Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 16th October 2009:
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06:50:42  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 251: Change: production code for Iron Ore Mine (still ex... @ (by andythenorth)
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15:43:49  <DJNekkid> anyone wants Moose steak later on?
16:12:04  <Chris_Booth> ooh Moose Steak
16:12:08  <Chris_Booth> sounds tasty
16:12:36  <DJNekkid> hopefully it will be... prolly not finished until 21 or so .) ... about 18:15 now :)
16:16:59  <DJNekkid> planetmaker: i think i even might have an idea on how to solve language issue... i'll test it when im done with the 1st metrpo
16:17:02  <DJNekkid> -p
16:17:59  <DJNekkid> are there any engines that should have any special names?
16:18:02  <Brot6> 2cctrainset: update from r323 to r325, starting nightly compile
16:18:35  <Brot6> 2cctrainset: compile done (10 errors) -
16:18:35  <Brot6> bros: nightly compile not needed. (r10)
16:18:35  <Brot6> firs: update from r248 to r251, starting nightly compile
16:18:54  <Brot6> firs: compile done (1 errors) -
16:18:54  <Brot6> fish: nightly compile not needed. (r159)
16:18:55  <Brot6> heqs: nightly compile not needed. (r169)
16:18:55  <Brot6> nmts: nightly compile not needed. (r15)
16:18:56  <Brot6> opengfx: nightly compile not needed. (r205)
16:18:57  <Brot6> opensfx: nightly compile not needed. (r43)
16:18:57  <Brot6> worldairlineset: nightly compile not needed. (r584)
16:31:28  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #596 (New): Primary Industry Production Boosting Behaviour @ (by andythenorth)
16:35:14  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #596: Primary Industry Production Boosting Behaviour @ (by andythenorth)
16:51:35  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: 2cc train set - Revision 326: Add: Metro template and the 81-729 metro @ (by DJNekkid)
17:09:39  <DJNekkid> Ammler: online?
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17:21:51  <DJNekkid> Ammler! planetmaker! check latest 2cc commit!
17:22:11  <DJNekkid> ehm, the next one, i forgot the files :D
17:23:02  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: 2cc train set - Revision 327: Change: Moved stuff OUT of the english languagefile, and now other ... @ (by DJNekkid)
17:23:03  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: 2cc train set - Revision 328: Add: Forgot the files @ (by DJNekkid)
17:25:56  <Ammler> DJNekkid: yes :-)
17:26:08  <DJNekkid> you like? :D
17:26:24  <planetmaker> DJNekkid: that's great!
17:26:36  <DJNekkid> it just came to me :)
17:26:42  <DJNekkid> and: i just came :p
17:28:49  <planetmaker> I haven't tested yet. But that looks like I like a translation system for newgrfs
17:29:03  <DJNekkid> well, it works for english :)
17:29:10  <DJNekkid> im adding a norwegian one now...
17:36:35  <Ammler> DJNekkid: the inclusion could be moved out of the file either?
17:36:39  <Ammler> and the undef part
17:36:50  <DJNekkid> i just moved the undef part :)
17:37:07  <Ammler> I would think, it is the same for every language.
17:37:13  <DJNekkid> it is
17:37:27  <DJNekkid> #include include.pnfo
17:37:41  <DJNekkid> #include undef.pnfo
17:37:46  <DJNekkid> or something :)
17:38:44  <Ammler> the spaces should also made in another place
17:38:52  <Ammler> or replace it with a VAR
17:38:58  <DJNekkid> spaces ?
17:39:18  <Ammler> #define STR_METRO "                 Metro Wagon"
17:39:54  <Ammler> DJNekkid: also the include.pnfo shouldn't be in the lang file
17:40:15  <Ammler> it could be in the same file, where you include the lang file
17:40:42  <Ammler> just try to keep it very simple for people, who have no idea about 2cc set
17:40:49  <DJNekkid> i know :)
17:47:10  <DJNekkid> it just looks so clutterd! :)
17:47:19  <DJNekkid> #include 2F_norwegian.pnfo
17:47:19  <DJNekkid> #include "include.pnfo"
17:47:20  <DJNekkid> #include "undef.pnfo"
17:47:20  <DJNekkid> #include 7F_english.pnfo
17:47:20  <DJNekkid> #include "include.pnfo"
17:47:21  <DJNekkid> #include "undef.pnfo"
17:47:39  <DJNekkid> i would like:
17:47:58  <DJNekkid> #include 2F_norwegian.pnfo
17:47:58  <DJNekkid> #include ID_lang.pnfo
17:47:58  <DJNekkid> #include 7F_english.pnfo
17:55:12  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 252: Change: additional work on production boosting, inc... @ (by andythenorth)
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18:04:02  <Brot6> 2cctrainset: Backup push to ssh:// initiated.
18:04:19  <Brot6> firs: Backup push to ssh:// initiated.
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18:50:08  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: 2cc train set - Revision 329: 1: Changes to the language struckture\n2:Add: Norwegian lang. file @ (by DJNekkid)
18:54:55  <DJNekkid> im SO good :D
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18:57:45  <Ammler> hehe
19:04:38  <planetmaker> :-P
19:04:44  <DJNekkid> :D:D
19:04:50  <planetmaker> You were even better if it had been two commits :-P
19:05:01  <DJNekkid> i know, but;
19:05:08  <DJNekkid> it needs testing to see if thing fits
19:05:14  <planetmaker> so?
19:05:21  <planetmaker> you can always test locally
19:05:26  <planetmaker> it needs no commit for that
19:05:33  <DJNekkid> i tested locally!
19:05:41  <planetmaker> you should *always* test before you commit
19:05:46  <planetmaker> and then commit piecewise
19:05:51  <DJNekkid> i always do :)
19:06:19  <planetmaker> I don't always test (sufficiently) ;-)
19:06:30  <andythenorth> anyone want to test FIRS
19:06:31  <andythenorth> ?
19:06:33  <DJNekkid> well, after the first 3 or 4 MU's were ok, i just added, make'ed, and if it had no errors, i took it as good fish :)
19:06:35  <andythenorth> It's quite broken :D
19:06:45  <DJNekkid> and just commited streight away
19:06:50  <andythenorth> DJNekkid: No, FISH is something else...
19:06:56  <andythenorth> :P
19:07:04  <DJNekkid> "take it as good fish" ...
19:07:13  <andythenorth> I should go away again...clearly in a silly mood
19:07:17  <DJNekkid> norwegian saying about something that probably should work :)
19:07:27  * Rubidium wonders whther the norwegian æ works
19:07:40  <DJNekkid> the norwegian  works! :)
19:07:53  <DJNekkid> and also;  and  :)
19:08:13  <andythenorth> FIRS
19:08:15  <DJNekkid> in one norwegian dialekt they use "" as the word for "I"
19:08:44  <andythenorth> Should the industry window indicate what industries produced cargos go to?
19:09:09  <DJNekkid> _if_ its possible, i think that is a REALLY good idea
19:09:19  <andythenorth> It _is_ possible
19:09:21  <andythenorth> It could be fragile
19:09:24  <andythenorth> It is extra work
19:09:30  <andythenorth> It will make the window very big
19:09:59  <DJNekkid> well, i dont think we need ALL industries for the cargoes, but a general idea
19:10:10  <andythenorth> I wonder if make could do it?
19:10:18  <DJNekkid> it most likely can
19:10:27  <andythenorth> we know the IDs for supplied cargo
19:10:36  <andythenorth> And we know the IDs for accepted cargo
19:10:42  <andythenorth> And we know the strings for industry names
19:11:49  <planetmaker> [21:08]	<andythenorth>	Should the industry window indicate what industries produced cargos go to?  <-- what do you mean?
19:11:59  <planetmaker> you mean where you could ship the output?
19:12:02  <andythenorth> Yes
19:12:03  <planetmaker> I don't think so
19:12:15  <andythenorth> Any particular reason?
19:12:24  <planetmaker> but something which came to my mind when reading your tt-forums question:
19:12:42  <planetmaker> make a random change in production always +/- as usual
19:13:08  <planetmaker> and let ES only increase the chance of pos. increase, e.g. moving the mean of the outcome away from 0 to positive values
19:13:11  <DJNekkid> i find the idea very good, the reason i dont ever play with ECS is because its a bitch to find out where the new cargo is supposed to go
19:13:29  <planetmaker> Reason why not mention where to transport output: add-ons may change that
19:13:38  <planetmaker> and possible interference with house sets etc pp
19:13:48  <planetmaker> and it's not done anywhere else :-)
19:14:10  <DJNekkid> no good reasons to not be innovative
19:14:11  <planetmaker> it's sufficient to say what it accepts
19:14:30  <planetmaker> IMO the reason that it will be inaccurate with add-ons is good enough.
19:14:39  <andythenorth> planetmaker: you're probably right about cargo information
19:14:41  <planetmaker> or can be in-accurate
19:14:47  <andythenorth> we can revisit it later if necessary
19:14:56  <andythenorth> I think it is difficult to know what goes where though
19:15:11  <andythenorth> Got to go out
19:15:14  <planetmaker> yes. But if you always have the info what is accepted... that's good enough
19:15:44  <andythenorth> Just before I go...the production change is more or less as you described.  The implementation is different, but the result about the same.
19:15:58  <andythenorth> Implementation varies due to internal workings of nfo / industries
19:16:04  <planetmaker> ok.
19:16:11  <andythenorth> But over time, delivering ES increases chance of production increase
19:16:16  <planetmaker> I read the thread such that there's no change w/o ES
19:16:20  <planetmaker> e.g. constant output
19:16:35  <planetmaker> if that assumption is wrong: I'm happy
19:16:37  <andythenorth> Have you seen the devzone issue I posted explaining it?
19:16:55  <andythenorth> Normal random production change is unchanged
19:17:09  <andythenorth> Right time for Italian food :D
19:17:11  <andythenorth> see you later
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19:18:00  <DJNekkid> i still like the language-stuff in the 2cc set :D:D
19:18:15  <planetmaker> :-)
19:18:29  <planetmaker> from what I've seen, it looks very clean
19:19:11  <DJNekkid> on my screen one language file is a tad less then 1 screen "tall"
19:19:59  <DJNekkid> well, before we start adding more wagons that is :)
19:21:43  <planetmaker> hehe
19:23:38  <DJNekkid> but;
19:23:59  <DJNekkid> are there any engines that should have any different names?
19:24:07  <DJNekkid> i dont see any reason to ...
19:30:54  <planetmaker> yes, there are
19:31:06  <planetmaker> anything called "Class XY" is translatable
19:31:28  <planetmaker> or "Railbus AB"
19:31:32  <planetmaker> etc
19:32:09  <planetmaker> I say: leave it entirely to the translators whether _any_ string needs translation
19:32:15  <planetmaker> it's not your job ;-)
19:33:27  <DJNekkid> well ... i see that, but ... but ... hehe!
19:33:35  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: 2cc train set - Revision 330: Change: Update German translation to the new translation system @ (by planetmaker)
19:33:49  <DJNekkid> i'll add "railbus" and "class" to the things to translate
19:33:58  <planetmaker> make it the entire names
19:33:59  <planetmaker> please
19:34:17  <DJNekkid> hmm ...
19:34:20  <DJNekkid> im not sure i want to :)
19:34:25  <DJNekkid> point is:
19:34:32  <planetmaker> it will look ugly otherwise
19:34:50  <DJNekkid> i think train names _should_ not be translateable!
19:34:55  <DJNekkid> *engine
19:35:02  <planetmaker> I understand that
19:35:23  <DJNekkid> and, it looks much cleaner for the translator
19:35:32  <planetmaker> but you should have sufficient faith in your translators that they don't do crap
19:35:38  <DJNekkid> i dont :)
19:35:54  <planetmaker> if they don't want to translate it - there's no need then. Then the English string will be chosen.
19:35:56  <DJNekkid> a derivation of moorse law:"what can be missunderstood, will"
19:36:03  <planetmaker> no
19:36:06  <planetmaker> not here
19:36:11  <DJNekkid> hehe
19:36:19  <planetmaker> and there's more to translation than just railbus and class
19:36:22  <planetmaker> IMO
19:36:26  <planetmaker> IC
19:36:39  <planetmaker> might be different in other languages which don't use the English word
19:36:45  <planetmaker> etc pp
19:36:51  <planetmaker> you cannot know. Nor me
19:36:54  <planetmaker> Only the translators
19:36:55  <DJNekkid> IC ... as in ?
19:37:02  <planetmaker> inter city
19:37:09  <DJNekkid> ICE3 ?
19:37:26  <planetmaker> doesn't make sense to me to translate ICE :-)
19:37:37  <DJNekkid> me either, the train name IS ICE3
19:37:46  <planetmaker> yes. So what.
19:38:18  <DJNekkid> and for example, Sharknose and Genesis ... also known as that
19:38:26  <planetmaker> yes. So what.
19:38:40  <DJNekkid> no reason to translate that?
19:38:50  <planetmaker> all these counter-examples don't invalidate the argument that a translator knows better than you or me what needs translation
19:39:07  <planetmaker> so make it easy: offer everything
19:39:42  <DJNekkid> but then we also needs to maintain thoose
19:40:04  <planetmaker> If there's not translator... well, then there's no translation
19:40:07  <planetmaker> easy.
19:40:16  <planetmaker> then there's the English text
19:40:23  <planetmaker> which is fine anyway according to you
19:41:05  <DJNekkid> i guess my points are biting itself in the ass ... hehe
19:41:14  <DJNekkid> but ... i love clean files!
19:41:21  <DJNekkid> and as a "pro" ...
19:41:30  <DJNekkid> (opposite to 'con')
19:41:32  <planetmaker> it doesn't get messy, if you add the engine names.
19:41:51  <DJNekkid> a small file is a much smaller task to translate then a LARGE one
19:42:07  <DJNekkid> and then we might get more translations
19:42:10  <planetmaker> just add them the same clean way in their own section, maybe labeled with a comment like "translate, if you feel like"
19:42:17  <planetmaker> bad argument, DJNekkid
19:42:20  <planetmaker> IMO
19:42:33  <planetmaker> either proper or not
19:42:40  <DJNekkid> hehe
19:44:06  <DJNekkid> i guess i'll move it back then...
20:02:31  <DJNekkid> BUT;
20:02:46  <DJNekkid> shouldnt the language files be on a notepad-readable format?
20:03:07  <planetmaker> meaning?
20:04:59  <DJNekkid> meaning this:
20:05:09  <DJNekkid>
20:06:02  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: 2cc train set - notepadformat.PNG @ (by DJNekkid)
20:06:09  <planetmaker> they should use a proper text editor ;-)
20:06:16  <DJNekkid> they should, but they dont
20:06:33  <planetmaker> then it's our problem. Not theirs
20:06:42  <planetmaker> but I wouldn't change the source file format
20:06:52  <planetmaker> and: translators don't use windows necessarily
20:07:00  <planetmaker> so: no
20:07:48  <DJNekkid> are a "windows file" unreadable in *unix and mac readers?
20:08:43  <planetmaker> depends on editor ;-)
20:08:50  <planetmaker> usually yes
20:09:05  <planetmaker> still we shouldn't poison our source pnfo files
20:09:12  <DJNekkid> poison :p
20:09:19  <planetmaker> that's ugly and may have undesired results
20:09:53  <planetmaker> if you care about win users so much, give it to them in windows format. But don't change the pnfo files' line endings
20:10:04  <planetmaker> and convert the line endings before you commit
20:10:26  <planetmaker> files anyway have to go through a sanity check by one of us contributors
20:10:40  <planetmaker> so the line endings used by translators don't matter to us too much
20:10:58  <DJNekkid> well, i think i had an idea earlier on ...
20:11:07  <DJNekkid> post a .txt of it in the 1st 2cc set post
20:11:10  <DJNekkid> _when_ its done
20:12:03  <planetmaker> yes
20:12:11  <planetmaker> that's what I did last time :-P
20:12:47  <DJNekkid> then we have solved the whole problem :)
20:13:09  <planetmaker> :-)
20:16:13  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: 2cc train set - Revision 331: Change: removed names.pnfo and moved its contenct back to eng. lang... @ (by DJNekkid)
20:16:13  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: 2cc train set - Revision 332: merge heads @ (by DJNekkid)
20:16:37  <DJNekkid> im just wondering what we should do about the wagons
20:18:15  <planetmaker> what about them?
20:18:52  <DJNekkid> cargo support, its GFX etc
20:19:09  <planetmaker> ah. oh. right...
20:20:07  <DJNekkid> i feel the downside of the 2cc set is its ... lack of nice wagons
20:20:22  <DJNekkid> its PAX capabilities is just AWSOME, but cargo ... sux!
20:20:42  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: 2cc train set - Feature #590 (Closed): Take the content of the english language file to a separat... @ (by DJNekkid)
20:22:08  <planetmaker> I agree... We need a good wagon artist.
20:22:29  <DJNekkid> i vote for andy :p
20:23:21  <DJNekkid> and as well, the cargo translation table...
20:23:40  <DJNekkid> that is a part of .nfo i dont fully master...
20:23:43  <DJNekkid> *one of
20:25:40  <planetmaker> I thought I understood it. But my feeling is that I didn't fully - and thus messed around a bit ;-)
20:26:03  <DJNekkid> same as me! :)
20:26:16  <planetmaker> but generally it should be - afair - the first 32 bits which are dealt with by the refit masks...
20:26:34  <DJNekkid> but; it might be the fact that i used a outdated version of grfcoded when i toyed with it
20:26:43  <planetmaker> question is actually: do we need one, or will the default values suffice?
20:27:04  <DJNekkid> that is what i've been thinking quite a bit about as well...
20:27:17  <DJNekkid> because, we have VarAction2 variable 47
20:27:30  <DJNekkid> it can assign gfx according to cargo class
20:28:20  <planetmaker> yup. And cargo*classes* is IMO more important and more versatile than individual cargos
20:28:30  <planetmaker> you need the table only for the very fine details, I guess
20:28:33  <DJNekkid> always have, always will be
20:29:05  <planetmaker> maybe we should call for a wagon artist for the 2cc train set?
20:29:14  <DJNekkid> i would not mind that :)
20:29:22  <DJNekkid> we have _quite_ a bit of good gfx tho
20:29:48  <DJNekkid>
20:29:52  <planetmaker> yes. But as you state IMO correctly: wagons could use improvements and also we could use more different ones
20:29:53  <DJNekkid> but not _too much_
20:30:01  <planetmaker> yes, that neither :-)
20:30:07  <planetmaker> but... some :-)
20:30:57  <DJNekkid> i dont mind a few choises...
20:31:11  <DJNekkid> as Nekomaster once saied, wood can be in chip form
20:31:17  <DJNekkid> amongst other things
20:31:31  <planetmaker> yup
20:32:13  <DJNekkid> goods can be in liquid form
20:32:34  <DJNekkid> and i dont really mind random gfx at all
20:32:58  <DJNekkid> and i would also like to see some "real" "boxes" ...
20:33:06  <DJNekkid> i mean, DHL, Schenker, etc
20:33:25  <planetmaker> containers? yeah
20:33:29  <DJNekkid> aye
20:35:27  <DJNekkid> sprite/wagons contain a lot of .bmp and .pngs
20:36:36  <planetmaker> indeed
20:40:58  <DJNekkid> but what i've been struggling with, i'm haveing problems of seeing the point of haveing both a "flatcar" and a "gondola" ...
20:41:11  <DJNekkid> they carry the same cargo
20:42:12  <planetmaker> well... yes and no.
20:42:28  <DJNekkid> GFX whise...
20:42:29  <planetmaker> flat car has advantages to loading/unloading
20:42:44  <DJNekkid> but a gondola could carry more?
20:42:44  <planetmaker> and is more suitable for heavy & big things
20:42:58  <planetmaker> maybe.
20:43:15  <planetmaker> I'll have a quick look at
20:43:17  <DJNekkid> paper should not be on open cars anyway, imho :)
20:43:31  <planetmaker> :-P
20:44:52  <DJNekkid> "flatbed.png" is ok imho
20:45:04  <DJNekkid> gondola.png as well
20:45:08  <DJNekkid> but they have same cargos
20:45:30  <DJNekkid> hoppers.png is kinda boring
20:45:57  <DJNekkid> lots of nice stuff on "new_cargo_wagons.png"
20:46:25  <DJNekkid> tankersilo ... i dunno ...
20:46:32  <DJNekkid> but i think we replaced that
20:46:48  <DJNekkid> wagons2.png ... i dunno ...
20:48:57  <DJNekkid> and im also haveing problems seeing the need of a 1st and 2nd class pax coach
20:51:00  <planetmaker> DJNekkid: if I read it correctly, the weight carried away by the gondola wagons is about two to three times more than by the flatbed wagons
20:51:15  <planetmaker> at least potentially
20:51:24  <DJNekkid> oki..
20:51:31  <DJNekkid> but then we have balancing issues :)
20:51:45  <DJNekkid> there would be, no reason, at all, to use flatcars
20:52:19  <planetmaker> :-)
20:52:30  <planetmaker> faster loading / unloading? for some cargos at least?
20:53:15  <DJNekkid> yea ... but im not sure that really matter unless its pax
20:54:36  <planetmaker> well...
20:55:15  <DJNekkid> for REALLY big things i think it would be cool
20:56:39  <planetmaker> but it could be there just for the joy of it.
20:56:48  <planetmaker> there are sufficient people who play for eye candy
20:56:59  <DJNekkid> yea...
20:57:04  <DJNekkid> i know :)
20:57:11  <planetmaker> and if we had those with e.g. vehicle parts (firs, engineering supplies,...) it'd be *really* cool
20:57:19  <DJNekkid> i know
20:57:23  <DJNekkid> thats what i've been thinking too
20:57:30  <DJNekkid> but im not sure on how they are made
20:57:39  <DJNekkid> i mean, does it take 10 tons of steel to make one vehicle?
20:57:49  <planetmaker> what? engineering supplies?
20:57:58  <planetmaker> we don't care. we just need graphics :-)
20:58:32  <planetmaker> and that may be cable drums, big cogwheels, tools, lubricants, ...
20:58:45  <DJNekkid> not only that
20:58:54  <DJNekkid> we also need to know how many there are of one such thing
20:59:05  <DJNekkid> i mean... do one engeneering supply weigh 1ton or 10 tons
20:59:32  <planetmaker> 1ton by definition of this game
20:59:49  <planetmaker> everything weighs one ton :-)
21:00:00  <DJNekkid> dont have to
21:00:06  <planetmaker> yes, they do
21:00:09  <planetmaker> one icon = one ton
21:00:16  <DJNekkid> stuff can weigh down to 1/16th ton
21:00:19  <planetmaker> at least in station view etc
21:00:30  <Rubidium> planetmaker: uhm... action0cargos property 0F?
21:00:56  * planetmaker probably should look that up :-)
21:01:47  <DJNekkid> and it would be cool if FIRS would make stuff weigh more etc...
21:02:06  <DJNekkid> so, a flatcar could take, for example, 3 or 4 units of stuff
21:02:26  <DJNekkid> Large Glass windows, a couple of Bulldozers, etc
21:02:35  <planetmaker> yup
21:02:38  <DJNekkid> im not sure how ECS does that
21:20:01  <DJNekkid> hmm
21:20:18  <DJNekkid> is it possible for opengfx to add the "show all 32 px in depot"-thingy?
21:23:43  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: 2cc train set - Revision 333: Fix: White warning on chimarea sprites @ (by DJNekkid)
21:29:23  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: 2cc train set - Bug #586 (Closed): sprite offset errors @ (by DJNekkid)
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22:04:02  <Brot6> 2cctrainset: Backup push to ssh:// initiated.
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