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00:06:42 *** Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:07:28 *** birdspider [~birdspide@chello062178009208.4.11.tuwien.teleweb.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:10:50 <ArmEagle> Is the location of the savegames, screenshots, etc directory hardcoded in the client? 00:11:13 <Yexo> no, they are saved in the directory where openttd finds openttd.cfg 00:11:25 *** Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #openttd 00:11:44 <ArmEagle> ah, it will check the gamedir first. then 'myDocuments'? 00:11:53 <Yexo> I think so 00:11:59 <ArmEagle> ok, thanks 00:12:01 <Yexo> not sure of the order in which they are checked 00:12:12 <Yexo> iirc gamedir is indeed first 00:12:18 <ArmEagle> seems logical :) 00:14:26 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@snat1.spoje.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:14:44 *** Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has left #openttd [] 00:15:16 *** Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #openttd 00:21:26 <glx> it's all explained in the readme 00:22:23 <glx> section 4.2 00:24:47 <ArmEagle> hmm, indeed 00:25:48 <glx> the part about save dir and openttd.cfg is important 00:26:25 <glx> (4th note) 00:26:49 *** GoneWacko [GoneWacko@86-60-147-155-dyn-dsl.ssp.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:32:10 *** Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:34:18 *** Eddi|zuHause3 [~johekr@p54B7711D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 00:40:42 *** Eddi|zuHause2 [~johekr@p54B75539.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:52:12 *** grumbel [~grumbel@i577BA28B.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Client exiting] 00:54:06 *** lolman [~lolman@adsl-87-102-119-5.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:54:21 *** Sacro [~Sacro@adsl-87-102-119-5.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:54:30 *** selle [~s@g221.ip7.netikka.fi] has joined #openttd 00:54:30 *** d-st [~s@g221.ip7.netikka.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:55:46 *** lolman [~lolman@adsl-87-102-119-5.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd 00:55:54 *** Sacro [~Sacro@adsl-87-102-119-5.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd 00:58:22 *** Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #openttd 01:03:29 <ArmEagle> hmm, now the forums really seem to be down :) 01:09:04 *** KritiK [~Maxim@93-80-37-211.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:11:27 *** nekx [~asd@0x3e42e6e6.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:18:17 *** fmauNeko is now known as fmauNekAway 01:21:16 * Belugas_Gone wonders if a playme.mp3 would have more chances to be examined than a readme.txt 01:22:05 <glx> hehe 01:23:10 <Belugas_Gone> :) 01:23:16 <Belugas_Gone> hello glx 01:34:13 *** glx [glx@bny93-6-82-245-156-124.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 01:40:50 *** Gekz_ [~brendan@202.43.236.126] has joined #openttd 01:42:39 *** Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:46:18 *** Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #openttd 01:48:21 <DaleStan> Belugas_Gone: Define it as the default first soundtrack. 01:48:59 *** Gekz_ [~brendan@202.43.236.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:49:51 <Belugas_Gone> :) 01:51:07 *** Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:51:15 *** Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #openttd 01:53:38 <Belugas_Gone> going to bed. will be out for 3 days. see you and enjoy the night 01:53:38 *** Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has left #openttd [] 01:54:13 *** Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #openttd 01:54:35 *** Zahl [~Zahl@f051074179.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: (~_~]"] 02:38:14 *** Wezz6400 [~Wezz6400@145-118-111-36.fttx.bbned.nl] has quit [Quit: Yeah yeah, I'm finally going to sleep, now shut up, mom!] 02:53:33 *** fly_wolfcn [~root@114.231.245.34] has joined #openttd 02:54:07 *** fly_wolfcn [~root@114.231.245.34] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:19:40 *** Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:22:59 *** Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #openttd 03:44:50 *** dlunch [~dlunch@61.108.29.49] has joined #openttd 03:47:43 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has quit [Quit: Night All.] 04:29:46 *** ice2 [d0b239f2@67.207.141.120] has joined #openttd 04:30:01 *** michael_ [~linuser@p57B2E9DE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:43:23 *** ice2 [d0b239f2@67.207.141.120] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 05:13:16 *** Debolaz [~root@nat.andersberle.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:28:30 *** Ridayah_ [~ridayah@12-208-15-67.client.mchsi.com] has joined #openttd 05:30:04 *** Ridayah 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closed the connection] 06:37:29 *** mikl [~mikl@0304ds2-ba.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 07:02:42 *** GoneWacko [~gonewacko@adsl-58.35.Static.ssp.fi] has joined #openttd 07:09:30 *** Gekz [~brendan@58.170.6.135] has joined #openttd 07:16:56 <Celestar> heyo 07:17:26 <Forked> mornin 07:49:37 *** elmex [~elmex@e180064025.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd 07:54:44 *** Gekz [~brendan@58.170.6.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:58:55 *** Brianetta [~brian@client-86-26-82-230.nrth.adsl.virgin.net] has joined #openttd 08:01:18 *** nekx [~asd@0x3e42e6e6.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #openttd 08:02:03 <planetmaker> morning 08:05:21 <Noldo> morning 08:06:10 *** mikl [~mikl@cpe.ge-0-2-0-812.0x50c774be.boanqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #openttd 08:11:12 *** Wezz6400 [~Wezz6400@145-118-111-36.fttx.bbned.nl] has joined #openttd 08:12:33 *** Sir-Bob [~chatzilla@c122-107-227-146.eburwd5.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0/2008052906]] 08:25:59 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@snat1.spoje.net] has joined #openttd 08:33:13 *** fmauNekAway is now known as fmauNeko 08:35:46 <fmauNeko> plop 08:41:38 *** Sir-Bob [~chatzilla@c122-107-227-146.eburwd5.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 08:53:14 <Brianetta> BTW, all: Brianetta's Standard Server is now, once again, a going concern 08:56:15 *** Doorslammer|BRSet [Doorslamme@PIPP-p-203-54-229-34.prem.tmns.net.au] has joined #openttd 08:57:28 <peter1138> Cool 09:00:40 *** Wezz6400 [~Wezz6400@145-118-111-36.fttx.bbned.nl] has quit [Quit: Caught sigterm, terminating...] 09:01:47 *** Wezz6400 [~Wezz6400@145-118-111-36.fttx.bbned.nl] has joined #openttd 09:18:22 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has joined #openttd 09:19:47 *** Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #openttd 09:21:25 *** grumbel [~grumbel@i577B941B.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 09:40:50 *** TiberiusTeng [~Tiberius@sbt.idv.tw] has joined #openttd 09:45:44 *** Rich 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[~chatzilla@c122-107-227-146.eburwd5.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.1/2008070208]] 10:50:43 *** MorgyN [~mig@water.morgyn.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:55:36 *** Yorick [~yorick@s55924da0.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd 10:56:01 <Yorick> meh, I could even set up a new company as spectator by executing CMD_PLAYER_CTRL when I am ingame...right? 10:57:00 * Yorick smells functionality in the shape of a 'play on this server' button 11:03:47 <Noldo> what? 11:04:36 *** einKarl [~einKarl@91-65-196-232-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #openttd 11:05:02 <Vikthor> Yorick: That's very good idea 11:06:02 *** curson [~curzon@79-69-4-108.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Quit: If everything seems to be going well, you have obviously overlooked something.] 11:06:12 <Vikthor> This would save lot of bandwith, especially on bigger maps, when somebody comes to server to take a look and decides to play 11:07:45 <Yorick> Noldo: when a client wants a new company on joining, he sends a CMD_PLAYER_CTRL 11:08:05 <Yorick> it creates a new company and put a client in there 11:08:42 <Yorick> I figured the current way does work when you're already connected 11:08:51 <blathijs> Yorick: It might require some changes to the code, since there might be things that won't expect spectators to turn into players all of the sudden 11:09:08 <blathijs> Yorick: But in general, reusing an existing command would be an elegant way I guess 11:09:50 <Yorick> it works better than I would expect, because the spetatirs do now turn into players all of the sudden 11:10:27 <Yorick> NetworkUpdateClientInfo(ci->client_index); :) 11:12:56 <Noldo> Yorick: do you have a patch ready? 11:13:06 <Yorick> Noldo: not yet... 11:13:32 <Noldo> whaaat? why? 11:14:08 <Yorick> because I just noticed it when investigating the code for my "Player"-can'tplay patch 11:18:58 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1E40E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 11:19:43 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r13712 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Fix: enforce the length restrictions of company and president name in the commands too. 11:28:12 <Celestar> timidity needs more CPU cycles than a 200-train game with Yapp 11:28:59 <Yorick> heh 11:29:10 <Celestar> and I dunno how to use libtimidity 11:30:02 <Rubidium> the only correct usage of (lib)timidity is no usage 11:30:23 <Celestar> Rubidium: suggestions on how to get music playback then? :P 11:30:35 <Celestar> hm I could convert the mids to mp3s :P 11:31:35 <Yorick> hmm, openttd fails to build static since 0.6.2-RC1 here 11:32:49 <Rubidium> what OS? 11:33:27 <Yorick> windows/mingw 11:34:24 <Yorick> it goes requireing zlib1.dll and freetype6.dll 11:34:35 <Rubidium> I can't see a change since 0.6.1 that'd've caused that 11:35:12 <Yorick> probably I've just cped too much without clearing the config.cache stuff 11:36:14 <dih> ... 11:36:40 <Yorick> I said _here_ ;) 11:37:21 <dih> hehe 11:38:24 <Rexxie> is there a windows mobile port of OTTD? 11:39:21 <Rubidium> if you mean ancient, then yes there is something 11:39:23 *** HenkeSwe [~henke@62.116.228.62] has joined #openttd 11:39:25 <Rubidium> but it is not official 11:39:28 *** Klanticus [~Klanticus@201-43-142-122.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #openttd 11:39:33 <Rubidium> i.e. bugreports don't belong here 11:39:38 <HenkeSwe> HEllo guys 11:39:54 <Rexxie> lol, I didnt know if there was a port, you dont have to worry about bug reports ^^ 11:39:56 <HenkeSwe> Uhm, I'm wondering where I can find good graphics for the game 11:40:53 <Rubidium> imo the best graphics are on your TTD CD ;) 11:41:25 <HenkeSwe> no 11:41:26 <HenkeSwe> well 11:41:30 <HenkeSwe> I've got that 11:41:44 <HenkeSwe> But i've been looking at some screenshots and 11:41:52 <HenkeSwe> Some stations look 11:41:56 <HenkeSwe> awesome 11:42:19 *** selle [~s@g221.ip7.netikka.fi] has quit [Quit: brownies] 11:42:41 <HenkeSwe> http://www.openttd.org/screens.php?image=images/screens/0.5.0/suntfingford 11:42:48 <HenkeSwe> The stations are "in" the industries 11:42:57 <HenkeSwe> I played the game about a year ago 11:43:07 <HenkeSwe> So I don't know if that is standard now or something 11:43:30 <Rubidium> not really, but search the manual (on the wiki) for newgrf 11:43:52 <HenkeSwe> OK, I guess I can find how to make the game swedish in ther also =) 11:44:12 <Rubidium> yup 11:44:43 *** selle [~s@g221.ip7.netikka.fi] has joined #openttd 11:45:05 <HenkeSwe> Ow man 11:45:11 <HenkeSwe> you really should make a huge pack for this =) 11:45:16 <HenkeSwe> Cant wait to start a new game =) 11:45:18 <dih> grfcrawler.tt-forums.net? 11:45:36 <Ammler> :-) 11:45:42 <dih> hehe 11:45:49 <HenkeSwe> Is there any tips you guys have, what things to install and generic stuff before I start a new game= 11:45:53 <dih> i was thinking of it Ammler :-P 11:46:03 <Ammler> :-D 11:46:05 <dih> ttrs urks pbi 11:46:34 *** tokai [~tokai@p54B8091A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:46:39 <Ammler> japanset 11:46:47 <Rubidium> not ecs ;) 11:46:57 <Yorick> openttdcoop.org/wiki/grf? 11:47:19 <Ammler> Yorick: that isn't a tip, which grfs to use 11:47:38 <Yorick> he asks what things to install, I think 11:47:39 <Ammler> it will result with "how can I include all 140 GRFs at once :P 11:47:43 *** tokai [~tokai@p54B80582.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 11:47:44 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 11:48:10 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r13713 /trunk/src/network/ (core/config.h network_udp.cpp): -Fix: possible crash on creating a network packet. 11:48:18 <Ammler> the GRFPack should only recommand to server admins... 11:48:37 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@p54B80582.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 11:48:43 <planetmaker> [13:48] <Ammler> the GRFPack should only recommand to server admins... <- ain't that a bit strict? 11:49:01 <Yorick> when I heard about that grfpack, I tried to nclude all 140 grfs at once, yes :) 11:49:15 <planetmaker> As lazy as I am, I wouldn't know 20% of them w/o the pack... 11:49:17 <Ammler> well, there are also server admins, which aren't able to use it, indeed. :-P 11:50:29 <dih> as of r13713 OpenTTDLib will fail 11:50:38 <dih> :-P 11:50:40 <Yorick> dih: why? 11:50:51 <dih> @openttd commit 13713 11:50:52 <planetmaker> :S 11:50:57 <dih> gnah 11:50:57 <DorpsGek> dih: Commit by rubidium :: r13713 /trunk/src/network (core/config.h network_udp.cpp) (2008-07-17 11:47:57 UTC) 11:50:59 <DorpsGek> dih: -Fix: possible crash on creating a network packet. 11:51:00 <dih> there we go 11:51:11 <dih> sorry for the highlight R. 11:51:12 <planetmaker> let's hope the maintainer of OpenTTDLib is quick with catching up :P 11:51:20 <dih> hehe 11:51:27 * dih hides 11:51:27 <Yorick> NETWORK_COMPANY_INFO_VERSION = 5, ///< What version of company info is this? ARGH 11:52:16 <Yorick> dih: lets get tcp support into openttdlib then :) 11:52:26 <dih> 'lets' ? 11:52:38 <dih> that implies you and I 11:52:46 <dih> and that would be a 'no' 11:52:46 <dih> ;-) 11:52:48 <Noldo> maybe others to 11:52:50 <Noldo> o 11:53:16 <Yorick> rubidium: how do you mean, possible crash...with the current client limit, it should not be crashing 11:53:37 <Noldo> now you are on to something aren't you 11:53:59 <Yorick> he basically committed the udpfix 11:54:14 <Rubidium> Yorick: really? 11:54:17 <Yorick> no 11:54:39 <Yorick> hmm, yes 11:54:44 <dih> Noldo: that udp packet is just able to overflow 11:54:49 <Yorick> http://hg.openttd.org:8000/openttd.hg/rev/db49ce10b3b5 11:54:53 <Rubidium> I can crash any pre 13713 server without password with only the creation of 1 company 11:54:56 <dih> as all details are squished into one packet 11:55:30 <dih> Rubidium: add a howto to the wiki 11:55:32 <dih> :-P 11:56:00 <planetmaker> wiki/OpenTTD/how-to-be-a-bad-guy.html ? 11:56:08 <Yorick> no, the sabotagers guide 11:56:16 *** bleepy [bleepy@5ad3485a.bb.sky.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:56:23 <Yorick> the sharedailing exploit is explained there 11:56:24 <Noldo> Rubidium: isn't that a nice way to get rid of not-uptodate servers 11:56:25 *** bleepy [bleepy@5ad923eb.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 11:56:52 <dih> Noldo: nice idea 11:57:00 <dih> that way you can find out which servers are not maintained 11:57:01 <dih> :-D 11:58:21 <HenkeSwe> 'hmmm 11:58:30 <HenkeSwe> Can anyone tell me where to find newstations 11:58:31 <HenkeSwe> ? 11:58:39 <HenkeSwe> Its homepage gives me 404 :( 11:59:09 *** glx [glx@bny93-6-82-245-156-124.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #openttd 11:59:11 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 11:59:11 *** sunkan [sunkan@sunkan.bsnet.se] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 12:02:27 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r13714 /trunk/src/network/ (network_client.cpp network_server.cpp): -Fix: remove the unique_id from the message that a client has joined as it is only exposes the unique_id more than needed. Patch by dih. 12:02:30 <dih> orudge: you around? 12:13:41 *** sunkan [sunkan@sunkan.bsnet.se] has joined #openttd 12:16:57 <orudge> dih: somewhat 12:19:42 *** Sacro [~Sacro@adsl-87-102-119-5.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me] 12:20:02 *** Sacro [~Sacro@adsl-87-102-119-5.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd 12:33:49 *** Sacro [~Sacro@adsl-87-102-119-5.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:33:56 *** lolman [~lolman@adsl-87-102-119-5.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:51:15 <Brianetta> Hmm, think the openttd.org DNS records should have had their TTLs shortened for today 12:53:53 <dih> why? 12:54:14 <dih> is it not working for you? 12:57:20 <Yorick> "Due to DNS changes, you may have trouble accessing the site for up to 24 hours after that, if your ISP caches the DNS records for too long." 12:58:06 *** nekx [~asd@0x3e42e6e6.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.21 :: www.esnation.com )] 13:00:34 <dih> Yorick: we do know how dns works 13:01:05 <Yorick> hmm, no servers with 0.6.2 yet 13:01:44 <dih> i need to fix OpenTTDLib tonight 13:01:54 <dih> else my autoupgrading nightly server will kill my website :-P 13:02:08 <Yorick> :D 13:02:38 <Yorick> there should be a check that stops me from creating 8 passworded companies while I'm not a spectator 13:03:09 <dih> there should be a check before you enter any channels or games :-P 13:03:24 <Yorick> CMD_PLAYER_CTRL should not accept players that are not spectator 13:05:25 *** Sacro [~Ben@adsl-87-102-119-5.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd 13:06:06 <Yorick> that allows me to click my 'start company' button 8 times ingame and flood the server 13:06:41 <Noldo> what are you waiting for then? 13:07:00 <Yorick> no servers with 0.6.2 yet 13:07:08 *** HenkeSwe [~henke@62.116.228.62] has quit [Quit: - nbs-irc 2.39 - www.nbs-irc.net -] 13:10:33 <Rubidium> Yorick: 0.6.2 servers will not come soon 13:19:34 <dih> hehe 13:20:11 <dih> Yorick: you can go around trashing servers from the list, starting from the bottom 13:20:15 <dih> :-P 13:21:02 <dih> @seen rortom 13:21:02 <DorpsGek> dih: rortom was last seen in #openttd 6 days, 16 hours, 36 minutes, and 8 seconds ago: <rortom> gn8\ 13:21:32 <Sacro> @seen Bjarni 13:21:33 <DorpsGek> Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 2 weeks, 0 days, 17 hours, 13 minutes, and 38 seconds ago: <Bjarni> I didn't have any 13:22:06 <dih> hey ho Sacro 13:23:07 <peter1138> rortom is in the ror channel on oftc 13:23:21 <peter1138> or do i mean freenode? 13:23:26 <dih> you mean freenode 13:23:38 <dih> or was it quakenet? 13:23:52 <peter1138> or do i mean quakenet? 13:24:22 <peter1138> yes, quakenet 13:25:46 <Sacro> or do you mean slashnet 13:26:52 <Yorick> no, quakenet #ror is rise of republic 13:28:11 <Yorick> #ror on freenode is ruby on rails 13:29:12 <peter1138> i said the ror channel, not #ror 13:32:09 *** Yexo [~Yexo@32-88-ftth.onsneteindhoven.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:32:09 *** Yexo_ [~Yexo@32-88-ftth.onsneteindhoven.nl] has joined #openttd 13:33:12 *** Yexo_ is now known as yexo 13:37:15 <dih> he's doing it again 13:38:02 <Yorick> what was the url? 13:38:22 <dih> bugmenot.net 13:39:22 <Yorick> ah, at least he's linking to openttdcoop.org 13:39:25 *** yexo [~Yexo@32-88-ftth.onsneteindhoven.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:39:33 *** Yexo [~Yexo@32-88-ftth.onsneteindhoven.nl] has joined #openttd 13:39:47 <Yorick> irc://blueyonder.uk.quakenet.org/openttdserver.de 13:47:55 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r13715 /trunk/src/ (51 files in 5 dirs): 13:47:57 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#2129]: C-like strings had to be rebound each time they were printed, otherwise the text could change due to the few number of slots that could be used to bind. 13:47:57 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: -Codechange: remove all BindCString and related functions and replace it by RAW_STRING which prints the C-string raw pointer that is on the 'print stack'. 13:57:35 <Celestar> hm 13:57:40 <Yorick> hmm? 13:57:43 <Celestar> I'm getting false "Train is lost" messages apparently 14:00:53 <Rubidium> I've never seen false train lost messages 14:01:01 <Celestar> neither have I 14:01:38 <Yexo> I have seen them for very long routes, but 'lost' in that case is discutable 14:01:44 <Yorick> I have never seen train is lost messages 14:02:04 <dih> they are talking about 'falst' ones... you know that 14:02:10 <Celestar> Yexo: "long" as in how long? It's about 150 tiles here from the one station to the other (with no junctions in between) 14:02:10 <Yorick> no true ones, at least 14:02:18 <Yexo> long as in 1000 tiles long :) 14:03:15 <Yexo> but iirc the message is not reset if the route is found after it couldn't found one, so if you removed one piece in the rail, vehicle did pathfinding, couldn't find path, you immediatly replace that piece of rail, vehicle can find path, you'll still get the message 14:03:37 <Celestar> Yexo: yes I'm aware of that, but this isn't the case here 14:04:15 <Rubidium> lost messages are only shown when a train didn't reach it's destination without a specific amount of days 14:05:21 <Rubidium> hmm 14:05:28 <Rubidium> that got changed once YAPF was introduces 14:05:31 <Yexo> Rubidium: not true when using yapf: if yapf can't find a path it'll return that, and the message is shown immediatly 14:06:26 <Rubidium> Yexo: it was true, until YAPF got introduces 14:07:43 <Rubidium> could be that YAPP is returning that a path is impossible or so 14:07:51 <Celestar> it is reproducibe 14:08:48 <Celestar> oh SHIT 14:09:06 <Celestar> sometimes, this drag-and-drop of orders can mess up stuff 14:10:48 *** badzero [~badzero@host-88-87-246-222.net-tv.hu] has joined #openttd 14:10:53 <Celestar> \o/ I just found the probably biggest bug in my network :P 14:11:07 <badzero> hallo darv ich hier deutsch schreiben? 14:11:28 <ln> "darv"... 14:11:40 <ln> ach so, .hu 14:12:05 <Yorick> nein, you can't, it's english only 14:12:56 <badzero> ja! also mal ein lob an die leute die das verwirklichen mit open ttd! echt cool! nur eine frage wie kann es sein wenn ich ein neus game anfange das ich keine bussbahnhof und lkw ladeplatz bauen kann? 14:13:03 <badzero> was muss ich da machen? 14:13:15 <Forked> what? 14:13:15 * Sacro slaps his head 14:13:19 <badzero> die pc gÀgner können bauen nur ich nicht wasn da los` 14:13:25 <Sacro> have i suddenly forgotten how to read ENGLISH 14:13:31 <Forked> Sacro: me too! 14:13:55 <dih> lol 14:14:00 <Sacro> badzero: auf english bitte 14:14:14 <hylje> ze english 14:14:29 <Sacro> oder ich wille der mutter gegessen 14:14:39 <dih> LOL 14:14:53 * Sacro wonders how many mistakes that sentence has 14:14:57 <dih> Sacro: you are chatting complete and utter bs 14:14:58 <ln> let google do it for you: 14:14:58 <dih> :-P 14:15:06 <ln> "yes! So get a lob to the people the reality with open ttd! really cool! only a question how can it be when I start the game neus I do not bussbahnhof and trucks ladeplatz can build?" 14:15:16 <Sacro> neus? 14:15:21 <Sacro> bussbahnof? 14:15:24 <ln> Sacro: it's english, it was on google. 14:15:25 <Sacro> ladeplatz? 14:15:33 <dih> rofl 14:15:55 <Sacro> we won the war >< 14:16:02 <dih> badzero: geh mal in #tycoon.de 14:16:11 <Sacro> you are ill? 14:16:14 <Sacro> or is that french 14:16:28 <dih> i aint no french 14:16:29 <Yorick> Sacro: that's slavic 14:16:37 * Sacro is mal a la tete 14:16:42 <dih> can nobody kick this kid 14:16:45 <Sacro> *est 14:17:09 <hylje> /kick dih done 14:17:21 * Yorick :) 14:18:05 <badzero> ich bin in #tycoon.de Sacro 14:18:15 *** GoneWacko [~gonewacko@adsl-58.35.Static.ssp.fi] has quit [] 14:18:33 <Yorick> badzero: good, now ask your question there, or ask it in english here 14:18:36 <Celestar> Sacro and other:s problem solves (= 14:18:38 <badzero> ok problem ist schon gelöst glaube ich :) 14:18:51 <badzero> dank an Celestar 14:19:09 <Yorick> peter1138: the topic needs a small update, I think 14:20:09 <Sacro> yes 14:20:14 <Sacro> "No foreigners" 14:20:26 <Yorick> "no non-english speaking" 14:22:42 <dih> c'mon - it was hillarious, one must at least admit that :-P 14:23:15 <Celestar> why do trains have a knack for congregating? :P 14:27:03 *** nfc [nfc@dsl-hkibrasgw2-fe20de00-185.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 14:30:11 <Celestar> 241 trains and counting :D 14:33:58 <peter1138> Is it slow yet? ;) 14:34:26 <Celestar> peter1138: 24% CPU usage 14:34:33 <Celestar> (playing a 2560x1024) 14:35:04 <Celestar> with 1280x1024 I'm down to 17% (and a 20% lower clockspeed) 14:35:16 <Celestar> so still, the blitter takes by far most of the CPU 14:35:35 <Celestar> what interesting, when minized, CPU load grows 14:36:25 *** mikl [~mikl@cpe.ge-0-2-0-812.0x50c774be.boanqu1.customer.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 14:37:22 <peter1138> Hmm 14:38:05 <Celestar> yapp/yapf seem not to use a lot 14:38:14 <Celestar> at least not with a measly 240 trains 14:39:09 <Celestar> zooming fully out gets this thing to about 80% 14:42:02 * Celestar wonders when the first ICE appears in DBSetXL 14:48:07 <peter1138> Quite late. 15:00:50 *** Purno [~Purno@5350931D.cable.casema.nl] has joined #openttd 15:01:14 *** fjb [~frank@p5485FDF7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 15:01:20 <fjb> Hello 15:06:46 *** Brianetta [~brian@client-86-26-82-230.nrth.adsl.virgin.net] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 15:11:01 *** ben_goodger [~ben@host217-44-86-192.range217-44.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:15:03 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r13716 /trunk/src/network/network_server.cpp: -Fix [FS#2144]: any player could construct new companies. 15:16:21 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r13717 /trunk/src/players.cpp: -Codechange: place the whole 'create new company' command in #ifdef ENABLE_NETWORK as it may only be executed when we are playing in a network game. 15:16:39 <Ammler> Celestar: around 1990 15:25:18 <Yorick> Rubidium: could you also include PLAYER_SPECTATOR in that 13716...argh...I'm stupid... 15:25:51 <dih> YES YOU ARE.... 15:25:53 <dih> :-P 15:26:01 <dih> hehe - i've been waiting for something like that :-D 15:26:34 <Yorick> :N 15:27:08 <Yorick> I knew submitting that bug was gonna cause me being unable to do that "Set up new company" button 15:34:42 *** Wolfensteijn [~Wolfenste@dhcp-077-250-018-164.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:34:54 <Eddi|zuHause3> <HenkeSwe> Can anyone tell me where to find newstations <- the website of MB is temporarily unavailable, you can probably find it in the openttdcoop grf pack though... 15:35:28 <Yorick> hmm, have the opntitle.dat grfs been fixed yet? 15:35:30 <Ammler> or at www.ttdpatch.net 15:36:00 <Ammler> here: http://www.ttdpatch.net/newgrf.html#25 15:36:15 <Eddi|zuHause3> Ammler: i thought of that, too, but i didn't know if that might just link to MB's page... and i was too lazy to check 15:37:02 <Ammler> I asked MB for new links for GRFPack 7.1 15:37:11 <Ammler> but he isn't ready... 15:37:57 <Ammler> the other GRFs from him, I loaded up to his thread at TT-Forums... 15:41:51 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590e57d1.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #openttd 15:43:03 <Ammler> has someone yapp 8.2 installed? 15:43:23 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause3: ? 15:43:25 <Rubidium> I never install OTTD 15:43:32 <Yorick> install :o 15:43:47 <Eddi|zuHause3> Ammler: no, i think i'm still with 4.something 15:43:50 <Ammler> Rubidium: because it is always there? 15:44:05 <Ammler> ah, I get you 15:44:15 <Ammler> you meant "make install" 15:44:35 <ArmEagle> I should try yapp some time.. Together with being ready for 2x2 main tracks 15:44:50 <Ammler> I am still not able to remove reserved tracks. 15:45:07 <Yorick> try bulldozer 15:45:27 <Yorick> we should get a "remove track reservation tool 15:45:29 <Yorick> " 15:45:38 <Ammler> bulldozer works 15:45:54 <Ammler> but he said, he fixed remove tool with 8.2 15:45:59 <Yorick> I've had a few crashes 15:46:01 <Ammler> should now be possible too 15:46:15 <Rubidium> maybe you don't run the 8.2 binary 15:46:32 <Rubidium> like you compiled when you were running so the binary wasn't overwritten 15:46:40 <Ammler> :-) 15:46:45 <Rubidium> so the next time you still started an old binary 15:47:10 <Ammler> I installed it twice 15:47:21 <Yorick> install :O 15:47:34 <Ammler> not installed, but compiled :P 15:47:40 <Yorick> :) 15:49:40 <Eddi|zuHause3> <Rubidium> like you compiled when you were running so the binary wasn't overwritten <- make usually complains about that here... 15:49:55 <Eddi|zuHause3> that "cp" failed, after linking 15:50:28 <Rubidium> true 15:51:27 <Yorick> but copying the lang files does not fail 15:51:44 <Yorick> means you can't run openttd after that point, until you make again 15:51:57 <Rubidium> unless nothing changed in the lang files 15:52:13 <Yorick> don't they get other ids then? 15:52:18 <Yorick> versions* 15:52:22 <Rubidium> actually, that happens only when english_uk.txt lang file changes 15:52:23 <Ammler> Rubidium: the bug is easy reproduceable 15:52:32 <Yorick> hm 15:52:49 <Ammler> but before I post in tt-forums 15:57:32 <Ammler> else yapp seems perfect now :-) 15:58:26 <SmatZ> [17:49:39] <Eddi|zuHause3> <Rubidium> like you compiled when you were running so the binary wasn't overwritten <- make usually complains about that here... <== maybe 'rm' before 'cp' would be better 15:58:57 <Rubidium> or cp -f ;) 15:59:02 <Ammler> can't reproduce on a new map, so the bug might be in the save itself. 15:59:21 <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, that'll probably only fail on windows 15:59:38 <Rubidium> on windows removing a file in use fails too 16:00:42 <SmatZ> [17:58:56] <Rubidium> or cp -f ;) <== you got me :-P 16:02:19 <SmatZ> if it won't overwrite the file ... I don't know how this works 16:02:26 <SmatZ> because if the binary file changed 16:02:49 <SmatZ> and it was read from disk, the program would crash 16:02:53 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:03:19 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has joined #openttd 16:03:34 <Eddi|zuHause3> SmatZ: on linux, the file is not physically removed while it is running 16:03:55 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause3: yeah for 'rm', but how would 'cp -f' behave? 16:04:00 <Eddi|zuHause3> just the handle from the directory is removed, and replaced by the handle to the new file 16:04:07 <SmatZ> does it remove the old file, or just overwrite it? 16:04:46 <Eddi|zuHause3> well, i doubt it's actually overwriting... but you might have to check on that 16:05:07 <Rubidium> the man says: if an existing destination file cannot be opened, remove it and try again 16:05:24 <Rubidium> makes me suspect that it removes the file 16:05:25 <Yorick> $ cp -f objs/release/openttd.exe bin/openttd.exe 16:05:27 <Yorick> cp: cannot remove `bin/openttd.exe': Permission denied 16:05:49 <SmatZ> good on one hand, but bad on the other... 16:06:05 <SmatZ> but at least cp -f would work on non-windows systems 16:06:10 <Eddi|zuHause3> Yorick: that is exactly what was to be expected 16:09:04 <SmatZ> open(cesta, O_WRONLY | O_TRUNC) <- if this fails, 'rm' is done 16:10:02 <SmatZ> so it tries to overwrite it at first 16:10:12 <SmatZ> but it is not a problem for running program 16:10:15 <SmatZ> clever solution 16:13:31 *** Doorslammer|BRSet [Doorslamme@PIPP-p-203-54-229-34.prem.tmns.net.au] has quit [] 16:14:44 <Ammler> nice YAPP ML: http://img1.myimg.de/YAPPERS17thMay22454d951.png :-P 16:15:36 <hylje> MLs done that way still become quite slow under load, no? 16:21:32 *** wolfy [~Wolfenste@dhcp-077-250-018-164.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 16:22:58 <KingJ> oooh PBS 16:23:11 *** wolfy is now known as Wolfensteijn 16:23:12 <Wolfensteijn> where? 16:23:21 <Rubidium> in TTDP? 16:23:31 <hylje> not in openttd, no!! :-) 16:23:33 <KingJ> That png just posted 16:23:59 <Eddi|zuHause3> that'll never get into openttd 16:24:18 <Eddi|zuHause3> because Rubidium has a non-optimal cornercase 16:24:23 <Wolfensteijn> the lack of PBS is one of the reasons why I haven't touched openttd (or any ttd) for a year now 16:24:31 <Eddi|zuHause3> that supercedes all improvements 16:25:49 <Rubidium> yup, all crashes are non-optiminal, especially when it doesn't involve crashing vehicles but the binary 16:27:15 * peter1138 remembers the number of train crashes with the old PBS 16:27:17 <peter1138> hee 16:27:27 <Eddi|zuHause3> well... imho that is an issue that might as well be solved after hitting trunk... some issues are even better to be solved there because there are probably more testers 16:27:53 <Eddi|zuHause3> very humble, anyway :p 16:28:09 <Rubidium> true-ish 16:28:34 <Rubidium> it also involves a lot of reviewing and with 200+ kB of patch that takes very long 16:28:48 *** lobster_MB [~michielbr@5350C1D1.cable.casema.nl] has joined #openttd 16:28:54 <Rubidium> especially because it is in the most complex places of OpenTTD 16:28:54 <Eddi|zuHause3> that is true 16:29:17 <Eddi|zuHause3> if it was easy, it would have been done 2 years ago :p 16:29:24 <Rubidium> peter1138's 'increase the max spritecount a little'-patch was much bigger, but much easier to review ;) 16:29:39 <peter1138> And even that had mistakes :p 16:30:23 <Ammler> maybe someone should test, if you can still play old style games with YAPP patch :-) 16:30:25 <peter1138> Well, this is annoying. 16:30:36 <peter1138> I found 4 sticks of 32MB SIMMs, and 2 sticks of flash. 16:31:16 <peter1138> Turns out either all 4 sticks are duff, or the board is duff as it does not like any of them, and the flash is only 8MB :o 16:31:38 <peter1138> (4 * 16MB SIMMs works :o) 16:31:40 <Eddi|zuHause3> SIMMs? are that those, who go on 486/Pentium boards? 16:31:51 <peter1138> No. 16:32:10 <peter1138> It's an IDT R4700 CPU... 16:32:27 <peter1138> 100MHz, woo 16:32:56 <Ammler> the ML on that image does not need bridges for hubs, every train does switch from left to right as needed, junctions are connected on both sides, it workes quite well, we have about 600 trains on that network... 16:33:53 <Rubidium> number of trains per network doesn't tell us a lot 16:34:09 <Rubidium> 600 trains on a 2kx2k map is 'boring', on a 128x128 map it is amazing 16:34:38 <Eddi|zuHause3> what size was the pile transport? 16:34:45 <Rubidium> 1024x1024 16:34:46 <Ammler> 1024^2 16:35:15 <Rubidium> ~1000 trains 16:37:03 <Ammler> http://www.openttdcoop.org/blog/psopenttdcooporg3981/ 16:38:34 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r13718 /trunk/src/players.cpp: -Fix: possible desync on the autorenew settings 20+ game years (i.e. 4.5+ hours) after a company was started. 16:38:50 <Ammler> maybe the first nongrf game of coop since 2 years :-) 16:40:39 <Eddi|zuHause3> well, YAPP makes a totally different game style possible :) 16:40:43 <fjb> Ammler: Your grf game you once invited me too looked much nicer. 16:41:21 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause3: Single track lines are actuelly working with YAPP: :-) 16:41:38 <Eddi|zuHause3> i know ;) 16:42:05 <Ammler> fjb: yeah, the game style of members quite changed... 16:42:05 <Eddi|zuHause3> single track was also quite good with the old PBS 16:42:13 <Eddi|zuHause3> but twoway stations!! 16:42:33 <Ammler> we didn't make games like pile transport on the MZ long time :( 16:46:22 *** Anon2216 [~indio@79.98.2.191] has joined #openttd 16:46:57 <Ammler> Rubidium: the yapp game delivers as much as pile transport. 16:47:09 <Ammler> on a 512² map 16:47:33 *** Anon2216 [~indio@79.98.2.191] has quit [] 16:53:22 <Yexo> and how much does it transport? 16:53:47 <fjb> Is each passenger and each ton of cargo a packet? 16:54:55 <dih> Rubidium is on a commit-spree.... 16:55:02 <dih> go go go! 16:57:19 <Yorick> skreeeeeee 16:58:00 <fjb> The C++ syntax is really ugly... 16:59:55 <dih> what dont you like? 17:09:53 *** TiberiusTeng [~Tiberius@sbt.idv.tw] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:10:36 <fjb> Things like this: ((const CargoPacket*)obj)->index + 1 17:10:45 <Eddi|zuHause3> fjb: no, packages with same cargo and same creation time get merged 17:10:57 <fjb> Really hard to read when you don't work with C++ every day. 17:11:11 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause3: Thank you. 17:12:12 <Eddi|zuHause3> up to 64k or something ;) 17:12:22 <Eddi|zuHause3> (and of course same source station) 17:12:57 <fjb> So there aren't 8000 packets at each station... 17:13:05 <glx> fjb: that's C syntax too 17:13:37 <fjb> glx: C sytax is ugly too. But C++ makes it even worse. 17:14:14 <Eddi|zuHause3> fjb: the only bad thing about that is that you have to manually cast everything 17:14:57 <fjb> Casting is evel. Why di I have a type save language when I have to cast everything anyway? 17:15:40 <SmatZ> evel? di? save? 17:15:42 <frosch123> fjb: I doubt you would be happier if everything would be templated 17:17:07 <SmatZ> mmm 'ln' is the one I should fake fun of :-P 17:17:12 <SmatZ> sorry fjb 17:17:14 <Rubidium> Ammler: boring game then ;) my YAPP game deliver 25% more than Pile on 128x128 17:17:16 <fjb> frosch123: Templating is the thing that makes C++ syntax worse compared to C. It is a syntactical nightmare. Ok, they didn't know about usability in the early 70s. 17:19:14 <Ammler> Rubidium: I saw you ships on that map :P 17:19:45 <Rubidium> yup, otherwise I could only reach ~90% of Pile 17:19:56 <Ammler> :-) 17:20:15 <hylje> that's the CHEATING!! 17:20:19 <Rubidium> just because there isn't enough place to build stations and especially tracks 17:20:48 <Ammler> a game like that: http://www.openttdcoop.org/wiki/PublicServer:Archive_-_Hall_of_Fame#gameid_34 17:20:48 <hylje> i thought the point was about using those sparse tracks as efficiently as possible? 17:21:20 <Ammler> one of the last nonyapf games 17:26:39 *** KillaloT [~killalot@0x5738cc9a.rdnqu1.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd 17:26:45 <Yorick> what would be the best language to code http://pastebin.org/52111 in? 17:27:29 <hylje> bf 17:28:40 *** fmauNeko is now known as fmauNekAway 17:28:58 <glx> Yorick: bash 17:29:12 <Rubidium> dash! 17:29:17 <Yorick> I don't know bash 17:29:23 <hylje> /bin/sh 17:29:45 <glx> but it's should be possible to do it in a .bat or a .cmd 17:30:23 <Yorick> I've been trying to get file contents read to variables for decades in cmd 17:34:55 <Rubidium> shouldn't that be possible with the shell that's in vista? 17:35:00 <Rubidium> or is that shell like winfs? 17:36:02 <Yorick> powershell isn't in vista 17:37:45 <glx> powershell looks good, but I never tried to install it 17:40:51 <Yorick> powershell is not installed everywhere 17:42:11 <Yorick> neither is bash, on windows systems 17:42:14 *** Mchl [~mchl@abes235.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 17:42:19 <Yorick> I could offcourse include it 17:42:32 <Mchl> hello 17:42:43 <joachim> bash is like the brain... everyone should have it, but... 17:43:34 <glx> Yorick: when .bat or .cmd can't do what you want you can try .vbs :) 17:44:05 <Yorick> I don't know vbs... 17:44:12 <Mchl> vbs... dark side... 17:44:23 <Yorick> I think php could do exactly what I need 17:44:36 <glx> you need to install php for that :) 17:44:41 <Mchl> and what do you need? 17:44:50 <Yorick> http://pastebin.org/52111 17:45:18 <Yorick> for the silly users that can not run that script when it's written in 'english' 17:45:43 <Mchl> yeah, most likely php could do that 17:45:43 <Eddi|zuHause3> oh... i remember the times when DOS had macros :p 17:46:11 <Mchl> not sure about zipping though 17:46:16 <Yorick> everyone should get themselves a script interpreter implanted.. 17:46:26 <Yorick> Mchl: you could get that with 7za.exe 17:46:32 <Yorick> that's not my main problem 17:46:36 <Yorick> it's actually my least 17:46:53 <Eddi|zuHause3> you could override internal commands with those 17:47:10 <Eddi|zuHause3> like you could replace "dir" with "echo y | del *.*" 17:47:48 <Yorick> virus! 17:47:51 <Eddi|zuHause3> of course, both have the same postcondition... you know exactly which files are in the directory afterwards :p 17:48:07 <Yorick> wouldn't del *.* -y do? 17:48:24 <Eddi|zuHause3> i don't think DOS had that kind of switch 17:48:26 <Mchl> where's fun with that :P 17:48:48 <Mchl> was it in MS-DOS? 17:49:13 <Eddi|zuHause3> i've used Novell DOS most of the time 17:49:15 <Yorick> "dir" -> "Do you really wish to delete the files? y" "Files deleted" -> "NOOO, undo, undo!" 17:49:39 <glx> unerase :) 17:49:42 <Mchl> that's why I don't recall having such macros :) 17:49:50 <Eddi|zuHause3> Yorick: actually, "del" was one of the few commands that did not actually print anything if they succeeded 17:50:06 <Yorick> did del del.exe work? 17:50:09 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host107-16-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 17:50:12 <Eddi|zuHause3> Mchl: i'm sure i read about them in a book for MS-DOS 5.0 17:50:25 <Eddi|zuHause3> Yorick: del was a builtin command 17:50:33 <Yorick> :) 17:50:35 <Eddi|zuHause3> so you had to del command.com 17:50:44 <Mchl> I did all sorts of batching in 6.22, but never such macros 17:50:47 <Wolf01> hello 17:50:58 <Yorick> why doesn't powershell come in a single mouth-size exacutable? 17:51:05 <glx> Yorick: del is not an exe 17:51:44 <Eddi|zuHause3> afaik the novell dos command.com wasn't a real .com file, but an .exe renamed to .com 17:52:06 <Mchl> not that it ever mattered for DOS 17:52:23 <Mchl> I had .bat renamed to .exe 17:52:46 <glx> it matters for priorities 17:52:54 <Mchl> priorities, yes 17:52:58 <glx> a.com > a.exe 17:52:59 <Eddi|zuHause3> .com is tried first, i believe 17:53:34 <Mchl> that;s what I believe too :) 17:53:55 <glx> and a.bat > a.com IIRC 17:54:19 <Mchl> this I'm not sure about 17:54:22 <Eddi|zuHause3> no, .bat was the last one 17:55:27 <Eddi|zuHause3> the order was: macro, builtin, (com, exe, bat)[repeat for each entry in %PATH%] 17:56:53 <kyevan> What's the min spec for openttd on Mac? 17:56:56 <Eddi|zuHause3> where the last part could be overridden by specifying an extension 17:57:20 <glx> kyevan: OSX 17:57:22 <Eddi|zuHause3> kyevan: a monitor 17:57:34 <kyevan> Eddi|zuHause3: Oh, I don't have one of those :( 17:57:38 <Rubidium> osx 10.3 or newer 17:57:48 <Rubidium> monitor doesn't matter 17:58:19 <Mchl> you can play on printer 17:59:26 <Eddi|zuHause3> Rubidium: ok, but it is recommended for non-server-usage :p 18:01:48 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1E40E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:02:05 <Mchl> MS-DOS had doskey app for defining macros 18:02:21 <Mchl> still not sure if they were higher priority than builin commands 18:02:35 <glx> I used doskey for command history 18:04:09 <Mchl> and for custom command prompt ;) 18:04:26 <Mchl> was it doskey or something else... 18:04:31 <Mchl> can't remember 18:08:02 *** KillaloT [~killalot@0x5738cc9a.rdnqu1.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:09:40 <ln> evening, i'm out of prison again. 18:12:09 <Touqen> escaped again? 18:12:41 <ln> not again, the first time. 18:19:44 <Mchl> should 'private' go before, or after 'abstract'? 18:20:05 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@p54B80582.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: It's like, wah.] 18:20:09 <Mchl> I mean, which would you consider more important when reading code? 18:23:09 <Yorick> before 18:24:19 <ln> Mchl: there's no such rank as 'abstract'. 18:27:56 <Mchl> it's just that PHP manual has an examlpe, where 'abstract; goes in front of visibility 18:29:29 <Eddi|zuHause3> i think in pascal/delphi, "abstract" came after the function declaration 18:30:05 <Mchl> php doesn't care 18:30:33 <hylje> that sums up PHP 18:31:06 <ln> saving abstract ryan? 18:31:09 <frosch123> I hope you do not want to declare a function both private and abstract :p 18:32:00 <Eddi|zuHause3> imho, "private" is something that you should not need to repeat for every function... but i don't know PHP 18:33:07 <Eddi|zuHause3> frosch123: i hoped he'd kinda figure that one out on his own :p 18:33:45 <Mchl> yeah... protected not abstract :P 18:33:57 <Mchl> all methods are public by default in php 18:34:01 <Mchl> crap 18:34:05 <Mchl> protected, not private 18:34:07 <Mchl> :P 18:37:29 <Eddi|zuHause3> Mchl: "default" doesn't mean you can't override it for a whole block of functions 18:40:33 * Mchl goes back to documentation 18:41:17 <kyevan> Hmm 18:41:33 <kyevan> OpenTTD is rather slow on a 400 mhz mac running 10.3 >_> 18:41:44 <kyevan> Then again, what isn't? <_< 18:42:38 <Noldo> kyevan: use smaller map? 18:43:31 <kyevan> Going muchsmaller than 256^2 gets weird >_> 18:43:50 <Mchl> but challenging :) 18:43:56 *** fmauNekAway is now known as fmauNeko 18:44:19 <kyevan> Only if you don't use RVs, Mchl :P 18:44:42 <kyevan> Hmm. It also doesn't like the color depth changing under it :P 18:44:51 <Eddi|zuHause3> kyevan: typical performance killers are ships, NPF and ECS 18:45:23 <kyevan> Eddi: Or runing on a machine under spec for the OS it's running on? >_> 18:46:04 *** fmauNeko is now known as fmauNekAway 18:46:06 <Eddi|zuHause3> kyevan: that shouldn't do anything when the OS is actually idle 18:46:34 <glx> can windows idle ? 18:46:46 <kyevan> glx: Wouldn't matter in this case. 18:46:59 <kyevan> Unless Windows runs on PPC iMacs LO 18:47:04 <kyevan> s/LO/:P/ 18:49:23 *** ben_goodger [~ben@host217-44-86-192.range217-44.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 18:50:10 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1E40E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 18:58:42 *** mikl [~mikl@0304ds2-ba.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #openttd 19:08:54 <Yexo> are there more industry / cargo grfs except for ecs and pikka's basic industries? 19:09:34 <Yorick> the tourist industry set? 19:09:59 *** Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:10:11 <Yexo> didn't know of that one, thx 19:10:18 <Ammler> newcargos from MB 19:10:41 <Ammler> but that is "just" a experimental grf 19:11:18 <Yexo> Yorick: you mean http://grfcrawler.tt-forums.net/details.php?do=details&id=157 ? 19:11:39 <Yorick> :Y 19:12:06 <Ammler> canada set has also newindustries in it... 19:12:28 <Noldo> maple syrup? 19:12:34 <frosch123> technically "alpine" also 19:13:27 <Yexo> canada set as in "canadian trains set"? 19:13:49 <Ammler> I guess so... 19:14:39 <Ammler> http://svn.openttdcoop.org/grfpack/tags/7.1/8_vehicles/trains_wagons/canset/CanSet%20-%20Quick%20Setup%20Guide.txt <-- parameter 2 19:17:35 <Yexo> thx Ammler 19:18:06 <Noldo> Yexo: testing your AI ? 19:18:11 <Yexo> yep 19:18:17 <Ammler> seems no new industries, only having all industries in all climates... 19:19:02 <Yexo> but both ecs and pikka's industries are too complicated (mostly because som eindustries need two cargos or they'll stop accepting it) 19:20:31 <Ammler> Yexo: maybe easier for AI then for human :P 19:21:01 <Yexo> maybe, but it required quite drastic changes to my AI 19:21:16 <Ammler> ECS got parameter settings, which allows disabling stockpiling(closing etc. 19:21:54 <Yexo> I'll have too read the readme for ecs sometime for that :) 19:23:07 <Yexo> In the last version I improved station handling, so now industries can use some work 19:23:20 <Yexo> also see http://www.student.tue.nl/V/t.i.marinussen/5000.png (5000 road vehicles in one 512^2 map :p) 19:24:24 <ArmEagle> hah, trafficjam! 19:24:50 <Yexo> make that jams :) 19:25:06 <Noldo> few road are quite yellow 19:25:28 <ArmEagle> it's just one big jam! 19:25:32 <Yexo> most of the vehicles were driving, only a few were actually standing still 19:26:38 <Yexo> unfortunatly the maximum number of road vehicles in openttd is 5000 (the patch settings doesn't go higher) 19:28:18 <Eddi|zuHause3> use trains :p 19:28:22 *** Klanticus [~Klanticus@201-43-142-122.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:29:16 <Eddi|zuHause3> actually, the german tram set [unreleased] has cargo trams that look like small trains 19:34:58 *** Yexo_ [~Yexo@32-88-ftth.onsneteindhoven.nl] has joined #openttd 19:35:08 *** Yexo [~Yexo@32-88-ftth.onsneteindhoven.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:35:30 *** Yexo_ is now known as yexo 19:36:06 <yexo> how does the stockpiling work? Is that something openttd knows about, or is it internal to the grf 19:36:32 *** fmauNekAway is now known as fmauNeko 19:36:59 *** Purno [~Purno@5350931D.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:38:57 *** Brianetta [~brian@client-86-26-82-230.nrth.adsl.virgin.net] has joined #openttd 19:39:29 <Rubidium> more or less internal 19:39:52 <Eddi|zuHause3> yexo: the grf uses callbacks for that 19:40:04 <yexo> so there is no way an api could be created for the ai to now the amount of goods stockpiled 19:40:17 <yexo> that's a shame 19:40:29 <Eddi|zuHause3> i'm not sure about that... 19:40:32 <Rubidium> the amount of goods stockpile can be determined fairly easily (IIRC) 19:40:45 <Rubidium> how much can be stockpiled is something completely different 19:41:30 *** Yorick [~yorick@s55924da0.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Quit: Don't go near Rubidium...he's radioactive and makes you go Poef!] 19:41:37 <Eddi|zuHause3> last time i checked, PBI put status messages like "coal stockpile is getting full (750t)" in the industry window 19:42:14 <Eddi|zuHause3> yexo: you can definitely find out that the stockpile is full, when the station stops accepting the cargo :p 19:42:14 <frosch123> google cannot translate between english and noai 19:42:15 <yexo> Eddi|zuHause3: the grf can put whatever it want in the industry window, but as long as that is done by the grf and not by openttd it's useless for an ai 19:42:48 <Ammler> yet 19:42:59 <Rubidium> as I said, only the amount stockpiled can be determined by OTTD, the maximum amount and such cannot be determined by OTTD 19:43:01 <Eddi|zuHause3> yexo: yes, but you can extend the grf spec for status replies like that 19:43:27 <Eddi|zuHause3> and then ask the grf authors to implement the AI callbacks 19:43:30 <Rubidium> (except actually stockpiling cargo till it's full) 19:43:40 <yexo> Rubidium: where do I need to start looking in the code? 19:44:03 <Rubidium> industry.h 19:44:32 <Eddi|zuHause3> i'd suggest reading the grf spec on industries, and then following the code for these specs 19:45:55 <frosch123> newgrf_callbacks.h is also a nice way to find something for grepping 19:49:39 <frosch123> except you won't find the production callback there 19:50:27 <Ammler> @seen yorick 19:50:27 <DorpsGek> Ammler: yorick was last seen in #openttd 38 minutes and 48 seconds ago: <Yorick> :Y 19:50:45 <Ammler> :-/ 19:59:00 <Rubidium> ' 20:02:07 <Ammler> I like to put the GRFPack outside of the web , which function do I need in php to make a script download.php, which loads the pack? 20:02:34 <Ammler> (a little bit OT :-) 20:03:22 <Ammler> (no direct links to the GRFPack should be possible) 20:03:41 <Noldo> outside of the web? 20:03:51 <glx> send the header then outputs the file 20:04:07 <Rubidium> fpassthru? 20:04:09 <ccfreak2k> No, don't send the header! 20:04:16 <ccfreak2k> That's exactly what they expect you to doQ! 20:05:36 <yexo> readfile will do the trick 20:05:55 <Ammler> fopen and fpassthrough sounds good 20:06:33 <yexo> that's the same as readfile, but readfile is easier ;) 20:06:42 <Ammler> yep, just read about... 20:07:04 <Eddi|zuHause3> real programmers use a butterfly... 20:07:24 <Rubidium> why is readfile easier? 20:08:39 <yexo> Rubidium: what is easier: readfile(filename); or fpassthr(fopen(filename, "r")); 20:08:39 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause3: something with rewrite? 20:08:48 <Rubidium> still, there isn't much that you can do about hotlinking without breaking some browsers 20:09:12 *** glx|away [glx@bny93-6-82-245-156-124.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #openttd 20:09:12 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx|away] by ChanServ 20:09:17 *** lobster_MB [~michielbr@5350C1D1.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:09:28 *** glx is now known as Guest1403 20:09:28 *** glx|away is now known as glx 20:09:51 <Rubidium> interesting 20:10:20 <Rubidium> readfile/fpassthru seems to be 55% slower than feopen/feof/fread/echo 20:11:14 <Rubidium> according to one of the comments on the php documentation page of fpassthru 20:11:15 <SpComb> gah, benchmarking PHP I/O 20:11:59 *** Guest1403 [glx@bny93-6-82-245-156-124.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:12:25 <SpComb> Ammler: what is it that you want to do exactly? "outside of the web"? 20:12:57 <SpComb> do you just want to disable hotlinking to the .zip? Tell your web server to do that 20:12:58 <Ammler> I wan't to make the GRFPack not accessable from web 20:13:02 <Ammler> not directly 20:13:14 <SpComb> Ammler: so kill your http server and unplug your server's network connection, then 20:13:20 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r13719 /trunk/src/ (42 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: rename IsValidPlayer to IsValidPlayerID in line with all other structs/classes that are in a pool. 20:13:23 <SpComb> preferrably, you could also power it down and remove the power cable as well 20:13:26 <Ammler> :P 20:13:59 <SpComb> I presume you mean "accessible in a limited way" 20:14:02 <Eddi|zuHause3> SpComb: he wants to enforce that people link to the index page, which features a kind of readme and a download link 20:14:19 <SpComb> right, that kind of stuff is best done in your web server's configuration 20:14:49 <Ammler> rewrite rules? 20:14:59 <Ammler> and how? 20:15:25 <SpComb> http://www.cyberciti.biz/faq/apache-mod_rewrite-hot-linking-images-leeching-howto/ <-- first google result for "apache hotlinking" 20:15:32 <Eddi|zuHause3> all those hosters who disallow image hotlinks must have some wayys 20:15:34 <SpComb> probably not the best one, but something like that 20:16:20 <SpComb> preferrably something that would redirect the user to another URL if they try and hit a download URL without having the correct referrer 20:16:30 <Ammler> I will check that with our web gurus :-) 20:16:41 <SpComb> I would know how to do it with lighttpd, but I don't use Apache that much 20:16:43 <Ammler> thank you so far... 20:17:33 <Ammler> well, what about browsers without referrer? 20:17:46 <SpComb> tough luck for them, I guess 20:18:01 <Ammler> hmm 20:18:19 <yexo> or allow openttdcoop.org and empty as referers 20:18:26 <yexo> only disallowing strange sites 20:19:09 <SpComb> if it's really important then you could also script something with e.g. cookies, but you'd really want to be able to avoid having to ship the file data around yourself, and leave that to your httpd 20:19:40 <SpComb> (lighttpd lets a script set an "X-Lighttpd-Sendfile" header that tells lighttpd to send the contents of a file) 20:20:21 <Ammler> I thought more of something like needed a key if referrer not openttdcoop.org 20:23:19 *** lobster_MB [~michielbr@5350C1D1.cable.casema.nl] has joined #openttd 20:24:32 <Noldo> Ammler: why don't you just redirect to the download page if the referer doesn't match 20:25:38 <SpComb> http://trac.lighttpd.net/trac/wiki/Docs%3AModSecDownload <-- you can do something similar with Apache as well using a rewrite script 20:26:02 <SpComb> Noldo: < Ammler> well, what about browsers without referrer? 20:26:02 *** TinoM [~Tino@i59F5726F.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 20:26:49 <Noldo> tough luck 20:27:18 <Ammler> :-) 20:27:26 <Ammler> same answer as SpComb :P 20:27:46 *** KritiK [~Maxim@93-80-82-188.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 20:28:04 <Ammler> I could redirect those without right referer 20:28:21 <Ammler> and keep the IP, if they try a 2. time, I can allow it... 20:28:48 <Noldo> why are you doing this in the firstplace anyway? 20:29:26 <Ammler> people should download the pack from our page 20:29:31 <fjb> Did the airport noise calculation change? 20:29:38 <Ammler> for credit page and readme etc. 20:29:54 <SpComb> http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.0/mod/mod_rewrite.html#rewritemap <-- you could use a `RewriteMap valid_hash prg:/home/foo/bar.py` 20:30:04 <Rubidium> don't forget the ads 20:30:09 *** Sacro [~Ben@adsl-87-102-119-5.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:30:25 <Ammler> but indeed, it shouldn't be that complicated... 20:30:40 <SpComb> have the download page create an URL that contains the hash of a secret and a timestamp/ip, and then validate that in the valid_hash 20:30:59 <SpComb> that's the more complicated solution for those cases where you don't have a referrer to go by 20:31:13 <SpComb> allowing empty referrers is also a valid solution, far simpler 20:31:22 <Ammler> Rubidium: don't think so, that those counts :P 20:31:42 <Noldo> why would you want to be nice to browsers why don't want to tell where they came? 20:32:16 <Rubidium> wget url-to-pack 20:33:09 <SpComb> and that's also true, not everyone wants to save-as the download from the website, breaking wget-from-your-server is pretty annoying 20:34:02 <Rubidium> what's more annoying is download from website, go with shell/tool to file, copy to the server *again* typing the full path 20:34:06 <Noldo> well if the point is to make people visit the download page then there is no way to be wget friendly 20:34:24 <Rubidium> instead of "copy link location", alt-tab, wget "paste" 20:34:37 <Ammler> well, I need to discuss it with my mates anyway... 20:34:42 <SpComb> well, if you really cared about that, then those magic-hash-token URLs would work with wget as well 20:35:43 <Ammler> Noldo: I thought about a key or something for "friends" 20:35:49 <Noldo> limiting the pack to grfs that don't require this kind of stuff would solve it too 20:35:56 <Ammler> like zuu's windowsupdater and such... 20:37:10 <Ammler> Noldo: the GRF 20:37:28 <Ammler> Pack without the distributable GRFs is quite empty 20:37:52 <Ammler> MBs GRF would be almost the only GRFs then 20:38:49 <SpComb> and if they were all distributeable then you could distribute them automatically from within OpenTTD... 20:39:02 <dih> not that topic again.... 20:39:13 <dih> :-P 20:39:35 <Ammler> SpComb: yep 20:39:38 <SpComb> yes, and then add a "can I distribute this?" flag to .grf files 20:39:58 <Ammler> Oskar should include a direct download link to the Crawler 20:40:01 <SpComb> or could you just add a license tag to .grfs, and then decide if you're allowed to distribute them based on that? 20:40:22 <SpComb> although that presumeably doesn't cover the "read the readme before using this .grf" thing 20:40:23 <Noldo> SpComb: there is no technical solution to licensing 20:40:33 <SpComb> Noldo: of course not, we're talking about DRM here 20:40:46 <SpComb> after all 20:41:17 *** Sacro [~Ben@adsl-87-102-119-5.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd 20:41:23 <Noldo> I see reference checking as a kind of DRM too 20:41:32 <Ammler> easiest would be a direct download link on the crawler, if someone like to support it, he just need to include the link... 20:42:03 *** Sacro [~Ben@adsl-87-102-119-5.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:42:23 *** Sacro [~Ben@adsl-87-102-119-5.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd 20:42:49 <Ammler> and maybe a HTML viewer in ottd for the readme :P 20:43:38 <dih> an HTML viewer? you are not thinking of including that in the game are you? 20:43:43 <dih> :-P 20:43:56 <Ammler> isn't that possible? 20:44:28 <dih> sure, grab an opensource browser and build it into OpenTTD :-P 20:44:57 <Ammler> so not 20:45:11 <Rubidium> and then release openttd even more often because of security errors in the browser? 20:45:11 <Ammler> well, I thought, it might be SDL has already something like that... 20:45:16 <dih> OpenTTD would get a pretty bulky thing 20:45:34 <dih> 14MB :-D 20:45:43 <dih> where 4 MB actually is game 20:46:07 <Ammler> you do not need script support etc. 20:46:46 <dih> you just need to perfectly render xhtml 20:46:52 <Ammler> just some basic formats like bbcode or so 20:47:02 <dih> oh - and then perhaps include css support, because everybody will want that 20:47:14 <dih> and then the width of the div is not the same as in browser x 20:47:26 <Ammler> :-) 20:47:36 <Ammler> there is only one browser then :P 20:47:43 <dih> you can see where that would be heading can you? :-P 20:48:11 <Prof_Frink> rewrite the gui in Qt and use webkit 20:48:12 <Noldo> for everyrhing else there is emacs 20:48:23 <Ammler> yeah, I would going to use ottd also for browsing the internet :-) 20:48:43 <dih> Prof_Frink, probably then resulting in even less os's being supported 20:49:16 <SpComb> there's plenty of browser-widgets in libraries, depends on your dependencys, I guess 20:49:47 <Ammler> and last, a text only viewer would be enough too 20:49:54 <SpComb> for viewing HTML source? 20:50:09 <dih> and then 'auto-download' 50 grf's and let the game display all readme files just to satisfy the authors 20:50:09 <Ammler> for viewing readmes. 20:50:10 <dih> lol 20:50:37 <dih> if you leave it the way it is, it's up to the user 20:50:41 <SpComb> dih: and a big fat "Next »" button 20:50:48 <dih> yeah 20:50:51 <Ammler> dih: how many grfs do you know with readmes? 20:50:53 <dih> (49) 20:50:56 <dih> (48) 20:51:08 <dih> and you can only click the button after scrolling right to the end 20:51:17 <dih> Ammler: beside the point 20:51:19 <Noldo> naturaly 20:51:25 <Ammler> :-) 20:51:48 <dih> point being: it should in no way be OpenTTD's duty to make sure the readmy has been read 20:51:57 <dih> as long as there is no distribution, that is done :_P 20:52:05 <dih> it's up to the client to do that 20:52:14 <dih> and that is fine, is it not? 20:52:21 <Ammler> that would support the authors wishes even better... 20:53:27 <Eddi|zuHause3> hm... this is the second time i had rpm segfault on me... 20:53:42 <dih> use a .deb system :-P 20:53:44 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590e57d1.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:53:55 <Prof_Frink> Eddebian|zuHause3 20:54:02 <Prof_Frink> You know it makes sense. 20:54:15 <dih> ;-) 20:54:21 <dih> Eddeb 20:54:31 <dih> but that sounds too close to Eddepp 20:54:34 *** einKarl [~einKarl@91-65-196-232-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:54:42 <dih> and we dont want that now, do we :-P 20:54:53 *** glx [glx@bny93-6-82-245-156-124.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 20:55:22 <SpComb> load the remotely for use, and then just "cache" it locally... that's not distribution, is it? :P 20:55:38 <dih> LOL 20:55:46 <Wolf01> 'night 20:55:49 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host107-16-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 20:55:50 <SpComb> perhaps require the user to download it separately if they want to use the newgrf to start a new game/server 20:55:52 <dih> give more network control to grf's 20:56:03 <Eddi|zuHause3> by german law, "distribution" needs the transfer of a physical object 20:56:04 <dih> then write a grf that reads and sends new packet types 20:56:08 <SpComb> but download it if they are just acting as a client 20:56:11 <dih> and implement the system with a grf 20:56:28 <Eddi|zuHause3> downloading and copying does not constitute "distribution" 20:57:40 <SpComb> perhaps NewGRF authors would be OK with automatically downloading it for network game clients, but not have those be valid for starting new games/servers? 20:57:57 <DaleStan> And how would you enforce that? 20:58:30 <SpComb> how would you enforce the NewGRF author's rights and license conditions with the current state of affairs? 20:59:18 <Rubidium> by not providing the 'tools' to actually do so? 20:59:22 <SpComb> not so sure if "enforce" is the right term to use, because that's impossible, even without an autodownload system 20:59:29 <SpComb> dunno, someone else could provide them 20:59:38 <Ammler> SpComb: you are at #tycoon too 20:59:51 <Ammler> so ask next time you see oskar there... 20:59:54 <DaleStan> No, enforce "not valid for starting new games". 21:00:17 <SpComb> Ammler: ask what? 21:00:31 <Ammler> adding new fields to GRFCrawler... 21:00:41 <SpComb> DaleStan: well... it's a question of intent, and what the NewGRF authors think of that 21:00:55 <Ammler> like direct download link 21:01:08 <dih> i just got a Bus Error with 13718 21:01:13 <dih> client side 21:01:14 <SpComb> so e.g. you could store them without the GRF name, just the GRFID 21:01:47 <Ammler> I thought about renaming all GRFs in the pack to that :-) 21:02:04 <SpComb> that wouldn't stop someone from writing a tool that just extracts those for normal use, but someone could also write something like that _right now_, and the newgrf authors would be powerless to stop it 21:02:16 <dih> and i can reproduce it 21:02:20 <SpComb> unless they sued/C&D'd whoever was running the server for it 21:02:47 <Prof_Frink> dih: That's a *stupid* number for a bus. 21:03:11 <DaleStan> Someone could write something like what? There aren't currently any protections to evade. 21:03:47 <dih> gdb output: 21:03:48 <dih> Program received signal EXC_BAD_ACCESS, Could not access memory. 21:03:48 <dih> Reason: KERN_PROTECTION_FAILURE at address: 0x0000004e 21:03:48 <dih> 0x00148040 in Utf8Decode () 21:03:56 <dih> when i try to view details on the DMU 21:04:02 <dih> 1960 21:05:00 <SpComb> DaleStan: well, e.g. NR-TTD contains a component that downloads a bunch of .zip files and extracts them, which is, to some degree, similar to what we're discussing now 21:05:25 <Brianetta> Bah, had to invite myself 21:05:33 <Brianetta> [22:05] --- You have been invited to #coop.members by ChanServ (kinetic.oftc.net) 21:05:51 <Ammler> aua :P 21:06:09 <SpComb> although it downloads them from them from whereever the GRF author hosts the file normally over HTTP, and not from e.g. some random user's server 21:06:17 <Progman> Brianetta: you're lucky, you got an account at nickserv.... 21:07:02 <Brianetta> Progman: Well, luck had less to do with it than registering... 21:07:20 <SpComb> someone could maintain a database that maps GRFIDs to HTTP URLs, and then some client-side module that maps the server's GRFs to HTTP URLs through that, and downloads them 21:07:48 <Ammler> GRFID and md5sum 21:07:58 <Ammler> (versioning) 21:08:38 <SpComb> (wget http://foo.bar/download?grfid=438434 -> HTTP 302 Found http://ttdpatch.de/whatever/whatever.grf) 21:08:47 *** dragonhorseboy [4a396fef@67.207.141.120] has joined #openttd 21:09:17 <dragonhorseboy> hey 21:09:21 <Ammler> would you as server admin trust that url? 21:09:53 <SpComb> Ammler: well, dunno, you as a server admin could operate your own DB or something 21:10:05 <Ammler> I guess, you need to 21:10:20 <Ammler> that's also a reason for the pack 21:10:31 <SpComb> and then your clients would need to trust you... remote code execution via grf download... 21:10:37 <Ammler> because they mostly remove old versions 21:11:05 <Ammler> well, It makes sense to trust the server you like to join, doesn't? :-P 21:11:17 <SpComb> (if you download a .grf for GRFID=482394 from server A, and then server B tells you to load that GRFID, do you download it again or use the one you have?) 21:11:28 <SpComb> although perhaps providing the md5sum would solve that issue as well 21:11:43 <Ammler> [23:07] <Ammler> GRFID and md5sum 21:11:58 <Eddi|zuHause3> <Prof_Frink> dih: That's a *stupid* number for a bus. <- why? trains have that kind of numbers all the time 21:12:22 <SpComb> but yes, implementing such a HTTP-redirect server on the OpenTTD server side, and a HTTP client on the client side probably wouldn't violate any licenses 21:12:26 <Eddi|zuHause3> and busses could easily be used as train replacement for certain situations ;) 21:12:59 <Eddi|zuHause3> germans have the word "Schienenersatzverkehr" for that ;) 21:13:02 <dragonhorseboy> the question would be..could this also work with older-than-current grfs of the same grfid? 21:13:11 <SpComb> nope 21:13:27 <SpComb> unless the GRF authors continue to provide the old versions for download 21:13:37 <dragonhorseboy> then there's not much point if its buggy for the typical server that doesn't have same of everything 21:13:42 <SpComb> which they have to do in any case... directly or via the ottdc grfpack 21:14:22 <Eddi|zuHause3> i don't think that download feature is worth the trouble 21:14:37 <dragonhorseboy> eddi agreed 21:15:20 *** Klanticus [~Klanticus@201-43-142-122.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #openttd 21:15:20 <peter1138> I could implement it just to annoy OzTransLtd further 21:15:21 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause3: thanks to "our" pack, but ask those you see our grflist and first grep the internet for all GRFs 21:15:50 <SpComb> the current solution is to make a .zip of the NewGRFs you use in your server, and then (illegally) distribute it to your friends - or alternatively, tell them to download the ottdc grfpack 21:16:05 <Eddi|zuHause3> you can search for grfids in grfcrawler 21:16:09 <Ammler> then they join #openttdcoop and tel they have now found all grfs but can't still join. 21:16:14 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:16:17 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r13720 /trunk/src/vehicle_gui.cpp: -Fix (r13715): string wasn't correctly passed to draw function. 21:16:18 <SpComb> (grfcrawler has an XML API, btw) 21:16:26 <Eddi|zuHause3> SpComb: make a .tar, and they won't even need to extract it ;) 21:16:28 <fjb> peter1138: :-) You are evil. 21:16:49 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has joined #openttd 21:17:24 *** fmauNeko is now known as fmauNekAway 21:18:26 *** fmauNekAway is now known as fmauNeko 21:18:34 <SmatZ> jen ta prace s tim balenim ma hodnotu! 21:18:43 <SmatZ> sorry wrong window 21:19:05 <peter1138> English only! 21:19:24 <Ammler> SpComb: if we would like to use GRFCrawler, it needs to change to a wiki style 21:19:39 <Ammler> so everybody can add and edit entries. 21:20:10 <SpComb> haven't seen eis_os on #tycoon for a month 21:21:01 <Ammler> and wiki style also would need versioning... :-) 21:21:24 <SpComb> Ammler: well, feel free to write your own... :) 21:21:54 <Ammler> yeah, but first we need to know, that eis_os doesn't wan't to 21:22:02 <Ammler> -' 21:22:47 <peter1138> He doesn't, because he asked the GRF authors and got no positive responses. 21:23:17 <Ammler> asked about "open" the crawler? 21:24:08 <Ammler> I have something similar like cia.vc in mind 21:24:33 <Ammler> active authors could claim exclusive rights for their entries. 21:24:37 <Eddi|zuHause3> SmatZ: after running it through google translator, i'm still not sure if that was cybersex or not :p 21:25:13 <peter1138> Right, but authors can't be bothered with all that. 21:25:31 <peter1138> They're perfectly content with just posting in a version in a forum thread. 21:25:31 *** GoneWacko [GoneWacko@86-60-147-155-dyn-dsl.ssp.fi] has joined #openttd 21:25:44 <Ammler> then they do not need to make it exclusive and we would like to help 21:25:54 <Eddi|zuHause3> so we actually need a spider crawling through the forums 21:26:00 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause3: hehe, not :) 21:26:27 *** Wezz6400 [~Wezz6400@ndb.demon.nl] has joined #openttd 21:27:13 <Eddi|zuHause3> i'm leaning towards yes, because i have read on bash.org how that "wrong window" thing works :p 21:27:15 *** glx [glx@bny93-6-82-245-156-124.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #openttd 21:27:15 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 21:28:40 <Ammler> our current ps: 21:28:40 <Ammler> http://grfcrawler.tt-forums.net/index.php?do=search&type=grfidlist&q=6D620900,%2044440A01,%2045520102,%2045520400,%2050430301,%2043415463,%205443E104,%2058534453,%204D413032,%2054560202,%20504E0002,%2052570103,%2052571201,%2044440401,%204A430002,%2045530400,%20524B0301,%204D656F17,%2045520500,%206D620004,%206D620601,%2043415261,%2053470102,%205257131E,%205257131D,%204D413034,%2052571302,%2041424631,%20659E5728,%2052455200,%2052453C00,%204C410002,%2 21:28:40 <Ammler> 052455300,%2074677462,%2056430001,%2044444040,%20554B5400,%20504E0001,%2054570200 21:28:43 <Ammler> ups 21:28:53 <peter1138> Well done. 21:29:04 <Ammler> around 60% is in the crawler 21:29:05 <SpComb> meh, reading through the most recent "NewGRF Web Service" topic, I honestly can't see any stark facts that would make such a system impossible 21:29:49 <peter1138> There's no technical reason it can't be done. 21:30:14 <SpComb> and I beleive that it's possible to work out acceptable solutions to the social/political/legal issues 21:30:31 <SpComb> the car analogy that I like to use here is that people *die* every day in motor traffic, yet people *still* drive around in cars each day 21:30:34 <Ammler> 1. it would need a repo and then some authors which participate 21:30:36 <peter1138> Even so, I'm going to bed. 21:30:38 <SpComb> a system doesn't have to be perfect 21:30:56 <SpComb> just good enough 21:31:18 <SpComb> and in the end, I'm sure most NewGRF authors just want people to actually play/use their GRFs... 21:31:26 <Ammler> of course 21:31:41 <Ammler> until now, nobody complained about our pack 21:32:13 <Eddi|zuHause3> apart from "i can't load all grfs at once" :p 21:32:18 <Ammler> :-D 21:32:22 <yexo> SpComb: the main reason I hear every time: Who can upload new grfs to the service? If you only allow grf authors, that list (who can upload) has to be maintained. If you allow everyone to upload, what about people uploading grfs from authros that don't allow that? 21:32:41 <glx> Ammler: you pack theorically only contains latest version of any grf 21:33:06 <SpComb> yexo: indeed, and it's probably impossible to figure out a perfect solution to that issue... but that doesn't stop you from implementing something that works mostly correclty 21:33:18 <SpComb> YouTube was mentioned in that thread, and that example is still relevant here 21:33:37 <Ammler> glx: yes, older versions aren't accessable anymore 21:33:47 <Ammler> except the legacy packs 21:34:00 <yexo> of course you can implemenbt something that works mostly, but if by doing so you make some grf authors angry (who therefore make their grfs incompatible with openttd), I won't be happy with the system 21:34:10 *** bleepy [bleepy@5ad923eb.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:34:15 *** bleepy [bleepy@5ad1d19d.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 21:34:40 <SpComb> if you implement the system reasonably, then any NewGRF author that goes into counterattack mode is pretty unreasonable 21:34:51 <SpComb> and I'm under the impression that very few people play TTDPatch anymore 21:35:01 <Eddi|zuHause3> i still think an automatic spider kind of thing would be better than a wiki style repo 21:35:20 <Eddi|zuHause3> so the authors don't have to do double and triple accounting 21:35:43 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause3: I thought the GRFcrawler worked that way some years ago... 21:36:18 <SpComb> but yes, I understand that it's clearly a horribly bad idea for the OpenTTD devs to include something in trunk that copies the .grf data from the server to the clients 21:36:23 <SpComb> it would have to work somewhat differently 21:36:50 <Ammler> SpComb: why horribly? 21:37:01 <SpComb> because I can understand why GRF authors would be upset by that 21:37:03 <Eddi|zuHause3> SpComb: once there was an idea to provide grfcrawler links, but that kind of needs a browser dependency 21:38:10 <Prof_Frink> SpComb: So have the server provide an URL for the grf, and the client wget it 21:38:39 <ArmEagle> hmm, any chance it's now the wiki that's moving? 21:38:48 *** _Lakie_ [~Lakie@80.247.163.109] has joined #openttd 21:39:04 <SpComb> Prof_Frink: yes, I suggested that half an hour ago 21:39:21 <Prof_Frink> SpComb: Great minds 21:39:35 <SpComb> and I also noted that e.g. Nr-TTD contains a module that does just that 21:39:51 <SpComb> (well, wgets a list of .zips/.grfs automatically) 21:40:06 *** _Lakie_ is now known as Lakie` 21:40:28 <SpComb> http://zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/nr-ttd/download/newgrf_index 21:40:28 <Ammler> has not the TTDPatch configurator also something like that? 21:41:39 <SpComb> and I never heard a single complaint from a NewGRF author about it, even though I'm sure several were aware of it 21:43:14 <SpComb> wolf makes a lot of good points in that thread 21:45:30 <Eddi|zuHause3> i have never heard of a "nr-ttd" before 21:45:34 *** Pikka [~PikkaBird@CPE-121-223-89-101.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 21:46:32 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause3: have you been active in the TTDPatch section of the forums during the past two years? 21:47:16 <Eddi|zuHause3> i have only sporadically visited the forum 21:47:22 <SpComb> indeed 21:47:34 <SpComb> it's not related to OpenTTD in any way, so it's natural that you've never heard of it 21:49:08 *** Pikka [~PikkaBird@CPE-121-223-89-101.qld.bigpond.net.au] has quit [] 21:49:24 <SpComb> perhaps what one needs is input from people who are actually NewGRF authors, not just a bunch of game devs speculating about stuff 21:49:55 <SpComb> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=578888#p578888 <-- some of the discussions from the ottdc_grfpack is relevant here 21:50:56 <SpComb> a) require the GRFID and md5sum to be able to download the file b) a bit more difficult... would require something in the OpenTTD GUI... 21:51:20 <SpComb> well, not really. the ottdc_grfpack doesn't show anything in the GUI either, so nevermind that 21:52:00 <SpComb> if you use the same interpretation of "credit is given, with a link to my website" as the ottdc_grfpack, implementing that shouldn't be too difficult 21:53:08 <Eddi|zuHause3> "credit" is easy, just pack a readme and the grf in a .tar file 21:53:13 <Ammler> what I got from the authors is, that they like, if you read the their readmes and guides to configure the newgrfs proper 21:53:25 <SpComb> indeed 21:53:32 *** ben_goodger [~ben@host217-44-86-192.range217-44.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:53:43 <Ammler> so you do not have ugly things on the map because of missconfiguration 21:53:46 <SpComb> except network game clients can't configure the NewGRFs used by the server in any case 21:53:50 <Ammler> and blame the GRF for that. 21:53:53 <SpComb> that's only relevant when creating a new game 21:54:49 <Eddi|zuHause3> so, provide a "read once" flag somewhere, and then show the readme (textfile) in openttd when adding it to the grflist for the first time 21:55:00 <Ammler> yes, and because a joining client can't confiugre it, id doesn't matter if they can download it in a pack. 21:55:09 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause3: meh, it's not like the ottdc grfpack implements that kind of behaviour, does it? 21:55:32 *** Lakie is now known as Lakie_ 21:55:35 *** Lakie` is now known as Lakie 21:55:43 <SpComb> if it was implemented it would need to apply to the ottdc grfpack as well 21:55:57 *** Lakie_ is now known as Lakie` 21:56:08 <SpComb> (and then PikkaBird's "ps, you may want to update av8 to 1.31" request could also be handled by letting PikkaBird update the newgrf himself) 21:56:28 <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, it would apply to any grf, the readme is shown unless the grfid is already stored in the .cfg as "already read" 21:57:32 <Eddi|zuHause3> but this is actually separate from any kind of download feature 21:57:44 *** Lakie` [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has quit [Quit: Failsafe failure please contact Owen Rudge for maintaince or you local ISP.] 21:57:49 <Ammler> SpComb: as I said, most (or all) authors are happy to have the grf in the pack 21:59:04 <SpComb> Ammler: when building the grfpack, was that tt-forums thread the only method that you used to get permission from the authors? 21:59:24 <Ammler> SpComb: mostly, yes. 21:59:29 <SpComb> or did you contact induvidual authors directly and ask them? 21:59:37 <Ammler> we also mailed with about 2-3 authors. 22:00:40 <Ammler> as we thought about the pack, we thought about to contact every author 22:01:12 <Ammler> but then, it was difficult to determine who is resposible for the GRF etc. 22:01:23 <Ammler> so I made that thread. 22:01:34 <Ammler> and Brianetta helped me ::-) 22:01:44 <Ammler> 2. post 22:02:01 <SpComb> so the implication is that most of the .grfs in the grfpack are there because the authors themselves came forward and gave you permission? 22:02:10 <Ammler> no 22:02:43 <Ammler> the grfs are in because nobody forbids me to do it... 22:02:58 <Ammler> I guess, foobar is one of the only 22:03:20 <Ammler> I asked because he strictly forbid distributing in his readme. 22:03:23 <SpComb> hmm... are most of those GRFs released with an explicit license that you follow? 22:03:42 <Ammler> :-) 22:03:49 <Ammler> do not ask such question... 22:04:13 <SpComb> implicit? :) 22:04:38 <Ammler> somehow yes. 22:04:40 <SpComb> well, I think the topic merits further discussion, including discussion with NewGRF authors, once we have some kind of concept 22:05:26 <Ammler> you can count of help from us, we can't play without grfs anymore... 22:05:45 <SpComb> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=36945 <-- reading this thread, there's plenty of compelling arguments that are unresolved (although it also does bring up some issues as well, but nothing impossible, imo...) 22:06:35 <SpComb> Ammler: have you ever had a case where a NewGRF author explicitly forbade you from distributing their GRFs? 22:06:55 <Ammler> I once asked eis_os for his 2 grfs :-) 22:07:25 <Ammler> (he coded his grfs to not run with ottd) 22:07:51 <Ammler> sometimes, authors ask us to include their grfs... 22:08:04 <Ammler> but nobody did forbid us to :-) 22:08:48 <SpComb> solving the technical implementation is indeed not an issue, once we manage to work out the social/political/legal ones 22:09:01 *** kolobos [~kolobos@ip21-004.dsl.i-set.ru] has joined #openttd 22:09:09 <Ammler> technically, it is the versioning... 22:09:41 <SpComb> the OpenTTD server already provides the md5sum, doesn't that solve any versioning issues? 22:09:51 <SpComb> or what do you mean with them? 22:10:00 <Ammler> I mean you need to keep different versions availabe... 22:10:52 <Ammler> that's why you can't use just a link 22:10:53 *** Touqen [~stephen@c-98-216-253-146.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:11:55 <SpComb> the clients can download, store, and use the grfs based on the md5sum - the repo can keep several versions available - although it does need some kind of indication/warning so as to not make outdated/legacy GRFs an issue 22:11:57 *** Mchl [~mchl@abes235.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:12:22 <SpComb> but the NewGRF author being able to add updated versions right away themselves should counter some of the negative aspects of that issue 22:12:40 <SpComb> *should be able to 22:12:45 <Ammler> outdated GRFs should only be availabe for a running serverm, not a new one :-) 22:12:52 <SpComb> yes, exactly 22:13:11 <SpComb> there's a distinction between using a GRF as a network client, and using a GRF as a singleplayer/network server 22:13:39 <Ammler> and you should be able to "help" the authors by keeping the REPO up2date 22:13:53 <SpComb> not a cryptographically secure disctinction, though 22:14:00 <Ammler> some authors even don't care about at all, 22:14:16 <Ammler> I can imagine, George would be one of those... 22:14:58 <Ammler> he dosn't care, if we use his GRFs, but he does not wan't more work with it. 22:15:18 *** Wezz6400 [~Wezz6400@ndb.demon.nl] has quit [Quit: :w] 22:15:19 <Ammler> so we need to maintain the repo for him... 22:16:25 *** glx [glx@bny93-6-82-245-156-124.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:16:49 <SpComb> the way I see it, there would have to be a central database containg GRF metadata (GrfID, md5sum, author, website, etc. - not the same as GRFCrawler, though), and if this were to make it into OpenTTD trunk, then the official client would refuse to automatically download the GRF unless it was in this database 22:16:51 *** Touqen [~stephen@c-98-216-253-146.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 22:17:42 <Rubidium> what is 'running' server and what is 'new' server? 22:18:09 <SpComb> Rubidium: network client, network server 22:18:13 <Ammler> loaded map is running, starting map is new 22:18:44 <Rubidium> looks like ottdcoop will not be able to run a game version of two years back as the 'current' newgrfs wouldn't be compatible with that version 22:19:00 <Rubidium> (read as if in 4 years time or so) 22:19:44 <Ammler> well, if the server wants to use the the repo support... 22:19:47 <Rubidium> but starting a new map doesn't fetch newgrfs from a server I reckon 22:19:52 <kolobos> I can't open http://www.openttd.org/about.php . Other people also reported troubles with the site. 22:20:01 <Ammler> we could still load the game and save it with new grfs. 22:20:17 <Rubidium> kolobos: complain at your ISP for not having a properly configured DNS server 22:20:35 <SpComb> (and note that when I say "the official client would refuse to automatically download the GRF unless it was in this database", I don't imply that "if the GRF is in this database, then everyone is free to do whatever they want with it" - these are all partial ideas...) 22:21:07 <Ammler> SpComb: one important thing is, you can't exc 22:21:29 <Ammler> expect grf authors add the grfs self to the database 22:21:56 <Ammler> but not because the do not like it, they just are too lazy or gone or what ever... 22:22:11 <Ammler> not all of course :-) 22:23:04 <SpComb> I'm sure if you can get the explicit agreement of some subset of NewGRF authors then you should be pretty safe making some kind of assumptions about the majority of the rest 22:23:58 <SpComb> with some kind of sane process in place to correct mistakes arising from that, most authors shouldn't have much to complain about 22:24:37 <Ammler> if we could provide them with nice statistics 22:24:45 <Ammler> they would really be happy 22:24:55 <Ammler> how much is my GRF used etc... 22:25:04 <SpComb> Ammler: out of interest... what's the reasoning behind "you may only download the ottdc grfpack directly from us"? Not having old, broken versions of it laying around? 22:25:07 *** GoneWacko [GoneWacko@86-60-147-155-dyn-dsl.ssp.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:25:23 <Ammler> yes 22:25:35 <Ammler> and knowing who is using it 22:26:15 <Ammler> if someone would complain, we can then remove his grf 22:26:20 <SpComb> if this system was conveniently integrated directly into OpenTTD, I'm sure most people would be reluctant to download outdated GRFs from anywhere else :) 22:26:28 <Ammler> and should be sure, it isn't availabe anymore... 22:28:31 <dih> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=32659 <- updated ;-) 22:28:45 <SpComb> this would be one of the inherent properties of a centralized GRF database 22:30:13 <Ammler> hmm, you could also mark the grfs then with something like "stable", "experimental" etc.... 22:31:04 <Ammler> or other experiences... 22:31:21 <dragonhorseboy> ammler... "stable" v1 or "stable" more-vehicles-to-use v2? 22:31:41 <dragonhorseboy> thats why I prefer if people would just leave any grfs they made up .. not taking one down unless it was buggy 22:31:51 <SpComb> (also useful to note that GRFCrawler shares the users database with tt-forums, which can also be used for this) 22:32:23 <Ammler> maybe not only user database 22:32:31 <Ammler> also GRF data 22:32:53 <Ammler> except ID/md5sum/file itself :-) 22:34:56 <Ammler> dragonhorseboy: you trash the old prodcut to sell the new... :-) 22:35:27 <Eddi|zuHause3> dragonhorseboy: 99.99% of all software is buggy 22:36:21 *** glx [glx@bny93-6-82-245-156-124.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #openttd 22:36:24 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 22:36:50 <SpComb> so essentially, this project would, in effect, combine GRFCrawler and the ottdc_grfpack, and then add some support into the client to make it all more convenient 22:37:07 *** rainer [~rainerd@pD9ED662F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 22:37:42 *** rainer [~rainerd@pD9ED662F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 22:38:25 <Ammler> GRFCrawler would only be usefull, if it does open a liitle bit 22:38:54 <Ammler> if you are able to fix links from other authors, if they are absent for months... 22:39:43 <SpComb> yes, I don't think that the current GRFCrawler code would be very useful 22:39:58 <Ammler> as I said, about 40% of the pack grfs aren't available over Crawler... 22:40:49 <SpComb> yes, that's probably true, Rubidium (or someone else?) also stated the same in the thread 22:41:06 <dragonhorseboy> ammler...I don't think so (re trashing) 22:41:08 <SpComb> eis_os has been pretty absent recently, and GRFCrawler dates from the TTDPatch era 22:41:46 <Ammler> didn't he just update it some months ago 22:41:48 <dragonhorseboy> what about canstation when it has a CLEARLY stated id incompactibility between two versions .. how would someone else download an older author-created gamesave if the stations can't appear right due to the newer grfs? 22:41:51 <dragonhorseboy> ;) 22:42:35 <Rubidium> I'd say that uhm... the GRF ID should've been changed? 22:43:23 <dragonhorseboy> nope..its still same last I checked 22:43:36 <dragonhorseboy> as such is with many other grfs 22:44:10 <Ammler> yeah, ISR has same problem currentyl 22:44:26 <Ammler> he forgot to change ID from 0.6 to 0.7, afaik 22:44:51 <SpComb> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=602285#p602285 <-- what better way to control the distribution of the majority of GRFs than a centralized database? 22:44:52 <dragonhorseboy> or jcindust....ukrs....etc 22:44:58 <dragonhorseboy> too many to list 22:45:56 <SpComb> make it convenient enough and most people will have a reason to keep their servers compatible with it, and thus the newest versions of the GRFs... 22:46:42 *** kolobos [~kolobos@ip21-004.dsl.i-set.ru] has quit [] 22:47:33 <Ammler> well, I ususally do also symlink the server data to the web 22:48:06 <Ammler> so if the server got old and has some outdated GRFs, you can get them that way :-) 22:48:50 <Ammler> since you don't have original files there anymore, shouldn't be a big problem... 22:52:19 <SpComb> also noteworthy to compare this centralized-metadata-db with flag-in-the-.grf 22:52:45 <SpComb> if you flip the bit in the .grf, and then give a copy to someone else, then they can redistribute at will, and there's no way to recall it 22:53:18 <Ammler> btw: a md5sum/GRFID list: http://svn.openttdcoop.org/grfpack/tags/7.1/md5GRFIDlist 22:53:30 <SpComb> if the official game client always checks some central db before automatically downloading a grf, then you'd need to use a custom patched version of the OpenTTD client, which is an entirely different issue 22:54:11 *** dragonhorseboy [4a396fef@67.207.141.120] has left #openttd [] 22:54:39 *** fjb [~frank@p5485FDF7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:54:40 <Ammler> openttd has tar support 22:55:02 <Ammler> if someone likes to add readme etc, just put that all together in a tar... 22:55:26 <SpComb> perhaps better to unpack it into a dir, because most people won't go looking for a README in a plain .tar 22:55:28 <SpComb> esp. on windows 22:56:12 <SpComb> OpenTTD may support reading the .grf from a .tar, but the user may not support reading the README from a .tar :) 22:56:37 <Ammler> thats why we do not distribute the grfpack as tar 22:57:31 <Eddi|zuHause3> i suggested displaying in openttd... if people don't look in a tar, they also don't look in a dir that was automatically created 22:58:18 <SpComb> they will if they're trying to figure out what NewGRFs to use when creating a new game, and thus trying to figure out what a NewGRF does 22:58:26 <SpComb> at least that's how I behave 22:59:44 <Ammler> SpComb: so you have ALL grfs availabe in your GUI 22:59:59 <SpComb> hmm? 23:00:00 <Eddi|zuHause3> the "i want to add all grfs" people kinda contradict that theory, SpComb 23:00:04 <Ammler> and if you choose one GRF which isn0t on your hd, you download it... 23:00:06 *** fjb [~frank@p5485C657.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 23:00:12 <Ammler> (creating a new game) 23:00:16 <SpComb> many GRFs are mutally exclusive... 23:00:41 <SpComb> Ammler: dunno, the behaviour of this when creating a new game is a separate issue 23:01:05 <Eddi|zuHause3> SpComb: sure, you know that, i know that, but $random_noob doesn't know that 23:01:13 <SpComb> if I were to implement this right now, it would be purely for network clients, and the downloaded NewGRFs would be stored separately from other GRFs 23:01:45 <SpComb> it wouldn't stop people from copying those GRFs over, but that doesn't matter, it's just a question of intentions 23:02:01 <SpComb> then, later, you could try and figure out what GRFs could also be made available when creating a new game 23:02:03 <Ammler> as GRFID.md4sum.grf :-) 23:02:06 <SpComb> (only the newest versions, etc) 23:02:34 <SpComb> ${OPENTTD_DIR}/cache/GRFID.md4sum.grf 23:03:00 <Ammler> as GRFID.md4sum.grf.gz 23:03:05 <Ammler> :-) 23:03:28 <SpComb> this would encourage people running servers to mostly use NewGRFs that are in the db, and this would also encourage people to encourage GRF authors to have their GRFs in the db 23:04:23 <Ammler> but you need some GRFs to start with :-) 23:04:50 <SpComb> not an issue, you can use dummy NewGRFs when implementing, testing and then demonstrating the prototype 23:05:05 <SpComb> or just ask some NewGRF author to let you use their GRFs as an example 23:05:37 <Ammler> forum grfs like USSet, JPSet 23:05:39 * SpComb isn't very far from starting to implement a prototype 23:05:56 <Ammler> :-) 23:06:59 <Ammler> well 23:07:11 * Ammler isn't very far from falling to sleep... 23:07:25 <SpComb> yes, that's the sad truth :( 23:07:43 * SpComb is busy this weekend as well, in a place as far from the internet as anything 23:07:45 <Ammler> good night and keep some of the chat :-) 23:10:35 *** fjb_ [~frank@p5485FFA0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 23:11:44 *** Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #openttd 23:13:40 *** bleepy [bleepy@5ad1d19d.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:14:09 *** fjb [~frank@p5485C657.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:19:27 *** fjb_ is now known as fjb 23:23:08 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1E40E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:39:24 *** Zahl [~Zahl@f051108009.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: (~_~]"] 23:43:56 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: smatz * r13721 /trunk/src/blitter/32bpp_base.hpp: -Codechange: one less multiplication for colour mixing in 32bpp blitters (GeekToo) 23:46:04 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r13722 /branches/noai/ (6 files in 2 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: AICargoList_IndustryNNN (Yexo)