Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 29th October 2009:
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00:09:03  *** ODM has quit IRC
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02:33:49  <Brot6> Backup done! (Usage: 103M)
02:33:49  <Brot6> You mean you don't want to watch WRESTLING from ATLANTA?
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07:55:26  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: 2cc train set - Revision 353: Change: Apply the engine template to class 1044 @ (by planetmaker)
07:55:26  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: 2cc train set - Revision 352: Change: Finish the engine template to allow to configure all proper... @ (by planetmaker)
08:10:45  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 343: Change: updated production ratio for Dairy @ (by andythenorth)
08:10:45  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: 2cc train set - Revision 354: Cleanup: remove a few unnecessary lines and apply a bit coding style @ (by planetmaker)
08:15:52  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: 2cc train set - Code Review #625 (New): use templates for real @ (by planetmaker)
08:31:19  <ODM> hey planetmaker
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09:23:12  <planetmaker> moin ODM :-)
09:23:47  <ODM> what are you upto this early?:)
09:24:06  <planetmaker> early?
09:24:43  <ODM> well it was early like an hour ago:P
09:25:45  <planetmaker> early is anything < 8h
09:25:51  <ODM> no way
09:26:01  <planetmaker> and too early anything <7h ;-)
09:26:51  <ODM> early is anything for 2 hours after you wake up
09:27:08  <planetmaker> well. I woke up at 7:15 or so
09:27:13  <ODM> cheat
09:27:15  <planetmaker> so it wasn't early by my definition
09:27:15  <ODM> why so early?:P
09:27:26  <planetmaker> that's usual for me
09:27:36  <planetmaker> without alarm clock even
09:29:54  <ODM> ugh
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11:04:03  <Brot6> 2cctrainset: Backup push to ssh:// initiated.
11:43:06  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Feature #107: Sprites 4627:4674 (48) - Toyland: Buildings @ (by LordAzamath)
12:14:53  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #624 (Closed): easier way to change industry map colours @ (by foobar)
12:14:53  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 348: Feature: colours for industry map now in seperate f... @ (by foobar)
12:14:53  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #624 (Closed): easier way to change industry map colours @ (by foobar)
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12:49:33  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: 2cc train set - Revision 355: Change: Use the engine template for nearly all engines (part of iss... @ (by planetmaker)
12:57:30  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: 2cc train set - Code Review #625: use templates for real @ (by planetmaker)
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15:04:03  <Brot6> 2cctrainset: Backup push to ssh:// initiated.
15:04:28  <Brot6> firs: Backup push to ssh:// initiated.
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15:55:39  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #626 (New): make colours of default industries configurable @ (by foobar)
16:16:15  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #626 (Closed): make colours of default industries configu... @ (by foobar)
16:16:15  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 349: Feature: make colours of default industries configu... @ (by foobar)
16:16:15  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #626 (Closed): make colours of default industries configu... @ (by foobar)
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16:35:58  <b3lsatar> can i have a host here ?
16:37:51  <Ammler> hello b3lsatar :-)
16:37:57  <Ammler> what are you looking for?
16:39:29  <b3lsatar> i need a host to set a bnc
16:40:07  <Ammler> and why do you think, you get one here?
16:40:47  <b3lsatar> i find somthing on google
16:40:56  <b3lsatar> and direction me here
16:41:03  <Ammler> :-o
16:41:47  <Ammler> well, the services here are fro OpenTTD related things, do you know that?
16:42:31  <Ammler> could you show me the link?
16:43:06  <b3lsatar> not
16:45:09  <Ammler> so if you don't develop for openttd or create extensions like newgrfs, you won't get a bouncer account.
16:48:53  <Ammler> I am wondering, which page you found, so I could point that out there...
16:51:36  * LordAzamath chuckles
16:57:44  <Ammler> LALALA :-)
17:04:06  <Brot6> derailed, restarting apache
17:18:01  <Brot6> 2cctrainset: update from r351 to r355, starting nightly compile
17:18:40  <Brot6> 2cctrainset: compile done (0 errors) -
17:18:40  <Brot6> bros: nightly compile not needed. (r10)
17:18:40  <Brot6> firs: update from r347 to r349, starting nightly compile
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17:19:02  <Brot6> firs: compile done (1 errors) -
17:19:02  <Brot6> fish: nightly compile not needed. (r159)
17:19:02  <Brot6> heqs: nightly compile not needed. (r169)
17:19:03  <Brot6> nmts: nightly compile not needed. (r15)
17:19:03  <Brot6> opengfx: nightly compile not needed. (r209)
17:19:03  <Brot6> opensfx: nightly compile not needed. (r43)
17:19:03  <DJNekkid> hi planetmaker :)
17:19:05  <Brot6> worldairlineset: nightly compile not needed. (r584)
17:19:22  <DJNekkid> i see you did "stuff" with the code :P
17:20:15  <DJNekkid> engines tho :)
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17:51:37  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: 2cc train set - Code Review #625: use templates for real @ (by DJNekkid)
18:08:30  <planetmaker> moin DJNekkid :-)
18:08:49  <DJNekkid> yo, sup my niggah?
18:09:33  <planetmaker> pfft
18:09:41  <planetmaker> go and fix the remaining ones.
18:09:48  <planetmaker> Those produce errors and those are your errors
18:10:09  <planetmaker> or they at least produce a different MD5, thus different behaviour when the template applies
18:10:26  <planetmaker> ;-)
18:12:52  <planetmaker> but honestly I don't know why converting those to the template changes something.
18:13:06  <planetmaker> The two mentioned in the ticket miss defines, probably in action0.pnfo
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18:13:53  <planetmaker> <planetmaker> pfft
18:13:54  <planetmaker> <planetmaker> go and fix the remaining ones.
18:13:54  <planetmaker> <planetmaker> Those produce errors and those are your errors
18:13:54  <planetmaker> <planetmaker> or they at least produce a different MD5, thus different behaviour when the template applies
18:13:54  <planetmaker> <planetmaker> ;-)
18:13:55  <planetmaker> <planetmaker> but honestly I don't know why converting those to the template changes something.
18:13:58  <planetmaker> <planetmaker> The two mentioned in the ticket miss defines, probably in action0.pnfo
18:14:00  <planetmaker> in case you missed it ;-)
18:14:17  <DJ_Nekkid> property 21
18:14:17  <planetmaker> but what do you think in general of this kind of use of templates?
18:14:57  <DJ_Nekkid> i've not made up my mind yet...
18:14:58  <DJ_Nekkid> hehe
18:15:30  <DJ_Nekkid> im not actually sure if its easier to add a new engine this way
18:16:34  <planetmaker> not easier. But no code duplication
18:16:43  <DJ_Nekkid> i mean, each engine still needs its own file
18:16:44  <planetmaker> Thus an error fixed in the template is automatically fixed everywhere
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18:17:26  <planetmaker> copying the same thing over & over again is quite bad programming behaviour and makes things unnecessarily difficult to maintain.
18:18:18  <DJ_Nekkid> but then we need to introduce a vehicle-length-property-definition
18:18:37  <DJ_Nekkid> and it is the occational none-templateable one
18:18:39  <DJ_Nekkid> ones
18:18:40  <DJ_Nekkid> like the DM3
18:19:17  <DJ_Nekkid> animated steamers
18:19:28  <DJ_Nekkid> none-animated steamers
18:19:52  <DJ_Nekkid> none-symmetric MUs
18:23:57  <DJ_Nekkid> so yes, i like the system, but it also have its limitations...
18:27:28  <DJ_Nekkid> did my connection crash again?
18:27:32  <planetmaker> of course it has
18:27:39  <DJ_Nekkid> hehe
18:27:39  <planetmaker> so has the copy&paste
18:28:10  <planetmaker> I thought about breaking up the template into several sub-templates
18:28:21  <planetmaker> and especially moving the #undef section out of it.
18:28:38  <planetmaker> then it's easy to add additional things after the template and before the undef
18:29:44  <DJ_Nekkid> yea...
18:30:02  <DJ_Nekkid> im just not sure about what we should do about the mus...
18:30:11  <DJ_Nekkid> engines are usually quite streight forward
18:31:13  <planetmaker> MUs can probably be treated very similar
18:31:23  <DJ_Nekkid> the vanilla ones can
18:32:15  <planetmaker> splitting the action0 and the undefs in separate templates as well as the action 2/3 chain in yet another might solve that
18:32:25  <DJ_Nekkid> no
18:32:27  <planetmaker> maybe even the action2/3 chain can be templated even more
18:32:35  <DJ_Nekkid> no :)
18:33:03  <DJ_Nekkid> the action1+2+3 chain is now, as far as i can see, as simple as it can be
18:33:09  <DJ_Nekkid> simple and clean
18:33:55  <planetmaker> so... a nice template
18:34:22  <DJ_Nekkid> but what about where the gfx isnt within the/a template?
18:34:35  <planetmaker> then the gfx needs to be put into the template
18:34:39  <planetmaker> easy as that
18:34:50  <DJ_Nekkid> out of you mean?
18:34:54  <planetmaker> or the gfx are moved to their own template and not templated, if it doesn't apply
18:35:13  <DJ_Nekkid> #include action0.pnfo
18:35:16  <DJ_Nekkid> #include action1.pnfo
18:35:23  <DJ_Nekkid> #include action2.pnfo
18:35:25  <planetmaker> something like that
18:35:26  <DJ_Nekkid> #include action3.pnfo
18:35:29  <planetmaker> yeah
18:35:33  <DJ_Nekkid> optionally
18:36:01  <DJ_Nekkid> action0.pnfo tgv-a-action1.pnfo tvg-a-action2.pnfo action3.pnfo
18:36:09  <planetmaker> nah
18:36:25  <planetmaker> no file called <specific-engine-actionX>.pnfo
18:36:37  <planetmaker> that will remain in the engine's file, if it cannot be templated
18:37:12  <planetmaker> even now, the engines as they're now... IMO it could be put into one big file called engines.pnfo
18:37:22  <DJ_Nekkid> yea
18:37:26  <DJ_Nekkid> i agree on that
18:37:30  <planetmaker> I mean... Not much there in the individual ones ;-)
18:37:33  <planetmaker> :-)
18:37:55  <DJ_Nekkid> as is now, there is little or no reason to have it in its own file
18:38:06  <DJ_Nekkid> but then, we could move the #undef's in a undef.pnfo :P
18:39:10  <planetmaker> yes, but currently it's not needed - unless one of the 5 other ones needs it
18:39:18  <DJ_Nekkid> 5 other ?
18:39:24  <planetmaker> 5 remaining engines
18:39:36  <planetmaker> which don't work and which are your task ;-)
18:39:47  <planetmaker> ticket #625
18:40:52  <DJ_Nekkid> we still need to make a #define this_engine_length
18:40:59  <DJ_Nekkid> probably why the alco dont work
18:41:27  <DJ_Nekkid> and probably because a few others dont work 100% gfx whise
18:41:51  <DJ_Nekkid> did you read what i wrote on the same ticket?
18:42:06  <planetmaker> that is already done? did you look at the template?
18:42:15  <planetmaker> it's only an optional define afair
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18:42:27  <planetmaker> it gets a default value, if not defined. Default = 0.
18:43:18  <planetmaker> #ifndef THIS_ENG_SHORTERVEHICLE	// Shorter vehicle
18:43:18  <planetmaker> 43
18:43:18  <planetmaker> #define THIS_ENG_SHORTERVEHICLE 00
18:43:18  <planetmaker> 44
18:43:19  <planetmaker> #endif
18:43:41  <planetmaker> (ignore the line numbers)
18:44:11  <planetmaker> I think I defined every property.
18:44:17  <planetmaker> But I made a number of them optional
18:45:11  <DJ_Nekkid> where is the template btw?
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18:46:55  <planetmaker> templates/template-engines.pnfo?
18:47:11  <planetmaker> the path is defined in ids.pnfo :-P
18:47:14  <DJ_Nekkid> oh... i thoght it were in the sprites\nfo-somewhere
18:47:31  <planetmaker> you could just have searched for TEMPLATE_ENGINE
18:47:36  <planetmaker> found ids.pnfo
18:47:54  <planetmaker> and that would have told ../../../templates/template-engines.pnfo :-P
18:48:57  <planetmaker> I actually like my way to have optional arguments for the template :-) Just like the vehicle shortening ;-)
18:49:23  <DJ_Nekkid> its nice and all
18:49:40  <DJ_Nekkid> but the thing i dislike ... its more programming, and not much .nfo anymore...
18:49:41  <planetmaker> A default engine is just a few defines and that's it ;-)
18:49:51  <planetmaker> It's all about nfo
18:49:58  <DJ_Nekkid> hehe
18:50:04  <planetmaker> It's just that you don't have to write the 100% same NFO about 30 times
18:50:11  <DJ_Nekkid> btw ...
18:50:15  <DJ_Nekkid> probably my fault
18:50:21  <DJ_Nekkid> #ifndef THIS_ENG_MISC		// 01 tilt + 02 2cc + 04 xMU
18:50:22  <DJ_Nekkid> #define THIS_ENG_MISC 06
18:50:22  <DJ_Nekkid> #endif
18:50:26  <DJ_Nekkid> should be 02, not 06 :)
18:50:32  <planetmaker> then change it ;-)
18:50:50  <planetmaker> It was wrong in ALL engines then!
18:51:02  <planetmaker> maybe that makes you see the power to only have one template?
18:51:05  <planetmaker> used everywhere?
18:51:14  <DJ_Nekkid> *blush*
18:51:21  <planetmaker> I checked for every engine whether the templification changed the MD5.
18:51:52  <planetmaker> e.g. compiled the grf for every engine I changed today
18:53:23  <DJ_Nekkid> but the Alco should not be a problem
18:53:30  <planetmaker> well. But it was.
18:53:57  <DJ_Nekkid> what errors did you get? :P
18:54:11  <planetmaker> I just got a different MD5sum
18:54:20  <DJ_Nekkid> that means?
18:54:43  <planetmaker> so it's either that the values in the file don't fit the defines as in action0.pnfo or there's some other value different than for the other engines
18:55:05  <planetmaker> result will be either: the engine properties change somewhere when we apply the template
18:55:07  <DJ_Nekkid> are the old template somewheree?
18:55:14  <planetmaker> Probably it will be correct, though
18:55:15  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: 2cc train set - Revision 356: Fix: Engines should have misc property 02, not 06 @ (by DJNekkid)
18:55:23  <planetmaker> the old template is available, if you get an old version of the repo
18:55:30  <planetmaker> hg up -r<old>
18:55:37  <planetmaker> the power of a VCS.
18:55:54  <planetmaker> no need to keep old crap. But it's at your hand, if you checkout the old revision
18:56:19  <planetmaker> hg up without parameters updates to the latest revision
18:56:23  <planetmaker> (again)
18:56:33  <planetmaker> don't forget that afterwards ;-)
18:56:59  <planetmaker> I'm also thinking to throw out all the old unneeded files.
18:57:07  <planetmaker> It's only confusing and they're not needed.
18:57:17  <planetmaker> And checking out an old revision will give you back those still
18:57:30  <planetmaker> Keeping unused stuff around is bad style, too ;-)
18:57:44  <DJ_Nekkid> i think it might be available on the webpage...
18:57:45  <planetmaker> that's what we have versions for.
18:57:55  <planetmaker> yes, that works there, too
18:58:05  <planetmaker> but you have it on your PC, too.
18:58:17  <planetmaker> a hg repository has EVERY revision ever checked in. always
18:58:32  <planetmaker> e.g. hg up -r1 will give you the first version you put into this repo
18:58:50  <DJ_Nekkid> so, thats why it takes ages to dl WAS every 100th rev :p
18:59:11  <planetmaker> yes. Especially as you need to download each revision of each image and binary file
18:59:18  <planetmaker> That's why using excel is so bad, btw ;-)
18:59:28  <planetmaker> you have to download each excel file version ever put into this repo
18:59:48  <planetmaker> there's no such thing as only differences between two versions of binary files
19:00:16  <planetmaker> for plain text as nfo - that's another thing. There diffs are easy :-)
19:00:23  <DJ_Nekkid> how do i get back to "top" ?
19:00:25  <planetmaker> hg up
19:00:34  <DJ_Nekkid> oki
19:00:41  <planetmaker> hg up tip
19:00:48  <planetmaker> but without tip will update to tip ;-)
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19:02:57  <planetmaker> but of course you're right in one thing: the code structure moves away quite a bit from plain NFO :-)
19:03:09  <planetmaker> I'm not sure it's a completely bad thing, though
19:03:28  <planetmaker> It makes things... different.
19:03:49  <planetmaker> And probably easier to understand in general. And better shows the structure
19:03:57  <andythenorth> evening
19:04:02  <Brot6> 2cctrainset: Backup push to ssh:// initiated.
19:04:04  <planetmaker> hi andythenorth
19:04:07  <andythenorth> did I miss anything :)
19:04:20  <Brot6> firs: Backup push to ssh:// initiated.
19:04:25  <planetmaker> not really. I just added today the real templification to 2cctrainset's engines
19:04:28  <planetmaker> at least most :-)
19:04:51  <planetmaker> Thanks for creating the FIRS industry template with me. That work basically gave the idea and made it possible
19:05:25  <planetmaker> btw, I think about adding those templates, 2cctrainset ones and firs ones to my newgrf example
19:05:47  <planetmaker> I mean...  those templates are great examples and might help newbies get something done very quickly :-)
19:08:01  <planetmaker> maybe I'll even add an example engine and an example industry there, so that there's actually really a newgrf produced in order to have something to play around and experiment with.
19:13:57  <andythenorth> nice idea
19:20:10  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: 2cc train set - Code Review #625: use templates for real @ (by planetmaker)
19:23:01  <DJ_Nekkid> hehe planetmaker :)
19:23:09  <DJ_Nekkid> are there btw, a template-template?
19:23:10  <DJ_Nekkid> :P
19:26:15  <Ammler> btw, also consider using tnfo and template folder in sprites...
19:28:31  <planetmaker> Ammler, yes, that's on my agenda to change
19:28:40  <planetmaker> but step by step :-)
19:29:26  <planetmaker> DJ_Nekkid, well... I can imagine e.g. the current template-engines.pnfo to look like
19:30:08  <planetmaker> #include action0.tnfo #include action1-engines.tnfo #include action2-3-engines.tnfo
19:30:18  <andythenorth> question
19:30:20  <planetmaker> so a template calling other templates
19:30:40  <andythenorth> actually, maybe later!
19:30:41  <andythenorth> afk
19:30:53  <planetmaker> :-P
19:33:22  <DJ_Nekkid> *yawn*
19:33:36  <DJ_Nekkid> god damn, i HATE this change-the-clock-twice-a-year
19:40:10  <DJ_Nekkid> but what is our goal planetmaker ... make the BEST trainset out there, EVER? :)
19:40:17  <DJ_Nekkid> (current it is, but even better :P)
19:45:48  <planetmaker> well. I'd say "make a good one" :-)
19:46:13  <DJ_Nekkid> gotta aim higher then that! :)
19:46:20  <planetmaker> and if we make some work which makes life easy and makes it easy for others to contribute, that's good, too
19:46:31  <planetmaker> We want to make it such, that others can profit from it.
19:47:15  <planetmaker> Realistically it's not "the best". But one of the best IMO :-)
19:47:29  <planetmaker> "the best" depends too much on what you want and like
19:47:41  <Ammler> which is "the best"?
19:47:57  <planetmaker> exactly. Dunno
19:48:21  <planetmaker> This one (though the current release version has too many bugs for that IMO), japanese, NARS, DBXL
19:48:27  <Ammler> dbsetxl 0.9 :-P
19:48:34  <DJ_Nekkid> .9 isnt out yet
19:48:42  <planetmaker> Ammler, we don't include vapourware in comparisons ;-)
19:49:13  <DJ_Nekkid> indeed!
19:49:23  <planetmaker> DJ_Nekkid, note his ":-P"
19:49:27  <planetmaker> ;-)
19:49:36  <DJ_Nekkid> indeed
19:49:59  <planetmaker> probably once out, the canset will be nice, too
19:50:05  <DJ_Nekkid> well, for any PAX game, i think there are little or no competition :)
19:50:27  <planetmaker> don't say. NARS is a bit slow, but I very much like the Japanese one, too
19:51:07  <planetmaker> but the velocities are realistical for NARS. Both countries (UK and US) are not famous for their rolling stocks that is. At least not in modern times
19:51:40  <planetmaker> and the japanese set has much less bugs than the 2cctrainset currently has
19:52:03  <DJ_Nekkid> but no variable pax capacities
19:52:21  <planetmaker> well... Bug free is more important IMO than versatile.
19:52:33  <planetmaker> We should fix more bugs before we add even more ;-)
19:52:35  <DJ_Nekkid> why i wanted to make a 2.0 :)
19:52:54  <planetmaker> yes. It's a nice clean restart, agreed
19:52:54  <DJ_Nekkid> the 1.0 were in a too bad state
19:52:58  <planetmaker> indeed
19:53:26  <planetmaker> and the templates help us to get it better ;-)
19:53:48  <DJ_Nekkid> even I had problems reading its code after a good 6 months of dormant state
19:54:07  <DJ_Nekkid> atleast its oldest parts
19:54:12  <DJ_Nekkid> the newer parts were somewhat better
19:57:47  <DJ_Nekkid> im wondering on how much of this system i could adopt for the dutchset and bros
20:04:44  <andythenorth> there is no best train set :P
20:04:47  <andythenorth> nor RV set
20:04:53  <andythenorth> but there is a best ship set :D
20:05:10  <DJ_Nekkid> there is a "best" tramset :P
20:05:32  <andythenorth> there will be a best industry set :D
20:05:34  <andythenorth> maybe
20:05:39  <DJ_Nekkid> there will
20:05:44  <DJ_Nekkid> ECS is too confusing :)
20:05:48  <DJ_Nekkid> and bugged in open
20:05:50  <andythenorth> PBI is awesome
20:06:04  <andythenorth> Also Pikka is planning TAI
20:06:15  <DJ_Nekkid> well, PBI isnt entierly my cup of tea
20:06:19  <andythenorth> FIRS question
20:06:27  <andythenorth> I am *so* sick of starting with coal
20:06:38  <andythenorth> how about randomising payment rates at the start of a game?
20:06:45  <andythenorth> *that* would add variety no?
20:07:02  <DJ_Nekkid> sounds like an awsome plan...
20:07:10  <DJ_Nekkid> atleast to some degree
20:07:14  <DJ_Nekkid> _if_ its possible
20:07:21  <andythenorth> probably, I haven't checked
20:07:24  <andythenorth> let me see...
20:07:51  <planetmaker> clearly there's a best ship set, yes :-)
20:08:15  <andythenorth> New Ships!
20:08:21  <Ammler> PBI is buggy
20:08:30  <planetmaker> <andythenorth> how about randomising payment rates at the start of a game? <-- sounds great. But maybe make it a parameter?
20:08:32  <Ammler> imo, almost unplayable buggy
20:08:59  <andythenorth> PBI buggy?
20:09:09  <Ammler> you need to respawn the industries, even if they are services
20:09:21  <Ammler> yes, pikka is aware of it.
20:09:32  <Ammler> serviced*
20:09:39  <andythenorth> oh yeah, I have had bugs now I come to think of it
20:09:45  <andythenorth> grr.
20:09:46  <andythenorth>
20:09:50  <andythenorth> is not what I need
20:10:05  <andythenorth> what is that one actually used for in real life, sorry I mean the game
20:10:16  <planetmaker> guys, just let me tell you three: you're awesome. Without you three the devzone wouldn't exist :-)
20:10:25  <planetmaker> or would be dead
20:10:41  <planetmaker> and I like this grf-dev spirit here :-)
20:10:59  <planetmaker> like to see things growing :-)
20:11:09  <andythenorth> <planetmaker> is on happy juice :D
20:11:17  * planetmaker is, yes :-)
20:11:25  <Ammler> :-)
20:11:57  <DJ_Nekkid> well planetmaker, if it werent for your decition to fix bugs in 2cc, it wouldnt have exsisted ..?
20:12:04  <DJ_Nekkid> we started as #2cc :)
20:13:58  <planetmaker> :-)
20:14:03  <DJ_Nekkid> hehe :)
20:14:23  <andythenorth> DJ_Nekkid: [wiki] can you see any way to randomise cargo payment rates?
20:14:29  <andythenorth> I am thinking Action D....
20:14:55  <DJ_Nekkid> i heavent studied it so far am i afraid...
20:16:38  <Ammler> he, just checked, the first devzone channel also still exists:
20:16:43  <DJ_Nekkid> can cargo payments be adjusted via callbacks _
20:16:54  <DJ_Nekkid> ?
20:16:55  <andythenorth> not so far as I can see
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20:17:20  <DJ_Nekkid> then i dont think its possible
20:17:23  <andythenorth> only needs to be done once, cb would be very inefficient, unless it's just called once
20:17:36  <DJ_Nekkid> but, you can adjust it?
20:17:40  <DJ_Nekkid> via a callback?
20:17:44  <DJ_Nekkid> _can_
20:17:53  <andythenorth> can't see a cb for it
20:17:56  <DJ_Nekkid> if so, its possible to add a random var2
20:18:02  <Ammler> planetmaker: any idea if that channel is still in use, else you should drop it, specially because of becoming outdated topic infos
20:18:03  <DJ_Nekkid> where different ones can be called
20:18:07  <andythenorth> Action D could do it, but would need some random bits to play with
20:18:29  <andythenorth> wonder if Action D can read the datetime or something?
20:19:25  <planetmaker> Ammler, you mean #2cc?
20:19:30  <planetmaker> It's not a registered channel
20:19:38  <Ammler> no,
20:19:43  <planetmaker> ah.
20:20:11  <planetmaker> there're still people there :-)
20:20:21  <planetmaker> I just cleaned my channel list
20:21:00  <Ammler> yes, but unregister it, so other people can take it over
20:22:01  <Ammler> or make Hirundo master
20:22:07  <planetmaker> sounds better
20:22:24  <Ammler> changed the topic and parted webster
20:23:05  <planetmaker> made Hirundo master
20:23:49  <Ammler> Hirundo, if you like activity annoucement from brot in that channel, tell me.
20:23:53  <planetmaker> andythenorth, can't CB39 be used?
20:25:24  <andythenorth> I think cb 39 could be used
20:25:32  <planetmaker> but sounds like A LOT of work
20:25:39  <andythenorth> I think it would be more work than just changing the values in Action 0 for each cargo
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20:27:59  <planetmaker> payment rates#Penalty_times_and_price_factor_10_11_12_ <-- that, andythenorth ?
20:28:29  <DJ_Nekkid> but there is no such thing as VarAction0 :P
20:28:41  <planetmaker> you could certainly randomize the values for properties set, couldn't you?
20:29:04  <DJ_Nekkid> not that im aware of
20:29:15  <planetmaker> hm... bad
20:29:18  <andythenorth> planetmaker: it is props 10 11 12 that need to change
20:29:20  <DJ_Nekkid> for trains, you could ...
20:29:23  <DJ_Nekkid> via CB36
20:29:26  <andythenorth> it would be done with Action 6 / D
20:29:32  <DJ_Nekkid> and "normal" randomization
20:29:35  <andythenorth> if action D could get some random bits, it would be fine
20:29:46  <andythenorth> I think
20:30:23  <andythenorth> frosch will know, or Rubidium
20:30:35  <Ammler> planetmaker: we need to move the whole devzone at once, as we used quite a lot symlinks from one domain to the other :-)
20:31:28  <planetmaker> hm... action 6 sounds like a nice plan for that, andythenorth :-)
20:31:47  <andythenorth> Action 6 + action D
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20:33:14  <planetmaker> hm.. but not random. True
20:33:43  <planetmaker> Ammler, yes, I think that will be true. We might want to install it such that we have straight away proper user accounts.
20:33:53  <planetmaker> and individual repo access.
20:33:57  <planetmaker> or?
20:36:28  <Ammler> hmm
20:36:40  <Ammler> I would say, we move everything and cleanup then
20:36:51  <Ammler> we can't keep the old server for long
20:37:03  <planetmaker> ok. Also a good point
20:37:07  <Ammler> 1 of those 2 are gone
20:37:18  <planetmaker> one of those two what?
20:37:31  <Ammler> 2 weeks, while we can run both servers
20:37:38  <planetmaker> oh. right.
20:37:41  <Ammler> :-D
20:37:54  <planetmaker> so... we have like 7 days left?
20:38:16  <Ammler> well, theoretically more
20:38:36  <Ammler> it depense, when I send the upgrade formulare
20:39:06  <DJ_Nekkid> Ammler: if you know how, i can set up a server at home when we move home... i have the hardware
20:39:22  <DJ_Nekkid> if this is something you actually pay for
20:39:37  <Ammler> around 30€/month
20:39:54  <DJ_Nekkid> i have a P4 1800mhz at home
20:40:23  <DJ_Nekkid> i only lack a raid card... and i can insert 2x 1TB discs in mirror raid
20:40:46  <DJ_Nekkid> i even have a static IP
20:40:55  <Ammler> sounds nice :-)
20:41:20  <DJ_Nekkid> P4 1800 ... not super-up-to-date, but it is most likely MORE then enough for our needs
20:41:25  <andythenorth> do you have a reliable connection?
20:41:42  <DJ_Nekkid> ADSL 2+ 15/1mbit
20:41:57  <Ammler> only 1mbit upload?
20:42:00  <DJ_Nekkid> yes...
20:42:25  <DJ_Nekkid> to little?
20:42:31  <Ammler> that is quite slow :-(
20:42:51  <DJ_Nekkid> 100kb/s :)
20:43:18  <planetmaker> DJ_Nekkid, the question is indeed the connectivity and reliability :-)
20:43:33  <DJ_Nekkid> ive never had any problems at home :)
20:43:43  <Ammler> well, you mostly download
20:43:48  <planetmaker> And the management interface is kinda nice to know, too :-) And the possibility to reboot it via web interface, you know :-)
20:44:00  <planetmaker> Ammler, well... but servers upload :-)
20:44:25  <planetmaker> we have like... 3GB traffic per month or so?
20:44:44  <Ammler> around 200 GB
20:44:59  <Ammler> but the server limit is 4 TB
20:45:06  <planetmaker> oh :-P
20:45:30  <Ammler> DJ_Nekkid: could make a radio stream ;-)
20:45:35  <planetmaker> @calc 200*10**9 / 24 / 3600 * 8
20:45:35  <Webster> planetmaker: 18518518.5185
20:45:41  <planetmaker> @calc 200*10**9 / 24 / 3600 * 8 / 10**6
20:45:41  <Webster> planetmaker: 18.5185185185
20:45:47  <planetmaker> we need 18 Mbit
20:45:49  <planetmaker> constantly
20:46:04  <DJ_Nekkid> cant be right
20:46:04  <planetmaker> oh. wrong. 0.5 :-)
20:46:09  <planetmaker> @calc 200*10**9 / 24 / 3600 * 8 / 10**6 / 30
20:46:09  <Webster> planetmaker: 0.617283950617
20:46:45  <planetmaker> but still. That's assuming constant traffic. Peak is much higher
20:46:48  <planetmaker> like now :-)
20:47:04  <planetmaker> We host the whole www.openttdcoop from that server
20:47:08  <DJ_Nekkid> oh...
20:47:13  <DJ_Nekkid> i thought it were just the devzone
20:47:18  <planetmaker> not (anymore)
20:47:25  <Ammler> it were, but that has changed....
20:47:28  <DJ_Nekkid> my p4 wont be able to cope with the game serving
20:47:36  <planetmaker> no game running here :-)
20:47:39  <planetmaker> that's another one
20:47:40  <DJ_Nekkid> atleast not on much bigger maps then 512^2
20:47:51  <planetmaker> at least not now... well. Sometimes
20:47:53  <planetmaker> or?
20:48:01  <Ammler> server
20:48:05  <planetmaker> yeah
20:50:06  <Ammler> what are you doing with that server now?
20:50:11  <planetmaker> DJ_Nekkid, but... it might be a good idea to maybe use your computer as backup and secondary?
20:50:21  <planetmaker> That'd be a nice thing actually IMO
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20:50:38  <DJ_Nekkid> currently it got a bugged windows installation and have been turned off for the last ... i dunno ... half year
20:51:05  <planetmaker> it'd need a new linux install in order to work as a server.
20:51:11  <DJ_Nekkid> i used to have a personal fileserver  on it
20:51:15  <planetmaker> and it'd need to run 24/7...
20:51:36  <DJ_Nekkid> but then i got a WD mybook world from my father
20:51:46  <DJ_Nekkid> and i just copied all stuff i had over to it,
20:51:55  <DJ_Nekkid> but that disk is insanely slow
20:52:04  <DJ_Nekkid> so i've thought about setting up a new one
20:52:07  <planetmaker> :-P
20:52:19  <DJ_Nekkid> and i did get two 1TB disks a while back, plus a raid-card
20:52:21  <Ammler> I use a 10year old desktop as fileserver here
20:52:26  <DJ_Nekkid> express PCI
20:52:40  <DJ_Nekkid> but that slot on that MB werent express PCI
20:52:43  <DJ_Nekkid> it were ... something else :p
20:53:44  <Ammler> I bouth a sata controller and usb 2.0 and since then, it works quite nice
20:54:28  <Ammler> usb disks for "rotating" backups :-)
20:54:40  <planetmaker> ok, do you still need me? Else I'm off for the rest of the night. Party time! :-)
20:54:49  <DJ_Nekkid> dont drive...
20:55:14  <planetmaker> nope. Just a few storeys below :-) (I'm still at my workplace)
20:55:15  <Ammler> I make the the newserver capable for redmine
20:55:19  <Ammler> then I am off too
20:55:30  <planetmaker> nice! :-)
20:55:42  <Ammler> gem install passenger is the last step, then only a bit rsync
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21:21:14  <dandan_> hi
21:22:41  <dandan_> have a few questions about the devzone
21:22:53  <DJ_Nekkid> im here
21:23:01  <DJ_Nekkid> if im good enough :)
21:23:07  <DJ_Nekkid> tho, Ammler and planetmaker are the main bosses
21:23:12  <dandan_> hi dj
21:23:23  <DJ_Nekkid> :D:D
21:23:23  <dandan_> should be simple stuff
21:23:52  <dandan_> I just uploaded the Japan landscape stuff to the devzone
21:24:04  <dandan_> if I want to publish it on the forums, where should I link to?
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21:25:04  <DJ_Nekkid> ?
21:25:33  <dandan_> how will people find the files there?
21:25:50  <dandan_> I was more thinking of a direct link to the grf or a directory listing
21:25:59  <DJ_Nekkid> did you "hg commit -m "text"" and "hg push" ?
21:26:05  <DJ_Nekkid> or upload via files?
21:26:32  <dandan_> the first
21:26:54  <dandan_> could link here
21:26:55  <dandan_>
21:27:20  <dandan_> but then if you take the zip you get everything, including source which most people dont want
21:27:53  <DJ_Nekkid> this is not my board am i afraid... :)
21:28:03  <dandan_> no problem
21:28:24  <dandan_> will wait for ammler or planetmaker then
21:28:41  <DJ_Nekkid> planetmaker went to bed or party a half an hour ago
21:29:12  <DJ_Nekkid> [21:54:35] <planetmaker> ok, do you still need me? Else I'm off for the rest of the night. Party time! :-)
21:29:13  <DJ_Nekkid> [21:54:44] <DJ_Nekkid> dont drive...
21:29:13  <DJ_Nekkid> [21:55:09] <planetmaker> nope. Just a few storeys below :-) (I'm still at my workplace)
21:29:13  <DJ_Nekkid> [21:55:10] <Ammler> I make the the newserver capable for redmine
21:29:13  <DJ_Nekkid> [21:55:14] <Ammler> then I am off too
21:29:26  <Ammler> I am still here
21:29:28  <DJ_Nekkid> [22:20:50] * dandan_ ( has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
21:29:29  <Ammler> :-)
21:30:06  <dandan_> hi ammler
21:30:24  <Ammler> Hello dandan_
21:31:07  <Ammler> well, the devzone is meant for hosting the source and probably the nightlies and such
21:31:11  <dandan_> dandan_: I just uploaded the Japan landscape stuff to the devzone
21:31:11  <dandan_> [22:24] dandan_: if I want to publish it on the forums, where should I link to?
21:31:30  <Ammler> you could also use the files sections, but I don't think, it is needed.
21:31:34  <dandan_> okay
21:31:57  <dandan_> so its not really intended as a repository for people to download from?
21:31:57  <Ammler> the release bundles you have on tt-forums or bananas
21:32:04  <dandan_> okay, thats fine
21:32:18  <dandan_> I have one other question
21:32:19  <Ammler> it is intended as a repository for people to constribute
21:32:27  <Ammler> -s
21:32:36  <dandan_> I want to add a subproject to the Japan Set project on the devzone page
21:32:39  <dandan_> how do I do that?
21:33:03  <Ammler> on top left you find projects
21:33:19  <Ammler> there you will find a create project in the right side
21:33:26  <dandan_> okay
21:33:56  <Ammler> currently you need an admin to move it as subproject
21:34:09  <dandan_> ah alright
21:34:19  <Ammler> no issue, just tell it here
21:34:26  <dandan_> will do
21:34:30  <Ammler> or create a ticket, if you don't have irc
21:37:27  <dandan_> Okay, I just created Japanese Landscape Set
21:37:37  <dandan_> Could you make it a subproject of the Japan Set?
21:42:13  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: Japanese Landscape Set - Revision 0: Version 1.1 @ (by dandan)
21:42:13  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: Japanese Landscape Set - Revision 1: Added readme @ (by dandan)
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21:43:42  <Ammler> the newgrf projects here mostly support compiling the newgrf with make
21:43:53  <dandan__> oops I got disconnected
21:44:13  <Ammler> there is a Link on the topic to the logs
21:44:22  <Ammler> if you think, you missed something
21:45:26  <Ammler> hmm, but only in a hourly basis...
21:45:28  <Rubidium> Ammler: you mean those logs that can be delayed by 1 hour?
21:45:43  <Rubidium> although... next refresh in 10 minutes :)
21:46:11  <Ammler> KenjiE20: ^ :-)
21:46:43  <dandan__> more like eight hours or else I have the wrong page
21:46:54  <Rubidium> no, it's not in your timezone
21:47:13  <KenjiE20> just refreshed for you :)
21:47:15  <Rubidium> it looks like UTC-6
21:47:26  <KenjiE20> PDT (UTC-9)
21:47:38  <KenjiE20> 7*
21:47:40  <KenjiE20> >_>
21:47:54  <Ammler> webster is located in the US?
21:47:54  <Webster> Infrastructure Sharing. See for more details.
21:47:58  <KenjiE20> yup
21:48:28  <Rubidium> hmm... oh yeah, we're in +1, not +2
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21:49:08  <dandan__> anyway, seems someone read my request to move my project to a subproject. Thanks guys
21:49:12  <KenjiE20> all of this for two lines of IRC :)
21:49:17  <Ammler> well, I would prefer realtime instead of long time logs, too :-)
21:50:23  <Ammler> but the delay is good for the public server :-)
21:50:44  <KenjiE20> I can tweak the devzone cron job if you like
21:51:02  <dandan__> i'll be off for now, thanks for the help
21:51:45  <Ammler> personally, I have the bouncer
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21:52:46  <KenjiE20> I think an hour is probably sufficient, I doubt they get much traffic
21:53:13  <Ammler> can't you trigger it by call?
21:53:27  <KenjiE20> probably
21:53:33  <Ammler> with a cach something
21:55:08  <KenjiE20> I could probably write a php script to replace the .sh file sort and perl loger converter
21:55:57  * Rubidium wonders why the whole 'make up' is necessary
21:56:33  <KenjiE20> because the alternative, is staring at the raw file structure :P
21:57:45  <Rubidium> those colours and seemingly 'random' font sizes just annoy me
21:58:08  <Rubidium> then again, I rarely ever look at the logs because I don't need to
21:58:27  <KenjiE20> some of the colours are a bit off, I'll admit
21:58:50  <KenjiE20> but then I just shoved an 'off the shelf' with a shell script, to get the job done :P
21:58:55  <Ammler> I have enough to read from the client logs itslef
21:59:17  <Ammler> but sometimes I would like to point others to it, this time it failed ;-)
21:59:40  <Rubidium> <- that's adequate enough for me ;)
21:59:44  <KenjiE20> tbh Ammler you could've just pasted brots lines :P
22:00:25  <Ammler> well, I don't know, what to paste.
22:01:14  <KenjiE20> well all that was said between dandan_'s last lines, and dandan__ appearing was Brot
22:02:14  <Ammler> :-)
22:02:28  <Ammler> it is a general issue
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23:02:08  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Feature #107: Sprites 4627:4674 (48) - Toyland: Buildings @ (by athanasios)
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