Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 15th November 2011:
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00:56:04  <Brot6> British Rail OpenTTD Set - Support #2574 (Resolved): Coder AWOL (welshdragon) @
01:59:19  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Feature #3105: Länderbahn electric engines and MUs (oberhuemer) @
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12:16:11  <ChillCore> Good day all.
12:16:52  <planetmaker> hello ChillCore
12:18:22  <ChillCore> hello planetmaker.
12:20:10  <ChillCore> Have anyone read my last post the mhl thread? Just wondering if I did not say too many stupid stuff?
12:21:10  <ChillCore> s Have/Has      note to self  ... type at slower rate.
12:23:18  <planetmaker> not thoroughly. But one thing: the MIN_DESERT_HEIGHT would need to be 1
12:23:39  <planetmaker> the settings.ini stores the absolute minimum and maximum of the variable. And the default
12:24:05  <planetmaker> And abs. min and max would need to be IMHO the same as MAX_HEIGHTLEVEL. Or maybe a bit lower for the desert, but I don't see why
12:24:22  <planetmaker> min of course 0 or 1
12:26:09  <ChillCore> But current trunk uses 4 for upper desert line as it is. The patch allows to mody that. lower desert line is handled differently (tiles from shore) and this is not changed.
12:26:43  <ChillCore> s mody/modify
12:27:03  <planetmaker> ah, yes, the upper desert line. But... well. Maybe I mis-read. The minimum IMHO should, if it becomes a variable, be 1
12:27:10  <planetmaker> default could still be 4 or so
12:27:37  <planetmaker> maybe one is a bad idea, though. Not sure. But... it'd just give a different map. And doesn't hurt much
12:28:13  <ChillCore> If max desert line is the same as MAX_HEIGHTLEVEL then it is possible to create games without rainforest. (except for the tiny bit that reamins at the shores)
12:28:36  <planetmaker> and next to rivers
12:29:03  <ChillCore> I did not yet test that as the patch I gave ic111 is from before rivers
12:29:23  <planetmaker> rivers always have grass adjacent
12:29:59  <planetmaker> anyway, I don't see a need to forcefully limit it to 4. Might not give good maps, but some scenario makers might like it
12:30:27  <planetmaker> Or is there any reason other than "little desert" or "little rainforest" to disallow any height for either min or max?
12:30:44  <ChillCore> rivers are generated before or after desert generation (rainforest is generated after desert)?
12:30:44  <planetmaker> After all we also allow snowline height of 255
12:30:57  <planetmaker> rivers are generated after. but then change the tiletype
12:31:35  <planetmaker> dunno the other
12:32:58  <ChillCore> industry generation might fail?         True snowline goes down to level 2 too (snowline if from top down to snowline -> inverse)
12:33:50  <ChillCore> and limit is MAX_HEIGHTLEVEL - 2
12:34:02  <ChillCore> ^^^ upper
12:36:23  <ChillCore> as for desert you may not set the upper limit lower than the lower limit ... I think this would cause trouble on mapgeneration (read: "lower" line is tiles from shore which could be higher then 1.)
12:36:36  <ChillCore> not sure though.
12:39:50  <ChillCore> s limit/line * 2
12:40:41  <frosch123> is the desert-height setting really a good idea?
12:40:54  <frosch123> i would leave everything to a single map-gen setting "max height"
12:41:05  <frosch123> so, desert-height = max-heigth / 4 or so
12:41:24  <frosch123> also, i think the max-height must be fixed at map generation, any may not be altered in gmae
12:41:43  <frosch123> e.g. i would expect the snowline to jump :p
12:42:25  <ChillCore> I sugested to clamp it according to max_height selected and before I sugested to do maxheight / 4 but he made it 255 in his patch.
12:42:49  <ChillCore> frosh: are you working an an all climates patch? :P
12:43:00  <frosch123> well, imo a desert setting depending on height is confusing at best, and makes no sense
12:43:07  <ChillCore> snow - desert in the same game?
12:43:39  <frosch123> if there would be a desert-amount setting it should be like the other map gen settings "few"..."much"
12:44:01  <frosch123> ChillCore: all climate always looked damn ugly to me, so no :p
12:44:33  <frosch123> also the use-case for all-climate seems to be restricted to 2kx2k maps representing the worldmap
12:44:42  <frosch123> while there is no use in a random generated map
12:44:56  <frosch123> you cannot mix tilesets in other games either. it just makes no sense
12:45:57  <ChillCore> As I sugested it now player could still select both max height and desertline but desert line could not be higher than max_height / 4 * 3 to preserve some rainforest in the game
12:46:29  <frosch123> well, for mhl i would suggest to not add a setting for desert
12:46:33  <andythenorth> frosch123: snow-rainforest-desert :)
12:46:38  <frosch123> just fix it at max-height / 4
12:46:42  <frosch123> everything else is a different patch
12:47:12  <frosch123> and imo, a desert height makes no sense. it should be "few" or "many" etc, and not only related to height
12:47:25  <ChillCore> I was joking about the all climates  .... as you mentioned snowline.
12:47:54  <frosch123> andythenorth: yeah, lots of code for a single "kilimanjaro" scenario
12:47:55  * andythenorth thinks it would be witty to have snow as a height feature, rather than limited to a specific climate
12:48:40  <ChillCore> frosh: just fix it at max-height / 4  <-  "+ leave out the gui stuff" was my first suggestion
12:49:05  * andythenorth ponders reading the code for tile bits :P
12:49:16  * andythenorth does real work instead
12:49:37  <frosch123> anyway, i took a look at mhl last night
12:49:49  <ChillCore> but ic111 has his way of coming up often with something entirely different then suggested at times.
12:49:49  <frosch123> most code seems to be about creating virtual heights outside of the map
12:50:06  <frosch123> which i really wonder why that is required and cannot be done easier ... :s
12:50:14  <ChillCore> that has to be handled too unfortenatly.
12:50:29  <ChillCore> -> glitches
12:50:40  <ChillCore> and crash with aircraft
12:50:53  <frosch123> well, yes, but he seems to draw black tile sprites
12:51:12  <frosch123> why can't he just draw black rectangles without any sprite?
12:51:17  <ChillCore> unselectable industries and towns etc.
12:51:49  <frosch123> yes, he might need better start value for the fix-point iteration
12:52:56  <ChillCore> bounding box in regards of drawing outside the map IIRC.  in reply to your question.
12:53:15  <ChillCore> current trunk that is.
12:53:35  <ChillCore> and at level zero.
12:55:25  <ChillCore> trunk assumes that past a certain point nothing has to be drawn anymore. tile (1,1,0) + 15 levels + some more and then it stops -> glitches
12:56:09  <ChillCore> so that is why he draws the black tiles ... other reasons you may have to ask him.
12:56:40  <ChillCore> + handles things outside the map too
12:59:31  <ChillCore> I am sure you know that OpenTTD is a chessboard game ... all the rest is an illusion :P
13:06:26  <V453000> checkmate
13:06:40  <ChillCore> So, yes there is a lot of code that handles the virtual heights outside the map. But only because else there would not be mhl to start with.
13:06:59  <ChillCore> lol V45300 :p
13:07:08  <ChillCore> +0
13:07:56  <planetmaker> learn to use auto-completion, ChillCore ;-)
13:08:03  <planetmaker> (for me tab auto-completes nicknames)
13:08:41  <V453000> :PP
13:09:07  <ChillCore> Maybe it could be handled differently but I would not now how, I do not think ic111 will be willing to restart unless it is just changing something simple in trurnk and leaving out chunks of code in mhl.
13:09:10  <V453000> particularly useful for some stupid nicknames as mine :P
13:09:25  <ChillCore> planetmaker: it works thanks.
13:09:44  <V453000> back to school ... have a nice day
13:09:52  <ChillCore> you too.
13:14:27  <ChillCore> Also IIRC ic111 tried a few different things when he started and current implementation was the least resource demanding.
13:28:52  <ChillCore> Should I tell ic111 that it is prefered to set desert line at maxheight / 4 and forget about letting the player choose? I think that he will easier accept if a Dev told him.
13:29:23  <planetmaker> you could quote the IRC discussion
13:29:47  <planetmaker> (the relevant part thereof)
13:30:00  <ChillCore> It should not be too big of a problem as it is his top patch and would not have conflicts to solve in the others because of changing this.
13:30:32  <ChillCore> planetmaker: I could do that but I thought "what happens on IRC ... "
13:30:49  <planetmaker> hu?
13:30:57  <planetmaker> @logs
13:30:58  <Webster> #openttdcoop IRC webstuff - IRC Log Viewer -
13:31:36  <ChillCore> If it is ok to frosh I will qoute him on that.
13:32:03  <planetmaker> I'd cut out the relevant part manually and post / paste in the forum that
13:32:17  <planetmaker> Easier to follow a discussion that way :-)
13:33:18  <ChillCore> Ah logs thanks...      about hu?  I have read some remarks (elsewhere) that said: "what happens on irc stays on irc" so I thought it would not be appreciated.
13:33:18  <planetmaker> and reading IRC logs usually is not fun anyway ;-)
13:33:31  <planetmaker> well. In principle that's right
13:33:45  <planetmaker> but many openttd channels have logs
13:34:20  <ChillCore> ^^^ I know ... they are fun browsing .... sometimes
13:34:50  <ChillCore> hehe
13:34:54  <planetmaker> yeah
13:35:19  <planetmaker> maybe not quote his channel's log URL :-)
13:35:25  <planetmaker> I like it to be a bit "private" :-)
13:35:26  <ChillCore> Big brother is watching you ...
13:35:33  <ChillCore> I understand
13:35:47  <ChillCore> that is why I was hesitant
13:36:05  <planetmaker> but quoting from IRC by paste.. oh well :-) especially not if it's on-topic
13:36:11  <planetmaker> *not a problem
13:36:26  <ChillCore> stuff blabbed out here might not be official point of view :P
13:36:37  <planetmaker> lol
13:36:50  <Yexo> ChillCore: there is no "official point of view"
13:37:06  <planetmaker> fun fact is, there's no official "OpenTTD view". There's only the individual views of people. Some might be developers
13:37:14  <ChillCore> people might take it that way.
13:37:39  <planetmaker> they might. Doesn't make it necessarily right, though :-)
13:37:54  <planetmaker> sometimes that mis-conception isn't too bad, though ;-)
13:38:12  <ChillCore> I think too far ahead ... I know .... story of my life.
13:38:13  <planetmaker> And in a surprising number of things "we" devs naturally agree
13:38:41  <Yexo> ^^ or don't care :)
13:38:42  <planetmaker> but as we say here "We also only cook with water"
13:38:47  <planetmaker> or that ;-)
13:39:10  <Yexo> and it's not that surprising
13:39:13  <ChillCore> :)
13:39:24  <Yexo> someone who constantly disagrees over what or how things should be done is unlikely to become a dev
13:39:36  <planetmaker> :-)
13:39:42  <planetmaker> also that, yes
13:39:51  <ChillCore> so max_height / 4 no gui it is then.
13:40:39  <planetmaker> I won't disagree :-). And if it would be needed anytime, it can be a patch anytime later, completely independent.
13:41:02  <ChillCore> lol I thought it was still frosh talking instead of Yexo ... hi Yexo
13:41:10  <planetmaker> hehe
13:41:28  <planetmaker> frosch and y3xo have different colours here. But you and frosch have the same...
13:41:40  * ChillCore rubs dirt out of eyes
13:42:07  <ChillCore> I did not even pay attention.
13:42:26  <ChillCore> slow morning ... too much beer yesterday
13:43:13  <ChillCore> only a little too much though. it's not like I emptied a case
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14:21:32  <ChillCore> planetmaker: Ok like this?
14:21:49  <ChillCore> Just thinking  ... better safe than sorry
14:29:29  <frosch123> it is missing the context
14:29:49  <frosch123> hmm, or does "patch 240" say enough? :)
14:31:41  <ChillCore> For ic111 yes, unless he forgets fast , but I may add it for other people to be able to follow. I did that too in my last post. :P
14:32:24  <ChillCore> And I think I saw him do the same before ... think is the keyword
14:32:40  <ChillCore> Do I add something else before posting.
14:33:37  <ChillCore> or remove something ... like your nick for example?
14:34:25  <ChillCore> It does not really matter who said it ;)
14:34:55  <frosch123> maybe drop the that last thing about the virtual heights
14:35:02  <frosch123> i did not look into the details too much
14:35:37  <frosch123> and requesting a general explanation for unspecific stuff is more work for him, and use for anyone else
14:36:48  <ChillCore> Ok no prob, still I would like to know what exactly he tried before ... I can always ask him later.
14:43:23  <ChillCore> posted ... just let me know if I need to edit or add something.
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15:08:18  <frosch123> does nml set the "32px vehicle length" thingie by default?
15:09:21  <planetmaker> not afaik
15:09:36  <frosch123> so, i blame fs#4839 to not set it
15:09:51  <frosch123> do you know out of you head what he has to set?
15:11:04  <planetmaker> train_width_32_px
15:11:20  <planetmaker> but not known by heart, admittedly
15:12:11  <frosch123> :)
15:12:20  <frosch123> wanna link to that from the task?
15:12:43  <planetmaker> I thought you were already answering it. But I could do so, too
15:14:06  <planetmaker> replied to it
15:14:41  <planetmaker> but maybe it should be the default for NewGRFs?
15:15:01  <planetmaker> And NML should introduce a variable like 29px_in_depot ? :-)
15:18:19  <Yexo> train_width_32_px = 0; <- that already works
15:18:33  <Yexo> I'm not in favour of changing the default however
15:19:17  <planetmaker> of course that works. But... I doubt there's any train NewGRF which has that flag NOT set
15:19:28  <planetmaker> But it might pose a problem for OpenGFX
15:19:50  <Yexo> more trouble than it's worth to change
15:19:55  <Yexo> every set should just set it
15:20:13  <planetmaker> Well. Then it could be NML's default, couldn't it? And only OpenGFX sets it = 0
15:21:16  <Yexo> that means either nml has to detect if any trains are used, or would set that flag even for industry sets
15:21:42  <planetmaker> it only makes sense in the first scenario, sure
15:22:10  <planetmaker> And no, it's nothing I'd personally attribute high priority to. But it's one of those small little foot traps
15:22:14  <frosch123> the flag is grf-local in ottd
15:55:52  <planetmaker> <-- V453000 could you please test whether the tunnel parameter works again for you as it should?
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15:58:34  <V453000> sure, not right now, but in 1 hour
15:58:40  <planetmaker> sweet :-)
16:06:30  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Feature #3105: Länderbahn electric engines and MUs (Eddi) @
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16:37:50  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Feature #3105: Länderbahn electric engines and MUs (oberhuemer) @
17:19:59  <Brot6> heqs: update from r712 to r713 done -
17:23:09  <Brot6> vactrainset: compile of r1 still failed (#3044) -
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18:12:04  <planetmaker> uhm, frosch123, was there ever a grf2html repo on the DevZone?
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18:14:11  <planetmaker> ah, no
18:15:42  <planetmaker> though... the svn seems dead or unreachable
18:17:30  <planetmaker> as such I guess the issue why I don't have it is availability of binary
18:18:44  <frosch123> orudge: does not reply to ping
18:19:15  <frosch123> though maybe we could move it to hg anyway
18:19:48  <planetmaker> unavailability of a svn repo shows how much "better" dvcs are :-)
18:22:50  <V453000> planetmaker: works :) thanks
18:31:42  <planetmaker> hm, it does? Funny. Doesn't for me :-O
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18:55:20  <V453000> :D how come?
18:55:52  <planetmaker> *that* I'd like to know :-)
18:57:19  <Rubidium> planetmaker: svn is so much better for my work ;)
18:57:35  <planetmaker> which of your work?
18:57:38  <Rubidium> how often people "forget" to commit stuff, well I wouldn't want to add the step of pushing as well
18:57:43  <Rubidium> planetmaker: paid work ;)
18:58:18  <Rubidium> especially when it's binary files with non-existent to imaginary merge support
18:58:26  <planetmaker> ok :-)
18:58:48  <Rubidium> though I like OpenTTD's hybrid ;)
18:58:56  <planetmaker> yes, that works very well
18:59:14  <planetmaker> but I'd not like see the dvcs option gone
18:59:31  <planetmaker> having one svn as authorative... well, that's ok :-)
19:02:45  <Brot6> clientpatches: compile of r23229 still failed (#2964) -
19:04:46  <Brot6> serverpatches: compile of r23229 still failed (#2966) -
19:06:53  <Brot6> 32bpp-ez-patches: compile of r23229 still failed (#2446) -
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19:52:16  <Brot6> HEQS "Heavy Equipment" Set - trams_offsets.png (andythenorth) @
19:57:54  <Brot6> HEQS "Heavy Equipment" Set - tram_offsets_2.png (andythenorth) @
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20:46:58  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Bug #1629: Review conversion for speed property (planetmaker) @
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20:50:39  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Bug #1629: Review conversion for speed property (Hirundo) @
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20:58:52  <Ammler> planetmaker: then you could use hgsubversion which openttd should anyway
20:59:15  <planetmaker> then?
20:59:34  <planetmaker> oh, you mean with grf2html?
20:59:38  <planetmaker> yes
20:59:53  <Ammler> no, with openttd removes his silly "official" hg repo
21:00:39  <Ammler> it should use a hg repo which is bidirectional
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22:13:25  <Brot6> HEQS "Heavy Equipment" Set - Bug #3247 (New): Tram offsets need to vary according to drive side (andythenorth) @
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22:17:05  <Brot6> HEQS "Heavy Equipment" Set - Bug #3247 (New): Tram offsets need to vary according to drive side (andythenorth) @
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