Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 8th March 2013:
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07:26:01  *** andythenorth has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
08:34:08  <andythenorth> redmine down :
08:34:12  <andythenorth> ;)
09:02:16  *** andythenorth has quit IRC
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10:57:17  <Ammler> not down, but full
10:57:24  <Ammler> I really miss the monitoring :-(
11:01:08  <Ammler> andythenorth: sorry for the delay, please highlight next time
11:01:43  <Ammler> something is spamming our server, I need to check what that could be
11:01:53  <Ammler> we have around a incrase of 10G per month
11:05:39  <andythenorth> Ammler: thanks :)
11:05:46  <andythenorth> I don't know who best to highlight atm
11:05:53  <andythenorth> you?  spike?
11:10:43  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #4877 (Closed): Fishing Harbour construction stage is silly XandythenorthX @
11:34:18  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #5237 (Closed): Industry Construction Costs are way too high XandythenorthX @
11:34:18  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #5237 (Closed): Industry Construction Costs are way too high XandythenorthX @
11:46:51  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 3438:cb8aa45e9e14: Change: Port uses override of default co... XandythenorthX @
11:46:51  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 3439:73dd0c50a3b1: Feature: construction state sprites for ... XandythenorthX @
11:46:51  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 3440:b1ba90306ac5: Change: adjust base construction costs, ... XandythenorthX @
11:46:53  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 3441:6b05d1f50823: Change: adjust fund costs of town indust... XandythenorthX @
12:03:52  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #5189 (Closed): Update Smithy Forge graphics XandythenorthX @
12:48:12  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 3442:955d30edd822: Change: updated graphics for Smithy Forg... XandythenorthX @
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16:44:43  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Bug #5012: Problem with PIL in OS X XplanetmakerX @
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17:02:50  <Brot6> FISH - Bug #5015 (Closed): DevZone compile failed XandythenorthX @
17:03:08  <planetmaker> Alberth, - what about that issue?
17:03:28  <andythenorth> Alberth: I don't like it :(
17:03:32  <andythenorth> flat is better than nested
17:03:45  <planetmaker> oh, and hello Alberth :-)
17:03:49  <andythenorth> wrt not having the filename include the project
17:03:59  <andythenorth> I see the issue though
17:05:16  <Alberth> planetmaker: what part is not clear for you?
17:05:27  <Alberth> hi planetmaker and andythenorth :)
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17:05:58  <planetmaker> I mostly wonder whether it's still current :-)
17:06:10  <planetmaker> or became obsolete by eilts(?)
17:06:20  <Alberth> s/l/n/ :)
17:06:20  <Brot6> Alberth meant: "hi pnanetmaker and andythenorth :)"
17:06:31  <Alberth> no Brot6, I did not
17:07:01  <planetmaker> :D that said, I'm not sure I'll like to force the filenames on the projects... after all the langID is in their header. And one knows the source
17:07:34  <planetmaker> thus it would be easy relatively to give eints' data a directory structure of the from data/source/lang.txt
17:07:34  <Alberth> langid has the same problem; it's the same for the same language
17:08:16  <planetmaker> of course it doesn't solve it for you, if you manually download them from different projects
17:09:11  <planetmaker> hm, so it's two issues: a) attribution to project b) determination of age (revision)
17:09:43  * Alberth doesn't understand what is being solved
17:09:48  <planetmaker> are you actually sure that it's an NML issue and not something which maybe should be solved at DevZone level, assuming the projects want to use a translation service?
17:10:08  <planetmaker> he :-)
17:10:29  <planetmaker> I try again
17:10:44  <Alberth> 5 months ago, eints did not exist
17:11:09  <planetmaker> - the convention you suggestion is IMHO not an NML issue but an issue probably better solved at DevZone level. For projects which want to participate in like eints
17:11:33  <planetmaker> - the revision imho also is not an NML thing. As using NML cannot require using any revision control
17:11:53  <planetmaker> Thus would need referring also to a service platform like DevZone
17:11:55  <Alberth> how would eints solve this?
17:12:07  <planetmaker> Indirectly :-)
17:12:32  <planetmaker> a) It knows where it gets files from (if I could for instance just supply an URL) and then it knows the time it retreived it
17:12:38  <Alberth> do you know how eints treats language files?
17:12:57  <planetmaker> b) it knows upload time anyway, even if manually uploaded, thus knows implicitly the time ordering
17:13:20  <planetmaker> I understand that it saves X versions of a language file. But... please tell me :-)
17:13:40  <Alberth> it doesn't
17:14:43  <Alberth> It eats language files for breakfast, and includes all of it in its own xml file, one xml file for every project
17:15:06  <Alberth> you can also ask for a language file, and it spits out a copy
17:15:09  <planetmaker> hm, yummi :-) Ok :-)
17:15:28  <Alberth> ie there are no language file at the disk
17:16:01  <planetmaker> ok, good. But it knows it and the related times. And could know source and does know project.
17:16:25  <planetmaker> Main background of my question basically was: is the linked issue (still) an NML issue, or can it be moved or even closed?
17:16:53  <Alberth> ah, that solves a few puzzles :)
17:17:26  <planetmaker> I'm just going through NML issues; sorry, I should have been clearer :-)
17:17:48  <Alberth> technically it's still an NML issue, as NML enforces these names
17:17:57  <planetmaker> NML enforces names? No
17:18:06  <planetmaker> you can call them how you like
17:18:18  <planetmaker> or am I totally off the track there?
17:18:43  <planetmaker> it's all defined by the langID inside the file(s)
17:19:36  <planetmaker> it doesn't even enforce the 'lang' folder. It can be changed by means of command line switch
17:20:47  <Alberth> ah, ok. So line 970 is telling a lie :)
17:21:17  <planetmaker> not ;-)
17:22:57  <planetmaker> so, english.lng is enforced indeed. The other names not
17:23:37  <planetmaker> but, Alberth, check nmlc --help :-)
17:23:46  <planetmaker> and look at --default-lang=<file> :-)
17:23:51  <planetmaker> so even that allows being changed
17:24:07  <Alberth> yep, I was reading line 44 of too :)
17:24:40  <Alberth> which does make   970:                generic.print_warning("String commands don't match with english.lng", pos)   wrong :)
17:24:52  <planetmaker> so it's just the assumption that the default string file. Yes, that's actually true :-)
17:26:16  <Alberth> right, so the issue is more about a common convention
17:29:55  <Alberth> I still think it's a NML issue, in the sense that NML could have a different convention. It is however also unlikely that NML will change that policy.
17:30:44  <Alberth> eints just provides an alternative to translating for those projects that want to use it
17:33:00  <andythenorth> Alberth: have eints ship the download in a dir? :P
17:33:08  <andythenorth> with gpl? :P
17:33:26  <Alberth> we can push it in a tar
17:33:42  <planetmaker> Alberth, so what policy should NML really apply? How would it know its default lang file name then?
17:34:11  <andythenorth> I thnk NML does it fine o_O
17:34:17  <Alberth> glob.glob("*_english.lng")  ?
17:34:21  <planetmaker> assume a person who just got NML, wrote his/her first few lines and adds a lang file...
17:34:33  <planetmaker> s/he will wonder how to properly name it
17:34:57  <planetmaker> what do I do with two _english.lng where one is US, the other AU the 3rd UK?
17:35:00  <Alberth> planetmaker: it's not something that can be solved by nml itself, the tutorial would have to guide a new user
17:35:44  <Alberth> glob.glob("*_en_*.lng")   :D
17:35:57  <Alberth> but imho don't bother
17:36:12  <Alberth> just close the issue as wontfix
17:37:11  <planetmaker> I see your point, and without any disrespect, indeed I'm tempted to do so
17:37:11  <Alberth> like I said last week, I tried to get nml to move towards more sanity in language file handling, and failed miserably :)
17:42:20  <planetmaker> hm :-)
17:42:27  <planetmaker> or rather hm :-(
17:43:20  <Alberth> why?
17:43:38  <planetmaker> more sanity usually is nice, no?
17:44:16  <Alberth> it is, the only point is perhaps how far can you get
17:44:33  <planetmaker> yes
17:44:33  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 1011:941b49d33f3d: Fix: Endeavour Utility Catamaran missing spriterow (closes #4721) XandythenorthX @
17:44:33  <Brot6> FISH - Bug #4721 (Closed): kwangtong tug missing some spriterows XandythenorthX @
17:44:49  <Alberth> Y3xo was under the impression that it was useless compared to a WT-ish solution
17:45:08  <planetmaker> I tend to agree there
17:45:46  <planetmaker> not useless. But... at least partly adding problems in other places. Like making the author use specific names
17:46:02  <planetmaker> while currently "only" the transators need to take care to know which file they edit
17:47:18  <Alberth> but you have a lot of those :)
17:47:25  <andythenorth> hmm :)
17:47:33  <andythenorth> what's the end goal with eints?
17:47:40  * andythenorth is thinking
17:47:43  <Alberth> take over the world
17:47:49  <planetmaker> yes-ish. But making it easy for authors is also an important goal
17:48:02  <andythenorth> with eints, how often will a translator ever have to see a lang file?
17:48:04  <planetmaker> Especially those which are easily deterred by overly complex setup
17:48:16  <Alberth> andythenorth: never
17:48:26  <andythenorth> ok so no problem for translators
17:48:32  <andythenorth> and how often will authors have to see a lang file?
17:48:50  <andythenorth> I am considering how we might curl or otherwise fetch the lang files with a client app
17:49:19  <andythenorth> I certainly would automate fetching lang for myself, I'm not going to browser-download them
17:49:41  <Alberth> that was the idea of eints
17:49:49  <andythenorth> I figured it might be :)
17:49:57  <Alberth> even to the point of not having any web pages :)
17:50:24  <andythenorth> brb
17:53:18  <planetmaker> Brot is silent?
17:53:25  <andythenorth> slow
17:53:50  <planetmaker> hm... also devzone doesn't know it. strange
17:53:52  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Feature Request #4311 (Closed): Use more unique language file names XplanetmakerX @
17:54:11  <planetmaker> slow
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18:44:16  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 2065:65e887114349: Fix (r1048): Give the expected default lang file ... XplanetmakerX @
18:48:10  <Alberth> planetmaker: it works better with %
18:49:14  <planetmaker> hm, really?
18:50:07  <planetmaker>
18:50:28  <planetmaker> and without it worked for me. Granted... it's a bit stabbing in the dark :D
18:51:18  <Alberth> remove the first ,  (in front of %)
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18:51:45  <Alberth> ie   str % param    or   str % (param1, param2, ...)
18:52:39  <planetmaker> oh, gah, bah :-)
18:52:41  <planetmaker> thanks
18:53:15  <Alberth>
18:53:16  <Webster> Title: Python code - 6 lines - codepad (at
18:53:53  <Alberth> hi frosch
18:54:19  <frosch123> moin :)
18:55:31  <planetmaker> quak :-)
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19:44:33  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 2066:b8b4568b4666: Fix (r2065): Syntax error... or language mixup XplanetmakerX @
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20:30:29  <andythenorth> herp
20:30:36  <andythenorth> FIRS 1.0 for April 1st?
20:30:42  <Supercheese> Hehehe
20:32:23  <frosch123> firs 2.0 on april 2nd?
20:33:02  <Supercheese> Switch to a logarithmic scale for release numbering
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21:19:28  <Brot6> FISH - Feature #5252 (New): All ships need purchase costs set XandythenorthX @
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21:44:23  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 1012:7603a2062ce1: Change: switcheroo of stats and such for Altamira freighter XandythenorthX @
21:44:23  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 1013:63811cb6f4ec: Fix: Cape Spear Trawler had mail and freight capacities reversed XandythenorthX @
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22:44:25  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 1014:f3b9be85faff: Change: set speed and capacity properties for pax ships XandythenorthX @
22:44:25  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 1015:92f3303e800e: Change: adjust river speed fraction down XandythenorthX @
22:44:25  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 1016:6b70785f24cc: Change: set / adjust capacity and speed props for multiple GCVs, ... XandythenorthX @
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23:01:23  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Bug #5012 (Confirmed): Problem with PIL in OS X XplanetmakerX @

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