Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 9th August 2012:
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11:27:57  <Phazorx> g'day
11:29:23  <Phazorx> are coopers working on cargodest or it's some other group of developers?
11:32:41  <Ammler> none
11:33:12  <Phazorx> err... you mean it's not coop project?
11:33:14  <Ammler> just fork and continue
11:33:24  <Ammler> no, I mean is none project
11:33:30  <Ammler> noones
11:33:42  <Phazorx> well someome maintains it for sure
11:33:45  <Ammler> maybe cargodist is a bit active
11:33:46  <Phazorx> on github
11:33:48  <planetmaker> it's only fonsinchen's project
11:33:55  <Phazorx> i see
11:34:00  <planetmaker> and yacd is michi_cc's project
11:34:06  <planetmaker> available on
11:34:07  <Phazorx> and paxdest is forgotten completely?
11:34:46  <Ammler> which paxdest are you refering to?
11:34:57  <Phazorx> heh one i rmember from like 4 years ago
11:35:05  <Phazorx> it was on box
11:35:12  <Phazorx> for a short while at least
11:35:19  <planetmaker> all kinds of *dest have been there once at least...
11:35:25  <planetmaker> thus it's not an indication really ;-)
11:35:26  <Ammler> I guess, you remember cargodest from peter and celestar
11:35:29  <Phazorx> i wodner if there is some playable destination based build for ottd
11:35:45  <planetmaker> yacd and cargodist
11:35:46  <Phazorx> well it's been a while
11:35:50  <Ammler> cargodist or yacd:-)
11:35:59  <Phazorx> pm are you familar with cargodest's logic?
11:36:05  <planetmaker> no
11:36:06  <Phazorx> and is yacd any better/worse ?
11:36:13  <Ammler> better ask in #openttd
11:36:14  <planetmaker> yacd is similar to cargodest
11:36:23  <Phazorx> i sort of wonder how routing and spawning works there
11:36:34  <planetmaker> in any case, if you want to start, do that with either yacd or cargodist
11:36:59  <Phazorx> start?
11:37:23  <planetmaker> yacd assigns 1...4 (?) destination industries for each product an industry produces.
11:37:29  <Phazorx> i have cargodest trunk here, but i see some issue with it's logic and volumes
11:37:40  <planetmaker> while cargodist assignes destinations depending on the available network
11:38:04  <planetmaker> thus with yacd you have incentive to really connect everything
11:38:22  <planetmaker> while with cargodist you don't. As it depends on the available network
11:38:46  <planetmaker> really, don't use cargodest ;-)
11:39:02  <planetmaker> all which was learnt from it (and from cargodist partially) is in yacd
11:39:03  <Phazorx> hrm...
11:39:22  <Phazorx> i have cargodist not dest as Ammler corectly mointed out
11:39:25  <michi_cc> planetmaker: yacd doesn't have a maximum limit, the more cargo produced, the more destinations (but yes, this translates to 1..4 for normal production :)
11:39:29  <planetmaker> lalala :-)
11:39:40  <planetmaker> :-) ty, michi_cc
11:39:55  <Phazorx> michi_cc: what are rules for picking destinations?
11:39:59  <planetmaker> just going by my last game with yacd... which is certainly >12 months ago
11:40:43  <Phazorx> is consumtion somehow factored in for PBI-like industry sets?
11:40:52  <planetmaker> "accepts cargo". And balanced somehow that all industries get something
11:41:07  <Phazorx> planetmaker: accepts based on stations or industries?
11:41:15  <planetmaker> destinations are industries
11:41:24  <planetmaker> or houses
11:41:39  <michi_cc> Phazorx: Weighted random selection (e.g. for towns it is: close by towns are more often selected than towns with the city flag, which are more often selected as larger towns which are more often than any town).
11:42:02  <Phazorx> michi_cc: and for local pax/mail traffic?
11:42:18  <michi_cc> Of course selection is only down for destinatons that accept the cargo.
11:43:16  <michi_cc> Amount of local pax is a fixed percentage, calculated based on the the size of the town and the total size of all its destinations (i.e. the more traffic to the other towns, the less inter-town traffic).
11:43:20  <Phazorx> michi_cc: i understand that, and if there is a multi-legged transfer network, like where unit has to go through more than one distribution center - how is it picked up and trasfered?
11:44:23  <Phazorx> like A - H1 - H2 - H3 - B, what kind of order h1-h2 route needs for getting B targeted unit from A ?
11:44:25  <michi_cc> It just is ;) Cheapest path according to several different penalties.
11:44:44  <michi_cc> Any that allows loading at H1 and unloading at H2.
11:44:56  <Phazorx> so a unit weights alternatives based on available routes then?
11:45:13  <Phazorx> what if h1 and h3 are connected as well?
11:45:24  <michi_cc> Yes. The penalties used are highly dynamic, so it appears that cargo routes over more than one way.
11:45:57  <Phazorx> reason i mention it because i see routing issues in cargodist
11:46:08  <Phazorx> and iwonder if logic same in yacd
11:46:16  <michi_cc> Connected alone doesn't mean anything. H1 - H2 - H3 has a certain penalty and H1 - H3 another, it will pick whatever is better.
11:46:17  <planetmaker> Phazorx: that's comparing apples and pears
11:46:37  <planetmaker> cargodist uses the routing to decide the destination
11:46:46  <planetmaker> yacd decides the destination before the cargo gets loaded
11:47:19  <Phazorx> planetmaker: after destination is choosen i wonder how routing on intermediate steps works
11:47:32  <Phazorx> like in scenario i mentioned there could be alternative ways to get to destonation
11:47:40  <Phazorx> with different amounts of stops and traffic
11:47:45  <planetmaker> so there can be, yes
11:48:26  <Phazorx> how would logic work in case for a particular unit that has more than one physical way to get to destination but with no vehicles picking it up due to watever?
11:48:53  <Phazorx> when does decision to be loaded or not is commited into?
11:49:14  <Phazorx> and i hope my screwy english is comprehandable
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11:50:07  <Ammler> Phazorx: the audience in #openttd would be bigger and everyone here is also there...
11:50:34  <Phazorx> well they are quiet there and you guys are answering my questions here
11:50:40  <Ammler> :-)
11:50:46  <michi_cc> There are penalties for travel time, travel distance, transfers, mode of transportation, waiting cargo at start/transfer point and time since last vehicle.
11:51:11  <Phazorx> aha.. so it is complex
11:51:26  <Phazorx> but still is the route re-evaluated periodically?
11:51:44  <Phazorx> like could a unit decided to backtrack based on some conditions?
11:51:54  <Phazorx> *decide
11:52:47  <Phazorx> michi_cc: basicaly i guess i'm asking if routing is dynamic or static i guess
11:53:15  <Phazorx> like difference between post system and cell network packet delviery protocol
11:53:43  <michi_cc> Calculation always starts at the current point of the cargo, nothing stores where it came from.
11:54:12  <Phazorx> mean it is dynamic
11:54:17  <Phazorx> at least to some level
11:54:28  <Phazorx> but when does that calculation happen?
11:54:46  <michi_cc> It is static and deterministic for a specific moment in time, but the various penalties are always changing, so the chosen route also changes over time.
11:55:06  <Phazorx> well it's either static or route changes over time
11:55:11  <Phazorx> can not be both
11:56:17  <Phazorx> say, for  A-H-B network and A-H, H-B routes, all A-B traffic must be unloaded at H, does player need to force it with transfer order or it happens automatically?
11:56:49  <michi_cc> [13:44 ]<michi_cc> Any that allows loading at H1 and unloading at H2.
11:57:11  <michi_cc> Which especially also includes the plain old goto order.
11:57:40  <Phazorx> okay, imagine now that there is a A-H-B route, where H is intermediate step
11:57:50  <Phazorx> will A-B cargo gets unloaded at h and reloaded back?
11:58:22  <michi_cc> No, it stays on the vehicle. YACD distinguishes between vias and trafers.
11:58:24  <Phazorx> or that is controled based on no-unload order?
11:58:49  <Phazorx> michi_cc: so i presume than that cargo path is re-evaluated at arrival point of time?
11:59:04  <Phazorx> *then
12:00:08  <michi_cc> In theory, yes. In practice, there are some caches involved, so it isn't always recalculated, but still regularly.
12:01:48  <Phazorx> michi_cc: interesting, thanks
12:03:12  <Phazorx> and yacd looks stall for a year already
12:03:24  <Phazorx> it is in finished state or devs are just busy with something else?
12:04:44  <Phazorx> actually i see last changeset dated february... so i guess half a year only
12:07:15  <Phazorx> michi_cc: also, PBI/ECS stockpiling and capacities are factored in somehow too?
12:07:46  <Phazorx> i mean during destination seeding time, not routing obviously
12:08:07  <michi_cc> They aren't (at least not directly), because stockpiling is something internal to NewGRF and OpenTTD knows nothing about it.
12:08:51  <Phazorx> hrm... stacking unrecieved cargo should be visible to engine
12:09:21  <planetmaker> "stacking unreceived cargo"?
12:09:22  <michi_cc> But it isn't (nobody said NewGRF were always sane :)
12:10:08  <planetmaker> hehe indeed
12:10:40  <Phazorx> planetmaker: you know, when an industry can not consume mroe cargo (capacity and stockpile are full) cargo starts building up and acceptance changes
12:10:41  <planetmaker> Phazorx: the main issue - iirc - with yacd is not that it's not finished. It's rather that it has quite a performance impact
12:10:54  <michi_cc> YACD is both finished and unfinished in a sense. The last release is finished in the sense that it implements all of the demand logic I want, but it is also unfinished because several parts need to be reimplemented in a more performance friendly way.
12:10:57  <planetmaker> but michi knows that much better of course
12:11:04  <Phazorx> planetmaker: well obviously if each cargo piece is tracked individually
12:11:30  <Phazorx> michi_cc: and it's just too time consuming or there are no viable aproaches?
12:11:34  <planetmaker> cargo is stored in packets of various size. But...
12:11:53  <Phazorx> pm well batches were discussed 5 years ago when paxdest came up
12:12:58  <Ammler> you have almost the same effect by using firs
12:13:00  <michi_cc> Both. Time is limited and at the same time implementing an efficient algorithm (and not just one that works) is complicated.
12:13:48  <planetmaker> Ammler: playing firs is quite a bit different than yacd...
12:13:54  <Phazorx> michi_cc: but even as of now, cargo is grouped by destinations in baches for re-routing purposes?
12:14:31  <Ammler> planetmaker: almost :-)
12:14:56  <Phazorx> and firs is? (sorry i been away for tooooo long)
12:15:13  <Ammler> a industry newgrf
12:15:15  <planetmaker> Ammler: with FIRS you still don't have any reason to spread deliveries (it's an industry newgrf)
12:15:44  <planetmaker> though the supplies kinda link stuff in a way
12:15:45  <Ammler> with yacd, you have kind of different "subcargo" from every industry
12:16:39  <Ammler> well, the advantage is you have more as 32
12:17:19  <Phazorx> Ammler: 32+ cargo means more transfers and more pooling
12:17:36  <Phazorx> bascialy more mess rather than extra complexity layer as i recall from ECS experience
12:17:51  <Ammler> yep, that is yacd and cargodist
12:17:56  <Ammler> more mess :-)
12:18:16  <Phazorx> Ammler: with yacd i probably can get away with universal station
12:18:26  <Phazorx> rather than a type of statin per cargo
12:18:39  <Ammler> you don't need transfer orders
12:18:40  <planetmaker> Phazorx: you can get away with that in 1.2, too
12:18:52  <planetmaker> just need autorefit orders and a trainset which supports it ;-)
12:19:13  <Phazorx> well, that's a bit different aproach
12:19:14  <michi_cc> YACD has one definite advantage that is good for FIRS: Carog is delivered to the destination industry, and not just the one nearest to the station.
12:19:14  <planetmaker> and the proper settings (e.g. not gradual loading)
12:19:44  <Phazorx> michi_cc: my last question still stands btw, i'm curious
12:19:51  <planetmaker> hm... I wonder if I should play another yacd/firs game. the one with terkhen and andy was very enjoyable
12:21:45  <michi_cc> It isn't grouped (most of the time), because testing showed that it doesn't improve much (i.e. as YACD destinations are down to tile level, there is not much to group. Only exception is when unloading a vehicle, as then you often have several identical cargo packets).
12:22:51  <Phazorx> michi_cc: would it make sense to group by area, rather than by exact tile then?
12:24:28  <Phazorx> it's probably hard to come up with viable logic on what is "far enough" to group by area, however thart could be player issue, not the YACD then
12:25:19  <Phazorx> as in if you end up with cargo somewhere close to where it meant to go but w/o route to exact destiantion - player needs to take care of that
12:26:12  <Phazorx> on the other hand - michi_cc , has following been considered:
12:27:02  <michi_cc> It already is, tile here means a 4x4 area.
12:27:28  <Phazorx> destiantion could be mapped to deliverable areas, where areas would represent catchment area of some station, so rather than routing individual cargo to tiles you could map same area destinations to catchment areas of stations
12:27:55  <Phazorx> well your vehicles are still not going to exact tile, i think it should be based on catchment areas
12:28:24  <Phazorx> however there could be competing routes for overlapping station areas
12:31:48  <V453000> oh hello Phazorx :)
12:32:04  <Phazorx> hey there
12:34:32  <Terkhen> planetmaker: I would if it was updated :P
12:34:49  <planetmaker> :-)
12:35:25  <V453000> Phazorx: I see you found YACD :) I have a question; do you see any purpose of a train junction? I mean, a train junction obviously allows trains to go to different destinations, but you have to build these trains, manage their amount, and build the junction itself. While if you build just a transfer station from 3 directions instead of the junction, you dont build the junction, you simply send point to point trains from each directi
12:35:57  <Phazorx> efficiency
12:36:02  <V453000> you get solved out the "local" destinations, and the new destinations added after trains stuff grows
12:36:06  <Phazorx> cargo needs to ber ubnlaoded and reloaded
12:36:09  <Phazorx> that costs time
12:36:23  <V453000> time, but junction takes more space and a lot more complexity
12:36:38  <V453000> making something more complex for less gain sounds strange
12:36:53  <V453000> loading time isnt that much of an issue I think
12:37:09  <Phazorx> if sorting yards would be an option in ottd, you could match cars into trains by destiantion (like it is in real world)
12:37:31  <V453000> right well that is sort of what happens in such stations
12:37:57  <Phazorx> with realistic loading it takes too long to be profficient
12:38:06  <V453000> not really
12:38:17  <V453000> profit isnt an issue
12:38:26  <Phazorx> i played with PBI once where i had to use feeders on both ends, it was barely making profit
12:38:30  <Phazorx> it is :)
12:38:54  <Phazorx> it sort of depends on what is your goal and how you see the game
12:39:24  <Phazorx> but if we get to trainyards - that could be fun but totally different game
12:39:27  <V453000> yes but by using stations to transfer stuff you even get more cargo as the destinations get found more easily
12:39:37  <V453000> so im not even sure if the profit is actually better
12:40:09  <Phazorx> well stoping starting loading and unloading all costs time, a lot of it
12:40:32  <Phazorx> even moderate station walking wont save the situation imho
12:41:12  <V453000> okay, but to ignore the profit part, can you think of any advantage of the junction over a station systematically?
12:41:14  <V453000> I cant
12:41:31  <Phazorx> it takes the fun away ?
12:41:39  <V453000> well obviously
12:42:09  <V453000> but then my issue is that the stations do "too much"
12:42:12  <Phazorx> i like routing as part fo the game, efficient routing especially, i like to perfect my network to a point when trains are almost always moving
12:42:34  <Phazorx> with 3x station serving as intermediate xfers i get most of trains staying and waiting for cargo to load
12:42:47  <Phazorx> that is a bit borring and distatstefull to me
12:42:59  <Phazorx> my current aproch is - i make termianls when i switch carrier type
12:43:13  <V453000> carrier type?
12:43:24  <V453000> like refit?
12:43:25  <Phazorx> sort of like bus/tram to subway, subway to intercity, intercity to airport
12:43:34  <V453000> ah right, passengers :)
12:44:01  <Phazorx> well truck to station, station to port, ship to destination
12:44:32  <V453000> yes that is very point to point for instance :p
12:44:33  <Phazorx> doesnt matter but if cargo switches type of vehicle it is being on - i accept transfer terminals
12:45:03  <Phazorx> if it's train to train to train - i say it's either a job for destination sorter or there needs to be sorting yard in game
12:45:05  <Ammler> ok :-o
12:45:15  <Phazorx> because dumping all cargo just because is a bit silly
12:45:43  <V453000> sure, it is silly indeed
12:46:05  <V453000> but effective, especially with the "local destinations" and the new destinations that get added when industries grow
12:46:14  <Phazorx> and if it's A-hub-B scenario, where train just stops at intermediate hubs to pickup more cargo - you still need rails to route it and hence junction
12:46:30  <Phazorx> define effective :)
12:46:52  <Phazorx> dual MSRN pickup/delivery for PBI that is effective
12:47:19  <V453000> well effective both in space and system
12:47:28  <Phazorx> extendable SML megaloop with traffic packers - that si effective too!
12:47:31  <V453000> transfer station is a small thing compared to a junction
12:47:49  <Phazorx> it is, but how do you call it effective if it costs you time and money?
12:47:57  <Phazorx> what is efficiency for you?
12:48:03  <V453000> it is, profit doesnt matter
12:48:22  <V453000> profit can change just by changing the settings, newGRFs and what not
12:48:29  <Phazorx> i mean WHAT exactly do you consider as criteria for efficiency? static size?
12:48:33  <Phazorx> *station
12:48:52  <V453000> in this specific case, gaining some throughput over a limited amount of space
12:49:09  <V453000> if you have a web of point to point stations it is about the smallest thing you can build ever
12:49:12  <Phazorx> well with same grfs you would get more profit off junction based network than from transfer based
12:49:15  <V453000> and it does everything
12:49:58  <Phazorx> V453000: well, segregated netowrking has opne major drawback - you have to manage each one individually
12:50:04  <Phazorx> think about SRNW/MSRN
12:50:17  <V453000> but that is the curious thing
12:50:23  <V453000> you do manage train count in each of these
12:50:33  <V453000> but they handle the cargo destinations completely automatic
12:50:48  <V453000> idk what msrn is
12:50:58  <Phazorx> i'd rather spend my time laying tracks than adding/removing trains to be honest
12:51:27  <Phazorx> V453000: it;s on wiki and google 1st link
12:51:30  <V453000> me too, but I hate to search for all destinations and check if there isnt a destination added
12:51:55  <Phazorx> well that is a problem with destination based aprioach that you are suing
12:52:15  <V453000> sure but that is what yacd makes me to do
12:52:19  <planetmaker> msrn = mobile station roaming number?
12:52:24  <Phazorx> i mean cargodist would be an answer to that - only servisable destinations are possible
12:53:03  <Phazorx>
12:53:05  <Webster> Title: Let me google that for you (at
12:53:06  <planetmaker> Personally I'm not too fond of cargodist. It gives no real incentive. It just distributes the stuff differently than before. And you might need more vehicles
12:53:14  <V453000> cargodist is ... odd
12:53:18  <planetmaker> yacd on the other hand gives incentive. As you need to establish certain connections
12:53:33  <V453000> btw I read that article on msrn before, dont understand what it is for
12:53:38  <planetmaker> and it increases difficulty by quite a bit by reducing the (initially) available cargo
12:53:40  <Phazorx> planetmaker: with limited number of industries and types of cargo it is managable
12:53:49  <Phazorx> but with many it becomes quite hectic i think
12:54:08  <planetmaker> both is managable, Phazorx.
12:54:21  <planetmaker> but cargodist is - to me - the wrong approach. It's boring as it gives no incentive
12:54:36  <planetmaker> only result is adding more vehicles to the same network. From a gameplay perspective
12:54:52  <planetmaker> while yacd actively drives where and how the network expands
12:54:52  <Phazorx> it depends how your network looks like
12:55:03  <Phazorx> you could have a lot of options for same network
12:55:06  <planetmaker> (don't look at the final part. Look at how you build)
12:55:17  <planetmaker> try a game with each. And see the difference
12:55:23  <Phazorx> i will
12:55:37  <Phazorx> yacd just finished compiling :)
12:58:21  <Phazorx> V453000: i never finished a game example actually
12:58:44  <Phazorx> but what i had was ratger specific design
12:59:06  <Phazorx> due to PBI industries with capacities
12:59:36  <V453000> well making multipoint srnw isnt really a hard thing
12:59:42  <Phazorx> i had a collector network leading to terminal and from terminal another network which was picking up goods from single station but delivering it to different drops
12:59:45  <V453000> even with any amount of cargoes
13:00:11  <Phazorx> err... i had with single cargo type
13:00:11  <Phazorx> and it is quite bulcky
13:00:16  <V453000> yeah
13:00:20  <Phazorx> but it's very maintanable
13:00:41  <V453000> if you use a relatively standard srnw, with just one order as unreachable waypoint, you can do basically anything with the trains
13:00:48  <Phazorx> after it is setup you only manage timer trains for drops to maintain capacity
13:00:52  <V453000> split them, make them go anywhere, merge them back, anything you want
13:01:19  <V453000> we used something like that just a few public server games ago actually
13:01:38  <Phazorx> yeah... my point was that it's a network that does destination management by nature
13:02:04  <V453000> that is done by the station timing?
13:02:05  <Phazorx> you create station, connect it to network, setup timer, and you done
13:02:12  <V453000> ye
13:02:22  <V453000> that could be done in various ways, counters, timers, splits
13:02:44  <Phazorx> timer is most viable since cargo consumption is time absed
13:03:02  <V453000> well you could even just limit it with a long signal gap
13:03:29  <Phazorx> not easily probably
13:03:46  <V453000> depends how much do you need to limit it
13:03:51  <Phazorx> i cant say my idea of timer based drop is very space efficient but it was working
13:03:54  <V453000> and how far it is from the split :)
13:03:59  <Phazorx> well it is months
13:04:11  <Phazorx> i had timer trains on 50-150 days
13:04:15  <V453000> idk when we played with pbi it wasnt that strict
13:04:35  <V453000> secondary produced like 2000 max?
13:04:46  <Phazorx> much less than that
13:04:57  <Phazorx> 500-600 was max i saw with 3x-4x that in stockpile
13:05:19  <Phazorx> so if your train fits 600 cargo you only need one per month
13:05:26  <V453000> 900 for food plant
13:05:34  <Phazorx> i was using something else for sure
13:05:43  <V453000> uh well 600 train is a big thing
13:05:52  <Phazorx> 600 is top
13:06:18  <Phazorx> again it's not the number that is important
13:06:22  <V453000> what trian lenght is that
13:06:30  <Phazorx> i used 5
13:06:40  <V453000> @calc 600/8
13:06:40  <Webster> V453000: 75
13:06:47  <V453000> considering 8 wagons
13:07:23  <V453000> no train set has that :)
13:07:29  <Phazorx> i dont recall ukrs fitting mroe than 60 anything
13:07:48  <V453000> 60 is the most capacity that some sets have which is imo broken
13:07:58  <V453000> 40 I think is reasonable maximum
13:08:02  <Phazorx> but that si still 20-25 days worth of carrgo per train at max production
13:08:16  <V453000> maybe half in the days
13:08:21  <V453000> cargo isnt produced 1:1
13:08:34  <V453000> so it might accept, say, 800, produce 600
13:08:35  <Phazorx> and for 20 days worth of signal gap you need a lot of room
13:08:37  <V453000> idk what is the ratio
13:08:44  <V453000> yes that is a lot
13:08:50  <Phazorx> and you need to change that as consumption changes
13:08:53  <V453000> well a timer isnt a terribly big thing :)
13:09:00  <Phazorx> changing day counter on timer train is much more feasible
13:10:00  <V453000> hmm
13:10:05  <V453000> if only pbi industries didnt die :)
13:10:26  <Phazorx> there was a patch setting for that
13:10:40  <V453000> patch setting? :d
13:10:47  <V453000> like openttd sided?
13:11:32  <Phazorx> yup
13:11:42  <Phazorx> engine setting that stops industries from closing
13:12:04  <V453000> that is the only thing I seriously hate about pbi that makes me not play it
13:12:23  <V453000> or use farms/forests only but that is a bit ...
13:14:40  <Phazorx> well my point was that efficinecy as i see it is in network design, not necesasry junctions only, but something more complex than p2p lanes that go from one transfer point to another
13:14:40  <V453000> why dont you join us on the public server anyway? :D
13:14:50  <Phazorx> i'm at office atm actually
13:14:56  <V453000> oh :)
13:15:01  <Phazorx> and more insterested in coding rather than playing :)
13:15:24  <Phazorx> and i wanted to spend some time to educate myself on subject of routing and destinations in mdoern ottd
13:15:28  <V453000> well I spend more time with newgrf making than playing myself :)
13:15:47  <Phazorx> yeah, modding is mroe fun for a developer than playing usually
13:17:03  <V453000> well im not really a programmer so it is fun for me to make a train set as it directly influences the gameplay :)
13:17:50  <Phazorx> heh want an idea for a fancy grf?
13:19:51  <V453000> interest me :)
13:21:04  <Phazorx> it would be cool if electicity would become 'a virtual cargo' and would be required to use elrails/subway/trains, proportional to at least infrastructure (if not traffuc). So you could stick to steam/diesel... but if you want cool el/mono/mlev you would have to provide coal to power stations which in turn woudl produce power that you need
13:21:33  <V453000> ah yes :)
13:23:43  <Phazorx> it is possible now since infrastructure is properly accounted
13:24:04  <Phazorx> and btw, last feature i asked for only took like 8 eyars
13:34:00  <Phazorx> is there some wiki page for yacd
13:34:32  <Ammler> you didn't even search for it :-P
13:34:46  <Phazorx> i dont even know how to start now, threatened by not knowing whether there is a point in building the route because cargo could not be going to where i build it
13:34:49  <Ammler> I would guess, the wiki page is exactly called that way
13:35:01  <Phazorx> Ammler: i'm on ttfoums thread for it
13:35:29  <Ammler> @man yacd
13:35:30  <Webster> Search results for "yacd" - OpenTTD -
13:36:18  <Phazorx> i think i grabbed something wrong
13:36:26  <Phazorx> i dont even have new buttons on mapui
13:36:50  <Phazorx> version says g000cdb12-region
13:37:20  <Phazorx> and i cloned this
13:37:28  <planetmaker> err what?
13:37:33  <Ammler> hmm, but there was a yacd wiki page, wasn't?
13:37:47  <planetmaker> I've never seen that url, Phazorx
13:37:56  <Phazorx> it was linked in thread stating it's latest with michi_cc's patches
13:37:58  <Phazorx> Ammler: nope
13:38:08  <Phazorx> it is only mentioned on cargo dest page
13:38:56  <Phazorx> damn
13:39:01  <Phazorx> i fetched wrong branch
13:54:27  <Phazorx> hrm... okay even on correct branch i see no yacd stuff
13:54:39  <Phazorx> what is proper, updated repo?
13:55:29  <Ammler> Phazorx: yacd or carcodist?
13:55:36  <Phazorx> yacd
13:55:47  <Ammler> something on the michi_cc domain
13:56:36  <Ammler> which is linked at least from tt-forums
13:57:04  <Ammler> yacd is around 1 year old
13:57:05  <planetmaker> Phazorx: As I said before ;-)
13:57:08  <Phazorx> well it is updated more than a year ago
13:57:22  <Phazorx> that i mean
13:57:40  <Ammler> might be it, there were no new changes
13:58:02  <planetmaker> yes, that's yacd from its author
14:14:54  <Phazorx> hrm... is there more recent version by any chance?
14:15:03  <planetmaker> nope
14:15:09  <Phazorx> this one is not compatible with 1.2.X installs
14:15:12  <planetmaker> or not that I know
14:15:15  <Phazorx> cant see grfs
14:15:33  <planetmaker> symlink data to newgrfs
14:15:38  <Phazorx> and same cfg doesnt work
14:15:41  <planetmaker> or simply update it
14:15:47  <Phazorx> planetmaker: well i gotta unpack and rename them
14:15:48  <planetmaker> same cfg should work
14:15:53  <Phazorx> it doesnt see tars
14:15:58  <planetmaker> that's not true
14:16:08  <Phazorx> planetmaker: it works but it complains about unrecognized options
14:16:18  <planetmaker> "unrecognized options"?
14:16:30  <Phazorx> [2012-08-09 18:13:17] dbg: [misc] Invalid display option: identifier
14:16:45  <planetmaker> yes. But that doesn't matter
14:17:15  <Phazorx>
14:17:16  <Webster> Title: dpaste: #783826 (at
14:17:38  <Phazorx> all these grfs are seen by official 1.2 last trunk, and cargodist
14:17:41  <V453000> it could be for example incompatible with some newer newGRFs ... is incompatible with NUTS for example, I guess dutch train set would do the same
14:18:13  <Phazorx> well it doesnt know if it compatible it can not find them in ~/.openttd/content_download/data
14:18:17  <planetmaker> Phazorx: yes... symlink data to newgrf folder
14:18:32  <planetmaker> the folder structure / names changed
14:19:05  <Phazorx> will palne ranges work with this btw?
14:19:22  <planetmaker> only in 1.2
14:19:27  <Phazorx> damn
14:19:36  <Phazorx> i guess i need to find a working patch then
14:19:38  <Ammler> fork yacd and update it :-P
14:19:49  <planetmaker> my thought ^
14:19:57  <Phazorx> Ammler: i'd like to know what i am doing
14:20:01  <planetmaker> working patch? Just clone and merge with trunk
14:20:05  <Ammler> :-)
14:20:07  <Phazorx> at this point i wont even know if something is not working
14:20:20  <planetmaker> if you like, do the merge step-wise
14:20:30  <planetmaker> every 100, 250 or whatever revisions
14:22:37  <planetmaker> Phazorx: I don't think many crucial things changed on what yacd relies on
14:22:54  <planetmaker> so an update should not include a re-write
14:31:00  <Phazorx> /home/pkolla/source/yacd/trunk/src/economy.cpp: In function ‘void LoadUnloadVehicle(Vehicle*, StationCargoList::OrderMap (&)[32])’:
14:31:03  <Phazorx> /home/pkolla/source/yacd/trunk/src/economy.cpp:1342:42: error: ‘CargoHasDestinations’ was not declared in this scope
14:31:23  <Phazorx> welll no... i dont know what i am doing so i give up
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17:18:08  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Revision 701:fac78eec4794: make sure to initialize (most) properties to... XEddiX @
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17:34:00  <Brot6> cets: update from r700 to r701 done (195 warnings) -
17:36:12  <Brot6> cets: update from r700 to r701 done (195 warnings) -
17:38:41  <Brot6> worldairlinersset: update from r733 to r746 done (50 warnings) -
17:43:47  <Brot6> rust: compile of r23 still failed (#4102) -
17:44:31  <Brot6> make-nml: compile of r14 still failed (#4048) -
17:45:23  <Brot6> dach: compile of r54 still failed (#4104) -
18:01:05  <Brot6> zBase - Bug #4150 (Reopened): towns/temperate/1501-1506 XAlberthX @
18:25:01  <Brot6> zBaseBuild - Revision 108:b50ef095674c: Add: 1501-1506 and 1513-1518, offset-fix 1444-1446 XAlberthX @
18:52:00  <Rubidium> NML feature request: not providing a 32bpp replacement sprite for a particular block
18:52:57  <Rubidium> the tram sprites have some GUI stuff, which isn't drawn yet. But since it's one replacenew for the all tram graphics I can't partically add 32bpp sprites
18:55:02  <Brot6> zBase - Bug #4149: sprites in towns/temperate/1492-1495 unclear XAlberthX @
18:56:26  <Brot6> zBase - Bug #4151: weird named directories XAlberthX @
18:58:18  <Brot6> zBase - Bug #4151: weird named directories XAlberthX @
19:02:10  * Rubidium is trying to do some signals
19:18:06  <Alberth> pushed some more buildings
19:18:15  <Brot6> zBaseBuild - Revision 109:c20784067989: Add: towns/temperate/1492-1495 and towns/temperate/1596-1497... XAlberthX @
19:25:05  <Brot6> zBaseBuild - Revision 110:606bffce17b1: Add: signals XRubidiumX @
19:28:25  <Rubidium> another 384 sprites done ;)
19:34:27  <Alberth> that's a lot :)
19:35:02  <Rubidium> one template with (basically) 8 different sprites, multiplied by signal types
19:35:21  <Rubidium> so loads of copy-paste-change-offset
19:38:14  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Feature Request #4152 (New): Partial alternative sprites XRubidiumX @
19:44:53  <Rubidium> hmm...
19:46:04  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Feature Request #4152 (Closed): Partial alternative sprites XRubidiumX @
19:46:04  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Feature Request #4152 (Closed): Partial alternative sprites XRubidiumX @
19:50:59  <planetmaker> Rubidium: you can also specify offsets for replacenew
20:05:23  * Rubidium misses the stagger in the catenary
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20:39:32  <Brot6> zBaseBuild - Revision 111:ea477560a3e4: Add: Airport hangar XAlberthX @
20:39:32  <Brot6> zBuild - Revision 46:a8a88092276f: Change: update zbuild XAlberthX @
20:39:57  <Alberth> good night
20:42:21  <Rubidium> night Alberth
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21:07:34  <Brot6> zBaseBuild - Revision 112:d8abe8789e23: Add: catenary XRubidiumX @
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21:17:38  <Rubidium> Yexo: <- updated version if/when you're interested
21:18:00  <Rubidium> oh, was planetmaker interested in coding 32bpp as well? Then the line before is interesting for you as well
21:18:46  <Rubidium> anyhow, it's based on the sprite folders that exist and the sprite folders that are found in the nfo of the nmls, so if something is partially coded it doesn't show up
21:19:02  <planetmaker> yes... but not while I'll be in the Alps the next 6 days
21:20:44  <Rubidium> looks like there are a few false positives as well (materials and resources)
21:21:33  <Rubidium> time for some Zs though
21:21:48  <planetmaker> :-) enjoy your Zs :-)
21:22:14  <planetmaker> And have a nice week ... I'll be back shortly on Thursday, really back on Sunday night
21:57:53  <Brot6> zbuild: update from r45 to r46 done -
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