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Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 11th May 2010:
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05:25:56  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: NFO Meta Language - Revision 146: Codechange: make sure Action*.write() has no side effects <http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository/revisions/146>
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07:18:11  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: NFO Meta Language - Revision 148: Add: support for writing grf files (writing utf-8 strings is no... <http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository/revisions/148> || NFO Meta Language - Revision 147: Change: introduce OutputNFO, an output class that writes NFO <http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository/revisions/147>
07:28:27  <Yexo> planetmaker: nml can now write grf files, some remarks:
07:28:39  <Yexo> the palette of the graphic files are not checked
07:28:51  <Yexo> by default intputfile.nfo and inputfile.grf are written
07:29:04  <planetmaker> :-O
07:29:08  <Yexo> both png and pcx are supported as input, maybe more, that depends on PIL
07:29:22  <planetmaker> Congratulations, Yexo ! :-)
07:29:24  <Yexo> if you use png as input then nforenum doesn't like the resulting nfo code
07:29:40  <Yexo> thanks :)
07:29:54  <Yexo> it was easier then I expected :)
07:30:05  <planetmaker> :-) good to know
07:31:14  <planetmaker> Ammler: rather the "nothing done for as nothing changed"
07:31:23  <planetmaker> and good morning Yexo and Ammler :-)
07:33:14  <planetmaker> Yexo: should the name of nml then not be something different?
07:34:03  <Yexo> hmm, yes
07:34:31  <planetmaker> gml ;-)
07:46:31  <Yexo> Hirundo: when you have some time for it, could you commit your sprite template code?
07:50:16  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: NFO Meta Language - Revision 149: Add: writing utf-8 strings to grf files <http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository/revisions/149>
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07:56:46  <planetmaker> Yexo, does NML write both nfo and grf?
07:57:04  <planetmaker> ah, nvm
07:57:09  <planetmaker> just in the sprites dir.
07:57:13  <planetmaker> which is quite sensibly then
07:57:58  <Ammler> good morning and wow Yexo :-)
07:58:53  <planetmaker> hm, should I be bothered that the grf file size is different?
07:59:31  <Ammler> no compression maybe?
08:06:19  <Ammler> Yexo: it seems like the setup.py script does install wrongly on 64bit system
08:06:35  <Ammler> where the libdir is /usr/lib64
08:07:04  <Ammler> hmm
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08:29:01  <Ammler> Yexo: noarch is the key :-)
08:29:22  <Ammler> sorry for useless highlight, all fine
08:30:23  <Yexo> <planetmaker> hm, should I be bothered that the grf file size is different? <- yes
08:30:50  <planetmaker> then try ogfxplus as it's now
08:30:50  <Ammler> one little issue has the setup.py script
08:31:00  <planetmaker> it doesn't yield the same
08:31:12  <Ammler> %dir %{python_sitelib}/nml
08:31:13  <Ammler> %dir %{python_sitelib}/nml/actions
08:31:22  <planetmaker> I don't have time to test it right now, though. Maybe tonight
08:31:37  <Ammler> this 2 rows should also be supplied by it
08:31:38  <planetmaker> but I cannot promise that either
08:32:13  <Yexo> planetmaker: it's indeed different, most likely a bug in the grf writing
08:33:09  <Yexo> <Ammler> this 2 rows should also be supplied by it <- by which file?
08:33:49  <Ammler> --record=INSTALLED_FILES
08:33:59  <Ammler> %files -f INSTALLED_FILES
08:34:23  <Ammler> Yexo: it is just a glitch, maybe also a issue of the rpm build
08:35:13  <Yexo> dunno, if you can't find the reason for it just open an issue about it and I'll look at it later
08:35:43  <planetmaker> and if he finds the reason he keeps silent? :-P
08:37:41  <Yexo> planetmaker: difference in ogfxplus is sprite cropping
08:37:53  <Yexo> if you set "GRFCODEC_FLAGS = -e" in makefile.local the grf files are exactly the same
08:42:15  <Ammler> Yexo: does the python image lib also support converting pngs?
08:42:23  <Yexo> yes
08:42:51  <Ammler> I see great potential then :-)
08:43:26  <Yexo> it's a oneliner to save a loaded image as png
08:43:29  <Yexo> or pcx
08:50:48  <planetmaker> Yexo, ah... yes. Forgot about that :-)
08:50:52  <planetmaker> sorry
08:51:01  <Yexo> np :)
08:51:13  <Yexo> it's a useful thing to implement, I had completely forgotten about it
08:51:31  <planetmaker> well. Not every sprite must be cropped.
08:51:38  <planetmaker> Only if the proper compression flag is set
08:51:52  <planetmaker> (or rather not set)
08:52:07  <Yexo> if bit 6 is set then it should not be cropped
08:52:11  <planetmaker> ^
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10:57:47  <Ammler> Yexo: nml doesn't work with python 2.4?
11:12:14  <Ammler> https://build.opensuse.org/stage/package/show?package=openttd-devel-nml&project=home%3Aopenttdcoop
11:12:20  <Ammler> should be public readable
11:27:54  <Ammler> http://dev.9thsoft.com/wiki/hgredmine
11:27:55  <Webster> Title: HgRedmine - Overview - (9thsoft) Development Center (at dev.9thsoft.com)
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11:58:59  <Ammler> planetmaker: something for us?
12:00:04  <planetmaker> looks useful, yes
12:00:23  <planetmaker> with the increasing amount of repos on the machine that might become an issue somewhen
12:02:08  <Ammler> I take a look
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13:05:52  <Ammler> how do I compare a remote hg repo with my local repo before I pull?
13:06:04  <Ammler> thought, there is incomming
13:40:59  <Ammler> he, Hirundo broke our repo
13:41:06  <Ammler> the clone of openttd trunk
13:41:22  <Ammler> or was it me?
13:42:23  <Ammler> http://pastebin.com/wWukLjk5 <-- might be me :-(
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14:55:38  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: 2cc train set - Revision 519: Add: Engine placeholder PCX'es <http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/2cctrainset/repository/revisions/519>
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15:41:21  <DJNekkid> bah
15:41:33  <DJNekkid> make: *** No rule to make target `Makefile.dep', needed by `depend'.  Stop.
15:41:35  <DJNekkid> hehe
16:18:33  <Brot6> 2cctrainset: update from r517 to r519 done (1 errors) - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/2cctrainset/nightlies/
16:18:34  <Brot6> worldairlineset: no commit since last failed compile, compile skipped (r637)
16:18:34  <Brot6> Following repos didn't need a update: 32bpp-extra (r32), airportsplus (r48), bros (r10), comic-houses (r69), firs (r820), fish (r360), heqs (r318), nmts (r15), nutracks (r59), opengfx (r456), openmsx (r53), opensfx (r88), snowlinemod (r10)
16:28:43  <Ammler> hmm
16:29:31  <Brot6> worldairlineset: no commit since last failed compile, compile skipped (r637)
16:29:31  <Brot6> Following repos didn't need a update: 2cctrainset (r519), 32bpp-extra (r32), airportsplus (r48), bros (r10), comic-houses (r69), firs (r820), fish (r360), heqs (r318), nmts (r15), nutracks (r59), opengfx (r456), openmsx (r53), opensfx (r88), snowlinemod (r10)
16:29:43  <Ammler> wtf.
16:30:35  <Brot6> Following repos didn't need a update: 2cctrainset (r519), 32bpp-extra (r32), airportsplus (r48), bros (r10), comic-houses (r69), firs (r820), fish (r360), heqs (r318), nmts (r15), nutracks (r59), opengfx (r456), openmsx (r53), opensfx (r88), snowlinemod (r10), worldairlineset (ERROR r637)
16:47:40  <DJNekkid> w... tf?
16:47:43  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: 2cc train set - Revision 520: Add: More engines, but theese have placeholder sprites <http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/2cctrainset/repository/revisions/520>
16:49:31  <Ammler> fixed :-)
16:49:43  <Ammler> removed the repeating error about compile failure
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16:59:07  <Yexo> <Ammler> Yexo: nml doesn't work with python 2.4?
16:59:07  <Yexo>  <- indeed, I make use of the ternary operator which was added in 2.5
17:02:35  <planetmaker> DJNekkid, you get that message whenever you reference a non-existing file somewhere
17:05:42  <DJNekkid> i know...
17:06:38  <DJNekkid> but when i add alot of stuff at once (i know, i should not do that, but they are esencially the same) its HARD to find what file it misses
17:10:21  <planetmaker> yes. I'm aware of that. But you should usually know what / where you add stuff
17:10:34  <planetmaker> if you don't know you add too much at once :-P
17:11:22  <planetmaker> rest assured that I'm not happy with it and that I consider it a bug, too ;-)
17:23:39  <Rubidium> what's the maximum amount of cargo you can transport per track with normal railed vehicles (i.e. no maglev)?
17:24:15  <Rubidium> assuming goods, 25 units per wagon and 241 km/h
17:27:00  <Rubidium> oh, timespan: 1 month
17:29:36  <Rubidium> I seem to be averaging out around 6500-7000 units, but am wondering whether the track can be made more efficient
17:38:18  <planetmaker> hm... you mean the amount of cargo which passes over an arbitrary piece of mainline track?
17:38:31  <Rubidium> yes, basically
17:38:54  <planetmaker> hm... how many pixels does a vehicle move at... any speed?
17:39:35  <Rubidium> does the number of pixels matter?
17:39:59  <planetmaker> I need a handle on the amount of vehicles passing over that tile per month
17:40:08  <Rubidium> 14
17:40:19  <planetmaker> 14 what?
17:40:29  <Rubidium> 12 tile long asiastars
17:40:55  <Rubidium> 2 double headed engine + 20 wagons with 25 goods
17:41:19  <planetmaker> hm, only 25 goods each?
17:41:30  <Rubidium> yes, 25 goods per wagon
17:42:02  <planetmaker> so it's 500 per train
17:42:06  <Rubidium> yes
17:42:22  <planetmaker> then your 7000 is 14 trains per 5 minutes = month
17:42:36  <Rubidium> yes, that I know
17:42:44  <Rubidium> I wanted to know what the maximum is
17:42:50  <planetmaker> I know :-)
17:43:06  <planetmaker> That's why I asked you how many pixels per tick an asiastar can move ;-)
17:43:09  <Rubidium> e.g. should I use 10 tile trains? or something
17:43:28  <planetmaker> you'll move more cargo per tile and month the longer your train
17:43:38  <planetmaker> if you ignore acceleration
17:44:05  <planetmaker> with an infinite train you'll have in the limit only goods wagons passing over your tile at 241km/h
17:44:14  <planetmaker> immediately adjacent to eachother
17:44:40  <Rubidium> there're currently about 4 empty tiles between the trains
17:44:52  <Rubidium> not sure whether that can be made significantly smaller
17:44:59  <planetmaker> that's nearly as good as it can get
17:45:14  <planetmaker> you can get 2.x if you stop a chain of trains and mass-start them
17:45:30  <planetmaker> after they all were waiting behind eachother
17:47:01  <Rubidium> okay, so improving bandwidth means adding even more tracks
17:47:10  <planetmaker> probably
17:47:29  <planetmaker> you could get away with three tiles empty between trains, I think
17:47:41  <planetmaker> given signal distance 2
17:48:10  <planetmaker> but that needs more care than just having trains run on a line; maybe a compressor
17:48:37  <planetmaker> http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Compressor
17:48:57  <planetmaker> which basically makes sure that trains sync-start
17:49:15  <planetmaker> (and leave a gap behind the amount of trains started
17:49:16  <planetmaker> )
17:50:30  <Rubidium> I'm basically doing that already
17:50:32  <planetmaker> hm... even those compressors have 4 tiles gap between trains...
17:50:59  <Rubidium> just slightly less cumbersome as that one
17:51:06  <planetmaker> :-)
17:51:24  <Rubidium> though it only works if the two incoming tracks have at least two waiting trains
17:53:03  <planetmaker> I'd be interested to see what you built :-)
17:54:08  <Rubidium> http://rbijker.net/openttd/Sunton%20Transport,%202015-08-25.png
18:07:41  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: 2cc train set - Revision 521: Fix: Mailwagons now actually can take mail, and not bagged people :P <http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/2cctrainset/repository/revisions/521>
18:09:02  <Hirundo> what pm said ^^ :o
18:09:54  <Hirundo> nvm, I replied to something that turned out to be *not* the last message /fail
18:13:15  <planetmaker> Rubidium, but you have to manually stop one of those trains, or?
18:13:32  <planetmaker> (unless it's so densly packed with trains that it's not needed anyway)
18:37:41  <Hirundo> Yexo: I see some pretty awesome stuff in my changelog :o
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18:39:26  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: NFO Meta Language - Revision 150: Add: crop sprites by default (unless bit 6 of the compression i... <http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository/revisions/150>
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18:43:43  <Hirundo> Yexo: Do I need to download the 'Image' library?
18:48:02  <planetmaker> it's a separate python library. I guess it will be needed
18:48:23  <Yexo> Hirundo: yes, you need PIL
18:48:35  <Yexo> http://www.pythonware.com/products/pil/
18:48:36  <Webster> Title: Python Imaging Library (PIL) (at www.pythonware.com)
18:49:01  * planetmaker could just install it via zypper or macports
18:52:25  * andythenorth runs miles screaming from PIL
18:52:59  <andythenorth> great library, for some reason always ten miles of pain to get built and working correctly with [insert framework of choice]
18:53:18  <andythenorth> brilliant once working
18:53:40  <planetmaker> but it allows NML to produce grf straight away :-)
18:53:49  <planetmaker> no nforenum, no grfcodec needed anymore :-)
18:54:08  <andythenorth> like I said, brilliant once working :)
18:54:22  <andythenorth> we use it to save a *lot* of bandwidth commercially :)
18:54:25  <planetmaker> if I got Yexo correctly it wasn't difficult
18:54:36  <planetmaker> my tests with it didn't dig up problems either
18:58:56  <Yexo> planetmaker: if you update nml you can enable cropping in grfcodec again
19:07:11  <Yexo> andythenorth: it was easy to setup here, just extra the source zip and run "python setup.py install"
19:08:32  <andythenorth> FWIW I've already got it for work purposes.  Dunno what the troubles are we have, I think it's usually just version stuff, or maybe it doesn't play nice with buildout.  I forget :P
19:08:51  <andythenorth> the mac side is usually ok, it's deploying on production boxes that is sometimes sketchy
19:10:04  <andythenorth> incidentally, I've no idea if you'll need this for nml but we use it a lot: http://www.buildout.org/
19:10:05  <Webster> Title: Buildout - software build system reloaded! (at www.buildout.org)
19:10:06  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: NFO Meta Language - Feature #934 (New): Add commandline flags to enable/disable sprite cropping a... <http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/934> || NFO Meta Language - Feature #933 (New): Add commandline flags to select between nfo/grf output <http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/933>
19:12:00  <Yexo> planetmaker: are there more properties except tractive_effort_coefficient and air_drag_coefficient that should have a value between 0 and 1?
19:15:05  <frosch123> ocean and canal speed fraction, if you care about ttdp only stuff
19:16:56  <Yexo> not really
19:17:02  <frosch123> prospecting success chance
19:17:40  <frosch123> the other appearance probabilities are only relative
19:22:42  <Yexo> thanks frosch123
19:38:33  <Yexo> planetmaker: http://devs.openttd.org/~yexo/updates.diff updates for ogfxplus
19:42:29  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: NFO Meta Language - Revision 152: Add: the unit 'nfo' which is valid for all properties. If used ... <http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository/revisions/152> || NFO Meta Language - Revision 151: Add: enable floating point values in nml and use them for sever... <http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository/revisions/151>
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21:19:07  <Hirundo> arrgh PIL is bothering me too
21:19:42  <Hirundo> I have python 3.x installed on windows, but for nml I use cygwin which runs version 2.5
21:20:06  <Hirundo> However, the PIL installer fails to comprehend that, complaining about a wrong version in the registry
21:23:30  <andythenorth> and now you're in the exciting world of PIL :P
21:34:45  <Yexo> Hirundo: just extract the source zip somewhere and run "python setup.py install" in that directory in cygwin
21:35:56  <Hirundo> That yielded Yet Another Error: something with remapping dlls
21:37:15  <Hirundo> Google told me to run 'rebaseall', so currently I'm trying that
21:39:00  <Yexo> I remember that kind of errors when I first tried ti install it, for some reason it worked without problems yesterday
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