Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 26th November 2010:
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00:11:22  <Brot6> Backup bros: warning: repository is unrelated
00:44:12  <Brot6> British Rail OpenTTD Set - Code Review #1925: backup.push to 2cc (Ammler) @
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09:57:51  * andythenorth considers some FIRS industry costs
09:58:46  * andythenorth wonders what industry fund cost multiplier is multiplying
09:58:51  <andythenorth> some base cost I guess
09:59:23  <andythenorth> planetmaker / Terkhen: you busy?
09:59:47  <planetmaker> it's a base cost, yes
10:00:07  <andythenorth> any preferred scheme for setting industry fund costs?
10:00:17  <andythenorth> bigger == more expensive, smaller == cheaper
10:00:19  <andythenorth> ?
10:00:40  <planetmaker> yeah. Principle numbers might be nicer explained here:
10:01:17  <andythenorth> most industry is too cheap
10:01:26  <planetmaker> but within a set... Depends, I guess. A bakery is cheaper than a machine shop
10:01:28  <andythenorth> on most maps, you don't bother funding until you have money
10:02:12  <andythenorth> hmm
10:02:21  <andythenorth> fund cost is already \b255 for most industry
10:02:29  <andythenorth> I guess I have to fool with base cost :(
10:03:01  <planetmaker> Yes, then you need better adjust the base cost
10:03:12  <andythenorth> poop
10:03:22  <andythenorth> few things are simple :P
10:03:39  <planetmaker> not too difficult. Actually quite simple, even though I don't recall exact nfo syntax
10:04:21  <planetmaker> -1 * 7	00 08 01 01 0F 08 02 // Engine purchase price	to 1/4
10:04:25  <planetmaker> that's all
10:04:27  <andythenorth> what else is this going to screw with?
10:05:18  <planetmaker> 0F is the cost index.
10:05:33  <andythenorth> :)
10:05:42  <andythenorth> FISH also adjust base costs ;)
10:05:55  <planetmaker> see. Just copy & paste ;-)
10:06:39  <andythenorth> copy, paste, screw with cost of town actions, or so it seems :P
10:06:52  <planetmaker> leave out towns, I'd say
10:06:55  <planetmaker> Just industries
10:07:04  <planetmaker> Towns are for town sets to screw with
10:07:24  <andythenorth> hah
10:07:34  <andythenorth> industries are now eye-wateringly expensive
10:07:53  <andythenorth> adjusting fund cost could be an interesting feature of economies
10:08:28  <planetmaker> :-) true
10:09:53  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1532:62bcac46cb69: Feature: increase industry funding ba... (andythenorth) @
10:12:28  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1533:be846b08b94b: Feature: adjust fund cost of Aluminiu... (andythenorth) @
10:12:28  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1534:4667ed5d4e8f: Feature: adjust fund cost of Grain Mill (andythenorth) @
10:12:28  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1535:bebf959143ad: Feature: adjust fund cost of Store (andythenorth) @
10:12:30  <planetmaker> But in the end it just delays the time till when I can afford new industries ;-)
10:12:47  <planetmaker> Feature? Chane ;-)
10:12:51  <planetmaker> *Change.
10:12:53  <planetmaker> Bah
10:12:55  <andythenorth> Feature
10:12:57  <andythenorth> :P
10:15:29  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1536:60f9ae5a75b2: Feature: adjust fund cost of Biorefinery (andythenorth) @
10:15:29  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1537:ccf22d17a37f: Feature: adjust fund cost of Brewery (andythenorth) @
10:15:29  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1538:c58a46bddac2: Feature: adjust fund cost of Brickworks (andythenorth) @
10:15:31  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1539:f5af85869ff4: Feature: adjust fund cost of Builders... (andythenorth) @
10:15:35  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1540:42359a6ed137: Feature: adjust fund cost of Cement P... (andythenorth) @
10:17:27  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1541:b06fbe82c803: Feature: adjust fund cost of Dairy (andythenorth) @
10:17:27  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1542:8f1525da7020: Feature: adjust fund cost of Fertilis... (andythenorth) @
10:17:27  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1543:2f2e351a3054: Feature: adjust fund cost of Fishing ... (andythenorth) @
10:19:38  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1544:a8c15331c573: Feature: adjust fund cost of Furnitur... (andythenorth) @
10:19:38  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1545:5aaa33d9b148: Feature: adjust fund cost of Glass Works (andythenorth) @
10:19:38  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1546:7c66d90e032c: Feature: adjust fund cost of Lime Kiln (andythenorth) @
10:19:40  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1547:cbd1990a15b9: Feature: adjust fund cost of Lumber Yard (andythenorth) @
10:19:44  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1548:fd700380eaf6: Feature: adjust fund cost of Machine ... (andythenorth) @
10:19:48  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1549:92488d13a44d: Feature: adjust fund cost of Stockyard (andythenorth) @
10:25:44  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1550:23f356679964: Feature: adjust fund cost of Grain Mill (andythenorth) @
10:25:44  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1551:35f7bfb56786: Feature: adjust fund cost of Metal Fo... (andythenorth) @
10:25:44  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1552:18032b4f8c1c: Feature: adjust fund cost of Oil Refi... (andythenorth) @
10:25:46  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1553:12dd4a2d6f54: Feature: adjust fund cost of Paper Mill (andythenorth) @
10:31:05  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1554:09a23a3c2dc6: Feature: adjust fund cost of Petrol Pump (andythenorth) @
10:31:05  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1555:c77ef120a1a6: Feature: adjust fund cost of Plastics... (andythenorth) @
10:31:05  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1556:2759a6130566: Feature: adjust fund cost of Sawmill (andythenorth) @
10:31:07  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1557:dda0efaa772d: Feature: adjust fund cost of Steel Mill (andythenorth) @
10:31:11  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1558:aa4e11c172e2: Feature: adjust fund cost of Sugar Re... (andythenorth) @
10:31:15  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1559:8aaa6fad5aac: Feature: adjust fund cost of Textile ... (andythenorth) @
10:31:46  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1916: Industrial Costs (andythenorth) @
10:31:56  <andythenorth> ^^ what larks :D
10:40:01  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1916: Industrial Costs (andythenorth) @
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11:07:28  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Trains - Revision 162:f9bfdaf91ce9: Feature #1919: Adjustable purchase and running costs (planetmaker) @
11:09:52  <andythenorth> planetmaker: how about adjustable cost for FIRS industries?
11:09:56  <andythenorth> also HEQS....
11:10:28  <andythenorth> hmm
11:10:34  <andythenorth> are adjustable costs really needed for FIRS?
11:12:52  <planetmaker> adjustable costs for industries are not really needed IMHO
11:13:02  <planetmaker> Either I don't fund them. Or if, then I rarely care about money
11:13:14  <planetmaker> but that might just be me ;-)
11:14:14  <andythenorth> funding industry prevents me from getting bored
11:14:26  <andythenorth> but I think variable costs aren't needed
11:14:34  <andythenorth> for HEQS, it's for balance with other sets
11:15:09  <planetmaker> yes. There it might make sense
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11:16:32  <planetmaker> andy... oh well
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12:30:04  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Feature #1926 (New): Le Brugeoise (Voyager1) @
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14:46:25  <Brot6> HEQS "Heavy Equipment" Set - Revision 523:d51fc00ec59c: Cleanup: rename psds folder to graphics... (andythenorth) @
14:51:33  <Brot6> HEQS "Heavy Equipment" Set - Revision 524:16757d7778e2: Cleanup: rename Gmund Mog psd file (andythenorth) @
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15:10:25  <Brot6> HEQS "Heavy Equipment" Set - Revision 525:a35b952869d7: Feature: Gmund Mog rail version uses 2C... (andythenorth) @
15:14:55  <Brot6> British Rail OpenTTD Set - Code Review #1925: backup.push to 2cc (DJNekkid) @
15:15:27  <Brot6> British Rail OpenTTD Set - Code Review #1925: backup.push to 2cc (DJNekkid) @
15:31:17  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Trains - Revision 163:adf9f428fbb5: Change: Update German translation (planetmaker) @
15:37:56  <Brot6> British Rail OpenTTD Set - Revision 32:22092b231f15: Fix: Wrong size on the ___ views. Close ... ... (DJNekkid) @
15:43:35  <Brot6> HEQS "Heavy Equipment" Set - Revision 526:6b68da33a119: Feature: loaded sprites for Gmund Mog (andythenorth) @
15:47:28  <Brot6> British Rail OpenTTD Set - Bug #1927 (New): Class 365/465/465 (Ameecher) @
15:47:28  <Brot6> HEQS "Heavy Equipment" Set - Revision 527:4bf94dca3ff8: Feature: improve appearance of Gmund Mog (andythenorth) @
15:50:26  <Brot6> HEQS "Heavy Equipment" Set - Bug #1917 (Closed): DevZone compile failed (andythenorth) @
15:51:33  <Brot6> HEQS "Heavy Equipment" Set - Revision 528:92a69d5afb9e: Cleanup: Gmund Mog psd redundant graphics (andythenorth) @
15:51:33  <Brot6> HEQS "Heavy Equipment" Set - Feature #1148: Noddy all-terrain vehicle (andythenorth) @
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16:31:32  <planetmaker> damn. I'm starting to get lost in my templates in OpenGFX+Trains :S
16:32:14  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Trains - Revision 164:c5a59c987a7f: Add: Prepare passenger and mail wagons for length ch... (planetmaker) @
16:32:14  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Trains - Revision 165:10a172d969be: Change: Introduce a 7/8 length MU template (planetmaker) @
16:32:14  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Trains - Revision 166:9c7705031aca: Change: Apply the new 7/8 length template to the Tur... (planetmaker) @
16:35:00  <Brot6> British Rail OpenTTD Set - Bug #1928 (New): 465 & 466 Incompatible (Ameecher) @
16:35:43  <Brot6> British Rail OpenTTD Set - Bug #1929 (New): 466 (Ameecher) @
16:43:48  <Ammler> planetmaker: I thought, you shortened the waggons because of those clipping bugs
16:43:57  <Ammler> (in opengfx)
16:44:18  <Ammler> that is a bit strange
16:44:20  <planetmaker> Not really. I shorten it because they're shorter ;-)
16:44:34  <Ammler> hmm?
16:44:34  <planetmaker> And in OpenGFX because the depot view is 28px
16:44:56  <Ammler> then it was absolutely not worth
16:45:31  <planetmaker> Well. An ugly depot view is worth longer wagons? Na
16:45:58  <Ammler> depot view doesn't matter, yes
16:46:05  <planetmaker> that'd mean to produce buggy base set on purpose
16:47:10  <Ammler> I assume, the offsets of the maglev waggons are wrong
16:47:53  <Ammler> why do they glitch and the rest doesn't?
16:52:09  <planetmaker> current versions of openttd got better with those glitches
16:52:23  <planetmaker> so testing in trunk will fake better results than a stable version gives you
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17:08:48  <Brot6> grfcodec: update from r809 to r810 done -
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17:10:03  <Brot6> nml: update from r1041 to r1043 done -
17:10:45  <Rubidium> massive recompile coming! :)
17:14:34  <planetmaker> hm?
17:14:55  <Rubidium> both grfcodec and nml are changed; then almost everything gets recompiled, right?
17:15:08  <planetmaker> oye. I guess, yes
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17:18:27  <Brot6> firs: update from r1531 to r1559 done (1 errors) -
17:18:30  <Brot6> British Rail OpenTTD Set - Bug #1930 (New): DevZone compile failed (compiler) @
17:19:00  <Brot6> heqs: update from r521 to r528 done -
17:19:24  <Brot6> ogfx-trains: update from r158 to r166 done -
17:20:39  <Brot6> opengfx: update from r557 to r558 done -
17:20:44  <Brot6> Following repos didn't need a nightlies update: 2cctrainset (r684), 32bpp-extra (r39), ai-admiralai (r75), airportsplus (r69), basecosts (r22), belarusiantowns (r7), comic-houses (r71), fish (r423), frenchtowns (r4), grfcodec (r810), indonesiantowns (r38), manindu (r5), metrotrackset (r56), newgrf_makefile (r236), nml (r1043), nutracks (r117), ogfx-rv (r57), ogfx-trees (r41), openmsx (r97), opensfx (r97), smts (r19), snowlinemod (r45),
17:20:44  <Brot6> swedishrails (r188), swisstowns (r21), transrapidtrackset (r15), ttdviewer (r26), ttrs (r23), worldairlinersset (r669)
17:22:44  <Brot6> bros: compile of r32 still failed (#1930) -
17:24:07  <Brot6> indonesiantowns: compile of r38 still failed (#1873) -
17:24:18  <Ammler> DJNekkid: does it build for you?
17:25:38  <Ammler> I would assume, the makefile framework is a bit outdated
17:26:36  <Brot6> swedishrails: rebuild of r188 done (Diffsize: 6) (DiffDiffsize: 8) -
17:28:41  <Brot6> Following repos rebuilds successful without any difference to earlier nightlies builds: 2cctrainset (8 errors), 32bpp-extra (Diffsize: 1), airportsplus (Diffsize: 6), basecosts, belarusiantowns (3 errors) (Diffsize: 21), comic-houses (2 errors) (Diffsize: 14), fish (4 errors), frenchtowns (4 errors) (Diffsize: 9), manindu, metrotrackset (Diffsize: 1), nutracks (2 errors), ogfx-rv (1 errors), ogfx-trees, smts (Diffsize: 8), snowlinemod,
17:28:41  <Brot6> swisstowns, transrapidtrackset (Diffsize: 12), ttrs (7 errors) (Diffsize: 1324), worldairlinersset
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17:33:06  <planetmaker> Probably forgotten 'add'
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17:46:26  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Trains - Revision 167:6d0e87729fbd: Change: Actually use x parameter in template (planetmaker) @
17:48:37  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Trains - Revision 168:6b4825126e7f: Add: Provide our own sprites for maglev and monorail... (planetmaker) @
18:23:37  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Trains - Revision 169:85294add650d: Fix: Add missing template (planetmaker) @
18:29:32  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Feature #1931 (New): Am 4/6 (Voyager1) @
19:02:36  <Brot6> 32bpp-ez-patches: update from r21324 to r21333 done (2 errors) -
19:04:59  <Brot6> clientpatches: update from r21324 to r21333 done -
19:05:36  <Brot6> serverpatches: compile of r21333 still failed (#1855) -
19:13:54  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Trains - Revision 170:446911e4ba18: Add: Modify engine templates so that they accept a r... (planetmaker) @
19:13:54  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Trains - Revision 171:814bf62b82c6: Add: Livery override for Lev3 engine (planetmaker) @
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19:44:43  <Brot6> British Rail OpenTTD Set - Revision 33:f3c3fc0ed853: Change: Removed 'Connex' from the 466 (DJNekkid) @
19:45:40  <Brot6> British Rail OpenTTD Set - Bug #1928 (Closed): 465 & 466 Incompatible (Ameecher) @
19:45:40  <Brot6> British Rail OpenTTD Set - Bug #1928 (Closed): 465 & 466 Incompatible (DJNekkid) @
19:46:50  <Brot6> British Rail OpenTTD Set - Bug #1929 (Closed): 466 (Ameecher) @
19:46:50  <Brot6> British Rail OpenTTD Set - Bug #1929 (Closed): 466 (DJNekkid) @
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19:59:58  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Feature #1395: sprite layouts (yexo) @
20:10:18  <Yexo> planetmaker: are there any plans for an ogfx+ships or ogfx+aircraft?
20:17:42  <Ammler> Yexo: the idea is to have such grf, but there is no plan to make one :-)
20:25:44  <planetmaker> Yexo: The idea is to have those, too. Yes. Concerning aircraft, there's some code on the life time extension of the guru X2 helicopter in the ogfxplus repo (the old one)
20:26:09  <planetmaker> But refit capabilities for those ships and planes would very much be welcome
20:26:27  <planetmaker> So yes: plans are there, but not beyond "should be done" ;-)
20:26:27  <Terkhen> and adjusted capacities for the ships
20:26:34  <Yexo> ok, thanks :)
20:27:40  <planetmaker> If you want to do that or start it - feel free. But I guess you also have sufficiently many different sites
20:27:48  <planetmaker> to build something
20:28:07  <Yexo> nah, I'd rather continue work on nml itself
20:28:31  <planetmaker> :-) Yeah
20:29:02  <planetmaker> where would actually 'best' go a list of changes to a newgrf which make it incompatible with a previous version?
20:29:24  <planetmaker> I just discovered that changing the length of vehicles is PRETTY bad ;-)
20:29:26  <Yexo> changelog.txt ?
20:29:32  <planetmaker> no, generally
20:29:34  <Yexo> oh, in that way
20:29:42  <Yexo> yes, changing vehicle length is bad
20:29:44  <planetmaker> Like reference for newgrf authors
20:30:06  <Yexo> ttdpatch wiki might be the best place, but I dislike it
20:30:15  <planetmaker> Yes. and yes
20:30:41  <Yexo> openttd wiki might also be good, but it's very hard to find something in there unless you know exactly where it is
20:30:43  <planetmaker> On a tangent to that: how do I make sure that NML keeps the vehicle IDs?
20:30:54  <Yexo> you assign an id manually
20:30:59  <planetmaker> hm
20:31:03  <planetmaker> I guess, yes
20:31:06  <Yexo> or at least don't change the order of the vehicles
20:31:19  <Yexo> ids are assigned in order, so if the order stays the same so do the ids
20:31:26  <planetmaker> ok
20:32:25  <planetmaker> Well... continuing the question round: IIRC you (or Hirundo?) added capability to read other NewGRFs parameters. I found also something to that end in NML code, but probably missed the exact syntax...
20:32:33  <planetmaker> and the docs are silent about that :-)
20:32:52  <Yexo> it's in the regression tests
20:33:03  <Yexo> 014 to be exact
20:33:10  <Yexo> param[0x13] = param["NML", 0];
20:33:25  <Yexo> reads parameter 0 from the newgrf with id "NML"
20:33:28  <planetmaker> thank you
20:36:35  <Yexo> more importantly the nml docs seem to miss a general section about what exactly is allowed in an expression
20:36:52  <planetmaker> nearly everything ;-)
20:37:28  <Yexo> yes, but the documentation never mentions that "AAA" + "BBB" is a valid expression
20:37:37  <Yexo> nor param[grfid, number] for that matter
20:39:50  <planetmaker> :-)
20:59:59  <Yexo> I'm thinking about changing the line "lang: 15" to "##grflangid 0x15" to be more in line with openttd's language files
21:01:03  <Yexo> any reasons not to do that?
21:01:15  <planetmaker> not really I guess
21:02:22  <planetmaker> Are there multi-line macros in CPP?
21:02:30  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Trains - Revision 172:a7a064997d7d: Fix: Use railtype in more places (planetmaker) @
21:02:42  <planetmaker> The error messages became useless when everything is in one macro-line ;-)
21:03:16  <Yexo> feel free to try and add the column to the location so it can be shown in the error messages
21:03:42  <Yexo> but I guess even than it'll be useless when using big macros
21:04:43  <planetmaker> they're pretty big, yes...
21:06:48  <planetmaker> I've put most logic into the macros... cutting down an engine implementation to one macro call :-P
21:07:36  <planetmaker> including livery override for all existing wagons etc pp
21:07:47  <Yexo> nice :)
21:07:52  <Yexo> until you have to debug of course :p
21:07:59  <planetmaker> yeah :-)
21:09:04  * Yexo wonders what is more work: rewriting the language file code from scratch or trying to copy as much from strgen as possible
21:09:16  <Yexo> s/copy/convert to python/
21:11:25  <planetmaker> the latter might make sure you will less likely miss on of the certainly many quirks within there
21:13:13  <Yexo> also: keep default.lng or switch to english.lng for the base translation?
21:20:17  <planetmaker> hm
21:20:35  <planetmaker> I like default.lng
21:20:41  <planetmaker> after all I can define English, too
21:20:45  <planetmaker> and EnglishUS
21:21:31  <planetmaker> so actually, 7F != English
21:21:50  <planetmaker> 00 and 01 are EnglishUS and EnglishUK
21:40:31  <Yexo> ok, so default.lng it is
21:41:45  <planetmaker> <-- initial list added here
21:49:06  <welshdragon> DJNekkid, did you see the BROS compile failed?
21:55:53  <planetmaker> Ammler: why do _I_ get e-mail about CF failur on BROS?
21:57:27  <Rubidium> planetmaker: because you're more likely to take a look at such mails
21:57:47  <planetmaker> he :-P
21:58:35  <andythenorth> bros doesn't build for me either
22:02:06  <welshdragon> ooer
22:03:12  <planetmaker> yes, DJN didn't add all required files from the makefile framework
22:03:24  <planetmaker> scripts/nfoheader.nfo is missing
22:04:01  <planetmaker> go and fix that, welshdragon ;-)
22:04:13  <planetmaker> I don't have write permission there ;-)
22:04:14  <planetmaker> you do
22:06:01  <welshdragon> there you go ;)
22:11:41  <Yexo> is textdirection in any way important for newgrf strings?
22:13:59  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Trains - Revision 173:cef309106703: Add: One missing file and two source graphics files (planetmaker) @
22:14:55  <planetmaker> Hm... I can't think of a place right now, Yexo.
22:15:01  <planetmaker> what about the error messages, though?
22:16:03  <Yexo> part of the error message could be english and part in a rtl language
22:17:41  <Rubidium> that's usually done correctly, unless characters are used where it's uncertain which text direction they belong to, e.g. (),;. etc.
22:20:57  <Ammler> planetmaker: who is it assigned to?
22:21:57  <Ammler> maybe djn did reassign to you
22:22:08  <planetmaker>
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22:22:56  <Ammler> why do you paste the issue and not just link it?
22:23:34  <planetmaker> I pasted the e-mail I got ;-)
22:23:41  * Rubidium seems to remember receiving a compile failed message of some project I'm not associated with
22:24:01  <planetmaker> same thing hiere
22:24:04  <planetmaker> *here even
22:24:27  <Ammler> can't explain :-(
22:24:28  <planetmaker> I'm not member, I didn't contribute to that thread nor did I ever commit anything there
22:24:51  <Ammler> if you paste a mail, you should paste with source
22:25:50  <planetmaker> I don't want to paste e-mail addresses. I can forward to you.
22:26:26  <Ammler> well, if it is your address only, no need
22:26:40  <Ammler> who is the sender?
22:27:56  <planetmaker> devzone@...
22:28:05  <Ammler> I see no mail outgoing to you today
22:28:10  <planetmaker> it's sent to undisclosed recipients
22:28:19  <Yexo> what should nml do when a language file contains an error? 1. try to parse as many lines as possible and ignore only the wrongs ones. 2. Ignore the complete language file that contains the error but continue otherwise. 3. Abort compilation completely
22:28:21  <Ammler> well, should still be in the logs
22:28:48  <planetmaker> it's the 2nd mail going to
22:29:06  <planetmaker> the first was about HEQS about 16:49 today
22:29:12  <Yexo> I think I'll do 3.
22:29:13  <Ammler> hmm
22:29:31  <Ammler> Yexo: just abort that language and print a error
22:29:52  <Ammler> so 2.
22:29:54  <planetmaker> Yexo: I'd choose 2, but 3 is fine, too
22:30:21  <Ammler> 3 might become problematic if you ever will introduce some automatic translation systems
22:30:43  <planetmaker> that'd work outside of the grf
22:32:00  <Ammler> Nov 25 00:10:34 <-- last mail to you in /var/log/mail
22:32:03  <Yexo> 2. it is
22:32:21  <Yexo> an error in default.lng will still abort compilation though
22:32:38  * Ammler doesn't have a default.lng :-)
22:32:48  <planetmaker> sure, default.lng is crucial
22:32:58  <Ammler> called english.lng here
22:33:38  <Yexo> Ammler: than you better rename it, as projects without default.lng won't compile in future versions of nml
22:33:57  <Yexo> unless you can convince me and planetmaker that english.lng is really a better name than default.lng
22:34:06  <Ammler> what else then english could default be?
22:34:29  <planetmaker> By the specs any
22:34:51  <Ammler> yes, but which language is that?
22:35:00  <planetmaker> Esperanto
22:35:08  <Rubidium> Ido
22:35:11  <Yexo> it could be any language
22:35:29  <Ammler> ok, I might simply symlink it
22:36:04  <Yexo> having both english.lng and default.lng might give trouble
22:36:13  <Ammler> true
22:36:17  <Yexo> langid 7F is required for default.lng, but not valid for english.lng
22:36:21  <Ammler> well then, whatever you will do
22:36:41  <Ammler> not the first time, nml does break my grfs :-)
22:36:59  <Yexo> nml 0.1 isn't out yet :p
22:37:07  <Ammler> Yexo: can't you not simply read the langid in the file?
22:37:26  <Yexo> yes, but I'd like to have one filename as default, so I can compare other language files with that file
22:37:30  <Ammler> the filename should not have influence
22:37:55  <Yexo> and reading from the file means I have to parse all files before I know which one is the default
22:38:18  <Ammler> then you should get rid of the langid
22:38:21  <Ammler> and use filenames only
22:38:34  <Yexo> filename matters only for default.lng
22:39:03  <Ammler> yes, exactly for that file, which _I_ would like to call english :-P
22:39:29  <Ammler> the langid is anyway not nml style
22:39:38  <Yexo> would a command-line argument for the name of the default language file be ok?
22:39:53  <planetmaker> YACLO
22:39:57  <planetmaker> :-)
22:40:02  <Yexo> true :)
22:40:04  <Ammler> not really
22:40:19  <Rubidium> one big "drawback" for the default language is that the choice list stuff doesn't work as it can't be nicely/easily mapped at load time
22:40:38  <Ammler> did you benchmark reading files, does it really cost so much?
22:40:42  <Yexo> I know
22:40:44  <Yexo> it doesn't
22:40:49  <Ammler> you need to read those anyway
22:40:50  <Yexo> it's just more work to code, for little benefit
22:41:11  <Ammler> yes, I would get rid of any
22:41:14  * planetmaker prefers a fixed default language file over an incomplete NML
22:41:15  <Ammler> and use english instead
22:41:54  <Ammler> I do not get planetmaker serious, that he uses Esparanto for default
22:42:04  <planetmaker> well, then English. But how do you then call languageIDs 00 and 01 in nfo?
22:42:14  <Ammler> 01 is american
22:42:18  <planetmaker> 00
22:42:20  <Ammler> or other side
22:42:22  <planetmaker> 01 is BE
22:42:23  <Ammler> yes :-)
22:42:27  <Ammler> doesn't matter
22:42:51  <Ammler> nml uses english as "any"
22:43:00  <Ammler> and english
22:43:11  <Yexo> no, it only uses it as "any"
22:43:15  <Ammler> so you have fixed the rubi issue
22:43:19  <Yexo> most nml projects don't have an english translation
22:43:32  <planetmaker> :-D
22:43:34  <Ammler> Yexo: the default there is english, isn't?
22:43:35  <planetmaker> Any at all?
22:43:41  <Yexo> Ammler: no, the default is "any"
22:43:46  <Ammler> omg
22:43:50  <Ammler> nobody has english
22:43:58  <Yexo> the strings for "any" are in english most of the time
22:44:00  <Ammler> that is the whole point :-P
22:44:36  <Ammler> it is simply not needed to support a default language other than english, imo
22:44:53  <planetmaker> well. I don't really care too much. 'default' has the advantage that it's not a language name and clear that it's the master file
22:45:01  <Yexo> what about non-native english speakers?
22:45:12  <Yexo> they might want to create a newgrf that doesn't have english at all
22:45:22  <Yexo> s/-native//
22:46:04  <Ammler> ok, then the console option is fine :-P
22:46:18  <Ammler> but default to english.lng, not default please
22:46:56  <Ammler> and then you copy the language of the default to any and the langid it has
22:47:16  <planetmaker> e.g. an alpine scenario newgrf might default to Swiss German ;-)
22:47:29  <planetmaker> holladilödiüüü! ;-)
22:47:50  <Ammler> yes, but I would then call the file mäh.lng, not default
22:48:18  <planetmaker> Ammler: you really want all my newgrfs to change from default.lng to english.lng? ;-)
22:48:28  <Ammler> why?
22:48:32  <Yexo> Rubidium: the plural choice list does work for the default language, right?
22:49:08  <Ammler> also my suggestion is compliant with openttd
22:49:45  <Rubidium> Yexo: as long as the plural type of the language is the same you made the plural list for, yes. Otherwise: nope
22:50:04  <Rubidium> for different variants of "work" though
22:50:35  <Yexo> I'm talking about the plural type of language 7F
22:50:51  <Yexo> which can't be changed, and is always 0, right?
22:51:18  <Rubidium> oh, I changed it so the plural form is set in the choice list
22:51:24  <Rubidium> so it should [tm] work
22:51:47  <Ammler> my vote: get rid of any, define a default language which will be copied to any, let option change default language
22:51:47  <Rubidium> no guarantees though; might very well be that something is eager to ignore the stringcode because there's no language
22:52:16  <Ammler> if  there is only one file, just use it
22:52:35  <Yexo> <Rubidium> oh, I changed it so the plural form is set in the choice list <- where is the spec for that?
22:52:40  <Yexo> can't find it on
22:53:08  <Yexo> that page refers to which mentions: "Language-id 7F (any) is not allowed. "
22:54:13  <Yexo> or does that mean that a plural choice list in a string with language-id 7F will only work if the currently selected language in openttd has plural form 0
22:55:38  * Rubidium thinks he needs sleep
22:55:56  * Rubidium wonders where he got the idea the plural was in the choice list
22:56:03  * Rubidium thinks that might be in OpenTTD's code
22:56:25  <Rubidium> but given you need an action0 to set the plural form, you can't use plurals in 7F/default
22:56:49  <Yexo> I guessed as much
22:57:11  <Yexo> which means that to support english properly (with plurals) newgrfs will need to start using language-id 01
22:57:31  <Rubidium> yes
22:57:36  <Yexo> Ammler: sorry for you, ^^ means I'll go for default.lng as english.lng will be needed
22:58:03  <Rubidium> and "any" will be some brain-dead language
22:58:29  <Yexo> english with mistakes
22:58:30  <Rubidium> you *could* use english.lng and strip the plural/cases/genders from it to "generate" 7F
22:59:31  <Yexo> yes, but that gets ugly if someone uses: {P bag bags} instead of bag{P "" s}
22:59:44  <Yexo> batter{P y ies} <- better example
23:00:00  <Rubidium> just always use plural 0 :)
23:01:53  <Yexo> planetmaker: any opinion?
23:03:44  <planetmaker> uh... you mean whether to strip a plural-ladden English file?
23:03:46  <Rubidium> why do I start thinking onion pie? Does that even exist?
23:03:47  <planetmaker> Sounds bad
23:04:08  <planetmaker> Rubidium: sure it does! And VERY delicious
23:04:14  <planetmaker> With cream
23:04:30  <Yexo> with cream?
23:04:37  <planetmaker>
23:04:38  <Webster> Title: zwiebelkuchen - Google-Suche (at
23:04:41  <planetmaker> sure :-)
23:04:45  <planetmaker> Sour cream
23:04:46  <Yexo> onion pie does exist though, and it's indeed delicious
23:04:50  <Yexo> ah :)
23:05:16  <planetmaker> damn you, Rubidium ;-)
23:05:25  <planetmaker> Where do I get an onion pie from NOW?
23:05:40  <Rubidium> without the e, from opinion
23:06:45  <Yexo> planetmaker: take '{COMMA} passenger{P "" s}' as example
23:07:07  <planetmaker> I understood it right that default cannot use that?
23:07:09  <Yexo> the "any" language needs '{COMMA} passenger' (or '{COMMA} passengers'
23:07:17  <Yexo> indeed
23:07:33  <planetmaker> don't go through the hassle of stripping that. It'll fail
23:07:57  <Yexo> if we go for a default.lng and manually write '{COMMA} passengers' it will be far less obvious to translators that they can use plurals
23:08:13  <planetmaker> true :-(
23:09:30  <Yexo> and it means you have to update default.lng, english.lng and american.lng to change the string. If we go for generating "any" from english we could also copy the english to american in case plurals are used (and there is no american string defined)
23:09:53  <Yexo> nor sure about the last part, probably that should be left out
23:10:31  <planetmaker> Hm... don't leave it out. But ok. Sounds all like a HUGE box of worms. If it works, it's genious, though
23:11:07  <Yexo> meh, two hours discussion and still (almost) no code written :(
23:11:27  <planetmaker> go for the complicated stuff then :-)
23:11:38  <Yexo> I will :)
23:11:51  <planetmaker> But better discussed first than writing lots and throwing way even more hours
23:12:02  <Yexo> true
23:24:31  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Trains - Revision 174:24218ec64e26: Feature: Wood with loading stages on flatbed wagon (planetmaker) @
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