Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 3rd August 2011:
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09:57:44  <Hirundo> morning folks
09:58:28  <planetmaker> moin Hirundo
10:03:56  <Terkhen> hi Hirundo
10:06:52  * Hirundo ponders how/if FS4408 should be handled in NML
10:12:00  <Hirundo> (MB nitpicking about imperial/metric units)
10:13:49  <planetmaker> ach, again?
10:14:38  <Hirundo> no not again, once was bad enough
10:14:41  <planetmaker> ah, no, old bug :-)
10:15:23  <Hirundo> Currently 1 hp in NML == 1 imperial hp != 1 metric hp
10:15:56  <Hirundo> Since I'd guess most users use metric, they'd think that NML is wrong
10:17:15  <Hirundo> Unfortunately both systems use 'hp' as unit
10:17:22  <planetmaker> personally I'd prefer metric hp, yes
10:17:38  <planetmaker> nml.cfg :-P
10:18:04  <planetmaker> though... that might not be a good choice
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10:18:11  <planetmaker> it'd need to be part of the source of a project
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10:21:39  <Hirundo> When making the distinction, hp(I) and hp(M) are used, but that's quite convoluted for such a minor point
10:22:22  <Terkhen> hp could be used as an alias for hp(M) then
10:23:13  <planetmaker> just hpI and hpM with hp == hpM
10:23:45  <planetmaker> or if you want hp_I and hp_M
10:23:54  <planetmaker> but... tedious to type ;-)
10:24:11  <Terkhen> yes :P
10:24:29  <Ammler> implement one and wait until someone reqeust the other...
10:24:54  <planetmaker> hpI is implemented. And I request the other :-P
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10:25:13  <Hirundo> FYI - I'm pretty sure t's possible to use parentheses in a unit as "km/h" works also
10:26:21  <Ammler> ah ok :-)
10:30:13  <planetmaker> Hirundo, yes, but typing parenthesis in units is... not something I prefer
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10:35:19  <Hirundo> agreed, I'll stick to hpI and hpM
10:39:38  <planetmaker> hm... kmh^(-1) :-p
10:40:35  <planetmaker> tiles/day might be useful :-)
10:40:49  <planetmaker> it'd be the preferred unit for V ;-)
10:43:50  <planetmaker> hm... how many km is a tile, if going by the speed of vehicles?
10:44:42  <planetmaker> I guess that was the number with the hundrets of km
10:47:53  <Ammler> 1km on country side and around 100m in town
10:54:36  <Terkhen> I suppose that the hp -> hpM change will break ogfx-rv and ogfx-trains
10:57:11  <FooBar> wait, what about this hpM?
10:58:07  <Hirundo> There is a slight (1.4%) difference between imperial and metric horsepower
10:58:27  <FooBar> hmmm, I noticed something like that
10:58:33  <Hirundo> internally imperial units are used, but most users use metric
10:58:55  <FooBar> But then I figured that it was due to the 10 hp rounding...
10:59:04  <Hirundo> No, that's for RVs only
10:59:22  <FooBar> Oh, well I was coding those :P
10:59:42  <Terkhen> since ogfx- "copy" default vehicles, they will need hpI :P
10:59:57  <Hirundo> Default vehicles have no hp, right?
11:00:13  <FooBar> I'd say keep hp as imperial units and add hpM for metric
11:00:52  <FooBar> Current sets either calculated to imperial themselves or just don't care
11:01:00  <Terkhen> they do, although the HP for standard road vehicles was not chosen correctly IMO
11:01:55  <FooBar> anyways, whatever you guys decide is best, let me know if I need to change Dutch Tram Set :P
11:04:08  <planetmaker> I don't mind if one of my newgrfs 'breaks' due to now using hp metric as default
11:04:26  <planetmaker> as I would have chosen wrongly most probably anyway ;-)
11:07:33  <Hirundo> I don't really mind either way (hpI or hpM as default), I use kW myself anyways :)
11:09:29  <planetmaker> :-)
11:11:06  <Hirundo> It's only when I looked up the conversion factor for kW, that I noticed the hpI/hpM thingy in the first place
11:11:55  <FooBar> oh, you can use kW now?
11:13:14  <FooBar> Also, what factor uses Google for "kW in hp"? I might have used the imperial one without even knowing...
11:14:40  <Terkhen> imperial suits google better :P
11:15:12  <Hirundo> FooBar: Not yet, need to finish and commit first
11:15:20  <FooBar> ah, cool
11:15:30  <FooBar> Terkhen: yes, I think so too
11:16:24  <Hirundo> yes, google is imperial, so that will be the default (hp=hpI, as is now)
11:19:08  <FooBar> in that case I don't have to do anything :)
11:54:49  <planetmaker> hm. The only major things still missing in NML are stations, houses (partially) and bridges, right, Hirundo ?
11:55:30  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Bug #2814 (Closed): Monorail and maglev food vans appear to have missing sprites (foobar) @
11:55:30  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Revision 682:49591a765fc6: Fix #2814: tropic food monolev wagon was missing (foobar) @
11:55:42  <planetmaker> :-O
11:55:50  <FooBar> I MENDED SOMETHING!
11:55:56  <planetmaker> that was really missing?
11:56:16  <FooBar> yes, it referenced some blue boxes rather than the actual sprites
11:56:42  <planetmaker> :-O
11:56:51  <Hirundo> planetmaker: canals and currencies come to mind, but those aren't really major in any sense
11:56:59  <planetmaker> currencies?
11:57:05  <planetmaker> I don't think it needs support
11:57:21  <planetmaker> canals... that's not minor IMHO :-)
11:57:35  <Hirundo> I don't know either about currencies, haven't ever looked at it
11:57:38  <planetmaker> But it's not as complex as houses and stations
11:57:54  <planetmaker> OpenTTD defines currencies... I'm pretty sure OpenTTD doesn't support newgrf currencies
11:58:06  <Hirundo> Canals have like 2 properties and vars, they need some documentation though
11:58:14  <planetmaker> yeah
11:58:25  <planetmaker> sounds like a thing which I can do :-P
11:58:53  <planetmaker> You do stations. I do canals. Each of us has done one major feature :-P
11:59:01  <planetmaker> sounds fair to me ;-)
11:59:19  <Hirundo> canal item IDs are used to define what the sprites are for
11:59:32  <planetmaker> cargoIDs?
11:59:47  <Hirundo> no, item ids (action0/3)
12:00:11  <Hirundo> and your definition of 'fair' must be .... awkward :P
12:00:11  <planetmaker> you mean prop. 09?
12:00:25  * planetmaker hugs Hirundo 
12:01:23  <planetmaker> he... but canals isn't as straight forward with those quirks as one might want to assume
12:01:31  <Hirundo> If you define item(FEAT_CANALS, some_name, 2), the number 2 tells openttd that it provides 'dikes'
12:01:36  <planetmaker> (but yes, no match for houses or stations)
12:01:59  <planetmaker> hm, does it? Where is that described?
12:02:24  <Hirundo> Somewhere on the wiki, probably action0 or 3
12:02:38  <planetmaker> isn't that what is mentioned in prop. 0x09?
12:02:40  <Webster> Title: Action0/Canals - GRFSpecs (at
12:03:02  <planetmaker> hm, I must have mis-understood that so far :-)
12:03:42  <Ammler> ttdpatch tiki seems down
12:03:47  <planetmaker> yes, it is
12:03:53  <planetmaker> But... it's obsolete
12:04:03  <Ammler> yes, but a lot links end there
12:04:14  <Hirundo> Prop 9 toggles between a 'basic' and an 'advanced' format or whatever
12:04:16  <planetmaker> :-) fix them to point to the tt-wiki
12:04:17  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Bug #2687: SH'8P' emits smoke in front of the engine (foobar) @
12:04:27  <Ammler> not necessary my links
12:04:31  <planetmaker> FooBar, have fun fixing that ;-)
12:04:48  <planetmaker> But by all means, please give it a try
12:04:50  <FooBar> I'm not. I'm just commenting on the issue, that's all
12:05:48  <planetmaker> :-)
12:06:30  <Ammler> if you wanna make ogfx release, it should happen this week, else you could wait for openttd 1.1.3
12:06:47  <planetmaker> nothing changed since the last one, Ammler
12:07:52  <Ammler> well, the bugfix fb just committed
12:08:32  <planetmaker> hm, true
12:08:44  <planetmaker> that'd be worth a release on its own
12:09:14  <planetmaker> and improved food processor
12:10:33  <planetmaker> Without irony: it's good that you keep an eye on OpenGFX releases, Ammler  :-)
12:11:00  <Ammler> :-P
12:11:15  <Ammler> I just mentioned it so you don't need to hurry again
12:11:36  <planetmaker> :-)
12:12:21  <planetmaker> but I wonder... I now have three heads, nogfx - that's ok. But changeset:   677:05c5f8a96c4d and 682:49591a765fc6 I don't understand
12:12:37  <planetmaker> FooBar, did you force-push a new head?
12:12:55  <FooBar> no?
12:13:14  <FooBar> there was already two heads before me
12:13:26  <Ammler> #2796 is not really clear about the issue
12:13:26  <Brot6> Ammler: #2796 is "OpenGFX - Bug #2796: copper ore wagons differ empty and loaded - #openttdcoop Development Zone"
12:13:33  <planetmaker> hm, no
12:13:41  <FooBar> I was about to look into that issue
12:13:59  <Ammler> planetmaker: the other head is nml2nfo
12:14:01  <FooBar> there are some more tropic wagons in the extra grf that could use their own sprites I think
12:14:22  <FooBar> planetmaker: I'll try and merge those heads
12:14:38  <Ammler> <-- you see it here
12:14:44  <Ammler> or you can pull bookmarks
12:14:46  <planetmaker> ah, no, don't FooBar :-)
12:14:55  <planetmaker> it was on purpose it seems, and yes
12:14:57  <FooBar> ok, I won't then
12:15:03  <Ammler> FooBar: there is a reason I didn't merge
12:15:19  <FooBar> I'll leave it as it is then
12:15:23  <planetmaker> FooBar, there's A LOT to do with trains
12:15:23  <Ammler> nml2nfo does not work
12:15:26  <FooBar> just hope I committed to the right branch :P
12:15:33  <planetmaker> yes, I think you did
12:15:37  <FooBar> ok good
12:15:46  <planetmaker> Ammler, it should be named branch IMHO
12:15:47  <Ammler>
12:15:48  <FooBar> nml2nfo worked here for the train thing I just did
12:15:49  <planetmaker> otherwise it's confusing
12:15:55  <Ammler> you guys really should learn to use graphs
12:16:04  <FooBar> I use graphs ;)
12:16:25  <FooBar> it's just that the graph doesn't show me why a branch is there and if it should be merged or not
12:16:27  <Ammler> planetmaker: if you tell me how you name a branch after push, I will
12:16:56  <planetmaker> Ammler, hg branch ;-)
12:16:58  <Ammler> hg pull -B
12:17:03  <Ammler> planetmaker: after commit
12:17:03  <planetmaker> set or show the current branch name
12:17:17  <Ammler> please try it first, then tell me :-P
12:17:24  <planetmaker> :-)
12:17:28  * planetmaker is a lazy fool
12:17:41  <Ammler> yes, not possible
12:18:04  <Ammler> but nice, we speak about :-P
12:18:38  <planetmaker> Well. I usually only work from cmd
12:18:51  <planetmaker> And there a hg heads doesn't mention anything about that head
12:19:11  <FooBar> try tortoise, that comes with a graph
12:19:26  <Ammler> planetmaker: it should mention things like (+1 heads)
12:19:28  <planetmaker> FooBar, thanks. I know it. I have it. I don't use it
12:19:32  <planetmaker> :-)
12:19:39  <Ammler> or use something like slog
12:19:53  <FooBar> planetmaker: ok, use whatever you're comfortable with
12:19:56  <planetmaker> Ammler, it mentions all heads fair enough
12:20:03  <planetmaker> but not how they relate :-)
12:20:10  <Ammler>
12:20:13  <planetmaker> FooBar, and that is quickest to use cmd :-)
12:20:25  <planetmaker> if I'd had to switch context for each... lengthy ;-)
12:20:32  <FooBar> Not for me, I forget the commands half the time :P
12:20:41  <Ammler> slog = glog -l10 --template "{branch}\t{rev}:{node|short}|{author|person} {desc|firstline}\n"
12:21:29  <planetmaker> cool. Thanks Ammler  :-)
12:22:04  <planetmaker> much better even than hg log ;-)
12:22:33  <Ammler> FooBar: 676:b6184f609175|Ammler Fix (r675): NML2NFO doesn't work with source bundles <-- why it doesn't work
12:23:17  <Ammler> imo, we should get ride of the manual source bundle building...
12:24:00  <planetmaker> you mean source bundles from the bundle_src ?
12:24:32  <Ammler> yes, the dependency check is not reproduceable
12:24:41  <Ammler> (for me)
12:26:34  <Ammler> planetmaker: a little glitch in my alias is that it seems not possible to make without a empty line
12:27:54  <Ammler> hmm, needed to show the splits
12:28:00  <Ammler> or merges
12:28:47  <Ammler> FooBar: the final idea of nml2nfo should be that if nml is available it should build the nfos from nml
12:29:27  <Ammler> but it should not fail, if nml isn't available, so how to handle that?
12:29:33  <FooBar> oh, ok. Now I set this thing in makefile.config
12:30:03  <FooBar> maybe just make nml a dependency for building OpenGFX
12:30:20  <planetmaker> That might eventually be done
12:30:31  <planetmaker> But I'd not go for it now - even when we already have a release of NML
12:31:53  <FooBar> for now I think what we have is pretty much close to the only option: if nml, rebuild some nfo's from source, otherwise use the versioned nfo's
12:32:13  <FooBar> maybe the only improvement is self-detection of nml rather than having to set the flag or what you call it
12:32:35  <Ammler> FooBar: that is not the issue
12:32:42  <Ammler> it still does not work
12:32:47  <Ammler> dependency check fails
12:33:24  <FooBar> ? Then I might not have used it completely yet. But my change in the nml file rebuilt the nfo just fine
12:34:16  <FooBar> I don't think I understand what's wrong. From what I've seen so far I can only conclude that it works :)
12:34:35  <Ammler> try it with source bundle
12:34:57  <andythenorth> meh
12:35:20  <FooBar> hmmm ok. That I obviously haven't tried :D
12:35:51  <FooBar> I see why you would want that to work :)
12:36:47  <Ammler> personally, I would not need to have it working with source bundle
12:36:59  <Ammler> but some here things, mercurial as dependency is bad
12:37:04  <Ammler> thinks*
12:37:54  <andythenorth> grr
12:37:59  <andythenorth> my new mac is now in my office
12:38:01  <andythenorth> but I am not
12:38:16  <andythenorth> it's probably just going to be annoying anyway
12:38:17  <FooBar> why are you not in your office?
12:38:24  <andythenorth> working at home
12:38:40  <FooBar> working he calls this :P
12:38:50  <Ammler> :-)
12:38:50  <andythenorth> lunch he calls this :P
12:38:58  <andythenorth> no commits from me today :P
12:39:18  <FooBar> lunch... sounds plausible given the time zone difference
12:39:44  <andythenorth> I am the boss...I gain nothing by shirking :(
12:40:06  <FooBar> anyways, how far is your house from your office?
12:40:10  <andythenorth> some
12:40:11  <andythenorth> not too far
12:40:23  <andythenorth> I just know that something won't work on the new mac
12:40:28  <andythenorth> which will be annoying
12:40:31  <FooBar> and do you have any means of transportation available, say a car?
12:40:35  <andythenorth> yes
12:40:37  <Ammler> oh well, it is just a mac
12:40:39  <andythenorth> some app I like will fail
12:40:44  <andythenorth> one mac is much like another
12:40:53  <andythenorth> they're all about the same
12:41:01  <andythenorth> just a box with keys on
12:41:11  <FooBar> well, then get your ass in the car and go to the office. Or don't complain :P
12:41:25  <andythenorth> complaining is one of my greatest arts
12:41:27  <FooBar> I can't really feel sorry for you right now :D
12:42:02  <andythenorth> I used to be *really* excited by new hardware
12:42:02  <Ammler> complaining is one thing, which works so nicely over irc
12:42:03  <FooBar> art you say? weren't you the one in search for a get rich quick scheme?
12:42:37  <FooBar> maybe you should contemplate something exploiting that skill
12:42:51  <andythenorth> does anyone else now have a sinking feeling when new hardware arrives?
12:42:59  <andythenorth> and software same
12:43:09  <FooBar> yes
12:43:22  <FooBar> It's always a relief if you find that it works
12:43:31  <andythenorth> it's just more stuff to go wrong  :\
12:44:14  <planetmaker> it's always a trade-off between improvement and time spent
12:44:24  <Ammler> with linux, you learn to life with troubles :-)
12:44:38  <planetmaker> but... give send your new mac to me if it bothers you ;-)
12:44:48  <andythenorth> if it's a PITA I'll do that
12:45:01  <andythenorth> Ammler: with apple, if you drink the kool-aid
12:45:05  <andythenorth> you expect it to just work
12:45:10  <andythenorth> mostly it used to
12:45:13  <planetmaker> my hardware cloning failed due to circular symlink deps :S
12:45:14  <FooBar> software not so much though. I hardly purchase any software. Last software I purchased was office 2010. And since that's a fixed office 2007 I expected that to work rather well. So for that particular software I was rather excited when it arrived in the mail
12:45:19  <planetmaker> Thus I still haven't installed 10.7
12:45:27  <Ammler> andythenorth: yes, because you are completely lost, if not
12:45:53  <andythenorth> expectations change
12:46:02  <andythenorth> I used to be pleased when my mac stopped crashing every hour
12:46:12  <andythenorth> now I'm cross if a single app has a small glitch of any kind
12:46:20  <planetmaker> andythenorth, it still does. But indeed they require you to buy new apps also every three to five years
12:46:27  <Ammler> on linux, a dummy can fix issues
12:46:43  * andythenorth -> going out
12:46:44  <andythenorth> bbl
12:46:48  <planetmaker> Ammler, on no single OS a dummy can fix anything ;-)
12:46:59  <FooBar> bye andythenorth, have fun working :)
12:47:01  <Ammler> mac issues aren't solveable for mac users
12:47:04  <andythenorth> he
12:47:18  * andythenorth recommends Ammler to people who have mac problems
12:47:21  <andythenorth> Ammler can fix them :)
12:47:23  <andythenorth> bye
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12:47:33  <Ammler> andythenorth: most probably better as a mac user ;-)
12:48:02  <Ammler> I also don't use windows since a long time now, but I can still solve the most windows issues better as my windows friends
12:48:22  <planetmaker> I'm increasingly loosing my windows knowledge
12:48:35  <Ammler> planetmaker: you don't need it you have linux knowledge
12:48:42  <planetmaker> no?
12:48:50  <Ammler> if*
12:49:15  <Ammler> windows knowledge is included with linux knowledge
12:49:27  <Ammler> if you lear to use linux, you can handle everything
12:50:01  <planetmaker> not exactly. Solving network issues and alike are much easier to solve, if you know where things are
12:50:03  <Ammler> I am much better windows user, since I don't use it anymore
12:50:11  <FooBar> heh P
12:50:14  <Ammler> :-)
12:50:31  <planetmaker> and I always get annoyed at windows when I have to use the ugly explorer to just "browse" the file system
12:50:38  <Ammler> FooBar: you might be a exception
12:50:55  <FooBar> probably
12:50:55  <planetmaker> I always need total commander installed :-P
12:51:19  <FooBar> I've became a much better Linux user since I've started poking around in it though
12:51:25  <planetmaker> :-)
12:51:34  <planetmaker> that usually helps
12:51:44  <Ammler> of course, there are some windows devs/experts, which know it better as me, I just meant I know it better as the average
12:52:17  * planetmaker suspects ALL people in this channel do
12:54:13  <FooBar> planetmaker: the "ugly explorer" is pretty much the same as Nautilus. But you probably don't use that either :P
12:54:22  <planetmaker> :-P
12:54:24  <Ammler> gnome shit
12:54:35  <planetmaker> I grew VERY accustomed to doing things in the command line ;-)
12:55:11  <Ammler> FooBar: most linux user have permanent a console windows
12:55:14  <planetmaker> I sometimes use konquerer when it comes to finding an image file in big directories or so
12:55:22  <planetmaker> because then it's easier
12:55:31  <planetmaker> Ammler, one? ;-)
12:55:40  <Ammler> well, I am used to tabs
12:55:44  <FooBar> planetmaker: try dir on windows then. It's basically what ls does on linux ;)
12:56:03  <planetmaker> Ammler, I currently have 7 windows - and probably each has tabs :-P
12:56:17  <Ammler> :-)
12:56:18  <planetmaker> FooBar, I know
12:56:31  <planetmaker> But the cmd window is smaller ;-)
12:56:40  <planetmaker> but maybe it resizes
12:56:43  <Ammler> FooBar: you can't the command shell from windows compare with example bash
12:56:45  <FooBar> you can make it longer
12:56:48  <FooBar> not wider though
12:56:50  <Ammler> compare*
12:56:55  <planetmaker> wider is the important piece ;-)
12:56:57  <Ammler> how is the windows shell called btw.?
12:57:01  <planetmaker> cmd
12:57:10  <Ammler> yes, but the name?
12:57:28  <Ammler> windows shell?
12:57:31  <FooBar> command prompt
12:57:48  <FooBar> newer windowses however also have something called "Windows PowerShell"
12:58:10  <FooBar> that's more linuxy, as it also understands for instance the ls command
12:58:48  <FooBar> and you can make it bigger :P
12:59:12  <FooBar> I've never used that though
12:59:13  <Ammler> well, I would install msys or cygwin quite fast on windows
13:01:50  <FooBar> yes, I think most Linux users who need to use Windows for some reason will do that
13:01:51  <FooBar> and then I mean the advanced Linux users. Not the ones who thought they could get a cheap deal by having linux on their netbook instead of windows
13:01:51  <FooBar> those are basically still windows users, just not using windows
13:02:19  <Brot6> Unable to connect to execution expired
13:04:10  <FooBar> in conclusion, everybody should just use the OS they think they're happy with
13:10:10  <Ammler> FooBar: I was such a linux user too
13:10:47  <FooBar> you might be an exception :P
13:11:02  <Ammler> no, I think, that is the way someone switched to linux
13:11:57  <Ammler> I mean such simple things like building a newgrf or openttd are good examples
13:12:05  <FooBar> Oh, ok
13:12:59  <Ammler> well, I used to maintain linux fileservers long before as I still used windows
13:13:20  <Ammler> linux desktops aren't that long really useable
13:13:42  <FooBar> well, I don't expect me to switch any time soon. There's still things I don't think have an equal counterpart on Linux.
13:13:58  <Ammler> just to get a working graphics driver was a pain 5 years ago
13:14:57  <Ammler> I run the windows parts with wine or vbox
13:15:15  <FooBar> Well, I hope linux makes it as a recognised alternative to Windows or MacOS
13:15:34  <Ammler> it is already quite some time
13:15:36  <FooBar> for the regular computer user that is
13:15:44  <planetmaker> I think it is already somewhat
13:15:54  <FooBar> it's getting there, but the computer manufacturers are holding back
13:16:14  <FooBar> i.e. you can hardly find preassembled computers with Linux
13:16:15  <Ammler> I do not feel like a pioneer
13:16:37  <planetmaker> that's quite true, but you can
13:16:56  <Ammler> FooBar: not needed, opposite to windows or mac, linux just works on every hardware
13:17:14  <Ammler> you don't need to search the whole internet to find your drivers :-)
13:17:49  <Ammler> setup linux=1h, setup windows=1d
13:17:56  <FooBar> I know, but the average computer purchaser isn't even offered a computer with linux
13:18:54  <FooBar> that's what I meant by "recognised alternative"
13:18:54  <Ammler> well, I will give back the license and got another 50€ voucher
13:19:02  <planetmaker> boah... I just checked hp's website. It's grossly appalling.
13:20:01  <FooBar> windows is getting better on the driver part though. Win7 can download most drivers from windows update
13:20:01  <Ammler> ok, thanks to linux :-)
13:20:01  <FooBar> I guess they implemented that after the Vista driver debacle
13:20:08  <FooBar> yes, I think that's indeed thanks to linux
13:22:00  <planetmaker> well, HP sells computers with SLE desktop
13:22:00  <planetmaker> but interestingly, only few
13:22:30  <FooBar> true, but walk into any computer store and they need to order it for you. But, "we have this alternative with Windows which is slightly overpriced in stock". Customer will take that because it doesn't want to go back
13:22:35  <Ammler> yeah, and those people join #suse and you need to explain them that it is not opensuse :-)
13:23:12  <FooBar> maybe that has something to do with the channel name as well...
13:23:14  <planetmaker> :-P
13:23:32  <planetmaker> FooBar, also simple: they earn also on windows. But not on linux
13:23:45  <FooBar> yes, that's also a problem
13:24:00  <planetmaker> or they don't (yet) understand how to earn on linux
13:24:17  <planetmaker> after all, they might just as well charge a setup fee for that; they don't have to give it away for free
13:24:41  <planetmaker> but it'd require them to have *some* expertise in that area
13:24:43  <FooBar> precisely. And still be cheaper than the same system with windows
13:24:52  <Ammler> sle is not cheaper as windows
13:25:27  <planetmaker> But I guess they could still make some master images and just mirror that on the HDDs they put in their linux computers. or whatever .-)
13:25:28  <FooBar> I didn't think SLE in particular, but some free linux distro in general
13:26:33  <Ammler> well, the people have no experience with linux, so for a windows setup pro, setup linux might be harder as setup windows
13:27:08  <Ammler> hmm, no, impossible
13:28:06  <FooBar> When I compare Win7 install and Fedora install they're probably equally easy. Just ploink the cd in and follow a wizard
13:28:34  <Ammler> except that you have setup a complete systme with fedora
13:28:43  <Ammler> with win, you have just the base os
13:29:16  <Ammler> theny ou need 1h for office, 1h for your photoshop, 1h / game
13:29:18  <Ammler> ....
13:30:33  <Ammler> hmm, are you able to upgrade a windows system?
13:30:45  <Ammler> I mean upgrade from vista to windows7?
13:30:53  <FooBar> yes, you can do an in place upgrade
13:31:19  <FooBar> It will then install 7 on top of Vista and keep the old vista files in a separate dir in case you lost something
13:33:25  <FooBar> however, you can only upgrade to the same or "more expensive" edition and both need to be the same language
13:34:47  <FooBar> but I recommend a clean install regardless. Windows is something that is best reinstalled once a year anyways.
13:35:27  <Ammler> or as it has very long live support, once for the system lifetime ;-)
13:35:59  <Ammler> I mean, xp is still supported, isn't?
13:36:08  <FooBar> yes, it is
13:36:35  <FooBar> 50% of windows users still use XP, so they sort of have to
13:36:58  <FooBar> Vista will not have such long support
13:37:20  <Ammler> yeah, you always need to skip a release
13:37:28  <FooBar> But then it's still better to reinstall every year. Gets the muck out.
13:37:53  <Ammler> with linux, you do new install but keep /home
13:38:29  <Ammler> but also distro upgrade works fine since some releases now
13:38:43  <FooBar> On Windows I always put "my documents" and suchlike on a separate partition. So that is also kept on reinstall
13:39:14  <FooBar> the equivalent of what would be /home I'd rather not keep. Lots of software put lots of crap in there
13:39:16  <Ammler> and as there is almost every half year a new release, you don't need to fresh install the same
13:39:31  <Ammler> well, /home is a bit more as just my documents ;-)
13:39:44  <Ammler> :-)
13:39:54  <FooBar> yes, I know. For that reason I don't want to keep it on windows reinstall ;)
13:40:43  <FooBar> Other than that, Windows can learn something from the package manager in Linux
13:41:11  <Ammler> well, the issue there is that it has no free software
13:41:47  <FooBar> true, it will need to become some sort of app store
13:41:50  <Ammler> and as soon as money is involved, it would become complicated
13:42:01  <Ammler> no mirrors and such
13:42:17  <FooBar> microsoft can mirror themselves
13:42:34  <FooBar> I'm sure windows update has mirrors just like that
13:42:43  <Ammler> of course
13:42:58  <Ammler> but those updates are free...
13:43:25  <FooBar> yes, they are
13:43:44  <FooBar> I just read that win8 will have a "Windows Store"
13:43:58  <Terkhen>
13:43:59  <Webster> Title: CoApp Home (at
13:44:07  <FooBar> so it seems they have learned from others once again :P
13:44:34  <Terkhen> nobody will use win8 anyways :)
13:45:17  <Terkhen> given that win7 works as good as you can expect from windows and most people still prefer winxp anyways...
13:45:46  <FooBar> win7 will probably be the new XP which they have to support for 10 years :P
13:45:58  <Terkhen> yes ;)
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13:46:20  <Terkhen> oh, that coapp thing has some packages now
13:46:31  * Terkhen doubts it will ever have gcc :P
13:46:36  <FooBar> If they want me to upgrade, they should release it within 12 months such that I still have a MSDNAA account and can get it for free :P
13:48:08  * FooBar wonders how long university keeps email addresses alive, so that I might be able to trick them into renewal when I've graduated...
13:49:07  <Terkhen> keep working for them :P
13:49:27  <FooBar> that could be one solution
13:50:25  <FooBar> but unlikely
13:51:08  <Terkhen> :)
14:16:02  <orudge> FooBar: I managed to do that after my final year of uni
14:16:14  <orudge> which was handy, as VS2010 came out about then
14:16:42  <FooBar> heh, yes I woudn't mind if I could pull something off like that :P
14:21:33  <FooBar> hmmm, water, fruit and rubber don't have separate sprites for monolev wagons
14:21:37  <FooBar> I never knew that
14:22:36  <planetmaker> yes... base sets are VERY limited
14:23:22  <orudge> tsk, all you newbies who started playing TTD in the TTDPatch or OpenTTD era :p
14:23:31  <orudge> I remember when 1 set of wagons was all we ever had! ;)
14:23:37  <orudge> 3 sets of road vehicles, though
14:24:29  <FooBar> I started in the TTD era ;)
14:24:47  <planetmaker> orudge: I certainly did start with TTD. maybe TTO, I don't recall ;-)
14:24:55  <orudge> ah, well
14:24:57  <orudge> that's OK then ;)
14:25:04  <orudge> I started with TTO (although TTD was out; I just didn't have it)
14:25:06  <planetmaker> I'm just spoiled meanwhile :-P
14:25:09  <orudge> mmh
14:25:16  <orudge> actually trying to play a game of TTD would be... difficult, I think
14:25:33  <FooBar> making it work is the first obstacle
14:25:42  <orudge> well, that's relatively straightforward, really
14:25:51  <orudge> one could also substitute "TTD" for "OpenTTD 0.1" in this case
14:26:50  <FooBar> ok, but apart from that I don't think I want to try
14:27:52  <FooBar> I have less important things to do than playing TTD
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14:31:20  * andythenorth is +1 mac
14:31:24  <andythenorth> bets on whether it boots?
14:31:35  <FooBar> define "boot"
14:31:51  <andythenorth> powers on + boots correctly into OS X
14:31:57  <FooBar> then no bets :P
14:32:01  <andythenorth> normally I buy refurb macs.  they're (a) cheaper by far (b) not likely to be DOA
14:32:08  <andythenorth> new macs are worryingly often DOA
14:32:34  <andythenorth> we've had problems with about 3 out of maybe 60
14:32:39  <andythenorth> which is 5% :o
14:35:45  <planetmaker> DOA?
14:36:25  <andythenorth> dead on arrival
14:36:27  <andythenorth> either won't boot
14:36:31  <andythenorth> or critical hardware failure
14:36:50  <andythenorth> we've had dead DVD-rom, dead wireless, and logic board trouble
14:37:09  <andythenorth> means a trip back to apple
14:37:21  <andythenorth> the refurbs tend to be already fixed + have been bench tested by a technician
14:37:38  <andythenorth> never had a problem with refurb, plus, 20% cheaper :)
14:37:42  <planetmaker> interesting.
14:37:49  <planetmaker> 5% sounds like a lot
14:37:58  <andythenorth> it is
14:38:39  <andythenorth>
14:38:40  <Webster> Title: Apple fourth best among build quality study for portables (at
14:45:52  <andythenorth> hmm
14:46:00  <andythenorth> on benchmarks the new mac rinses the old one
14:46:10  <andythenorth> nearly twice the benchmark performance
14:46:23  <andythenorth> despite 2.53ghz versus 2.7ghz and same amount of RAM
14:47:51  <planetmaker> probably i7 vs. core2duo or so
14:48:08  <andythenorth> yup
14:48:22  <andythenorth> wonder if this will make pixels faster
14:48:43  <andythenorth> if I didn't use 8 year old photoshop in rosetta mode, that *might* make pixels faster :P
15:02:19  <planetmaker> :-D
15:02:44  <planetmaker> any reason to not use a new(er) version of PS, or the CS?
15:06:19  <planetmaker> (except of course the €€€ reason) ;-)
15:09:34  <andythenorth> £££
15:09:38  <andythenorth> plus lazy
15:15:54  <planetmaker> probably good decision. Installer just crashed :-P
15:17:21  * andythenorth wonders how many things will break by moving to snow leopard :(
15:17:39  <planetmaker> from Lion?
15:17:54  <planetmaker> err... Leopard?
15:18:10  <andythenorth> 10.5 > 10.6
15:18:15  <andythenorth> forget 10.7 :P
15:18:17  <andythenorth> too expensive
15:18:26  <planetmaker> :-)
15:18:50  <Lakie> Isn't 10.7 a  download for 10.6 users?
15:18:56  <planetmaker> nah, I want to install it on my external HDD to shut the mouths of those whining kids
15:19:24  <planetmaker> and I don't like openttd to crash too obviously there
15:19:27  <andythenorth> it's 
15:19:37  <andythenorth> but my photoshop, word, and excel will all stop working
15:19:50  <andythenorth> amongst other things :P
15:22:45  <Lakie> Don't they future-proof the apps?
15:25:08  <andythenorth> ha
15:25:42  <andythenorth> after you've drunk the kool-aid, it all seems normal ;)
15:26:28  <andythenorth> my 32-bit IBM/Moto PPC, big-endian app from 2003 doesn't work on my 64 bit, little-endian intel chip?
15:26:29  <andythenorth> :o
15:26:36  <andythenorth> the horror
15:26:46  <andythenorth> I just won't upgrade
15:26:49  <andythenorth> that'll learn em
15:30:11  <planetmaker> you're optimistic
15:30:14  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Code Review #1960 (Closed): shorter tropical rail wagons (foobar) @
15:30:14  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Bug #2796 (Closed): copper ore wagons differ empty and loaded (foobar) @
15:30:14  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Revision 683:4e5227ad7601: Feature: update tropic rail wagons (closes #1960, #2796) (foobar) @
15:49:39  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Revision 684:c6b7eaed9ab6: Feature: new rubber wagon sprites to match rail wagons rathe... (foobar) @
15:55:29  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Bug #2537 (Closed): Graphical glitch at Depot entrance (foobar) @
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16:22:14  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Bug #2112 (Assigned): Houses' foundation sprites (foobar) @
16:22:30  <FooBar> funny, the page hasn't loaded here yet
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17:19:59  <Brot6> opengfx: update from r681 to r684 done -
17:21:22  <planetmaker> :-)
17:21:28  <Brot6> heqs: update from r610 to r611 done -
17:22:42  <Brot6> Following repos didn't need a nightlies update: ogfx-trains (r245), narvs (r37), bros (r52), ogfx-industries (r122), firs (r2233), ailib-tile (r16), foobarstramtracks (r23), transrapidtrackset (r28), 2cctrainset (r750), cets (r114), ailib-list (r32), opensfx (r97), ttdviewer (r34), worldairlinersset (r672), openmsx (r97), basecosts (r25), nutracks (r202), nml (r1564), 32bpp-extra (r40), manindu (r7), newgrf_makefile (r305),
17:22:42  <Brot6> ailib-direction (r17), ailib-common (r21), snowlinemod (r49), dutchtramset (r87), ai-admiralai (r75), swisstowns (r22), metrotrackset (r56), spanishtowns (r10), frenchtowns (r6), grfpack (r279), ogfx-rv (r107), fish (r683), ogfx-landscape (r71), ttrs (r36), ogfx-trees (r51), swedishrails (r203), grfcodec (r832), ai-aroai (r39), german-townnames (r34), smts (r19), chips (r143), belarusiantowns (r8), indonesiantowns (r41), ailib-string
17:22:44  <Brot6> (r29), airportsplus (r107), comic-houses (r71)
17:22:55  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 1565:d9bb01b06bcc: Add: Several units for power and weight, and d... (Hirundo) @
17:22:55  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 1566:628d1b635f36: Fix: Train running cost CB didn't work. (Hirundo) @
17:23:27  <Brot6> narvs: compile of r37 still failed (#2789) -
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17:25:13  <Hirundo> planetmaker: I have written an example train grf, currently residing in my examples/train directory
17:25:34  <Hirundo> I'd like to include it in the regression test too, how to best do that?
17:26:03  <Hirundo> Note that it needs some separate langfiles also
17:26:25  <planetmaker> Hirundo: use the common lang file for all regression tests
17:26:29  <planetmaker> they share the same one
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17:27:32  <Hirundo> With 10 examples you'd end up with 100 strings or so, that's not ideal
17:27:57  <Hirundo> I'd like the example code to be quite accessible, it's likely one of the first things a user looks at
17:28:02  <planetmaker> that's how it works currently. And how many strings do you want per regression test?
17:28:17  <planetmaker> They can share the description even, just the name needs to be different
17:28:40  <planetmaker> whether the train in the test grf is called "bullocks coal truck" is of no importance
17:28:55  <planetmaker> you're also aware of regression test 010?
17:29:10  <planetmaker> it's already a train grf of sorts
17:31:29  <Hirundo> This is far more extensive, it uses every property and at least a dozen callbacks
17:31:51  <planetmaker> yexo's stance was: regression tests should not be extensive
17:32:05  <planetmaker> they should test one single thing at most. I.e. regression != example
17:32:21  <planetmaker> and gave already the 010 as bad example
17:32:36  <planetmaker> I tend to agree. Regressions are not examples
17:33:35  <planetmaker> hm, no he gave 006 (the tram) as bad, but nvm.
17:37:25  <Hirundo> I tend to agree with Yexo on that point, currently regression is a bit of a mess
17:38:37  <Hirundo> It might also be useful though, to have a 'train' regression test that uses every property, variable or callback available to trains
17:41:01  * Hirundo ponders
17:47:06  <V453000> hello from fedora, natively this time :D
17:49:46  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Revision 685:3d119fdc7d9e: Fix #1279: swapped first two sprites of 1524-1529 small flats (foobar) @
17:52:34  <FooBar> hmmm, 1279 wasn't right. How did I come to that :S
17:52:40  <Ammler> V453000: webchat :-P
17:52:48  <V453000> mhm :P
17:53:18  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Bug #2112 (Closed): Houses' foundation sprites (foobar) @
17:54:01  <V453000> is that prohibited on linux? :D
17:54:18  <Ammler> not necessary, it has quite nice clients
17:54:28  <Ammler> depending on your DE
17:54:45  <Ammler> gnome or kde?
17:54:57  <Ammler> Fedora looks like Gnome
17:55:00  <V453000> gnome I think
17:55:20  <Terkhen> use a console irc client :P
17:55:21  <Ammler> then browser might indeed be good choice :-)
17:56:24  <V453000> :d
17:56:42  <V453000> dunno I like it :)
17:56:55  <Ammler> already "yum install openttd" done?
17:58:22  <Ammler> how well is mp3 and friends supported on Fedora?
18:01:50  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 1567:4de9a2be5051: Add: Example train NewGRF. (Hirundo) @
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18:04:30  <Ammler> <-- btw. nice download help to iframe include
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18:09:21  <planetmaker> ah, that's probably a good idea that way, Hirundo :-)
18:12:35  <V453000> hmm, what do I need to be allowed to mkdir in etc/yum ?
18:13:04  <Ammler> su to root
18:13:07  <Ammler> or use sudo
18:13:54  <Ammler> but why should you mkdir?
18:14:02  <Ammler> the directory should already exist
18:14:08  <V453000> it doesnt
18:14:18  <Ammler> I would bet quite much, it does
18:14:32  <Ammler> maybe you need to be root to access it
18:15:07  <Ammler> it is not "etc/yum", it is "/etc/yum..."
18:16:18  <planetmaker> :-)
18:16:28  <planetmaker> most often it's better to just use sudo
18:17:30  <V453000> it wasnt in /etc/yum
18:17:42  <V453000> I just created it successfully
18:21:06  <andythenorth> Ammler: do you have to be root to see some of the filesystem? :o
18:22:54  <V453000> Ammler: complete! :D
18:23:41  <Ammler> andythenorth: possible, of course
18:24:07  <Ammler> linux is not just for gamers, some use it also on secure systems :-P
18:24:54  <Ammler> I do not know Fedora that well, on suse, you can view the most as common user
18:25:44  <V453000> what in general is a good path to save your data to in linux?
18:26:00  <V453000> desktop? >:D
18:26:14  <Ammler> why not
18:26:23  <Ammler> anyway, do nothing as root
18:26:29  <Ammler> except you need
18:26:38  <Ammler> and save everything to your home
18:27:21  <V453000> right :)
18:27:26  <V453000> I know, root is danger :)
18:27:57  <planetmaker> the best path is usually ~
18:27:59  <planetmaker> ;-)
18:28:02  <planetmaker> which is your home ;-)
18:28:09  <V453000> arr :)
18:33:44  <andythenorth> Ammler: I guess I'm used to using my OS as an admin, not a restricted user
18:34:03  <andythenorth> afaik I can see everything root / wheel can
18:34:19  <andythenorth> except stuff marked for read only by other admin
18:35:52  <Ammler> andythenorth: yep, that is why linux users don't need to fear viruses etc.
18:36:05  <andythenorth> never say that :P
18:36:14  <andythenorth> most OS are only one stray click away from Boom!
18:36:42  <Ammler> nah, I can say that quite safely about linux
18:36:50  <andythenorth> he
18:37:08  <andythenorth> only if you know you'll never click 'confirm' when you meant to click 'cancel' or such :D
18:37:21  <andythenorth> basically wrt untrusted files
18:37:50  <andythenorth> you're still one untrusted file or removable device away from DoS / data loss
18:37:58  <andythenorth> even if your OS would be recoverable
18:38:06  <Ammler> I can confirm as user as much as I like
18:38:29  <andythenorth> hmm
18:38:35  <andythenorth> I'll take you at your word :)
18:38:46  <andythenorth> I know we don't treat our FreeBSD production boxes as secure
18:38:50  <Ammler> that is the point about user - root
18:39:17  <andythenorth> so if you download a binary, how do you execute it?
18:39:23  <Ammler> as user
18:39:28  <andythenorth> do you create a special new user for it, with a sandbox?
18:39:34  <Ammler> so my system doesn't need to fear something
18:39:56  <Ammler> and you download and execute binaries quite seldom
18:40:06  <andythenorth> do you look at images and such?
18:40:11  <andythenorth> or movies etc
18:40:22  <Ammler> they can't hurt on linux
18:40:42  <andythenorth> where do you run them from?
18:40:47  <andythenorth> ~ or equivalent?
18:40:51  <andythenorth> or a sandbox / jail?
18:41:04  <Ammler> well, sandbox if you like
18:41:24  <Ammler> but I don't make sandbox specially for anything
18:41:42  <andythenorth> what would happen if you ran malware posing as say .jpeg?
18:41:49  <Ammler> not possible
18:41:49  <V453000> OH there we go
18:41:55  <V453000> Ammler, there is a typo in the link
18:41:57  <Ammler> andythenorth: that's the point
18:42:08  <V453000> I suppose it is meant to be yum.repos.d
18:42:12  <andythenorth> Ammler: do you scan all files for executable code first?
18:42:14  <V453000> not yum/repis.d
18:42:21  <Ammler> andythenorth: not necessary :-)
18:42:25  <V453000> *yum/repos.d is written in the link
18:42:31  * andythenorth is learning
18:42:42  <V453000> I just found yum.repos.d since some other guide pointed to that
18:42:50  <andythenorth> Ammler: what causes it to be not necessary?
18:42:55  <Ammler> andythenorth: I always thought, such things do only hurt windows
18:43:16  <andythenorth> they only hurt the OS that they're a valid attack vector for
18:43:25  <andythenorth> their are attack vectors for numerous *nix
18:43:33  <Ammler> please show me such file for linux
18:43:53  <andythenorth> concept empiricism :)
18:43:55  <Ammler> I am using linux just around 10 years now, never saw something like that
18:44:05  <andythenorth> you won't see it until it's too late :D
18:44:18  <Ammler> no, I don't see it because it isn't possible
18:44:24  <Ammler> you can't do such file for linux
18:44:48  <Ammler> but of course it is easy to hack a linux
18:45:01  <andythenorth> Ammler: linux is just code yes / no :o
18:45:05  <Ammler> yes
18:45:09  <andythenorth> it's not magic :)
18:45:48  <Ammler> again, show me such a bad file
18:46:04  <Ammler> you sound like you experienced something like that
18:46:20  <andythenorth> if you execute malware as 'ammler' you can still lose part of userland - including other running apps, and your files
18:46:29  <andythenorth> you might not lose the kernel or the root filesystem
18:46:31  <Ammler> yep, of course
18:46:44  <Ammler> but on windows, you lose the whole system
18:46:52  <Ammler> or on osx
18:47:05  <andythenorth> dubious claim
18:47:06  <Ammler> since you say, you run stay as root
18:47:45  <andythenorth> I'm not familiar with windows, but I thought that the design of Windows from NT onwards was significantly more secure
18:47:55  <andythenorth> the implementation might not be .... but the design was afaik
18:48:05  <Ammler> yep, now you make a kind of sudo
18:48:19  <andythenorth> OS X you'd lose about the same as any other *nix
18:48:22  <andythenorth> basically userland
18:48:24  <planetmaker> Ammler: on OSX there is no root
18:48:30  <andythenorth> well there is
18:48:36  <planetmaker> for every root-requirement you use sudo
18:48:40  <andythenorth> but you have to enable it with directory tools or such
18:48:48  <planetmaker> or the OS asks you for the root password
18:48:52  <andythenorth> but if you sudo then run malware, you're just as screwed :)
18:49:01  <V453000> shall I download the noarch or src version of nml?
18:49:42  <planetmaker> but OSX makes it slightly easier to mix user land and root land
18:49:57  <Ammler> V453000: you should use yum
18:50:06  <V453000> ah, so just through the commands
18:50:06  <planetmaker> as for normal installs the system just asks your for the PW and the unaware user might just go for 'here it is' and then the malheur happend
18:50:08  <Ammler> then you have resolved the dependencies automatically
18:50:18  <Ammler> after that I would recommend to use nml repo
18:50:21  <planetmaker> it's slightly more obvious (to me) how it works on suse
18:50:37  <V453000> so doing just cd /etc/yum/repos.d/ wget yum install nml is enough, right?
18:51:00  <Ammler> andythenorth: you seriously would do "sudo unknownbin" ?
18:51:05  <andythenorth> yes
18:51:10  <Ammler> well then :-D
18:51:23  <planetmaker> andythenorth: why would you do that?
18:51:27  <andythenorth> those were someone's instructions for installing nml for starters
18:51:31  <andythenorth> when I was stuck due to python issues
18:51:34  <Ammler> but you do not think, that is a matter of os?
18:51:42  <andythenorth> I was quite grumpy that I had to do that at the time
18:51:43  <planetmaker> who instructed to do that?
18:51:46  <andythenorth> don't recall
18:51:47  <Ammler> the issue is that windows does that without you knowing it
18:51:57  <Ammler> or maybe osx does that too
18:52:01  <andythenorth> planetmaker: lots of installers ask for OS X admin password
18:52:08  <planetmaker> andythenorth: I know
18:52:14  <andythenorth> do you itch every time?
18:52:30  <planetmaker> because /Applications is the same as linux' /bin or /usr/bin - which is root writable only
18:52:31  <andythenorth> every time I do it, I think 'so this is how you get pwned'
18:52:47  <planetmaker> andythenorth: I certainly don't install every app
18:53:06  <andythenorth> the ones that install kext bother me :P
18:53:12  <andythenorth> I have no idea what some of them do
18:53:16  <planetmaker> kext?
18:53:21  <andythenorth> kernel extensions
18:53:24  <planetmaker> ah
18:53:37  <andythenorth> could easily be keystroke logger, or IP traffic sniffer
18:53:45  <Ammler> installing something outside of ~ is very seldom wihtout the package manager
18:53:50  <Ammler> almost impossible
18:54:03  <andythenorth> or even video / screen capture - but then we'd see insane disk space bloat + cpu use
18:54:57  <planetmaker> andythenorth: how do I know whether an application is a kernel extension, normal or malicious?
18:55:15  <andythenorth> read the source :P
18:55:26  <andythenorth> you basically have no idea
18:55:33  <andythenorth> it would be an easy attack vector
18:56:02  <andythenorth> there's already drive-by malware for OS X
18:56:25  <andythenorth> I got hit by drive-by download, but I'd already turned off Safari's stupid 'open files' setting
18:56:49  <andythenorth> I don't check md5 sums or anything to see if a binary is what it says it is
18:57:00  <andythenorth> nor do >large number of mac users I guess
18:57:28  <andythenorth> just build a malicious ottd and you'd get me :P
18:57:52  <andythenorth> write a
18:57:56  <andythenorth> call it
18:57:59  <andythenorth> I'd run it :P
18:58:02  <Ammler> would be useless, if I would infect such a binary, I wouls also be sure the md5sum is updated ;-)
18:58:15  <andythenorth> Ammler: you are very diligent
18:58:37  <andythenorth> do you check md5 sums on installs by package manager?
18:59:11  <Ammler> those are signed
18:59:38  <Ammler> installing rpms is much more secure as installing from upstream
18:59:47  <andythenorth> it would be an interesting attack vector
19:00:15  <planetmaker> all that mostly is social engineering: making people believe it's trustworthy while it's not
19:00:17  <andythenorth> assume that someone controlling the distro for a module decided to make some extra cash
19:00:21  <Ammler> I could infect the openttd binaries for suse :-)
19:00:27  <andythenorth> + that any reviewers had a slow day
19:00:52  <andythenorth> if you quietly infected a small, commonly used, library, you could probably gain quite alot
19:01:03  <planetmaker> <-- like that
19:01:04  <Webster> Title: The backdooring of SquirrelMail [] (at
19:01:06  <andythenorth> probably wouldn't be found for months/years
19:01:34  <andythenorth> planetmaker: exactly :)
19:01:44  <planetmaker> ah, open source is hard to stay undetected for years
19:01:50  <planetmaker> but yes, still
19:02:26  <andythenorth> many eyes makes shallow bugs - true, but there aren't *that* many competent eyes looking
19:02:27  <andythenorth> :D
19:03:55  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Bug #2406 (Closed): CS4000 - Arctic Sprites (foobar) @
19:03:55  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Revision 686:b96817809025: Fix #2406: new sprites for arctic CS4000 (foobar) @
19:04:46  <planetmaker> that is quite true, andythenorth...
19:05:13  <V453000> uhm ... is there any way to install gimp with some one-click installer ?
19:05:20  <planetmaker> yum install gimp?
19:05:33  <planetmaker> that's what a package manager is for...
19:05:46  <Brot6> clientpatches: update from r22711 to r22712 done (6 warnings) -
19:05:53  <andythenorth> I should learn to use macports properly
19:06:04  <andythenorth> it always whines at me about package definitions being out of date
19:06:05  <planetmaker> sudo port install gimp ;-)
19:06:13  <planetmaker> sudo port selfupdate
19:06:20  <andythenorth> ^ another place I distrust sudo :P
19:06:23  <planetmaker> that helps a lot ;-)
19:06:37  <planetmaker> well, it's the same as you dragging an app to the app folder
19:06:52  <planetmaker> same extend of modification
19:07:05  <andythenorth> except that if sudo port install MyNastyApp it can execute
19:07:11  <andythenorth> unless ports sandboxes it?
19:07:26  <V453000> oh
19:07:28  <planetmaker> no, but port never executes a programme. It only installs it
19:07:29  <V453000> what the :D
19:07:43  <Ammler> V453000: just remember, never install something without yum
19:07:46  <andythenorth> so there would have to be a bug in ports for that to be an attack vector
19:07:54  <V453000> oh, that sounds valuable, thanks Ammler :d
19:07:57  <planetmaker> yes. A compromised ports would do the trick
19:07:58  <V453000> :)
19:08:19  <Ammler> and yum is maybe the only reason for root :-)
19:08:20  <planetmaker> my macports downloads also all the sources and then compiles the stuff
19:08:29  <planetmaker> though I think one can get binary for some things
19:08:32  <andythenorth> we should have a bet on who gets compromised first in this channel
19:08:42  <andythenorth> I'll put €0.5 on the table
19:08:46  <andythenorth> dunno who to choose though
19:08:54  <andythenorth> betting on myself is too easy to rig
19:08:54  <planetmaker> well. I know for sure that our lab computers get compromised regularily ;-)
19:09:15  <andythenorth> I'm probably compromised now
19:09:25  <andythenorth> according to a leaflet through my door I have all the signs
19:09:29  <andythenorth> 'broadband slow'
19:09:34  <andythenorth> 'computer running slower'
19:09:39  <andythenorth> 'applications crashing'
19:09:43  <andythenorth> 'wifi dropping out'
19:09:53  <Ammler> andythenorth: I could place everything I have around ;-)
19:09:56  <andythenorth> 'For £30 / hour we'll remove all viruses and spyware'
19:10:21  <Ammler> I invest £0 for virus fighting
19:10:27  <andythenorth> Ammler: I actually do place that bet 24 hours a day
19:10:35  <andythenorth> mostly the bet is on FreeBSD and some people I employ
19:10:39  <andythenorth> although some of it is Linux
19:10:41  <Brot6> openttd-vehiclevars: update from r22711 to r22712 done -
19:10:45  <Ammler> well, I do make backups
19:10:57  <planetmaker> you also run FreeBSD at your company?
19:10:59  <andythenorth> in theory, if we screw up badly enough, I go to prison && go bankrupt
19:11:16  <andythenorth> so I take an interest in attack vectors :P
19:11:20  <V453000> wow, that is quite awesome
19:11:21  <Ammler> FreeBSD is of course not that secure as linux :-P
19:11:22  <planetmaker> :-)
19:11:29  <V453000> =D
19:11:29  <planetmaker> Ammler: not?
19:11:43  <Ammler> just fooling :-P
19:11:54  <planetmaker> you should argue with fjb ;-)
19:12:11  <Ammler> well, FreeBSD is a bit related to OSX, afaik
19:12:20  <V453000> is there any list of programs that yum knows?
19:12:24  <planetmaker> they have common ancestors
19:12:29  <planetmaker> yum list?
19:12:36  <planetmaker> or something
19:12:39  <Ammler> V453000: it is easier to list programs, yum doesn't know
19:12:58  <V453000> right :D
19:13:09  <planetmaker> yep, ammler's right there. That's the BIG comfort
19:13:14  <V453000> now that is fun
19:13:24  <planetmaker> you bascially can install 99.5% of the needed things with the package manager
19:13:28  <FooBar> V453000: go to Applications > System Tools > Add/Remove Software. That will give you a list
19:13:40  <andythenorth>
19:13:41  <Ammler> well, I have suse in mind and transplant that to Fedora, but that should be ok
19:13:41  <Webster> Title: FreeBSD - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at
19:13:42  <planetmaker> only if you really need development versions you might need a way around
19:14:29  <andythenorth> Ammler:
19:14:30  <Webster> Title: Most Reliable Hosting Company Sites in February 2011 | Netcraft (at
19:15:28  <Ammler> :-P
19:15:34  <Brot6> serverpatches: update from r22711 to r22712 done (10 warnings) -
19:15:38  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Bug #2421 (Closed): MJS 1000 Sprites for Arctic (foobar) @
19:15:38  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Revision 687:2761b8f558a2: Fix #2421: new sprites for arctic MJS 1000 (foobar) @
19:15:43  * andythenorth ponders
19:15:49  <andythenorth> chat
19:15:52  <andythenorth> or code
19:17:26  <andythenorth> or migrate my mac
19:17:28  <andythenorth> latter
19:17:29  <andythenorth> bbl
19:17:31  *** andythenorth has quit IRC
19:17:43  <Brot6> 32bpp-ez-patches: compile of r22712 still failed (#2446) -
19:21:25  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Revision 688:1b44e3268b1f: Feature #2405: new sprites for arctic CS2400 (DanMacK, previ... (foobar) @
19:22:57  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Code Review #2405 (Closed): CS2400-Arctic Sprites (foobar) @
19:23:20  <V453000> right, so now that I have Fedora finally, I suppose I should do the guides again, installing tortoise etc, right?
19:24:48  <Ammler> well, you should do at least the linux part
19:24:59  *** andythenorth has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
19:25:03  <Ammler> and yes, tortoisehg is also available for linux
19:26:09  <andythenorth> hmm
19:26:16  <andythenorth> do I *need* 8GB RAM
19:26:17  <andythenorth> ?
19:26:27  <Ammler> around 2 is fine enough
19:26:45  <Ammler> but for graphics work, it could be good to have more
19:26:47  <V453000> yum yum yum
19:26:53  <andythenorth> it's not like I hit swap very often
19:27:00  <andythenorth> although photoshop is greedy
19:27:07  <andythenorth> ho
19:27:19  <andythenorth> do you guys browse the forums on the default theme?
19:27:34  <andythenorth> I turned it off years ago
19:27:38  <andythenorth> isn't it quaint
19:27:48  <FooBar> I use TTD theme
19:27:57  <FooBar> if that's what you mean by default, then yes :)
19:28:09  <Ammler> is there another?
19:28:13  <FooBar> default could also be the thing that comes with phpbb by default
19:29:22  <andythenorth> I use silver-something
19:29:33  <FooBar> subsilver?
19:29:36  <andythenorth> probly
19:29:48  * andythenorth is reduced to irc while he migrates computers
19:29:55  <andythenorth> I can't draw or code anything :P
19:29:58  <FooBar> I believe that's what it was called when I played with phpbb
19:30:04  <FooBar> but that's years ago
19:30:13  <Ammler> oh, you see us as reduction :'-(
19:36:13  <V453000> is it just me or are all the guides just for windows? :D
19:36:54  <Ammler> because linux is selfexplaining
19:37:00  <frosch123> [21:26] <andythenorth> do I *need* 8GB RAM <- are you running any vms?
19:37:02  <Ammler> but don't hesitate to ask
19:37:28  <planetmaker> andythenorth: do you do excessive image processing?
19:37:33  <V453000> selfexplaining ... I have no clue what to do :D
19:37:50  <Ammler> then you might be done
19:38:26  <V453000> probably not I just downloaded the stuff you sent me the link to and tortoisehg
19:38:34  <V453000> dont even tell me that is all
19:38:36  <V453000> :D
19:38:46  <Ammler> I hope, you used yum for all?
19:38:51  <V453000> sure thing
19:39:14  <Ammler> then yes, you are done
19:39:27  <Ammler> now do as user a hg clone <yourproject>
19:39:41  <Ammler> with Gonsole
19:39:46  <V453000> :D
19:39:51  <V453000> ok
19:39:55  <Ammler> or how that is called on gnome
19:40:10  <V453000> terminal you mean
19:40:10  <Ammler> maybe Terminal
19:40:14  <Ammler> :-)
19:40:46  <planetmaker> you first might want to create an openttd subdir - in which all openttd related bullshit goes
19:40:53  <andythenorth> frosch123: no vms
19:40:54  <planetmaker> For some reason it's one of my biggest subdirs...
19:40:58  <V453000> :D
19:41:10  <andythenorth> planetmaker: me too
19:41:26  <andythenorth> if you included my insane multiple checkouts of svn as well :P
19:41:35  <planetmaker> of course I do :-)
19:41:36  <andythenorth> it's about 4GB
19:44:21  <V453000> no repository found in /home/V453000 (.hg not found!)
19:44:23  <Ammler> you still have svn checkouts?
19:44:26  <V453000> how do I create that?
19:44:42  <Ammler> what did you try to run?
19:45:03  <V453000> hg pull -u
19:45:15  <Ammler> cd to the project first :-)
19:45:35  <andythenorth> why is Safari downloading faster on a new mac
19:45:40  <V453000> oh
19:45:42  <andythenorth> still the same wifi / isp :P
19:45:42  <V453000> x.x
19:45:50  <andythenorth> probably user error
19:45:57  <Ammler> or better cache handling
19:45:58  <andythenorth> "I think it's faster, therefore it must be"
19:46:04  <andythenorth> true
19:46:20  <andythenorth> I don't trust the IO on my old laptop
19:46:26  <andythenorth> I think the disk is slowly dying
19:46:32  <V453000> hmm
19:46:46  <V453000> do I need to create some special directory for that?
19:46:53  <andythenorth> oh
19:46:57  <andythenorth> also it's a whole new OS :P
19:47:00  <V453000> or do whatever else before using pull
19:47:06  <andythenorth> planetmaker: so 10.6 is *faster* than 10.5? :O
19:47:33  <Ammler> V453000: [21:39] <Ammler> now do as user a hg clone <yourproject>
19:48:34  <V453000> yeah
19:48:57  <V453000> I did hg clone http:/
19:49:23  <V453000> oh wait
19:49:51  <V453000> no changes found
19:49:58  <V453000> guess that is correct when pulling :)
19:50:08  <planetmaker> yup. Or can be :-)
19:52:28  <V453000> Pull-Merge-Push what does this mean?
19:52:45  <V453000> or ... what does this substitute [possible merge]
19:54:47  <planetmaker> it means if the repo has things you don't have and you have things the repo doesn't have
19:54:55  <planetmaker> Then you have to merge the two changes somehow
19:55:08  <V453000> ooh
19:56:16  <planetmaker> like if I now added something and pushed it. You meanwhile also added something
19:56:29  <V453000> hmmm I tried hg add ../Slug01_small02.png which is the file in the upper folder I wanted to add and it said not under root ... so I did it as root and it told me Not trusting file .hg/hgrc from untrusted user V453000
19:56:34  <V453000> and in the end it told me not under root
19:56:40  <planetmaker> then you pulled. And... yeah, you got two changes which have the same "parent". Thus based on the same state
19:56:47  <planetmaker> of course not
19:56:54  <planetmaker> why would you need to run it as root :-)
19:57:08  <V453000> that is what I wondered myself
19:57:15  <V453000> but ... how does it work then
19:57:41  <Ammler> hmm
19:57:50  <Ammler> didn't I tell you?
19:58:00  <V453000> I hope you didnt
19:58:04  <Ammler> _never_ use root :-)
19:58:15  <planetmaker> V453000: no, I didn't
19:58:17  <V453000> but what if that bastardous thing asks for it :D
19:58:24  <planetmaker> Even if I could, I should not.
19:58:34  <planetmaker> unless you ask me ;-)
19:58:41  <V453000> pm: wha?
19:58:49  <planetmaker> or make me also project developer ;-)
19:58:58  <Ammler> V453000: I am not aware any tool asking for it
19:59:04  <V453000> oh, ok :)
19:59:15  <planetmaker> (but I have enough things to do at the moment, tbh...)
19:59:27  <Ammler> except maybe rpm, but then you know why
19:59:38  <planetmaker> though I could of course also occasionally update the build system, if needed - and if you use 'mine'
19:59:45  <planetmaker> apropos build system...
20:00:02  <planetmaker> Ammler: I'm considering to put the newgrf makefile under the modified BSD license instead of GPL
20:00:05  <Ammler> well, since he uses linux, it should be no issue
20:00:16  <planetmaker> that'd make it more accessible...
20:00:23  <planetmaker> e.g. for CC-BY projects or so
20:00:28  <Ammler> your software :-P
20:00:37  <Ammler> (I wouldn't)
20:01:05  <Ammler> there is no need to support such licenses, imo
20:01:16  <planetmaker> CC-BY?
20:01:25  <Ammler> you can do that individually
20:01:32  <V453000> planetmaker: now you are officially NUTS
20:01:48  <planetmaker> ach... many people just hack together a newgrf, upload it, and forget. That's it. They'd be safe then ;-)
20:01:48  <Ammler> yes, it gives the look, you recommend such license then
20:02:31  <Ammler> people which hack together a grf don't use your framework anyway
20:02:46  <Ammler> but as said, your software :-)
20:03:06  <Ammler> my committs there are for your usage
20:03:17  <V453000> hmf
20:03:46  <Ammler> is there a limit someone needs to contribute, until you need to ask?
20:03:47  <V453000> I even thought that I set wrong path to the file previously (which I accidentally did) but when I corrected it it just says not under root again
20:03:56  <V453000> how to ... run the hg add ?
20:04:11  <planetmaker> hg add path/to/filename?
20:04:21  <Ammler> V453000: run hg status first
20:04:25  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Code Review #2053 (Closed): Arctic Railcars - Revised to 28px (foobar) @
20:04:25  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Revision 689:1384481c865a: Feature: revised arctic railcars (DanMack) (closes #2053) (foobar) @
20:04:27  <Ammler> and check, what it would add
20:04:42  <Ammler> if everything is fine to add, you can run hg addremove
20:04:50  <V453000> hg status did not give any output
20:04:57  <Ammler> then there is nothing to add?
20:05:05  <V453000> hmf :d
20:07:13  <V453000> oh wait
20:07:17  <V453000> I am so god damn dumb
20:08:32  *** Lakie has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
20:08:35  <V453000> yey, finally
20:08:37  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Revision 690:b13c6b0c4b1b: Fix: remove action colours from arctic_engines.png (foobar) @
20:08:44  <V453000> do not even try to guess where was the issue :D
20:12:10  <V453000> hg commit -m "some commit message text" -> no username supplied
20:12:46  <V453000> I knew I did not set that up anywhere ... where do I set that up? in windows I edited the mercurial.ini, is here something like that?
20:13:17  <planetmaker> ~/.hgrc
20:13:17  <Hirundo> hg help config will tell you
20:13:28  <planetmaker> might not (yet) exist
20:14:32  <V453000> does not exist indeed, what should I do with it when I create it ?
20:22:13  <FooBar> open it with a text editor and put something in similar to this:
20:22:16  <V453000> hmm, what should the file have? I read that if it contains just a *, then it accepts all users
20:22:38  <V453000> oh, okay, so the hgrc is my info
20:22:53  <FooBar> .hgrc on linux is what mercurial.ini is on windows
20:23:46  <Ammler> V453000: you do not need to add trusted
20:23:47  <V453000> ok :) that is what I did not know
20:23:49  <Ammler> just user
20:23:58  <Ammler> ui.user
20:25:37  <V453000> the . in the beginning means that it is something like a hidden file?
20:26:12  <FooBar> yes
20:26:52  <Ammler> ls does not show those except you use -a
20:27:13  <V453000> what is a command for opening in some text editor?
20:27:18  <V453000> I knew vim
20:27:26  <Ammler> use gui
20:27:39  <Ammler> kate or whatever
20:27:43  <Ammler> some here use geany
20:28:47  <V453000> well gui ... I tried to use gedit but it could not see the hidden thing :)
20:28:49  <Ammler> using linux does not mean, using console only
20:29:19  <V453000> oh, got it
20:29:19  <Ammler> I would recommend geany, as that has a highlighter for nml
20:30:58  <V453000> [auth] devzone.prefix = leave this as it is ?
20:31:06  <V453000> devzone.shemes = https and this
20:31:23  <Ammler> you already asked
20:31:36  <Ammler> do not ask until you get issues
20:31:37  <V453000> I know but I do not have that saved here, sorry
20:32:05  <Ammler> asking on purpose is timewaste
20:32:27  <andythenorth> are we short of time? :)
20:32:32  <Ammler> always
20:32:37  <andythenorth> he
20:32:41  <Ammler> specially you
20:32:48  <Ammler> me never
20:32:48  <andythenorth> I waste a lot of time
20:33:01  <andythenorth> time wasting + impatience
20:33:14  <V453000> :D
20:33:26  <Ammler> andythenorth: well, feel free to answer his question :-P
20:33:57  <andythenorth> I don't recognise that bit of hgrc
20:34:08  <V453000> okay, the hg commit -m "messageee" looks like it ate the command
20:34:08  <andythenorth> I just have default-push iirc
20:34:18  <V453000> but I cannot say I know where to find the result :D
20:34:26  <Ammler> hg log
20:35:07  <V453000> right but what does that do, move the file to the repository on the devzone?
20:35:15  <andythenorth> no
20:35:16  <V453000> with the comment
20:35:20  <V453000> uh :)
20:35:22  <andythenorth> commits are local
20:35:25  <andythenorth> unlike svn
20:35:29  <V453000> oh
20:35:31  <andythenorth> hg push will...push
20:35:38  <andythenorth> but you should use hg pull -u first
20:35:41  <andythenorth> or similar
20:35:50  <Ammler> that you use before commit
20:35:51  <andythenorth> otherwise you *will* have merges
20:35:52  <V453000> I see, so now I push the things to put the file to the repository with the comment
20:35:58  <andythenorth> and ammler *will* tell you off
20:36:14  <Ammler> yep, try push
20:36:54  <andythenorth> hmm
20:37:06  <andythenorth> wonder how to copy /etc, /bin and such
20:37:12  <andythenorth> could rsync them
20:37:17  <andythenorth> only take newest
20:37:21  <Ammler> :-o
20:37:31  <Ammler> I have /etc as hg repo
20:37:32  <planetmaker> uhm... not sure they should be synced, andythenorth
20:37:37  <V453000> SHIT it works :D
20:37:37  <V453000> :D
20:37:37  <Brot6> Unrealistic Trainset - Revision 0:26c134ac17ba: messageeee (V453000) @
20:37:44  <andythenorth> planetmaker: me neither
20:37:53  <V453000> thank you for your patience :P
20:37:55  <andythenorth> I have _some_ stuff I've added, but not sure where
20:37:57  <Ammler> Brot6: you could have used sandbox for playing
20:38:05  <Ammler> V453000: I meant
20:38:05  <andythenorth> like macports, python installs etc
20:38:14  <andythenorth> might be in /usr
20:38:15  <andythenorth> or /var
20:38:16  <andythenorth> or such
20:38:22  <planetmaker> ports?
20:38:23  <V453000> sandbox?
20:38:24  <andythenorth> no idea really :P
20:38:29  <Ammler> test project
20:38:37  <Ammler> to push/pull and play around
20:38:41  <V453000> oh ... does it spoil the project too much? :)
20:38:43  <Ammler> you can remove that commit anymore
20:38:46  <planetmaker> andythenorth: /opt/local
20:38:52  <Ammler> V453000: it is your project
20:38:55  <Ammler> just mentioned
20:38:57  <V453000> hmmm :)
20:39:02  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I've been upgrading / migrating this OS since OS X beta, so it has a lot of....accretion
20:39:14  <planetmaker> :-O
20:39:16  <V453000> I guess one started does not hurt :)
20:39:23  <andythenorth> yeah
20:39:27  <andythenorth> time to put an end to that
20:40:01  <V453000> I guess it is wise to write a script to help me there so I do not have to memorize it all, right :)
20:41:11  <V453000> anyway, I will be going :) waking up very early.. good night and thank you :)
20:41:34  <planetmaker> g'night V453000
20:41:43  <V453000> good night pm :)
20:42:26  <V453000> btw you are developer of NUTS, I said it before but not sure if you noticed :P
20:42:58  <planetmaker> I did. I'm just not sure what I should make of that ;-)
20:44:04  <V453000> dunno you asked for it :P
20:47:50  <planetmaker> you misunderstood me there ;-)
20:48:03  <V453000> how come ? :O
20:48:36  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Code Review #1983 (Closed): 28px temperate rail wagons (foobar) @
20:48:36  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Revision 691:710acb803d04: Feature: revised temperate rail wagons (DanMack) (closes #1983) (foobar) @
20:56:09  <andythenorth> bed time
20:56:10  *** andythenorth has left #openttdcoop.devzone
21:03:13  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Revision 692:c632c47088dd: Codechange: rename some files to clarify their status (foobar) @
21:05:25  *** FooBar has quit IRC
21:06:19  <planetmaker> hm... Foobar...
21:06:28  <planetmaker> the 88 had a sense - and he left ;-)
21:07:09  <Ammler> 8/8?
21:12:15  <planetmaker> yes
21:14:28  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Feature #2884: passenger wagons (michi_cc) @
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22:03:14  *** bodis has quit IRC
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22:52:37  <Brot6> Autopilot - Bug #2923 (New): Can't run 2 instances (Sc00by22) @
23:01:55  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Feature #2924 (New): Prussian steam engines - sprites (oberhuemer) @
23:01:58  <Brot6> Autopilot - Bug #2923: Can't run 2 instances (Ammler) @
23:03:09  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Feature #2924 (New): Prussian steam engines - sprites (oberhuemer) @
23:03:18  <Brot6> Autopilot - Bug #2923: Can't run 2 instances (Sc00by22) @
23:05:45  <Brot6> Autopilot - Bug #2923: Can't run 2 instances (Ammler) @
23:06:39  <Brot6> Autopilot - Bug #2923: Can't run 2 instances (Sc00by22) @
23:07:16  <Brot6> Autopilot - Bug #2923: Can't run 2 instances (Ammler) @
23:09:30  <Brot6> Autopilot - Bug #2923: Can't run 2 instances (Ammler) @
23:11:44  <Brot6> Autopilot - Bug #2923: Can't run 2 instances (Sc00by22) @
23:16:59  <Brot6> Autopilot - Bug #2923: Can't run 2 instances (Ammler) @
23:23:24  <Brot6> Autopilot - Bug #2923: Can't run 2 instances (Sc00by22) @
23:25:07  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Feature #2924: Prussian steam engines - sprites (Eddi) @
23:29:40  <Ammler> ticket chat :-)
23:30:15  <Brot6> Autopilot - Bug #2923 (Closed): Can't run 2 instances (Sc00by22) @
23:30:15  <Brot6> Autopilot - Bug #2923 (Closed): Can't run 2 instances (Ammler) @
23:51:33  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Feature #2924: Prussian steam engines - sprites (oberhuemer) @
23:52:38  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Feature #2924: Prussian steam engines - sprites (oberhuemer) @
23:54:30  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Feature #2924: Prussian steam engines - sprites (oberhuemer) @
23:55:10  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Feature #2924: Prussian steam engines - sprites (oberhuemer) @

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