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00:10:38 *** Osai is now known as Osai^zZz 00:14:14 *** geoffk [~geoffk@host86-130-159-207.range86-130.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:25:48 *** pro [~http@80-240-220-232.dnat.migtel.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:26:54 *** |Gekkko| [~Gekkko@CPE-138-130-132-50.nsw.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 00:29:28 *** |Gekkko| is now known as Gekkko 00:34:51 *** jordi [~jordi@115.Red-213-96-69.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #openttd 00:35:31 <jordi> ahoi 00:35:40 <jordi> blathijs: hey 00:35:57 <jordi> so, I was wonderign why Ubuntu wasn't picking our Debian package. 00:36:12 <jordi> and a few questions later, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/119631 00:39:30 <Sacro> ooh 00:39:33 <Sacro> an Ubuntu package 00:41:28 *** orudge [~orudge@91.84.56.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:42:31 <jordi> yeah 00:42:49 <jordi> it seems I had to push the right buttons, it's not entirely automatic for non-"main" packages 00:44:26 *** orudge [~orudge@91.84.56.243] has joined #openttd 00:44:29 *** mode/#openttd [+o orudge] by ChanServ 00:44:44 <Sacro> lol 00:44:52 <Sacro> Arch has got it in the community repo 01:09:22 *** Sacro [ben@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:17:21 *** XeryusTC [~irc@cc480157-b.sneek1.fr.home.nl] has quit [Quit: Solong, and thanks for all the fish.] 01:24:14 <Smoovious> any games need another player right now? (deciding which to join) 01:25:47 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r10078 /trunk/src/ (industry.h industry_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: Centralize all industry counts data and access 01:30:58 *** Eddi|zuHause3 [~johekr@p54b74f51.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 01:37:08 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@dD5E03DCF.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 01:37:49 *** Eddi|zuHause2 [~johekr@p54B7583B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:49:19 *** jordi [~jordi@115.Red-213-96-69.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has left #openttd [] 01:53:33 *** tokai [~tokai@p54B8437A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:56:48 *** tokai [~tokai@p54b809d9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 01:56:51 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 02:01:57 *** Osai^2 [~Osai@pD9EB4D86.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 02:08:28 *** Osai^zZz [~Osai@pD9EB6F1A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:16:02 *** |2rB [~Twofish@195.204.107.4] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:39:28 <Phazorx> how do i see full changelog 02:39:44 <Phazorx> one of old bugs is back i wanna find out revision which it was fixed in 03:00:19 <mggrant> could try "svn log <filename>" 03:05:54 <Phazorx> heh dont have svn client here but i guess 03:06:03 <Phazorx> however i want changelog like it apreas on site 03:06:18 <Phazorx> CIA-1 woild give it to me but i need it from 89XX to now i ithnk 03:48:39 *** Ammler [~Ammler@adsl-84-227-166-65.adslplus.ch] has joined #openttd 03:57:07 *** glx [~glx@bny93-6-82-245-156-124.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 06:00:58 *** Osai^2 is now known as Osai 06:10:08 *** Nigel [~nigel@202.154.148.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:25:34 *** Nigel [~nigel@202.154.148.243] has joined #openttd 06:32:15 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: miham * r10079 /trunk/src/lang/ (bulgarian.txt catalan.txt estonian.txt): 06:32:15 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-06-10 08:31:40 06:32:15 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: bulgarian - 29 fixed by thetitan (29) 06:32:15 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: catalan - 1 fixed by arnaullv (1) 06:32:15 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: estonian - 159 changed by kristjans (159) 06:32:30 *** Zr40_ [~Zr40@zr40.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 07:04:18 *** Gekkko [~Gekkko@CPE-138-130-132-50.nsw.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:05:39 *** |Gekkko| [~Gekkko@CPE-138-130-132-50.nsw.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 07:13:12 *** G [~nigel@202.154.148.243] has joined #openttd 07:13:16 *** Nigel [~nigel@202.154.148.243] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:22:04 *** G_ [~nigel@202.154.148.243] has joined #openttd 07:22:33 *** G [~nigel@202.154.148.243] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:42:07 <stillunknown> KUDr_wrk: do you work on sundays as well? 07:47:57 *** Zavior [~Zavior@d195-237-7-209.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd 07:49:40 <Phazorx> stillunknown: may be you know 07:49:46 <Phazorx> how can i get cghangelog 07:49:50 <Phazorx> full since 8900 ? 07:50:54 <hylje> svn log 07:51:34 <Phazorx> no sn here 07:51:36 <Phazorx> svn 07:51:54 <Phazorx> canyou cat it to me somehow plz hylje ? 07:52:44 <hylje> maybe 07:53:36 <Phazorx> it's for our bug which came back 07:53:49 <Phazorx> i want to track the release where it got fixed 07:53:58 <hylje> 8900-HEAD? 07:54:20 <Phazorx> more like tail 07:54:30 <hylje> 1-8900? 07:54:34 <Phazorx> i assuem it grows incremeantaly 07:54:39 <Phazorx> 8900-now 07:54:44 <hylje> HEAD is now 07:54:44 <Phazorx> 8900-tail 07:54:48 <Phazorx> ahh 07:54:55 <Phazorx> 8900-head 07:54:59 <Phazorx> sry 07:56:17 <hylje> http://media.hylje.fi/8900-HEAD-changelog.txt 07:57:12 <Noldo> does constructing waypoint cost money? 07:58:23 <stillunknown> Noldo: I think so, why wouldn't it cost money? 07:58:40 <Noldo> I just had an unsure feeling about it 07:59:25 <Phazorx> hylje you remember PS37 bug, reversing trains longer than station? 08:01:06 *** setrodox [setrodox@83-65-235-200.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #openttd 08:09:40 *** ThePizzaKing [~jeff@c211-28-166-77.eburwd2.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: ThePizzaKing] 08:18:23 *** thgergo [~th_gergo@dsl51B789A3.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #openttd 08:24:40 *** ThePizzaKing [~jeff@c211-28-166-77.eburwd2.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 08:24:50 *** Purno [~Purno@5357D37C.cable.casema.nl] has joined #openttd 08:26:16 *** Zr40_ [~Zr40@zr40.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:28:01 *** Nickman [~nick_defr@d54C1C327.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 08:30:03 *** XeryusTC [~irc@cc480157-b.sneek1.fr.home.nl] has joined #openttd 08:41:45 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1F188.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 08:45:46 <Noldo> I wonder why SubtractMoneyFromAnyPlayer(...) is static 08:49:21 <Bjarni> maybe because it's only called from one file? :) 08:49:44 <Bjarni> use static whenever possible. It helps the linker 08:51:17 <Noldo> hmm 08:53:20 <Noldo> it is called from that file yes, but there is a need in one place elsewhere 08:55:01 <Bjarni> are you sure? 08:55:46 <Noldo> and the need is removed by some nice tricery of temporarily assinging the _current_player global to something else 08:55:58 <Bjarni> if you need it in another file (in your patch), then consider if you decided on the right design, if you really need it and if so, remove the static if you have to 08:56:01 <Noldo> and then using SubtractMoneyFromPlayer function 08:57:27 <Noldo> well it's just a little thing and has nothing to with the thing I'm really doing 08:57:39 <ln-> why wouldn't you too temporarily assign something to _current_player. 08:57:42 <Bjarni> if it's unrelated, you shouldn't touch it 08:57:50 <Bjarni> at least not in the same diff 08:59:22 <Bjarni> actually I think it's a good idea to keep SubtractMoneyFromAnyPlayer() within a well defined area of the code. We wouldn't want a bug in say roadveh_cmd.cpp to take money from the wrong player 08:59:42 <Noldo> true 09:00:34 <Bjarni> right now roadveh_cmd.cpp works on current player being set when calling commands or by v->owner.... kind of tricky to mess that up 09:00:57 <Bjarni> I mean to mess it up unintentionally 09:08:36 <Bjarni> hmm 09:08:55 <Bjarni> maybe SubtractMoneyFromAnyPlayer() should be a private function in the player struct... 09:09:10 <Bjarni> but this was coded when it was C only and it works 09:10:31 <Bjarni> well, at least SubtractMoneyFromAnyPlayer() could do with an enum... it's full of magic numbers 09:10:32 <stillunknown> Bjarni: why was m7 put in a seperate struct? 09:11:07 <Bjarni> err 09:11:14 <Bjarni> good question 09:11:50 <Bjarni> I guess it could be some memory management so it's made like that in order not to waste memory while keeping it at a high speed 09:11:57 <Bjarni> high speed access, that is 09:12:50 <stillunknown> So, i did remember correctly, was unsure. 09:12:57 <Bjarni> if I recall correctly, the struct is optimised for 32 bit CPUs... adding m7 would waste a lot of memory because then the struct's total size wouldn't be a multiply of 32 bits 09:13:23 <Bjarni> you can check this very easily... is the struct a multiply of 4 bytes :) 09:13:28 <stillunknown> it would have become 10 or 12 bytes iirc 09:13:47 <stillunknown> 09:14:23 <Bjarni> besides it doesn't matter much as the code shouldn't access it directly anyway and it's not that tricky to ensure that the access functions can deal with this correctly 09:14:55 <stillunknown> Bjarni: Do you know why most people here are very wary of community made patches? 09:15:23 <Bjarni> efficient memory is important if the game should keep working on old hardware or small devices like PSP 09:16:07 <stillunknown> Is that the anser to my last question? 09:16:15 <Bjarni> no 09:17:16 <Bjarni> it's really time consuming to read somebody else's diff files and understand them. Usually it doesn't stop there because a fair amount of them are crap, some needs improvements and only a few can be committed unmodified 09:18:21 <stillunknown> Bjarni: have you seen the hashmap improvement patch? (does it stand a chance?) 09:18:22 <Bjarni> if we just accepted them without the time consuming parts, then our code would become really unstable and much harder to read 09:19:10 <Bjarni> I didn't read it, but I think it has a good chance of getting added whenever it's completely done. Last time I checked, it still lacked a bit of work 09:19:19 <Bjarni> but that wasn't yesterday 09:20:23 <stillunknown> I have improved the parts that were unclear to me, but what defines completely done in this case? 09:21:44 <Noldo> It seems I didn't break anything 09:22:27 <Noldo> AIs are crazy on a small map :D 09:23:18 <Noldo> it terraforms so much it looks like the ground is alive 09:25:48 <blathijs> Bjarni: Could you remove the old debian packages from SF? 09:32:20 *** Ammller [~Ammler@adsl-84-226-105-130.adslplus.ch] has joined #openttd 09:36:14 *** Ammler [~Ammler@adsl-84-227-166-65.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:37:33 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: bjarni * r10080 /trunk/src/players.cpp: -Cleanup: replaced magic numbers in SubtractMoneyFromAnyPlayer() with enum values 09:38:06 <Bjarni> silly... we used the enum elsewhere, but when reading the flag, it used magic numbers 09:38:14 <Bjarni> blathijs: sure 09:38:27 <blathijs> Bjarni: Thanks :-) 09:39:44 <Bjarni> done 09:51:47 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@212.24.150.226] has joined #openttd 09:56:20 <Bjarni> <Noldo> It seems I didn't break anything <--- I find that hard to believe... everybody breaks something. It's just a matter of time before the obscene new bug is found 09:56:48 <Noldo> that's why there is the 'seems' word 09:57:13 <Bjarni> like the first version of autoreplace. It crashed in MP if the lag was too big 09:57:46 <Bjarni> like if a train completely left a depot before the command was executed (it was issued when it entered) 09:58:07 <Bjarni> so short trains and/or really bad lag crashed the games 09:58:14 *** kaan [~Klaus@82.192.152.195] has joined #openttd 09:58:21 <kaan> morning all 09:58:23 <Bjarni> naturally I never found that bug when testing locally 09:58:34 <Bjarni> it's not morning at all 09:58:37 <Bjarni> :p 09:58:53 * Bjarni wrote his first svn entry at 6:18 today 09:59:01 <Bjarni> not OTTD though :/ 10:00:50 *** DJ_Mirage [~sexybigge@biggetje.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 10:03:51 * kaan thinks Bjarni needs to get a sence of sleeping the real morning away on sundays 10:04:10 <Bjarni> me too 10:04:18 <Bjarni> but I woke up and couldn't sleep 10:04:18 * boekabart did, but didn't want to 10:04:27 <Bjarni> too hot 10:04:28 <boekabart> lost half a day :( 10:04:53 *** Noldo [vheino@jumi.lut.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:05:18 <kaan> hehe, when you live by the lake and forest its nice and warm, not hot and dreadfull :D 10:06:05 <Bjarni> the same should be true when living at the sea :s 10:06:09 <Bjarni> but not today 10:06:29 *** Noldo [vheino@jumi.lut.fi] has joined #openttd 10:06:36 <Bjarni> wb Noldo 10:06:44 <kaan> Bjarni: where do you live? 10:06:58 <Noldo> I decided to ^S my irssi 10:07:12 <Bjarni> @home 10:07:13 <Bjarni> :p 10:07:42 <kaan> oh, that famous spot near the sea :P 10:07:58 <Bjarni> I'm not stupid enough to give away my address in here... people could show up in person to try to make me do stuff to the code 10:08:08 <Bjarni> I can imagine some people, who might do that :( 10:08:24 <kaan> I was thinking more like what country or sea ;) 10:08:36 <Bjarni> Denmark 10:08:46 <Bjarni> you should use /whois and you would have known :p 10:09:01 <kaan> I dont use /whois, its never reiable 10:09:07 <kaan> *reliable 10:09:20 <Bjarni> btw how can you be in Denmark and NOT be somewhat close to sea... ;) 10:09:38 <Bjarni> but it's pretty close 10:09:39 <kaan> easy, take a look at nørup ;) 10:09:58 <kaan> islands or mainland? east or west coast? 10:10:00 <Bjarni> you replaced sea with sø.... error in translation xD 10:10:17 <kaan> hehe 10:10:51 <Bjarni> well 10:11:15 <Bjarni> if I decided to cut some trees and stuff, then I would be able to see Sweden from here 10:11:26 <kaan> ok, thats the problem then 10:11:39 <kaan> east coast in calm winds 10:11:44 *** TinoM [~Tino@i5387CCE5.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 10:11:49 <kaan> too much heat builds up :) 10:12:38 *** Zavior [~Zavior@d195-237-7-209.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:13:16 *** lolman_ [~lolman@cpc3-leds2-0-0-cust55.leed.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:13:32 <kaan> ok, all of you guys with a personal vendetta against bjarni, go to sweeden and look for places where you can see denmark ;) 10:13:42 <Bjarni> shit 10:13:54 *** |Gekkko| [~Gekkko@CPE-138-130-132-50.nsw.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 3.2.6 Anomalies http://www.kvirc.net/] 10:14:12 <Bjarni> that would be like 90% of everybody on the other side >_< 10:14:32 <kaan> And now they know where to look ;) 10:14:45 * Bjarni decides to hide in Sweden and watch the people looking for him in Denmark 10:14:53 <kaan> nice plan 10:15:05 *** Zavior [~Zavior@d195-237-7-209.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd 10:16:25 <mikk36> lol 10:16:36 <mikk36> what do you have against Bjarni, kaan ? 10:16:54 <kaan> nothing much, i treat everyone like that :P 10:17:13 <mikk36> so you have a vendetta against me too ? 10:17:17 <Bjarni> sure 10:17:19 <Bjarni> we all do 10:17:33 <mikk36> :) 10:17:43 <mikk36> at least i'm not different from you then :P 10:17:54 <Bjarni> hmm 10:18:06 <mikk36> in that matter :P 10:18:08 <kaan> consider me the great equaliser ;) 10:18:17 <Noldo> what was the svn command to use when conflict has been resolved 10:18:34 <Bjarni> svn up? 10:18:39 <Bjarni> svn commit? 10:18:43 <Bjarni> svn diff? 10:18:49 <Bjarni> what do you want to do? :) 10:18:52 <ln-> svn resolved 10:18:53 <kaan> svn --help 10:19:31 <mikk36> hehe 10:19:32 <Noldo> missed the d 10:20:25 <kaan> oh well 10:20:54 <kaan> i have this idea that i cant seem to get mysefl to start implementing 10:21:06 <kaan> if i bother you guys with it i might do it 10:21:51 <kaan> the idea is to make two classes: DepotBackup and VehicleBackup 10:22:38 <kaan> They would be used when cloning vehicles and upgrading them across tracktypes and so on 10:23:07 <Bjarni> cloning across tracktypes? 10:23:26 <Bjarni> wouldn't that be autoreplace across tracktypes? 10:23:45 <Bjarni> and I wondered about that as well 10:23:49 <Bjarni> well 10:23:53 <Bjarni> sort of the samem 10:23:55 <Bjarni> *same 10:24:06 <kaan> the idea is that you can create a VehicleBackup with a Vehicle as parameter and then it saves all the data, this makes the backup able to return the cost for several operations on that vehicle, like cloning or upgrading replacing and so on 10:24:28 <Bjarni> it should be two depots next to each other and a train entering one depot would be replaced to the other type in the other depot 10:24:37 <Bjarni> I just can't get assed to code it :p 10:24:41 <kaan> and if there is money enough it can also execute the wished operation 10:25:24 <kaan> Bjarni: that where the DepotBackup class comes into play 10:26:43 <Bjarni> have you seen how autoreplace works? 10:26:50 <Bjarni> it's a vehicle by vehicle action 10:27:03 <kaan> if you use the upgrade tool on a depot then it will make a DepotBackup that in turn will make VehicleBackup of all vehilcles in the depot and then if all things are alright you can destroy the original depot and place a new one and populate it with upgraded vehicles 10:28:07 <kaan> no i havent, and its entirely on purpose 10:28:27 <kaan> im writing a new solution to an old problem ;) 10:28:57 <Bjarni> so if the train enters a depot, then get the money from selling it (before selling it), then move though it vehicle by vehicle to generate the new train in the other depot and then it was done, move the cargo, sell the old train and repay the price of the old train (you started by borrowing it and now you get the money again by selling, so to avoid double payment) 10:29:19 <Bjarni> it something goes wrong, then it can just sell the new train and report an error and the old train is untouched 10:29:37 <Bjarni> if done correctly, then this can be done for free so the money is also untouched 10:30:19 <kaan> the whole idea was to make a "backup" that you can test to see if all things go well before actually doing any changes in the game world 10:30:20 <mikk36> Bjarni, what would u say for the minimum requirements of openttd ? 10:31:12 <Bjarni> mikk36: depends on the map size and such... I used to run it on a 266 MHz PPC.... worked ok for decent screen sizes and map sizes, but it was more or less maxed out so fast forward gained max 10% speed 10:31:12 <mikk36> with gui 10:31:24 <stillunknown> mikk36: Depends on many factors (i know i'm not Bjarni). 10:31:53 <mikk36> i tried it on 1Ghz Athlon, G400, 1GB ram and it was pure laghell, already at the start screen 10:32:00 <Bjarni> maybe the game is a bit more demanding today... it has been a while since I used that computer 10:32:12 <kaan> Bjarni: besides, i was thinking of using the same money buffer as the replace function has 10:32:16 <Bjarni> 1 GHz should be enough 10:32:33 <stillunknown> http://bugs.openttd.org/task/853 <-- bug on the hashmap patch 10:32:50 <mikk36> well, i got only maybe max 15fps out of it on the start screen 10:32:56 <stillunknown> mikk36: what OS do you run? 10:33:00 <mikk36> ~800x600 or whatever that default screensize 10:33:03 <mikk36> xp pro 10:33:09 <Bjarni> stillunknown: it's a patch, not a bug... see task type 10:33:23 <Bjarni> default is 640x480 10:33:29 <mikk36> well, that then 10:33:30 <mikk36> i 10:33:30 <Bjarni> I used OSX 10.2.8 10:33:32 <stillunknown> But it's still on a bugtracker ;-) 10:33:40 <mikk36> m on 1600x1200 at my work 10:33:45 <mikk36> i'm* 10:33:49 <Bjarni> stillunknown: it's on our task tracker ;) 10:34:21 <mikk36> editing pdf's relatively easily 10:35:01 <Bjarni> kaan: how do you plan on making the cache.... I would like to see that 10:35:05 <mikk36> has anyone else testid openttd on a matrox card ? 10:35:09 <mikk36> tested* 10:35:16 <kaan> cashe? 10:35:27 <Bjarni> I know, but how? 10:35:35 <kaan> what cashe? 10:35:58 <Bjarni> the vehicle backup thing 10:36:02 <kaan> oh 10:36:14 <stillunknown> mikk36: You have official drivers installed for your card? 10:36:18 <mikk36> ofc 10:36:19 <kaan> linked lists mostly 10:37:17 <Bjarni> but the vehicles are in the pool system... 10:37:52 <kaan> oh, but im not going anywhere near using the Vehicle class for anything but reading existing vehicles 10:38:12 <Bjarni> then how will you restore your backup? 10:38:17 <kaan> VehicleBackup will be your basic wagon or whatever 10:39:10 <Bjarni> how about storing the vehicle struct and then use memcpy to get everything? 10:39:11 <kaan> DepotBackup::CloneVehicle(Vehicle v) 10:39:20 <Bjarni> you would have to deal with vehicle pointers though if you do that 10:39:32 <kaan> oh, right ;) 10:40:43 * Bjarni wonders if this can be applied to autoreplace without making it too slow 10:40:51 <kaan> Im thinking that it will not be any kind of optimised code, but rather made to be easy to understand as these operations dont occour often 10:41:16 <Bjarni> wrong 10:41:17 <kaan> autoreplace is one usecase this should work on 10:41:30 <Bjarni> it will happen all the time when somebody switches from one railtype to another 10:41:56 <stillunknown> Striving for optimized code is always, but do keep it understandable. 10:41:58 <kaan> all the time, as in every 5 minutes? 10:42:27 <stillunknown> kaan: Imagine if a lot of features were coded with the same idea. 10:42:40 <Bjarni> as in "happens in bursts, which can make slow clients in MP drop because they can't keep up" 10:42:49 <kaan> good point 10:43:02 <stillunknown> Also keep in mind it should run on slower platforms. 10:43:19 <kaan> this approach is mostly a memory expensive one rather than cpu expensive 10:43:39 <stillunknown> How memory expensive? 10:43:40 <Bjarni> if the server is too slow, then it will delay sending "move to next tick" commands 10:44:07 <Bjarni> if a client is too slow, but the server can keep up, then the client has no way to tell that it's behind the action and it drops 10:44:28 <Bjarni> because of that we should try to even the load 10:44:36 <Bjarni> over many ticks if possible 10:44:53 <kaan> that would be possible with this approach 10:45:19 <kaan> you can restrict the making of backups to X per tick 10:45:27 <Bjarni> this is why autoreplace is nice... it works on VehicleEnterDepot() and odds are that it's limited how many vehicles that enters a depot during the same tick 10:46:19 <stillunknown> mikk36: I hope you find out what your problem is. 10:46:26 <kaan> but that would destroy the transaction idea 10:46:34 <mikk36> i most propably won't 10:46:34 <Bjarni> yeah 10:46:49 <mikk36> because i'll upgrade my work computer in max 2 weeks 10:47:33 <Bjarni> this is why two depots next to each other and an action on VehicleEntersDepot() would help... only one train enters the same depot every tick 10:48:04 <Bjarni> and then you wouldn't need a backup because you just delay selling the old one until the new one is complete 10:48:45 <kaan> one of the ideas in this was to unify the way these kinds of actions is handled 10:50:16 <Bjarni> using autoreplace for this as well would unify it, but it would need some work on the autoreplace code to make this work 10:50:40 <kaan> maybe its time i look at the existing code 10:50:54 <Bjarni> autoreplace_cmd.cpp 10:51:07 <kaan> ill have a look :) 10:51:15 <Bjarni> I moved it to a file of it's own not long ago 10:52:40 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10081 /trunk/src/ (ai/default/default.cpp town_cmd.cpp): -Fix [FS851]: towns/AIs didn't build bridges anymore (boekabart). 10:53:24 <Bjarni> hmm 10:53:50 <Bjarni> I wonder how the backup idea would work on autoreplace in general 10:53:58 <Bjarni> I mean if it would be faster or slower 10:54:22 *** scia [~scia@85.149.96.102] has joined #openttd 10:54:23 <kaan> that iompossible to say before i get around to implementing something that works ;) 10:54:30 <Bjarni> yeah 10:55:17 <Bjarni> but having a backup command would solve many of my newGRF compatibility issues as I can just presume it works and if it fails, then revert 10:55:41 <kaan> thats one major selling point i guess :) 10:55:51 *** Touqen [~stephen@c-66-31-55-122.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:59:18 <Bjarni> I wondered about how to make the backup, but just making a linked list (or actually an array of the correct length... we know the needed length when backing up) might do the trick if handled correctly 10:59:49 <Bjarni> but it would have to do way more than you just mentioned :/ 10:59:59 <Bjarni> or else it will fuck up 11:00:03 <kaan> Id prefer <List> as you can iterate over it 11:00:49 <Bjarni> since it's a fixed size, you should use vector. It's like an array, but you can iterate over it and extend it if needed 11:00:57 <kaan> yes, there would have to be all kinds os securty checks and bell and whistles 11:01:12 <kaan> ok then, i give in ;) 11:02:14 <kaan> I was thinking that once you have a backup in hand, then you can ask it to simulate varius operations and return the cost, or even if its possible 11:02:28 *** Touqen [~stephen@c-66-31-55-122.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 11:02:44 <Bjarni> it would be hard to simulate 11:02:49 <Bjarni> ... or would it 11:03:11 <hylje> transaction-based replacing! 11:03:13 <kaan> not if its the same code that actually does the work when you turn simulate off ;) 11:03:19 <hylje> now with military grade reliability! 11:03:44 <kaan> hylje: yup ;) 11:03:54 <Bjarni> the problem with the simulation is the pool thing 11:04:14 <kaan> i dont know one bit about the pool, please tell me what the problem is? 11:04:27 <Bjarni> whenever you buy something, it will end up in the pool 11:04:42 <Bjarni> when you sell something, it's presumed to be in the pool 11:05:00 <Bjarni> think of the pool as a giant <List> 11:05:10 <Bjarni> we just made custom code to handle it to make it faster 11:05:38 <kaan> ok, then waht is the problem, every backup object isnt in the pool 11:05:42 <blathijs> Bjarni: It's more like an array than a List, since every item has an index 11:05:43 <Bjarni> it contains all vehicles in the game (we use 16 bit VehicleIDs, so it's 64000 player vehicles+ some reserved stuff) 11:05:57 <Bjarni> blathijs: right.. good point 11:06:42 <Bjarni> all the functions to build and sell vehicles interacts with the pool and presumes that the vehicle is inside the pool 11:07:01 <kaan> yes ... 11:07:21 <Bjarni> so mixing an external list with the pool would be bad 11:07:36 <kaan> abstraction is key 11:07:40 <Bjarni> making a backup would most likely be just that 11:08:00 <Bjarni> the ability to store the info on the vehicles 11:08:06 <kaan> the backup isnt real in any sence, but a real vehilche can be made with the data in the backup 11:08:22 <Noldo> blueprint? 11:09:16 <kaan> its just a matter of making the conversion at the right time :) 11:09:19 <Bjarni> the backup would contain the vehicle struct. Restoring the backup would be to request x free slots in the pool (it's returned as an array with a pointer to each free place), so it can be copied back into the pool 11:10:27 <Bjarni> so it would likely be like: backup, work on original. If it fails, then sell original and request X free places in the pool to restore the vehicle. Fix the pointers as it's likely not in the same location in the pool anymore 11:10:48 *** geoffk [~geoffk@host86-130-159-207.range86-130.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 11:11:14 <Bjarni> also cash flow should be 0, so you have to pay -income from selling the old train 11:11:40 <Bjarni> doing it any other way would likely cause more problems than it will solve 11:11:59 <kaan> VehicleBackup::ProduceVehicle(VehicleType, TrackType, CargoRefit) soemthing like that, mind the pseudocode ;) 11:12:47 <Bjarni> if the vehicle struct is stored in the backup, then we store everything you just wrote as arguments 11:13:19 <kaan> well in talking conversion they might differ in the new version 11:13:23 <Bjarni> so it's just store, and when reverting, it's moving the data back and setting up the next and first pointers 11:13:53 <Bjarni> and it will be 100% like the old one 11:13:57 <kaan> well, thats drifting a bit far from my original thought now ;) 11:14:10 <Bjarni> err, every single vehicle pointer in the restored train should be checked 11:14:33 <Bjarni> dualheaded engines would need to set up a pointer to the other end as well 11:14:56 <Bjarni> <kaan> well, thats drifting a bit far from my original thought now ;) <-- maybe, but it's drifting towards something that might actually work 11:15:20 <kaan> thats one way to look at it :P 11:15:24 *** Gekkko[PDA] [gekko@64.79.209.123] has left #openttd [] 11:15:39 <kaan> anyway, im glad that i seem to have inspired you 11:16:06 <Noldo> I managed to get rid of _yearly_expenses_type 11:16:21 <blathijs> Bjarni: What exactly would a "vehicle backup" be? 11:16:33 <blathijs> a vehicle that doesn't really exist but can be cloned? 11:16:50 <Bjarni> both yes and no 11:17:27 *** lolman [~lolman@cpc3-leds2-0-0-cust55.leed.cable.ntl.com] has joined #openttd 11:17:32 <kaan> as i read bjarni its a placeholder for vehicledata that you can use to restore a vehicle 11:18:06 <Bjarni> instead of doing a whole lot of magic checks to estimate if a replace can take place, then it can copy all the vehicle structs into a vector and then just try to replace. If it fails, then it should sell all the vehicles in question and restore the original based on the data in the vector 11:18:43 <Bjarni> then the magic would be to ensure that no vehicle pointers messes up and that the total costs ends up as 0 11:19:09 <blathijs> ah, to prevent autoreplace from failing 11:19:10 <Bjarni> the alternative would be to work on autoreplace whenever a new newGRF feature breaks it 11:19:43 <blathijs> how exactly does NewGRF break autoreplace? Introduce unanticipated costs? 11:19:59 <Bjarni> well, it will ensure that in the eyes of the user, nothing happened if the replaced failed 11:20:48 <Bjarni> <blathijs> how exactly does NewGRF break autoreplace? Introduce unanticipated costs? <-- no. The last bug I fixed was due to the new engine that had the restriction that it couldn't be joined with the cars 11:21:10 <Bjarni> and because of that, the user noticed two half trains in the depot, both stopped 11:21:46 *** pro [~http@80-240-220-232.dnat.migtel.ru] has joined #openttd 11:21:51 <Bjarni> if the backup was in place, then it would notice the problem, sell everything, pay back the income from the selling and restore the original vehicle 11:21:56 <Bjarni> nomatter what went wrong 11:22:22 <blathijs> Can't you simply create the new train first, then if that worked, sell the old train? 11:22:28 <kaan> Its a good solution to that specific problem :) 11:22:49 <Noldo> does vehicle purchase price change when bying and selling vehicles? 11:23:11 <Bjarni> blathijs: not if I only has to replace a few units of a long train, say like 2 engines in a 10 unit train... the rest should remain the same 11:23:21 <Bjarni> Noldo: not if the age is 0 11:23:31 <Bjarni> which it would be in this case 11:24:23 <Bjarni> blathijs: I tried making a brand new train and a few other ideas like it... they all failed 11:24:35 <kaan> oh, i have to go or ill mis my workout 11:24:47 <kaan> see ya later :) 11:24:51 <Bjarni> you don't need a workout in order to code 11:24:52 <Bjarni> :p 11:25:09 <kaan> no, its entirely for the benefit of women 11:25:14 <Bjarni> ahh 11:25:17 <Bjarni> then it makes sense 11:25:21 <Bjarni> sort of 11:25:21 <kaan> ;) 11:26:09 *** Alltaken [~chatzilla@121.72.235.8] has joined #openttd 11:26:18 <Bjarni> Alltaken! 11:26:22 <Bjarni> long time no see 11:26:29 <Bjarni> nice to see you again :) 11:26:44 <Bjarni> hmm 11:26:54 <Alltaken> hi Bjarni 11:27:07 <Bjarni> Alltaken is in the winter time... maybe it's a decent temperature at your place :) 11:27:08 <blathijs> ey Alltaken 11:27:12 <Bjarni> unlike here :s 11:28:05 <Noldo> Plaah, my computer can't take the heat :/ 11:28:35 <Alltaken> its 8 degrees max today 11:28:41 <Alltaken> nice and cold 11:28:56 <Bjarni> then I guess you don't have hardware overheating issues right now 11:29:22 <Bjarni> Noldo: my computer can... except for the TV tuner >_< 11:30:15 <Noldo> the other one that tries it's best to work like a server is not in any problems 11:34:01 <Alltaken> Bjarni: well i have heaters turned on everywhere so yeah :D 11:34:29 <Alltaken> i recently moved down south in my country, so i am prety close to antarctica now. nice and cold. perhaps i will get snow where i live for the first time in my life 11:34:58 <Bjarni> no snow???? 11:35:11 <Bjarni> that's... inhuman conditions :o 11:36:23 <stillunknown> Noldo: Is your computer undercooled or just poor hardware? 11:36:30 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host202-235-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 11:36:38 <Wolf01> hello 11:36:38 <Bjarni> last winter we had some snowplow trains that derailed due to a whole lot of compressed snow 11:36:51 <Bjarni> I think two of them derailed 11:37:46 <Bjarni> btw we lost our last commercially driven steam locomotive when it derailed with a snowplow 11:37:51 <Bjarni> ... in 1979 11:38:01 <Bjarni> it's actually not that long ago we used steam 11:39:44 <Noldo> stillunknown: undercooled 11:40:26 <stillunknown> Noldo: then i suggest you fix it sometime soon ;-) 11:40:44 <stillunknown> I have a low airflow system, but it's holding up quite well. 11:41:02 <stillunknown> I must admit ambient temperatures have not exceeded 27-28 degrees C yet. 11:52:23 *** moe [~Maui_key@p5498E216.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 11:56:56 *** kaan [~Klaus@82.192.152.195] has left #openttd [] 12:06:49 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1F188.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:07:21 *** HMage [HMage@89-178-57-200.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 12:09:59 *** HMage` [HMage@89-178-184-17.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 600 seconds] 12:15:54 *** glx [glx@bny93-6-82-245-156-124.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #openttd 12:15:54 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 12:16:18 *** XeryusTC [~irc@cc480157-b.sneek1.fr.home.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 600 seconds] 12:16:29 *** HMage [HMage@89-178-57-200.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: HMage] 12:20:11 *** Hendikins|BNEABXMEL is now known as Hendikins 12:20:24 <Bjarni> if it's a low noise system people want, then they should use temperature controlled fan speeds 12:20:49 <Bjarni> this way it will usually not make a lot of noise while they can still keep cool on a hot day 12:21:34 *** skidd13 [~skidd13@p548A4C0E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 12:23:02 <geoffk> northbridge and use a system thats not overpowering its not needed for most things 12:23:58 <geoffk> i can get by on PIII works to do anythign i need to 12:24:37 <geoffk> i could use slower but restrictive of what desktop i can run 12:25:43 <geoffk> having said that dont rush out to buy a pIII scram is like gold dust now 12:25:50 <geoffk> sdram* 12:27:44 <geoffk> i've even had problems buying fans to and heatsinks fit on some low end old systems 12:32:20 *** boekabart [~bdb@e215192.upc-e.chello.nl] has left #openttd [] 12:36:04 *** Alltaken [~chatzilla@121.72.235.8] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.4/2007051502]] 12:38:28 *** lolman [~lolman@cpc3-leds2-0-0-cust55.leed.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:42:48 *** XeryusTC [~irc@cc480157-b.sneek1.fr.home.nl] has joined #openttd 12:45:41 *** HMage [Queneex@89-178-57-200.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 12:53:55 *** boekabart [~bdb@e215192.upc-e.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 12:54:04 *** boekabart [~bdb@e215192.upc-e.chello.nl] has left #openttd [] 12:55:31 *** KritiK [Maxim@ppp83-237-103-96.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #openttd 12:59:07 <stillunknown> Bjarni: a well designed system doesn't even need high speed fans at all 13:02:49 <stillunknown> Unless ofcource it get's really hot (35 degrees C for example). 13:06:27 *** Mucht [~Mucht@p57A0E3F7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 13:08:14 <peter1138> get's? 13:12:48 *** Mucht [~Mucht@p57A0E3F7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 13:13:39 *** skidd13 [~skidd13@p548A4C0E.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #openttd [] 13:15:15 *** scia [~scia@85.149.96.102] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:19:23 *** Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd 13:19:32 <Noldo> which parts of the code make use of c++ features? 13:20:40 <hylje> yapf 13:26:56 <Rubidium> Noldo: lots of parts 13:27:17 <Noldo> I noticed some :: in vehicle stuff 13:27:36 <Rubidium> and it's not easy to tell you which ones exactly 13:30:09 *** HMage` [Queneex@89-178-121-124.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 13:31:20 *** Osai [~Osai@pD9EB4D86.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:31:34 *** Osai [~Osai@pD9EB4D86.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 13:34:00 *** Osai [~Osai@pD9EB4D86.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:34:24 *** Osai [~Osai@pD9EB4D86.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 13:35:28 *** Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:36:44 *** Osai [~Osai@pD9EB4D86.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:37:15 *** Osai [~Osai@pD9EB4D86.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 13:38:22 *** Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd 13:38:54 <Wolf01> ooook, now that i have my new ipaq with windows mobile 5 i must look for a mobile ottd version 13:39:19 *** HMage [Queneex@89-178-57-200.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 600 seconds] 13:41:10 <Wolf01> how much old is this? http://handheld.softpedia.com/get/Games/Strategy/Open-TTD-for-Pocket-PC-11622.shtml 13:42:05 <Rubidium> pre 0.5.0 13:43:34 <Wolf01> this mean that i must set up a compiler for windows mobile 13:45:01 *** Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:45:17 <Rubidium> ask them 13:45:25 <Wolf01> brrr the WM5 SDK is 175MB 13:47:50 <Wolf01> maybe i can become the official WM5 port maintainer :D 13:48:43 *** Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd 13:48:53 <Noldo> :) 13:56:02 *** Osai [~Osai@pD9EB4D86.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:56:08 *** Osai [~Osai@pD9EB4D86.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 14:02:50 *** Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:03:09 *** orudge [~orudge@91.84.56.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 600 seconds] 14:04:06 <Bjarni> <Wolf01> maybe i can become the official WM5 port maintainer :D <-- that would be nice 14:04:32 <Bjarni> specially if the port is a port and not a hack like the one you just linked to 14:04:43 <Bjarni> they screwed up the window GUI code to make it work 14:05:21 *** orudge [~orudge@91.84.56.243] has joined #openttd 14:05:24 *** mode/#openttd [+o orudge] by ChanServ 14:06:00 *** Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd 14:06:05 <Wolf01> i don't have enough knowledge to change massively the code to make it work, but i'll try to get it work as it is 14:06:46 <Bjarni> the general problem is that some windows are too big to fit on the screen 14:07:02 <Bjarni> how big is your monitor? 14:07:12 <Bjarni> resolution, not inches :) 14:07:14 <Wolf01> mmm 14:07:28 <Wolf01> 240x320 14:07:55 <Bjarni> can't it be turned into 320x240? 14:08:06 <Wolf01> yes, if i rotate the pda 14:08:43 <Bjarni> anyway OpenTTD is designed with 640x480 in mind so some windows default size is like 400 pixels high/wide 14:08:54 <Wolf01> the camera software works in 320x240, so it shouldn't be a problem 14:09:25 <Bjarni> well, if you get it working, then we can talk about the window sizes 14:09:37 <Bjarni> it's the same issue on PSP and it more or less works 14:10:01 <Wolf01> another problem is that i don't have enough buttons 14:10:10 <Bjarni> hmm 14:10:18 <Bjarni> how many do you have? 14:10:29 <Wolf01> i have only the directional pad, and some other buttons around 14:10:47 <Wolf01> but i think they are binded to the phone functions 14:11:04 <Wolf01> as i saw that only 2 buttons were customisable 14:11:14 <Bjarni> that would be enough 14:11:27 <Bjarni> mouse + button + control 14:11:27 <Wolf01> if you want to look at it, is the ipaq rw6815 14:12:17 <Wolf01> the mouse can be used with the touch screen 14:13:00 *** kaan [~Klaus@82.192.152.195] has joined #openttd 14:13:08 <Bjarni> then it's easy 14:13:11 <kaan> 4,5 tons later .... 14:13:21 <kaan> im feeling a bit used :P 14:13:32 <Bjarni> the mouse is the touch screen, you have 4 direction keys, that can be used for control and stuff 14:13:42 <Bjarni> touching the screen is the same as a click 14:14:29 <Kjetil> (tapping should equal a click) 14:15:05 <Phazorx> ping peter1138 14:15:37 <Bjarni> we have different drivers to translate keyboard input (like different drivers for mic, video, sound and so on). We can just map the direction keys to keys we need, such as shift, control and so on 14:16:01 <Bjarni> tab = click, hold on the screen = hold down the mouse button 14:18:14 <Bjarni> kaan: so you saw a lot of bouncing boobs and sweaty asses? 14:18:46 <Wolf01> 85% of the SDK :P 14:19:36 <hylje> DS port of ottd D: 14:19:57 <Sacro> boobs? 14:20:24 <Wolf01> we talk of sex and then Sacro popups... 14:20:53 <Bjarni> yeah 14:21:07 <hylje> highlight 14:21:37 <Bjarni> I think it highlights on boob, sex and so on 14:21:40 <Sacro> nope 14:21:45 <Sacro> only highlights on Sacro 14:21:45 <Wolf01> yes 14:22:02 <Wolf01> we don't believe it 14:22:12 <Bjarni> Sacro: I don't trust that... you always show up whenever a word like that is mentioned 14:22:50 <Sacro> Bjarni: i happened to be following the channel 14:23:00 <Bjarni> idle bastard 14:23:11 <Bjarni> peeping tom 14:23:13 <Sacro> i idle in a few channels 14:23:17 <Bjarni> lurker 14:23:41 <Bjarni> since you always do that, then you have to spend a great deal of time lurking 14:23:49 <hylje> LURK MOAR 14:25:03 <kaan> actually i was almost alone in there 14:25:14 <kaan> a shame really 14:26:38 <kaan> there was nice aiconditioning 14:28:29 <Bjarni> they are tending some AI? 14:30:33 <Wolf01> doh, i need visual studio 14:31:03 <Wolf01> i hope the express edition is enough 14:32:30 <Bjarni> it would be nicer if the makefile could do the trick :/ 14:34:08 <Wolf01> i hope also that the free disk space is enough! 14:34:16 *** lolman [~lolman@cpc3-leds2-0-0-cust55.leed.cable.ntl.com] has joined #openttd 14:36:35 <Bjarni> 128 mb... should be overkill 14:36:47 <Bjarni> but then again you likely want to have other stuff on it as well 14:37:08 <Bjarni> 416 MHz... might have an issue with background saving 14:37:19 <Bjarni> I mean it could slow down 14:39:17 <hylje> priority! 14:39:20 <Bjarni> or take more than a month to save 14:39:45 <Bjarni> on the other hand it shouldn't play big maps 14:40:00 <glx> <Wolf01> i hope the express edition is enough <-- no it isn't 14:40:21 <Wolf01> -_- 14:40:44 <hylje> enjoy your crippled software 14:41:53 <Bjarni> it should be way easier to get it working on nokia S770 and similar (like S800... I think it's named). They have no screen size issues and uses gcc for compiling 14:42:20 <Bjarni> I hate when you pay for some hardware and then you have to pay for a compiler as well 14:42:24 <Sacro> there already is a UIQ3 port 14:42:29 <Sacro> but they haven't released source 14:42:43 <Bjarni> UIQ3? 14:42:55 <Sacro> symbian 14:43:15 <Sacro> http://my-symbian.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30981 14:44:12 <Noldo> it's conceptually in the same level Series40 and 60 14:44:20 <Sacro> i'd like it on my S60 14:44:37 *** DJ_Mirage [~sexybigge@biggetje.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: www.sexybiggetje.nl] 14:44:56 *** DJ_Mirage [~sexybigge@biggetje.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 14:45:26 <Sacro> "Unfortunately language file isn't simple text file and I don't know how to edit it." <- methinks he isn't looking hard enough 14:46:13 *** lolman [~lolman@cpc3-leds2-0-0-cust55.leed.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:46:20 <Wolf01> is still possible to use strgen.exe to compile language files on the fly? 14:46:29 <Sacro> yeah i think so 14:46:32 *** lolman [~lolman@cpc3-leds2-0-0-cust55.leed.cable.ntl.com] has joined #openttd 14:47:37 <Bjarni> strgen would make the lng file from a txt file when you execute it with the right arguments... nobody tells you to do it when compiling the OpenTTD binary 14:47:52 <Bjarni> we scripted it to do so to make it easier, but you can do it later if you like 14:48:48 <Wolf01> i think i need to buy VSstandard from bittorrent 14:49:41 <Bjarni> I heard that they have nice opening hours... like they are open on normal sundays 14:50:00 <Wolf01> i heard it too 14:52:06 <Wolf01> if it will satisfy me enough i'll go buy the hardware edition, call this a tryout :D 14:52:28 <Bjarni> I think many people think like that 14:52:48 <Bjarni> a whole lot of them forget the last part when the "trial period" runs out 14:54:18 <peter1138> :o 14:54:55 <peter1138> i ought to try testing it on my pocket pc device again 14:55:15 <Bjarni> as I said earlier, it's way easier when you can just use GCC and other free to download software 14:55:30 <Bjarni> you don't even have to think about making demos and so on 14:55:42 <peter1138> cross compiling to pocketpc was a bitch last time i tried ;) 14:55:54 <Wolf01> i have a lot of original products, and now that i have enough money i can buy other original products (i'm trying to replace the whole pirate section) 14:56:59 *** skidd13 [~skidd13@p548A6EDE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 14:57:11 *** Zr40 [~Zr40@zr40.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 14:57:13 <Bjarni> what I really hate about commercial products is that I usually lack behind in gaming and when I realise some game would be cool, it's already out of the shops :( 14:57:39 <Bjarni> I even ended up searching for a game where the company went bankrupt once 14:57:55 <Bjarni> I guess I should have bought it earlier :p 14:58:51 <peter1138> what, like TTD? 14:59:08 <Wolf01> i'm still loking for TTDX 14:59:16 <Wolf01> *looking 14:59:24 <Sacro> peter1138: you are wanted in #tycoon 15:00:09 <Wolf01> about games, i wait 'til their price is <=15EUR, and then i purchase them with the probability of 95% 15:00:39 <peter1138> netsplit'd :/ 15:00:44 <Noldo> any devs who have warm feelings about getting rid of _yearly_expences_type global variable? 15:00:49 *** Peakki [antti@cs181000195.pp.htv.fi] has joined #openttd 15:03:14 <peter1138> hmm, is pocketpc little or big endian... 15:03:48 <Wolf01> very little endian :P 15:04:01 <peter1138> ... 15:04:07 <Wolf01> which cpu uses? 15:04:10 <peter1138> arm 15:04:11 <Bjarni> windows... sounds like little endian 15:04:25 <Bjarni> and I think arm is little endian 15:04:43 <hylje> arm can be either 15:05:00 <ln-> and leg? 15:05:16 <hylje> head 15:05:39 <Wolf01> yeah... arm can be both 15:06:05 <ln-> so can powerpc. 15:07:55 *** TinoM| [~Tino@i5387CCE5.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 15:13:54 <Bjarni> usually PowerPC is big endian though 15:14:51 <Bjarni> some of them (like PPC405) has a flag to set endianess. If you write little endian code for it, set it to little endian and if you has some big endian code, then toggle that flag 15:15:04 *** TinoM [~Tino@i5387CCE5.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 600 seconds] 15:22:55 <Wolf01> Bjarni, i must wait and purchase VS2005 :( 15:25:13 <skidd13> peter1138: I rewrote my patch about the text from the order caption widget. Are you ok with it (cause you're native english and me not ;) )? http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=31074&start=41 15:26:51 <Wolf01> ah, Sacro (tits, to get your attention) about my friend who is unable to compile successfuly ottd, he tried with -d but it doesn't say a word... 15:28:38 <Wolf01> with the nightly binary it complaints about language file errors 15:28:43 <Sacro> hmmm 15:28:47 <Sacro> it should return some messages 15:28:52 <Wolf01> but the revision is the same 15:29:23 *** TinoM| is now known as TinoM 15:30:54 <Eddi|zuHause3> Wolf01: you have to copy all files from the nightly archive, not just the binary 15:31:04 <Wolf01> the nightly works 15:31:08 <Eddi|zuHause3> Wolf01: are you sure it's not a dedicated build? 15:31:13 <Wolf01> but the compiled version no 15:32:07 <Wolf01> what's the difference about the language files for the dedicated or the ui? 15:32:22 *** remus_ [numers@c-3516e155.528-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 600 seconds] 15:32:25 <Rubidium> none 15:34:01 <Eddi|zuHause3> the language files are the same, but if you start a dedicated build, no window opens, so it appears like it is doing nothing 15:34:25 <Wolf01> nightly: works 15:34:25 <Wolf01> compiled: does not start, no errors 15:34:25 <Wolf01> compiled+nightly binary: does not start 15:35:39 <skidd13> any notices from configure or windows build? 15:35:57 <Rubidium> Wolf01: what are you using? 15:36:04 <glx> Wolf01: with the corresponding openttd.grf ? 15:36:16 <Rubidium> as compiler 15:36:28 <Wolf01> i think he uses g++ 15:36:35 <Wolf01> he is in ubuntu 7.04 15:37:26 <Rubidium> ah, so he doesn't have any of the sdl development files, so it falls back to a dedicated build 15:37:37 <Rubidium> his configure warns about that 15:37:43 <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, that was my suspicion, too 15:37:44 <Rubidium> (unless he's using non-nightlies) 15:38:03 <Wolf01> warning: no video driver found, building dedicate only 15:38:07 <Eddi|zuHause3> yes 15:38:09 <Wolf01> ok, seem that we found the issue 15:39:20 <peter1138> yeah, "pebkac" :p 15:39:49 <Sacro> well afaik 15:39:59 <Sacro> openttd is going into multiverse 15:41:22 <Rubidium> what's multiverse? 15:41:30 <Sacro> Rubidium: non free repo for Ubuntu 15:41:52 *** skidd13 [~skidd13@p548A6EDE.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #openttd [] 15:42:45 <Rubidium> ah Ubuntu a.k.a. rebranded Debian Unstable ;) (openttd is already in Debian Unstable) 15:43:33 <Sacro> yeah 15:44:57 <Wolf01> so how he can solve that issue? 15:45:19 <Rubidium> install the sdl development stuff 15:45:26 <Eddi|zuHause3> Wolf01: install sdl-dev 15:45:30 <Wolf01> ok 15:45:41 <Sacro> heh 15:45:42 <Eddi|zuHause3> might be called slightly differently 15:45:46 <Sacro> Arch always comes with devel 15:46:03 <Wolf01> the nice thing is that configure detects sdl: "libsdl-dev detected" 15:49:42 <stillunknown> I need some advice, if someone posts a patch to openttd, then by default it becomes gpl code, meaning i can do whatever i want, as long as stay within the bounds of the gpl? 15:52:47 <Eddi|zuHause3> err... i'd say yes... 15:53:42 <izhirahider> How can they put openttd into multiverse? Will they include the trg*.grf and sample.cat into the build, or will the game be uplayable out of the box? 15:54:53 <stillunknown> I don't think anyone ships openttd with data files. 15:54:58 <Eddi|zuHause3> izhirahider: the same as with the debian packages... i.e. without datafiles, and a notice that they are needed 15:55:26 <blathijs> That's why openttd is in contrib in debian instead of main 15:55:39 <Eddi|zuHause3> it has been done a hundred times with other games 15:57:16 <Rubidium> stillunknown: legally it might be gpl, but changing a patch (slowest one by the way) slightly and then posting it as "complete" and "your own" on the bugtracker is not ethical without consent of the author 15:57:17 <Bjarni> kaan (and whoever else is interested): http://devs.openttd.org/~bjarni/vehicle_backup.diff <-- my first draft for backing up and restoring a chain of vehicles (read: train) 15:57:48 <Bjarni> using vector turned out to be messy... this should work even though I haven't implemented anywhere to use this and due to that, it's untested 15:57:58 <stillunknown> Rubidium: I mentioned i got it from somewhere, i'm not even claiming that. 15:57:59 <Bjarni> I guess it could do with more comments as well 15:59:54 <Rubidium> stillunknown: even the numbers in that patch are wrong 16:00:44 <Rubidium> and when something is "confusing", it might be that you don't understand what's happening instead of something being "wrong" 16:01:43 <Rubidium> for example, the map is two times as wide as it is high in the GUI (assuming a square map). Maybe that's the reason why it "halved" the resolution along one side 16:02:57 <Rubidium> and when you try to "fix" the confusing stuff, fix it everywhere instead of only a few instances 16:04:14 <peter1138> ah yes, i was working on the fixed version 16:04:24 <peter1138> before i was rudely dragged to the mother-in-law's 16:04:57 <stillunknown> who are you talking to? 16:05:02 <peter1138> myself 16:05:07 <peter1138> mostly 16:05:53 <Rubidium> oh, stillunknown don't forget that vehicles do not need to be on the same tile to actually collide 16:07:37 <Rubidium> and your hash functions can break very very easily 16:07:49 * Rubidium is off to dinner 16:08:34 <stillunknown> At this point i'm considering doing it myself when i have some more time. 16:26:12 *** SpBot [terom@zapotekII.paivola.fi] has joined #openttd 16:26:15 *** SpBot [terom@zapotekII.paivola.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:26:58 *** Ammller is now known as Ammler 16:26:59 *** SpBot [terom@zapotekII.paivola.fi] has joined #openttd 16:34:39 <kaan> Bjarni: That looks very nice and im sure it will solve some of the problems you have with this. Im not big on the ** malloc this and that, but it looks ok to me. Only thing is that i imagined a more OOP approach to the problem, but ill have to get my ass in gear and show you how that would look wont i? ;) 16:35:21 <Wolf01> glx, do you know if the student edition of the VS2005 is compatible with the WM5 SDK? 16:35:56 <glx> it should, the student version is the full one 16:36:23 <Wolf01> i found an online store which sell it at 62EUR 16:36:59 <glx> I think you must proof you are a student :) 16:37:06 <Wolf01> my sister is student 16:37:22 <kaan> oh then its alright isnt it ;) 16:38:52 <kaan> id say that eighter you pirate all of it or pay what is needed. but thats just me, i have a legal XP somewhere but im pirating the one i use :S so much for principles 16:40:33 <Wolf01> me too 16:41:16 <Sacro> mine is legal 16:41:18 <Sacro> MSDNAA ftw 16:42:08 <Wolf01> my computers have a legal copy of XP installed, one is a laptop with home, the other is my gaming machine with professional 16:42:27 <kaan> I used to run a IT consulting business so most of my software is legal. Maybe thats why i had to close shop ;) 16:43:36 <Wolf01> the server... heh... temporarily xp corporate, when i have enough time and will, i will install a linux distribution 16:51:00 <Bjarni> kaan: if you can write something like this in an OOP way that is just as efficient as this, then I would like to see it :) 16:51:09 *** Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:53:16 <Bjarni> <kaan> I used to run a IT consulting business so most of my software is legal. Maybe thats why i had to close shop ;) <-- ohh that reminds me of the small company (like one person company or something like that) that called MS for technical support. It turned out that the serial number showed that it was a company license for 10k computers and that the company should deal with issues like that internally 16:56:47 *** Sacro [~Ben@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd 16:58:46 <kaan> Bjarni: i dont think it will be as efficient, but i think it will have wider usage. It may even contain almost the same code that you made, but there will be more stuff than that :) 16:59:21 <Bjarni> more stuff? 17:00:45 <kaan> Bjarni: *2: and that is primarily why i dindt have succes as a single person business in IT, you are simply not trusted to know you way around a mouse and it is with good reason. many times it has proven a mistake to take in small independent contractors. 17:00:46 <Sacro> whoo stuf 17:02:27 <Wolf01> i just tried this game: http://sauerbraten.org/ is wonderfull!! 17:02:37 <kaan> yup, more stuff :) 17:02:57 <kaan> when i get around to making it, it will show nicely 17:03:22 *** SpBot [terom@zapotekII.paivola.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 600 seconds] 17:03:42 <Bjarni> why should it be able to do more stuff? 17:03:48 <Bjarni> it backs up the vehicles 17:03:56 <Bjarni> isn't that what we want it to do? 17:04:20 <Kjetil> nah 17:04:29 <Kjetil> We want it to calculate the meaning of life 17:05:04 <Bjarni> but we already know the meaning of life 17:05:17 <glx> isn't it 42? 17:05:23 <Bjarni> it is 17:05:40 <Kjetil> nah.. the book was sensored before publishing.. the real number was changed 17:06:39 <Bjarni> kaan: what do you want it to do on top of backing up the vehicles? I don't think it should do more than it already does 17:06:49 <kaan> Bjarni: yup, its what we want it to do, and more :) 17:06:59 <Bjarni> what more? 17:07:35 <kaan> well, i mentioned that it would be nice if the backup could be altered and the price of alteration returned, and stuff like that 17:08:43 <kaan> you see, where you see the backup as a way to restore after mangling the original, i see the backup as the place to do the mangling 17:09:39 <Bjarni> I think altering the backup would cause bugs that can only be solved by hacks, that can cause new bugs 17:10:02 <kaan> thats because you made the bachup a real Vehicle 17:10:10 <kaan> im not going there 17:10:24 <Kjetil> wouldn't it be easier to materialize the backup.. change it and then backup the new vehicle ? 17:10:25 <Bjarni> that sounds dangerous 17:10:45 <kaan> im making a simuli that can be mangled and if the result is likeable, then it can be instantied in game 17:11:18 <kaan> *instantiated 17:11:41 <peter1138> bah 17:11:50 <kaan> buh :P 17:11:50 <peter1138> just make the vehicle pool transactional 17:12:24 <Bjarni> peter1138: you do that :p 17:12:32 <kaan> hmm, that would be cool as well :) 17:12:50 <kaan> ypu, peter im waiting with my breath withheld :) 17:13:03 *** Jezral [~projectjj@users.kollegienet.dk] has joined #openttd 17:13:08 <peter1138> let's make it use a rdbms first 17:13:31 <kaan> dont you think that its a bit too much overhead? 17:15:52 <kaan> hmmm, i got the cola shakes, i better get to brugsen 17:15:57 <Eddi|zuHause3> 't was a joke :p 17:16:32 *** TinoDidriksen [~projectjj@users.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 600 seconds] 17:22:11 *** skidd13 [~skidd13@p548A6E08.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 17:40:20 *** SpBot [terom@zapotekII.paivola.fi] has joined #openttd 17:40:53 *** sPooT [~spoot@e156067.upc-e.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 17:52:21 <stillunknown> Is the x, y coordinate system oriented around the center of the map? 17:53:22 <Eddi|zuHause3> the very top tile is (0,0) 17:53:28 <Eddi|zuHause3> use the query tool 17:54:05 <hylje> all that to avoid negative numbers 17:55:24 <Eddi|zuHause3> it would make hardly any difference... 17:55:47 <skidd13> you got the sign bit to use for a coordinate too. ;) 17:56:41 <stillunknown> Strange, guess i'll have to figure out why i'm getting negative coordinates. 17:56:47 <Eddi|zuHause3> skidd13: integers use 2-complement, there is no designated sign bit 17:57:29 <skidd13> depends on what car type you use IIRC 17:57:35 <skidd13> car -> var 17:57:57 <Bjarni> we use 2-complement as it's the default one in programming 17:59:56 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause3: is talking about "map" coordinates, stillunknown is talking about "viewport" coordinates I guess 18:00:46 <Eddi|zuHause3> he specifically said "map" 18:00:51 <Rubidium> well, rather "viewport" coordinates translated to "map" coordinates 18:01:27 <Rubidium> and still, there are at least 3 (x,y) coordinate systems in OTTD 18:02:04 <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, tiles, positions and screen coordinates 18:02:40 <Eddi|zuHause3> where the second is actually more like a (x,y,z) coordinate 18:03:08 <stillunknown> I'm talking about the coordinates that exist in multiples of 32 of the map size 18:03:20 <stillunknown> I mean 16. 18:03:22 *** skidd13 [~skidd13@p548A6E08.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #openttd [] 18:03:31 <peter1138> x,y,z then? 18:03:36 <stillunknown> yes. 18:03:48 <peter1138> they can be negative for aircraft, iirc 18:03:54 <peter1138> or ufos, heh 18:04:31 <stillunknown> What sense does a positive coordinate system have, when they can be negative too? 18:04:45 <Rubidium> peter1138: negative for aircraft/ufo shadows to be precise 18:05:19 <Eddi|zuHause3> Rubidium: what if i place an airport near the map edge? 18:06:31 <Rubidium> might be true too, but I've never had any trouble with that, only with aircraft shadows 18:07:01 <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, i noticed those commit messages :) 18:09:20 <Bjarni> bbl 18:10:56 <ln-> http://amd.co.at/anti/kubica.avi 18:11:06 *** Maedhros [~jc@host86-137-64-30.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 18:15:28 <Eddi|zuHause3> ln-: looks evil ;) 18:31:47 <Zr40> any dev around looking for something to do? :) 18:32:19 <ln-> that simply doesn't happen. 18:32:29 <Zr40> :( 18:34:27 *** Peakki [antti@cs181000195.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Lähdössä] 18:40:03 <Maedhros> Zr40: you could just ignore ln- and ask anyway ;) 18:40:44 <ln-> i was assuming i'm already on everyone's ignore list. 18:42:09 *** Ammler [~Ammler@adsl-84-226-105-130.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 600 seconds] 18:43:27 <Zr40> well... anyone dare to point out the flaws in my patch? :) 18:43:34 *** Digitalfox [~chatzilla@bl10-65-179.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.3/2007030919]] 18:44:16 <ln-> the standard processing time for ~10-line patches tends to be several months. 18:44:34 <Zr40> it's not a 10-line patch... it's much longer :) 18:45:22 <stillunknown> What is the idea behind the RemapCoord style coordinate system? 18:45:46 *** Mucht_ [~Mucht@p57A0C5F4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 18:46:16 <peter1138> that gives you screen coordinates 18:47:25 <stillunknown> Very strange coordinates. 18:47:35 <peter1138> not really 18:48:42 <peter1138> you get an x and a y. what is strange about that? 18:50:02 <stillunknown> The way it relies on the normal x and y coordinates. 18:50:25 <peter1138> hmm? 18:50:56 <stillunknown> pt.x = (y - x) * 2; 18:52:14 *** Mucht [~Mucht@p57A0E3F7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 600 seconds] 18:52:20 *** Luukland [~Luukland@s559031d6.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd 18:52:23 <Zr40> when you view the whole map, the (0,0) map coordinates map to the top middle of your viewport 18:52:33 <Zr40> maybe that's got something to do with that 18:52:46 <Luukland> Heya Everyone, I have a small question :P 18:52:59 <Zr40> and a tile is (about? exactly?) twice as wide as it is high 18:53:10 <peter1138> exactly, yes 18:53:16 <Eddi|zuHause3> stillunknown: it's the transformation from isometric view 18:53:45 <Eddi|zuHause3> x direction is two left and one down 18:53:56 <Luukland> If i transport something (for example goods), and than two year i do not transport these goods from that station, will the rating disappear, or stay at 15%: poor? 18:54:03 <Zr40> Eddi|zuHause3: that looks flipped to me 18:54:06 <peter1138> stay at 15% poor 18:54:12 <Eddi|zuHause3> so -2*x in the x part and +x in the y part 18:54:16 <Zr40> Eddi|zuHause3: isn't x left to right, not top to bottom? 18:54:44 <Eddi|zuHause3> x(original) is in map positions 18:55:01 <Luukland> peter1138 ok, but then the factory still leaves some goods at my station, every time a grain trucks delivers some grain right? 18:55:08 <Eddi|zuHause3> x direction is /, y direction is \, i believe 18:55:11 <Zr40> in map coordinates, (0,0) is the top corner 18:55:50 <Zr40> rotate that to be the top left corner 18:55:57 <Zr40> if the X direction is /, that becomes | after rotation 18:56:29 <Eddi|zuHause3> Zr40: the problem is, screen coordinates are reversed 18:56:45 <Eddi|zuHause3> in mathmatical diagrams, x rises to right, and y to the top 18:56:56 <Eddi|zuHause3> on screen, x rises to the right, and y to the bottom 18:57:16 <Zr40> in either case, X still rises to the right 18:57:22 <Zr40> not to the bottom 18:57:55 <Eddi|zuHause3> Zr40: take your right hand, thumb = x, index finger = y, middle finger = z 18:58:26 <Eddi|zuHause3> now turn it that thumb points left, index finger points right, middle finger points up 18:58:31 <Eddi|zuHause3> it's all correct 18:58:55 <Zr40> that's not possible 18:59:17 <Zr40> the thumb and index finger point on the same axis 18:59:26 <Eddi|zuHause3> thumb points left towards you, index finger points right towards you 18:59:38 <Eddi|zuHause3> all fingers have to have an angle of 90° 18:59:56 <Luukland> .......................... 19:01:33 <Luukland> Someone else who can give my the answer on my question? 19:01:54 <Eddi|zuHause3> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-hand_rule 19:01:57 <Zr40> ratings only disappear when the station disappears 19:02:29 <Zr40> Eddi|zuHause3: in that case, the origin seems positioned wrong 19:02:33 <Eddi|zuHause3> i think ratings disappear after they drop to 0% 19:02:48 <Eddi|zuHause3> Zr40: the origin can be placed completely freely 19:03:02 <Eddi|zuHause3> also the direction is irrelevant 19:03:08 <Eddi|zuHause3> relevant is the order of the fingers 19:03:18 <Luukland> Thx Zr40 19:04:55 <Luukland> But why ratings do not disappear... They are just doing nothing... 19:05:02 <Eddi|zuHause3> you have the coordinate system like this: 19:05:05 <Eddi|zuHause3> . z 19:05:06 <Luukland> I believe in TTDpatch, they did disappear 19:05:07 <Eddi|zuHause3> . | 19:05:12 <Eddi|zuHause3> ./ \ 19:05:15 <Eddi|zuHause3> x y 19:05:37 <Zr40> Luukland: I haven't used TTDpatch for a long time, but I don't remember them disappearing there either 19:05:44 <Eddi|zuHause3> it applies to the right hand rule, so it is correct 19:06:14 <Luukland> then I am wrong Zr40, but you dont agree with me that it is useless? 19:06:31 <Zr40> Eddi|zuHause3: any xyz coordinate system applies to the left or right hand rule, as you say rotation doesn't matter 19:07:16 <Eddi|zuHause3> actually, by my argumentation, "left-hand" coordinate systems are "wrong" 19:07:27 <Eddi|zuHause3> everything else is free 19:08:12 <Zr40> Eddi|zuHause3: what is wrong about that? 19:08:27 <Eddi|zuHause3> they are reversed... 19:08:36 <Zr40> so would a left-hand user say 19:08:52 <Eddi|zuHause3> it's about permutations of 3 objects 19:09:13 <Eddi|zuHause3> you have permutations with signature 1 and permutations with signature -1 19:09:39 <Eddi|zuHause3> each permutation with signature 1 is invariant wrt left or right hand 19:09:49 <Eddi|zuHause3> permutations with signature -1 switch sides 19:10:14 <Eddi|zuHause3> and in "common" mathmatics, the right hand side was chosen 19:10:22 <Zr40> I've lost you there. 19:10:39 <Eddi|zuHause3> (refer to "mathmatical positive" and "mathmatical negative" direction) 19:11:45 <Eddi|zuHause3> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Even_and_odd_permutations 19:11:55 <Zr40> I agree using the same system is good, but using the right-hand system doesn't make the left-hand system bad 19:12:31 <Eddi|zuHause3> it's completely dual, so you just choose a side, and stick with it 19:13:09 <Zr40> yes, but assume no side has been chosen at all 19:13:15 <Eddi|zuHause3> "good" and "bad", "true" and "false", "left" and "right"... it's all the same 19:13:30 <Zr40> you started with "wrong" :) 19:13:34 <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, the "right" side has been chosen 19:13:48 <Eddi|zuHause3> it's been like that for several hundred years 19:13:53 <Eddi|zuHause3> just believe me :) 19:14:04 <Zr40> I don't question that :) 19:14:15 <Eddi|zuHause3> you do :) 19:14:36 <Zr40> no, I question the left-hand coordinate system being wrong by itself 19:15:19 <Zr40> just like driving on the right or left side of the road 19:15:33 <Zr40> they're incompatible, but either way is valid 19:16:09 <Eddi|zuHause3> it is "valid", it is just not "standard", and by "right"=="standard", "left"=="wrong" 19:16:20 <Zr40> go say that in Britain :) 19:20:10 <Luukland> 0_o 19:20:21 <Eddi|zuHause3> i have been saying that in britain, but they were apparently not listening :p 19:20:44 <Luukland> >_< 19:21:14 <Biff> exciting race 19:23:22 <Eddi|zuHause3> anyway, nothing in there is "reverse"... what is reverse are the screen coordinates 19:24:02 <Eddi|zuHause3> btw. one left hand coordinate system is used in physics, because the + and - poles are reversed 19:24:11 <Eddi|zuHause3> current flows from - to + 19:24:33 *** skidd13 [~skidd13@p548A7445.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 19:25:16 <Eddi|zuHause3> so the resulting electromagnetic field is described by the left hand 19:26:27 <Luukland> This is really a stupido discussion.... 19:27:26 <Eddi|zuHause3> he started it :) 19:27:42 <Luukland> :P 19:30:50 *** TinoM [~Tino@i5387CCE5.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 19:43:38 *** Luukland [~Luukland@s559031d6.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Quit: Ik wacht, en ik wacht, al sinds februari wacht ik. Ik vraag mijn zelf af: hoelang moet ik nog wachten, want er lijkt geen einde aan te komen...] 19:47:05 *** skidd13 [~skidd13@p548A7445.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #openttd [] 19:54:52 <Bjarni> "maybe it is a bug but don't get me wrong, maybe it is the coding problem". So it it is incorrect code, it's not a bug? 19:55:05 *** Zr40 [~Zr40@zr40.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:55:15 <hylje> :o 19:55:17 <hylje> feature? 19:55:20 <Eddi|zuHause3> no, it's a feature 19:55:22 <hylje> incorrectly implemented feature! 19:59:33 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10082 /trunk/src/network/network_data.cpp: -Fix [FS#846]: another memory leak in the networking code (benc). 19:59:47 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10083 /branches/0.5/elrail.c: [0.5] -Fix [FS#836]: "Deactivate Electrified Railways" didn't work. 19:59:48 *** Frostregen [~sucks@dslb-084-058-151-233.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:00:03 *** Frostregen [SADDAM@dslb-084-058-115-011.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 20:08:40 *** Zr40 [~Zr40@zr40.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 20:09:29 *** remus [numers@c-3516e155.528-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #openttd 20:11:09 <Zr40> so... any hint on FS#104? :) 20:12:55 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@dD5E03DCF.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 20:13:46 *** Purno [~Purno@5357D37C.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Quit: Life is a game of pick-up-sticks, played by fucking lunatics.] 20:20:34 <blathijs> OMG, it's complete weather chaos out here 20:20:57 <blathijs> Streaming rain, multiple lightning flashes per second... 20:21:18 <hylje> :o 20:21:22 <hylje> i wish i had that 20:21:55 <Wolf01> here too 20:22:29 <Wolf01> but less rain 20:22:32 <Wolf01> :P 20:25:02 *** Zr40 [~Zr40@zr40.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:25:29 <Eddi|zuHause3> here it is completely calm 20:25:55 <Wolf01> here no more rain, a little windy, some thunders now 20:26:24 <Eddi|zuHause3> the day was really hot and sunny 20:27:40 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10084 /trunk/src/economy.cpp: -Fix [FS#855]: reversing a train when loading at a station crashed. 20:28:12 <peter1138> heh 20:28:18 <Wolf01> here was muggy weather today, sun but unbreathable air #_# 20:30:24 <hylje> fixed again! 20:31:02 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@dD5E03DCF.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 20:32:12 *** HMage` [Queneex@89-178-121-124.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:34:41 *** HMage [HMage@89-178-132-61.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 20:49:23 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10085 /trunk/src/main_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#839]: message that you had given money appeared even when an error occured. 20:49:57 <blathijs> http://nana.student.utwente.nl/~matthijs/Onweer/ <-- pictures and movies of our weather :-) 20:50:03 <Bjarni> <blathijs> Streaming rain, multiple lightning flashes per second... <-- and you didn't disconnect your computer... either you have an UPS or you are living dangerously 20:50:15 <blathijs> I'm working on a laptop 20:50:45 <Bjarni> that would fit the UPS theory if it's on battery and using a wireless connection 20:52:01 <Bjarni> hmm, according to this map, the lightning is in an area from Enschede to Apeldoorn and then down to Venray 20:52:16 <Bjarni> and some of it is in Germany 20:52:28 <Bjarni> that tells us something about your location 20:52:30 <blathijs> I'm in Enschede :-) 20:52:47 <Eddi|zuHause3> there were bad thunderstorms in south-western germany yesterday 20:53:03 <Eddi|zuHause3> fortunately that is very far away from here :) 20:53:52 <Bjarni> south western Germany has thunder right now 20:54:13 <Bjarni> not as bad as the German/Dutch border though 20:55:17 <Eddi|zuHause3> there are practically no clouds over here 20:55:56 <Eddi|zuHause3> [22:36] <hitmansascha> Gewitter erinnert mich immer an den Vorteil von Kabelfernsehn 20:56:25 <Eddi|zuHause3> obviously that guy is affected :) 20:56:31 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause3: well, you are like 150 km from the nearest lightning and like 250 km from serious weather 20:58:03 <Bjarni> I take that back... now the closest is a bit south of Erfurt 20:58:16 <Bjarni> live updating is nice :) 20:58:18 <setrodox> earlier today there was thunder here(austria) that loud that the door here start shaking from it 20:58:46 <Bjarni> wow 20:59:06 <Eddi|zuHause3> erfurt is still over 50km away 20:59:11 <Bjarni> I know 20:59:16 <Bjarni> but it's not 150 km anymore 21:00:04 <Bjarni> I would be a moron not to figure out the distance between Erfurt and Halle when I'm looking at a map with both towns on it xD 21:00:52 <Eddi|zuHause3> depends if the map gives a scale :) 21:02:50 <Bjarni> it does 21:03:52 <Bjarni> actually according to this map, the distance is 86 km 21:04:14 <Eddi|zuHause3> which is well over 50km :) 21:04:31 <kaan> night all :) 21:04:33 *** kaan [~Klaus@82.192.152.195] has left #openttd [] 21:04:46 <Eddi|zuHause3> i wanted to say 100km first, but thought it was less than that 21:04:54 <Bjarni> and 33 to Leipzig 21:05:31 <Eddi|zuHause3> is that center to center? i thought that was more like 40km 21:06:01 <Eddi|zuHause3> at least they do a marathon run between both cities 21:10:18 <Eddi|zuHause3> google maps tells me 38km 21:10:41 <Eddi|zuHause3> although that is not air-distance 21:12:35 *** Jezral is now known as TinoDidriksen 21:12:51 <Bjarni> I can't follow roads on this map :) 21:14:14 <Wolf01> 'night 21:14:22 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host202-235-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 21:15:30 <Eddi|zuHause3> halle-erfurt is 100km by road, and 150km by autobahn 21:16:20 <Biff> <3 autobahn <3 21:18:27 <Bjarni> why? 21:18:39 <Bjarni> you like traffic jams and reckless driving? 21:19:01 <Biff> no, i dont like traffic jams :) 21:19:13 <Biff> whats your definition of reckless driving? 21:19:27 <Eddi|zuHause3> traffic jams reduced since they finished the 3rd lane on the most occupied routes 21:20:30 <Bjarni> reckless driving is when you drive so fast that you can't be sure to stop before an unforeseen obstacle, like traffic jams 21:20:31 <Eddi|zuHause3> the autobahn here was a constant construction site for 15 years 21:21:05 <Biff> Bjarni: i agree 21:21:12 <Bjarni> people really do that 21:21:13 <Biff> but thats pretty fast 21:21:17 <Eddi|zuHause3> you see most obstacles way in advance 21:21:33 <Biff> atleast the part of autobahn i drove on 21:21:35 <Eddi|zuHause3> it's not like there is a sudden 90° curve or something :p 21:22:05 <Biff> hehe 21:22:15 <Bjarni> not if the road is a bit wet, then you can't be sure to brake safely at the usual distance 21:22:32 <Eddi|zuHause3> the worst situation is when you drive 160+ on the left lane, and there switches a car from the middle/right lane into your lane, going 120 21:22:37 <Biff> well, if its wet you should obviously take that into consideration 21:22:42 *** sPooT [~spoot@e156067.upc-e.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:22:47 <Bjarni> unforeseen obstacles can also be other slow driving cars that makes sudden lane changes right in front of you 21:22:50 <Biff> Eddi|zuHause3: that happened a lot when i were there 21:23:26 <Biff> but you often see in advance who will switch out into your lane without watching their mirror.. that happens often here in norway 21:23:33 <Eddi|zuHause3> i had that happen to me, too, fortunately there was another lane left of me, and it was free 21:23:45 * Bjarni considers 160 reckless nomatter the conditions 21:23:47 <Biff> just a few cars are equipped with mirrors 21:23:51 <Eddi|zuHause3> the guy was practically "surprise switching" 21:24:00 <Biff> Bjarni: even with a empty road? 21:24:12 <Bjarni> you can't be sure that it's empty forever 21:24:19 <Biff> you can see ahead 21:26:24 <Bjarni> also the wheels tend to lose their grip on the road at high speed 21:27:04 *** setrodox [setrodox@83-65-235-200.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Quit: Hapiness ;D] 21:27:07 <Bjarni> not to mention if you hit a small hole or such while braking. The car will stop braking on the wheel in the hole and due to that: turn 21:27:08 <Biff> yes, there are no tires which are made for those kind of speeds 21:27:17 <Eddi|zuHause3> you can be certain that wheels designed for 200km/h also have grip at 200km/h (assuming dry road) 21:27:24 <Bjarni> a car that turns itself at that speed isn't nice to be in 21:27:34 <Biff> Bjarni: yes, we dont have things like esp, abs etc 21:27:53 <Bjarni> abs will not help in that case 21:28:08 <Eddi|zuHause3> <Biff> just a few cars are equipped with mirrors <- i can't see that happening in germany 21:28:12 <Bjarni> it would help if it cut braking on the wheel in the other side of the car though 21:28:16 *** Osai is now known as Osai^zZz 21:28:29 <Biff> Eddi|zuHause3: that wasnt entierly true, but it seems to be like that :P 21:28:42 <Eddi|zuHause3> :p 21:28:43 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: maedhros * r10086 /trunk/src/rail_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Use more sensible types and functions in GenericPlaceSignals. 21:28:55 <Biff> if one wheel locks up a car with abs will normally not weer to the side 21:29:24 <Bjarni> abs will prevent the wheel from blocking, but if the problem is that it's in mid air (for a short while, but we are talking high speed), the anti block system will not prevent the lack of braking 21:29:51 <Eddi|zuHause3> that's why they invented esp 21:30:21 <Eddi|zuHause3> it distributes the braking power unevenly over the wheels, to prevent sliding etc. 21:31:25 <Biff> not to mention that people each day drive the autobahn to check the surface 21:33:02 <Bjarni> whatever you say, I still think it's reckless to drive more than say 100-120 in a car 21:33:35 <Biff> i disagree, and i cant see that you have proven that for all situations 21:34:36 <Eddi|zuHause3> really, the autobahn is built in a way that those "unforseen" situations rarely occure... except for the sudden lane changing, you can't do much about that... 21:34:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10087 /trunk/src/ (callback_table.cpp main_gui.cpp): -Fix [FS#834]: multiple subsequent "give money" actions could result in duplicate messages that money has been transfered when it only happened once. 21:35:08 <Eddi|zuHause3> and driving 160 is really not that difficult... 21:37:07 <Bjarni> well, accidents happens and the energy in the movement is v^2, so increased speed will really increase the energy involved in a crash 21:37:52 <Bjarni> so say esp avoids half of the accidents (I don't think so), then we would still have the other half of the accidents and they are all serious due to the high speed 21:38:24 <Eddi|zuHause3> actually, it is more like (v1-v2)^2 21:39:22 <Bjarni> so if everybody drives 200 km/h, then v1 and v2 would be equal and accidents wouldn't be serious? 21:39:32 <Eddi|zuHause3> and by far more accidents happen in city traffic (stop&go etc.) than on the autobahn 21:39:44 <Bjarni> signs, trees and so on all give a v2 = 0 21:39:59 <Rubidium> Bjarni: and people that drive the wrong way? 21:41:04 <Bjarni> like a week ago some drunk guy drove the wrong way here... or actually near kaan and had a headon collision and killed all 4 people in the car he hit 21:41:50 <Eddi|zuHause3> and that's clearly the fault of the speed, and not of the alcohol, right? 21:42:03 <Bjarni> well 21:42:09 *** Nickman [~nick_defr@d54C1C327.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 600 seconds] 21:42:16 <Bjarni> they might have survived if they didn't go 100+ both of them 21:42:46 <Eddi|zuHause3> sure, and you also believe you have no accidents if you don't leave your house 21:43:22 <Eddi|zuHause3> and yellow cars are less likely to be involved in an accident than red ones 21:43:35 *** Nickman [~nick_defr@d54C1C327.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 21:43:37 <Bjarni> actually it's the other way around 21:43:57 <Bjarni> red is least likely to be in an accident while black is the most dangerous colour 21:44:00 <Eddi|zuHause3> (which is true, but only because there are far less yellow cars than red cars) 21:44:07 <peter1138> statistics :D 21:44:44 <Bjarni> black cars are more likely to be overlooked because they blend into the background more easily 21:45:03 <Bjarni> but... 21:45:04 <peter1138> yeah, that's why tanks are black 21:45:11 <peter1138> err 21:45:24 *** bencvt [~bencvt@va-71-53-204-176.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #openttd 21:45:30 <Eddi|zuHause3> actually, i was in an accident a while ago, i was in a red car, and the other one in a white car (it was kind of foggy that day) 21:45:44 <Eddi|zuHause3> i was going 20km/h over a road crossing 21:46:08 <Biff> so, did you see the crash in f1 today? 21:46:18 <Bjarni> tanks are designed to be at a specific background. Cars aren't designed to blend with a specific background, so black gives the best hiding abilities on multiple backgrounds 21:46:24 <Eddi|zuHause3> Biff: you mean the video that was linked here earlier? 21:46:28 <ln-> 21:10 < ln-> http://amd.co.at/anti/kubica.avi 21:46:30 <ln-> 21:15 < Eddi|zuHause3> ln-: looks evil ;) 21:46:42 <Biff> well, i saw it on the tv 21:46:52 <peter1138> Biff: clearly it wasn't bjarni driving it 21:47:15 <Biff> hehe 21:47:28 <Biff> that was a bad crash, i was sure he was dead 21:48:18 <Bjarni> see 21:48:23 <Eddi|zuHause3> actually, the safety measurements in f1 are really good, you rarely hear of dead people in f1 21:48:31 <Bjarni> the road was clear, but he was driving too fast to keep on the road 21:49:39 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause3: well, it looks like 20 km/h was too much for the visibility that day 21:50:29 <peter1138> sleepy time 21:51:11 <Eddi|zuHause3> i don't think the (minimal) fog was actually the main reason for the crash, but don't go there :) 21:52:23 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@212.24.150.226] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:52:32 <peter1138> i guess bjarni is one of those annoying people who drives at 75 km/h on the motorways 21:53:18 *** moe [~Maui_key@p5498E216.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 600 seconds] 21:53:47 *** lolman [~lolman@cpc3-leds2-0-0-cust55.leed.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:55:28 <Eddi|zuHause3> we have a lot of (usually older) people here in the villages that only have a tractor driving license, they are allowed to drive normal cars, but only if they are limited to 25km/h 21:55:51 *** moe [~Maui_key@p5498DB23.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 21:56:35 <Eddi|zuHause3> i always get such a person driving in front of me on the major roads, with no opportunity to overtake... 21:57:02 <ln-> what a funny rule. 21:57:31 <Maedhros> good night 21:57:36 *** Maedhros [~jc@host86-137-64-30.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:58:02 <Eddi|zuHause3> i have the opinion that those cars need to have a yellow flashlight on top of them... 21:58:24 <ln-> are they allowed to go to autobahns? 21:58:29 <Eddi|zuHause3> because you can hardly determine that the car is not going 100km/h from distance 21:58:50 <Eddi|zuHause3> no, on the autobahn you cannot enter if your car is not able to go over 60km/h 21:59:14 <ln-> but the car is able, only the driver is not. :) 21:59:30 <Eddi|zuHause3> no, the car is not able also, it has an artificial limitation 21:59:44 <ln-> d'ogh 22:00:09 <Eddi|zuHause3> well, usually with that limitation it's still possible to go 40-50km/h 22:00:35 <ln-> how many gears do they have? 22:00:57 <Eddi|zuHause3> but it's not actually the physical limitation that counts, it's the limitation written in the car 22:01:01 <Eddi|zuHause3> 's papers 22:01:18 <Eddi|zuHause3> i don't know, i have never seen one from the inside 22:09:53 *** Nickman [~nick_defr@d54C1C327.access.telenet.be] has left #openttd [] 22:10:31 <XeryusTC> !stats 22:10:32 <_42_> XeryusTC: http://devs.openttd.org/~truelight/stats/openttd.html 22:10:34 <ln-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_Unicorn 22:11:59 *** ProfFrink [~proffrink@82-43-58-81.cable.ubr04.croy.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #openttd 22:12:04 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@82-43-58-81.cable.ubr04.croy.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:12:10 *** ProfFrink is now known as Prof_Frink 22:13:24 *** Smoovious [~smoovious@c-71-205-140-67.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 600 seconds] 22:18:54 *** thgergo [~th_gergo@dsl51B789A3.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [] 22:23:48 *** Ailure [Gamefreak@194.47.44.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 600 seconds] 22:26:35 *** HMage [HMage@89-178-132-61.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: HMage] 22:26:39 <Bjarni> <peter1138> i guess bjarni is one of those annoying people who drives at 75 km/h on the motorways <-- actually that would be dangerous to drive so much slower than the other cars 22:27:42 *** G [~nigel@202.154.148.243] has joined #openttd 22:30:57 *** HMage [Queneex@89-178-106-167.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 22:31:59 *** G_ [~nigel@202.154.148.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 600 seconds] 22:41:18 *** XeryusTC [~irc@cc480157-b.sneek1.fr.home.nl] has quit [Quit: Solong, and thanks for all the fish.] 23:13:08 <Eddi|zuHause3> Bjarni: see, (v1-v2) DOES matter :) 23:27:58 <Bjarni> actually it was more like if the cars drives equally fast, then they will never reach each other. If they drive somewhat close to each other (in speed), then they will close in slowly and leave time for avoidance 23:29:08 <Eddi|zuHause3> see, there is not much difference if the cars drive 105 and 100 or 165 and 160 23:30:07 <Eddi|zuHause3> this works great, as long nobody driving 120 suddenly switches lanes 23:32:03 <Bjarni> driving is perfectly safe if you take for granted that nobody will ever do anything stupid 23:33:42 <Eddi|zuHause3> as is flying, or internet surfing, or playing skat 23:35:22 <Bjarni> skat? 23:35:39 <Eddi|zuHause3> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skat_(card_game) 23:35:58 <Bjarni> however I have never heard that anybody has died due to somebody else gaining too high speed on the internet 23:36:46 <Eddi|zuHause3> no, but clicking on email attachments and getting their bank accounts cleared out 23:38:00 <Bjarni> are you saying that speed doesn't matter for traffic safety? 23:38:34 <Eddi|zuHause3> no, i'm saying it's not an argument 23:38:43 *** pro [~http@80-240-220-232.dnat.migtel.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 600 seconds] 23:39:19 <Bjarni> so traffic safety doesn't matter or ? 23:39:25 <Eddi|zuHause3> at least not as unconditional as you are trying to put it 23:40:08 <Eddi|zuHause3> of course traffic safety matters, but just because an accident "may happen" is not a valid reason to not do something 23:40:35 <Eddi|zuHause3> if you never leave your house, the plane can still crash right onto it 23:40:38 <Bjarni> so you aren't using your seatbelt 23:40:52 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r10088 /trunk/src/ (industry.h newgrf.cpp): -Codechange: A typo and a code-style 23:40:56 <Eddi|zuHause3> you're getting stupid 23:40:59 <Bjarni> because it's due to "it might happen" 23:41:31 <Bjarni> I'm trying to follow your logics 23:41:37 <Eddi|zuHause3> it is forbidden to drive without 23:41:55 <Eddi|zuHause3> but it is not forbidden to drive 160km/h 23:42:29 <Bjarni> it is here 23:43:10 <Bjarni> if the police catches somebody driving 160, then the driver will have to pass a new driving test nomatter the conditions 23:44:36 <Eddi|zuHause3> that's another point why this discussion is getting nowhere, we're basing it on different preconditions 23:44:45 <Bjarni> it's a fact that whenever the speed increases, the number of accidents will increase and the severity of the accidents increases as well 23:44:58 <Bjarni> anyway I need to sleep 23:45:45 <Bjarni> damn, I have to get up in... way to few hours :( 23:46:18 <Bjarni> I guess I will have to do with around 5 hours of sleep.... that's not the right way to start a week >_< 23:46:24 *** Bjarni [~Bjarni@0x50c79adc.virnxx14.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving]