Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 13th February 2011:
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00:05:01  <Yexo> not sure again, I tried a few days ago
00:05:04  <Yexo> will try again tomorrow
00:05:22  * Yexo is gone for the rest of the evening/night
01:17:28  *** KenjiE20 has quit IRC
01:29:18  *** Lakie has quit IRC
01:43:31  *** thgergo has quit IRC
01:49:57  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Feature #885: Toyland House and Industry Ground tile (2006TTD) @
05:33:09  <Brot6> Bundles Update: g24b8cc44 2011-02-13 cargodist   (
06:37:14  *** andythenorth has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
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06:42:16  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #2318 (New): Parameter to prevent industry opening during... (andythenorth) @
06:56:41  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1794:8ac726912e18: Fix: missing cargo amount string for ... (andythenorth) @
07:03:49  <andythenorth> DJNekkid: you here?  Or just bouncing?
07:08:16  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #2318: Parameter to prevent industry opening during game (planetmaker) @
07:13:56  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #2318: Parameter to prevent industry opening during game (andythenorth) @
07:16:46  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #2318: Parameter to prevent industry opening during game (planetmaker) @
07:17:07  <andythenorth> planetmaker: 'open' isn't finished yet ;)
07:17:15  <planetmaker> ok :-)
07:17:29  <andythenorth> I might look at it soon
07:17:36  <andythenorth> also...I wanted to refactor more cargo strings
07:17:49  <andythenorth> but I don't want to cause more translation headaches
07:17:58  <planetmaker> don't worry about translations
07:18:12  <planetmaker> refactor strings which need to be refactored
07:18:42  <planetmaker> The only time where you don't want to do that is between 0.9 and 1.0
07:19:03  <planetmaker> or x.9 and (x+1).0
07:19:46  <planetmaker> if you want, you could also not refactor them between 0.x.y and 0.x.(y+1) - but then you'd need to branch
07:19:53  <planetmaker> not sure it's worth it
07:19:56  <andythenorth> I should just not do that then :)
07:33:36  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1795:4555be3c8af8: Change: (translations) refactor strin... (andythenorth) @
07:33:44  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I can't figure this one out:
07:33:49  <andythenorth> at least, for plantation
07:37:01  <andythenorth> maybe I just try setting prop 1A to 0
07:37:05  <andythenorth> currently it's unset
07:37:13  <planetmaker> use a proper substitute / override type ;-)
07:37:37  <andythenorth> nah
07:37:43  <planetmaker> honestly, yes
07:38:27  <andythenorth> actually, why are we using 00 for INDUSTRY_NULL in prop 08?
07:38:29  <andythenorth> it should be FF
07:38:38  <planetmaker> and setting explicitly the prop 1A helps, too
07:39:07  <andythenorth> I think many FIRS industries are setup wrong
07:39:22  <planetmaker> :-)
07:40:53  <planetmaker> hm, what about flag 0x02 for the sawmill? ;-)
07:42:10  <andythenorth> it is requested every now and then, and I ignore it :)
07:42:11  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #2319 (New): INDUSTRY_NULL value for prop 08 incorrect (andythenorth) @
07:43:17  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #2319 (New): INDUSTRY_NULL value for prop 08 incorrect (andythenorth) @
07:44:22  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1796:6c1318745787: Fix: (untested) reported that Plantat... (andythenorth) @
07:45:23  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1797:fc9185755b1d: Fix: (untested) reported that Oil Wel... (andythenorth) @
07:45:46  <planetmaker> hehe
07:46:21  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #2088 (Feedback): Oil wells and plantations cause subsidence ... (andythenorth) @
07:53:27  <Brot6> DictatorAI - Revision 21:307510b476ca: - Some cleanup for release (soon) (krinn) @
07:53:27  <Brot6> DictatorAI - Revision 22:d1179eaec1cc: - Separate road pathfinding & road construction, so we cou... (krinn) @
07:53:27  <Brot6> DictatorAI - Revision 23:7accbde76f18: - More road vehicle build after route creating (krinn) @
07:55:53  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1798:df2e550198d6: Fix: [Makefile] Rebuild when needed. ... (planetmaker) @
07:56:15  <andythenorth> nearly r1800 :)
08:00:23  <planetmaker> I think I understood now the fence magic :-)
08:00:37  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 570:f6119125a87f: Change: work in progress on graphics for Klyazma hydrofoil (andythenorth) @
08:00:48  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I don't :D
08:00:52  <andythenorth> I do understand pixels :P
08:00:54  <planetmaker> it's easy :-P
08:01:33  <andythenorth> care to explain the general approach?
08:01:42  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 571:a6048d97b4c1: Change: work in progress on graphics for 818 hydrofoil (andythenorth) @
08:02:07  <planetmaker> :-)
08:05:11  <planetmaker> I can try
08:05:27  <planetmaker> basically you define for each tile what fences it may use in principle
08:05:46  <planetmaker> and then you just use the fence template to have it generate all needed action2s
08:06:06  <planetmaker> it receives the other building sprites for that action2 as a sort-of parameter
08:06:29  <planetmaker> *the other part of that action2 with the other building sprite references
08:06:33  <planetmaker> to be more exact
08:07:49  <andythenorth> so it's like inserting a block of code into a fence template?
08:08:41  <planetmaker> somewhat, yes. The template-magic automatically determines the number of choices which need to be generated in that action2
08:08:51  <planetmaker> so you don't have to bother with the possible options
08:10:05  <planetmaker>
08:10:46  <planetmaker> ^ that's how then the ...tiles_layout.pnfo looks like for the building sprites
08:11:16  <planetmaker> each current setID for a tile is modified to look like that
08:11:55  <planetmaker> define setID. define (normal) building sprite part. Define possible fences. include fences template
08:11:58  <planetmaker> repeat for each setID
08:13:20  <planetmaker> the templates then work this way:
08:13:47  <planetmaker> they call a fence proc to see what needs drawing. And that is then branched to the differently fenced action2s
08:15:08  <planetmaker> the possible action2s were defined by the fences you defined. Each fence is guarded ifdef...
08:19:10  <andythenorth> ok that much makes sense then
08:19:45  <planetmaker> FENCE_SW basically means to draw a fence, if only the SW tile is a non-industry tile
08:20:08  <andythenorth> so it also takes care of neighbouring tile checks already?
08:20:10  <andythenorth> I missed that
08:21:12  <planetmaker> what does not seem to work is to only draw a fence in the SE direction when the SE and SW direction are non-industry tiles. Or I didn't quite figure it out yet
08:21:49  <andythenorth> I can't figure why the building sprite is drawn over the fence in one case for cement plant
08:22:03  <andythenorth> it should be due simply to order of sprites
08:22:10  <andythenorth> maybe it is :P
08:22:21  <andythenorth> CPP can't do basic maths can it?
08:25:20  <planetmaker> it can't do that, right
08:26:25  * andythenorth wonders if an external script could
08:27:11  <planetmaker> yes. But that'd mean to implant a separate language on top
08:27:42  <planetmaker> in a way Yexo implemented some simple adding algorith to it which can add +1 up to a value of 15
08:27:56  <planetmaker> see count.pnfo
08:28:45  <andythenorth> oops, I was thinking in connection to a FISH problem :)
08:28:50  <andythenorth> but I forgot to mention that
08:29:02  <andythenorth> I'll just do it explicitly with defines
08:29:16  <planetmaker> what do you need?
08:31:15  <andythenorth> I have hydrofoils which lift above water to a height depending on speed
08:31:28  <andythenorth> changing the offsets in the source graphics is a maintenance headache
08:31:38  <andythenorth> and I have templated the action 1s to death :P
08:31:46  <andythenorth> but it's fine, I just create more defines
08:32:10  <andythenorth> I wondered about doing maths on the y offset for action 1
08:32:18  <andythenorth> but defines are more robust and less work :)
08:32:44  <planetmaker> math on offsets is not really possible
08:32:53  <andythenorth> indeed
08:33:02  <andythenorth> unless it was scripted with python or something
08:33:04  <planetmaker> and the reason why I introduced nml to opengfx. Because I can do that there ;-)
08:34:00  <planetmaker> that's probably the one thing I miss most in nfo
08:34:44  <andythenorth> 'magic' :P
08:34:46  <planetmaker> one could probably write a small python script which replaces a special character sequence by the result of the enclosed math operation, though
08:34:47  <andythenorth> heh
08:35:05  <andythenorth> ach, it's often safer and easier just to write it out long hand
08:35:17  <andythenorth> trying to figure out what some helper is doing is less explicity
08:36:37  <planetmaker> well... yes
08:37:28  <planetmaker> but like realsprite(filename, x,y, width, height, xoffset, yoffset) with the 6 numeric parameters being a readable formula is not difficult ;-)
08:37:38  <andythenorth> indeed
08:37:38  <planetmaker> and makes it easy
08:37:53  <andythenorth> -1 sprites/graphics/THIS_PCX_FILE  20  10 01  THIS_Y_X_CROP_1  THIS_SPEED_0_OFFS_X_Y_1
08:37:58  <andythenorth> is what I have already
08:38:08  <andythenorth> anyway, this problem is considered solved :)
08:38:12  <planetmaker> and as good as it gets without further pre-processing :-)
08:39:10  <planetmaker> so basically what the fence routine now does is:
08:40:26  <planetmaker> "draw fences around all open sides, if (definable) sides are free"
08:40:48  <andythenorth> makes sense
08:41:15  <planetmaker> it also would make sense to have "draw fences on (selected) sides if they are free"
08:42:14  <andythenorth> that would actually make more sense
08:42:42  <andythenorth> my main concern is actually about writing and maintaining action 2s
08:42:54  <planetmaker> well, that is solved nicely :-)
08:43:01  <andythenorth> because they're generated, adding new industry, and debugging could be harder
08:43:07  <andythenorth> or maybe I just haven't grokked it yet
08:43:11  <planetmaker> I wonder if the condition can be changed
08:43:33  <andythenorth> I also worry about what happens if anyone ever needs to take over the set...the more complex it is, the more likely to die
08:43:37  <planetmaker> the action2 sequence in (pre-processed) nfo is rather length and not well readable
08:43:52  <andythenorth> maybe it's just a question of formatting etc
08:44:18  <planetmaker> the cpp pre-processor kind of writes it in chunks... :
08:44:59  <planetmaker>
08:46:44  <planetmaker> hm, this recent makefile fix was urgently needed...
08:47:32  <planetmaker> so much more convenient if I can just call 'make install' ;-)
08:49:15  <andythenorth> hmm
08:49:26  <andythenorth> I have grown attached to 'make clean && make install'
08:49:33  <andythenorth> and the extra delay is....thinking time :P
08:50:48  <planetmaker> is the fences diff somewhere attached to a ticket?
08:53:02  <andythenorth> no
08:53:18  <planetmaker> well, I'll create one
08:53:26  <planetmaker> and toy around with it a bit more
08:53:33  <andythenorth> thanks
08:53:46  <andythenorth> at the moment I wouldn't ship it because I don't understand it
08:53:47  <planetmaker> maybe I'll get it to "draw fence in that direction when free"
08:53:49  <andythenorth> and that's a bad pattern :)
08:53:53  <planetmaker> yeah
08:53:57  <planetmaker> I'd ship it :-P
08:54:23  <andythenorth> he
08:54:24  <planetmaker> But it took me well an hour to completely follow it in all parts ;-)
09:00:14  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #2320 (New): Fences for industries (planetmaker) @
09:24:31  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 572:460474019404: Change: work in progress on Hydrofoils - now correctly shows el... (andythenorth) @
09:25:07  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 573:ba1b3490363d: Add: source file for cars (to use in Ferries) - cars by colossa... (andythenorth) @
10:30:10  <Yexo> planetmaker: disabling fences in a single direction can't be done indeed with the current patch
10:32:18  <planetmaker> Yexo: rather enabling them is what I'd fancy (when the adjacent tile is free) - but, yes, I think it can be modified to fit that, too :-)
10:32:29  <planetmaker> by the same method
10:33:04  <Yexo> is there a difference? explicitly enabling fences or explicitly disabling them results in the same ;)
10:33:15  <planetmaker> :-) quite true
10:33:58  <planetmaker> however I fancy the way you wrote that patch a lot :-)
10:34:22  <Yexo> I think explicitly enabling fences an be done by masking the result of the procedure call
10:34:39  <Yexo> did anyone make any changes or is the version I upload still the last version?
10:35:41  <planetmaker> I added yours and mine to the ticket. But mine is not really different except a comment on the FENCES_XYZ defines and applying it to the furniture factory (which I did only to follow how it works)
10:36:18  <planetmaker> so yes, yours is the last version
10:40:16  <Yexo> Added a define to enable fences in some directions. Search for ENABLED_FENCES to see the changes
10:44:35  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 574:efe5bfef5dd4: Feature: 818 Hydrofoil with complete set of speed-sensitive spr... (andythenorth) @
10:45:02  <Brot6> FISH - Bug #2321 (New): Broken down hydrofoil doesn't use 'not moving' graphics (andythenorth) @
10:47:35  <planetmaker> so... ENABLED_FENCES_XYZ would just need a few more defined constants and each industry tile would then not only define FENCES but also - if desired ENABLED_FENCES?
10:49:54  <Yexo> I'm reworking it slightly now
10:57:55  <Yexo> updated diff
10:58:44  <Yexo> I changed the tile with ID 06 to never print a fence at the SW border
10:58:57  <planetmaker> of the cement plant?
10:59:01  <Yexo> yes
10:59:36  <Yexo> you probably didn't want to change that one, but it serves as an example of how to do it
11:00:28  <planetmaker> indeed, the actual assignment of what fence goes where and  when is quite secondary :-)
11:08:21  <Yexo> andythenorth: if you let me know which parts of the diff you don't understand I can try to explain those
11:09:13  <andythenorth> ok
11:09:21  <andythenorth> I should probably try and apply it to a new industry
11:09:27  <andythenorth> then I'll figure it out
11:09:30  <andythenorth> "learn by doing"
11:09:31  <planetmaker> yep. That helped me :-)
11:10:05  <andythenorth> I'm doing some FISHing at the moment
11:10:09  <andythenorth> but that will be done soon
11:11:55  <Yexo> example of how to convert a single tile
11:14:59  <planetmaker> that doesn't include the ENABLE_FENCES :-)
11:15:39  <planetmaker> hm... given that FENCES... adds fences everywhere - shouldn't the optional "parameter" be DISABLE_FENCES?
11:15:45  <planetmaker> instead of ENABLE_FENCES?
11:15:55  <planetmaker> or did I not quite follow what you added?
11:16:29  <Yexo> that is what I proposed, but you wanted "enable_fences" instead of "disable_fences"
11:16:58  <Yexo> fortunately it's easy to change :)
11:17:12  <planetmaker> :-) I thought of it as replacing the FENCES
11:17:27  <Yexo> I'm not sure how that could work
11:17:33  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 575:099ef8f4234e: Feature: Klyazma Hydrofoil with complete set of speed-sensitive... (andythenorth) @
11:17:47  <Yexo> or did you want to hardcode which fences are enabled?
11:17:48  <planetmaker> I didn't quite dwell on how to change it - so I might be quite wrong there
11:18:08  <planetmaker> but my idea was to tell each tile "you may draw a fence in the SE (if there's free)"
11:18:20  <planetmaker> "you may draw a fence in the NW (if there's free)" etc
11:18:55  <Yexo> that is what "enable_fences" currently does
11:19:05  <Yexo> "fences" is just there to limit the total amount of action2's
11:19:10  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 576:450c85e45953: Change: cleanup PSD file a bit for 818 Hydrofoil (andythenorth) @
11:19:35  <Yexo> #define FENCES 0x3FFF <- you could just use that for every tile and it'd still work
11:19:58  <Yexo> so you could add that to tile_fences.pnfo as default and never define it
11:20:23  <Yexo> but that would result in 15 action2's for every tile, instead of only X action2's, where X = the number of different layouts needed
11:20:38  <Yexo> max(X) = 15, avg(X) = 3 or 4
11:21:17  <planetmaker> but now I have to enable all possible fences for all possible combinations of free adjacent tiles - and then disable drawing the fence in a certain direction when I want a 3-sided fenced tile
11:21:36  <planetmaker> possibly 3-sided fenced tile
11:21:46  <planetmaker> like a building whose door shall not be fenced
11:21:59  <planetmaker> but which could be anywhere in the layout
11:22:06  <Yexo> so for example fences on all free sides except the SE?
11:22:25  <planetmaker> yeah
11:23:04  <planetmaker> the syntax I'd prefer would be to call FENCES_NE | FENCES_SW | FENCES_NW and that's it
11:23:22  <planetmaker> and that's what I initially meant with enable fences :-)
11:24:21  <Yexo> alternatively #define FENCES 0x3FFF
11:24:45  <planetmaker> hm... what happens when I don't define ENABLED_FENCES with the current diff?
11:25:04  <Yexo> it defaults to 0x0F, which is enable all directions
11:25:40  <Yexo> planetmaker: I understand what you want, but that will result in a huge amount of action2's that are never used
11:26:05  <planetmaker> :-) - also true if the default is FENCES 0x3FFF ?
11:26:18  <Yexo> the building with a door at the SE of the above example. Say that tile always has another industry tile to the SW of it, than you can leave out all constants with SW from FENCES
11:27:10  <Yexo> planetmaker: yes, FENCES doesn't currently have a default value, but if it would be 0x3FFF than you wouldn't need to define either FENCES or ENABLED_FENCES for any tiles to have fences on all possible sides
11:27:17  <Yexo> just with the drawback of a lot of useless action2's
11:27:36  <planetmaker> ok. Then this is the better solution :-)
11:28:45  <Brot6> FISH - Feature #1144 (Closed): Hydrofoil (kometa) (andythenorth) @
11:28:57  <planetmaker> Then my only issue is the naming which is difficult... FENCES -> draw fences if free and ENABLE_FENCES -> draw only these
11:29:11  <Yexo> I fully agree with that ;)
11:29:14  <planetmaker> no idea how to call that properly and concise :-)
11:29:24  * andythenorth does ponder
11:29:25  <Brot6> FISH - Feature #2226 (Closed): Hydrofoil 818 (andythenorth) @
11:32:23  <planetmaker> however the naming - thanks for your nice fences patch, Yexo :-)
11:32:36  <andythenorth> indeed
11:34:07  <Yexo> it'd be a lot easier if nfo allowed computing of values, but it was a nice challenge to write it
11:34:21  <planetmaker> :-)
11:35:43  <Brot6> FISH - Feature #2064 (Closed): Does Log Raft handle Tropic Wood? (andythenorth) @
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12:52:23  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 577:30cc8f6cbf9d: Feature: Fiumelatte Paddle Steamer (medium size) (andythenorth) @
12:52:33  <planetmaker> fish fish fish :-)
12:53:16  <planetmaker> it's a bit sad that ships are so easily abused by newbies
12:53:27  <andythenorth> how?
12:54:08  <planetmaker> ships without buoys kill the game easily in sense of unplayable due to cpu
12:54:27  <planetmaker> look at the savegame e.g. from RAMMAR from the title game competition. It's aweful
12:54:37  <andythenorth> it is a downside
12:54:53  <andythenorth> I've seen ship pathfinder discussed n times :|
12:54:58  <andythenorth> but never a solution
12:55:06  <andythenorth> I use bouys
12:55:23  <andythenorth> didn't the default game have a hard-coded limit on tile distance to next bouy?
12:55:56  <Hirundo> yes
13:09:11  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 578:1d6fc3560ba7: Change: reduce loading speeds for Hydrofoils (andythenorth) @
13:10:10  <Brot6> FISH - Feature #1142 (Closed): Medium Paddle Steamer (andythenorth) @
13:11:47  <Brot6> HEQS "Heavy Equipment" Set - Feature #2322 (New): Adjust tram weights by refit (andythenorth) @
13:36:19  <yorick> andythenorth: some guy made a region-based yapf for ships, but he stopped development
14:05:26  <andythenorth> planetmaker: can't bouys just be enforced more strictly?
14:05:41  <planetmaker> not sure...
14:05:47  <planetmaker> rather a better PF, I think
14:05:51  <andythenorth> 'add a setting' :P
14:05:55  <planetmaker> or something else...
14:06:04  <andythenorth> is performance why ships are often disabled on coop games?
14:06:15  <planetmaker> yes
14:06:29  <planetmaker> or rather the performance with the average guy's usage of ships
14:06:50  <planetmaker> one ship is then as good as 30 trains or so
14:06:57  <planetmaker> cpu-wise
14:07:24  <andythenorth> :(
14:07:48  <planetmaker> this number is just a guestimate, but... that's how it 'feels'
14:09:51  <andythenorth> has it been profiled in any way?
14:11:07  <Ammler> planetmaker: why is next ogfx 0.4.0 and not 0.3.3?
14:12:56  <planetmaker> next is 0.3.3
14:13:38  <Ammler> you should also remove the version, if you reject a ticket
14:14:18  <Ammler> then I create the version and assign the tickets there I work on, ok?
14:15:16  <Ammler> hmm, theoretically you also have a release date already for it, right?
14:15:35  <Ammler> around middle march?
14:17:41  <Ammler> if you like something done, please assign it to the version else I pick what I like :-)
14:18:39  <planetmaker> yes, about that
14:18:57  <planetmaker> and pick what you like :-)
14:19:05  <planetmaker> If you're undecided: update the helicopters :-P
14:19:35  <planetmaker> or fix the maglev alignment ;-)
14:26:29  <Ammler> IMO, the maglev tracks need complete replacement, not just fixing
14:28:57  <planetmaker> :-) That, too. But alignment of trains is unharmed by that
14:30:48  <Ammler> ah, you mean maglev trains alignment
14:32:31  <planetmaker> yep
14:34:34  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 579:5ee39964eeec: Change: set speed for Tow Boat (andythenorth) @
14:34:34  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 580:36072520bb8b: Change: update changelog preparatory to 0.9 release (andythenorth) @
14:40:29  <andythenorth> just a few boring tickets left for 0.9 :|
14:42:41  * Hirundo re-ponders #2304
14:42:41  <Brot6> Hirundo: #2304 is "NewGRF Meta Language - Bug #2304: Prepending a switch block before produce/random_switch fails - #openttdcoop Development Zone"
14:49:03  <Brot6> FISH - Feature #2323 (New): Hydrofoil bounding boxes need tweaks (andythenorth) @
14:57:13  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 581:6e329dcea4dc: Change: correct buy menu position for Hydrofoils and Traders (andythenorth) @
15:07:59  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Bug #2301 (Closed): misalignment with house (planetmaker) @
15:07:59  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Revision 609:476930a9cea1: Fix #2301: misalignment 1px (Ammler) @
15:07:59  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Bug #2301 (Closed): misalignment with house (Ammler) @
15:10:26  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Bug #2164: inconsistent invisibility for industries (Ammler) @
15:11:38  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Bug #2153: tubular brigde (Ammler) @
15:14:20  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Bug #2164: inconsistent invisibility for industries (planetmaker) @
15:15:24  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Bug #2137: weird coast tiles (Ammler) @
15:18:46  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Code Review #2119: New Sprites for Guru X2 Helicopter (Ammler) @
15:21:28  <planetmaker> Ammler: try?
15:25:22  <Ammler> try??
15:26:14  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 582:0095c3742135: Change: adjust Log Raft capacities to fit with permutations of ... (andythenorth) @
15:27:11  <planetmaker> try to convert to full (or no-action) palette and see whether CC remains
15:28:29  <Ammler> planetmaker: I don't need to convert, I see the blue line
15:28:46  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Bug #2137: weird coast tiles (planetmaker) @
15:28:54  <Ammler> maybe it should be opposite, blue heli with white line
15:29:16  <planetmaker> I doubt. If it looks ok - go for it.
15:29:28  <Ammler> I already said, it isn't ok for me
15:29:43  <Ammler> so I need someone who tells me, I am wrong to code it :-)
15:31:59  <planetmaker> well, if the colours are not ok... then skip them for now. I think I convinced DMK meanwhile to use palettes and revise his sprites ;-)
15:32:10  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Bug #2137: weird coast tiles (Ammler) @
15:33:40  <Ammler> planetmaker: you got me wrong, it is nothing about wrong colors
15:34:18  <Ammler> the specific heli just has too less company color for my taste
15:35:00  <planetmaker> hm, ah
15:35:17  <planetmaker> that didn't get clear from your comment there :-P
15:38:24  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Code Review #2119: New Sprites for Guru X2 Helicopter (Ammler) @
15:38:52  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 583:b86b30940987: Change: refactor Log Raft to use templating for action 1 sprites (andythenorth) @
15:44:19  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Bug #2116: wind direction (Ammler) @
15:46:50  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Bug #2112: Houses' foundation sprites (Ammler) @
15:47:49  <Ammler> looks like company color is a generic issue of DanMacKs redraws?
15:48:07  <dihedral> hello
15:48:22  <Ammler> Saletti dih
15:48:27  <dihedral> :-)
15:53:41  <planetmaker> salut dihedral
15:53:45  <planetmaker> Ammler: yes, it sadly is
15:54:07  <dihedral> :-)
16:03:53  <Ammler> hmm, also those helicopters need complete new coding, right?
16:04:03  <Ammler> or is there some template around?
16:06:30  <planetmaker> you could look at av8. But otherwise: new
16:07:11  <planetmaker> planes are hardly template-able
16:12:42  <andythenorth> template everything!
16:12:45  * andythenorth back to work
16:13:47  <Ammler> the rotors are broken in ogfx because of bad code
16:14:00  <Ammler> the sprites look fine
16:26:08  <Ammler> hmm, current opengfx aircraft is broken completely?
16:28:24  <Ammler> I miss the progress bar of grfcodec
16:33:27  <Ammler>
16:33:28  <Webster> Title: SUSE Paste (at
16:36:39  <planetmaker> looks strange
16:36:44  <Ammler> planetmaker: you broke it with r607
16:37:14  <planetmaker> but it looks fine here
16:37:36  <Ammler> the diff of 607 changes the whole file
16:37:39  <planetmaker> and I use r607M
16:38:36  <planetmaker> yes, I changed the whole file, that's true
16:39:07  <planetmaker> so... what do you do different from me?
16:41:19  <planetmaker> dunno, Ammler, are you missing a file? I don't see any which I could have missed...
16:43:26  <Ammler> well, just check the diff or r607
16:43:34  <Ammler> you really don't see, how you broke it?
16:43:39  <Ammler> of*
16:43:52  <Ammler> it is quite obvious here
16:44:49  <Ammler> oh maybe it is earlier
16:46:59  <Ammler> did you use some sed to number the sprites?
16:47:58  <Ammler> maybe I broke it? :-o
16:48:24  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 584:92d8b3e06c89: Change: work in progress refactoring Log Raft offsets etc (andythenorth) @
16:49:26  <Ammler> no, you!
16:50:09  <Ammler> and why do you add the escape header to a partial file, does that work?
16:50:24  <planetmaker> Ammler: there's an associated NML file...
16:50:36  <planetmaker>
16:50:40  <planetmaker> it's a generated pnfo file
16:50:48  <Ammler> how do I know that?
16:51:05  <planetmaker> you quoted the commit. So I assumed you looked at it :-)
16:51:17  <planetmaker> and from the commit message
16:51:26  <planetmaker> Add #2107 #2109: New sprites for the Darwin300 and the Bakewell Luckett aircraft
16:51:26  <Brot6> planetmaker: #2107 is "OpenGFX - Code Review #2107: New Darwin 300 Sprites - #openttdcoop Development Zone"
16:51:28  <planetmaker> Change: Add the a NML file for the aircraft
16:51:59  <Ammler> we should move such pnfo to a subdir
16:52:12  <Ammler> or another extension
16:52:22  <planetmaker> other extension
16:52:24  <planetmaker> easier
16:52:35  <planetmaker> gnfo - like generated nfo
16:58:42  <andythenorth> yup
17:02:10  * andythenorth causes epic log raft breakage
17:02:21  <andythenorth> refactoring is like tooth extraction :P
17:02:26  <andythenorth> necessary due to earlier mistakes
17:02:30  <andythenorth> and better when it's done
17:02:42  <planetmaker> andythenorth: guess what half the coding work on OpenTTD is - if not WAY more ;-)
17:02:53  <andythenorth> I read the vcs log :)
17:03:38  <planetmaker> and it's actually not that bad. But it produces not necessarily quick visible results
17:03:41  <Ammler> make: *** No rule to make target `sprites/nfo/base/base-3741-aircraft.pnfo', needed by `ogfx1_base.cnfo'.  Stop.
17:04:01  <Ammler> how again do I trigger to build the nfo again?
17:08:59  <Brot6> nml: update from r1202 to r1203 done -
17:09:24  <planetmaker> why or how did you remove it?
17:09:33  <planetmaker> make nml2nfo
17:10:07  <Ammler> planetmaker: to force a rebuild
17:11:53  <Ammler> hmm, there is more broken
17:11:56  <andythenorth> bbl
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17:12:03  <planetmaker> what is broken?
17:12:06  <Ammler> shall I commit only the rotor fix?
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17:12:29  <Ammler>
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17:13:30  <planetmaker> that cannot be correct, Ammler
17:13:37  <planetmaker> the width of the rotos is larger than 1px
17:14:04  <Ammler> that is compression
17:14:29  <planetmaker> look at what you do in the bnml file
17:15:12  <Ammler> then nml is broken?
17:15:18  <Ammler> hmm, maybe I need to update that
17:15:20  <Ammler> mom
17:15:34  <Ammler> but you see, what the nfo in the repo is broken?
17:16:34  <planetmaker> yes, but the nml is already broken with an initial height of 1px for the rotos - which is also wrong
17:16:55  <planetmaker> *rotors
17:18:51  <Brot6> firs: update from r1791 to r1798 done -
17:19:03  <Ammler> well, where does that "1" come from?
17:19:11  <Ammler> it isn't in the nml
17:19:30  <Brot6> fish: update from r569 to r584 done (1 errors) -
17:20:41  <Brot6> North American Road Vehicle Set (NARVS) - Bug #2324 (New): DevZone compile failed (compiler) @
17:21:00  <Brot6> opengfx: update from r608 to r609 done -
17:21:01  <planetmaker> it is the nml. 30, 14, -14, -5] instead of 14, 01, 30, -14] *should* do the trick (untested)
17:21:31  <planetmaker> and there's the 1
17:21:34  <Ammler> and where do define the nocrop flag?
17:21:43  <Brot6> ttrs: update from r31 to r33 done (7 errors) -
17:21:44  <Brot6> Following repos didn't need a nightlies update: 2cctrainset (r743), 32bpp-extra (r39), ai-admiralai (r75), ai-aroai (r11), ailib-common (r21), ailib-direction (r17), ailib-list (r32), ailib-string (r29), ailib-tile (r16), airportsplus (r73), basecosts (r22), belarusiantowns (r8), bros (r45), comic-houses (r71), frenchtowns (r6), grfcodec (r821), heqs (r572), indonesiantowns (r41), manindu (r6), metrotrackset (r56), newgrf_makefile
17:21:44  <Brot6> (r255), nml (r1203), nutracks (r176), ogfx-industries (r3), ogfx-landscape (r34), ogfx-rv (r78), ogfx-trains (r210), ogfx-trees (r42), openmsx (r97), opensfx (r97), smts (r19), snowlinemod (r45), spanishtowns (r10), swedishrails (r194), swisstowns (r22), transrapidtrackset (r15), ttdviewer (r26), worldairlinersset (r671)
17:21:45  <planetmaker> does it have to?
17:21:56  <Ammler> does nml decide that self?
17:21:59  <planetmaker> no
17:22:53  <planetmaker> <-- compression is an optional 7th entry
17:23:09  <Brot6> narvs: compile of r6 still failed (#2324) -
17:23:16  <Ammler> hmm, nml uses another order?
17:23:31  <planetmaker> yes
17:23:43  <planetmaker> x,y, width, height, xoffset, yoffset, compression
17:24:16  <planetmaker> you can skip compression
17:24:44  <Ammler> okidoki
17:24:47  <Ammler> that explains
17:25:31  <Brot6> Following repos rebuilds successful without any difference to earlier nightlies builds: airportsplus, belarusiantowns, frenchtowns, indonesiantowns (1 errors), manindu (Diffsize: 1), newgrf_makefile, ogfx-industries, ogfx-landscape, ogfx-rv (1 errors) (Diffsize: 7), ogfx-trains (39 errors), spanishtowns, swedishrails, swisstowns
17:26:09  <planetmaker> obviously my one-time awk conversion failed at that point ;-)
17:34:17  <Ammler> will you fix that before I do something
17:34:28  <Ammler> maybe might be easier
17:35:29  <Ammler> reassigned :-P
17:36:21  <Ammler> is there something else then aircraft?
17:38:46  <planetmaker> maglev trains? ;-)
17:38:51  <planetmaker> that also works w/o nml
17:39:19  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Revision 610:3022e7c6f9a8: Fix (r607): Helicopter sprite sizes were converted wrongly (planetmaker) @
17:40:45  <Ammler> trains is also something you are quite experienced with
17:46:32  <planetmaker> then... enjoy the bubble generator ;-)
17:46:54  <planetmaker> something I've been putting off too long - dreading the difficulty
17:46:55  <Ammler> hmm, is it possible to include a image to FS?
17:47:18  <planetmaker> to what?
17:47:32  <Ammler> FlySpray
17:48:01  <planetmaker> "include an image to FS" means then what? Link directly to?
17:48:17  <planetmaker> yes... Open the task and get the link
17:50:49  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Bug #2052: New Icon in Transparency Options (Ammler) @
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17:52:13  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Bug #2052 (Confirmed): New Icon in Transparency Options (Ammler) @
17:52:15  <planetmaker> oh, damn you. Now I really have to rework that window, Ammler :-P
17:53:14  <Ammler> ok, page 1 done :-)
17:55:26  <Ammler> made a new OpenGFX version:
17:55:35  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Code Review #1875 (Rejected): Renumber the sprites (Ammler) @
17:58:40  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Feature #1302: alternative maglev sprites? (Ammler) @
17:59:10  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Feature #2325 (New): Gautrain Electrostar (Voyager1) @
18:00:29  <planetmaker> <-- Ammler the bridge sprite reduction would work
18:01:46  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Feature #1200: NoGFX for dedicated (Ammler) @
18:05:24  <Ammler> planetmaker: without change in OpenTTD?
18:05:44  <planetmaker> yes
18:06:17  <Ammler> ok, then I miss something
18:07:10  <planetmaker> At least I'm quite confident. Did you try with a smaller sprite there?
18:09:31  <Brot6> North American Road Vehicle Set (NARVS) - Revision 7:a4251628d7a0: fixed typo, configured to buil... (oberhuemer) @
18:09:57  <Ammler> planetmaker: I assumed there isn't a sprite to resize :-)
18:10:12  <planetmaker> he?
18:10:20  <planetmaker> the whole gui adopts to sprite sizes
18:10:24  <Brot6> narvs: compile of r7 still failed (#2324) -
18:10:30  <planetmaker> except a few cases like the fonts
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18:15:03  <Ammler> planetmaker: so you would like to change the bridge sprite everywhere
18:15:09  <Ammler> hmm, might make sense
18:15:24  <planetmaker> actually I'm not sure _I_ want to do that
18:15:28  <planetmaker> actually rather not ;-)
18:16:06  <Brot6> North American Road Vehicle Set (NARVS) - Revision 8:a2c22da667ab: really fixed it... (oberhuemer) @
18:16:09  <Ammler> you were the guy, who would like to have same size for the buttons ;-)
18:16:12  <Brot6> narvs: compile of r8 still failed (#2324) -
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18:17:30  <Ammler> it would make sense, imo
18:21:35  <Brot6> North American Road Vehicle Set (NARVS) - Revision 9:03121cb7aa65: doh... missed one the first time (oberhuemer) @
18:22:44  <Brot6> narvs: compile of r9 still failed (#2324) -
18:26:33  <planetmaker> Ammler: might be that it might either need cutting all bridge sprites - or alternatively introducing a separate one for that task bar
18:27:11  <planetmaker> let's say - my main concern with the suggested square icon is how that looks like: that image by no means looks like a bridge - so it's a very unintuitive button then
18:27:19  <planetmaker> So for square buttons it needs a re-draw
18:27:54  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Bug #2052: New Icon in Transparency Options (Ammler) @
18:28:41  <Brot6> FISH - Bug #2204 (Closed): Log raft is drawn incorrectly under some cases (andythenorth) @
18:29:38  <Brot6> North American Road Vehicle Set (NARVS) - Revision 10:8215b3972e8a: sound file wasn't recognized (oberhuemer) @
18:30:13  <Brot6> narvs: update from r5 to r10 done (9 errors) -
18:34:59  <Brot6> North American Road Vehicle Set (NARVS) - Bug #2324: DevZone compile failed (Ammler) @
18:35:47  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Feature #2300: NS Plan U DE-III (Voyager1) @
18:40:58  <Brot6> North American Road Vehicle Set (NARVS) - Revision 11:94d3e054f5d6: some sprites were not in the ... (oberhuemer) @
18:51:15  <Brot6> North American Road Vehicle Set (NARVS) - Bug #2324 (Closed): DevZone compile failed (compiler) @
18:51:15  <Brot6> North American Road Vehicle Set (NARVS) - Bug #2324 (Closed): DevZone compile failed (oberhuemer) @
18:54:24  <V453000> - Change: [NewGRF] Disable the flipping of train engines/wagons in the depot by default for NewGRFs [FS#4462] (r21966) planetmaker: does this make opengfx+ trains, for example the Lev3 unable to reverse?
18:54:28  <V453000> it breaks the EMU look :(
18:55:14  <V453000> mainly ... is there a way how to turn the "anti-reversing" off locally, or is it the newgrf that needs to be adjusted?
18:55:28  <Yexo> it is the newgrf
18:56:08  <V453000> ah, so the newgrf needs to say "yes, I allow to reverse engines", right? ... does any newgrf do that actually?
18:56:29  <Yexo> in fact is needs to say that for every engine separately
18:56:45  <V453000> the same for me ;)
18:56:52  <Yexo> and since that can only be done since around r21966 I think no engine currently does it
18:56:53  <V453000> not for coders I believe :)
18:57:12  <V453000> so basically with 21966 and higher I am not able to reverse any engine
18:57:39  <V453000> ?
18:58:47  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1799:ffbc83baf705: Change: Update Spanish translation. (Terkhen) @
18:59:08  <Terkhen> andythenorth: ^
18:59:50  <Yexo> V453000: I'm actually not sure. I thought so, but reversing of default and ogfx-trains vehicles works fine
19:00:17  <V453000> well, default, but all other newgrfs are disabled?
19:00:30  <V453000> unless the newgrf has it allowed, which is none atm
19:02:25  <Yexo> looks like the change was incorrectly done, so currently reversing still works for newgrfs
19:03:42  <Brot6> 32bpp-ez-patches: update from r22066 to r22070 done (2 errors) -
19:04:28  <planetmaker> V453000: if you play vanilla you can. IIRC. But I didn't try
19:04:43  <planetmaker> oh, you noticed. yes
19:05:08  <planetmaker> yes, the default engines have the 'allow reversal' bit set
19:05:35  <planetmaker> at least that's what I figured from reading the diff
19:06:52  <Brot6> clientpatches: update from r21488 to r21488 done -
19:08:25  <Brot6> serverpatches: compile of r22070 still failed (#2080) -
19:09:26  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1800:81705ad0b306: Change: (translations) update Dutch t... (andythenorth) @
19:17:28  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 585:bc12ec6af3fa: Change: add basic towboat components from DanMacK (andythenorth) @
19:19:27  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Feature #2326 (New): GWR AEC Railcar (Voyager1) @
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19:42:24  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 586:ec9f7459e281: Change: rename and reorganise towboats psd source (andythenorth) @
19:43:39  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 587:89b73b759185: Change: refactor log rafts (will break current graphics until c... (andythenorth) @
19:44:35  <Ammler> shouldn't it be allowed per default and disableable as option?
19:46:30  <Ammler> I don't see the use of such a feature anyway, if someone doesn't like to reverse it, he doesn't need to use ctrl
20:05:56  <Brot6> North American Road Vehicle Set (NARVS) - Revision 12:eccb7f4c5ac1: sprite misalignment (oberhuemer) @
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21:06:37  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Feature #1200: NoGFX for dedicated (foobar) @
21:11:23  <V453000> Ammler: me neither :|
21:12:53  <V453000> and I also think it should be vice versa :(
21:16:43  <Ammler> yet another bad feature thanks to Eddi :-)
21:18:06  <Ammler> well, I am not sure, when exactly it is disallowed
21:18:55  <Ammler> do you have an example for a engine you can't flip anymore but you should?
21:18:56  <V453000> so far I have tried UKRS and opengfx+ trains
21:19:13  <V453000> both GEC93 and Lev3 when 2headed SHOULD be reversible
21:19:30  <V453000> Lev3 in opengfx+ trains especially, with the EMU wagons feature
21:19:38  <Ammler> you can't anymore?
21:19:38  <V453000> and GEC93 ... that just asks for it :)
21:19:45  <V453000> yea :(
21:19:52  <Ammler> well, that is definitly a bug
21:20:47  <V453000> I think so :( ... the original engines work
21:28:02  <Ammler> V453000: request a reopen and mention what doesn't work anymore
21:28:24  <V453000> you know what is the result when I request something... :|
21:28:40  <Ammler> same with me :-D
21:28:56  <Ammler> we need to kill Edii
21:29:29  <V453000> evil schemings
21:30:51  <planetmaker> Ammler: the reason is simple: Default trains allow it. NewGRFs up to now had no means to disable it, thus they can be broken. So the fix for _all_ cases is only to allow newgrfs to enable it.
21:31:39  <Ammler> planetmaker: sorry, that is wrong, could also be seen oposite, they had no means to allow it, thus they can be broken
21:31:46  <planetmaker> thus no newgrf engine can be flipped anymore
21:32:10  <planetmaker> No newgrf is broken when an engine cannot be reversed
21:32:12  <Ammler> why the hell don't you introduce switches for such questionable things?
21:32:20  <planetmaker> that's what was done ;-)
21:32:24  <planetmaker> for the newgrfs
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21:33:18  <Ammler> planetmaker: sorry, this is so wrong
21:33:36  <Ammler> it is less worse as the pbs bug, but still
21:33:40  <V453000> why could not there be a openttd switch?
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21:34:21  <planetmaker> every newgrf which is maintained will support that in the next version for those engines which need it...
21:34:31  <planetmaker> and reversing the switch - that's utterly stupid
21:34:44  <Ammler> please stop using that as reason
21:34:50  <planetmaker> as it will keep producing broken grfs
21:34:56  <V453000> question: how many newGRFs will be re-done just because this setting
21:35:09  <planetmaker> now it has to be explicitly allowed, such the newgrf author checked for it to work
21:35:20  <planetmaker> V453000: every important one
21:35:27  <Ammler> why the hell do you introduce such questionable features in <10 days?
21:35:39  <planetmaker> it's a bug fix?
21:35:47  <Hirundo> for what bug exactly?
21:35:50  <Ammler> it isn't DAMN
21:35:59  <V453000> bugfix for someone who used some wagons wrongly I assume :|
21:36:16  <planetmaker> the commit message tells. Basically glitches with NewGRFs
21:36:26  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1801:52b89c3c4613: Change: (translations) further update... (andythenorth) @
21:36:37  <Ammler> yeah, just because someone can't use openttd, devs introduce such misfeature
21:36:41  <planetmaker> No, all vehicles which are shorter than 8/8 and not specifically checking the reverse flag fail
21:36:54  <Ammler> planetmaker: but only if you use ctrl
21:37:04  <planetmaker> oh... bloody hell. Now you start to use the mb word 'misfeature', too...
21:37:16  <Ammler> of course, this is for sure
21:37:20  <planetmaker> good night
21:37:22  <Ammler> the pbs is a bug
21:38:45  <Ammler> you really should learn to talk with players before you introduce such things
21:39:20  <andythenorth> bye planetmaker
21:39:45  <V453000> Ammler: or adding the switches ;)
21:39:59  <Rubidium> Ammler: yes, we should talk to players before disabling anything... oh... *if* I were to do that I'd be able to crash your servers at will
21:40:19  <V453000> ?
21:41:29  <Rubidium> luukland et al. say that quite a few security fixes (crash prevention fixes) are misfeatures
21:41:58  <Hirundo> Wasn't it more or less the responsibility of the grf author already? IIRC Pikka's grfs show some sort of arrow instead of a vehicle when reversed in the depot, to indicate 'please reverse me back, you stupid user'
21:42:35  <Rubidium> Hirundo: "more or less", yes... but some claimed it were our (= OpenTTD developer's) responsibility
21:42:49  <Rubidium> as we can't fix the graphics there's only one thing we can do
21:42:52  <Hirundo> some = MB?
21:43:02  <V453000> now the other some claim that your responsibility that nothing works :P
21:43:13  <andythenorth> if I've understood this correctly...
21:43:16  <V453000> nothing but original engines .. :)
21:43:21  <andythenorth> disabling flipping is the right thing to do
21:44:39  <Rubidium> V453000: yes, we "broke" them
21:44:59  <Ammler> andythenorth: I don't thing you understood
21:45:02  <Rubidium> likewise that we will break some more NewGRFs "soon"
21:45:06  <Ammler> it just happens, when you use ctrl
21:46:07  <V453000> Rubidium: lets get back to the root of it ... is it changed because some player reversed some engine or wagon that should not be reversed?
21:46:15  <V453000> it is a wagon from what I see in the FS
21:46:41  <V453000> I think a proper change would be to either kill this person or change is ill brain
21:46:54  <andythenorth> if I've read the commit correctly, flipping is disabled unless prop 27 is set
21:46:58  <andythenorth> which is correct
21:47:12  <andythenorth> what's the problem here?
21:47:14  <Rubidium> V453000: yeah, start killing everyone that reports bugs ;)
21:47:35  <V453000> well, for example I have never had any problems with reversing at all
21:47:43  <Ammler> Rubidium: so if openttd alows someone to do something wrong, it is a bug
21:47:46  <V453000> why someone else does
21:48:11  <Ammler> the biggest bug of openttd is that it allows someone to play it :-P
21:48:36  <V453000> Rubidium: I am sorry but I fear you cannot make openttd idiot proof ;) nothing can be
21:48:37  <andythenorth> allowing flipping by default *is* a misfeature
21:48:53  <andythenorth> forcing newgrf authors to explicitly disable flip is a misfeature
21:49:12  <Ammler> andythenorth: you don't flip by default
21:49:12  <andythenorth> allowing newgrf authors to enable flip is simple
21:49:22  <Ammler> you need ctrl
21:49:23  <andythenorth> have I misread the commit?
21:49:27  <andythenorth> I don't see the drama
21:49:34  <Rubidium> V453000: but keeping a "broken" feature because a TTDPatch developer didn't bother about the repurcussions seems equally, if not more, wrong
21:49:40  <Ammler> yes, the commit is so stupid
21:49:46  <andythenorth> this is the right thing to do - it's about as controversial as reminding me to keep the FIRS error count to 0
21:50:18  <Ammler> it does again change common playstyle
21:50:31  <Ammler> it is :'-(
21:51:15  <andythenorth> what sets will break for you?
21:51:16  <Ammler> why should it be allowd by default trains, but not by newgrfs?
21:51:23  <Ammler> every set will break
21:51:28  <Yexo> it is allowed by newgrfs if they enable it
21:51:30  <andythenorth> wrt to what?
21:51:34  <Rubidium> in any case, disabling allowance of flipping means old NewGRFs are broken
21:51:41  <Yexo> and it is allowed for the default trains because they're known good
21:51:54  <Rubidium> it also means that *new* NewGRFs will be broken as it will be forgotten
21:52:01  <Yexo> a random newgrf with trains cannot be seen as "known good" unless it explicitly sets the "can reverse" flag
21:52:05  <Ammler> but why not allow newgrfs to mark known bad?
21:52:14  <andythenorth> because it's the wrong thing to do
21:52:19  <Rubidium> Ammler: because then future NewGRFs will be broken as well
21:52:29  <Rubidium> as well as old NewGRFs
21:52:30  <andythenorth> I don't always like the 'right thing to do' argument
21:52:30  <Yexo> because there are already a lot of broken newgrfs out there and future newgrfs won't bother to set that flag
21:52:41  <andythenorth> doing the right thing can kill software projects
21:52:48  <andythenorth> if PHP did the right thing, it wouldn't have won
21:52:57  <andythenorth> but this is right
21:53:00  <Ammler> Rubidium: easy, check if the flag is set, if not use "allow" as default, but why break newgrfs backwards?
21:53:23  <andythenorth> because making authors disable flipping is the wrong way round
21:53:34  <andythenorth> flipping is not known to be safe, so should be prevented by default
21:53:45  <Ammler> andythenorth: you didn't need to set it because it was allowed
21:53:53  <andythenorth> which is wrong
21:54:08  <Yexo> it was allowed even though the newgrfs did not support it
21:54:11  <Yexo> which was wrong
21:54:24  <Yexo> you could argue nearly all old train newgrfs were broken
21:54:29  <Ammler> so we can say, this misfeature is also against the newgrf spec?
21:54:32  <Rubidium> Ammler: allowing it by default => it's never going to be used as it "works" just like before
21:55:09  <Rubidium> i.e. why set that bit if you can't be bothered?
21:55:13  <Ammler> Yexo: not the newgrfs are broken, openttd breaks them
21:55:17  <Rubidium> (the bit to disable it)
21:55:32  <Ammler> that is IMO a big difference
21:55:42  <Yexo> Ammler: no, the newgrfs are broken by not providing proper graphics when they are reversed
21:56:01  <Yexo> openttd now disables reversing unless the newgrf indicates it has fixed that
21:56:04  <Ammler> just because some don't you set all as broken?
21:56:48  <andythenorth> Ammler: it's the equivalent in concept (if not risk) to shipping a box with open ports
21:56:53  <Ammler> Yexo: but a simple question, why not allow the player to take that decision?
21:56:54  <Yexo> yes. This way newgrfs _will_ be fixed (either by setting the bit for non-broken vehicles or by adding proper graphics)
21:56:59  <andythenorth> you don't know it's safe
21:57:06  <andythenorth> this way reduces the bug count
21:57:08  <andythenorth> plain and simple
21:57:23  <Ammler> andythenorth: for who?
21:57:27  <andythenorth> players
21:57:29  <V453000> as Ammler says, why cannot there be a switch ... maybe without a gui?
21:57:40  <andythenorth> there can - patch it
21:57:58  <Ammler> andythenorth: you can't patch that
21:58:03  <andythenorth> I could
21:58:05  <andythenorth> I can see the commit
21:58:08  <Ammler> you can, we can't
21:58:11  <andythenorth> I can remove that code
21:58:16  <andythenorth> hmm
21:58:18  <andythenorth> MP
21:58:22  <Ammler> yep :-)
21:58:22  <andythenorth> :|
21:58:45  <andythenorth> has this been announced in newgrf technical forum?
21:58:56  <Ammler> no, it was decided in one week
21:59:11  <Yexo> adding a setting would help only for people reading the forums (most other people won't find it), which are the only people who can actually complain to newgrf authors to get it fixed. Furthermore it'll only result in newgrf developers pointing to that setting as a "fix", instead of actually fixing their newgrfs
22:00:13  <andythenorth> it ought to be announced in technical forum - it's unfair to assume newgrf authors are reading vcs log
22:00:22  <Ammler> yexo, it doesn't need default
22:00:58  <Yexo> that doesn't matter
22:01:42  <Yexo> think about not being able to change newgrfs in-game. While there is a setting for that, most of the players (those who don't read the forums) will not be aware of that and simply not change newgrfs anymore
22:01:54  <Yexo> that means a lot less bug reports due to changed newgrfs
22:01:59  <Ammler> also yexo, the fix from newgrf authors could be to disallow flip
22:02:29  <Yexo> Ammler: yes, but newgrf authors WILL NOT BE BOTHERED TO SET THAT BIT UNLESS THEY HAVE TO
22:03:00  <V453000> Yexo is right, although I am really wondering how many authors will let you to bother them
22:03:17  <Ammler> omg, so you enjoy annoying players so they annoy authors to fix the newgrfs? Can that really not be made nicer?
22:03:21  <V453000> and the feature still sucks :(
22:03:32  <Yexo> yes, the feature sucks for now
22:03:39  <V453000> when will it improve? :)
22:03:50  <Yexo> Ammler: can you think of a better way to get newgrf authors to fix something like this?
22:04:02  <Ammler> Yexo: yes, like I said
22:04:03  <andythenorth> the only problem here is that no-one is telling newgrf authors :|
22:04:09  <Yexo> and don't include anyone in this channel please ;)
22:04:23  <andythenorth> shall I announce it in newgrf technical forum?
22:04:34  <Yexo> sure, go ahead
22:04:47  <Ammler> andythenorth: I would wait, maybe the devs do change their mind?
22:05:22  <andythenorth> I don't think they should
22:05:23  <andythenorth> or will
22:05:27  <Ammler> anyway, authors could set the flag
22:06:44  <Ammler> I just hate the "default" behavior the devs, if someone complains about something, devs simply disallow it to shut down the voice :'-(
22:07:10  <Rubidium> yes, it definitely was done "simply" without any thought
22:07:14  <Ammler> why did that need to fixed so fast?
22:07:26  <andythenorth> it's this one yes?
22:07:43  <Ammler> Rubidium: exactly, just the most easy way for you
22:07:59  <Rubidium> andythenorth: actually r21966
22:08:41  <Ammler> and the time it is decided, you didn't think much about
22:08:49  <Rubidium> Ammler: give me a solution that: a) won't cause breakage in the future without the NewGRF author explicitly saying it's okay, b) won't show broken old NewGRFs
22:11:38  <Rubidium> oh, and for what it's worth: NewGRF authors could already disallow flipping, they just didn't use it
22:11:39  <Ammler> a) if bit is not set, use "allow" as default - b) old newgrfs need fixing with "your" solution anyway
22:11:46  <andythenorth> anything I should edit here?
22:11:47  <Webster> Title: Transport Tycoon Forums View topic - OTTD r21966 corrects flip behaviour for trains (at
22:11:52  <andythenorth> I'm going to sleep in a few minutes
22:12:34  <Ammler> you seriously think, mb or pikka will fix their old newgrfs?
22:12:50  <Rubidium> Ammler: given they already could pre r21966, and they didn't it's not really a viable solution
22:13:15  <Rubidium> Ammler: no, they won't. But isn't acceleration of some trains broken in mb's NewGRF in any case?
22:13:32  <Rubidium> so we already broke that NewGRF when we implemented realistic acceleration
22:13:51  <andythenorth> go to bed
22:13:57  <Ammler> well, you broke all newgrfs now
22:14:00  <andythenorth> this argument isn't going anywhere
22:14:09  <Yexo> and it's not like you won't be able to play with those newgrfs without being able to reverse the engines
22:14:11  <andythenorth> it's silly
22:14:39  <andythenorth> can anyone correct my posting?
22:14:45  <andythenorth> I was winging it
22:14:47  <Ammler> Yexo: it's not like you weren't before you introduced this misfeature
22:15:16  <Ammler> it was a "special" feature not many people used anyway
22:15:28  <Ammler> so it hurts the more, those people can't use it anymore
22:15:45  <Ammler> I can't belive, Eddi prefers it this way
22:15:57  <Yexo> not many people didn't use it -> not many people were hurt by the change -> not a big problem
22:16:09  <Ammler> well, it were for you
22:16:26  <Yexo> the behavior was buggy -> we fixed it
22:16:26  <V453000> <- how would you make these trains without reversing :|
22:16:32  <Yexo> every bug is big enough to fix
22:16:32  <Ammler> you broke all newgrfs just because a special player found a special glitch
22:16:58  <Ammler> this is not a bug, sorry, that is just someone who misused it
22:17:01  <V453000> as Ammler said, plus that he could just have learned and not use it anymore on that wagon :)
22:17:13  <Rubidium> yep, likewise that I break all competitive servers because a special player found a special glitch
22:18:03  <Rubidium> s/break/broke/
22:18:20  <V453000> ?
22:18:44  <Ammler> Rubidium: do you compare security leaks with this very rarly special glitch?
22:19:01  <Rubidium> it's a special glitch as well, isn't it?
22:19:13  <Ammler> a security leak can be seen as bug
22:19:31  <Rubidium> it's actually *more* special, as that special glitch could only happen with modified OpenTTDs
22:19:39  <Ammler> but for sure, FS#4462 isn't a bug
22:19:39  <andythenorth> V453000: decompile the newgrf, set prop 27 bit 3, recompile
22:19:44  <andythenorth> and don't distribute :P
22:19:59  <Ammler> andythenorth: again MP
22:20:09  <andythenorth> use a different newgrf set
22:20:17  <Ammler> andythenorth: but I see now, why you don't care much about such things ;-)
22:20:41  <Rubidium> V453000: use to set bit 3 when needed?
22:20:44  <Ammler> also Eddi can now patch the newgrfs
22:20:56  <Ammler> another win for the SP players
22:21:03  <andythenorth> hmm
22:21:09  <Rubidium> oh yes... you can change properties of another NewGRF's engines
22:21:18  <andythenorth> can a generic template be made for that?
22:21:22  <andythenorth> and a makefile
22:21:41  <andythenorth> basically - "put some ids in a text file, hit make" ?
22:21:47  <Ammler> Rubidium: I thought, that doesn't work
22:21:54  <Ammler> because of VarAction2
22:22:06  <andythenorth> Ammler: it's just setting an action 0 prop
22:22:08  <Yexo> Ammler: varaction2 has nothing to do with this
22:22:30  <andythenorth> bed time for me
22:22:32  <andythenorth> good night
22:22:43  <Rubidium> good night andythenorth
22:23:07  *** andythenorth has left #openttdcoop.devzone
22:25:03  <Rubidium> you *could* probably even make a single NewGRF that fixes most commonly used train sets, as long as only one of them is loaded
22:26:17  <Yexo> Rubidium: no, that's not possible
22:26:20  <V453000> you mean a "special newgrf" that would enable reversing for certain engines?
22:26:41  <Ammler> they "share" same id
22:26:41  <Rubidium> Yexo: why can't you action7/9 jump based on the NewGRF that is going to be loaded?
22:26:43  <Yexo> you can't override properties of train 2 from set A and also override properties of train 2 from set B
22:27:03  <Yexo> you can fix either of them, but not both when they're both used in the same game
22:27:21  <Rubidium> Yexo: that's why I said it works as long as only one is loaded
22:27:31  <Yexo> ah :)
22:27:57  <V453000> so there would be loaded either the newgrf OR the newgrf that "fixes" it?
22:28:08  <Ammler> both
22:28:22  <Ammler> the fix does just override this bit
22:28:37  <Ammler> is that really possible?
22:28:49  <Yexo> you can only override property 27 completely
22:28:54  <Ammler> don't you need to set the whole properity?
22:28:56  <V453000> oh :) so theoretically *someone* could make "fixing" newgfrs to allow all other sets reverse
22:28:59  <Yexo> but dbset for example doesn't use property 27
22:29:08  <Ammler> ok
22:29:20  <Yexo> so in that case just set prop 27 with only the "allow reverse" bit set
22:29:50  <Yexo> before you do that, please test all engines and see if they support reversing correctly and don't set the bit for vehicles that cause glitches
22:30:16  <Ammler> Yexo: as you say, glitch, not bug :-)
22:30:37  <Yexo> does that matter?
22:30:46  <Yexo> a glitch is caused by a bug
22:31:16  <Ammler> well, for me it is something, the player should care of
22:31:20  <Ammler> not the dev
22:32:10  <Ammler> but ok, we are at least aware of a workaround
22:33:37  <Ammler> it might be easy done with some decompiling and seding
22:33:45  <Ammler> and then removing the bad ids
22:37:27  <Ammler> Yexo: in any case, it would have been easier to make fix_dbset.grf which disalbed flip for that short waggon :-P
22:38:02  <Ammler> I would guess, flipping is fine for around 98%
22:39:07  <Ammler> it needed 7 years for Eddi to find that bug
22:39:16  <Ammler> and he is one playing with dbset quite a lot
22:41:24  <Yexo> fix_dbset.grf <- nobody would bother to use it so it'd still be broken
22:42:45  <Ammler> only broken for one dumb user
22:43:14  <Yexo> no, broken for everyone just not noticed that often, or noticed but not reported
22:44:00  <Ammler> well, most do agree, that it is their fault and not the fault of openttd or the newgrf
22:44:20  <Ammler> and so whould be quite ashamed to report that as a bug
22:45:25  <Rubidium> do most really agree? I guess they do, after all people never reported bugs caused due to changing NewGRFs, removing NewGRFs, etc.
22:45:50  <Ammler> :-)
22:45:51  <Rubidium> arguably most don't even know about the flip "feature"
22:46:09  <Rubidium> like only a few percent was using NewGRFs until bananas came around
22:46:29  <Ammler> Rubidium: that is the sadest, you broke a feature for advanaced users only
22:47:01  <Ammler> but well, if override works, it is handleable
22:47:18  <Ammler> then it is like a advanced setting :-P
22:47:23  <Yexo> Ammler: see it in another way: now it is fixed a gui option can be made to reverse engines, so more people become aware of it
22:48:23  <Rubidium> though eventually those features will becomes more widespread, after all reversing makes most sense with NewGRFs enabled and they starting to "penetrate" the OpenTTD realm
22:48:25  <Ammler> Rubidium: the same with pbs bug, usual players never got aware about that
22:48:46  <Rubidium> which one?
22:49:03  <Rubidium> as basically every behaviour of pbs seems to be marked as buggy by some
22:49:12  <Ammler> the one trains "park" in back of a oneway pbs signal
22:50:57  <Rubidium> oh, you mean the one where trains are allowed to enter a platform from the "wrong side" when there's a one way path signal at the entrance ;)
22:51:35  <Ammler> which is not needed, you could there still make 2 singals :-P
22:51:53  <Rubidium> even then, it would *only* "park" there when it was utterly lost
22:52:01  <Rubidium> and even that got changed
22:52:43  <Rubidium> as now it needs to be really utterly lost; basically there being no other "way out"
22:53:28  <Rubidium> ofcourse using 2 way signals that say "dead end" means that that is no "way out", but you can disable that
22:54:24  <Ammler> hmm, I have no clue :-)
22:56:25  <V453000> I do not understand why this does not work though :(
22:56:57  <V453000> hm ... maybe ... lets try something
22:58:02  <V453000> ok, I have no clue why it does not work :( all the paths outside are there
22:58:23  <V453000> no terminus stations, no dead ends
22:58:29  <Ammler> V453000: is that related to current discussion?
22:58:41  <Ammler> or something new?
22:58:54  <V453000> it is the bug with trains bouncing into the 1way PBS
22:59:00  <V453000> I suppose it is related :)
22:59:25  <Ammler> what rev was psg180 played with?
23:00:13  <V453000> archive says 19523 was the final one but I think it was played mostly with 19443
23:03:11  <V453000> from what I remember I think it got updated halfway through the game, which broke it
23:03:46  <Ammler> and nobody complained at that time?
23:04:23  <V453000> I believe Vitus did
23:07:16  <V453000>  r19894 is the last one working
23:09:02  <V453000> hmm
23:09:22  <V453000> two months later, so obviously my memory fails :) the game worked at the time it was archived
23:16:55  <Ammler> well maybe it does work again
23:18:21  <V453000> no :)
23:18:50  <V453000> that is why I do not understand why it doesnt, according to <Rubidium> [23:52:43] as now it needs to be really utterly lost; basically there being no other "way out"
23:19:13  <V453000> the way out is there
23:19:21  <V453000> lost trains, yes, but why no way out :))
23:20:42  <Ammler> well, the pathfinder cache could still be wrong, but I am not really exprienced there
23:21:28  <Ammler> do those trains have order at all?
23:22:12  <V453000> none
23:22:38  <Ammler> maybe that is meant with "utterly lost" :-)
23:23:00  <V453000> :P
23:23:42  <Rubidium> remember what I said about "dead ends"?
23:24:00  <Rubidium> the back of a PBS signal is, like two way signals with some settings, a dead end
23:24:13  <V453000> it would make good sense to me, if they would also "bump" into the 1way block signals
23:25:15  <V453000> yes, but if there is any other way out, the dead end should be really dead :)
23:27:46  <Rubidium> but there isn't, at least with the setting that two way signals are dead ends
23:28:04  <Rubidium> they are equally dead, considering there's a train waiting to pass the signal at the other side
23:28:06  <V453000> yes, but I do not have 2way signals there :)
23:28:13  <Rubidium> you do
23:28:54  <Rubidium> it's filled with: one two way signal + three path signals stretches
23:29:23  <Rubidium> as the two way signal is the safe waiting point, that will be considered for "dead end" determiniation
23:29:41  <V453000> wait, those branches are just the tracks where trains are supposed to go
23:29:45  <V453000> they do go there
23:29:53  <V453000> but they also go to the 1way tracks
23:29:57  <V453000> which is the problem
23:30:12  <Rubidium> yes, but when a train is waiting there, the two way signal is red and thus that track is a "dead end"
23:30:15  <V453000> even though the trains at the 1way signals can not see any firstred 2way eol
23:30:30  <V453000> how could it be red when it isnt the first signal?
23:30:34  <V453000> there are 3 in front of it
23:30:47  <V453000> and it isnt red either :)
23:30:55  <Rubidium> those are facing the wrong way for finding the "safe waiting position", i.e. they are ignored
23:31:13  <V453000> they still are green :)
23:31:18  <Brot6> Berries - Feature Request #1778 (Closed): Password should be alternatively available per http (dih) @
23:32:22  <V453000> every single path there is equal
23:32:30  <Ammler> good night all :-9
23:32:31  <V453000> or at least, every single path is able to reach any exit
23:32:37  <V453000> all are connected with each other
23:32:57  <V453000> and there are no red 2way signals at the time of the choice on 1way PBS signal
23:33:24  <V453000> oh wait, that one :)
23:33:29  <V453000> I see what you mean now
23:33:33  <V453000> lets try something
23:35:26  <V453000> no, even if I make all these signals 1way, it breaks
23:36:15  <Rubidium> then all other exits must've been deemed dead ends as well, or I don't understand YAPF (which is quite likely as well)
23:36:35  <Rubidium> feel free to fix YAPF without breaking the other use cases
23:36:41  <V453000> they cannot be, because every exit is connected with each other
23:36:54  <V453000> so all of them are equal
23:36:59  <V453000> or, the path exists
23:37:23  <Brot6> Berries - Bug #2327 (New): Read passwords file only from own plugins jar (dih) @
23:39:24  <V453000> it definitely does behave better than it used to when the bug was reported, that is for sure
23:39:37  <V453000> but trains still bump into ends of signals when they have other way out
23:39:52  <V453000> and no eol
23:40:15  <Brot6> Grapes - Feature Request #1999 (Closed): Separate Command Handling (dih) @
23:41:05  <Brot6> Grapes - Code Review #1777 (Closed): type case of a possible void return value (dih) @
23:45:09  <Rubidium> well, sadly enough there are two competing "evils" w.r.t. safe waiting points. So I fear not much can be done about it, unless you really grasp YAPF
23:47:40  <V453000> which I obviously dont :p
23:48:29  <V453000> anyway, good night
23:50:24  <Brot6> Grapes - Feature Request #2328 (New): Generic message handling (dih) @

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