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Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 20th August 2012:
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07:38:57  <dihedral> oi
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08:48:36  <Ammler> planetmaker: your fork tests delay finishing nightly more and more :-P
09:07:13  <planetmaker> then... we should delete them
09:07:41  <planetmaker> but why do they delay it "more and more"? I didn't update them... thus their build time shouldn't change
09:14:17  <Ammler> hehe, sorry
09:17:22  <planetmaker> no need. It's a good call. they probably shouldn't build at all anyway
09:17:41  <Ammler> what are those cache files for btw.?
09:17:52  <Ammler> ogfx1_base.grf.cache
09:18:01  <planetmaker> it's nml generated files
09:18:08  <Ammler> ogfx1_base.grf.cacheindex
09:18:11  <planetmaker> sprite cache to speed up build time for the 2nd build
09:18:24  <planetmaker> irrelevant for the CF. But tremendously useful locally
09:18:27  <planetmaker> for re-builds
09:18:58  <Ammler> and not needed in the vcs histroy, right?
09:19:05  <planetmaker> no
09:19:12  <planetmaker> they must not be there
09:19:34  <planetmaker> it's like .o files for c/c++
09:19:55  <planetmaker> roughly speaking ;-)
09:23:50  <planetmaker> Ammler: is there a rhodecode-way to delete a project?
09:24:10  <Ammler> no
09:24:15  <Ammler> but you could delete repo
09:24:23  <Ammler> projects are in redmine
09:24:38  <Ammler> and you can't delete repos in redmine
09:24:53  <Ammler> so use redmine for projects, use rhodecode for repos
09:25:00  <Ammler> (or ssh)
09:26:08  <Ammler> btw. I learned that celery/rabbitmq is not needed to speedup rhodecode
09:26:16  <planetmaker> the repos fork-* are not in redmine, are they?
09:26:26  <Ammler> no clue
09:26:35  <Ammler> I would guess not, if you didn't add them
09:26:38  <planetmaker> I only created them with rhodecode and don't see them there
09:27:00  <planetmaker> no, I didn't. they're purely rhodecode test stuff. Thus no loss anywhere when they're gone. I'll ssh-delete them
09:27:55  <Ammler> well, or use rhodecode :-)
09:28:28  <Ammler> https://rhodecode.openttdcoop.org/_admin/repos
09:29:07  <planetmaker> hm. too late for one :-)
09:30:14  <planetmaker> hm, good interface :-)
09:31:12  <planetmaker> he... 404 when deleting a non-existing repo ;-)
09:31:31  <Brot6> DevZone Version 2 - Feature #4185 (New): split repo config out XAmmlerX @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/4185
09:56:55  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Revision 981:2bfa2918e192: Change: ignore nml generated cache files XAmmlerX @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/opengfx/repository/revisions/2bfa2918e192
10:12:34  <Ammler> I wonder, how I should proceed with devzone rework without the need to redo everything :-(
10:14:20  <planetmaker> hm... we need a custom redmine or rhodecode plug-in :D
11:13:24  <Ammler> planetmaker: the disadvantage of splitting out the config is your need of having revision dependend config
11:13:57  <planetmaker> no, not really. There's two things:
11:14:21  <planetmaker> a) build rules. They should be part of the repo. in form of the specs file(s)
11:14:45  <planetmaker> b) CF instructions when / if / how to build and where to backup. That should NOT be part of the repo(s)
11:15:08  <Ammler> well, part of the spec is for instance which nml version to sue
11:15:20  <planetmaker> that's part of the build rules
11:15:45  <Ammler> ah I see
11:16:20  <planetmaker> could it be part of the specs file?
11:16:30  <Ammler> yes
11:16:36  <Ammler> does not matter
11:17:08  <planetmaker> the specs file is understood as-is by the suse CF, right? Thus is of even more "interest" than just our CF in principle, right?
11:17:18  <Ammler> well, so basically split out backup.push, and the enabler
11:17:52  <Ammler> well, the spec is very devzone related, not useable for distro maintainers
11:17:58  <planetmaker> well... kinda, yes. One could then also put the spec file right in the main dir
11:18:04  <planetmaker> ok
11:18:06  <Ammler> that is why we have 2 different specs in opengfx
11:18:34  <Ammler> the devzone spec builds source bundles windows binaries etc.
11:22:28  <Ammler> also what we could use to manually trigger builds etc. are bookmarks, as those are not part of the histroy
11:25:31  <planetmaker> I don't understand what you mean now
11:26:17  <planetmaker> you suggest to use bookmarks to indicate build requests?
11:26:56  <Ammler> trigger builds indeed
11:28:38  <planetmaker> hm. Bookmarks nightly, release, push... but that doesn't solve the problem, if people want also a branch of a project built next to the default branch
11:31:12  <Ammler> why not?
11:31:29  <Ammler> there is limit what you bookmark
11:31:33  <Ammler> no*
11:35:08  <planetmaker> you cannot assign the bookmark 'nightly' to two different commits
11:36:02  <Ammler> you wouldn't assign nightly, that would be a automtic bookmark
11:36:29  <Ammler> you bookmark things like REL-<version>
11:37:25  <Ammler> the nightly scheduler would assign bookmark like NIGHTLY-<version>
11:37:51  <planetmaker> so... two bookmarks, like nightly-default and nightly-0.4?
11:37:56  <Ammler> no
11:38:02  <planetmaker> no? how then?
11:38:21  <Ammler> you don't add bookamrks for repetely things
11:38:36  <Ammler> that would be automtic thing done from scheduler
11:38:44  <planetmaker> and what is an "automatic bookmark"? How do I tell "build nightly" "don't build nightly"?
11:39:09  <Ammler> like said before, by splitted out config
11:40:03  <Ammler> or do you think, that would not be needed anymore?
11:41:01  <Ammler> hmm, what afout the "draft" branches or how that new feature is called?
11:41:10  <planetmaker> how do you want to convey the info which projects and which branches of a project should have the nightly build?
11:41:52  <planetmaker> the specs are in the repo. But not the "enable". So how to do that then?
11:42:23  <planetmaker> hm... actually. No. bookmarks is a bad idea. It's cloned, too.
11:42:39  <Ammler> really, than that is a change
11:42:59  <Ammler> since which version will bookmarks be cloned too?
11:43:25  <Ammler> ah well
11:51:48  <planetmaker> This behavior will change in Mercurial 2.3. Starting with that version, Mercurial will automatically import remote bookmarks on changesets you pull. That means that Bob can just run hg pull to get all incoming changesets and bookmarks from Carla."
11:52:00  <planetmaker> ^^ Ammler
11:52:28  <Ammler> [13:43] <Ammler> ah well == doesn't matter
11:52:53  <Ammler> we can use our own bookmarks
11:53:20  <Ammler> bookmarks brought me the idea
11:53:37  <planetmaker> how "our own"?
11:53:47  <planetmaker> I'll get them when I pull. Thus they're not local to devzone
11:54:16  <Ammler> we simply run a queue whith repo name, revision to build, path to publish
11:56:06  <Ammler> also I finally should strictly split scheduler and compiler
11:57:05  <planetmaker> and that queue is managed how?
11:57:36  <Ammler> like scheduler part of current scheduler.sh :-)
11:58:25  <Ammler> hmm, sad that is with bookmarks :-(
11:58:55  <Ammler> why they hell did they change that
11:59:03  <Ammler> -y
12:00:48  <Ammler> if that is synced like the rest of the repo, it could as good be part of the repo like branches and tags
12:01:27  <planetmaker> easier distributed development :-)
12:02:51  <Ammler> don't get it, why would you use bookmarks instead branches or tags now?
12:04:06  <planetmaker> for only temporarily intersting branches. Or like branches named 'pm', '4mmler' or so to indicate where we work
12:04:51  <Ammler> yes, but when you push those and I pull, I get your pm-mark, don't I?
12:05:01  <planetmaker> yes. that's the point
12:05:05  <Ammler> without me wanting ti
12:05:21  <Ammler> no, I would like to decide which bookmarks I need
12:05:34  <planetmaker> so you can hg up 'pm'; fix: "use consistent variable names with my new branch"; hg up '4mmler'
12:06:48  <Ammler> but if you want others to work on your branch, why don't you use branch name?
12:07:12  <planetmaker> maybe it's only 5 commits long? :-)
12:07:45  <Ammler> well, it doesn't matter, now we share all bookmarks too
12:07:57  <Ammler> I see no difference anymore between bookmark and branch
12:08:52  <Ammler> well, this is another case, it is just sad, they waste such a nice idea so fast :-(
12:09:27  <Ammler> does git in the meantime share all branches too automatically?
12:09:41  <Ammler> maybe that is the reason
12:11:55  <planetmaker> hg branch != git branch
12:12:22  <Ammler> yes, hg bookmark = git branch
12:12:29  <planetmaker> approx. yes
12:12:37  <Ammler> well, not anymore it seems
12:12:57  <Ammler> since hg branch = hg bookmark
12:14:02  <planetmaker> not at all. branches are persistent. bookmarks are not
12:14:15  <Ammler> :-)
12:14:40  <Ammler> hg up <branch> = hg up <bookmark>
12:15:12  <Ammler> only the head of branch matters
12:15:45  <Ammler> which is as much persistent as a bookmark
12:15:51  <planetmaker> only if you work on it yourself, I think
12:16:10  <planetmaker> hg up anybookmark != hg up rev(anybookmark)
12:16:37  <Ammler> hmm, what is the difference here?
12:16:54  <Ammler> not sure, what your right part does
12:17:00  <planetmaker> in the first case the bookmark will be advanced. In the latter it won't. iirc
12:17:16  <Ammler> and what will, instead?
12:17:19  <planetmaker> the right part is symbolically written. should be like hg up r456
12:17:41  <Ammler> ah thought you mean revmap
12:18:43  <Ammler> so you bookmark r456 with anybookmark -> hg up anybookmakr = hg up r456
12:19:22  <planetmaker> yes. But the bookmark will follow you, if you updated to that bookmark
12:19:34  <Ammler> hg bookmark -r456 anybookmark
12:19:39  <planetmaker> actually, I'm not sure whether it will update to branch tip, if you pull
12:19:42  <planetmaker> might or might not
12:20:22  <Ammler> which bookmark will follow?
12:22:03  <Ammler> michi_cc: how does git manage, which branch names you sync on clone?
12:22:55  <michi_cc> Ammler: By separating local and remote namespaces.
12:23:36  <Ammler> but you can pull others afterwards somehow, can't you?
12:24:16  <Ammler> (if you know the names at least)
12:24:39  <Ammler> hmm
12:25:36  <michi_cc> If I clone or fetch another repository, I get (by default) all branches the remote has as refs/remotes/<remote name>/<branch name> (where refs/remote can be omitted if the result is unambigous). My own branches live in refs/heads/<branch names> (refs/heads can again be omitted).
12:29:59  <Ammler> planetmaker: still also if bookmarks are synced, it would not really hurt that much, they are still not part of the history
12:32:04  <Ammler> hmm
12:45:10  <Ammler> planetmaker: you give them too much details, the issue is tags only
12:47:39  <planetmaker> you think?
12:48:37  <Ammler> yeah, we got too far, we wanted bascially just know, if a clone does sync bookmarks :-)
12:49:15  <Ammler> but in all cases, on a longer view, we need a vcs independent solution
12:50:14  <Ammler> hmm, we could simply remove the bookmark on server again, after we scheduled it
12:50:46  <Ammler> what would happen then, when the bookmark pusher pulls?
12:50:49  <planetmaker> and then? How do we know which we want to build tomorrow?
12:51:03  <planetmaker> he would find the bookmark deleted
12:51:14  <Ammler> would we push it again?
12:51:15  <planetmaker> if we delete it. Which is... unacceptable
12:51:34  <planetmaker> if we first pull, we pull the bookmark deleted. thus we won't push it again as we don#t have it anymore
12:51:53  <Ammler> you sill have it
12:52:05  <planetmaker> not, if I pull it as deleted...
12:52:41  <Ammler> ok, so this is a way, it does not matter if accpetalble or not
12:52:53  <Ammler> what matter is that it would not be part of hisotry anymore
12:53:00  <planetmaker> hm, maybe not. Not sure
12:53:16  <Ammler> how we schedule can then be adjusted everytime later
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14:36:34  <planetmaker> @op
14:36:38  <planetmaker> @deop
14:36:51  <planetmaker> @services op
14:36:51  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Webster
14:36:53  <planetmaker> @op
14:36:54  *** Webster sets mode: +o planetmaker
14:36:57  *** planetmaker sets mode: +b *!*@dynamic-adsl-78-12-101-60.clienti.tiscali.it
14:36:59  <planetmaker> @deop
14:36:59  *** Webster sets mode: -o planetmaker
14:39:31  <Ammler> or use @ban
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17:20:12  <Hirundo> Why o why is station acceptance updated when building station parts, but not when removing station parts (the update is done in the next periodic processing instead)
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17:21:20  <Alberth> hi
17:21:31  <planetmaker> hi Hirundo, Alberth
17:21:48  <planetmaker> very good question, Hirundo :-)
17:22:13  <Hirundo> hello Alberth, planetmaker
17:22:34  <planetmaker> I hope you had as enjoyable holidays as I had :-)
17:22:36  <Hirundo> Acceptance is very tricky, NewGRFs can change it depending on date
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17:24:54  <Alberth> evenink frosch
17:25:09  <frosch> hai albert :)
17:25:35  <Alberth> oh, sorry, you lost your digits
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17:33:58  <planetmaker> Hirundo, I forwarded a forum mail to you. Do you see why, in the 2nd part, in the quoted part, in the marked line by "<-- line 359" it fails? I don't
17:35:30  <Hirundo> I'll have a look
17:36:29  <planetmaker> afaik a default: should always work in switches, or am I mistaken?
17:38:50  <Hirundo> At least, he is missing SELF/PARENT
17:39:08  <Hirundo> Though that shouldn't cause the error
17:39:51  <planetmaker> he... I forgot that then ;-)
17:40:04  <planetmaker> it's code I wrote without writing a house grf to explain...
17:40:05  <Hirundo> With the current NML and documentation, I'd be surprised if he manages to produce a valid house (esp multitile) unless he has prior nfo knowledge
17:40:25  <planetmaker> it's from the coder (Yoshi) of the TARS town set
17:42:07  <Brot6> opengfx: update from r980 to r981 done - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/opengfx/nightlies/r981
17:42:08  <Hirundo> You can tell him, that he'd better not bother doing multitile houses, as he will need to redo them once NML has been changed
17:42:48  <Hirundo> Is the full source file available somewhere? Cause I can't spot an error in this section either, but there may be an error previously in the code
17:43:29  <planetmaker> I don't have the full code nor do I think it's available. I asked him for a full code to better identify the problem but didn't get it (yet?)
17:44:39  <planetmaker> though I was told the grf will be gpl'ed... but I guess I'll get it when I insist that I don't find the error :-)
17:44:50  <Brot6> worldairlinersset: update from r816 to r817 done - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/worldairlinersset/nightlies/r817
17:45:14  <planetmaker> oh... those who can read are at advantage. coming by e-mail...
17:45:44  <planetmaker> i'll cc you in the reply and ask him to cc you, too?
17:45:51  <Hirundo> hang on
17:46:01  <Hirundo> I guess, that default: in a switch block doesn't work (yet)
17:46:52  <Hirundo> I thought I had fixed that, but apparently only for graphics blocks
17:47:38  <Hirundo> planetmaker:  ^
17:47:55  <planetmaker> ok, thank you :-) Do you understand German, btw?
17:48:04  <planetmaker> Otherwise a cc is not of interest for you anyway ;-)
17:48:16  <Hirundo> A little
17:48:29  <planetmaker> (just noticed the language of those forum mails :D )
17:48:41  <Hirundo> Removing 'default:' and adding SELF should make the code work, methinks
17:49:38  <Brot6> make-nml: compile of r14 still failed (#4048) - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/make-nml/nightlies/ERROR/r14
17:50:18  <Hirundo> My German is sufficient to order bread and beer ;-)
17:50:31  <planetmaker> can I write that you "currently work on improving and simplifying support for multi-tile houses"?
17:50:56  <planetmaker> hehe. that's the important stuff!
17:50:57  <Hirundo> yes
17:51:20  <Ammler> it is hard to find a language, with you can't order a beer :-P
17:51:50  <planetmaker> Hirundo, shall I ask that he sends you the grf for testing (via e-mail?)
17:52:05  <Hirundo> you mean, to test my newnewhouse stuff?
17:52:09  <planetmaker> yes
17:52:25  <Ammler> he should publish it or not get any support
17:52:35  <planetmaker> he will publish it
17:52:53  <Ammler> you should not support private grfs
17:52:56  <planetmaker> but it's fair enough if he doesn't yet publish it. It's not yet done nor probably close
17:53:35  <Hirundo> If he agrees to send it, yes please
17:53:44  <Ammler> if you think so, I disagre :-)
17:54:09  <planetmaker> Ammler, you think I should enbargo a gpl project just because it's not yet published? I disagree.
17:54:39  <Ammler> you should not support private projects
17:55:00  <Ammler> but as said, it is up to you, I just disagree
17:55:14  <planetmaker> I will not support closed-source projects. I choose to ignore how they're develloped
17:55:59  <planetmaker> especially as I trust swissfan and yoshi to produce nice results - also going by what they post in both forums (tt-ms and tt-forums)
17:56:02  <Ammler> send him to simuscape :-P
17:56:08  <planetmaker> that's what you do
17:56:34  <andythenorth> that's dumb
17:56:38  <planetmaker> exactly
17:56:49  <andythenorth> yeah great move, continue fracturing the community
17:56:50  <andythenorth> :P
17:57:15  <andythenorth> ach nvm
17:57:18  <andythenorth> it's only toy trains :)
17:57:32  <planetmaker> I'm happy to support anyone who contributes. And I'm even more happy to support anyone, also with code who contributes open-source
17:57:48  <andythenorth> +1
17:57:59  <planetmaker> they chose the latter, thus I'm very happy to help them. However and whereever they create their grf
17:58:19  <planetmaker> and it's the best add for our way we can have and make
17:58:19  <Ammler> well, they don't :-)
17:58:23  <andythenorth> I'm also happy to not have this turned into 'tt-forums vs. simuscape' by peanut-throwing fuckheads who never contribute anything but drama
17:58:33  <planetmaker> ^^ +2 :-P
17:58:33  <Ammler> else you would not need to ask for source
17:59:01  <planetmaker> they didn't release yet any grf? So why should they publish half-baked stuff?
17:59:23  <andythenorth> it's a scale
17:59:23  <Ammler> my post about simuscape is around 3 months old and amount of 1-2, I would not call that drama
17:59:34  <andythenorth> Ammler: you are not the peanut-throwing fuckhead
17:59:40  <andythenorth> that much should be obvious ;)
18:00:17  <Ammler> I stated links to simuscape spam, that's all
18:00:17  <planetmaker> Ammler, I'm not registered at that site. But from what I see, a large chunk of grf devs went there. Which is sad. And at least partially caused by... bad moderation at tt-forums. Which makes it worse
18:00:30  <andythenorth> publish open-source -> good; develop entire grf in public -> better :)
18:00:30  <planetmaker> and it's not helped by this attitude, I'm afraid
18:00:38  <planetmaker> +1 @ andy
18:00:56  <andythenorth> although developing FIRS in public has got me a very bad rep :P
18:01:08  <planetmaker> I don't think you got a bad reputation :-)
18:01:16  <andythenorth> for changes maybe :P
18:01:18  <Ammler> well, which grf is from there?
18:01:25  * andythenorth was surprised how many grf devs went to simuscape
18:01:25  <Ammler> I am not aware of one
18:01:37  <Ammler> they just talk a lot
18:02:02  * andythenorth looks
18:02:09  <Ammler> maybe you cent canadian sets in 5 years
18:02:14  <Ammler> get*
18:02:19  <planetmaker> none publicly released that I know. But we shall see. I hear of things released there behind closed doors. Which anyway won't make our work easier on openttd itself
18:02:29  <Ammler> and dbset in another 10 years
18:02:43  <andythenorth> OzTrans, snail, swissfan91, yoshi, leanden, wallyweb
18:02:53  <Ammler> planetmaker: that is what I meant with don't support
18:03:06  * andythenorth spots an interesting choice of moderators for those forums, unconvinced that's wise :o
18:03:08  <andythenorth> but nvm
18:03:09  <Ammler> like you supported canadian set in past
18:03:16  <planetmaker> andythenorth, which?
18:03:18  <Ammler> just ask frosch/rubi about sucht things
18:04:51  <andythenorth> Ammler: you're very correct
18:05:00  <andythenorth> but correct isn't always the right thing to do :|
18:05:17  <Ammler> true too :-)
18:05:20  <andythenorth> I have no argument against your points
18:05:25  <andythenorth> except reality :(
18:05:38  <andythenorth> we have a bunch of people who want to do it differently
18:05:48  <andythenorth> and we fracture the community or deal with it :P
18:06:08  <andythenorth> "vi is better than emacs!"
18:06:10  <andythenorth> :P
18:06:27  <planetmaker> For me the important thing really is the floss license. That's what matters for community contribution. Where it comes from... much less important.
18:06:53  <andythenorth> as long as source is reliably available
18:06:55  <planetmaker> I don't know nor care how TTRS was done. Nor TBRS. But I'm free to continue them. That counts
18:06:58  <planetmaker> yeah
18:08:18  <Rubidium> what canadian set?
18:08:44  <planetmaker> :-)
18:08:59  <andythenorth> the canadian set I am filing a bug report for
18:09:07  <andythenorth> and inviting OzTrans to irc to discuss
18:09:08  <andythenorth> :P
18:09:46  <planetmaker> :D
18:09:58  <Ammler> Rubidium: you never got prerelease canset grfs for debugging?
18:10:30  <Ammler> or you made your own canset derivates?
18:11:00  <Rubidium> I don't care for that thing at all since its developers went mental for not implementing a feature request "immediately"
18:11:00  <andythenorth> I wish OzTrans would just GPL the damn thing so it could be distributed
18:11:03  <andythenorth> but hmm
18:11:27  <Rubidium> and why would I make a derivative of it?
18:12:01  <Ammler> it is long ago, I don't remember it anymore...
18:12:12  <andythenorth> painful episode
18:12:22  <andythenorth> probly my favourite trainset though
18:12:23  <andythenorth> that or NARS 2
18:12:56  <Ammler> well, he might be the reason, DanMacK left
18:13:17  <andythenorth> that and the painful issues with simuscape flames and copyright and such
18:13:26  <andythenorth> but also Dan took on too much
18:13:31  <andythenorth> and he lost his job
18:13:42  <andythenorth> his old job gave him time to sprite
18:13:48  <andythenorth> currently he is doing model trains
18:14:00  <Ammler> for work?
18:14:01  <planetmaker> :-O
18:14:37  <Ammler> or you mean, he does model instead sprites?
18:15:07  <andythenorth> model instead of sprites yes
18:15:14  <andythenorth> :)
18:19:45  <frosch> well, it's good to separate gpl and non-gpl sprites
18:20:03  <frosch> so, if two forums archieve that, it can save boring discussions
18:20:50  <planetmaker> it doesn't though as it seems... they'll have gpl over there, too ;-)
18:21:42  <frosch> really? ok, maybe the drag over some of those boring discussions then :p
18:22:08  <planetmaker> :-)
18:22:30  <planetmaker> well, I trust yoshi and swissfan to make the tars stuff gpl. And they allegedly are over there. So...
18:23:26  <Alberth> that's good, they need lots of discussion and thinking about licenses
18:24:11  <planetmaker> :-)
18:24:12  * andythenorth is seriously considering offering a €50 prize for a GS competition.  Is that bad?
18:24:55  <planetmaker> Would be interesting to see the amount of participation and the results. Quite honestly, would be nice
18:25:05  <andythenorth> we'd need some rules
18:25:30  <planetmaker> mostly a sufficiently exact defined goal
18:25:38  <andythenorth> yes
18:25:40  <planetmaker> and I'd set the rule to license it glp 2+
18:25:53  <andythenorth> given
18:26:13  <planetmaker> no resort to law-decisions, last decision on you
18:26:17  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Feature #4186 (New): Switch block default XHirundoX @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/4186
18:26:18  <planetmaker> which is ultimate
18:26:34  <planetmaker> deadline is XX
18:26:47  <planetmaker> I guess 3 month time frame would be nice
18:27:10  <frosch> andythenorth: any particular goal in mind? i might add 50€ :)
18:27:15  <planetmaker> Would allow for announcement, people getting excited and involved, even if they're not yet quite ready
18:27:30  <planetmaker> I might add to the price pool, too :-)
18:27:50  <andythenorth> frosch: right now I want GS that provide for 1-3 hours of rewarding play
18:27:53  <planetmaker> 100€ 1st price, 50€ 2nd price :-)
18:28:05  <planetmaker> that's a nice goal :-)
18:28:11  <frosch> yup
18:28:19  <planetmaker> open enough which allows for many ways
18:28:27  <andythenorth> also I want it to not be specific to certain newgrfs
18:28:34  <andythenorth> nor a fixed scenario (I think)
18:28:41  <planetmaker> ok, put that into the rules
18:28:48  <planetmaker> as two separate rules
18:29:12  <frosch> a fixed scenario might be interesting neverhteless
18:29:12  <andythenorth> this may sound odd, but I am happy if a specific map seed has to be used
18:29:26  <andythenorth> I am also happy if certain difficulty / game options are required
18:29:35  <frosch> mapseed makes no sense
18:29:43  <frosch> either scenario, or not
18:29:46  <andythenorth> k
18:29:49  <frosch> mapseed is unreliable
18:29:51  <andythenorth> wasn't sure about that
18:30:05  <andythenorth> scenario imposes newgrfs :|
18:30:31  <frosch> scenario makes for more specific detailed gaols
18:30:39  <frosch> no-scenario can only be quite general goals
18:30:57  <frosch> if there would be enough participants, one could run two categories
18:31:04  <frosch> but, i doubt there would be enough :)
18:31:55  <planetmaker> I fear so... so maybe no rule about (no) scenario. And leave it to the jury do decide and weigh the difference accordingly?
18:32:05  <planetmaker> With the condition "if scenario, then bananas newgrfs"?
18:32:09  <Terkhen> meh
18:32:11  <andythenorth> nah
18:32:14  <andythenorth> no scenarios
18:32:15  <Terkhen> I truly should start coding the new scenario format
18:32:23  <andythenorth> scenarios impose newgrf :P
18:32:23  <Terkhen> but I have no motivation for coding at all :P
18:32:27  <planetmaker> :-(
18:32:58  <planetmaker> where did it go? Lost to job coding?
18:35:16  <andythenorth> motivation goes up, down :P
18:35:24  <andythenorth> maybe up again
18:35:27  <planetmaker> but we were at a GS contest...
18:35:39  <planetmaker> so you say "no scenarios", right?
18:35:40  <andythenorth> no scenarios then
18:35:47  <frosch> i would not add a no-scenario rule
18:35:47  <andythenorth> I don't want newgrfs imposed on me
18:35:50  <frosch> just leave it open
18:36:04  <frosch> if there are good ones for both, we can still split the price
18:36:05  <andythenorth> who votes on winner?
18:36:07  <frosch> or double :p
18:36:07  <andythenorth> community?
18:36:09  <andythenorth> panel?
18:36:13  <planetmaker> panel
18:36:25  <andythenorth> simple apache voting rules?
18:36:28  <andythenorth> or we debate it?
18:36:28  <andythenorth> :P
18:36:36  <planetmaker> what's apache voting rules?
18:36:59  <andythenorth> +1 etc
18:37:00  <andythenorth> hang on
18:37:16  <andythenorth> http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html
18:37:17  <Webster> Title: Apache Voting Process (at www.apache.org)
18:37:19  <frosch> there should be no criterions other than "it works", "it's fun", "it's innovative"
18:37:20  <andythenorth> saves endless debate
18:38:59  <planetmaker> agreed. Keeps it simple
18:39:56  <planetmaker> while "community" sounds great, I think it's a bad way. We rather establish a nice panel
18:40:22  <andythenorth> ok
18:40:31  <frosch> so, what to do with zuu? :p put him on panel, or let him compete :)
18:40:40  <planetmaker> his choice?
18:40:53  <planetmaker> after all we can't force anyone either way :-)
18:41:07  <frosch> :p
18:41:24  <planetmaker> tbh, I thought five minutes ago like "hm... Zuu probably will win both categories" :-P
18:41:37  <Zuu> I haven't been following the discussion here, but it seems you have continued the GS discussion here from #openttd while I have been busy tring to cook togeather a GS :-)
18:41:39  <frosch> just my though :)
18:42:01  <planetmaker> Zuu, we got the idea to hold a GS competition
18:42:12  <Rubidium> obviously you need CS, JB and SF
18:42:17  <planetmaker> and wondered whether you'd compete or be in the jury ;-)
18:42:18  <frosch> i did not notice it started in #openttd :p
18:42:25  <Zuu> planetmaker: Nice idea
18:42:37  <planetmaker> 50 ... 150€ price mony :O
18:42:46  <planetmaker> 3 month time frame
18:42:54  <Rubidium> price ponies! ;)
18:42:57  <Zuu> Altohugh the judging will be far more subjective than in the AI competition.
18:43:06  <planetmaker> yes, likely
18:43:06  <Zuu> If the competition is to write a GS
18:43:15  <andythenorth> there will be some criteria
18:43:21  * andythenorth ponders
18:43:24  <planetmaker> which? :-)
18:43:33  <andythenorth> - should have bronze, silver, gold win conditions?
18:43:40  <andythenorth> +1 / -1 ?
18:43:41  <frosch> 1. it works, 2. it's fun, 3. it's innovative
18:43:56  <andythenorth> frosch: would you rather keep it quite open?
18:43:59  <planetmaker> ^^ highly subjective. But yes, I don't know better. Given our goal
18:44:18  <frosch> andythenorth: yes, i don't except many competitors, so i want every idea
18:44:24  <andythenorth> hmm
18:44:24  <andythenorth> ok
18:44:32  <andythenorth> not against that
18:44:33  <planetmaker> of "fun playing for a few hours" and "innovative concept" and "works for me"
18:44:55  <frosch> otoh, some restrictions might suggest some idea, instead of "do what you want"
18:44:59  <andythenorth> yes
18:45:16  <andythenorth> innovation is a funny word
18:45:34  <andythenorth> 1. it works 2. it's fun
18:45:47  <andythenorth> (even writing any GS is pretty innovative right now)
18:45:58  <planetmaker> :-)
18:46:04  <Zuu> SCP may mave ended up being inovative if it had been submitted to the competition without even being particular fun to play against.
18:46:09  <andythenorth> 3. it provides one or more win conditions for gameplay that lasts around 3 hours ?
18:46:44  <planetmaker> Hirundo, you'll get an e-mail with sources for tars houses later today
18:46:53  <frosch> yeah, giving the timeframe for the game like "3 hours" is a good idea
18:46:55  <planetmaker> when the new ground sprites are added :D
18:47:01  <Ammler> prizes are bad idea, imo
18:47:32  <Ammler> could get people to keep things closed until someone makes such tournament
18:47:47  <frosch> how did the ai competition work?
18:47:57  <frosch> wasn't there the price some job or trainee?
18:48:21  <frosch> it attracted a lot back then
18:48:25  <planetmaker> TB had a semi-automated script which had them compete eachother on somewhat pre-defined map. Gaining points for their reached values
18:48:41  <planetmaker> and yes... iirc there was some company behind it... possibly
18:48:55  <Ammler> wasn't that seperated
18:49:08  <Rubidium> the thing with the company was totally separate
18:49:36  <Rubidium> though they had a quite large amount of price money
18:49:45  <Rubidium> (or is it prize?)
18:49:49  <frosch> what offered the company exactly?
18:49:54  <Ammler> went something back to openttd from there?
18:49:57  <frosch> is there some old news post?
18:50:05  <Alberth> iirc some computer stuff
18:50:15  <Rubidium> frosch: look for tjip openttd and challenge
18:50:16  <Alberth> frosch: yep, I translated it
18:51:07  <Rubidium> they had a fixed rule: make as much company value in 10 years, which can be easily judged
18:51:41  <Alberth> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=36059&hilit=rondje+om+de+kerk
18:51:42  <Webster> Title: Transport Tycoon Forums View topic - Programmer Challenge: create an OpenTTD AI (at www.tt-forums.net)
18:53:35  <frosch> so, hardware for 2500€, and a clear win criterion
18:53:47  <frosch> but yes, we might run into trouble with a judge
18:54:11  <Rubidium> Olivia! ;)
18:54:26  <frosch> already the last title game competition caused some trouble, when someone did not win with the game designed by clear winning strategies from past years
18:54:37  <Ammler> well, if you give prizes, sponsors can be judges
18:55:00  <Ammler> or rather "have to be"
18:55:04  <frosch> who is olivia?
18:55:18  <Rubidium> Olivia Rudge ;)
18:55:26  <planetmaker> :D
18:55:28  <frosch> ah, about 4 years old?
18:55:34  <Rubidium> I'd reckon less
18:55:59  <frosch> won't that end in which one makes most toot toot?
18:56:29  <planetmaker> brb, short food gathering at local store ;-)
18:56:32  <andythenorth> I can offer judges in that case :
18:56:33  <andythenorth> :P
18:57:24  <andythenorth> we probably need some legal crap
18:57:27  <andythenorth> if it's a contest
18:58:15  <frosch> hmm, i am still worried whether we would get partipciants at all
18:58:35  <frosch> that tjip thing had advertising outside of ottd scope
18:58:45  <frosch> i.e. around students, not around tt-forums :)
18:59:29  <frosch> but 150€ would look weird for a more public challenge
19:00:35  <andythenorth> frosch: one way to find out
19:00:49  <andythenorth> importantly, don't put the most likely submitters on the judging panel :P
19:01:01  <frosch> so, no zuu :p
19:01:18  <Terkhen> planetmaker: a mix of "lots of coding at work" and "no fun openttd games recently", I guess
19:01:21  <frosch> we can let him win, if he brings a cake to the 25k party
19:01:23  <frosch> :p
19:01:48  <andythenorth> Terkhen: coding openttd is a lot more fun than playing openttd, for me :D
19:02:05  <frosch> andythenorth: so, zuu on board might be better :) less obvious winners
19:02:22  <frosch> and he can give everyone support
19:02:30  <andythenorth> he
19:02:32  <andythenorth> ok
19:03:25  <Zuu> :-)
19:03:49  <Terkhen> andythenorth: I always mixed playing and coding
19:03:54  <Terkhen> each thing motivates the other :
19:03:55  <Terkhen> :P
19:04:24  <frosch> you mean, gameplay is interrupted constantly by fixing bugs? :)
19:04:58  <frosch> i have a rule: if i really want to play, don't try something new :p
19:05:00  <andythenorth> my gameplay is interrupted by total boredom :)
19:05:58  <andythenorth> due to lack of goal
19:06:06  <andythenorth> hence GS ideas :)
19:06:26  <andythenorth> this won't be fixed by roadtypes and other such things that go under 'moar features' :P
19:06:32  <frosch> so, is that a definite win condition? "make andy happy"?
19:06:39  <andythenorth> dunno
19:06:41  <frosch> or is there the risk that noone wins? :p
19:06:42  <andythenorth> probly hard :P
19:07:27  <andythenorth> the only other interesting thing is YACD, and that mostly because it totally changed gameplay ;)
19:08:04  * andythenorth does some work
19:15:12  <Terkhen> frosch: indeed, or by new features to code
19:15:28  <Terkhen> but the latter are more scarce now
19:15:45  <Alberth> let me find a nice scenario for Terkhen with broken newgrfs :p
19:16:29  <Terkhen> does it have any kind of goals? :P
19:16:55  <Terkhen> since YACD is not an option, I have been waiting for some interesting GS
19:17:00  <Alberth> yes, push you into a coding state :p
19:17:13  <Terkhen> I meant for me as a player :)
19:17:51  <andythenorth> Terkhen: I have loads of features to code :(
19:18:00  <Alberth> I had a bit expected that someone would use the cargo monitoring thing to make a nice GS, but that has not happened yet
19:18:02  <andythenorth> not all of them big :P
19:18:22  <andythenorth> I wonder if most of the people who can make good GS are currently trying to make newgrfs :P
19:18:45  <Terkhen> Alberth: me too
19:18:57  <andythenorth> isn't that the $someone problem?
19:18:58  <andythenorth> :P
19:19:06  <andythenorth> don't we have to make that GS ourselves?
19:19:20  <andythenorth> maybe it should be less chat, more GS code :)
19:19:29  <andythenorth> then we test it on an MP server
19:19:44  <andythenorth>  but - because everyone is know grown up - we make GS that can be played in 1-3 hours
19:19:50  <andythenorth> because everyone has jobs more or less
19:19:59  <Alberth> one of the problems is that it is in 1.3/trunk
19:23:22  <frosch> and everyone plays chill pp?
19:25:06  <andythenorth> not me :)
19:25:43  <Terkhen> if at least it was updated... but playing an ancient versions helps no one wrt development
19:26:31  * andythenorth wants to play competitive MP more
19:26:38  <andythenorth> but not for very long
19:28:24  <Yexo> that reminds me, I should update the h2h patch
19:36:44  <andythenorth> what does it do?
19:38:10  <Alberth> multi-player (head-to-head), each player get 1/2 of the map (and both halves are the same)
19:38:27  <andythenorth> interesting
19:38:45  * andythenorth fancies a fog of war patch for MP
19:38:50  <andythenorth> and maybe catapults :P
19:39:21  * planetmaker is back and reads back
19:39:22  <Alberth> fog of war for train path finding :p
19:40:14  <planetmaker> 21:35 frosch: [21:01:21] we can let him win, if he brings a cake to the 25k party  <-- hehe :-)
19:42:08  <planetmaker> 21:35 Alberth: [21:18:00] I had a bit expected that someone would use the cargo monitoring thing to make a nice GS, but that has not happened yet  <-- I expect that to actually happen as silently and off-the-scene as usage of the admin port
19:42:10  <Yexo> do we have a location already?
19:42:41  <planetmaker> used in a number of servers but not released anywhere except under the counter, if you know the right person
19:42:55  <planetmaker> I'm something like sad and mad about that :-(
19:44:11  <planetmaker> we don't exactly have a location yet... Yexo
19:48:35  <andythenorth> Terkhen: how 'new' is new scenario format?  Incremental, or total rethink?
19:49:54  <planetmaker> rather new
19:50:14  <planetmaker> http://wiki.openttd.org/Terkhen/Scenario_format
19:50:18  <Yexo> hmm, I don't have a nice place outside like planetmaker, but I could host max 15 people or so
19:51:08  <planetmaker> 500 commits... when will that be?
19:51:38  <Rubidium> @commit 24000
19:51:49  <Yexo> r24000 was march 1
19:52:08  <Rubidium> so... in ~6 months?
19:52:27  <Yexo> around 1.3 :)
19:52:52  <andythenorth> ah
19:52:56  <Rubidium> there'll be so little new things I wonder whether 1.3 makes much sense
19:52:58  <andythenorth> png based map layers :)
19:53:14  <Terkhen> andythenorth: yes
19:53:21  <andythenorth> Rubidium: I could suggest some features :P
19:53:39  <Terkhen> the format still has some rough edges but it has been discussed a lot already
19:53:41  <Rubidium> andythenorth: you first need to fix some bugs
19:54:02  * andythenorth is simply avoiding OS X > 10.6 instead :P
19:54:09  <andythenorth> seriously
19:54:11  <Rubidium> e.g. like some persons can't be arsed to do any development
19:54:27  <andythenorth> meh
19:54:30  <andythenorth> it's too complete :P
19:54:30  <Zuu> andythenorth: I have a first version of a GS that give you a gold, silver or bornze medal.
19:54:32  <planetmaker> well, I can host it again. Last time we were like... 12?. But inside 15 people will already be interesting though feasible for a party
19:54:36  <andythenorth> Zuu: \o/
19:54:51  <andythenorth> Rubidium: rm some stuff
19:55:05  <andythenorth> programmers like big gaps
19:55:28  <andythenorth> not incremental twiddling on a mature / stuffed codebase
19:55:36  <Rubidium> well, my interest in OpenTTD programming is a black hole
19:55:44  <andythenorth> no light escapes?
19:55:56  <Rubidium> not yet
19:55:59  <Zuu> one problem, it always picks passengers + mail + goods, but it might be that I need to do a trick to randomize the random numbers in GS.
19:56:02  <Rubidium> i.e. no light at the end of the tunnel
19:56:10  <andythenorth> zero interest?
19:56:16  <andythenorth> or none that escapes to the world?
19:56:27  <andythenorth> :P
19:56:39  <andythenorth> hmm
19:56:46  <Rubidium> fiddling with zbase is somewhat fun, but the rest barely
19:56:47  <andythenorth> perhaps a constant unvarying level of interest :P
19:56:59  <Zuu> Oh, it is actually good. I was using the 'reset' command instead of 'newgame'
19:56:59  <Rubidium> just look at the vast amount of stuff I did to trunk lately
19:57:39  <andythenorth> put it into maintenance mode, start something new
19:57:43  <andythenorth> openttd 2!
19:57:48  <andythenorth> the version where we got it right!
19:58:01  <andythenorth> in technicolour!
19:58:25  <Zuu> Is "CargoGoal" a good name of the GS?
19:58:54  <andythenorth> pretty good
19:58:58  <andythenorth> or CargoMonster
19:59:01  <Rubidium> nocargoal ;)
19:59:05  <andythenorth> or that
19:59:15  <Zuu> :-)
19:59:24  <Rubidium> after all, the goal is to not have cars
19:59:25  <Zuu> Or just CarGoal
19:59:36  <Zuu> NoCarGal
19:59:41  <Zuu> NoCarGoal
19:59:50  <andythenorth> done deal
20:00:51  <Rubidium> yet unother cargo <some word starting with a K>
20:00:55  <Alberth> makes me think of the red-ish funny lazy cat, can't remember its name currently :)
20:01:21  <andythenorth> garfield?
20:01:37  <andythenorth> hmm
20:01:39  <andythenorth> where is this branch hiding
20:01:42  * andythenorth is no good with svn
20:01:43  <Alberth> that's the one :)
20:01:54  <andythenorth> and our work repos do not have a good online view
20:01:57  <andythenorth> for hysterical raisins
20:01:59  <Alberth> svn ls <path>
20:02:11  <andythenorth> tried that
20:02:22  <andythenorth> result suggests the branch is not committed :P
20:02:41  <Alberth> then it's not a branch :p
20:03:06  <andythenorth> ah
20:03:08  <Alberth> svn info on the directory?
20:03:11  <Zuu> andythenorth: would you like to test it ahead or shall I just put it on bananas?
20:03:21  <andythenorth> he's branched the packages but not the buildout
20:03:28  <andythenorth> have to make my own buildout :P
20:03:37  <andythenorth> Zuu: I'll happilly test
20:03:46  <andythenorth> bananas - up to you
20:03:52  <andythenorth> how long is the gameplay (years?)
20:04:35  <planetmaker> 13.5 minutes
20:04:44  <planetmaker> hm, per year
20:06:02  <Zuu> andythenorth: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=62212
20:06:03  <Webster> Title: Transport Tycoon Forums View topic - [GS] NoCarGoal (at www.tt-forums.net)
20:06:18  <Zuu> andythenorth: without changing the config it is 100 years.
20:06:24  <Zuu> But you can set the GS params.
20:07:07  <Ammler> he, btw. simuscape offline again?
20:07:27  <andythenorth> not for me
20:07:37  <Ammler> I just get a generic hosting page
20:08:09  <andythenorth> Zuu: testing now :)
20:08:25  <Zuu> btw you need SuperLib 25 if you haven't got it yet
20:09:11  <andythenorth> first I need openttd to see the GS :)
20:09:13  <Ammler> ah, .net
20:09:22  <andythenorth> do I need to untar?
20:09:45  *** LordAro has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
20:09:51  <Ammler> well, still same private as some months ago, thought they plan to make a public area
20:10:07  <andythenorth> no all private
20:10:10  <andythenorth> to reduce spam
20:10:26  <Yexo> there is a "public arena" that is visible for all registered users
20:10:49  <Rubidium> thus not public
20:10:55  <andythenorth> ho
20:10:57  <Zuu> andythenorth: I put it on bananas now
20:11:05  <Zuu> I've*
20:11:08  <Zuu> even
20:11:11  <andythenorth> right so which newgrfs, what map size, what start year?
20:11:18  <Yexo> Zuu: ^^ seen the private chat?
20:11:20  <andythenorth> and who else is playing? :)
20:11:41  <Zuu> Btw, you probably want to tweak the settings as currently it is probably very easy.
20:11:46  <Zuu> 100 000 units on 100 years.
20:11:49  <andythenorth> only testing will show that :)
20:11:57  <planetmaker> woot, Zuu? We still discuss the competition and you finish it?! :-P
20:12:01  <andythenorth> maybe I should try it with PBI :P
20:12:10  <Alberth> Zuu: default easy is good :)
20:12:27  <andythenorth> anyone want to make a quick scenario?
20:12:30  <andythenorth> random map etc
20:12:44  <andythenorth> preferred if it mostly uses nightly editions of my newgrfs  :P
20:12:49  <andythenorth> CHALLENGE!
20:15:33  <Ammler> oh, simuscape has also German section, I should ask in tt-ms, who splitted that community
20:18:19  <frosch> i cannot think of more than two people who might be posting there
20:20:46  * andythenorth is going to try 30 years of NoCarGoal
20:21:13  <andythenorth> hmm 100,000 units per cargo
20:21:22  <andythenorth> Zuu: that's all time? not per year?
20:22:22  *** ODM has quit IRC
20:23:02  <Alberth> I tread it as such
20:23:07  <Alberth> -t
20:23:58  * andythenorth plays
20:25:00  <andythenorth> Mail, Plant Fibers, Stone :P
20:25:05  <andythenorth> wtf, Mail :)
20:25:11  <andythenorth> that's going to suck
20:25:15  <andythenorth> I have no trams, no trucks :P
20:28:01  <Alberth> what year did you start in?
20:29:33  <andythenorth> 1905
20:29:55  <andythenorth> can trains 1.1a, FIRS tip, HEQS tip, FISH 2 tip, CHIPS 1.0, Expensive short slow bridges
20:29:58  <andythenorth> 512x256
20:30:01  <andythenorth> 30 years
20:33:14  <andythenorth> Zuu: is there a count of current transported amounts anywhere?
20:33:26  <Zuu> There is a yearly news message
20:33:37  <andythenorth> ok
20:33:39  <andythenorth> thanks
20:33:40  <Zuu> It appears in the beginning of january
20:33:51  <Zuu> It belongs to the general category.
20:36:32  <andythenorth> hmm
20:36:36  <andythenorth> already this is interesting
20:36:39  <andythenorth> with only 30 years
20:36:43  <andythenorth> I have to make money fast
20:36:52  <andythenorth> because some of the required cargos need long routes
20:36:59  <andythenorth> and I can't afford to build them :P
20:37:38  <Alberth> so a 100 000 units may be a bit large-ish :)
20:37:58  <andythenorth> could be tight
20:38:06  <andythenorth> one of my cargos is farm sourced
20:38:29  <andythenorth> and I only have 200t per month on the map right now
20:38:44  <andythenorth> probably going to fail that :)
20:40:01  <andythenorth> hmm
20:40:13  <andythenorth> do I normally get threatened with bankruptcy in single player? :o
20:43:07  <Alberth> yep you do
20:43:23  <Alberth> not sure if you ever get bancrupted though :)
20:44:05  <Alberth> but keeping a positive money value may be useful :)
20:55:46  <andythenorth> he
20:55:54  <andythenorth> I'm not even going to get close to this goal I think
20:59:29  <andythenorth> challenge for tomorrow
20:59:30  <andythenorth> bed
20:59:40  <andythenorth> Zuu: looking good though, thanks
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