Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 20th January 2013:
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08:05:26  *** ODM has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
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08:52:00  *** Alberth has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
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10:05:29  <Alberth> another andy here!  hi :)
10:12:08  <planetmaker> :-)
10:12:46  <planetmaker> Alberth, is there a way to test your translation service? I mean... how I could quickly 'check out what it does'?
10:14:15  <Alberth> check-out, install python 3,  ./run
10:14:27  <planetmaker> oh, python 3?
10:14:43  <planetmaker> but that sounds easy enough. thanks :-)
10:14:53  <Alberth> open a web-browser at http://localhost:8000/
10:14:59  <planetmaker> I must have overlooked the ./run script
10:15:18  <Alberth> but it's green! :)
10:17:03  <planetmaker> indeed it is
10:17:37  <Alberth> lol
10:17:57  * planetmaker needs the button "create new translation" :D
10:18:30  <Alberth> no, you need the "upload translation file" function ;)
10:18:56  <planetmaker> or that :-)
10:19:14  <Alberth> manually writing the data file is very cumbersome, I found :)
10:19:19  <planetmaker> hm... I managed to get a 500... :-O
10:19:43  <Alberth> oh, that's very possible
10:19:51  <planetmaker>
10:21:53  <Alberth> hmm, it works here
10:23:09  <Alberth> but it is mostly aimed as proof of concept, I think
10:23:18  <planetmaker> it initially worked here, too
10:23:35  <planetmaker> but I went back and forth a bit in the browser... random clicks :D
10:24:36  <Alberth> ah, random clicking works :p
10:24:39  <planetmaker> ah, yes. start. firs->dutch. go back in browser. choose english. go back. choos dutch. see fail
10:25:40  <Alberth> I am pretty sure the current pages are not what you want to see
10:26:18  <planetmaker> they're committed language files in your repo, I know :-)
10:27:08  <Alberth> I mean, as translator, are you interested to see all strings?
10:27:37  <planetmaker> That depends
10:28:24  <planetmaker> There are translation tasks where an overview is quite nice to keep things consistent. Or to do some c&p
10:29:15  <planetmaker> generally I find current OpenTTD's web translator UI badly designed wrt the extremely limited display capability of strings
10:29:28  <Alberth> I have never seen it :)
10:29:43  <planetmaker> Most important change there I can imagine is that it always displays the full string to be translated and the full translation of the string I translate
10:29:56  <Alberth> some screenshots would be great
10:30:26  <planetmaker> I'll create some for you
10:30:41  <Alberth> yes, I have the information like the script I made in mind to display when translating a single string
10:30:48  <planetmaker> I could also give you a translator account for Dutch though ;-)
10:31:16  <Alberth> nah, others are much better in Dutch than me :)
10:31:31  <planetmaker> well. for you to see how it works / looks
10:31:50  <planetmaker> sometimes that's easier than screenshots
10:33:06  <Alberth> I agree, but it's too early now; I first want to have solid file transfer
10:34:04  <Alberth> then I probably have to consider what services to offer precisely, and start version 2 :)
10:39:41  <planetmaker> some screenshots
10:40:13  <planetmaker> naming of files should give away what view it constitutes
10:43:28  <planetmaker> note there especially the fixed-width of the content (only shown in one image) which wastes most screen real-estate which would dearly be needed
10:43:35  <Alberth> ha, I understand now what happens :)
10:44:20  <planetmaker> and the limit to one-line text display which is a bad choice from that POV as well. Looks nice. But works badly for real work.
10:46:26  <Alberth> thanks
10:46:48  <Alberth> the two-column idea looks wrong indeed
10:47:07  <planetmaker> np :-) Please tell, if I can be of help with this in whatever way
10:47:44  <planetmaker> two-column is not necessarily bad. But it will be bad for small screens. Rather two rows there
10:47:47  <Alberth> no doubt I'll have lots of detail questions at some point :)
10:48:09  <planetmaker> I'll have no problem on this desktop with two-columns, though ;-)
10:48:29  <planetmaker> How many columns you choose, you will need multi-line text display for strings in any case
10:48:36  <Alberth> I already have major trouble editing the firs translation with a wrapping editor
10:49:03  <Alberth> indeed.
10:49:04  <planetmaker> s/display/editor/ indeed
10:49:05  <Brot6> planetmaker meant: "How many columns you choose, you will need multi-line text editor for strings in any case"
10:50:16  <Alberth> my idea of a single string for each string name is also broken probably, I need to take genders into account as well
10:50:31  <planetmaker> yes, indeed
10:50:58  <planetmaker> I rather chose Greek by accident ... but it seems to have genders and cases :D
10:53:08  <Alberth> I wonder what happens if your master language has genders and cases :)
10:53:22  <Alberth> makes life pretty complicated probably :D
10:53:37  <planetmaker> o_O Not sure it actually should have :-)
10:53:50  <planetmaker> and tbh, not sure you should worry about that
10:53:53  <planetmaker> for now
10:54:22  <Alberth> I don't, but my mind automagically jumps to such corner cases :)
10:54:41  <planetmaker> Which speaks a lot about your mind :-P
10:55:13  <planetmaker> (good things though :-) )
10:55:39  <Alberth> but I can imagine it happens in projects, eg simutrans is german of origin, so their strings are probably more complicated than the english variants
10:57:00  <Alberth> A jumping mind is very handy in software engineering. A problem however is that for other people I seem to make weird context jumps when discussing an issue :)
10:57:16  <planetmaker> yes, of course it happens :-) hehe
11:00:43  <Alberth> My supervisor of the university final project really had a hard time, he really couldn't follow me from time to time. There I learned that I skipped a lot of intermediate steps without even being aware of it :)
11:01:22  <planetmaker> hm :-)
12:09:31  <Alberth> fixed the bug
12:09:31  <Brot6> Webtranslator - Revision 4:02e400dee0e3: Fix: Insert a TextString as new master text instead of the ... XAlberthX @
12:09:58  <Alberth> stupid dynamic typing :)
12:14:01  <planetmaker> :-)
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12:47:12  <Alberth> planetmaker: what translationfile should I aim for? openttd or newgrf?
12:47:50  <planetmaker> hm :-) Aren't the NML files very much like OpenTTD language files?
12:48:58  <planetmaker> but which... tbh, it might be quite nice to have an implementation for our main website which would allow to be developed easier than current one
12:49:13  <planetmaker> We might gain more by that than a NewGRF translation service
12:49:37  <planetmaker> But in the end, both is nice. The NewGRF translation adds new. While the OpenTTD translation ... would mostly be a refactoring
12:49:47  <Alberth> it is not either or imho, I intend to abstract syntax details into a separate module
12:49:50  <planetmaker> I'm torn :-)
12:50:17  <Alberth> so at least in theory you can have several different language systems
12:50:47  <Alberth> are there things in the newgrf language system which are not in openttd, or vice versa?
12:50:59  <planetmaker> yes, I understand that. So the question really is "what should I toy around to get a working transation service"?
12:51:33  <planetmaker> OpenTTD has some special syntax for the primary language (english.txt)
12:52:43  <Alberth> I don't know about any major differences between both
12:52:52  <planetmaker> <-- see the plain string replacements
12:53:02  <planetmaker> that works differently. Slightly
12:54:08  <Alberth> lots of it easily captured in some table-ish thingie, it seems at first sight
12:54:12  <planetmaker> other than that, I'm not exactly aware of differences. At least when looking at how NML treats it
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12:54:37  <planetmaker> NML of course is only a sub-set of NewGRF
12:54:43  <planetmaker> quak :-)
12:54:51  <Alberth> quek
12:55:31  <Alberth> hmm, are there NewGRF string descriptions?
12:55:57  <Alberth> most of it might not have syntax other than numbers, I am afraid :p
12:56:11  <planetmaker> for NML there's
12:56:36  <Alberth> as obviously, you want to enter a string in hex, one character a time :p
12:56:37  <frosch123> hai :)
12:57:05  <planetmaker> Alberth, for NewGRFs you obviously want to focus on NML language files (first)
12:57:14  <planetmaker> NFO would require quite different treatment, I think
12:57:19  <frosch123> yup, and obviously on gs next :p
12:57:42  <frosch123> i don't see any nfo user except chips
12:57:53  <planetmaker> and that's only NFO due to missing station support :D
12:57:54  <Alberth> thanks, I was looking for that page :)
12:58:36  <planetmaker> Alberth, and generally: NML's intention is to make its treatment of language files as closely matching OpenTTD's as possible
12:58:49  <Alberth> frosch123: what is new in gs, compared to newgrf?
12:58:59  <planetmaker> So... if it there's a difference... it can maybe be removed by some small NML changes :-)
12:59:06  <frosch123> they do not support genders and cases
12:59:07  <Alberth> other than a few more {foo} thingies, probably?
12:59:09  <frosch123> (yet)
12:59:36  <Alberth> leaving out functionality is easy :D
12:59:51  <frosch123> oh, and i believe gs has RAW_STRING
12:59:54  <frosch123> in addition to STRING
12:59:58  <frosch123> not sure about STRINGn
13:00:11  <Alberth> ok, NML looks useful as first target thus
13:00:41  <planetmaker> :-)
15:16:18  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #4820 (New): Fishing Harbour graphics extend beyond tile XandythenorthX @
16:25:15  <Ammler> the main lack of openttd translation is support of a "parent" language
16:26:43  <planetmaker> Ammler, the problem therein is that it would potentially allow parent chains...
16:26:59  <planetmaker> not a show-stopper but definitely a thing complicating it
16:27:22  <frosch123> esp. the windows installer
16:27:30  <planetmaker> Ammler, and then, starting a new translation based on another is not that bad. It just needs maintenance
16:27:31  <frosch123> unless the option to install individual languages was removed
16:27:45  <planetmaker> that's an option I could do without quite fine
16:27:55  <planetmaker> it saves the equivalent of 2 mp3 files
16:28:04  <frosch123> but ofc. the new webtranslator could allow display of other languages in parallel to the original string
16:28:07  <Ammler> planetmaker: it could be done without support of openttd
16:28:10  <planetmaker> which is unmeasurable on a 1TB disk :D
16:28:17  <Ammler> just with a good translator
16:28:41  <planetmaker> frosch123, Alberth that's a good idea, yes :-)
16:28:42  <Alberth> frosch123: "could allow display of other languages in parallel to the original string" ?
16:28:48  <planetmaker> yes
16:29:00  <Alberth> I don't understand it
16:29:01  <Ammler> Alberth: no need for "original" string, just parent string
16:29:09  <planetmaker> like "show me English original and German translations when I do a swiss one"
16:29:22  <planetmaker> Ammler, and when the parent doesn't exist?
16:29:23  <Ammler> I don't need english to make swiss
16:29:24  <frosch123> Alberth: configurable per language; so if you translate pt_BR you could see the existing trasnlation of pt_PT, if there is one
16:29:35  <planetmaker> ^
16:29:38  <Ammler> planetmaker: then I get parent of my parent
16:29:39  <Alberth> ah, ok
16:29:51  <planetmaker> Ammler, exactly :-)
16:30:03  <Ammler> which is not necessary "original"
16:30:29  <frosch123> Ammler: you always want to see the english original
16:30:35  <frosch123> else you have a case of "stille post"
16:30:51  <Ammler> frosch123: yes, I should be able to set the parent
16:31:41  <Ammler> english is not always the original
16:32:29  <planetmaker> de-facto OpenTTD treats languages as having english_GB as their parent
16:32:46  <Ammler> yes, so you could make the webtranslator too
16:32:51  <planetmaker> it could make sense to define a language as parent which itself has english_GB as parent
16:33:05  <Brot6> Webtranslator - Feature Request #4823 (New): While translating a string also allow to show other tra... XAlberthX @
16:33:21  <Alberth> stored :)
16:33:31  <planetmaker> :-)
16:33:53  <planetmaker> I think Ammler wants to leach my German translation and Swiss-i-fy it :D
16:34:15  <Ammler> support of parent does already support english as original, so no change needed there
16:34:18  <Alberth> of course it breaks my data structures quite badly atm :)
16:34:53  <Ammler> but webtranslator could also generate the language file with a parent by fill up the missing strings with parent instead original
16:35:11  <Alberth> so when is swiss out of date then?
16:35:22  <planetmaker> :-) Never
16:35:38  <Ammler> well, same time when parent is
16:36:08  <frosch123> writing a different translation into the lang file by the webtranslator is not a good idea
16:36:09  <planetmaker> how do you know? Then in the extrem case you have identical translations
16:36:22  <frosch123> that creates meta data in translator whether a string is translated
16:36:28  <frosch123> which you cannot tell from the source
16:36:33  <planetmaker> I agree, it should need a copy from lang XX by the translator explicitly
16:36:47  <frosch123> and it will break horribly if the translation is changed via the source, e.g. via a sed commit
16:36:52  <planetmaker> It's another thing to also use lang XX as drop-in within the NewGRF / OpenTTD itself as well
16:37:16  <Ammler> frosch123: for openttd, those are 2 lnaguages, it does not know parent etc
16:37:29  <frosch123> Ammler: exactly that is the problem
16:41:13  * Alberth wonders why we don't have {0:P ... }  :p
16:41:32  <Ammler> it is basically the same issue, when original changes a string but translation doesn't need change
16:42:09  <Alberth> yes, also not expressable in current file format
16:43:13  <Ammler> well, it is you can have dummy change with whitespace change
16:43:17  <frosch123> sure it is; you just need to run "annotate" instead of "cat"
16:44:53  <Alberth> frosch123: but then you actually have to change the line in the translation. The text is however correct, so you have to do a hack like Ammler suggests
16:45:23  <frosch123> ah, true, you cannot commit no-change
16:45:25  <Alberth> ie I cannot express "I verified the text, and the translation is still ok"
16:47:51  <Ammler> so bascially the webtranslator just needs a button "use string from parent" and "no change needed"
16:50:14  <Alberth> you may want to make a FR for that :)
16:54:02  <Brot6> Webtranslator - Feature Request #4823: While translating a string also allow to show other translati... XAmmlerX @
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17:24:11  <Brot6> zBuild - Bug #4826 (New): DevZone compile failed XcompilerX @
17:24:58  <planetmaker> meh. Disk quota exceeded, Ammler
17:25:11  <Ammler> afain :-o
17:25:18  <Ammler> something is spamming the server then
17:25:25  <Ammler> again*
17:25:33  <Brot6> zBuild - Bug #4826 (Rejected): DevZone compile failed XcompilerX @
17:25:34  <Brot6> zBuild - Bug #4826 (Rejected): DevZone compile failed XplanetmakerX @
17:25:48  <Ammler> planetmaker: did you rise the quota?
17:25:51  <planetmaker> nope
17:28:01  <Ammler> hmm, the ticket was valid
17:28:54  <Brot6> zBuild - Bug #4826 (Closed): DevZone compile failed XcompilerX @
17:28:54  <Brot6> zBuild - Bug #4826 (Closed): DevZone compile failed XAmmlerX @
17:30:08  <planetmaker> Ammler, no, it was not valid. It's an issue for the CF. Not the set
17:31:14  <planetmaker> it would have been valid in a different context. But not the one it was raised
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17:47:33  <Brot6> Industrial Stations Renewal - Revision 23:ccd82c222eb6: Feature: [FIRS] Add FIRS cargos to container... Xmart3pX @
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18:02:43  <Ammler> planetmaker: then you should have moved it to "the right" context ;-)
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18:15:01  <planetmaker> Ammler, normal project managers can't do that ;-)
18:48:44  <Brot6> zbuild: update from r74 to r74 done -
18:49:31  <Brot6> isr: update from r22 to r23 done -
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21:20:17  <Brot6> Industrial Stations Renewal - Revision 24:3f5ae31cfe9d: Feature: [FIRS]: Add FIRS cargos to remainin... Xmart3pX @
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22:26:42  <Brot6> Industrial Stations Renewal - Revision 25:0b784fdcbc2f: Feature: [FIRS] Add alcohol and milk to barr... Xmart3pX @
22:56:00  <Brot6> Industrial Stations Renewal - Revision 26:073fc5556fcc: Update: Change copyright dates to 2013 Xmart3pX @
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