Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 9th November 2010:
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08:10:10  <ODM> mornin
08:11:33  <planetmaker> moin
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08:24:52  <Ammler> guete morge
08:25:50  <ODM> :)
08:25:54  <ODM> everyones up early:O
08:26:01  <planetmaker> early?
08:26:09  <planetmaker> early would be two hours ago ;-)
08:26:10  <ODM> well reasonably:P
08:26:22  <planetmaker> unreasonably would be three hours ago :-P
08:26:38  <ODM> ugh
08:26:41  <ODM> im a poor student!:P
08:26:52  <planetmaker> 7am seems to be the magical border for me ;-) before that I'm wasted for the whole day ;-)
08:27:46  <ODM> mine's 8 really
08:28:22  <planetmaker> hehe
08:28:38  <planetmaker> <-- Zephyris is a crazy genius ;-)
08:28:40  <Webster> Title: Transport Tycoon Forums • View topic - Zephyris' Procedural Buildings Tool (at
08:30:04  <ODM> that is brilliant
08:30:54  <planetmaker> quite
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09:05:52  <Brot6> Berries - Revision 7:3933e91db039: Add: First version of password changer. (ODM) @
09:07:18  <Ammler> the password list path configureable?
09:08:36  <Ammler> and length maybe
09:10:03  <ODM> list path and interval
09:30:05  <dih> ODM, by the way - if you need another plugin ^^ you can;
09:30:59  <dih> in case you want another plugin to trigger a password change, or stop the password change
09:32:02  <Ammler> and maybe you wanna support the whole key access too :-)
09:32:41  <ODM> hm?
09:33:35  <dih> src/main/resources/dictionaries/words6.txt <- that will not work ^^
09:33:51  <ODM> yeah i noticed that:D
09:33:56  <dih> :-D
09:33:56  <ODM> changed it in my local config
09:34:07  <ODM> not sure yet what ill put there:D
09:34:08  <dih> Ammler, what access key?
09:34:40  <ODM> i really dont have a clue what to do with it:D
09:34:50  <ODM> i already have a private key on the ps
09:35:03  <ODM> uh public*
09:35:24  <Ammler> you guys don't have highlight?
09:35:33  <ODM> i do
09:35:37  <ODM> but that doesnt make it any more clear
09:36:48  <Ammler> well, how to get the pw?
09:37:02  <Ammler> (without irc)
09:37:04  <ODM> the server password? or the server admin password?
09:37:05  <dih> Ammler, please explain in more detail - i.e how to append to that url (key= KEYS= nothing =
09:37:15  <ODM> its just a /keys/whatever dih
09:37:40  <Ammler> dih: curl <that key url>
09:37:53  <dih> oh dear lord ^^
09:38:01  <Ammler> just another way to get the pw
09:38:03  <ODM> and damn you Ammler, i already had a key setup, now it overwrote it:P
09:38:04  <dih> i'd advise removing that password from the file :-P
09:38:18  <dih> well, not a prio :-D
09:38:21  <Ammler> ODM: I assumed, you didn't know
09:38:32  <Ammler> or why should you ask?
09:38:38  <ODM> i didnt ask for it?
09:38:47  <Ammler> [10:32] <ODM> hm?
09:38:54  <Ammler> or wasn't that for me?
09:39:15  <ODM> it was meant for you, but it was a "what the hell are you talking about", not a "can i have a key?"
09:39:33  <Ammler> oh sorry then :-P
09:39:46  <Ammler> I can revert your old key, if you want
09:39:57  <ODM> and im still not sure how that would affect what we are doing
09:40:02  <dih> ODM, this.getClass().getResource(String name);
09:40:10  <dih> returns a URL object
09:40:20  <dih> or getResourceAsStream(String name)
09:40:30  <dih> returns InputStream
09:40:40  <Ammler> ODM: if you can/won't do it, just write the pw to a file
09:40:55  <Ammler> as ap+ does
09:41:37  <dih> it's not a prio if you ask me just yet - i'd actually even prefer writing commands until we have a decent interface for having them processed
09:41:42  <dih> which we currently don't
09:42:30  <ODM> Ammler, if you have a request.. can you just write it?^^ instead of throwing it in the form of a set of hints:P
09:42:53  <dih> but i must say Ammler usually has some pretty good ideas :-)
09:43:19  <Ammler> ODM: I am not your project manager or whatever, do that yourself :-P
09:43:37  <ODM> than don't bug me:
09:43:41  <Ammler> :-)
09:43:46  <ODM> took me ages to figure out what the hell you were talking about:O
09:44:12  <Ammler> at least you are aware of it now ;-)
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09:46:25  <Ammler> <-- maybe you could set a category per plugin
09:47:27  <Ammler> might be easier to order the Feature Requests I will create :-P
09:56:39  <Brot6> Berries - Feature Request #1778 (New): Password should be alternatively available per http (Ammler) @
10:01:34  <dih> Ammler, that is a nice idea :-)
10:03:41  <dih> ODM, what could be interesting would be a ExtentionPoint: e.g. @ServerPasswordChanged
10:03:52  <dih> which you could invoke after setting the password
10:04:13  <dih> passing the String
10:04:36  <dih> then anybody could create a plugin which hooks into that, and they can jump in and do their thing
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10:20:31  <Brot6> Grapes - Feature Request #1779 (New): String Tokenizer which handles Quoted text etc. (dih) @
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15:44:31  * dih is out of work - the moliday starts ;)
15:44:53  <dih> ... and who is moli :P
15:45:24  <planetmaker> I don't really want to know ;-)
15:52:32  <dih> pffft
15:56:55  <planetmaker> vehicle vars: grfid 	0 ... 0xFFFFFFFF 	GRFID that defined the graphics-block for this vehicle.  <-- does it actually make sense to advertise every possible grfID here?
15:57:12  <planetmaker> Or should we also take out here the 0xFFxxxxxx IDs?
15:57:59  <planetmaker> as base grfs hardly define vehicle graphics blocks...
16:07:38  <Yexo> I'd leave it as it is
16:07:57  <Yexo> it refers to the grfid of another newgrf, which can't be an "invalid" id
16:08:23  <Yexo> the only place we need to document which ids are valid is in the grf-block documentation, where you actually define the grfid
16:10:39  <Ammler> maybe nml should split the GRFID to "author" and "project"
16:13:02  <Ammler> (since version isn't part of the ID anymore)
16:13:51  <Ammler> btw. is the GRF version available for Action7/9?
16:14:39  <planetmaker> of another grf? yes
16:14:57  <planetmaker> firs uses it to detect old / new TTRS
16:15:17  <Yexo> but I don't think it's available in nml
16:15:40  <planetmaker> might be...
16:15:51  <Ammler> ah, A1 :-$
16:19:59  <Ammler> the version thing is the first thing which can cause troubles between ottd an ttdp
16:20:27  <Ammler> a14 already is more than just meta data :-)
16:22:13  <planetmaker> Somewhat, yes. Though how does it make trouble with TTDPatch? You mean the incompatibility while maintaining grfID?
16:22:13  <Ammler> what is the difference between different GRFIDs and equal ID but different min-version?
16:22:54  <planetmaker> The plan is that different grfID = different NewGRF and to deprecate the use of new grfIDs just for breaking compatibility
16:23:08  <planetmaker> e.g. this would have avoided the many FIRS grfIDs we already have.
16:23:25  <planetmaker> and yes, it breaks the assumption that same grfID is compatible
16:23:31  <planetmaker> But that assumption never held anyway
16:23:39  <planetmaker> best example being ISR
16:24:11  <Ammler> well, I meant, does openttd behave other with 2 grfs have different IDS or 2 grfs with same ID but different min-version
16:24:35  <planetmaker> different grfIDs will be considered different grfs.
16:24:45  <Ammler> yes, that is already the case
16:25:02  <Ammler> what about same ID but different min-version?
16:25:06  <planetmaker> If you keep the same grfID, you'll be offered only the newest version around when selecting it for new games (with default settings)
16:25:27  <Ammler> planetmaker: min-version, not version
16:25:48  <Ammler> MINV in nfo, afaik
16:26:08  <Ammler> the thing, which should make changing GRFID obsolete
16:26:10  <planetmaker> yes, I understand :-) The min version defines you backward compatibility
16:26:16  <Yexo> Ammler: two grfs with the same grfid,same version but differet minversion don't follow the spec
16:26:24  <planetmaker> ^
16:26:26  <Yexo> they're different, so they should have a different version
16:26:27  <Ammler> Yexo: no version
16:26:29  <Ammler> (again)
16:26:39  <Ammler> obviously the version is different
16:26:42  <planetmaker> min version doesn't make sense without considering version
16:27:18  <planetmaker> but an example: I have A: v=20, minv=15 and B: v=30 and minv=18, same grfID
16:27:28  <Ammler> yes
16:27:42  <planetmaker> I have an old savegame, played with v=19 and only A and B around.
16:27:55  <planetmaker> Then necessarily B will be taken
16:28:08  <planetmaker> But if I have a game, played with v17. Then A will be taken
16:28:19  <Ammler> what, if I don't have A
16:28:24  <Yexo> if you played the savegame with v17 and you don't have A
16:28:28  <planetmaker> you're missing the grf then
16:28:32  <Yexo> I think B will be taken n that case, not sure though
16:28:37  <Ammler> hmm
16:28:42  <planetmaker> Yexo, it won't
16:28:45  <Yexo> ok :)
16:28:47  <Yexo> that's good :)
16:28:52  <Ammler> then there is no difference
16:29:20  <Ammler> (which is fine, imo)
16:29:30  <Ammler> so you can still change the GRFID
16:29:44  <planetmaker> yes :-) The whole point was to make grfID changes not required (and to discourage them)
16:29:53  <planetmaker> Of course you can still do that. But MinV is more versatile
16:30:02  <Ammler> well, that is fine for no-ttdp grfs
16:30:11  <planetmaker> even then... ;-)
16:30:11  <Ammler> like firs and most vehicle grfs
16:30:27  <planetmaker> mb tells us you need to hand-select the compatible one anyway. So... who cares?
16:31:29  <Ammler> we don't have a grf which get incompatible and works on ttdp on the DevZone
16:33:01  <planetmaker> yet ;-)
16:33:07  <Ammler> maybe you can make a switch so you can also load a "incompatible" grf
16:33:11  <Ammler> then it would make sence
16:33:14  <Ammler> sense*
16:33:36  <planetmaker> you cannot do that the old style with different IDs either
16:33:51  <Ammler> I mean, ISR for example did not change the ID so you were able to upgrade
16:34:08  <planetmaker> yes. Very bad
16:34:15  <Ammler> no, it was on purpose
16:34:23  <Yexo> still it was bad
16:34:28  <Ammler> you were able to update without crash
16:34:44  <planetmaker> Ammler, if that was on purpose... it's a game killer! It crashes every savegame instantly, if you upgrade
16:34:50  <Ammler> you needed to send all trains to depot and then fix some glitches
16:34:50  <planetmaker> You aren't
16:34:54  <Yexo> only if you changed certain station tiles to the default stations, than change grf and than change them back again
16:35:29  <Yexo> you might as well just remove the old grf and add the new one, you'll also get glitches in every station but those are also fixable
16:36:12  <Ammler> I just mean, there are both views :-)
16:36:12  <Ammler> I didn't like it either
16:36:20  <planetmaker> yep. Also I doubt they knew what they were doing. They just 'tidied' up the code related to IDs. And were not aware of their doings
16:36:37  <planetmaker> In any case: compatible is only when you can load a savegame. And you cannot with ISR
16:37:22  <planetmaker> and it has crashed my OpenTTD way too often on old savegames that I consider that even remotely as 'compatible'
16:38:50  <Ammler> planetmaker: the other reason could be that it was done for ttdp mainly, where the GRFID doesn't matter for compatibility
16:39:04  <Ammler> (for the map)
16:39:37  <Ammler> but it matters for compatiblity between sets, where stations don't matter
16:39:37  <planetmaker> yes...
16:39:54  <planetmaker> different topic: <--- seems I have to supply my own md5 sum after all?
16:40:14  <Ammler> you don't
16:40:20  <Ammler> but md5 might be in files
16:40:25  <planetmaker> why is it an error then?
16:40:28  <Ammler> so you need to remove it there
16:41:30  <planetmaker> -%{BUILD}/*.md5
16:41:30  <planetmaker>  <--- ?
16:44:10  <Brot6> Example NewGRF Project - Revision 232:dc2735931793: Fix: Don't fail building on missing md5sums. ... (planetmaker) @
16:44:30  <Ammler> pm, yes
16:45:01  <Ammler> my mistake :-)
16:45:02  <planetmaker> :-) Good, then let's hope we have as of today nice prepared dummy newgrf projects which just need unzipping
16:45:25  <planetmaker> no problem. You just said you would copy the default and I should check the details - which you did :-)
16:46:13  <planetmaker> A medium problem with those zips is: those only build when you create a hg repository
16:46:23  <planetmaker> otherwise they fail big time
16:46:37  <planetmaker> *those projects inside the zips
16:46:45  <Ammler> just run hg init :-P
16:47:01  <planetmaker> yes. I even say so in the readme. But still
16:47:27  <Ammler> I mean run it with the makefile
16:47:49  <planetmaker> it still then means to require hg
16:47:57  <Ammler> yes, which it does
16:48:01  <Ammler> as you say self
16:48:04  <planetmaker> :-)
16:48:24  <Ammler> you can still check if Makefile.dist exists
16:48:36  <planetmaker> well, but I'd like to provide a download which can be just unpacked. And then the project made. Without further fuss
16:48:47  <planetmaker> Also for simple testing of some random crap
16:49:47  <Ammler> well, you also need grfcodec, nforenum etc.
16:49:56  <planetmaker> not for nml projects
16:49:56  <Ammler> so Mercurial is minor dependency
16:50:02  <Ammler> there you need nml
16:50:54  <Ammler> IMO, it also already big luxus to make it buildable for distros without hg
16:51:12  <Ammler> it wouldn't hurt at all
16:51:21  <planetmaker> :-) actually. when you run hg init. and then make bundle_src. Then that is buildable without hg ;-)
16:51:50  <planetmaker> or should be. I didn't actually test it.
16:52:03  <planetmaker> from that very repository. But works for our newgrfs
16:53:04  <Ammler> only needed for opengfx, well not needed as I said :-P
16:53:20  <planetmaker> :-) Yes, but for OpenGFX
16:53:46  <Ammler> not needed, but you made it working without
16:54:17  <Ammler> it is good for very old distros like suse 9 or rh4
16:54:55  <Ammler> but as nforenum doesn't work on suse 9, this is useless again :-P
16:55:26  <Ammler> oh, I guess, suse 9 is depreciated since just now
16:56:41  <planetmaker> :-)
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16:59:08  <Ammler> might take another year
16:59:13  <Ammler> month*
17:00:52  <Ammler> ttdviewer doesn't build on suse 11.1 because of hg
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17:23:22  <Brot6> firs: update from r1489 to r1493 done (3 errors) -
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17:24:12  <Brot6> newgrf_makefile: compile of r232 failed -
17:24:37  <Brot6> Following repos didn't need a nightlies update: 2cctrainset (r651), 32bpp-extra (r39), ai-admiralai (r71), airportsplus (r69), basecosts (r22), belarusiantowns (r7), comic-houses (r71), fish (r415), frenchtowns (r4), grfcodec (r786), heqs (r492), indonesiantowns (r38), manindu (r5), metrotrackset (r56), nml (r1034), nutracks (r117), ogfx-trains (r87), ogfx-trees (r41), opengfx (r554), openmsx (r97), opensfx (r97), smts (r19), snowlinemod
17:24:37  <Brot6> (r45), swedishrails (r188), swisstowns (r21), transrapidtrackset (r15), ttdviewer (r26), ttrs (r23), worldairlinersset (r667)
17:25:30  <Ammler> planetmaker: files flag R supports only one file
17:26:03  <Ammler> he, I feared, my lazyness to fix that will fight back sometime ;-)
17:26:20  <Brot6> indonesiantowns: compile of r38 still failed (#1755) -
17:26:25  <planetmaker> he
17:26:55  <Ammler> hmm
17:27:03  <Ammler> not that easy fixeable
17:27:52  <Ammler> do I need to fix it or will you change it on your project?
17:31:21  <planetmaker> what do I need to change?
17:32:06  <planetmaker> I see it also not reporting an error...
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17:47:21  <Ammler> you would need to call the full back something
17:47:24  <Ammler> packç
17:47:27  <Ammler> pack*
17:47:40  <Ammler> like full-nfo or firststart-nfo
17:52:05  <planetmaker> hm, but I like specifically 4 zips
17:58:51  <andythenorth> eveninc
18:04:43  <Ammler> pm, 4 zips is fine
18:04:50  <Ammler> but they should have different names
18:05:02  <planetmaker> they do
18:05:05  <Ammler> the full pack has no name
18:05:08  <planetmaker> look at the folder
18:05:19  <Ammler>
18:05:20  <planetmaker> it's 4 unique filenames. Or...?
18:05:32  <Ammler>
18:05:52  <Ammler> the fist should be called
18:05:54  <Ammler> or something
18:06:05  <Ammler> or I need to fix my issue ;-)
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19:01:06  <Brot6> Unable to connect to execution expired
19:15:47  <Brot6> 32bpp-ez-patches: update from r21117 to r21124 done -
19:25:41  <Ammler> planetmaker:
19:25:53  <Ammler> I fixed my issue :-P
19:26:26  <Brot6> clientpatches: update from r21117 to r21124 done -
19:28:25  <Brot6> serverpatches: compile of r21124 still failed (#1658) -
19:29:21  <Ammler> planetmaker: I would publish the readme too
19:39:26  <Ammler> also the package seems wrong to me
19:39:51  <Ammler> and you could run hg init already
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20:38:10  <andythenorth> hmm
20:38:24  <andythenorth> sometime I have to break FIRS savegames again
20:38:26  <andythenorth> :|
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21:22:18  <planetmaker> andythenorth: when it has to be done, it has to be done ;-)
21:22:41  <planetmaker> we now have the min version ... and it's not that dramatically anymore. IMOH. As it's well defined which works and which not
21:23:06  <planetmaker> and there's no need to use an inflationary amount of newgrf IDs anymore ;-)
22:11:59  <andythenorth> if this were fixed....I could at least stop layout changes being a reason for grfid bump ;)
22:11:59  <andythenorth>
22:13:16  <andythenorth> planetmaker: ^
22:14:35  <planetmaker> so you only allow certain layouts being funded? Sounds ok to me :-)
22:14:41  <planetmaker> any other differences?
22:14:56  <planetmaker> but... that doesn't break a game
22:15:13  <planetmaker> as it has no impact on existing industry, does it?
22:15:37  <andythenorth> it means layouts could be deprecated (not built new), without breaking savegames where they exist already
22:16:02  <andythenorth> if I delete a layout currently it will break games using the layout
22:16:09  <andythenorth> or at least provide broken sprites
22:16:19  <andythenorth> e.g. sugar refinery has two layouts that need removing
22:17:32  <andythenorth> what kind of cookies does frosch123 most like?
22:17:58  <planetmaker> just draw an alternative layout ;-)
22:18:05  <planetmaker> 'just' :-P
22:18:11  <andythenorth> meh
22:18:13  <andythenorth> and no
22:18:20  <planetmaker> oh :-(
22:18:29  <andythenorth> the cb28 issue is more general
22:18:52  <planetmaker> CB28 is a feature, not an issue :-)
22:20:00  <planetmaker> Adding CB28 is safe by all what I know
22:20:22  <planetmaker> Restricting human-buildable industries to some layouts fine. Though I wonder why :-)
22:20:37  <andythenorth> the main issue is that it's not possible :)
22:20:42  <planetmaker> hu?
22:20:42  <andythenorth> cb28 is 'broken' for that
22:21:16  <andythenorth> hmm
22:21:18  <planetmaker> how?
22:21:22  <andythenorth> the ticket doesn't fully explain
22:22:00  <andythenorth> it's some time since it was discussed :P
22:22:40  <andythenorth> the game should try other layouts if one is not allowed.  It doesn't
22:22:45  <planetmaker> hm, was it that each layout is tested, starting with *random* or so?
22:22:49  <andythenorth> a couple of functions need restructuring
22:22:57  <planetmaker> ah
22:23:04  <andythenorth> I have the transcript where frosch told me what is needed
22:23:16  <planetmaker> so you're requesting a pony? ;-)
22:23:44  <frosch123> wasn't it something about testing all layouts for cb 2f, but not for 28 or so?
22:24:05  <andythenorth> yes
22:24:23  <andythenorth> function returns at an inconvenient point
22:24:29  <andythenorth> or something
22:25:29  <andythenorth> frosch123: create a new fucntion, and move CheckIfIndustryTilesAreFree + CheckIfCallBackAllowsCreation into it
22:25:30  <andythenorth> [15:39] frosch123: then call that one from CreateNewIndustryHelper and the loop
22:25:58  <andythenorth> and other stuff I have in logs :P
22:26:03  <andythenorth> and yes, a pony
22:26:36  <andythenorth> but perhaps now is not the time :o
22:26:39  <andythenorth> sleep...
22:26:41  <andythenorth> zzzzzzzzzzzz
22:26:58  <andythenorth> good night
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