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Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 23rd May 2011:
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11:58:01  <planetmaker> http://hg.openttdcoop.org/nml/raw-file/tip/docs/nml-language.html#block-randomswitch <-- Yexo, in that table with the scope of the random data: Is the information about airport tiles correct? Looks wrong to me... should rather be like industries (tiles) afaik?
11:59:03  <Yexo> it looks correct to me
11:59:23  <Yexo> airporttiles are station tiles, so they only have 4 bits per tile
11:59:27  <Yexo> not 8 like industry tiles
11:59:51  <planetmaker> but an airport tile with scope tile... should rather be 'SELF' and scope 'station' should be PARENT. From my understanding
11:59:59  <Yexo> hmm, yes
12:00:02  <planetmaker> I didn't mean the bits :-)
12:00:13  <Yexo> you might be right, Id have to check
12:00:26  <Yexo> but first I have to go, be back in 40 minutes or so
12:00:45  <planetmaker> no rush :-)
12:00:49  <planetmaker> Enjoy whatever you're doing
12:01:03  <planetmaker> I just stumbled over it as I stumbled over other typos ;-)
12:01:09  <planetmaker> They can wait to be fixed
12:01:51  <Yexo> have to get some vaccinations, not going to 'enjoy' that :p
12:02:05  <planetmaker> meh. Well, make the best of it
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12:54:45  <Yexo> ok, I'm back
12:54:50  <Yexo> had to wait half an hour
12:55:08  <Yexo> so random action2's for airport tiles
12:59:57  <Yexo> planetmaker: no, the documentation is correct
13:00:07  <Yexo> wrt random bits airport(tiles) work exactly like stations
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13:07:46  <planetmaker> so... for variables it's like SELF(-->tile) and PARENT(-->airport). And for random bits it's like SELF(-->airport) and TILE(-->tile) ?
13:08:02  <planetmaker> I'd call that inconvenient
13:09:44  <Yexo> I agree
13:10:24  <planetmaker> the parent scope for stations is the town, right?
13:10:27  <planetmaker> or is there none?
13:10:33  <Yexo> it's the town
13:10:54  <planetmaker> and there's no station tiles, but just a station feature
13:11:04  <Yexo> the thing is, airport tiles can access 20 random bits. 4 of them belong to the tile, 16 to the station. All of that without accessing the "nfo parent scope"
13:11:06  <planetmaker> but there are airports and airport tiles...
13:12:09  <planetmaker> hm...
13:12:33  <planetmaker> hm... I guess I have a mental knot there.
13:12:57  <Yexo> the 'TILE' scope is an invention from nml, there is no such thing in nfo
13:13:36  <Yexo> in nfo stations have 20 random bits, divided in 16 station bits and 4 tile bits. NML makes a distinction between those bits by introducing the TILE scope
13:14:00  <Yexo> industry tiles have 8 random bits available, and can access the industry random bits via the parent scope
13:14:34  <Yexo> airport tiles have 20 random bits like stations. However since currently airport tiles have no parent scope, they can't access anything via it
13:19:39  <planetmaker> is there a chance to handle this consistently for the different *tiles
13:19:40  <planetmaker> ?
13:20:00  <planetmaker> as in 'abstract it for the user'?
13:20:18  <planetmaker> maybe make SELF and TILE synonymous?
13:20:27  <planetmaker> hm...
13:21:55  <planetmaker> I don't quite understand why the industry tiles have the industry as parent. And the station tiles their station not :-)
13:22:34  <planetmaker> couldn't one "just" call it that way in NML?
13:22:39  <planetmaker> for stations?
13:23:01  <planetmaker> and if a town needs referencing... that'd be GRANDPARENT ;-)
13:24:04  <planetmaker> while... when an airport tries to access a tile. Then scope "TILE" would make sense to me conceptionally. But afaik that's not possible.
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13:35:30  <Yexo> planetmaker: there is no "station tiles" feature in nfo, only "stations" which double as "complete station" and "single tile", depending on the variable
13:36:59  <Yexo> calling "complete station" PARENT scope for stations and "station tile" SELF scope would be possible
13:37:20  <Yexo> I thought it wouldn't be, because that makes the random bits of the real parent scope unavailable, but towns don't have any random bits
13:37:45  <Yexo> however that solution is also inconsistent, as PARENT would mean town in switch blocks and "complete station" in random switch blocks
13:38:47  <planetmaker> Yes, I'm painfully aware of stations == station tiles.
13:39:26  <planetmaker> But with feature stations one usually codes station tiles somehow... doesn't one?
13:39:57  <planetmaker> hm... ah, this inconsistencies suck :S
13:40:23  <planetmaker> I know, it's not NML's fault
13:41:37  <planetmaker> but... it would make sense for airport tiles, would it?
13:41:59  <planetmaker> let's for now assume that we can't fix (rail) stations
13:48:39  <Yexo> yes, it does make sense for nml
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13:53:17  <planetmaker> I'm also hoping for frosch's adv. tile layouts. I'm somewhat keen on getting the airports re-implemented as NewGRF :_)
13:54:57  <planetmaker> Hm... maybe I should skip fences for now... then I could continue ;-)
13:56:32  <Yexo> you'll run in the same problem soon enough again
13:56:45  <planetmaker> not sure. It's a factor of 9
13:56:56  <planetmaker> And I've nearly all tiles already done
13:57:19  <Yexo> all airports?
13:57:27  <planetmaker> They're very repetitive
13:57:31  <Yexo> I thought you only did the city airport
13:57:34  <planetmaker> Not many more tiles than the city airport
13:57:38  <planetmaker> yes.
13:57:39  <Yexo> but in that case it might work
13:57:50  <Yexo> please keep the full diff available for testing though ;)
13:57:52  <planetmaker> heliports is missing and a few other tiles
13:57:54  <planetmaker> sure :-)
13:58:21  <planetmaker> I'll just comment out the fence stuff. It was too lengthy to think about it to throw it away. And I want it back anyway ;-)
13:59:57  <planetmaker> I guess that > 3/4 of the tiles are already done.
14:00:16  <planetmaker> Radar, heli, and maybe one or two other ground tiles, not sure
14:00:49  <planetmaker> hm... and depot_xy with xy the other orientations
14:01:04  <planetmaker> that can't be auto-decided ;-)
14:29:20  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 1353:2f29b5dc8b61: Fix: A few typos in the documentation (planetmaker) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository/revisions/2f29b5dc8b61
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16:30:32  <Brot6> Nutracks - Revision 194:673ae6f89cbe: The beginning of level crossing graphics for all rail types... (oberhuemer) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nutracks/repository/revisions/673ae6f89cbe
16:30:47  <Brot6> nutracks: update from r191 to r194 done (28 errors) - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/nutracks/push/r194
16:31:40  <Brot6> Nutracks - Bug #2650 (New): DevZone compile failed (compiler) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2650
16:35:21  <Brot6> Nutracks - Revision 195:6b9e60a88852: changed very low speed tracks back to the original; started... (oberhuemer) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nutracks/repository/revisions/6b9e60a88852
16:35:29  <Brot6> nutracks: update from r194 to r195 done (28 errors) - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/nutracks/push/r195
16:35:37  <Brot6> nutracks: compile of r195 still failed (#2650) - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/nutracks/releases/ERROR/r195
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17:09:52  <Brot6> nml: update from r1349 to r1353 done - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/nml/nightlies/r1353
17:18:30  <Brot6> fish: update from r644 to r648 done - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/fish/nightlies/r648
17:19:06  <Brot6> nutracks: update from r193 to r195 done (28 errors) - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/nutracks/nightlies/r195
17:19:26  <Brot6> ogfx-industries: update from r105 to r107 done - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/ogfx-industries/nightlies/r107
17:19:33  <Brot6> Following repos didn't need a nightlies update: 2cctrainset (r750), 32bpp-extra (r40), ai-admiralai (r75), ai-aroai (r39), ailib-common (r21), ailib-direction (r17), ailib-list (r32), ailib-string (r29), ailib-tile (r16), airportsplus (r75), basecosts (r25), belarusiantowns (r8), bros (r52), chips (r141), comic-houses (r71), firs (r1994), frenchtowns (r6), german-townnames (r34), grfcodec (r829), grfpack (r279), heqs (r605),
17:19:33  <Brot6> indonesiantowns (r41), manindu (r7), metrotrackset (r56), narvs (r37), newgrf_makefile (r289), nml (r1353), nutracks.clone (r197), ogfx-landscape (r68), ogfx-rv (r107), ogfx-rv.clone (r103), ogfx-trains (r241), ogfx-trees (r44), opengfx (r669), openmsx (r97), opensfx (r97), smts (r19), snowlinemod (r49), spanishtowns (r10), sub-landscape (ERROR r66), sub-opengfx (ERROR r666), swedishrails (r202), swisstowns (r22), transrapidtrackset
17:19:35  <Brot6> (r15), ttdviewer (r34), ttrs (r36), worldairlinersset (r671)
17:25:52  <Brot6> sub-landscape: compile of r66 still failed (#2616) - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/sub-landscape/nightlies/ERROR/r66
17:26:16  <Brot6> Nutracks - Revision 196:93a5cd2f0670: More graphical adjustments (oberhuemer) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nutracks/repository/revisions/93a5cd2f0670
17:26:48  <Brot6> sub-opengfx: compile of r666 still failed (#2586) - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/sub-opengfx/nightlies/ERROR/r666
17:27:25  <Brot6> nutracks: update from r195 to r196 done (28 errors) - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/nutracks/push/r196
17:27:40  <Brot6> nutracks: compile of r196 still failed (#2650) - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/nutracks/releases/ERROR/r196
17:27:49  <Brot6> Following repos rebuilds successful without any difference to earlier nightlies builds: airportsplus (Diffsize: 12), belarusiantowns (Diffsize: 30), frenchtowns, german-townnames, indonesiantowns (1 errors) (Diffsize: 1), manindu (Diffsize: 1), narvs, newgrf_makefile, ogfx-landscape (Diffsize: 1096), ogfx-rv, ogfx-rv.clone (Diffsize: 1), ogfx-trains (Diffsize: 813), spanishtowns (Diffsize: 1), swedishrails (Diffsize: 259), swisstowns
17:27:49  <Brot6> (Diffsize: 156)
17:29:10  <Rubidium> lots of white pixels in nutracks ;)
17:29:59  <Rubidium> ~50.000 white pixels
17:30:49  <planetmaker> :D where? Nutracks?
17:31:07  <Rubidium> yeah
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18:16:37  <Brot6> OpenGFX Trees - Revision 45:a02e19ebc0d2: Feature #2643: Thanks! That really helps and those addi... (Froix) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ogfx-trees/repository/revisions/a02e19ebc0d2
18:16:37  <Brot6> OpenGFX Trees - Revision 46:2b597116061d: Add: Added more arctic tree stages. (Froix) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ogfx-trees/repository/revisions/2b597116061d
18:16:37  <Brot6> OpenGFX Trees - Revision 47:c7d8a19fe397: Add: Edited some few temp and tropical trees. (Froix) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ogfx-trees/repository/revisions/c7d8a19fe397
18:20:36  <Brot6> OpenGFX Trees - Revision 48:2b429698f18c: Feature 2634: Renamed project to OpenGFX Trees. Not sur... (Froix) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ogfx-trees/repository/revisions/2b429698f18c
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18:41:02  <Ammler> I would rather like to fix that release build bug :-(
19:27:40  <andythenorth> is there a known switch error with current nml trunk?
19:29:28  <Terkhen> what kind of error?
19:30:35  <andythenorth> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/215/
19:40:38  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Patch #2651 (New): buildout for nml (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2651
19:40:44  <andythenorth> planetmaker Terkhen: Yexo ^
19:40:47  <andythenorth> would you see if it works?
19:42:52  <andythenorth> Ammler also ^
19:49:50  <Terkhen> andythenorth: I can't test now, I don't have nml in this computer
19:50:03  <Terkhen> s/nml/linux/ :)
19:50:35  <andythenorth> do you have python?
19:51:15  <Terkhen> nope
19:51:33  <andythenorth> :(
19:51:49  <andythenorth> if you had python it would be a very good test case :)
19:52:11  <Terkhen> I tried to set nml up on windows once... it was a big headache :P
19:52:25  <andythenorth> was it PIL related?
19:52:32  <Terkhen> they had a nice stand alone for nml on windows now IIRC
19:54:01  <Terkhen> andythenorth: IIRC I managed to set it up somehow, but Make is quite slow on windows anyways
19:54:14  <Terkhen> so I ended up moving my newgrf development to linux
19:54:27  <Brot6> nutracks.clone: update from r197 to r198 done - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/nutracks.clone/push/r198
19:58:45  <Ammler> finally :-)
19:59:03  <Ammler> andythenorth: it is not needed for linux :-)
19:59:16  <Ammler> I do just "zypper in nml"
19:59:43  <Ammler> I test if it doesn't at least break it
19:59:51  <andythenorth> hmm
20:00:10  <andythenorth> so nml doesn't work practically for windows, and buildout isn't needed for linux
20:00:19  <andythenorth> leaving only OS X requiring this support
20:00:41  <andythenorth> :P
20:01:55  <Terkhen> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/nml/nightlies/r1353/nml-r1353-windows-win32.zip <--- there is a special version for windows, I don't know if it includes the dependencies or not
20:02:01  <andythenorth> Ammler: so you've packaged nml for zypper, and it fetches the deps?
20:04:26  <Brot6> Project nutracks.clone (push) removed from finger
20:04:46  <Brot6> Project nutracks.clone removed from finger
20:05:09  <Ammler> andythenorth: that is how software works on linux
20:05:25  <Ammler> nobody does install something self
20:05:41  <andythenorth> how do you package it for the deps?
20:05:45  <Ammler> that is just a windows max manner :-)
20:05:59  <Ammler> s/max/mac/
20:06:16  <andythenorth> where's the package file in the repo?
20:06:24  <frosch123> andythenorth: linux is basically a huge vendor lock-in. your only take a small package and it pulls all dependencies without asking :p
20:06:44  <andythenorth> Ammler: or do you have to maintain a zypper entry for nml?
20:08:22  <Ammler> andythenorth: yes
20:09:19  <andythenorth> what happens when the version of NML needed by nml conflicts with a version you need to do your day job?
20:09:38  <andythenorth> NML / PIL sorry :)
20:10:21  <andythenorth> also - does it resolve the issue when your system python is not the version required for some_package?
20:11:39  <Ammler> no issue to install multiple pythons
20:12:26  <Ammler> well, you use the wrong version as default
20:13:21  <andythenorth> :P
20:13:27  <andythenorth> says who?
20:15:22  <Ammler> sorry, it would be quite easier to use a acient version for your special software
20:15:33  <Ammler> as the whole rest would work with current python
20:15:54  <Terkhen> I'm using an "ancient" version for nml too :)
20:18:31  <Ammler> hehe
20:18:48  <planetmaker> andythenorth: I think buildout might work for windows
20:18:50  <planetmaker> hello also
20:18:54  <andythenorth> hello
20:18:58  <andythenorth> planetmaker: it's supposed to
20:19:05  <andythenorth> that's one of the selling points :)
20:19:07  <Ammler> hmm, it runs setup.py?
20:19:17  <andythenorth> although if there's a binary for windows, it might not be relevant
20:19:32  <andythenorth> the case of buildout for nml is not the most relevant
20:19:39  <andythenorth> the most relevant would be including it with newgrf projects
20:19:44  <andythenorth> then it would fetch nml for you
20:19:47  <andythenorth> and the deps
20:19:54  <andythenorth> and build the entire environment
20:20:05  <andythenorth> it can build and fetch non-python stuff as well
20:20:17  <andythenorth> this means for typical users, instructions would be:
20:20:21  <andythenorth> 1. install python
20:20:27  <andythenorth> 2. checkout newgrf
20:20:35  <andythenorth> 3. run bootstrap.py
20:20:41  <andythenorth> 4. run ./bin/buildout
20:20:45  <andythenorth> done
20:21:39  <Ammler> install python is already too much for windows user
20:21:47  <andythenorth> assuming we don't version pin, if nml needs an update, then the user just re-runs ./bin/buildout
20:23:05  <andythenorth> the downside is that buildout is a pita to maintain
20:23:11  <andythenorth> it's simple, but badly documented
20:25:59  <Terkhen> python comes with a simple installer, if it also adds python to the path it would not be too much to ask
20:26:23  <Terkhen> besides, any windows user wishing to build newgrfs would be expected to deal with stuff like that
20:28:53  <Ammler> nmlc.exe just works :-)
20:29:05  <Ammler> (afaik)
20:29:56  <Terkhen> the user needs to set it into his path?
20:31:33  <Ammler> he, indeed
20:31:41  <Ammler> well, like grfcodec.exe
20:34:06  <Ammler> anyway, all fine with buildout
20:35:41  <andythenorth> Ammler: what happens if you run make NMLC="../bin/nmlc" in './regression'
20:35:42  <andythenorth> ?
20:35:48  <andythenorth> I get errors :(
20:40:13  <Ammler> I thought, that happens only, if you use wrong version?
20:40:38  <andythenorth> this is a specific regression error
20:40:45  <andythenorth> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/215/
20:41:27  <Ammler> andythenorth: that is fine
20:41:38  <Ammler> test worked, but nml is broken
20:42:43  <andythenorth> I though that might happen
20:42:49  <andythenorth> :(
20:42:59  <Ammler> yes
20:43:03  <Ammler> as said fine
20:43:19  <andythenorth> so the test worked as expected
20:43:23  <andythenorth> but trunk is broken?
20:43:32  <Ammler> not as expected but it worked
20:43:33  <andythenorth> i.e. the test did its job
20:43:40  <Ammler> yes
20:45:50  * andythenorth wonders how to have the tests run automatically
20:47:23  <Ammler> add it to a commit hook
20:51:30  <andythenorth> I mean on the buildout ;)
20:53:56  <Terkhen> if you can run bash commands from it you could add "make -f ./regression/Makefile"
20:55:16  <Ammler> that wouldn't work
20:55:27  <Ammler> cd regression && make
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21:08:37  <andythenorth> http://pypi.python.org/pypi/plone.recipe.command/
21:08:38  <Webster> Title: Python Package Index : plone.recipe.command 1.1 (at pypi.python.org)
21:11:26  <andythenorth> Ammler: could you try this for me? http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/217/
21:11:33  <andythenorth> replace the contents of buildout.cfg
21:19:38  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Patch #2651: buildout for nml (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2651#change-6752
21:20:46  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Patch #2651: buildout for nml (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2651#change-6752
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21:51:31  <planetmaker> hm, grf override is not yet implemented in NML, is it?
21:53:40  <planetmaker> hm, is
21:55:26  <Yexo> I thought I did that, but can't remember the syntax
22:09:13  <planetmaker> I found it in the source
22:09:33  <planetmaker> engine_override(target_to_override, overriding_grf_ID)
22:09:40  <planetmaker> with iirc the 2nd optional.
22:09:51  <planetmaker> I'll try to remember tomorrow.
22:09:56  <planetmaker> Now good night :-)

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