Revision 82: Change: add issue* to .hgignore to allow authors to have unversioned files... @ (by planetmaker)
06:15:18  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Revision 83: Feature: Add toyland bus, sugar, battery and lemonade trucks (part of issu... @ (by planetmaker)
06:19:19  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Feature #124: Sprites 601:760 (160) - Road trucks @ (by planetmaker)
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07:05:19  <planetmaker> hey andythenorth_ thanks for forwarding the PM
07:05:28  <andythenorth_> np
07:05:36  <planetmaker> was there already an answer to wally?
07:06:05  <planetmaker> I mean... given FIRS' license they may re-use anything they desire - on the condition of making their stuff also GPL.
07:06:27  <planetmaker> or do you plan to re-license it to them, so they can make again a closed source set?
07:06:31  <planetmaker> I'd find that kinda sad.
07:07:11  <andythenorth_> that's what I said.  If they don't want to use GPL I'd consider alternative licenses, but they'd have to get permission from all the other artists.
07:07:59  <planetmaker> it'd actually be cool, if you didn't. Only then opensource grfs can spread :) (just my 2ct)
07:09:25  <planetmaker> I guess the only graphics contributors are you, FooBar and Zephyris so far. So, if they get permission from you three, they can distribute your stuff along with their - again - under any proprietary license they usually emply for their north american stuff
07:10:01  <andythenorth_> XeryusTC has anti-aliased some buildings...and I've lifted lots of bits from ISR (under GPL)
07:10:05  <planetmaker> Well, I guess it need not be GPL, but personally I wouldn't support -NC or -ND :)
07:10:20  <planetmaker> haha :) Then it's difficult indeed.
07:10:36  <andythenorth_> They could get individual permissions from all artists
07:10:37  <planetmaker> ISR contributors cannot be tracked anymore, I guess.
07:10:42  <andythenorth_> not really
07:11:10  <planetmaker> andythenorth_, yes, my point is: I wouldn't give my permission if I were you ;)
07:11:27  <planetmaker> only if they use some free license which allows to completely re-use things again without asking
07:11:34  <planetmaker> and allow modifications, too
07:11:42  <planetmaker> like GPL or CC-BY, CC-BY-SA
07:11:56  <andythenorth_> well maybe I won't.  I'm not sure.  I don't want any of that CC nonsense, it's way complicated.  GPL is easy and elegan
07:11:57  <andythenorth_> t
07:11:59  <planetmaker> (I honestly hate the -ND thing)
07:12:19  <planetmaker> a -ND licensed work is basically lost :(
07:12:55  <planetmaker> well, you're one of the authors :) It's up to you to decide what it can be used for and under which conditions :)
07:13:14  <planetmaker> My point is: you make it easy for them. Why not require that they make it easy for you in return?
07:14:55  <andythenorth_> well I'll see what OzTrans says about licensing.  I find these control freak grf authors a bit weird, but hey, CanSet is good :)
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07:36:07  * yorick pushes makefile changes now
07:40:07  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: World Airliners Set - Revision 267: Change strings and use preprocessor magic some more @ (by yorick)
07:45:19  <planetmaker> Well, yes, they do a good job. A very good one actually. But this control-freak thing gets to me sort-of
08:02:21  <andythenorth_> :) I've got FIRS nightly building with stable grfcodec
08:02:29  <planetmaker> :)
08:02:57  <planetmaker> Too bad that it doesn't work with the nightly builds of those two, though. I'm really waiting for a response by DaleStan on that.
08:03:20  <Ammler> server uses grfcodec/nforenum trunk
08:03:34  <planetmaker> I'll try to compile the stable, native versions of grfcodec / nforenum for mac
08:03:44  <planetmaker> Ammler, but it could employ a makefile.local, too :)
08:03:56  <planetmaker> if you have, say renum-stable and grfcodec-stable
08:04:18  <planetmaker> For the sake of firs it would be an idea. Or our nightlies will fail
08:05:09  <planetmaker> or rather renum-3.4.6
08:06:04  <planetmaker> and grfcodec-0.9.10
08:08:15  <planetmaker> well. Makefile.local :)
08:27:08  <Ammler> what did fail with the grf yesterday?
08:27:36  <Ammler> and what is other with fris then other grfs?
08:31:30  <Ammler> [10:03] <planetmaker> Ammler, but it could employ a makefile.local, too   <-- I need it for the zip anyway
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08:56:37  <planetmaker> Ammler, the processing of some action2 with \wx80008000 like constructs fails with recent renums
08:56:57  <planetmaker> and why do you need a Makefile.local for zip?
08:57:29  <Ammler> well, your "default" didn't work there
08:57:45  <Ammler> 7za ...
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08:58:32  <Ammler> renum r2111 should be fine
08:58:48  <Ammler> that is the one before this new escape things
08:59:20  <planetmaker> ah, yes. the ZIP command needs to be adapted. Sure.
08:59:52  <Ammler> and grfcodec, do I really go back to stable?
09:00:09  <planetmaker> I guess you don't need to do that. Basically it's a failure of renum.
09:00:24  <planetmaker> I just tried to build stable renum here. It fails.
09:00:35  <Ammler> use 2111
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09:01:43  <planetmaker> hm... I'll try.
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10:04:09  <Brot6> opengfx: Backup push to ssh:// initiated.
10:29:13  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #295: industry production @ (by foobar)
10:30:27  <Ammler> planetmaker: feature #xx doesn't close a ticket :-)
10:46:05  <planetmaker> Ammler, I know. And it's intended
10:46:16  <planetmaker> There are missing still a lot of vehicles.
10:46:23  <planetmaker> which belong to that ticket
10:46:26  <Ammler> yes, that is why feature doesn't close
10:46:29  <planetmaker> :)
10:46:44  <planetmaker> issue was the keyword there, though, I think :)
10:46:48  <Ammler> no
10:46:50  <Ammler> feature
10:47:10  <planetmaker> is it the first word of the commit message or the word preceeding the #XX ?
10:47:11  <Ammler> well, issue is also one :-)
10:47:13  <planetmaker> I thought the latter
10:47:34  <Ammler> feature doesn't close either, :-P
10:47:40  <planetmaker> Yes, I know.
10:47:55  <Ammler> no, you don't, at least your commit didn't look like you did
10:48:02  <planetmaker> And to be sure to use the correct thing I usually look up :)
10:48:07  <Ammler> :-)
10:48:12  <planetmaker> I didn't want to close it.
10:48:23  <planetmaker> I only wanted to reference it. And that worked.
10:48:39  <Ammler> slows, feature doesN'T close
10:48:41  <planetmaker> Or what do you think I should have done?
10:49:07  <planetmaker> YES. I DO NOT want to close issue #124
10:49:13  <planetmaker> :)
10:49:37  <Ammler> Feature #XX: ... would have done the same
10:49:37  <planetmaker> sorry for shouting :)
10:49:54  <planetmaker> yes
10:50:19  <Ammler> nvm :-)
10:50:49  <Ammler> shall we move feature to close?
10:51:02  <planetmaker> not sure. Might be an idea.
10:51:14  <Ammler> your commit was exactly the reason, I didn't
10:51:23  <Ammler> but as you didn't trust it
10:51:41  <planetmaker> well. It's not I didn't trust it.
10:51:54  <FooBar_> There's a guide on this you know ;)
10:52:15  <planetmaker> :)
10:52:46  <FooBar_> I agree that a feature should close something though
10:52:47  <planetmaker> FooBar_, inded. And very well documented
10:53:13  <Ammler> FooBar_: the idea behind was, that a feature could have multiple commits
10:53:14  <FooBar_> If there's a reason not to close a 'feature' then it isn't a feature really...
10:53:27  <Ammler> like pm now did.
10:53:30  <planetmaker> FooBar_, well. Depends :)
10:53:39  <planetmaker> issue #124 has like a dozen vehicles.
10:53:48  <planetmaker> I added 4. Is it now a feature or not? :)
10:54:01  <FooBar_> I'm aware of that idea, but I think once you state 'feature' that it should indicate that that feature is actually done and not incomplete
10:54:02  <planetmaker> it definitely is a "not close" though.
10:54:06  <planetmaker> And it's IMO a feature.
10:54:13  <FooBar_> use add then
10:54:20  <planetmaker> Doesn't fit IMO
10:54:27  <planetmaker> I added something new.
10:54:47  <planetmaker> It can stand on its own. It's just not the complete (big) issue
10:55:14  <Ammler> FooBar_: the commit is a feature
10:55:27  <Ammler> but it isn't everything of the ticket
10:55:33  <FooBar_> lets see what the guide says about that. Since the guide reflects my opinion anyways I might as well look my opinion up there...
10:55:40  <planetmaker> :D
10:55:47  <Ammler> :-)
10:55:54  <planetmaker> It agrees with what I did.
10:56:12  <FooBar_> well have I's a feature indeed...
10:56:13  <Ammler> if there wouldn't be a ticket, feature is the word too.
10:56:55  <FooBar_> maybe then add "closed" to the closing keyword list, so you can do a "Feature closed #XX"
10:57:08  <planetmaker> :)
10:57:23  <FooBar_> or maybe is "completed" even better...
10:57:29  <planetmaker> I think a commit message like
10:57:31  <FooBar_> "Feature completed #XX"
10:58:36  <planetmaker> Feature #124: Add X, Y and Z. This closes #124
10:58:38  <planetmaker> is fine
10:58:41  <planetmaker> and already possible
10:58:46  <FooBar_> agreed
10:59:00  <planetmaker> So I think no change is necessary.
11:00:04  <FooBar_> well then it's settled
11:00:07  <FooBar_> :)
11:00:09  <planetmaker> :)
11:01:13  <planetmaker> btw Ammler : I didn't write Feature #124 because then there'd be more commit messages with that beginning. But not all IMO would be Feature #124. All together only. So... that's why I wrote what I wrote
11:01:50  <FooBar_> anyways, back to the cement plant...
11:02:06  <planetmaker> :)
11:02:51  <Ammler> planetmaker: that is the reason, it would be nice.
11:03:22  <planetmaker> it = ?
11:03:34  <planetmaker> it = "Feature closes issue"?
11:03:42  * FooBar_ wonders how many industry tiles can be used...
11:04:20  <Ammler> hmm, we move feature to cloe
11:04:36  <Ammler> and if you don't like to close a feature with commit, do it like pm
11:04:50  * planetmaker will be interested in the resolution of Foobar's wondering, too
11:05:04  <planetmaker> Ammler, ok. Change it. I don't really mind.
11:05:20  <planetmaker> actually I can find arguments for both :)
11:05:52  <Ammler> well, your commit the reason, my idea is useless
11:05:58  <Ammler> is*
11:06:28  <Ammler> he, I am even not sure, if the number needs to be adjacent to the keyword.
11:06:44  <planetmaker> :) I hope it's necessary.
11:06:50  <Ammler> we will see
11:07:04  <planetmaker> Btw, Ammler renum 2111 doesn't compile firs here, either.
11:07:10  <planetmaker> Or do I need to delete some files?
11:07:18  <FooBar_> I think I'll just assign one larger than AE (the last TTD tile ID) and see what happens...
11:08:17  <planetmaker> :)
11:11:04  <Ammler> pm, but what about the nightly grf?
11:11:24  <planetmaker> I don't know. What does your compile log tell you?
11:11:27  <Ammler> hmm, maybe the bug is because of that?
11:11:36  <planetmaker> My current renums will produce a not-proper firs grf
11:11:56  <Ammler> I remake
11:13:51  <planetmaker> Ammler, I get a number of lines like
11:13:59  <planetmaker> The sprite following sprite 453 could not be processed.
11:14:37  <planetmaker> which is a bit of a pain as I don't have any other binaries which avoid this...
11:14:49  <planetmaker> And I cannot produce others obviously either.
11:14:56  <Ammler> yes
11:14:57  <planetmaker> well. Not obviously. But I cannot :)
11:15:00  <Ammler> same on the server
11:15:26  <Ammler> and that is why?
11:15:34  <planetmaker> On the one hand, it makes me a bit happy that I obvously (sic!) didn't mess up mac and windows compilation.
11:15:50  <planetmaker> But otoh... I'd like to have a renum which works with that nfo code.
11:16:15  <Ammler> is the nfo code like it should be?
11:16:16  <planetmaker> if that = "cannot produce binaries": compilation fails
11:16:34  <Ammler> maybe foobar meesed it up, you know him ;-)
11:16:36  <planetmaker> if that = "new renum fails on firs": dunno.
11:16:40  <planetmaker> :P
11:17:11  <planetmaker> we need input from DaleStan.
11:17:12  <Ammler> he tends to make silly experiments ;-)
11:17:41  <FooBar_> hold it there. I do mess things up (like industries producing way too much cargo) but I also do make sure my code is up to spec :)
11:18:05  <FooBar_> And I'll modify the spec if necessary
11:18:08  <FooBar_> :P
11:18:29  <Ammler> hmm
11:18:41  <Ammler> but maybe the bug you reported is because of that renum bug?
11:18:54  <Ammler> the nightly is obvious broken
11:19:00  <planetmaker> lool @ FooBar_
11:19:08  <planetmaker> "I AM THE SPECS" ;)
11:19:38  <planetmaker> Which bug report?
11:20:29  <planetmaker> There's only one concerning this in the renum thread
11:22:03  <Ammler> no the bug FooBar_ added to firs tracker
11:22:33  <planetmaker> link?
11:22:43  <FooBar_> that would surprise me really, as the code is legal but produces silly outcome
11:23:04  <FooBar_> It's a few words I didn't put in little endian resulting in very high values...
11:23:12  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Code review: #7 @ (by Ammler)
11:23:27  <Ammler> planetmaker: ^ for you :-)
11:23:56  <planetmaker> :O
11:24:02  <planetmaker> yes, I used vim
11:24:30  <Ammler> vim has some nice "hidden" features to repeat same things ;-)
11:25:30  <planetmaker> yes, I know. Sometimes I trigger them. They always pop up at the most unwanted times.
11:25:44  <planetmaker> And I don't know how to trigger it :P
11:25:50  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 123: Fix r105: The first sprite is 4 bytes long, not 444... @ (by planetmaker)
11:27:12  <Ammler> and clos the review...
11:29:02  <planetmaker> done
11:30:33  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Code review: #7(Closed) @ (by planetmaker)
11:30:53  <Ammler> hmm, should also autoclose somehow :-)
11:31:27  <planetmaker> :) yes
11:31:56  <planetmaker> We should have a button "Develop, code, draw and encode newgrf"
11:32:13  <planetmaker> you just put in a parameter like "train", "industry" and alike and it does the rest for us :P
11:32:17  <Ammler> ?
11:32:28  <Ammler> indeed
11:32:30  <planetmaker> sorry. It's too warm here and i'm in a funny mood ;)
11:32:38  <Ammler> shall I open the project for you?
11:33:02  <planetmaker> :D
11:33:30  <planetmaker> nah. It's closed source. I'll patent it when I'm done.
11:36:22  <planetmaker> because it will describe a general method to realize a thought.
11:36:45  <planetmaker> So any thought which leads to a physical result will be covered by it. 1ct per such thought as royalty is just fine.
11:42:46  <FooBar_> I think I'll better stop thinking then... otherwise it'll cost me a fortune :P
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11:43:06  <planetmaker> :)
11:43:23  <planetmaker> Well... I grant you a life-time long special license :)
11:43:53  <planetmaker> But it will only become effective, if you finish FIRS within two years, or you'll have to pay, too ;)
11:44:45  <FooBar_> in that case, can I define 'finished' then?
11:44:52  <planetmaker> :D
11:45:27  <FooBar_> In that case I finished it yesterday, I'm only improving now...
11:45:52  <planetmaker> nah. Nekomaster defines "finished" :P
11:45:54  * planetmaker hides
11:46:15  <FooBar_> I'm improving the cement plant now, as it was invisible previously...
11:46:56  <planetmaker> hehe :)
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12:16:27  <Ammler> planetmaker: FooBar_, isn't it possible to make the nfo in a way nforenum works?
12:17:13  <Ammler> do I really need to grab for old binaries just for firs?
12:18:12  <andythenorth_> Ammler: yes
12:18:13  <FooBar_> Yes, but that would mean that I have to convert some things to hex/little endian myself and I don't fancy doing that. It workes in previous versions of renum and the specs say that I can use it, so obviously renum is broken...
12:18:18  <andythenorth_> until renum stops being broken
12:18:27  <FooBar_> :)
12:18:51  <Ammler> and the stable is the last version which worked?
12:18:55  <andythenorth_> did I mention renum is broken?
12:19:00  <FooBar_> I'm sorry, but I'm not changing perfectly good code only to support a broken renum...
12:19:05  <andythenorth_> and grfcodec is also broken
12:19:26  <Ammler> FooBar_: of course not.
12:19:44  <FooBar_> Ammler: I haven't tested anything but the latest stable and the latest release available at devzone/mz
12:19:53  <Ammler> mäh :-(
12:20:31  <Ammler> that sucks
12:23:50  <FooBar_> There's action colours in the cement plant. How silly :P
12:25:44  <FooBar_> not anymore...
12:26:00  <FooBar_> gotta love photoshop actions :)
12:26:52  <Ammler> GIMP!
12:28:00  <Ammler> well, as soon as it supports layers, it is fine :-)
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12:34:02  <FooBar_> should I care about bounding boxes being not exactly the right size?
12:35:47  <Ammler> FooBar_: how do you align a new sprite?
12:36:57  <FooBar_> I make all sprites the same size and put the ground tile (or where it should sit) at the very bottom of the sprite. With all bounding boxes being the same I only have to figure out the offsets for one sprite to get everything right
12:37:28  <Ammler> I was a bit confused as I coded BornAcorns trains
12:37:32  <FooBar_> Once we have a working grfcodec that can crop, it should do the cropping.
12:38:21  <FooBar_> Well for trains you don't have to set the bounding boxes. For industries you have.
12:38:47  <Ammler> but to what is the x and y offset referenced?
12:39:47  <Ammler> I just took around the half of the sprite and it seems to be ok.
12:40:57  <Ammler> but it isn't that easy, if the sprite has even sizes
12:41:36  <Ammler> so it looks like you need SprtieAligner or ingame tests
12:42:44  <FooBar_> For vehicles the middle of the bounding box, so approx half of the sprite sizes is correct. For other sprites it's the bottom of the furthest corner of the tile
12:44:15  <Ammler> well, SpriteAligner was a nice help.
12:45:00  <FooBar_> For trains it is indeed. It's virtually no use for other things at the moment though.
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12:51:54  <planetmaker> andythenorth_, what's broken with grfcodec?
12:53:23  <andythenorth_> There's action colours in the cement plant. How silly.  BlameBot says: Zephyris :)
12:54:00  <andythenorth_> planetmaker: grfcodec chokes on the same sprite numbers that renum does
12:54:05  <andythenorth_> 'stable' grfcodec works fine
12:54:52  <Ammler> what is the reason, not using stable renum and codec?
12:55:28  <andythenorth_> mac versions
12:55:32  <andythenorth_> for one reason
12:56:53  <FooBar_> Cement plant is mostly done I think. Screenshop:
12:56:55  <Webster> Title: Transport Tycoon Forums View topic - FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Releases (at
12:58:31  <planetmaker> andythenorth_, even if you use stable renum?
12:59:14  <andythenorth_> didn't try that way around.  tbh, I have it working fine with stable, so I didn't poke further.  I'm assuming it will get resolved at some point.
12:59:18  <planetmaker> Ammler, and some bug fixes which were done meanwhile. stable renum is about 200 revisions older than head
12:59:34  <planetmaker> andythenorth_, because, of course, if you get broken nfo, grfcodec cannot do a thing.
13:00:05  <planetmaker> latest renum already comments out those sprites. Grfcodec then has no chance to code them.
13:00:26  <planetmaker> My guess is that only renum needs a bugfix
13:00:44  <planetmaker> unless you show me fine nfo code which grfcodec doesn't like :)
13:00:50  <andythenorth_> possibly.  Makes sense.  IIRC I am using a relatively old renum anyway (via crossover)
13:01:05  <planetmaker> hm... I thought you used the one I produced?
13:01:31  <planetmaker> well... no point, if it fails, though, obviously.
13:01:44  <andythenorth_> I'll need to check - am at work, so probably not right now
13:01:44  <planetmaker> but grfcodec should be fine.
13:01:47  <planetmaker> :)
13:02:36  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #296: Should primary industries exhaust their resources and c... @ (by andythenorth)
13:07:27  <FooBar_> old renum + new grfcodec doesn't work either...
13:09:23  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #296: Should primary industries exhaust their resources and c... @ (by foobar)
13:12:34  <Ammler> YES, THEY SHOULD :-P
13:13:08  <Ammler> well parameter wise ;-)
13:13:36  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 124: Feature: Cement Plant @ (by foobar)
13:13:36  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #296: Should primary industries exhaust their resources and c... @ (by andythenorth)
13:13:39  <Ammler> coopers wouldn't like it either.
13:19:40  <planetmaker> FooBar_, then you should report that in the grfcodec thread, too :)
13:20:26  <FooBar_> And risk the chance of double posting? :P
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13:21:52  <FooBar_> Whenever DaleStan gets back from holidays he'll read all my problems in the renum thread, that's more than enough for now.
13:22:25  <FooBar_> I'll start bugging him in more topics if he doesn't fix it soon enough after he gets back
13:22:28  <planetmaker> FooBar_, it's a different programme
13:22:44  <planetmaker> and you get different error messages, I assume.
13:23:05  <planetmaker> I haven't tested that combination myself so far either - mostly due to the lack of a properly old renum.
13:23:40  <FooBar_> True, but errors are much alike: both have to do with the escape sequences I like to use
13:24:00  <planetmaker> ok
13:24:21  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #296: Should primary industries exhaust their resources and c... @ (by planetmaker)
13:24:26  <planetmaker> Then maybe edit your post and mention that grfcodec has the same / a similar error, if fed by the input of old renum
13:24:39  <FooBar_> Either way, we'll have to wait for him to get back from what he's doing.
13:24:40  <planetmaker> he likes error messages verbose :)
13:24:48  <FooBar_> That's already in the post if i'm not mistaken
13:25:27  <FooBar_> Yes, I described three cases:
13:25:33  <planetmaker> sorry, yes
13:25:39  <planetmaker> My memory :)
13:25:48  <FooBar_> - renum r2124 with no grfcodec as I don't get to that point
13:26:00  <FooBar_> - stable renum with new grfcodec gives error
13:26:06  <FooBar_> - both stable works fine
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13:29:27  <DJNekkid> hi guys
13:29:46  <planetmaker> Hey DJNekkid
13:29:59  <DJNekkid> how r u? :)
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13:31:08  <planetmaker> FooBar_, btw, I completely agree with you wrt the exhaustion of ressources
13:31:22  <FooBar_> thanks :)
13:31:31  <DJNekkid> copy/paste plx :p
13:31:32  <FooBar_> Hi DJ
13:31:32  <planetmaker> 10°C above feel-well temperature here, DJNekkid ...
13:31:55  <DJNekkid> like me earlier this week?
13:32:09  <planetmaker> like the whole week here.
13:32:22  <DJNekkid> here it's just 2 or 3 above such now...
13:32:24  <planetmaker> but else, yes, I'm fine, thanks :)
13:32:30  <planetmaker> How're you?
13:32:47  <DJNekkid> sitting in an AC'ed ferry atm :P
13:33:03  <DJNekkid> looking how to code the ICM better
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13:35:15  <planetmaker> he :)
13:39:16  <FooBar_> darn, andy just left...
13:39:48  <FooBar_> I'd like to know what to code next, as all two industries marked "sprites:done" are coded now...
13:40:01  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #296: Should primary industries exhaust their resources a... @ (by andythenorth)
13:40:01  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #296: Should primary industries exhaust their resources a... @ (by foobar)
13:40:01  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #296: Should primary industries exhaust their resources a... @ (by andythenorth)
13:40:03  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #296: Should primary industries exhaust their resources a... @ (by planetmaker)
13:40:07  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #296 (Feedback): Should primary industries exhaust their ... @ (by foobar)
13:41:13  <DJNekkid> FooBar_: did NS, some time after 1990, add a 2nd ICM-wagon?
13:41:28  <DJNekkid> motor-wagon-wagon-end head
13:41:28  <DJNekkid> ?
13:42:01  <FooBar_> ICM... let's see...
13:43:30  <FooBar_> yes. The thee-part EMUs were introduced in 1997 and a four-part ICM was introduced in 1990
13:43:41  <DJNekkid> that i know
13:43:42  <FooBar_> Those were actually newly built and not just a wagon added
13:43:55  <DJNekkid> 1997 = 1977
13:43:57  <DJNekkid> but;
13:44:07  <FooBar_> yes 1977 ;)
13:44:11  <DJNekkid> did they, at some point, "upgrade" the 3parters to 4parters?
13:44:25  <DJNekkid> or are the old 3parters still 3parters?
13:45:22  <FooBar_> no, that didn't happen afaik
13:45:27  <DJNekkid> oki
13:45:29  <DJNekkid> good :p
13:45:47  <FooBar_> the current three parters are still the old three parters, although most of them modernised at the moment
13:45:48  <DJNekkid> they only changed the doors from about august 2005 ?
13:46:06  <DJNekkid> (ifmsc)
13:46:15  <DJNekkid> (ifmsmc that is)
13:46:19  <DJNekkid> (glorified iirc)
13:46:56  <FooBar_> they stopped using the doors between two connected ICMs on october 31 of 2005.
13:47:13  <FooBar_> The doors still remained in place though
13:47:18  <DJNekkid> october was it! :)
13:47:34  <DJNekkid> arent they welded together?
13:47:39  <DJNekkid> i think i saw that on a picture
13:47:51  <DJNekkid> or changed for a more "solid plate" type thing?
13:48:08  <FooBar_> In april 2007 the first modernised version was put into service which had those doors removed and replaced by a metal plate
13:48:19  <DJNekkid> oki...
13:48:31  <FooBar_> So april 2007 is when you want to introduce the new livery for the 3-part models
13:48:41  <DJNekkid> oki...
13:49:05  <DJNekkid> you mean _from_ :)
13:49:16  <DJNekkid> i _plan_ to actually make it kind of variable
13:49:20  <DJNekkid> depending on the age of the vehicle
13:49:48  <FooBar_> the 4-part models will be modernised in 2010 according to schedule
13:49:50  <DJNekkid> and it will span over a couple of years
13:50:08  <DJNekkid> pre 1990's in 2007-8 and 9
13:50:21  <DJNekkid> and the 4parts from 2010 and a couple of years ahead
13:50:31  <FooBar_> That be great!
13:50:40  <DJNekkid> but new ICMs they build after 2007 will be "modern" ones
13:50:53  <DJNekkid> it's already done, but the old code is so ugly, and _kind_ of buggy
13:51:20  <FooBar_> The "solid plate" is actually a piece of plastic :P
13:51:46  <DJNekkid> no doubt!
13:52:36  <FooBar_> One or two trains received a metal plate after being involved in an accident where the doors were damaged, before they started modernising the trains
13:53:03  <DJNekkid> stupid drivers!
13:53:05  <DJNekkid> :p
13:53:38  <FooBar_> Also make sure to decrease the weight of a consist by a ton for the modernised versions :P
13:54:38  <DJNekkid> thats doable :)
13:54:51  <DJNekkid> and also, deincrease the running cost by one factor or something :)
13:55:16  <DJNekkid> i swear, this ICM is gonna be the most advanced code (or atleast long for one train) in history of newgrf
13:55:26  <DJNekkid> it already is 544 lines long
13:56:06  <FooBar_> running cost should be decreased by around EUR 1400 if you want to do it properly... :P
13:56:35  <DJNekkid> depending on the original running cost i guess... but the plans are there
13:56:47  <DJNekkid> i just need to make a proper spreadsheet for the dutch-set
13:56:47  <DJNekkid> i had one made
13:56:49  <FooBar_> 544 lines? that's a lot., Current FIRS is 'only' 2442 lines and 516 sprites...
13:57:07  <DJNekkid> but the computer crashed, twice, so i could not recope it
13:57:15  <FooBar_> that sucks man
13:57:51  <FooBar_> Put it in the repo once you have a start ;)
13:58:09  <DJNekkid> the current icm is already there
13:58:53  <DJNekkid> and i need 9 (!) sprites for one train
14:00:19  <FooBar_> Also charge 2 mln euros for the upgrade of such a train... :P
14:01:16  <FooBar_> I wonder if that's possible by massively increasing the running costs for just one month...
14:01:39  <DJNekkid> sure is
14:02:16  <DJNekkid> combination of var2 00 and CB36
14:02:24  <DJNekkid> 00	W	current date (counted as days from 1920)
14:02:56  <DJNekkid> "if between <this> and <that>, use <cb36>, else <use normal>
14:02:59  <DJNekkid> "
14:03:00  <DJNekkid> :=)
14:03:33  <DJNekkid> probably the easiest one
14:03:42  <DJNekkid>
14:03:44  <FooBar_> Interesting... I don't think users would like it though :P
14:03:52  <DJNekkid> they would not even notice!
14:04:04  <Brot6> firs: Backup push to ssh:// initiated.
14:04:06  <DJNekkid> but now i got to drive for 1hour...
14:04:11  <DJNekkid> ttu then :)
14:04:20  <FooBar_> they wouldn't know the cause, but probably wonder "hey, where did my cash go?" :P
14:04:20  <DJNekkid> or ... i might even do some talking on the road :P
14:04:57  <DJNekkid> however, it woudnt be more massive then 1/12th of max cost
14:05:23  <DJNekkid> 0D to ff
14:06:38  <DJNekkid> but with proper high running cost base and similar bad resolution would it be possible
14:07:47  <planetmaker> :P Basically you then want to sell all those vehicles prior to that month and then buy new ones the month after :)
14:13:04  <FooBar_> "bad resolution" :P
14:13:38  <DJNekkid> you know, the steps between the running costs...
14:13:49  <DJNekkid> ets say its at most 4mill...
14:13:54  <FooBar_> i know, I just had a laugh about it :P
14:14:00  <DJNekkid> 4.000.000/255
14:14:20  <DJNekkid> what would u call it=
14:14:20  <DJNekkid> ?
14:15:05  <FooBar_> dunno... "bad resolution"...
14:15:25  <DJNekkid> :)
14:17:42  <DJNekkid> hehe
14:22:03  <DJNekkid> if you drive a ... lets say car at 300m/s, and you fire a gun backwards with 300m/s mussle velocity, would the bullet just fall to the ground?
14:25:27  <FooBar_> that's an interesting question... I'd say no. It's a bit similar to the airplane on the conveyor belt...
14:26:01  <DJNekkid> never hesard that one
14:26:13  <FooBar_> On the other hand, if you fire an arrow while riding a horse, the impact force is higher thus is the velocity...
14:26:33  <FooBar_> ...than when firing the arrow from standstill at the same distance
14:26:51  <DJNekkid> indeed, as the arrow already have kinetic energy
14:26:54  <FooBar_> Mythbusters ;) Actually both
14:27:15  <FooBar_> In this case, the bullet has the same kinetic energy as the arrow, but in the opposite direction
14:27:35  <DJNekkid> yup
14:29:45  <FooBar_> Try throwing a crumpled up piece of paper from a moving car to see what happens...
14:30:02  <FooBar_> You might need a high-speed camera with that though
14:34:43  <DJNekkid> and, a missile fired from an airplane have a longer range then from a groundbsased launcher, even neglecting the heightdifference
14:39:46  <FooBar_> Yes, though I still find it hard to believe that the bullet would just plummet to earth at the point it was fired...
14:41:30  <DJNekkid> what if the musslevotity were lower, lets say half of the vehicle?
14:43:57  <FooBar_> following the analogy it should pass you, which obviously doesn't happen...
14:44:21  <FooBar_> I think one can state that the car is standing still at the very moment the bullet is fired
14:49:43  <DJNekkid> well.... another filosofical question... two vehivcels are, lets say 50 meters appart, traveling in the same direction (paralel).
14:50:09  <DJNekkid> but both are traveling at the speed of light
14:51:04  <DJNekkid> would you be able to see the other craft from the one you are in?
14:53:48  <FooBar_> yes
14:55:11  <FooBar_> Unless vision directonality is bent due to the high speed...
14:55:13  <DJNekkid> 50 meters behind yes? :)
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14:58:09  <planetmaker> FooBar_, Airplane on conveyor belt and gun fired from person on conveyor belt are different.
14:58:46  <planetmaker> Airplane doesn't use the ground to propell itself, but the air. Which is not moving wrt earth. Just its wheels will roll faster
14:58:50  <FooBar_> yes, that's why I brought the arrow from horse in
14:59:07  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 125: Feature: Waste Collection Point @ (by foobar)
14:59:10  <planetmaker> OTOH the bullet, it will have no velocity wrt the air (assuming that you don't drag the air with you
14:59:13  <FooBar_> IRC doesn't have an undo function... :P
14:59:23  <FooBar_> there we have it, a waste collection point :)
14:59:34  * planetmaker drops the bullet there :P
15:00:28  * FooBar_ thinks the waste collection point is rather useless at the moment...
15:00:52  <planetmaker> no no. For all those useless thoughts before they incur a charge :P
15:02:00  <FooBar_> I thought only thoughs that accomplished something need to be paid for. The waste collection point doesn't accomplish anything at the moment
15:02:04  <FooBar_> it just sits there :P
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15:19:02  <DJNekkid> btw, did u look at the old icm code?
15:19:11  <DJNekkid> mmm! beer!
15:25:34  <DJNekkid> and planetmaker: why dont u (also) add that nice banner i made :p
15:28:32  <planetmaker> DJNekkid, lazyness I guess :)
15:28:51  <DJNekkid> or that "not so nice banner" :)
15:28:51  <planetmaker> I actually thought about it already.
15:29:09  <DJNekkid> i've never claimed to be a good gfx artist :)
15:29:13  <planetmaker> It doesn't fit quite the style of the other openttdcoop banner, though IMO
15:29:34  <planetmaker> I updateded 2cctrainset's makefile.
15:29:41  <DJNekkid> i think i might have an idea :)
15:29:51  <planetmaker> It should have now all bugs that the firs system has now, too :P
15:30:02  <DJNekkid> hehe!
15:30:17  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: 2cc train set - Revision 214: Change: update the Makefile to the same level as FIRS r123: 2cctrai... @ (by planetmaker)
15:30:17  <planetmaker> oh, plus a few more introduced by copy&paste :)
15:32:06  <FooBar_> DJNekkid: I didn't look at the old ICM code. I probably will not look at the new one either ;) I have code issues of my own... :P
15:32:23  <FooBar_> Like what to code next... :S
15:32:39  <DJNekkid> hehe ... i thought, just for inspiration :)
15:32:39  <DJNekkid> hehe
15:32:45  <DJNekkid> the new one is gonna an art :p
15:33:02  <FooBar_> Maybe once I start a recode of the dutch tramset...
15:37:13  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: 2cc train set - Revision 215: Change: don't ignore all files which start with 2cc when using 'hg st' @ (by planetmaker)
15:47:38  <DJNekkid> var2 bitshift of 02 would be a length of 4 right?
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15:58:49  <DJNekkid> this is looking good :p
16:02:08  <FooBar_> andythenorth_: which industry do you want me to code next?
16:02:33  <FooBar_> The ones marked "sprites:done" are already done now...
16:02:35  <andythenorth_> incinerator
16:02:40  <DJNekkid> ye sit would, 2^2 = 2
16:02:46  <andythenorth_> recycling plant
16:02:58  <andythenorth_> then the waste chain is mostly done (also needs the scrapyard)
16:03:43  <FooBar_> OK. I think it's best to code sprites that are unlikely to change much first
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16:08:22  <DJNekkid> FooBar_: do you code with nice commented stuff?
16:08:38  <FooBar_> yes, almost every line is commented
16:08:52  <DJNekkid> i've never done any industries
16:09:10  <DJNekkid> and examples are always good:)
16:09:14  <FooBar_> Me neither until earlier this week :P
16:09:48  <DJNekkid> i did have a look at the wiki a while (last fall perhaps), and it were written in gibberish back then...
16:09:58  <FooBar_> I just started reading the manual and gave it a go...
16:09:59  <DJNekkid> it might be better now, or optionally, i may understand it better :)
16:10:49  <FooBar_> The latter might be more true. The industry tile page was last updated 2,5 years ago
16:10:59  <FooBar_> for instance
16:11:16  <DJNekkid> it were mostly ment as a joke to myself :)
16:11:23  <DJNekkid> or ... joke on my behalf
16:16:21  <FooBar_> Basic industry coding isn't really that complicated once you get the hang of it.
16:17:10  <FooBar_> I'm doing the basic stuff now (i.e. coding like TTD industry without advanced features), once that's done I'm going to try and understand the callback stuff.
16:17:39  <FooBar_> If the understanding part of that is successful, I'll revisit all industries and implement the more advanced stuff
16:18:03  <Brot6> OpenGFX: update from r81 to r83, starting nightly compile
16:18:34  <Brot6> OpenGFX: nightlies compile finished with 2 errors:
16:18:37  <FooBar_> I'll be interested to see if it compiles FIRS as well...
16:19:22  <planetmaker> FooBar_, it won't...
16:19:23  <planetmaker> :(
16:19:46  <FooBar_> due to those renum/grfcodec issues?
16:20:07  <planetmaker> yes. Unless Ammler did magic and find an old version
16:22:20  <FooBar_> I can upload one manually...
16:23:15  <planetmaker> well... it will be needed, I guess, if a nightly is desired.
16:23:31  <planetmaker> Well. It will still build a grf. But it will chocke on those action2s
16:23:48  <planetmaker> and just skip them - which in a result may be quite the opposite of pretty
16:24:11  <FooBar_> Well, I added some new stuff before fixing a reported bug thus failing the joel list, so I think a nightly is in order not to fail on all points...
16:24:35  <planetmaker> well...
16:25:48  <FooBar_> It's there. I probably don't get to fixing those bugs today anyways...
16:26:06  <planetmaker>
16:26:13  <planetmaker> ^ my compile log
16:26:24  <planetmaker> and the server got the same binaries and OS.
16:26:59  <FooBar_> I don't think that results in a fully functional grf...
16:27:08  <planetmaker> me neither.
16:27:34  <FooBar_> The one I uploaded compiled without complaints, so I suppose that one is alright.
16:27:52  <FooBar_> Hopefully DaleStan is back soon to fix it :P
16:28:14  <planetmaker> :)
16:28:45  <planetmaker> indeed I hope so, too
16:29:12  <planetmaker> anyway... party time. So enjoy your evening :)
16:29:34  <FooBar_> you to ;)
16:29:41  <FooBar_> too*
16:29:50  <FooBar_> :)
16:29:58  <planetmaker> :) I'm sure I will :)
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16:37:08  <Ammler> no nightly :-(
16:38:33  *** andythenorth_ has quit IRC
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16:45:13  <Ammler> FooBar_: do I really need to search for acient nforenum?
16:45:23  <Ammler> or do you have a link for me?
16:46:48  <FooBar_> I have a Windows version if that's any use...
16:46:52  <Ammler> ok, I see, 1795
16:46:56  <FooBar_> Let me see if I can find something else...
16:47:42  <FooBar_> nah, you have to build it yourself. r1795 indeed is the latest stable
16:57:16  <Ammler> and grfcodec?
16:58:58  <Ammler> mäh
16:59:06  <Ammler> my boost is too new now
16:59:08  <Ammler> :-(
17:00:35  <FooBar_> for grfcodec you can get a linux build here:
17:00:55  <Ammler> I try the windows veryion with wine
17:17:12  <Brot6> firs nightly done :-P
17:20:09  <Brot6> 0b33d47ba8630779379e22ab0ba317f0  firs.grf
17:21:06  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 126: Feature: Incinerator @ (by foobar)
17:21:53  <Ammler> FooBar_: do you have same md5sum ^
17:23:27  <FooBar_> that's an r120?
17:23:42  <Ammler> FooBar_: yes
17:24:59  <FooBar_> yes, I have the same, so congrats! :)
17:25:41  <Ammler> :P
17:26:00  <Ammler> ugly Makefile.local
17:26:19  <Ammler> ZIP_FLAGS      = -tzip -mx9
17:26:30  <Ammler> NFORENUM = wine renum.exe
17:26:39  <Ammler> GRFCODEC = grfcodec-stable
17:26:47  <Ammler> ZIP      = 7za a
17:26:48  <FooBar_> lol :P
17:27:29  <FooBar_> but it works, which is most important at the moment until recodec/grfnum are fixed :)
17:27:53  <Ammler> indeed
17:28:02  <Ammler> tomorrow, it should be done automatically
17:28:20  <Ammler> do you have a shedule proposal?
17:28:40  <FooBar_> once a day is sufficient :P
17:29:01  <Ammler> well, I add it to opengfx then
17:29:03  <FooBar_> right after OpenGFX would be fine I guess
17:29:09  <FooBar_> :)
17:32:07  <FooBar_> I'm off, bye!
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17:41:45  <DJNekkid> my god this will be unreadable when decoded!
18:04:03  <Brot6> 2cctrainset: Backup push to ssh:// initiated.
18:04:11  <Brot6> firs: Backup push to ssh:// initiated.
18:15:31  <Ammler> DJNekkid: use -C
18:16:10  <Ammler> CC_FLAGS       = -E -C - <
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18:19:51  <Ammler> [20:15] <Ammler> DJNekkid: use -C
18:19:52  <Ammler> [20:16] <Ammler> CC_FLAGS       = -E -C - <
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18:20:22  <DJ_Nekkid> use what?
18:20:35  <Ammler> to have the final nfo readable
18:20:46  <DJ_Nekkid> does that help?
18:21:06  <Ammler> what will be unreadable?
18:21:19  <DJ_Nekkid> it's not _my_ problem tho, its the dude who is gonna decomepiles problem :)
18:21:52  <Ammler> who should do that
18:22:05  <Ammler> he can use your source :P
18:22:16  <DJ_Nekkid> but he might not know that :)
18:36:58  <DJ_Nekkid> i think that might be it!
18:40:13  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: Dutch Train Set - Revision 21: added express pax wagon @ (by DJ Nekkid)
18:40:13  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: Dutch Train Set - Revision 22: added the new icm, but it lacks gfx yet @ (by DJ Nekkid)
19:01:41  <Ammler> ah, dutch train set
19:03:36  <andythenorth_> the revised way that make install applies file names is *much* better for testing grfs
19:03:38  <andythenorth_> :)
19:04:01  <Ammler> ?
19:04:33  <Ammler> make bundle or release?
19:04:33  <andythenorth_> no longer appends the build number to the grf file
19:04:40  <andythenorth_> make install
19:04:45  <Ammler> better isn't?
19:04:58  <andythenorth_> much better for me
19:05:29  <Ammler> hmm
19:05:38  <Ammler> doesn't add revision anymore, either?
19:05:55  <Ammler> I only use make bundl
19:05:56  <Ammler> e
19:06:19  <andythenorth_> well make install works great for me
19:06:22  <andythenorth_> :D
19:14:04  <andythenorth_> Ammler: did you get renum?
19:14:30  <Ammler> I used the windows renum
19:14:38  <Ammler> with win
19:14:39  <Ammler> e
19:14:50  <andythenorth_> that's what I use too
19:15:05  <Ammler> (my right hand is faster, currently) ;-)
19:15:52  <Ammler> NFORENUM = wine renum.exe
19:16:18  <andythenorth_> my path is about the same, except much longer :0
19:19:06  <Ammler> [20:35] <Brot6> [19:20:08] 0b33d47ba8630779379e22ab0ba317f0  firs.grf <-- same md5sum as foobar
19:19:18  <Ammler> (r120)
19:19:40  <Ammler> ups
19:19:47  <Ammler> I should have updated
19:19:50  <Ammler> he
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20:15:19  <DJ_Nekkid> damn, first draft didnt work totally as intended :(
20:15:45  <Ammler> oh, you call it draft :P
20:16:00  <DJ_Nekkid> not _to_ far off tho
20:16:14  <DJ_Nekkid> if it did work, it werent a draft :9
20:17:18  <DJ_Nekkid> it almost works tho
20:20:42  <Ammler> DJ_Nekkid: are you sure, you are allowed to work with dutch set?
20:20:55  <DJ_Nekkid> what do u mean?
20:20:55  <Ammler> I mean, it is ND license ;-)
20:21:03  <DJ_Nekkid> hehe
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20:31:25  <andythenorth_> Small prize for the first person to recreate the movie Tremors using HEQS and FIRS...
20:31:45  <andythenorth_> You'll need a bulldozer, a waste dump, the desert landscape
20:31:54  <andythenorth_> oh and a fricking enormous great worm monster
20:38:11  <Ammler> :-)
20:39:22  <DJ_Nekkid> work god damn it!
20:45:54  <DJ_Nekkid> i hate the ICM
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21:10:48  <Ammler> XeryusTC: did you make the svn branch?
21:10:55  <XeryusTC> nope, not yet :P
21:10:58  <DJ_Nekkid> im gonna give up
21:11:02  <Ammler> but the login works?
21:11:14  <DJ_Nekkid> that one really needs to be tested on an individual basis
21:11:20  <Ammler> DJ_Nekkid: NO!
21:11:24  <XeryusTC> no clue either :P
21:11:31  <DJ_Nekkid> i think i'll even split it up to distinguised files
21:13:21  <DJ_Nekkid> or just fu** it, and use the old one
21:13:24  <DJ_Nekkid> it works...
21:15:03  <DJ_Nekkid> is tt-forums down?
21:15:30  <XeryusTC> seems so indeed
21:16:08  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: Dutch Train Set - Revision 23: back to the old icm file @ (by DJ Nekkid)
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21:19:17  <DJ_Nekkid> amazing, something i didnt find on piratebay
21:21:05  <Ammler> what?
21:21:21  <DJ_Nekkid> season premiere of penn and tellers bullshit
21:26:25  <DJ_Nekkid> and if i had a wired connection (to the router) i would probably download it faster then 1mb/s :p
21:34:10  <Ammler> I use the server the devzone is on, mostly for torrents
21:34:40  <Ammler> since I moved all Mails to google
21:34:48  <yorick> so that's why it's so slow :D
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21:35:01  <Ammler> :-)
21:35:51  <Ammler> is the devzone slow?
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22:32:55  <Ammler> @topic add Downloads log:
22:32:55  *** Webster changes topic to "Talk about things hosted and developed on | Logs: | Downloads log:"
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