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Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 15th April 2013:
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07:50:31  *** Supercheese has quit IRC
10:01:15  <V453000> what time is it
10:01:16  <V453000> what is it
10:01:54  <Brot6> NUTS Unrealistic Train Set - Revision 43:aca7a9a1d81e: Fixes for 0.5.1 - AE capacity/speed/power, in... XV453000X @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nuts/repository/revisions/aca7a9a1d81e
10:01:55  <V453000> puuuuuuuuuuuuuush o clock
10:49:39  <planetmaker> ui, that's a quick succession release :-)
11:12:23  <V453000> bugs in the new train :D
12:01:35  <planetmaker> :-) good reason to release anew :D
12:01:43  <planetmaker> (and doesn't hurt either)
12:04:32  <V453000> exactly :)
12:04:56  <V453000> 0.3.8 was downloaded only 16 times :P
12:05:29  <V453000> 0.2.6 only 14 times :D
12:05:42  <V453000> the quick bugfix releases
12:06:20  <V453000> e.g. :D 0.2.7 	Making recolouring of maglev express (Meat Grinder only for now) wagons actually work.
12:06:37  <V453000> aka introducing new features in 0.2.6 which actually arent quite working
12:06:52  <planetmaker> :-)
12:08:39  <V453000> I am sometimes getting messages like "we had 0.X.Y on our server and after we finish the game there is 0.X.Y+4 ... WTF?
12:08:43  <V453000> but I guess that is alright :D
12:13:03  <planetmaker> well. yes. why not?
12:13:30  <planetmaker> it's a bit matter of philosophy
12:13:40  <planetmaker> but the "ship early, ship often" works quite well
12:13:41  <V453000> indeed, does not hurt anyone at all :)
12:14:07  <planetmaker> it doesn't create the big buzz about new releases like some people create, though
12:14:28  <planetmaker> but that's then rather to tease their ego than help anything else
12:14:46  <planetmaker> (if one is honest - it doesn't help quality of released products)
12:14:48  <V453000> myeah, I cant say I need to create any buzz ... the 1st birthday was a buzz a bit :)
12:15:01  <planetmaker> yes. but rightfully :-)
12:15:09  <V453000> :) indeed
12:15:28  <planetmaker> but you didn't hype it like months in advance, making promises you can't hold
12:15:36  <planetmaker> you simply shipped what was there - that was my impression :D
12:15:50  <planetmaker> which always is more and better than the previous release(s) :D
12:15:52  <V453000> the only slight problem I am facing is that NUTS evolves so quickly that many people who dont play all the time arent able to follow with the changes in train stats and their usage respectively
12:16:05  <V453000> yeah pretty much :)
12:16:07  <planetmaker> well. yes.
12:16:14  <planetmaker> But then... does it matter?
12:16:18  <V453000> not to me :)
12:16:24  <planetmaker> It's like using a new NewGRF then each time.
12:16:30  <planetmaker> Granted, it's for me like that. But so what?
12:16:30  <V453000> pretty much
12:16:56  <V453000> well yeah ... point is, to even notice the changes/specific train usage you have to play a lot
12:17:00  <V453000> like really a lot
12:17:15  <V453000> so it doesnt really apply to vast majority of people :)
12:17:41  <planetmaker> yes, likely
12:17:51  <planetmaker> otherwise one has to simply look at what's there and then decide
12:18:05  <planetmaker> And one can conclude that your documentation is quite elaborate. A very good example
12:18:16  <planetmaker> It's only comparable to FIRS. And maybe ECS
12:18:20  <V453000> :> (getting outdated btw :P)
12:18:32  <planetmaker> that's a constant issue with all docs :D
12:18:39  <planetmaker> keep it updated :D
12:18:53  <planetmaker> it adds to a very good overall impression :-)
12:18:54  <V453000> yeah, but an industry set like FIRS has this page more like for describing what is there, not how to play it ... NUTS needs specific info how to exactly use each train
12:19:06  <planetmaker> oh, FIRS also needs that :D
12:19:10  <planetmaker> with the economies or so
12:19:12  <V453000> yeah :) I am planning to make an update after drawing some more shipz
12:19:18  <V453000> true
12:21:15  <planetmaker> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/nightlies/LATEST/docs/html/get_started.html defintiely is more than a description :D
12:21:31  <V453000> oh yeah true :)
12:22:09  <V453000> well, it is a different set, hard to compare :) but I would compare it to http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nuts/wiki/Usage
12:22:24  <V453000> while andy has it all so nice looking that it looks like a great page to "sell" FIRS :P
12:22:34  <planetmaker> http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/ECS_Vectors is more of a description but also well-made
12:22:36  <V453000> have you seen his latest coal mine?
12:22:37  <V453000> looks great
12:22:48  <planetmaker> yep, saw it. Awesome
12:22:52  <V453000> yes :)
12:23:07  <planetmaker> and yes, it's comparable to the wiki page you linked
12:25:19  <V453000> NUTS 0.5.0 addition: :D http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nuts/repository/changes/gfx/SLUGwtf2.png https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/SLUG2.png :D custom headz
12:25:44  <V453000> animal drivers
12:26:02  <V453000> also allows for CL1 which causes absolute mayhem
12:26:44  <planetmaker> :D
12:29:03  <V453000> I have been able to create my personal playing style with NUTS :) and allow newer players to focus more on system than on annoying things like CL rules
12:29:20  <V453000> because they focus on what to connect where instead of how
12:30:20  <planetmaker> More broader said: NUTS is a very refreshing thing - it breaks so many of the unwritten "guides" on how to make a trainset
12:30:26  <V453000> even more luckily, new people seem to automatically go for maglev - which has 100% bonus for CLs already :)
12:30:34  <planetmaker> it's not realistic. Not intended to. It's just... for fun. And playability
12:30:42  <V453000> well yeah :)
12:30:43  <planetmaker> and that makes it severely different
12:30:48  <planetmaker> unique
12:31:01  <V453000> indeed
12:31:08  <planetmaker> and besides that it's well-done and maintained. Also a bonus :D
12:31:29  <V453000> he :)
12:31:36  <planetmaker> yes, I can say, you impress me with what you create(d) there :-)
12:31:56  <V453000> thank you :)
12:33:07  <V453000> I am very proud of it myself :>
12:34:22  <planetmaker> :-)
12:34:24  <V453000> I am actually getting at least some graphical consistency after the year, which is nice too
12:34:45  <V453000> [most things look like they fit together]
12:36:04  <V453000> if you look at other train sets, each of them usually has specific style ... voyager/jake draw in some way, mb draws in some way, Pikka draws in another way ... but within the set, most of their trains are similarly looking in style/colours/lighting
12:36:17  <V453000> it is pretty damn hard to make that  :D
12:36:19  <planetmaker> from what I gather with my occasional games I play and what I see in forums or here: yes, agreed
12:37:19  <V453000> as you might have noticed, I also tried to write about drawing, but it isnt exactly constructive when I need to rewrite it a few months afterwards :D
12:38:17  <V453000> and that is probably one of the main reasons why I like drawing trains so much, it gives me the same undiscovered feeling as when I was creating new concepts in openttd which werent documented/done before
12:39:09  <V453000> and perhaps one day there will be a documentation on how do I draw things, just like there is documentation on how do I build things in openttd on our coop wiki and blogs :)
12:39:22  <planetmaker> :-)
12:39:30  <V453000> the process of both the things feels very similar to me
12:40:01  <planetmaker> hehe. You learned one thing: how to learn.
12:40:08  <planetmaker> Once you know that - then many things are easy
12:42:22  <V453000> well yeah, important to note learn from own previous progress instead of from documentation [and/or adding to previous documentation] (which eventually doesnt exist at that point)
12:42:30  <V453000> and that is great fun :)
12:42:52  <V453000> especially when you get to write it all down in a long article which includes everything you can give to the others which learn from it later
12:43:06  <planetmaker> yes-ish. both, I'd say. But important is to just dare try
12:43:10  <V453000> which/who enrish whatever :>
12:43:25  <V453000> well yeah, it isnt rocket science :) trying is all it takes tbh
12:43:31  <planetmaker> try to do it. If it doesn't work, read (again) and try slightly different
12:43:43  <planetmaker> hehe. Rocket science... it's the same thing :-P
12:43:52  <planetmaker> try. *boom*. Try again ;-)
12:44:00  <V453000> yes, many players have the syndrome of "I need to expand but I do not know how" and that is what they conclude it all with
12:44:05  <V453000> :D
12:44:08  <V453000> right
12:44:32  <V453000> same for "I want this newGRF but I do not know how to code or draw" thing you see on the forums every day
12:44:56  <V453000> well I guess that applies to about every thing in general not just in openttd related things :D
12:45:39  <planetmaker> yes. I don't know how to draw either. Well. Or I know it somehow
12:45:56  <planetmaker> I do know though, if I put more time in it, I could create nice graphics, too
12:46:06  <planetmaker> I tried with trees as now some in OpenGFX. And the shores
12:46:12  <planetmaker> I'm also still proud of them :D
12:46:39  <planetmaker> if you do it more often, you develop a feel for how to approach a thing
12:46:45  <planetmaker> of how it needs to look to look nice
12:46:56  <planetmaker> and then it'll get (much) easier to create further of similar things
12:47:00  <V453000> indeed :)
12:47:27  <V453000> im not sure if it is just personal, but I in general have problems with starting things
12:47:36  <V453000> but once I start something, it goes far
12:47:43  <planetmaker> well. that's one of the biggest hurdles.
12:48:10  <planetmaker> it needs much motivation and possibly time to actually comprehend the task, sort it into feasible sub-task and get an idea how to actually approach them individually
12:48:11  <V453000> indeed, and for example in newGRF development I am actually considering very currently (in the last few days) to write a beginner article
12:48:18  <V453000> where to find what, what you need, and mainly how to s tart
12:48:20  <planetmaker> please do
12:48:33  <planetmaker> :-)
12:48:33  <V453000> because when I was starting I can clearly remember the confusion
12:48:43  <planetmaker> you probably want to put that in tt-wiki.net
12:48:50  <V453000> and you know yourself very well to what level of confused can I get :D
12:48:56  <planetmaker> unless you put it into the openttd wiki. Not sure :-)
12:49:16  <planetmaker> yes. But know that confusion... it happens. Not only to you. To everyone
12:49:24  <planetmaker> possibly different things. but that's how it is :-)
12:49:29  <V453000> yeah I will write it first though :P might happen in like a week or two, that is the usual "incubation time" of when I think about articles and eventually write them
12:49:36  <planetmaker> and poiting out some of the bear traps... that's good
12:49:42  <V453000> indeed
12:49:43  <planetmaker> :D
12:50:22  <V453000> it is important :) then the article has some actual clear structure instead of ending up as a mess of various ideas
12:50:45  <V453000> I was thinking about some of the coop blog articles for around 2 months actually
12:50:58  <V453000> the most complicated ones that is, like general hubs or stations
12:52:30  <planetmaker> "gut Ding will Weile haben" as we say in German: good things need time
12:52:51  <V453000> :) pretty much
12:53:11  <V453000> e.g. "hasty" NUTS releases which get a bugfix release few hours afterwards :D
13:00:14  <planetmaker> well. yes and no. that's different I think :D
13:01:27  <V453000> a bit :)
13:47:56  <Brot6> Industrial Stations Renewal - Revision 119:8b713726f3ff: Feature: Add snow to mineral unloader and m... Xmart3pX @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/isr/repository/revisions/8b713726f3ff
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17:20:15  <Brot6> firs: update from r3645 to r3646 done (30 warnings) - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/nightlies/r3646
17:21:06  <Brot6> isr: update from r118 to r119 done - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/isr/nightlies/r119
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20:59:21  <Brot6> Industrial Stations Renewal - Revision 120:5591beabe8b0: Feature: Add snow to valuables station and ... Xmart3pX @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/isr/repository/revisions/5591beabe8b0
21:45:53  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 3647:93d40a713d66: Codechange: wip on coal mine XandythenorthX @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/93d40a713d66
21:48:04  <Brot6> firs: update from r3646 to r3647 done (30 warnings) - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/r3647
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