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Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 3rd November 2013:
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00:21:34  <DevZone> Project Japanese Landscape build #5-push: SUCCESS in 15 sec: https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/job/jpland/5/
05:02:29  <DevZone> Yippee, build fixed!
05:02:30  <DevZone> Project Japanese Stations build #2-push: FIXED in 1 min 50 sec: https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/job/jpstations/2/
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07:44:04  <andythenorth> moin
07:46:34  <andythenorth> hmm
07:46:47  <andythenorth> why don't we just make some multi-variate weighting and rating system for grfs on bananas
07:46:57  <andythenorth> and then watch for people trying to game it in interesting ways
07:47:23  <andythenorth> that would solve the grf-lists-go-out-of-date thing, and provide a small pyschological experiment
08:10:49  <DevZone> Project Iron Horse build #401-push: SUCCESS in 51 sec: https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/job/iron-horse/401/
08:15:21  <DevZone> Project Iron Horse build #402-push: SUCCESS in 1 min 22 sec: https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/job/iron-horse/402/
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10:17:04  <DevZone> Project Iron Horse build #403-push: SUCCESS in 1 min 34 sec: https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/job/iron-horse/403/
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11:51:41  <DevZone> Project Iron Horse build #404-push: SUCCESS in 1 min 48 sec: https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/job/iron-horse/404/
11:54:21  <DevZone> Project Iron Horse build #405-push: SUCCESS in 43 sec: https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/job/iron-horse/405/
11:58:01  <DevZone> Project Iron Horse build #406-push: SUCCESS in 47 sec: https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/job/iron-horse/406/
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14:22:08  <DevZone> Project Finnish Rail Infrastructure - Rails build #134-push: SUCCESS in 8 min 39 sec: https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/job/frissrails/134/
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15:51:10  <juzza1> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Switch how do i write the expression as an array if i want to save something to temp storage and use another var to make a decision?
15:53:54  <juzza1> switch (FEAT_SOMETHING, SELF, ID, [STORE_TEMP(0, 0), somevar]) like that?
16:01:37  <frosch123> yes
16:01:47  <frosch123> the last item in the array defined the expression for the switch
16:02:00  <frosch123> the other things in the array are executed in advance
16:05:59  <juzza1> thanks
16:49:24  <DevZone> Project OpenGFX+ BigGUI build #26-push: SUCCESS in 1 min 46 sec: https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/job/ogfx-biggui/26/
16:54:26  <DevZone> Project FIRS Industry Replacement Set build #46-push: SUCCESS in 6 min 50 sec: https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/job/firs/46/
17:24:08  <DevZone> Project NML - NewGRF Meta Language build #126-nightlies: SUCCESS in 6 min 1 sec: https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/job/nml/126/
17:57:08  <DevZone> Project Iron Horse build #407-push: SUCCESS in 1 min 33 sec: https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/job/iron-horse/407/
18:06:48  <DevZone> Project Japanese Faces build #4-nightlies: SUCCESS in 41 sec: https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/job/jpfaces/4/
18:08:48  <DevZone> Project finnishtrams build #14-nightlies: SUCCESS in 2 min 41 sec: https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/job/finnishtrams/14/
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18:17:51  <DevZone> Project Iron Horse build #408-push: SUCCESS in 1 min 9 sec: https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/job/iron-horse/408/
18:21:51  <DevZone> Project Japanese Trains build #6-nightlies: SUCCESS in 44 sec: https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/job/jptrains/6/
18:23:06  <DevZone> Project Japanese Buildings build #8-nightlies: SUCCESS in 59 sec: https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/job/jpbuild/8/
18:31:38  <DevZone> Project Nutracks build #62-nightlies: SUCCESS in 1 min 31 sec: https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/job/nutracks/62/
18:39:18  <DevZone> Project Japanese Landscape build #6-nightlies: SUCCESS in 11 sec: https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/job/jpland/6/
18:45:37  <DevZone> Project Japanese Stations build #3-nightlies: SUCCESS in 30 sec: https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/job/jpstations/3/
18:48:44  <DevZone> Project Iron Horse build #409-nightlies: SUCCESS in 1 min 37 sec: https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/job/iron-horse/409/
18:51:03  <DevZone> Project Japanese Signals build #4-nightlies: SUCCESS in 57 sec: https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/job/jpsignals/4/
19:07:48  <DevZone> Project OpenGFX build #92-nightlies: SUCCESS in 9 min 42 sec: https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/job/opengfx/92/
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20:51:31  <DevZone> Project Iron Horse build #410-push: SUCCESS in 1 min 15 sec: https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/job/iron-horse/410/
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20:52:55  <DevZone> Project Iron Horse build #411-push: SUCCESS in 1 min 0 sec: https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/job/iron-horse/411/
21:01:24  <andythenorth> horsey horsey horsey
21:01:51  * Taede feeds andythenorth a carrot
21:02:00  <andythenorth> spooky
21:02:07  <andythenorth> I am actually eating a carrot right now
21:02:29  <Taede> :)
21:04:46  <andythenorth> so why aren't these trains electric?
21:04:58  <andythenorth> and do I have to think about railtypes, or is that just magic?
21:06:17  * Taede hasn't a clue about newgrf mechanics
21:06:38  <andythenorth> it's ok, the wiki knows
21:06:46  <Taede> :)
21:10:44  <planetmaker> andythenorth, for trains you have to declare their railtype(s)
21:10:56  <andythenorth> and the engine_class has to be accurate, instead of wrong :P
21:11:51  <planetmaker> though with the railtype declaration it's a bit pointless. Likely it still has some use for the effect vehicles it spawns, but nothing else
21:12:24  <planetmaker> thus engine_class definition won't change tracktype at all
21:12:33  <planetmaker> only looks what it sparks / fumes
21:13:12  <andythenorth> newgrf disagrees :D
21:13:21  <andythenorth> (just tested it)
21:13:35  <andythenorth> at least for default (no railtypes grf)
21:15:00  <DevZone> Project Iron Horse build #412-push: SUCCESS in 1 min 1 sec: https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/job/iron-horse/412/
21:15:17  <andythenorth> planetmaker: you made a railtype grf?
21:16:44  <planetmaker> yes
21:16:48  <planetmaker> though quite basic
21:16:56  <planetmaker> it was the first NML grf ever ;-)
21:17:06  <Taede> swedishrails?
21:17:10  <planetmaker> ^
21:19:37  <planetmaker> andythenorth, for a train grf: define yourself some pseudo railtypes in a railtype translation table
21:19:46  <planetmaker> so that you can define the property like
21:19:48  <planetmaker>         track_type:             NORMAL_RAIL;
21:20:08  <planetmaker>         track_type:             MONORAIL;
21:20:11  <planetmaker> or similar
21:20:42  <planetmaker> and the railtype translation table then looks e.g. like http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ogfx-trains/repository/entry/src/railtype_table.pnml
21:20:55  <planetmaker> and links the vehicle's track type to the most fitting available track type
21:21:23  <andythenorth> did you learn anything about sane label definitions?  (compatibility and such)
21:21:26  <planetmaker> thus the definition in the RTT is a preference sorting for each of your pseudo railtypes you define therein
21:22:01  <planetmaker> andythenorth, you write a railtype grf or a vehicle one?
21:22:10  <planetmaker> in both cases foobar's docs in the linked file are sane
21:22:22  <planetmaker> existing labels are documented in the wiki but follow no particular pattern
21:23:24  <planetmaker> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/RailtypeLabels
21:24:56  <andythenorth> planetmaker: this would be a vehicle grf.  I assume that we think railtype grfs should be separate?  I can't just include them in the train grf?
21:24:58  <planetmaker> the dutch trackset afaik is the only one using foobar's comprehensive railtype label scheme
21:25:18  <andythenorth> it is quite comprehensive :o
21:25:20  <planetmaker> I think they should be separate yes. that's what we have the rtt for to allow for that easily
21:25:54  <planetmaker> thus what you could do: simply copy the RTT in the linked file. Or the one from the DutchTrainset. And use it
21:26:10  <planetmaker> I mostly did that with the linked rtt: take from foobar and slightly adopt
21:26:56  <planetmaker> and then thought about which vehicles go on crappy rail (NORMAL_RAIL10) over slightly better to excellent rail NORMAL_RAIL40. And the same for electrical. And there's separate monorail and maglev
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21:27:38  <planetmaker> so you can be somewhat detailed in track choice. But it will simply be electric / non-electric for those who don't use a trackset which differentiates
21:28:11  <andythenorth> interesting
21:28:43  <planetmaker> thus you design the track complexity as much as you like. But the actual complexity is defined by the chosen trackset
21:29:08  <planetmaker> only slight difficulty is to define a proper cascade of fallback railtypes
21:29:16  <planetmaker> but that should not be too difficult
21:30:28  <planetmaker> this design of the fallback cascade requires to know what track label means what. But... the wiki page should tell. Or foobar's docs
21:30:39  <planetmaker> s/Or/And/
21:31:05  <andythenorth> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Standardized_Railtype_Scheme
21:31:12  <andythenorth> ^ so I need to stick to that, or we go insane
21:32:35  <planetmaker> yeah. That scheme should really fit *everyone*'s need. Except wetrail
21:32:52  <planetmaker> and pipelines
21:32:56  <planetmaker> and... and and ;-)
21:33:34  <planetmaker> though could be put into first label letter
21:34:12  <andythenorth> it's really quite detailed, eh?
21:34:24  <planetmaker> yeah. But it's actually sane
21:34:26  <andythenorth> as a player, I have not the first clue how I'd make sense of it :)
21:34:48  <planetmaker> And using it makes sure that each track designed by an author could get a label which then fits its nieche
21:34:56  <planetmaker> nor do I ;-)
21:35:17  <andythenorth> I might just stick to RAIL and ELRL
21:35:18  <planetmaker> As player I actually don't care. I stopped liking too many track types
21:35:19  <andythenorth> or such
21:35:39  <planetmaker> as player I actually do. As author of a vehicle set I'd simply support that insanity for those who like
21:35:58  <planetmaker> but not spend wake-up nights thinking about which vehicle fits where. And simply use my first guess on where it might
21:36:04  <andythenorth> we should do more gameplay features and fewer trainspotting features :)
21:36:11  <planetmaker> :-)
21:36:26  <planetmaker> too many tracktypes are too tedious for me to play, yes
21:36:37  <planetmaker> And they add usually little to my personal game experience
21:37:31  <planetmaker> I also don't want realistic distinction between AC and DC. It just is tedious and doesn't add fun for me
21:37:43  <planetmaker> train is train. And runs on tracks. Done ;-)
21:37:57  <planetmaker> ok, I accept electric yes/no for historic reasons :-)
21:40:33  <andythenorth> the electric trains in this set won't care AC / DC / overhead / third rail etc
21:40:36  <andythenorth> just juice
21:44:58  <Rubidium> yeah, realistically it's not realistic to have a realistic model of reality
21:46:40  <Rubidium> it's not even realistically feasible to come to a realistic model of reality that all reality driven NewGRF developers can agree with
21:47:00  * Rubidium is awaiting a spanking
21:48:11  <Rubidium> but then I might've been seem as someone oversimplifying things
21:51:01  <Rubidium> one could have a fairly realistic economy which is super simple; passengers and 'stuff'. Then farms require lots of passengers and some stuff to create stuff and passengers. If passengers aren't delivered or picked up, the farm won't produce anymore.
21:51:31  <Rubidium> mines are the same (improve performance a bit with more stuff)
21:51:56  <Rubidium> then likewise for factories, but they require stuff to make stuff, and towns in their turn require stuff to grow
21:52:27  <Rubidium> in theory you could reduce the percentages of passengers required over time
21:52:39  <Rubidium> realistic, yet not
21:58:10  <andythenorth> personally, I await voxels
21:58:13  <andythenorth> for more realism
21:58:18  <andythenorth> but also...bed time
21:58:22  <andythenorth> bed is highly realistic
22:06:16  <andythenorth> bye
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23:16:33  <juzza1> yeah btw, something that is missing from the wiki - the engine class must contain more than just livery colour setting (what does that mean?) and sound effect, because vehicle with ENGINE_CLASS_ELECTRIC that has track_type: RAIL still only runs on electrified rails
23:16:41  <juzza1> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Vehicles
23:16:56  <juzza1> I wouldn't know the specifics, so im not adding anything right now
23:21:12  <juzza1> oh yea, livery colour setting probably means the engine-type specific livery selection in-game
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