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Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 23rd July 2011:
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00:00:05  *** frosch123 has quit IRC
00:17:09  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Revision 74:163b1df1108e: more accurate calculation of TE for prussi... (Eddi) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets/repository/revisions/163b1df1108e
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08:05:25  <Terkhen> oh
08:05:42  <Terkhen> then I won't be able to help with FIRS until I have linux again
08:07:20  <planetmaker> what did you do to your linux system?
08:07:40  <planetmaker> alternatively, Terkhen, you could just convert all pcx to png ;-)
08:07:53  <planetmaker> a task which eventually needs doing anyway (IMHO)
08:08:07  <V453000> or if you want to draw stuff just come help me with http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ur-trains :P
08:08:28  <Ammler> nuts!
08:08:33  <V453000> nuts!
08:08:58  <Terkhen> that sounds even more boring than beautifying nml code :P
08:09:16  <V453000> :D
08:09:17  <Terkhen> V453000: I can't draw, I barely can recolour cargos :P
08:09:17  <V453000> k
08:09:31  <V453000> hmm :p
08:09:53  <Terkhen> I waited for about 4 months for a drawer for ogfx-rv
08:09:58  <planetmaker> :-D I fully understand that, Terkhen :-) - and didn't expect a "sure, I'll have it finished in T-10" ;-)
08:10:28  <V453000> mhm :)
08:11:07  <V453000> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/1693/Wagons_Flatbed02_04_x.png does anyone have some good idea what item should food/goods/sweets look like? I am blank on ideas on those 3
08:11:11  <Terkhen> planetmaker: if you give me a script that does the conversion from console I'll have it ready as soon as windows is able to do it
08:11:30  <Terkhen> :P
08:11:53  <planetmaker> I suspect that irfanview could do it
08:12:59  <planetmaker> V453000: sweets: giant candies or chocolate bars or lollies
08:13:15  <V453000> hmm, chocolate is a nice idea
08:13:34  <V453000> lets see :)
08:13:43  <planetmaker> goods: the "default" containers will do quite nicely. Food the same with a AC unit installed
08:14:00  <V453000> yeah but what is a container ... just a colourful box ... :d
08:14:15  <planetmaker> or in toyland: gift-wrapped parcel. Food: pot of stew
08:14:33  <V453000> but I guess I will keep goods creativity for "more proper" flatbeds :)
08:14:37  <V453000> he :)
08:14:55  <planetmaker> be sure that I'll "steal" your wagons if you're too creative for toyland :-P
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08:15:10  <V453000> for what? :|
08:15:26  <planetmaker> OpenGFX toyland?
08:15:30  <V453000> btw toy wagons are incompatible with opengfx :P
08:15:49  <V453000> they have the red robots ttd factory produces
08:15:53  <V453000> opengfx has duckies :P
08:17:06  <planetmaker> yes, I got it. You don't appreciate to support the only free graphics set :{
08:17:25  <V453000> you know why
08:17:42  <planetmaker> I can't imagine any reason why
08:17:44  <V453000> and now when I actually look at it when zoomed out when I am drawing I am getting disgusted more and more
08:17:52  <V453000> the style it is drawn in totally disgusts me
08:17:54  <V453000> no offence
08:18:01  <planetmaker> ach, bugger off
08:18:31  <planetmaker> sounds like a good reason for "I don't like it as is. So it must stay that way and I'll certainly not help make it better"
08:18:35  <planetmaker> good reason. Very good one
08:19:41  <V453000> well since majority is obviously happy with how it is, I do not see a reason why to change it
08:19:53  <planetmaker> thus the attitude "I don't like it but I even hate more to improve it" is what I absolutely do not understand. And which pisses me off, quite frankly
08:20:11  <Ammler> nah, noone is happy with the current state
08:20:17  <Ammler> there is just no alternative for most
08:20:47  <Ammler> and it is not that hard to be better as ttd original
08:21:02  <planetmaker> And what reaction do you expect when you say "I hate it. I definitely won't help to make it better"?
08:21:17  <V453000> I dont expect any other, I fully understand
08:21:48  <planetmaker> But I don't understand your attitude. Why?
08:22:32  <planetmaker> Why not make the difference there where most people will notice?
08:23:20  <V453000> Well quite frankly, the main thing I respect in opengfx is how much work it took, so many sprites. And the authors doing that might in my eyes have done it ugly, but made an extensive effort. I do not feel like making one part different from the rest. At least it is all in one style uniformly.
08:24:27  <planetmaker> One has to start somewhere. And it will never get anywhere with that attitude
08:24:39  <planetmaker> it's like "oh, a long journey. Let's stay at home"
08:25:01  <planetmaker> Honestly, there's a lot which can get better in OpenGFX.
08:25:21  <planetmaker> Most of all I'd like 'better' houses. And lots of industries could get a bit more 'crispy', too
08:25:48  <planetmaker> The different climates may very well have completely different styles. No hurt. Actually it'd be added fun
08:26:42  <planetmaker> Why do you think did I start to borrow sprites from andy for some industries?
08:27:01  <V453000> he :)
08:27:16  <Rubidium> you have to respect andy's freedom to reject that though ;)
08:27:19  <planetmaker> But it's 10000 sprites. And hundrets of objects. And one person doing the coding work mostly
08:27:48  <V453000> Honestly, I just absolutely hate to see 2 newgrfs having the same sprites. Or even base set in this case
08:27:51  <planetmaker> Rubidium: GPL is GPL ;-). And even then, I asked and he's fine with that.
08:28:02  <V453000> Which is probably the hugest real problem I have
08:28:12  <planetmaker> V453000: but having a good base set is more important than yet another newgrf
08:28:40  <V453000> well, yes
08:28:53  <Rubidium> ah, that's why OpenGFX is so bad... it has some of the same sprites as you'd get with the original game
08:29:12  <Rubidium> +graphics
08:29:19  <Rubidium> (and openttd.grf)
08:29:27  <planetmaker> hm?
08:29:52  <Rubidium> what? You don't know some sprites in openttd.grf are exactly the same as in opengfx.grf?
08:30:02  <planetmaker> of course I do know that.
08:30:09  <planetmaker> Mostly GUI
08:30:55  <planetmaker> Not sure about tram tracks
08:31:30  <Rubidium> I think it's mostly (bits of) the font
08:31:36  <planetmaker> :-D
08:31:55  <Rubidium> that OpenTTD has taken over from OpenGFX ;)
08:31:56  <planetmaker> I _do_ remember that, now you mention it
08:32:12  <planetmaker> :-)
08:32:40  <planetmaker> V453000: quite frankly I'd be more than happy, if I had people who'd (also) work on OpenGFX
08:32:53  <planetmaker> It's much too big for one person to achieve there much noticable progress
08:33:50  <V453000> I understand, and if I have some will to draw after I finish this set, then I might help you with drawing some sprites, but I will probably strongly dislike the train set to be transformed into opengfx
08:34:23  <planetmaker> yeah... "after..." :-(
08:34:36  <planetmaker> the way you plan your set it will not be finished before 2013.5
08:35:07  <V453000> unless I get some aid myself :)
08:38:50  * Rubidium still hopes someone 'finishes' opensfx with more free samples
08:38:53  <planetmaker> base set trains are a pain. I'm litterally bored of trying to fix them. Or when I'm not bored, the artists are bored
08:39:07  <V453000> :D
08:39:28  <planetmaker> NewGRF train sets are very easy to make in comparison
08:39:39  <V453000> what is the difference?
08:39:55  <planetmaker> restrictions on sprite and vehicle sizes
08:40:03  <planetmaker> and no newgrf capabilities
08:40:24  <V453000> hmm :o
08:40:45  <planetmaker> you can align the sprites. But that's it
08:41:12  <planetmaker> you can't play with vehicle length, you can't play with livery overrides, you can't play with depot sprite size, with purchase sprites
08:42:11  <planetmaker> and then people come "oh, it's ugly. But I'll rather die than help. Sooo motivating"
08:42:32  <V453000> why are such sizes so important? I use pikkas 8/8 template which seems to be according to ttd vehicles and seems ... quite okay
08:43:09  <planetmaker> yes, you can adjust depot sprite size and you probably have
08:43:35  <planetmaker> And you can adjust for reversed operation. Base sets need to work without having a different alignment for reversed
08:43:54  <planetmaker> As base set vehicles are allowed to flip. All of them
08:44:10  <planetmaker> Thus it's also a pain to differ engines somewhat in size. As that'll look funky for too short ones, too
08:45:35  <V453000> guess I just have too low amount of experience to understand such problems :)
08:47:03  <planetmaker> do not set in your newgrf the 32px depot width. And only use the 8/8 alignment template for the vehicles
08:47:10  <planetmaker> That's basically what you have for base sets
08:48:47  <V453000> I plan to have  only anyway
08:48:53  <V453000> I plan to have  only anyway
08:48:55  <V453000> omg
08:48:57  <V453000> 8/8
08:49:00  <V453000> numlock broken :-D
08:49:54  <V453000> as I said, shorter vehicles lead to very nice problems with CLs sometimes
08:50:43  <V453000> depot counter says 2.0 and sometimes it works, sometimes not ... enough of a reason to use only 8/8 for me tbh
08:51:02  <V453000> which is also a partial reason why the maglev wagons have 2 in pair to fill an 8/8
08:53:24  <planetmaker> so... why don't you then design (and implement) us nice maglevs for the base set?
08:53:56  <Ammler> you mean the tracks, right?
08:54:46  <planetmaker> I meant actually vehicles. They're somewhat of too small size IIRC. But tracks... yes, maybe
08:55:08  <planetmaker> the wagons should at least become 29px ;-)
08:56:24  <Ammler> hmm, didn't you shorten those?
08:57:17  <planetmaker> yes, no :-)
08:57:46  <planetmaker> base set trains are a pain... Maybe we should get a solution to use 32px in the depot also for base sets...
08:58:14  <planetmaker> might make things considerably easier...
08:58:26  <V453000> honestly when I even try to imagine to replace something of the base set, for example tracks, I get to having no clue what do I want to do because it is not based purely on my imagination
08:58:53  <V453000> which is probably the same thought matter as I have with real trains - openttd. I just cannot find any connection in my mind between it
09:02:05  <planetmaker> Mostly it needs nice graphics. Thus to fit somewhat, engines of one climate need to be considered jointly. As do wagons. Possibly also both together
09:02:18  <planetmaker> And at best all three track types together.
09:02:36  <planetmaker> As there's the ugly fact that they share two wagon designs ;-)
09:04:22  <planetmaker> rubber and one other, I don't quite recall. Source code comments will tell ;-)
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09:45:32  <planetmaker> quak :-)
09:45:46  <frosch123> morning planetmaker :)
09:45:55  <frosch123> did you catch my message from last night from the logs?
09:46:28  <planetmaker> yes, but only after I continued a bit editing when I was a bit sleepless around 5am
09:46:37  <frosch123> lol
09:46:38  <planetmaker> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/User:Planetmaker <-- what do you think?
09:46:39  <Webster> Title: User:Planetmaker - GRFSpecs (at newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net)
09:47:08  <planetmaker> the main problem prevails, though: templates can have a line break between image an text
09:47:12  <frosch123> imo it looks a lot better with a space between the icons
09:47:24  <planetmaker> yes
09:47:33  <frosch123> planetmaker: i would expect that can be solved with some attribute at the span
09:47:57  <planetmaker> I guess one ottdp template will suffice, eh?
09:48:03  <planetmaker> what should the defaults be?
09:48:13  <planetmaker> I actually toy with the idea to have ttdp = no be the default
09:48:27  <frosch123> planetmaker: i would not remove the existing templates, but add a third one combining them
09:48:35  <planetmaker> yes, of course
09:48:41  <frosch123> default is no support for either of them
09:48:41  <planetmaker> no need to remove them
09:49:15  <planetmaker> well, my train of thought was: when later a new setting / property / var is added: default will always be ottd: yes, ttdp=no
09:49:52  <planetmaker> I'm only talking about the ottdp template now :-)
09:50:04  <frosch123> well, if the template looks like {{ottdp|ottd=1.2}} it would make the default of ttdp to "no"
09:50:32  <planetmaker> and the other thing I'd like to change is that "no version given" doesn't display the ?? but just nothing
09:50:33  <frosch123> if it is {{ottdp|ottd=1.2|ttdp=}} it would make it ttdp support with unknown version
09:50:51  <planetmaker> yes, so?
09:51:12  <planetmaker> {{ottdp|1.2|}} would - as now lead to 1.2 / no
09:51:26  <planetmaker> hm... actually no. that'd lead to unknown TTDP version
09:51:36  <planetmaker> while {{ottdp|1.2}} would lead to ttdp = no
09:51:46  <frosch123> imo use named parematers
09:51:58  <frosch123> tthen you can distinguish empty and unassigned ones
09:51:58  <planetmaker> well, see my user page I just linked
09:52:38  <planetmaker> for unassigned we still have the single templates
09:52:43  <frosch123> oh, now i understand. you want to use ottd/ttdp templates if the other one does not support it
09:52:47  <planetmaker> at least unassigned for ottd
09:52:54  <Ammler> you think, you need versioned ttdp icons?
09:53:04  <planetmaker> Ammler: we do have
09:53:07  <frosch123> Ammler: more than for ottd
09:53:51  <planetmaker> frosch123: the idea is that new entries only need ottdp. Which will define the ottd entry and set ttdp to 'not implemented'
09:54:11  <Ammler> the spec is for authors, I don't think a author would make a newgrf and care for acient patch
09:54:18  <planetmaker> this obviously is not much helpful for adding them now. But in all future
09:54:42  <Ammler> it even is already much efort to support patch nightly
09:54:49  <planetmaker> as I don't expect any additions which will be ttdp only. And even then ottd support will be known
09:55:08  <frosch123> Ammler: http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Template:Ottd we also state ottd support for 0.6
09:55:09  <Webster> Title: Template:Ottd - GRFSpecs (at newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net)
09:55:18  <frosch123> just not earlier as that is hard to say
09:55:21  <Brot6> Unrealistic Trainset - Feature #2870: General ideas (oberhuemer) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2870#change-7123
09:55:26  <frosch123> 0.5 is too broken :p
09:55:29  <Ammler> frosch123: yep, quite useless
09:55:44  <frosch123> no
09:55:45  <Ammler> you could start with 1.0
09:56:23  <frosch123> Ammler: if you do not care about history, why do you use a vcs?
09:56:29  <planetmaker> frosch123: unless you really strongly object, I'll start to use the ottdp template in further pages. And I'd like to use it as in the last line of that template, with the explicit version shown right there (if applicable)
09:56:49  <planetmaker> and the ?? for undefined version imho are confusing
09:56:58  <frosch123> planetmaker: making ottdp default to ottd yes, and ttdp no is inconsitent
09:56:59  <planetmaker> I'll add the spaces, they're lovely, now is ugly
09:57:18  <Ammler> frosch123: well, the info is already there, it would just be quite stupid to invest time for it
09:57:36  <planetmaker> ok, question is what outwheighs which. But ok, then it's all default = no
09:57:39  <frosch123> Ammler: you have to invest time anyway, else the info will be just wrong
09:58:01  <Ammler> it would make sense to mark features as depreciated though
09:58:35  <Ammler> but features which are supported with current stable don't matter, since when that is
09:58:49  <frosch123> i disagree on that
09:58:58  <Ammler> reason?
09:59:21  <Rubidium> I think that specs wise it's not very useful to go back more than 2 releases in the 'general' view, i.e. saying it's 1.0- should be okay. As long as clicking on it, or hovering over it gives more detailed information
10:00:12  <frosch123> yeah, revision numbers could go into the alternate image text
10:00:34  <Rubidium> *or* ... even fancier... you select the version you want to make the NewGRF support. Then it'll only show you the things that are supported by that version
10:01:15  <frosch123> planetmaker: anyway, i would prefer named arguments for the ottdp template
10:01:38  <frosch123> so you can optionally specify revision numbers, which are shown differently, and not in a huge blue/orange blob
10:02:10  <frosch123> if you want defaults for ttdp/ottd support add a ttdponly and ottdonly template
10:02:36  <frosch123> like {{ottdonly|version|optional revision}}
10:02:38  <planetmaker> but that would make adding them much longer... adding separate named arguments for the revisions is IMHO a good idea. But not for the versions itself
10:04:23  <planetmaker> {{ottdp|ottdversion|ttdpversion|ottdrev=XXX|ttdprev=YYY}}
10:05:33  <frosch123> so you would write {{ottdp|no|2.0}} for something ttdp only?
10:06:26  <planetmaker> yes
10:07:48  <frosch123> i guess that would as well
10:08:40  <frosch123> added nowrap to ottd/ttdp templates
10:08:48  <planetmaker> ah, that works?
10:09:04  <Ammler> you don't handle depreciated, or are there none?
10:11:06  <planetmaker> cool :-)
10:11:20  <planetmaker> Ammler: hardly
10:11:30  <frosch123> Ammler: not at this stage
10:11:31  <planetmaker> I don't know any
10:11:46  <frosch123> as that is subjective in some way
10:13:15  <frosch123> planetmaker: oh, why don't you use the ottd/ttdp templates inside the ttdp template?
10:13:29  <planetmaker> no good reason
10:13:37  <frosch123> i'll change
10:13:40  <planetmaker> ok
10:14:11  <planetmaker> the best reason I have is "I was toying with templates and didn't want to destroy perfectly working templates"
10:19:31  <planetmaker> looks soo much easier now, frosch123 :-)
10:20:05  <frosch123> i guess next step is adding the rev attribute to ottd/ttdp templates, and put that in the alternative image text, if supplied
10:20:51  <frosch123> but some other channel makes we want to read the forums first :p
10:21:13  <planetmaker> :-D
10:42:59  <Brot6> Unrealistic Trainset - Feature #2870: General ideas (V453000) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2870#change-7124
10:43:21  <frosch123> planetmaker: ttdp 2.0.1 alpha means 2.5
10:43:38  <planetmaker> then I did it consistently wrong
10:44:00  <planetmaker> and 2.5 beta 9 is 2.6?
10:44:06  <frosch123> no :p
10:44:11  <planetmaker> tsk
10:45:39  <frosch123> yeah, this 2.0.1 version scheme is quite stupid
10:51:16  <planetmaker> I guess I'm off to some fixing
10:52:07  <frosch123> maybe wait for the new template with the detailed version in the hint?
11:00:38  <Ammler> you see, you invest already too much time in useless things :-P
11:01:06  <planetmaker> probably a good idea. Are you working on it?
11:01:12  <frosch123> yes
11:01:16  <planetmaker> ok :-)
11:01:43  <frosch123> just wondering whether there is way to specify a hoover text for the whole span instead of the image only
11:02:01  <frosch123> Ammler: one advantage of explicit version number is, that you actually think about what you write
11:02:22  <frosch123> i already found wrong footnotes
11:03:02  <frosch123> where someone added ttdp/ottd support later to the footnote, while they actually did not support everything the footnote referred to
11:03:53  <planetmaker> lalala, was that me?
11:03:55  <Ammler> frosch123: I just meant, you don't need to distinguish the versions
11:04:13  <Ammler> it is fine enough to just tell ttdp or ottd stable/trunk support
11:04:15  <planetmaker> Ammler: but it makes sense. NewGRF authors are interested in it. And it's specs.
11:04:22  <frosch123> planetmaker: no, but the the mentioning of the version in every line, instead of some obscure footnote, made it obvious
11:04:25  <planetmaker> i.e. for debugging stuff
11:04:32  <Ammler> planetmaker: they are interested if a grf needs trunk
11:05:10  <planetmaker> Ammler: or 'latest' stable. Or 1.0 as it allows newgrf changes. or 0.7 as it has still the 'good ol' AI' or similar
11:05:36  <Ammler> well, if you think so :-)
11:18:44  <planetmaker> do we want in tables actually rather var-version-size-description or var-size-version-description?
11:19:00  * planetmaker somewhat prefers the latter
11:22:30  <planetmaker> frosch123: Terkhen, michi_cc, Rubidium ^ any preference?
11:23:37  <Terkhen> for the wiki?
11:24:03  <planetmaker> yup, newgrf wiki
11:25:31  <Terkhen> IMO revision for things that still are not in a stable version, and 0.7, 1.0 and so on for the rest
11:26:40  <frosch123> planetmaker: i also prefer var-size-version-desc
11:26:49  <michi_cc> planetmaker: I don't write newgrfs, so I don't really care :)
11:26:55  <frosch123> though it also makes sense to put the version into the desc
11:27:00  <planetmaker> ok. Means re-arranging some (most) tables, but well
11:27:15  <frosch123> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/GlobalVariables <- i.e. i like the formatting in var 02/82
11:27:16  <planetmaker> hm, yes. In the beginning there...
11:27:16  <Webster> Title: GlobalVariables - GRFSpecs (at newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net)
11:27:42  <planetmaker> I'm fine with that. Do you prefer that?
11:27:54  <planetmaker> might save a bit space
11:28:07  <frosch123> i am not sure whether it looks nice in all cases :)
11:28:14  <planetmaker> but would maybe make it harder to filter out, if / when tables support it
11:28:40  <frosch123> yeah, so go for var-size-version-desc :)
11:29:02  <planetmaker> ok
11:30:35  <frosch123> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Template:Ottdp <- how about that?
11:30:36  <Webster> Title: Template:Ottdp - GRFSpecs (at newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net)
11:33:22  <michi_cc> Is it just my browser or are the icons on http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/VariationalAction2/Towns looking strange for anybody else?
11:33:23  <Webster> Title: VariationalAction2/Towns - GRFSpecs (at newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net)
11:34:33  <frosch123> michi_cc: if there is no parameter given, the default somehow seems to draw a ' instead of nothing
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11:35:20  <frosch123> resp, the default actually draws something, but " " results in '
11:36:02  <michi_cc> Opera seems to have some other problem: http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/patches/wiki.png
11:36:25  <michi_cc> The TTDP icon is somehow wrong. It's only the empty param case though, everything else looks alright.
11:37:55  <frosch123> yeah, the empty param looks weird, but it shall not be used anyway :)
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11:38:14  <frosch123> at least i would not know a usecase for it
11:49:43  * planetmaker uses/used it for the case of 'no version information'
11:53:47  <planetmaker> frosch123: but the revisions are nowhere shown currently, right?
11:55:24  <frosch123> planetmaker: in the hoover text
11:55:29  <frosch123> at least for me
11:55:36  <frosch123> (only on the text, not on the image)
11:55:43  <frosch123> though we could also show them in both
11:55:43  <andythenorth> does hoover text go around cleaning up?
11:56:20  <planetmaker> also for me. Thanks for the tip
11:57:07  <planetmaker> hover text is fine enough for me, keeps it tidy albeit still accessible
11:57:40  <planetmaker> but... yes, if shown over the icon, too would be nice
11:59:36  <frosch123> where did you get that alpha 45 from? afaik nothing of the bridge stuff is implemented at all
12:01:13  <planetmaker> uhm... I would say from the docs. /me checks
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12:02:00  <planetmaker> frosch123: it says as note (a): alpha 45
12:02:18  <planetmaker> oh, bridge... I was at industries
12:03:34  <planetmaker> but there's no alpha 45 in bridges? Or which where when?
12:04:04  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Revision 75:a4ad6ae3db6a: use more accurate TE calculation also for ... (Eddi) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets/repository/revisions/a4ad6ae3db6a
12:04:52  <frosch123> what?
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12:10:02  <planetmaker> 13:59 frosch123: where did you get that alpha 45 from? afaik nothing of the bridge stuff is implemented at all <-- that
12:16:31  <frosch123> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/index.php?title=VariationalAction2%2FBridges&diff=2008&oldid=1788 <- that alpha45
12:16:32  <Webster> Title: VariationalAction2/Bridges - GRFSpecs (at newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net)
12:16:59  <frosch123> i would have put "neither ottd nor ttdp support" there
12:19:51  <planetmaker> you're right, I must have pulled the version out of thin air :-O
12:20:07  <planetmaker> Is none of that implemented?
12:20:28  <planetmaker> why is that crap then there at all?
12:20:40  <planetmaker> hmpf...
12:22:58  <planetmaker> and why do the industry variables have no size? :S
12:24:24  <Ammler> you need a kind of "draft" template
12:24:36  <frosch123> planetmaker: because they are a modern implementation
12:24:49  <frosch123> it does not just fetch some data from some ttd memory location
12:25:04  <planetmaker> oh?
12:25:34  <frosch123> planetmaker: most of the 00-3f variables just refer to some ttd memory location
12:25:56  <frosch123> so if the variable in ttd is not a dword, it will just read the memory of whatever variable is stored after that
12:26:02  <frosch123> same holds for 80+ variables
12:26:12  <planetmaker> yes, I didn't assume that these were special
12:26:30  <frosch123> 40+ variables otoh are also in ttdp just a switchcase, which do custom stuff
12:26:52  <planetmaker> well, I'll leave it blank for now
12:27:53  <frosch123> oh, you mean even the 80+ variables do not specify a size of industries :) well, that needs filling in then
12:31:42  <frosch123> added them
12:33:17  * frosch123 needs to do some shopping
12:33:20  <frosch123> bbl
12:38:53  <planetmaker> enjoy
12:56:09  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 661:f1a6df4ca13d: Change: graphics for medium utility vessel 2 (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/fish/repository/revisions/f1a6df4ca13d
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13:29:18  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 662:77c80a33e180: Feature: Josephine Utility Vessel (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/fish/repository/revisions/77c80a33e180
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13:41:46  <planetmaker> when looking through these version infos like I did today... only then it really becomes apparent *how* dead TTDPatch really is
13:42:12  <planetmaker> it's really just on life support
13:42:53  <planetmaker> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action5 <-- nice illustration really
13:42:54  <Webster> Title: Action5 - GRFSpecs (at newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net)
14:10:51  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Revision 76:8c914e041773: fix BR 10 (Eddi) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets/repository/revisions/8c914e041773
14:17:11  <Terkhen> nice icons :P
14:17:32  <Terkhen> it would look better if all of them had the same width IMO
14:20:32  <planetmaker> yes, it would
14:20:45  <planetmaker> but those aren't really icons ;-)
14:20:53  <planetmaker> it's an icon with a coloured text box
14:21:07  <planetmaker> and the text box width varies
14:23:36  <Ammler> the updates for versioned devzone settings did indeed break testing building
14:24:51  <Terkhen> oh, ok :P
14:25:55  <Brot6> openttd-vehiclevars: update from  to r22682 done - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/openttd-vehiclevars/testing/r22682
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14:32:57  <Ammler> but wqrking again ^
14:37:02  <frosch123> michi_cc: please do not mix "nfo version" and "grf version"
14:37:35  <frosch123> "nfo version" is a grfcodec/nforenum only thing which works around grfcodec bugs and activates escape sequences
14:38:03  <frosch123> unluckily both are at 7 currently
14:38:25  <michi_cc> Okay, so change it to GRFv6 etc then?
14:38:41  <frosch123> yeah, do you have the rights to move pages?
14:38:49  <michi_cc> I have
14:38:55  <planetmaker> my bad. I started it
14:39:27  <frosch123> the idea is fine :)
14:40:54  <michi_cc> I can't delete http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/index.php?title=Template:Nfo&redirect=no though.
14:40:56  <Webster> Title: Template:Nfo - GRFSpecs (at newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net)
14:41:20  <frosch123> http://de.selfhtml.org/html/attribute/allgemeine.htm <- it starts to look like those html, xhtml, ie, ns tags :p
14:41:21  <Webster> Title: SELFHTML: HTML/XHTML / Universalattribute / Allgemeine Universalattribute (at de.selfhtml.org)
14:41:40  <planetmaker> done
14:46:46  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Revision 77:26f54b7e8368: 'short name' should be unique within one c... (Eddi) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets/repository/revisions/26f54b7e8368
15:34:40  <Rubidium> planetmaker: I refuse to believe that OpenTTD doesn't support actiton var A1
15:36:24  <planetmaker> sorry, I edited today probably literally every 2nd newgrf page... which one?
15:39:30  <Rubidium> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/GlobalVariables
15:39:31  <Webster> Title: GlobalVariables - GRFSpecs (at newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net)
15:42:36  <planetmaker> loool :-)
15:43:09  <Rubidium> oh, I forgot the 7 in the statement about the action
15:47:53  <frosch123> looks like my fault though :p
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16:22:52  <frosch123> http://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/Secondary_Related_Objects <- new crap
16:28:45  <planetmaker> :-) "Da haben wir den 'quak'"
16:28:53  <planetmaker> Sorry for the bad pun ;-) It was intended
16:29:05  <frosch123> you are welcome :)
16:33:30  <planetmaker> hm, looks quite interesting
16:37:20  <frosch123> just a summary of what has been discussed in the past
16:41:15  <Terkhen> it's interesting yes :P
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16:52:33  <planetmaker> one of the most urgent places for that approach is airports. Without a decision on how to design that there they'll remain a pain ;-)
16:53:26  <planetmaker> frosch123: looking at some entries in the NewGRF wiki you could just spec it and write a sentence à la "to be implemented" next to it ;-)
16:53:45  <planetmaker> - and then have it rot for two years or so ;-)
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17:04:00  <frosch123> no, that would cause dalestan appearing in my nightmares and yelling at me
17:06:01  <planetmaker> he :-)
17:06:23  <planetmaker> Ok, we grant you exeption from this kind of procedure
17:14:28  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Revision 78:365063c4f7b1: move template graphics to gfx/ directory. ... (Eddi) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets/repository/revisions/365063c4f7b1
17:14:28  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Revision 79:f75b94fbbc2d: ignore empty ID# entries (Eddi) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets/repository/revisions/f75b94fbbc2d
17:14:28  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Revision 80:7ac4654a6c66: use template graphics in vehicles (Eddi) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets/repository/revisions/7ac4654a6c66
17:14:29  <frosch123> newgrfs nightmares are already bad enough. e.g. imagine you have to code an articulated vehicle using grfmaker :p
17:14:29  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Revision 81:3eb3f3efacfb: add red pixel to 16lu template, to have so... (Eddi) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets/repository/revisions/3eb3f3efacfb
17:14:33  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Revision 82:1758dff0601f: use correct template length for dummy vehi... (Eddi) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets/repository/revisions/1758dff0601f
17:14:37  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Revision 83:8ac52cfc5fde: adjust sprite sizes and offsets to new tem... (Eddi) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets/repository/revisions/8ac52cfc5fde
17:14:41  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Revision 84:11597d19a489: the shortened template graphics were reversed (Eddi) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets/repository/revisions/11597d19a489
17:20:41  <Brot6> firs: update from r2181 to r2183 done - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/nightlies/r2183
17:23:22  <Brot6> cets: update from r68 to r84 done (482 warnings) - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/cets/nightlies/r84
17:23:57  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Revision 85:a74f97a66cad: sprite mixup in the movement scheme (Eddi) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets/repository/revisions/a74f97a66cad
17:24:49  <Brot6> fish: update from r658 to r662 done (4 warnings) - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/fish/nightlies/r662
17:25:18  <Brot6> Following repos didn't need a nightlies update: ogfx-trains (r245), narvs (r37), bros (r52), ogfx-industries (r121), sub-landscape (r72), opengfx (r681), ailib-tile (r16), transrapidtrackset (r15), 2cctrainset (r750), ailib-list (r32), opensfx (r97), ttdviewer (r34), worldairlinersset (r672), heqs (r605), openmsx (r97), basecosts (r25), nutracks (r202), nml (r1527), 32bpp-extra (r40), manindu (r7), newgrf_makefile (r305),
17:25:18  <Brot6> ailib-direction (r17), ailib-common (r21), snowlinemod (r49), dutchtramset (r84), ai-admiralai (r75), swisstowns (r22), metrotrackset (r56), spanishtowns (r10), frenchtowns (r6), grfpack (r279), ogfx-rv (r107), ogfx-landscape (r70), ttrs (r36), source-test (r2), ogfx-trees (r51), swedishrails (r203), grfcodec (r832), ai-aroai (r39), german-townnames (r34), smts (r19), chips (r143), belarusiantowns (r8), indonesiantowns (r41),
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17:25:20  <Brot6> ailib-string (r29), airportsplus (r107), comic-houses (r71)
17:26:04  <Brot6> narvs: compile of r37 still failed (#2789) - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/narvs/nightlies/ERROR/r37
17:26:43  <Brot6> ogfx-industries: compile of r121 still failed (#2792) - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/ogfx-industries/nightlies/ERROR/r121
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18:18:57  <Rubidium> Ammler: those .mq repositories are generated from scratch each time, right? So, does the 'identity' of the tip change as well?
18:21:46  <Ammler> yes, but you use findversion
18:21:58  <Ammler> and that uses the tag which doesn't change
18:22:18  <Ammler> on 32bpp we use a patch
18:23:07  <Rubidium> I rather prevent requesting the whole repository each time if I can do that easily
18:23:28  <Rubidium> but it seems I can't
18:23:29  <Ammler> well, just pull?
18:23:48  <Ammler> or what you mean?
18:24:05  <Ammler> we can also change the way the repo is made here
18:24:28  <Rubidium> buildbot has the nasty side-effect that it doesn't support 'listening' to multiple repositories, so I need to use trickery; i.e. push data to the CF
18:24:44  <Rubidium> or rather, push a request when it ought to be built
18:25:50  <Ammler> for testing, we need newer openttd changesets
18:26:04  <Ammler> but we could use different repos for openttd CF and testing
18:26:31  <Rubidium> but I'm getting another (better?) idea though, that doesn't need much downloading of sources
18:26:44  <Rubidium> but still uses findversion.sh
18:26:58  <Ammler> we could create a source bundle, btw.
18:28:06  <Rubidium> nah, that won't work for other places we fetch stuff from
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19:05:29  <Brot6> clientpatches: update from r22317 to r22683 done (6 warnings) - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/clientpatches/testing/r22683
19:09:59  <Rubidium> warnings? It's requiring some manual fixing before it even works right ;)
19:10:16  <Brot6> openttd-vehiclevars: update from r22682 to r22683 done - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/openttd-vehiclevars/testing/r22683
19:15:05  <Brot6> serverpatches: update from r22255 to r22683 done (10 warnings) - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/serverpatches/testing/r22683
19:17:24  <Brot6> 32bpp-ez-patches: compile of r22683 still failed (#2446) - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/32bpp-ez-patches/testing/ERROR/r22683
19:22:00  <Brot6> openttd-vehiclevars-demo: update from r22682 to r22683 done - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/openttd-vehiclevars-demo/testing/r22683
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19:37:13  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Support #2784: graphics template (Eddi) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2784#change-7125
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21:02:54  <Brot6> FISH - Feature #2646 (Closed): Graphics for 52t utility vessel (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2646#change-7126
21:04:44  <Brot6> FISH - Bug #2691 (Rejected): DevZone compile failed (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2691#change-7129
21:11:49  <Brot6> FISH - Feature #2886 (New): Set stats on Freshney freighter (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2886
21:12:55  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 663:9496afe3df6d: Change: improve graphics for Josephine Utility Vesel (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/fish/repository/revisions/9496afe3df6d
21:13:54  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 664:cc5da2d5ade4: Change: remove Cahaba Towboat (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/fish/repository/revisions/cc5da2d5ade4
21:13:54  <Brot6> FISH - Feature #2887 (New): Adjust menu order? (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2887
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22:26:15  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Revision 86:87feaf944b2f: same sprite mixup, but in currently unused... (Eddi) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets/repository/revisions/87feaf944b2f
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