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Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 12th June 2011:
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04:57:02  *** andythenorth has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
05:41:25  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #2727 (New): Desert variation for food market - Cacti? (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2727
05:43:02  <planetmaker> hm, strange. In our last yacd game i didn't have the impression of lime kilns being over-abundant
05:43:21  <Terkhen> or at least not more abundant than other secondaries
05:43:32  <planetmaker> ^
05:49:32  <andythenorth> depends when you start to some extent
05:49:56  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 2022:e146a09d1dae: Feature: snow graphics for Food Marke... (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/e146a09d1dae
05:49:56  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 2023:0936f5d0ecb7: Cleanup: unneeded pcx files (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/0936f5d0ecb7
05:49:56  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1803 (Closed): Food Market needs snow graphics (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/1803#change-6852
05:50:17  <andythenorth> I set them high originally, because in mediaeval times many towns had small lime kilns
05:50:27  <andythenorth> but then I didn't bother drawing the small version :P
05:54:57  <Terkhen> :D
05:55:28  *** ODM has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
05:55:29  <Terkhen> maybe we do not notice the issue because you usually start at an earlier date than us?
06:02:51  <andythenorth> Terkhen: imo it's worse with yacd - too much coal gets sent to lime kilns
06:03:01  <andythenorth> which unbalances ENSP + goods chains
06:04:20  <Terkhen> IMO yacd should give NewGRF cargos and industries new properties to adjust their behavior
06:06:30  * andythenorth agrees
06:06:53  <andythenorth> but should be quite blunt
06:07:01  <andythenorth> if it's too fine-grained, that's too much testing to do :P
06:07:02  <Terkhen> not now though, but once that yacd is completed
06:07:46  <Terkhen> the cargo based parameters that it has now might get in the way, though
06:09:46  <andythenorth> #2662
06:09:46  <Brot6> andythenorth: #2662 is http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/show/2662 "FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #2662: German translation - #openttdcoop Development Zone"
06:09:53  <andythenorth> #2455
06:09:53  <Brot6> andythenorth: #2455 is http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/show/2455 "FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #2455: Updated Polish translation. - #openttdcoop Development Zone"
06:10:03  <andythenorth> ^ would anyone be able to do those tickets?
06:10:07  <andythenorth> it would help me greatly
06:13:08  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #2728 (New): Snow graphics for Hotel (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2728
06:20:09  <Terkhen> andythenorth: I'll add #2455
06:20:09  <Brot6> Terkhen: andythenorth: #2455 is http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/show/2455 "FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #2455: Updated Polish translation. - #openttdcoop Development Zone"
06:20:48  <Terkhen> also, what did you need me to check regarding opening/closure?
06:21:56  <andythenorth> Terkhen: there is a parameter wrt opening
06:22:18  <andythenorth> if True, it should prevent (a) player funding industry (b) random industry construction during gameplay
06:22:53  <Terkhen> ok
06:36:23  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 2024:678cf6ccee34: Change: some work to support snow for... (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/678cf6ccee34
06:36:23  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 2025:777289714f9e: Cleanup: refactor HOTELRESTAURANT def... (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/777289714f9e
06:38:14  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 2026:9e593ad15eb9: Change: (translations) remove 'Restau... (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/9e593ad15eb9
06:39:17  <andythenorth> Terkhen: planetmaker I wish to do #2289, but I'm not sure what breaks the translation framework...
06:39:17  <Brot6> andythenorth: Terkhen: #2289 is http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/show/2289 "FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #2289: Cargo string IDs could be refactored - #openttdcoop Development Zone"
06:39:24  <Brot6> OpenGFX Trees - Revision 50:4192f726d725: Add: tropical tree (Froix) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ogfx-trees/repository/revisions/4192f726d725
06:40:18  <Terkhen> andythenorth: and stuff like TEXT_INFO_AVAILABILITY_1610 could use a single string with parameters instead
06:40:31  <Terkhen> IMO it's better to wait until the nml conversion for that one
06:40:35  <planetmaker> andythenorth: if FIRS is converted to NML, changes to the translation framework certainly is the thing which least work should be put in
06:40:56  <andythenorth> I might remove redundant string defines though - it will simplify the NML conversion?
06:41:15  <planetmaker> no. Only the strings in the grf will be used anyway.
06:41:28  <andythenorth> interestink
06:41:32  <andythenorth> maybe I bounce that ticket then
06:41:34  <planetmaker> the extra "clutter" of unused stuff won't be converted
06:42:04  <andythenorth> 15 tickets left for 0.7
06:42:13  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #2289: String IDs could be refactored (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2289#change-6856
06:42:27  <andythenorth> it's raining
06:42:34  <andythenorth> maybe a good day to improve this?  http://wiki.openttd.org/NewGRF_Recommended_Standards
06:42:48  <planetmaker> not raining here, luckily
06:43:21  <planetmaker> Later there'll be "classics in the park" - the state symphony orchestra playing for free in the town's park :-)
06:43:25  <Terkhen> andythenorth: #2455 is not an update, it actually removes a few strings
06:43:25  <Brot6> Terkhen: andythenorth: #2455 is http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/show/2455 "FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #2455: Updated Polish translation. - #openttdcoop Development Zone"
06:44:06  <planetmaker> you may have noticed andythenorth that I updated the page slightly ;-)
06:56:35  <andythenorth> good headings
06:56:48  <Terkhen> what page?
06:56:59  <Terkhen> oh, I missed that line :P
06:59:51  <planetmaker> they need to catch. And if people hear the word license, 80% instantaneously fall asleep
07:01:19  <Terkhen> yes :P
07:01:25  <Terkhen> IMO you should go for something shorter
07:01:41  <planetmaker> than?
07:03:48  <andythenorth> I think some of the sentences can be shorter
07:03:58  <andythenorth> but moreover - maybe we change the structure
07:04:05  <andythenorth> I think there needs to be a 'getting started'
07:04:11  <andythenorth> and 'as you progress with your grf'
07:04:29  <Terkhen> planetmaker: a shorter, right to the point document
07:04:47  <Terkhen> and an extended version later in the way of a FAQ if anyone wants to read more
07:05:06  * andythenorth wonders
07:05:08  <andythenorth> - principles
07:05:11  <andythenorth> - practicalities
07:05:13  <andythenorth> - detail
07:05:24  <andythenorth> principles is community standards
07:05:28  <planetmaker> Terkhen: to the point could be just the headings ;-)
07:05:37  <andythenorth> practicalities is things like tools, version control, lighting
07:05:54  <andythenorth> - detail is more on things like compatibility checks etc
07:06:16  * andythenorth had better read the ttdp wiki tutorials section again
07:06:26  <andythenorth> or we'll have too many locations
07:06:33  <andythenorth> a canonical location would be good
07:06:38  <andythenorth> newgrf.org
07:08:02  <andythenorth> this is somewhat outdated....
07:08:02  <andythenorth> http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Preliminaries
07:08:13  <andythenorth> if that was the first thing I saw about newgrf it might not be helpful
07:08:46  <planetmaker> yes. Those general help pages there are actually very unhelpful except graphics and coordinates
07:08:53  <Terkhen> IMO a central place for newgrfs should not contain those guidelines (or at least not as a official thing); otherwise people that don't agree with them will not support newgrf.org either
07:09:28  <planetmaker> I think it should contain those guidelines. Not as mandatory, but as that: a guideline
07:09:55  <andythenorth> me too
07:10:18  <andythenorth> although I may regret that :P
07:11:05  <Terkhen> as much as I agree with the guidelines, a split up of the newgrf community would be worse than not following the guidelines
07:11:17  <planetmaker> Yes, agreed.
07:11:37  <planetmaker> That's why it has to be clear that it's not mandatory.
07:11:49  <Terkhen> I'd say: pursue newgrf.org first and once it is established worry about the guidelines :P
07:11:52  <planetmaker> But new authors will want and need guidelines
07:12:04  <andythenorth> hmm
07:12:07  <planetmaker> I'd like to have know much of what I learnt the hard way about compatibility
07:12:09  <Terkhen> no, new authors want tutorials
07:12:12  <andythenorth> these are primarily ottd guidelines
07:12:16  <andythenorth> not general newgrf
07:12:26  <planetmaker> yes, they want that, of course
07:12:46  <planetmaker> hm, Ammler can we have another VM for starting with newgrf.org?
07:13:14  <planetmaker> I guess we'd need a mediawiki there
07:14:01  <andythenorth> the ttdpatch newgrf community have their own way of doing things
07:14:14  <planetmaker> you mean those two people? :-P
07:14:18  <planetmaker> or three
07:14:27  <planetmaker> that are left of it
07:14:47  <planetmaker> I'd not count pikka and george as part of it.
07:15:03  * andythenorth reserves comment on that :P
07:15:09  <planetmaker> :-D
07:15:16  <andythenorth> however much of current documentation on ttdp wiki is very ttdp specific
07:15:20  <andythenorth> as you might expect :P
07:15:23  <andythenorth> e.g. http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=VariableVehicleID
07:15:25  <planetmaker> "TTDPatch is basically unsupported and I can't be bothered to test that"
07:15:31  <planetmaker> guess who said that? :-P
07:15:34  <planetmaker> (hint: not me)
07:16:02  <planetmaker> yes, it is. We might "fix" that during a transition
07:16:27  <andythenorth> and such as this: http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=RoadVehicleIDRecommendation
07:16:59  <planetmaker> well, it should be kept, but clearly marked as "TTDPatch only"
07:18:02  <Terkhen> those pages are IMO not part of the specs
07:18:19  <Terkhen> they should go to a TTDPatch only annex to them
07:18:45  <Terkhen> I'd say: copy and (if needed) rewrite and clarify the specs
07:18:50  <Terkhen> and copy pages like that as they are
07:19:13  <Terkhen> there is also TTDPatch stuff not related to NewGRFs in that wiki, those pages should be ignored
07:20:54  <planetmaker> agreed
07:22:14  <Terkhen> for the recommended standards it might not matter that much, but for newgrf.org you really should try to get everyone on board
07:22:36  <andythenorth> meh
07:22:56  <andythenorth> mediawiki :(
07:23:00  <andythenorth> oh well
07:23:21  <planetmaker> I've no hard preference. But it's what both OpenTTD and #openttdcoop use for their wikis
07:23:24  * andythenorth grumbles - why would someone invent an 'easy' markup language that is harder to use than actual html
07:23:27  <planetmaker> would keep things about the same
07:23:30  <andythenorth> but nvm
07:23:41  <planetmaker> and the current tikiwiki has its limitations
07:23:54  <Terkhen> to keep things about the same you should use an antediluvian tikiwiki :P
07:23:56  * andythenorth has some thoughts about getting started - and will write them down
07:24:09  <andythenorth> "First we need to write a better wiki software"
07:24:14  <andythenorth> ^ and this way our project is never done
07:24:27  <Terkhen> it already exists
07:24:32  <Terkhen> use plain text files
07:24:46  <andythenorth> is NML yet the recommended authoring language?
07:24:52  <andythenorth> we should make a recommendation
07:25:09  <Terkhen> NML does not have complete support for all features
07:25:11  <planetmaker> it speaks for itself. And no, NML cannot be recommended in all cases
07:25:17  <planetmaker> for the reason Terkhen stated
07:25:28  <andythenorth> ok
07:25:29  <planetmaker> no houses and stations
07:25:43  <andythenorth> is it likely to be forthcoming?
07:25:51  <planetmaker> well, sure
07:26:17  <andythenorth> if I had first done a tutorial on 'getting your first vehicle into the game', I would have saved a lot of wasted time
07:26:18  <planetmaker> iirc chips was made so that yexo understands the intricacies of stations in detail :-)
07:26:29  <planetmaker> (or at least one part of the motivation)
07:26:59  <andythenorth> designing a set entirely on paper, or by drawing graphics, with no understanding of spec, is an anti-pattern
07:27:10  <planetmaker> hm?
07:27:20  <andythenorth> that was a horrible sentence sorry :P
07:27:33  <Terkhen> andythenorth: IMO a recommendation is not needed
07:27:40  <andythenorth> no but a tutorial might be
07:27:47  <andythenorth> and the tutorial has to make a choice
07:27:50  <Terkhen> something on the lines of "nfo is ... and nml is ..."
07:27:53  <Terkhen> should be enough
07:28:05  <Terkhen> then, whoever is interested in nfo can add nfo tutorials
07:28:11  <Terkhen> and people interested in nml can do the same
07:28:21  <andythenorth> hmm
07:28:22  <andythenorth> ok
07:28:31  <planetmaker> yes, I think it needs no recommendation
07:28:41  <Terkhen> new authors can check both tutorials and see what they prefer by thenselves :P
07:28:44  <Terkhen> themselves*
07:28:49  <planetmaker> same as C doesn't need recommendation over assembler ;-)
07:29:16  <andythenorth> sounds similar to Pyramid, which has two different ways to approach app design.  But neither is better.
07:29:27  <andythenorth> so there are two 'getting started' tutorials
07:30:35  <andythenorth> what are the options for authoring a grf?
07:30:46  <andythenorth> nml
07:30:48  <andythenorth> nfo
07:30:51  <andythenorth> grfmaker
07:30:58  <Terkhen> yes
07:31:01  <andythenorth> are there are any others that are really viable and supported?
07:31:04  <andythenorth> m4nfo
07:31:27  <andythenorth> what s grfwizard?
07:31:46  <Terkhen> m4nfo is being developed or it is just a plan?
07:32:02  <andythenorth> I think it's released and brilliant
07:32:02  <Terkhen> iirc grfwizard was just a grfcodec wrapper for windows users, but I'm not sure
07:32:07  <andythenorth> in an alternative universe :P
07:32:36  <planetmaker> Terkhen: I think mb develops in it
07:33:02  <planetmaker> and in the German forums (started) a tutorial about his (of course unreleased) way of writing the (of course unreleased) DBSet
07:33:14  <Terkhen> if it has not been released then there is no point to mention it on newgrf.org
07:33:21  <planetmaker> ^
07:33:50  <Terkhen> as soon as it is released it can be added
07:34:11  <planetmaker> quite so
07:34:20  <planetmaker> I doubt it will ever happen.
07:34:31  <andythenorth> so nfo, nml, grfmaker
07:34:36  <Rubidium> planetmaker: it will
07:34:42  <planetmaker> I don't expect any return to the community by him...
07:34:42  <Rubidium> when dbset xl 0.9 is released
07:34:47  <Terkhen> "as soon as it is released" can mean "after the heat death of the universe"
07:34:50  <Rubidium> and it's sources are released
07:34:57  <Rubidium> s/'//
07:35:09  <planetmaker> dbset's sources? hahaha
07:36:34  <andythenorth> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=4381
07:36:35  <Webster> Title: Transport Tycoon Forums View topic - Useful Graphic Tools & Sites & Install Guides (at www.tt-forums.net)
07:37:22  <andythenorth> I find Pikka's tutorials the most useful: http://users.tt-forums.net/pikka/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page#NFO_Editing
07:37:48  <Terkhen> andythenorth: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/267/ <-- logs for 100 years, with "Prevent industries opening during gameplay" on and both closure options off
07:38:01  <Terkhen> looks good :P
07:38:09  <andythenorth> indeed :)
07:38:22  <andythenorth> was there any AI running which might build industry?
07:38:36  <Terkhen> no, but I couldn't build them
07:38:37  * andythenorth wishes there was a way to automatically test 
07:38:49  <Terkhen> if an AI can build them and a player not then it is a bug in OpenTTD
07:39:02  <Terkhen> oh, that
07:39:04  <andythenorth> it would have saved you trying :)
07:39:13  <Terkhen> yes, it would be feasible to do something like that
07:39:28  <andythenorth> there is no possibility of unit tests in a newgrf afaik
07:39:28  <Terkhen> right now OpenTTD has a regression AI used to test if anything has changed
07:39:53  <andythenorth> it would be useful to be able to unit test, e.g. production code
07:40:00  <andythenorth> and location code
07:40:09  * andythenorth dislikes unit tests a lot, but they can be useful
07:40:11  <Terkhen> what does "unit test" means?
07:40:39  <andythenorth> lmgtfy
07:40:44  <andythenorth> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_testing
07:40:45  <Webster> Title: Unit testing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at en.wikipedia.org)
07:41:02  <andythenorth> typically the way they're used in projects I work on is:
07:41:18  <andythenorth> you write unit test code that tries to make some edge case or error occur
07:41:22  * Terkhen did not study that with the same name that appears on spanish wikipedia :P
07:42:01  <andythenorth> I found that unit tests which try to break stuff are more useful
07:42:08  <andythenorth> than unit tests that try to confirm stuff is working correctly
07:47:25  * andythenorth tries to list the essential 'getting started' items http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/268/
07:47:59  * planetmaker should really try to fix this internal server error thingy :S
07:48:25  <planetmaker> but I don't quite know which VM it runs on...
08:02:33  <andythenorth> expanded: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/269/
08:02:40  <andythenorth> planetmaker: you can't see the pastes?
08:03:04  <planetmaker> Currently I can't
08:03:28  <planetmaker> and obviously it's a problem only local to me. why ever
08:04:19  <andythenorth> you're logged in somehow?
08:04:25  <andythenorth> you have a session cookie set?
08:05:02  <planetmaker> dunno how that'll trigger a 500
08:05:02  <andythenorth> try clearing the lodgeit sessions from your cookies
08:06:08  <andythenorth> if there's something in the app that is looking in your cookie, you might get a 500 on an edge case
08:06:26  <andythenorth> similarly if it's trying to authenticate you for some reason that could be a cause
08:08:27  <planetmaker> hm... does FF have a GUI for cookies? I guess not...
08:09:12  <Terkhen> I had to delete cookies for paste.openttdcoop.org once, I don't remember what happened though
08:10:06  <andythenorth> planetmaker: preferences -> privacy -> show cookies
08:10:54  <planetmaker> ah... quite tiny link ;-) Thanks. Looked there but didn't see it
08:11:37  <planetmaker> you're my hero andythenorth
08:11:39  <planetmaker> :-)
08:12:17  * Rubidium can't find any cookies in his preferred private cookie jar ;)
08:12:25  <planetmaker> :-P
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08:32:51  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #2728 (Closed): Snow graphics for Hotel (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2728
08:32:51  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 2027:93664e10dcb4: Feature: snow graphics for Hotel (clo... (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/93664e10dcb4
08:32:51  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #2728 (Closed): Snow graphics for Hotel (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2728#change-6857
08:32:51  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #2662: German translation (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2662#change-6858
08:33:46  <planetmaker> andythenorth: yes. But probably not before the 0.7 release is imminent ;-)
08:34:11  <andythenorth> there is a few weeks of work left for me to do :0
08:34:27  <planetmaker> and other strings might change as well ;-)
08:34:35  <planetmaker> Thus in order to avoid double work ... ;-)
08:35:47  <planetmaker> probably it'll be a good thing to ask ~1 week before the planned release for additional translations
08:35:54  <planetmaker> in the forums thread
08:49:21  <andythenorth> often we leave translations until 0.x.1 I guess anyway
08:49:40  <andythenorth> I don't know when the NML conversion will take place :|
08:49:55  <andythenorth> maybe I bounce the translation tickets
09:15:14  <Brot6> GRFCodec - Patch #2729 (New): Fix FSF address and GPL text (Heffer) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2729
09:28:58  <Brot6> GRFCodec - Patch #2729: Fix FSF address and GPL text (Heffer) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2729#change-6861
09:38:17  <andythenorth> planetmaker: btw I made it possible to more easily customise CC for each industry type
09:39:03  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 2028:2e94c0d208c3: Change: provide framework for adding ... (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/2e94c0d208c3
09:39:06  <planetmaker> :-) sweet
10:06:27  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 2029:a411da9cb2a6: Feature: snow graphics for Petrol Pum... (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/a411da9cb2a6
10:06:27  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1799 (Closed): Petrol Pump needs snow graphics (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/1799#change-6862
10:12:36  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #2730 (New): Fix roof shading on Quarry / Clay Pit buildings (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2730
10:16:17  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 2030:98b79e832fa9: Cleanup: remove unused source files (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/98b79e832fa9
10:20:48  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Trains - Revision 242:a5c2316deec2: -Codechange #2632: Support limestone as cargo explic... (planetmaker) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ogfx-trains/repository/revisions/a5c2316deec2
10:20:48  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Trains - Bug #2632 (Closed): Limestone missing from cargo table (planetmaker) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2632#change-6863
10:22:51  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Trains - Feature #2367 (Rejected): Consistently define all vehicles as new, fixed IDs (planetmaker) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2367#change-6864
10:23:33  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Trains - Feature #1895 (Closed): Adjust cargo definitions to match OpenGFX+ RV (planetmaker) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/1895#change-6865
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10:38:16  <Terkhen> :)
10:47:45  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 2031:99bf10b095a7: Feature: improve appearance of Arable... (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/99bf10b095a7
10:47:45  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 2032:3732df5819b2: Feature: improve appearance of Fruit ... (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/3732df5819b2
10:47:45  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 2033:2b7388fded4f: Feature: improve appearance of Dairy ... (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/2b7388fded4f
10:47:49  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 2034:b09564cacc8c: Feature: improve appearance of Mixed ... (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/b09564cacc8c
10:47:53  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 2035:fba28d5fcd11: Feature: improve appearance of Sheep ... (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/fba28d5fcd11
10:47:57  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #2530 (Closed): Change roof pitch of farmhouse (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2530#change-6866
10:49:04  <Brot6> repository /home/hg/haydn registered in Redmine with url /home/hg/haydn
10:49:04  <Brot6> repository /home/hg/haydn created
10:50:43  <andythenorth> ho
10:51:43  <Terkhen> haydn? what project is that? :P
10:51:56  <Terkhen> are we getting new music? :P
10:52:09  <planetmaker> haydn is the hypervisor everything runs on
10:52:18  <Terkhen> oh, ok :)
10:52:31  * andythenorth wonders how many frames animation a flag needs
10:52:49  <planetmaker> andythenorth: speed 3 or 4
10:52:53  <planetmaker> oh. frames: 4
10:52:59  <planetmaker> like airport wind sock
10:53:21  <planetmaker> anyway. see you later
10:58:42  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 2036:4a097d4feebe: Change: use PNG for Dairy instead of PCX (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/4a097d4feebe
11:50:38  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 2037:47f88cf1a539: Change: provide a framework to animat... (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/47f88cf1a539
12:17:03  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 2038:108c84358bab: Change: Junk Yard uses improved 'near... (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/108c84358bab
12:17:03  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 2039:6ccd611ed253: Fix: Junk Yard wasn't handling cb28 c... (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/6ccd611ed253
12:17:03  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 2040:f4d899b8db53: Fix: wrong parameter for var 66 in to... (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/f4d899b8db53
12:28:12  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #2731 (New): All the defines for cb28 varaction 2 ID shou... (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2731
12:32:51  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 2041:9ffbc0767f5e: Change: Brewery uses improved 'near t... (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/9ffbc0767f5e
12:32:52  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 2042:4f04df69734a: Cleanup: remove unneeded templates (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/4f04df69734a
12:32:52  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 2043:4c0acad24363: Change: Builders Yard uses improved '... (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/4c0acad24363
12:34:05  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 2044:9c3a78206d0e: Cleanup: remove unneeded templates (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/9c3a78206d0e
12:36:45  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 2045:61b0849896c4: Cleanup: forget deleted file (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/61b0849896c4
12:38:39  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #997 (Closed): Textile Mill needs some greeble / fenced t... (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/997#change-6868
12:39:34  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #477 (Rejected): Retail Market graphics (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/477#change-6869
12:43:57  * andythenorth finds Bilge odd
12:44:06  <andythenorth> and will do something else than talk to him
12:44:09  <Terkhen> andythenorth: Bilge is always trying to annoy anyone who talks with him, I suggest that you ignore him
12:44:11  <Terkhen> :P
12:45:56  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #1055 (Rejected): Strange availability date behaviour (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/1055#change-6871
12:46:10  * andythenorth wants less than 84 FIRS tickets :P
12:46:24  <Terkhen> :)
12:47:20  <Terkhen> I still don't understand the plan... will you be porting all of that stuff once that the nml conversion is done? or will 0.6.5 be a "test release" for NML and we will convert trunk again later?
12:50:17  <andythenorth> port 0.6.4 to NML, release 0.6.5 for players to test
12:50:23  <andythenorth> that gets the conversion script tested
12:50:30  <andythenorth> meanwhile keep working on 0.7
12:50:38  <andythenorth> then use the (tested) conversion script on that
12:50:53  <andythenorth> and then the pain of porting all the comments, the template structure, everything else
12:51:10  <andythenorth> FIRS makes use of modular templates *a lot*
12:51:16  <Terkhen> ok :)
12:51:35  <Terkhen> so 0.6.5 does not actually need to convert everything to nice code
12:51:39  <andythenorth> no
12:51:42  <andythenorth> just a working newgrf
12:51:55  <andythenorth> then we see if 'many eyes makes shallow bugs' works
12:52:23  <Terkhen> I see, then 0.6.5 is only missing action14 conversion and maybe something else :P
12:52:31  <andythenorth> sooner it was done, the better...
12:52:46  <andythenorth> the download rate won't be that high - no new features
12:52:56  <andythenorth> we'll primarily be depending on coop games and such to test it
12:53:36  <Terkhen> once I finish with university (15 of july or something like that) I will have plenty of time for start with the nice conversion; ideally 0.6.5 could be released long before that
12:53:47  <Terkhen> we could do another coop yacd test game with 0.6.5 ;)
12:54:19  <andythenorth> that would be ideal
12:54:30  <andythenorth> although it's so far behind trunk that it makes my eyes bleed :P
12:54:37  <Terkhen> :D
12:54:44  <andythenorth> many graphics have been improved since 0.6.4
12:56:07  <Terkhen> changes to sprites could be backported to the 0.6 branch; the conversion does not deal with them at all (as long as you did not change offsets and so on)
12:56:15  <Terkhen> that could be a selling point for 0.6.5
12:56:27  <Terkhen> changes to layouts and so on shouldn't be backported, though
12:56:30  <Terkhen> time for lunch, bbl
12:57:00  <andythenorth> me too
13:51:16  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 1397:65f77091497c: Cleanup: Replace all tabs with spaces in the r... (Hirundo) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository/revisions/65f77091497c
13:57:45  <Yexo> Hirundo: do you also plan on changes the nml output?
13:57:49  <Yexo> as that uses tabs too
13:59:03  <Hirundo> Does it? (looks)
13:59:25  <Yexo> see all __str__ functions in ast/
14:01:09  <Hirundo> For NML output tabs make more sense, as the average user is likely to expect those
14:01:38  <Hirundo> I switched to spaces for the regression tests, so I don't have to reconfigure my editor every time I edit those tests
14:02:23  <Yexo> ok, fair enough
14:12:04  <andythenorth> Yexo: would drawing graphics really make any difference to NewAirports progress (given the many other projects we're all working on)?
14:12:51  <Yexo> not really, there are two separate projects: Creating rotated versions off all default airports, this needs mostly graphics and a little bit of nfo or nml code
14:13:01  <Yexo> that project is currently halted because of lack of graphics
14:13:25  <Yexo> there is also the NewAirports projects, allowing new statemachines written in newgrfs
14:13:47  <Yexo> I'm not going to work on that anytime soon, since it's still a big project and I won't have time to finish it before my holiday
14:20:56  <andythenorth> ok
14:21:01  * andythenorth -> back to FIRS
14:54:01  * andythenorth inflicts evil on whoever next pulls FIRS :o
14:56:18  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 2046:656b70884867: Change: rerrange graphics sources to ... (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/656b70884867
14:56:47  <andythenorth> 23MB of graphics source changes :(
14:57:31  <Yexo> did you actually change any graphics files or just move them around?
14:59:33  <andythenorth> moved them around
15:00:20  <Terkhen> 21s for pull :)
15:01:03  <Ammler>     hashed_password = hashlib.sha1(row[2] + hashlib.sha1(password).hexdigest()).hexdigest()
15:01:04  <Ammler> TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for +: 'NoneType' and 'str'
15:01:09  <Ammler> is this some python version issue?
15:02:38  <Yexo> Ammler: "row[2]" is actually None instead of a string
15:03:19  <Yexo> doesn't look like a typical python version issue
15:05:00  <Ammler> ah ok
15:05:01  <Ammler> possible
16:03:47  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 2047:a10256b7769e: Change: add snow tile to ground tiles (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/a10256b7769e
17:09:17  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Bug #2732 (New): DevZone compile failed (compiler) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2732
17:11:50  <Yexo> Ammler: "Server returned an error: HTTP Error 503: Service Temporarily Unavailable" <- that shouldn't generate a ticker
17:13:06  <Ammler> well, I test that, but mayb it happen between my test and the building...
17:13:26  <Yexo> it's no big deal :)
17:13:36  <Yexo> should I just close the ticket or assign to you?
17:14:29  <Ammler> and what should I do with it?
17:14:54  <Ammler> I could also just reject/delete :-)
17:14:57  <planetmaker> improve the check ;-)
17:15:09  <Ammler> planetmaker: not worth :-P
17:15:51  <planetmaker> probably :-)
17:18:23  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #2733 (New): DevZone compile failed (compiler) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2733
17:18:45  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Bug #2732 (Rejected): DevZone compile failed (compiler) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2732
17:18:45  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Bug #2732 (Rejected): DevZone compile failed (yexo) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2732#change-6873
17:18:46  <andythenorth> missing file?
17:18:59  <andythenorth> no
17:19:40  <Ammler> hmm
17:20:06  <Ammler> why does the curl not work anymore?
17:22:55  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Trains - Bug #2734 (New): DevZone compile failed (compiler) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2734
17:23:24  <Ammler> the issue is that the api is reachable but the service is down
17:26:39  <Brot6> Following repos didn't need a nightlies update: 2cctrainset (r750), 32bpp-extra (r40), ai-admiralai (r75), ai-aroai (r39), ailib-common (r21), ailib-direction (r17), ailib-list (r32), ailib-string (r29), ailib-tile (r16), airportsplus (r93), basecosts (r25), belarusiantowns (r8), bros (r52), chips (r141), comic-houses (r71), fish (r653), frenchtowns (r6), german-townnames (r34), grfcodec (r830), grfpack (r279), heqs (r605),
17:26:39  <Brot6> indonesiantowns (r41), manindu (r7), metrotrackset (r56), narvs (r37), newgrf_makefile (r294), nml (ERROR r1397), nutracks (r201), ogfx-industries (r119), ogfx-landscape (r69), ogfx-rv (r107), opengfx (r673), openmsx (r97), opensfx (r97), smts (r19), snowlinemod (r49), spanishtowns (r10), sub-landscape (ERROR r66), sub-opengfx (ERROR r666), swedishrails (r202), swisstowns (r22), transrapidtrackset (r15), ttdviewer (r34), ttrs (r36),
17:26:41  <Brot6> worldairlinersset (r672)
17:27:07  <Brot6> OpenGFX Trees - Bug #2735 (New): DevZone compile failed (compiler) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2735
17:27:44  <Brot6> sub-landscape: compile of r66 still failed (#2616) - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/sub-landscape/nightlies/ERROR/r66
17:28:22  <Ammler> :'-(
17:28:34  <Ammler> this really sucks
17:30:01  <planetmaker> maybe it needs testing after all ;-)
17:31:58  <Brot6> sub-opengfx: compile of r666 still failed (#2586) - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/sub-opengfx/nightlies/ERROR/r666
17:32:44  <Ammler> oh, helpful really
17:33:07  <Ammler> testing is needed, if you don't know, what's the issue, I know the issue :-P
17:34:39  <planetmaker> :-P
17:34:42  <planetmaker> sorry
17:39:14  <Ammler> I have an idea to check service too, but it sucks anyway...
18:23:09  <andythenorth> Ammler: I blame r666 ^
18:23:14  <andythenorth> it's a bad number :P
18:23:29  <Terkhen> :D
18:23:40  <Brot6> GRFCodec - Revision 831:2b9ec70508a8: -Fix [FS#1629]: we still refered to an old FSF address and ... (Rubidium) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/grfcodec/repository/revisions/2b9ec70508a8
18:23:49  <Rubidium> blont!
18:25:03  <Brot6> GRFCodec - Patch #2729 (Closed): Fix FSF address and GPL text (Heffer) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2729
18:25:03  <Brot6> GRFCodec - Patch #2729 (Closed): Fix FSF address and GPL text (Rubidium) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2729#change-6874
18:59:39  <Brot6> grfcodec: update from r830 to r831 done - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/grfcodec/nightlies/r831
18:59:58  <Brot6> Following repos didn't need a nightlies update: 2cctrainset (r750), 32bpp-extra (r40), ai-admiralai (r75), ai-aroai (r39), ailib-common (r21), ailib-direction (r17), ailib-list (r32), ailib-string (r29), ailib-tile (r16), airportsplus (r93), basecosts (r25), belarusiantowns (r8), bros (r52), chips (r141), comic-houses (r71), firs (ERROR r2047), fish (r653), frenchtowns (r6), german-townnames (r34), grfpack (r279), heqs (r605),
18:59:58  <Brot6> indonesiantowns (r41), manindu (r7), metrotrackset (r56), narvs (r37), newgrf_makefile (r294), nml (ERROR r1397), nutracks (r201), ogfx-industries (r119), ogfx-landscape (r69), ogfx-rv (r107), ogfx-trains (ERROR r242), ogfx-trees (ERROR r50), opengfx (r673), openmsx (r97), opensfx (r97), smts (r19), snowlinemod (r49), spanishtowns (r10), sub-landscape (ERROR r66), sub-opengfx (ERROR r666), swedishrails (r202), swisstowns (r22),
19:00:00  <Brot6> transrapidtrackset (r15), ttdviewer (r34), ttrs (r36), worldairlinersset (r672)
19:04:34  <Brot6> firs: update from r2013 to r2047 done - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/nightlies/r2047
19:08:40  <Brot6> ogfx-trees: update from r49 to r50 done - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/ogfx-trees/nightlies/r50
19:10:33  <Brot6> opengfx: rebuild of r673 done (Diffsize: 7) (DiffDiffsize: 8) - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/opengfx/nightlies/r673/log
19:11:28  <Brot6> sub-landscape: compile of r66 still failed (#2616) - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/sub-landscape/nightlies/ERROR/r66
19:12:20  <Brot6> sub-opengfx: compile of r666 still failed (#2586) - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/sub-opengfx/nightlies/ERROR/r666
19:14:18  <Brot6> Following repos rebuilds successful without any difference to earlier nightlies builds: 2cctrainset (6 errors), 32bpp-extra (2 errors), basecosts, bros (1 errors), chips (1 errors), comic-houses (3 errors) (Diffsize: 22), fish, heqs, metrotrackset (Diffsize: 1), newgrf_makefile, nutracks, smts (Diffsize: 8), snowlinemod, transrapidtrackset (Diffsize: 12), ttrs (7 errors) (Diffsize: 1324), worldairlinersset
19:20:03  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 2048:0f1a00f22ba4: Feature: snow sprites for Dairy (clos... (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/0f1a00f22ba4
19:20:03  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #2536 (Closed): Dairy needs snow graphics (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2536#change-6875
19:32:55  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #2736 (New): Hungarian Translation (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2736
19:40:19  <Terkhen> andythenorth: nice sprites :)
19:41:49  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Industries - Bug #2737 (New): Snowy sprite for shop (Terkhen) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2737
21:24:13  *** andythenorth has left #openttdcoop.devzone
22:04:20  *** ODM has quit IRC
22:15:26  <Yexo> action14 conversion from grf to nml is done
22:15:49  <Yexo> next thing is a few changes to firs to it doesn't reuse stringids for different strings and the conversion should be complete
22:16:04  <Yexo> will try to finish it tomorrow (and perhaps also release 0.6.5 tomorrow?)
22:16:16  <Terkhen> wooo great :)
22:16:55  <Terkhen> I'll be around in the morning in case I can help with anything
22:17:07  <Terkhen> as usual andythenorth isn't here, but he wanted to release 0.6.5 as soon as possible
22:17:48  <Yexo> yes, I read you wanted that too, so the conversion of firs trunk can happen as soon as possible
22:17:55  *** frosch123 has quit IRC
22:18:19  <Yexo> I'll be going away for a little over a month starting july 9th, so I hope to convert firs trunk before that
22:20:42  <Terkhen> hmm... I'll probably be very busy in the first two weeks of july
22:20:55  <Terkhen> my project is due for the 15th :)
22:21:21  <Terkhen> I'l probably be around to help, but not as much as I would like
22:21:50  <Yexo> I just meant the basic conversion (ie working code), making everything nice and templating where possible won't be finished before the 9th (or 15th)
22:22:11  <Yexo> and that is the part where most help will be required
22:23:45  <Terkhen> true, ok :)
22:23:54  <Terkhen> I guess it will take at least a month
22:23:58  <Terkhen> the code is huge
22:25:50  <Yexo> wc -l firs.nml -> 50k lines
22:26:23  <Terkhen> hmm... maybe I'm being a bit optimistic? :P
22:28:12  <Hirundo> I guess a *lot* is due to templated stuff
22:28:33  <Terkhen> yes, FIRS has a lot of templates
22:28:47  <Terkhen> I guess that we should start by taking all templated code and moving it back to templates
22:28:54  <Hirundo> AFAIK, stuff like callback action2s are duplicated N times
22:30:57  <Yexo> indeed
22:31:18  <Yexo> wc -l firs.nfo -> 60k lines :)
22:31:27  <Yexo> that is, already preprocessed, original nfo
22:31:46  <Terkhen> heh, it is actually smaller? :P
22:32:22  <Yexo> preprocessed code has a lot of empty lines
22:32:31  <Yexo> so I guess not really :)
22:34:44  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Feature #2738 (New): Proper support of persistent storage (Hirundo) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2738
22:35:46  <Hirundo> It'd be nice, if there was a way to supply debug info / errors from within the varaction2 code
22:38:27  <Hirundo> So users can sort of trace control flow instead of black box trial / error
22:39:37  <Terkhen> hmm... something like a log? identifying each "caller" by its ID and type maybe
22:40:28  <Hirundo> "caller" in what sense?
22:41:00  <Terkhen> Industry(0x04) for example
22:41:08  <Terkhen> caller is not the right term :P
22:43:07  <Hirundo> I was more thinking along the lines of emitting the names and values of each switch block
22:43:49  <Hirundo> Which would require attaching a string to a varaction2 in nfo - not sure if that's feasible
22:44:56  <Terkhen> hmm... using extra information in the newgrf? something akin to a debug build?
22:44:57  <Hirundo> ideally like "switch 'foo': resulting value 312 -> choice 2" appearing in the console

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