Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:00:02 <George> Belugas wrote that house ID is extended byte, and I could use it in cation 0 00:00:02 <George> 1323 * 50 00 07 12 01 FF B1 00 00:00:02 <George> but when I try to define its' graphics with action 3, I get a problem. 00:00:02 <George> //!!Warning (142): <num-cid> must be 0 for this feature. 00:00:02 <George> //!!Fatal Error (42): Length does not match n-id and num-cid of 01 and B1. (Expected 538 bytes) 00:00:04 <George> 1362 * 9 03 07 01 FF B1 00 00 FE 00 00:00:04 <George> What am I doing wrong? 00:01:13 <petern> nforenum won't understand it 00:05:42 <George> I'd like to see Dale on-line :S 00:10:43 <George> I've assembled it without NFORenum and it does not work. House does not get new graphics. 00:12:57 <Wolf01> 'night :o 00:13:03 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host105-233-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 00:13:36 *** KillaloT [~killalot@0x5738c8aa.rdnqu1.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd 00:14:25 *** sigmund [~sigmund@91.80-202-245.nextgentel.com] has joined #openttd 00:16:09 *** sigmund_ [~sigmund@91.80-202-245.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:16:49 *** roboboy [3aad2910@webchat.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 00:16:51 *** OwenS [~OwenS@host86-128-252-186.range86-128.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:17:47 *** stillunknown [~stillunkn@82-136-225-75.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:32:59 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B750AC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 00:33:23 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B7471A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 00:38:33 *** stillunknown [~stillunkn@82-136-225-75.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd 01:03:18 *** a2k [~a2k@92.112.108.229] has joined #openttd 01:03:24 <a2k> hello 01:03:37 <a2k> is there any way to disable version check in network play? 01:04:00 <Vikthor> Why would you want to do so? 01:04:48 <Vikthor> The game will desync very fast if you have different versions 01:05:26 <a2k> i want to play on my home server using my internet tablet. but openttd for maemo is only 0.6.0 version :( 01:05:49 <Vikthor> just install 0.6.0 on your server 01:06:40 <a2k> i also want to play on this server with my friends who use 0.6.3 01:08:16 <Vikthor> you can install openttd into different directories and it should work 01:09:12 <a2k> i'll need to manualy compile it to do that 01:09:29 <Eddi|zuHause> then you will have to do that 01:10:20 <a2k> ok.. 01:10:37 <Vikthor> hmm 2 am here, I wish you good night 01:10:56 <a2k> so it can be much better to compile 0.6.3 for maemo 01:11:09 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@161-18-80-78.strcechy.adsl-llu.static.bluetone.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:15:46 *** KillaloT [~killalot@0x5738c8aa.rdnqu1.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-] 01:20:50 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@89.246.185.91] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:25:10 *** Brianetta [~brian@82-69-0-3.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:32:08 *** Brianetta [~brian@82-69-0-3.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 01:33:39 *** rortom [~rortom_@5ac3db6d.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 01:39:22 *** KritiK [~Maxim@93-80-158-62.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:55:57 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@ip-105.imafexbb.sk] has quit [Quit: Quit] 01:58:54 *** rubyruy [~ruy@S0106000c6e57c851.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #openttd 01:59:01 *** rubyruy [~ruy@S0106000c6e57c851.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [] 02:01:56 *** roboboy [3aad2910@webchat.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 02:02:10 *** robotboy [3aad2910@webchat.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 02:03:44 *** davis- [~suckyours@p5B28D086.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:10:55 *** ecke [~ecke@213.195.202.130] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:15:23 *** stillunknown [~stillunkn@82-136-225-75.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:30:10 *** mortal [~mortal@0x573a3da2.odnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: Checking whether build environment is sane ... build environment is grinning and holding a spatula. Guess not.] 02:32:22 *** paul_ [~paul@host86-150-1-27.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 02:32:31 *** Feletacion [~Feletacio@201.160.239.17.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has joined #openttd 02:32:33 <Feletacion> Asians, Whites, Amerindians, and Mestizos are descended from extraterrestrials who mixed with anthropoids and Neanderthals. Niggggers really did solely evolve from just MONKEYS. Join us today at Chimpout.com! No matter what race you are, as long as you aren't a nigiigger. http://www.chimpout.com/forum/index.php 02:33:24 *** Dr_Link [~TMS@75-136-135-230.dhcp.gnvl.sc.charter.com] has joined #openttd 02:35:23 *** DephNet[Paul] [~paul@host86-150-1-27.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:35:40 <Dr_Link> On a server, if connecting as an OpenTTD client, how do I set autoclean_companies to off using rcon? 02:35:50 <Dr_Link> rcon <password> autoclean_companies off does not seem to work... 02:36:20 <glx> @op 02:36:23 *** mode/#openttd [+o glx] by DorpsGek 02:36:24 <a2k> why "off" and not "0"? 02:36:39 *** mode/#openttd [+b *!~Feletacio@*.160.239.17.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] by glx 02:36:52 <Dr_Link> I tried setting it to zero. 02:36:55 *** Feletacion was kicked from #openttd by glx [Feletacion] 02:36:56 <Dr_Link> I typed 02:37:04 <Dr_Link> rcon <password> autoclean_companies 0 02:37:06 *** paul_ is now known as DephNet[Paul] 02:37:09 *** DephNet[Paul] [~paul@host86-150-1-27.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [] 02:37:16 <Dr_Link> and it said autoclean_companies is currently set to: on 02:37:24 *** DephNet[Paul] [~paul@host86-150-1-27.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 02:38:41 <Dr_Link> a2k: ideas? 02:39:30 *** rortom [~rortom_@5ac3db6d.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:40:37 <a2k> maybe there is some dependency on other variable 02:44:05 *** Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:44:55 *** fjb_ [~frank@p5485D55D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 02:47:47 *** Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #openttd 02:48:21 <glx> Dr_Link: try rcon <password> "autoclean_companies 0" 02:48:44 *** fjb [~frank@p5485E518.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:49:48 <glx> @deop 02:49:51 *** mode/#openttd [-o glx] by DorpsGek 02:57:38 *** glx [glx@bny93-6-82-245-156-124.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 02:58:04 *** rortom [~rortom_@5ac3db16.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 03:10:45 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@89.246.185.91] has joined #openttd 03:21:33 *** rortom [~rortom_@5ac3db16.bb.sky.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:31:01 *** fjb_ [~frank@p5485D55D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 03:47:38 <Dr_Link> How do you completely remove a town in the scenerio editor? 03:49:19 <benjamingoodger> I don't think you can delete the actual town. you should instead remove its central road tile and leave it be... 04:00:14 *** ecke [~ecke@213.195.202.130] has joined #openttd 04:01:57 *** elmex_ [~elmex@e180069156.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd 04:02:37 *** Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:02:47 *** nekx [~asd@0x3e42e6e6.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:06:39 *** Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #openttd 04:07:00 *** elmex [~elmex@e180068100.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:07:01 *** elmex_ is now known as elmex 04:15:41 *** nicfer [~usuario@168.226.104.4] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:17:53 *** Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:22:26 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 04:25:40 *** Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #openttd 04:51:55 *** Brianetta [~brian@82-69-0-3.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:55:18 *** tokai [~tokai@p54B8187E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:57:22 *** tokai [~tokai@p54B8175A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 04:57:25 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 05:42:40 *** benjamingoodger [~ben@host81-153-83-31.range81-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: +++ Out Of Cheese Error +++] 06:09:48 <Rubidium> Dr_Link: tried clicking on the town name? 06:15:08 <George> Rubidium: Should action 3 support extended byte house ID (FF 00 - FF 01)? Looks like it does not work. 06:19:12 <Rubidium> my interpretation of the specs says that extended bytes are only used for vehicles (rest uses plain bytes) 06:23:06 <Rubidium> although it should be possible to make it support extended bytes eventually 06:26:30 <George> Belugas wrote that it should work http://bugs.openttd.org/task/2441?project=1 06:27:14 <George> was he mistaken 06:34:07 <Rubidium> looks like the action 3 doesn't read an extended byte 06:34:57 <Rubidium> though I'm not sure whether just making it an extended byte doesn't break existing newgrfs (that assume it's a byte) 06:37:26 <Rubidium> changing that would possibly require a newgrf version bump, but I'm far from certain 07:19:14 *** tokai [~tokai@p54B8175A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:20:39 *** tokai [~tokai@p54B8147D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 07:20:42 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 07:27:03 *** Zorni [zorn@e177228006.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd 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#openttd 10:12:25 *** TinoM [~Tino@i59F5C948.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 10:16:07 *** bleepy [bleepy@5ad456b4.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 10:26:41 *** roboboy [3aad2910@webchat.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 10:27:12 *** robotboy [3aad2910@webchat.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 10:41:18 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fe3e8.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #openttd 10:46:00 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host105-233-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 10:46:10 <Wolf01> hello :D 10:50:30 <frosch123> you will shortly run out of smilies 10:53:46 <petern> then you'll be using frownies 11:04:04 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@161-18-80-78.strcechy.adsl-llu.static.bluetone.cz] has joined #openttd 11:13:21 *** davis- [~suckyours@p5B28D89D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 11:17:57 *** a2k_ [~a2k@94.178.212.179] has joined #openttd 11:22:20 *** a2k [~a2k@92.112.108.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:24:34 *** Progman 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[truebrain@openttd.org] has left #openttd [So long and tnx for all the fish] 12:46:39 *** Xeryus|bnc is now known as XeryusTC 13:00:12 *** stillunknown [~stillunkn@82-136-225-75.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:10:17 *** glx [glx@bny93-6-82-245-156-124.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #openttd 13:10:20 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 13:16:43 *** Mortal [~mortal@0x573a3da2.odnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd 13:33:36 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1C455.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 13:39:48 *** KritiK [~Maxim@78-106-158-82.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 13:44:42 *** George3 is now known as George 13:51:23 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1C455.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:54:08 *** StarLionIsaac [~chatzilla@user-5445016b.lns3-c11.dsl.pol.co.uk] has joined #openttd 13:55:28 *** roboboy [3aad2910@webchat.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 13:56:53 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B7471A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:02:53 *** sulai [~Miranda@p5B2B45BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 14:03:45 <George> Belugas: are you here? 14:14:05 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1C455.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 14:19:36 <Rubidium> George: that's pretty unlikely 14:20:21 <George> What is the right way to test if the user is on-line? 14:20:44 <frosch123> phone wolfgang schÀuble 14:21:06 *** sulai [~Miranda@p5B2B45BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 14:21:13 <George> frosch123: why? 14:21:25 *** Mortal is now known as Guest567 14:21:27 *** mortal [~mortal@0x573a3da2.odnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd 14:21:33 <frosch123> never mind - german politics :) 14:21:56 <George> Sorry, did not understand the joke 14:22:06 <Rubidium> George: there's no way to determine a user is on-line 14:22:13 <glx> George: Belugas is usually away during week ends 14:23:09 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B7471A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 14:23:37 <George> Rubidium: for normal users they are displayed in grey when they are away, but mods are always red, so I can't see if a mod is away or not. And bulugas is a mod 14:23:59 <George> Belugas 14:24:03 <frosch123> George: he is minister of interior and known for designing laws to spy private lives and internet accesses, which are usually canceled later by constitutional court 14:24:46 <Eddi|zuHause> talking about mister S.? 14:26:30 *** TrueBrai- [truebrain@openttd.org] has joined #openttd 14:26:56 <glx> @op 14:26:59 *** mode/#openttd [+o glx] by DorpsGek 14:28:13 <frosch123> do you want to hide your presence :p 14:28:43 *** Guest567 [~mortal@0x573a3da2.odnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:29:17 *** stillunknown [~stillunkn@82-136-225-75.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd 14:32:46 <George> frosch123: No, I do not. 14:36:08 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 14:37:04 *** TrueBrai- [truebrain@openttd.org] has quit [Quit: Look at me flying!] 14:37:20 *** Splex [~splex@121.165.245.124] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:40:10 <glx> @deop 14:40:12 *** mode/#openttd [-o glx] by DorpsGek 14:42:13 <petern> the term is op, not mod 14:42:30 <petern> and ops can certainly be shown as away. clearly you client leaves things to be desired... 14:43:02 <dihedral> haha frosch123 - i like that one ;-) 14:43:59 <dihedral> George, get a decent client :-P 14:44:23 <dihedral> else you can see in the /whois result if a client is set to away or not 14:44:44 <glx> dihedral: his client shows it correctly 14:44:57 <glx> just most away users don't set away mode 14:45:26 <dihedral> hehe :-P 14:45:26 <George> dihedral: I found, my client distplayes it correctly, simply belugas does not set his away status 14:45:39 <dihedral> you are very fast George - must say 14:46:21 <George> English is not my native :S 14:48:25 *** Splex [~splex@121.165.245.124] has joined #openttd 14:48:27 <yorick> dihedral: we're currently running the gaming day :) 14:48:57 <dihedral> yes - i saw on the server list - does not look like it's a full event :-P 14:49:01 <dihedral> but congrats :-) 14:49:14 <yorick> hehe, 11 players! 14:50:13 <dihedral> what issues did you have (wrt the servername) 14:50:41 <yorick> desync on join yesterday 14:53:24 *** StarLionIsaac [~chatzilla@user-5445016b.lns3-c11.dsl.pol.co.uk] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008120122]] 14:57:06 <yorick> and again, it seems to be a cargodest bug 14:57:58 <Eddi|zuHause> well, report it... 14:58:13 <yorick> but can't reproduce it 14:59:21 *** Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:03:54 *** Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #openttd 15:05:50 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fe3e8.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:10:27 *** mortal is now known as Guest574 15:10:29 *** mortal [~mortal@0x573a3da2.odnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd 15:12:02 *** elmex [~elmex@e180069156.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd 15:14:12 *** Splex [~splex@121.165.245.124] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:17:30 *** Splex [~splex@121.165.245.124] has joined #openttd 15:17:34 *** Guest574 [~mortal@0x573a3da2.odnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:29:29 <dihedral> @seen Brianetta 15:29:29 <DorpsGek> dihedral: Brianetta was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 4 days, 15 hours, 55 minutes, and 5 seconds ago: <Brianetta> It's making me snigger now 15:29:37 <dihedral> ouch? 15:32:45 *** a2k_ is now known as [A2K] 15:43:13 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@ip-105.imafexbb.sk] has joined #openttd 15:47:09 *** mortal` [~mortal@0x573a3da2.odnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd 15:52:39 *** mortal`` [~mortal@0x573a3da2.odnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd 15:54:05 *** mortal [~mortal@0x573a3da2.odnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:59:35 *** mortal` [~mortal@0x573a3da2.odnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:03:09 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fe3e8.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #openttd 16:14:04 *** mortal`` [~mortal@0x573a3da2.odnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:19:48 *** Eddi|zuHause2 [~johekr@p54B77DE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 16:21:54 *** stillunknown [~stillunkn@82-136-225-75.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:23:23 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B7471A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:27:37 *** Rexxars [~rexxars@85.19.218.49] has joined #openttd 16:45:48 *** orudge [~orudge@owenrudge.net] has left #openttd [] 16:45:49 *** orudge [~orudge@owenrudge.net] has joined #openttd 16:45:51 *** mode/#openttd [+o orudge] by ChanServ 16:51:11 *** mortal [~mortal@0x573a3da2.odnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd 17:01:29 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5ad84b79.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:03:43 *** stillunknown [~stillunkn@82-136-225-75.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd 17:23:31 *** sigmund_ [~sigmund@91.80-202-245.nextgentel.com] has joined #openttd 17:24:44 *** George3 [~George@212.113.107.216] has joined #openttd 17:25:17 *** sigmund [~sigmund@91.80-202-245.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:28:49 *** George [~George@212.113.107.216] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:29:56 <Dr_Link> Hey guys. 17:29:58 <Dr_Link> Questionl 17:30:00 <Dr_Link> *. 17:30:29 <Dr_Link> How do people have their servers to where if someone sends a chat message out beginning with a ! it responds to it as a "command"? 17:32:55 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@161-18-80-78.strcechy.adsl-llu.static.bluetone.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:38:56 *** George3 is now known as George 17:40:15 <frosch123> do you mean autopilot ? 17:46:17 <yorick> Dr_Link: patched server/autopilot/other bot 17:46:27 <Dr_Link> patched server 17:46:47 <Dr_Link> I know of one server that kicks you if you terraform more than x amount of tiles at a time. 17:48:51 *** lewymati [~lewymati@aeje144.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 17:48:54 <lewymati> hi there 17:48:57 *** George [~George@212.113.107.216] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:48:59 <Dr_Link> hello. 17:49:45 <lewymati> i have just installed openttd 17:49:49 <lewymati> its awesome game xD 17:51:34 *** Eddi|zuHause2 [~johekr@p54B77DE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:52:10 *** George [~George@212.113.107.216] has joined #openttd 17:52:22 *** Eddi|zuHause2 [~johekr@p54B77DE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 17:55:18 <svippy> How often does the Max loan increase? 17:55:47 <Rubidium> you want the correct answer or the lame answer? 17:55:59 <svippy> Correct. 17:56:57 <Eddi|zuHause2> every time the inflation of the initial loan increases by the minimum loan step 17:57:24 <svippy> O_o duh! 17:59:03 <Rubidium> svippy: floor(((initial_interest / 100 + 1)^(2050-1920)*initial_loan - initial_loan) / 50000) 17:59:33 <Rubidium> where initial_interest is 2, 3 or 4 18:00:04 <Rubidium> s/initial_loan/max_loan/ 18:00:24 <Rubidium> and max_loan between 50000 and 500000 (both inclusive) in intervals of 50000 18:00:54 <Rubidium> oh.. s/2050/2090/ 18:01:12 <Rubidium> the lame answer would've been: during the first 170 years 18:02:14 <petern> that would be lame 18:02:28 <petern> as the question was how often... 18:03:15 <Eddi|zuHause2> 42. 18:05:58 *** George [~George@212.113.107.216] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:07:18 *** Eddi|zuHause2 [~johekr@p54B77DE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:07:33 *** Eddi|zuHause2 [~johekr@p54B77DE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 18:08:07 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause 18:09:32 *** George [~George@212.113.107.216] has joined #openttd 18:13:38 <Rubidium> so between about 25 and 8000 times 18:14:01 <frosch123> or 0 18:14:19 <Rubidium> frosch123: in which case? 18:14:26 <Eddi|zuHause> inflation off :p 18:14:33 <frosch123> :p 18:15:05 <Rubidium> then it increase 1 from 0 ;) 18:15:12 <Rubidium> then it increase once from 0 ;) 18:16:00 <Eddi|zuHause> err... but not during times where the user can interact 18:18:34 *** George [~George@212.113.107.216] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:18:49 <dihedral> increased :-P 18:19:05 *** ecke [~ecke@213.195.202.130] has joined #openttd 18:21:52 *** George [~George@212.113.107.216] has joined #openttd 18:24:56 *** George [~George@212.113.107.216] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:27:17 <dihedral> hehe - updated my move clients patch 18:28:05 *** George [~George@212.113.107.216] has joined #openttd 18:31:08 <svippy> Rubidium: Why can't trains gain momentum when they are going downhill? 18:31:45 <Rubidium> cause you disable realistic acceleration? 18:31:47 *** George [~George@212.113.107.216] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:31:54 <Eddi|zuHause> because the physics engine sucks 18:31:54 <svippy> No no. 18:32:07 <svippy> I mean, why can't it go faster than its max speed down hills? 18:32:13 <mrfrenzy> there is a max speed, if that is rached they will break 18:32:21 <Eddi|zuHause> because the max speed is where the engine falls apart 18:32:22 <svippy> Instantly? 18:32:23 <mrfrenzy> otherwise bearings would overheat and they would derail 18:32:36 <svippy> Well, it should be a feature with a risk combined with it. 18:32:38 <Aali> there was a patch a while back that completely removed the concept of max speeds 18:32:50 <Rubidium> svippy: they actually get a small speed advantage when going down hill 18:32:59 <Eddi|zuHause> and it was rejected, because it both hurts realism and gameplay 18:33:09 <Aali> indeed 18:33:38 <mrfrenzy> that would be something, trains with infinite speed 18:33:54 <Eddi|zuHause> there are more things that limit train speed than weight and power 18:34:00 <Aali> it was fun to toy around with, but for real games? wouldn't want that 18:34:44 *** George [~George@212.113.107.216] has joined #openttd 18:34:59 <Aali> you could, in theory, make a long line of slow steamers break the sound barrier 18:35:04 <Aali> which is just absurd 18:35:48 <svippy> o_O 18:36:01 <svippy> Why would you play a game where there is no limits? Isn't the entire point of a game, the limitations? 18:40:24 *** Purno_ [~Purno@5350931D.cable.casema.nl] has joined #openttd 18:40:25 *** Purno [~Purno@5350931D.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:41:36 *** George [~George@212.113.107.216] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:45:27 *** sulai [~Miranda@p5B2B45BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 18:45:28 *** George [~George@212.113.107.216] has joined #openttd 18:50:42 *** George [~George@212.113.107.216] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:53:23 *** George [~George@212.113.107.216] has joined #openttd 18:56:39 *** stillunknown [~stillunkn@82-136-225-75.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:11:33 *** Dr_Jekyll [Dr_Jekyll@p57B0E05C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 19:12:17 <petern> trains can't go faster downhill because the brakes are activated to prevent it! :D 19:19:19 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77DE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:19:33 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77DE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 19:28:53 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@94-224-31-113.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 19:32:32 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77DE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:32:57 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77DE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 19:43:51 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77DE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:44:10 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77DE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 19:50:39 *** Yeggstry [~mind@cpc1-rdng14-0-0-cust946.winn.cable.ntl.com] has joined #openttd 19:51:47 *** elmex_ [~elmex@e180078222.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd 19:53:26 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77DE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:53:48 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77DE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 19:57:35 *** elmex [~elmex@e180069156.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:57:36 *** elmex_ is now known as elmex 20:10:28 *** benjamingoodger [~ben@host81-153-83-31.range81-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 20:23:19 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77DE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:23:54 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77DE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 20:26:28 *** Burty [burty@92.18.174.178] has joined #openttd 20:27:01 *** Burty [burty@92.18.174.178] has quit [] 20:35:15 *** trita [~a@ip82-139-118-117.lijbrandt.net] has joined #openttd 20:35:21 *** trita is now known as energetic 20:35:28 *** energetic is now known as ruudjah 20:35:33 *** ruudjah is now known as Ruudjah 20:35:40 <Ruudjah> Hi :) 20:35:50 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77DE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:36:17 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77DE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 20:38:29 *** Dred_furst` [~Dred_furs@user-5440c442.wfd78a.dsl.pol.co.uk] has joined #openttd 20:44:28 *** Dred_furst [~Dred_furs@user-5440c442.wfd78a.dsl.pol.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:44:49 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77DE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:45:08 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77DE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 20:49:12 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@94-224-31-113.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 20:51:33 *** Dred_furst` [~Dred_furs@user-5440c442.wfd78a.dsl.pol.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:52:06 *** Dred_furst [~Dred_furs@user-5440c442.wfd78a.dsl.pol.co.uk] has joined #openttd 20:52:08 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1C455.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:56:39 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77DE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:57:01 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77DE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 20:57:17 *** TrueBrain [truebrain@openttd.org] has joined #openttd 20:57:18 *** sigmund [~sigmund@91.80-202-245.nextgentel.com] has joined #openttd 20:57:23 <TrueBrain> *burp* 20:58:28 <benjamingoodger> the pinnacle of sophistication in this evening's #openttd has been reached... 20:58:49 <Sionide> yes, it's all down-hill from here on in 20:59:04 *** sigmund_ [~sigmund@91.80-202-245.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:59:16 <TrueBrain> yeah, Ruudjah has that effect 20:59:35 <Ruudjah> uh oh 20:59:42 <Ruudjah> i though 20:59:42 <TrueBrain> just kidding Ruudjah :) 20:59:43 <Ruudjah> t 20:59:51 <Ruudjah> I will give it some more sphistication 20:59:58 <TrueBrain> go ahead :) 21:00:12 <Ruudjah> by having a discussion about the competition mechanics in openttd 21:00:31 <TrueBrain> there is none, so that is a short conversation :) 21:00:31 <Ruudjah> I am Energetic at Kurt's Hard goal 21:00:45 <Sionide> is there anything really juicy in the latest nightly builds i should check out? 21:00:51 <Ruudjah> I just started a new topic on the problems forum 21:00:57 <Sionide> haven't updated my svn for aaaages.. 21:01:11 <Ruudjah> I am unable to code/write patches for openttd 21:01:21 <Sionide> r12993 by the looks of it :s 21:01:28 <Ruudjah> and I want, in the name of Kurts community, to have a few things fixed in the openttd client 21:02:05 <Ruudjah> So I am doing everything in my abilities to make this happen.... 21:02:35 *** Ruudjah is now known as Ruudjah|energeti 21:02:38 *** Ruudjah|energeti is now known as Ruudjah|energetic 21:03:54 <Ruudjah|energetic> A lot of people are limited/offended by the way competition is handled in openttd. Renewing trains to get the most rssource is the most important thing 21:04:54 *** TinoM [~Tino@i59F5C948.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 21:04:55 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77DE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:05:21 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77DE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 21:06:27 <Ruudjah|energetic> most games end up in boring train engine replacement, which kills the gameplay in openttd. Which I (and a whole lot of other players) think is a bad thing... 21:07:36 <Eddi|zuHause> i rarely replace engines... wagonspeedlimits makes that much less important... 21:07:47 <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't play "competitively" either 21:07:59 <Eddi|zuHause> and currently, i don't play at all 21:08:34 <Ruudjah|energetic> oh well 21:08:51 <Ruudjah|energetic> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=41083 21:09:55 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77DE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:10:13 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77DE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 21:10:56 *** Nite_Owl [~Nite_Owl@c-76-109-60-185.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 21:11:11 <Nite_Owl> Hello all 21:11:31 <SmatZ> hello 21:11:52 <Nite_Owl> Hello Smatz 21:12:16 <Eddi|zuHause> someone still did not learn the joys of the <tab> key? 21:12:36 <SmatZ> it's more "personal" to type the nick in hand ;) 21:13:15 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah... right... sure... 21:13:24 <Ruudjah|energetic> Nite_owl==Nite? 21:13:31 <Eddi|zuHause> you're in IRC because it's so personal 21:14:11 *** lewymati [~lewymati@aeje144.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [] 21:15:04 *** Nite [~chatzilla@chello084114177252.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #openttd 21:15:17 <Nite_Owl> Nite vs. Night is a long story 21:15:37 <Ruudjah|energetic> whats the short version? 21:15:52 <Nite_Owl> Oops - nick infringement 21:16:03 <Nite> sry 21:16:13 <Nite> i always use this nick 21:16:47 <Nite_Owl> Not a problem - just my sad attempts at humor 21:16:47 <Nite> anyone into station rating debate here? 21:17:00 <Nite> truly sad ;) 21:17:19 <Ruudjah|energetic> yes, i'm into it ;) 21:18:22 <Nite> i finally connected 21:18:38 <Nite> anyone seemingly intrested in it? 21:18:55 <Nite> (no not that imn connected;) ) 21:19:55 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77DE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:20:22 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77DE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 21:20:30 <Ruudjah|energetic> i tried at clanmega 21:20:30 <Nite> wow so much chat here i cant folow reading ... 21:20:47 <Ruudjah|energetic> but my computer almost continuously stuttered 21:20:55 <Ruudjah|energetic> game was umplayable 21:21:02 <Nite> whats clanmega? 21:21:15 <Ruudjah|energetic> the gaming day organizer clan 21:21:23 <Nite> ic 21:21:45 <Nite> in what form do you "try there" ? 21:22:00 <Ruudjah|energetic> in the form of 21:22:25 <Ruudjah|energetic> logging in with a core2duo 3GB ram SSD pc with 100Mbit internet connection straight on AMSIX 21:22:45 <Nite> i also dont know what amsix is 21:22:57 <Ruudjah|energetic> biggest internet hub in the world 21:23:01 <Rubidium> ix = internet exchange and ams is the location 21:23:23 <Nite> and why couldnt your pc handle it? 21:23:36 <Ruudjah|energetic> good questoin 21:23:39 <Nite> i dont get the system at all 21:23:52 <Ruudjah|energetic> what system 21:24:15 <Rubidium> performance depends on the os, video card driver and some settings 21:24:16 <Nite> that the gameday uses 21:24:35 <Rubidium> disabling full detail, animation and not using 32 bpp should result in quite a speedup 21:24:39 <Nite> which game you tried to play there? 21:24:41 <Rubidium> and so does not zooming out 21:24:59 <SmatZ> + making trees (and buildings) invisible 21:25:42 <Nite> i dont get at all how this gameday thing works .. wbsite? 21:26:20 <Ruudjah|energetic> clanmega.warlink.eu 21:27:06 <Nite> found 21:27:16 <Nite> ok its an ottdserver ... 21:27:28 <Nite> how could i possibly not thinkof this 21:27:37 <Ruudjah|energetic> interesting thing, also for kurt, is the 11 player limit is removed 21:27:41 *** mortal [~mortal@0x573a3da2.odnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:27:53 <Nite> and huge maps 21:27:58 <Ruudjah|energetic> yes 21:28:18 <Ruudjah|energetic> it'd be cool to have, say, 16 companies at 512x512 maps 21:28:25 <planetmaker> good evening 21:28:26 <Nite> is it passworded? 21:28:30 <Ruudjah|energetic> no 21:28:31 <Ruudjah|energetic> hi 21:28:46 <planetmaker> May OpenTTD crash, if it cannot find grfs which are required by a savegame? 21:28:47 <Nite> the more the better 21:29:00 <Nite> no it dont crashes 21:29:01 <planetmaker> Or should it say so and not load it? 21:29:02 <glx> planetmaker: it should just fail to load 21:29:05 <Nite> but also dont plays 21:29:18 <planetmaker> glx: then I have a new bug report for you at flyspray :) 21:29:32 <SmatZ> planetmaker: it may crash :( 21:29:38 <Rubidium> planetmaker: glx is talking about grfs, you specifically meant newgrfs 21:29:42 <Ruudjah|energetic> Does 0.6.3 standard trunk support servers with >11 players? 21:29:51 <planetmaker> oh... sorry. 21:30:04 <planetmaker> Then you can delete that flyspray entry, I guess. 21:30:22 <planetmaker> And we should always say which version of the grfpack is required for a savegame... 21:30:24 <glx> Ruudjah|energetic: no 21:31:34 <Nite> i search for the clanmega newgrfs as well - package? 21:31:51 <Ruudjah|energetic> just read the forum 21:31:56 <Ruudjah|energetic> of clanmega 21:32:12 <Ruudjah|energetic> it is quite hard to get it setup all 21:32:19 <Ruudjah|energetic> patch/grf/etc 21:37:10 <planetmaker> Ruudjah|energetic: so... ? You say it's difficult to provide high quality service? Yes, sure... 21:38:52 <Rubidium> ofcourse... the easier way to set up many client games without patches is providing a proper way to increase the number of clients instead of arbitrarily increasing some constant, that'll just be a) not enough and b) memory for everyone not playing many client games 21:40:45 <Ruudjah|energetic> planetmaker, I am not sure what you mean? 21:42:13 <planetmaker> Ruudjah|energetic: I'm not sure what you're dis-satisfied with... too few clients per game? Too few companies? Difficulties to patch the game to provide that? ... Any, some or all of those? 21:44:05 <yorick> Nite: it's just openttdcoop grfs 21:44:17 <Nite> i figuered out 21:44:31 <Nite> thx 21:44:53 <Ruudjah|energetic> no, just thining about the possibility to have more clients in games 21:44:56 <Ruudjah|energetic> *thinking* 21:45:20 <Ruudjah|energetic> I am dissatisified by nothing 21:46:34 <Ruudjah|energetic> Just looking for ways to make it more interesting/more phun/etc 21:46:50 <Ruudjah|energetic> I do however recognize the are some limitations into heavy competition 21:47:33 <Nite> is the gameday runing now? i read it was a fail ... 21:47:46 <Ruudjah|energetic> and finding ways to remove those limitations 21:47:52 <Ruudjah|energetic> it says retry now 21:48:12 <Ruudjah|energetic> "(new try)" 21:49:04 <yorick> nite: just join :) 21:50:14 <Nite> sry but clanmega website is realy cryptic about the so caleld patch 21:50:58 <Nite> where to dl the patch end where to put it ??? 21:51:39 <Nite> im sure ottd603 dont recognized the patch in my documents 21:51:50 <yorick> ... 21:52:29 <Ruudjah|energetic> download, unpack 21:52:40 <Ruudjah|energetic> mvoe transport tycoon files to data folder 21:52:49 <Ruudjah|energetic> move grf files to data folder 21:52:50 <Ruudjah|energetic> run 21:53:25 <Nite> i ahve the grfs and ottd 603 running 21:53:48 <Nite> where IS the patch? 21:54:02 <Nite> and to what folder does it haev to go? 21:54:09 <Nite> or is it instaleld? 21:55:09 <Nite> i also dont have a clue what the "sample cat" is 21:55:36 <Nite> and i never needed eny ottd disk to play since ages 21:55:58 <Nite> i guess most palyers dont posses sthis disc. 21:56:00 <yorick> nite: patch is at tt-forums :) 21:56:04 <Nite> cryptic! 21:57:24 <yorick> the gaming day topic 21:57:29 <yorick> one of the last posts 21:59:19 <Nite> "the patch that yorick posted " is this the filename ? *LOL* 21:59:36 <Ruudjah|energetic> have you been to clanmega.warlink.eu? 21:59:57 <Ruudjah|energetic> but, Nite, I share your frustrations about it 22:00:06 <Ruudjah|energetic> I costed me 45 minutes to get in running too 22:00:45 <Nite> i guess it must be the "openttd-custom-r14689-megaGD1-MINGW.zip" 22:01:02 <Nite> right? 22:01:13 <yorick> on windows, yes 22:03:08 <Nite> also i know how to unzip files since the 80's 22:03:21 <Nite> but where to put it actually? 22:03:51 <Eddi|zuHause> wherever your openttd.exe is 22:04:26 <Nite> ok thx 22:04:31 <yorick> I'd put it somewhere else 22:04:48 <Nite> guess you could have made that clear in a singel sentence 22:05:29 <Nite> download *filename* unzip and put it in *foldername* 22:06:20 <Nite> "somewhere else" so ottd scans your whole pc for the patch file right? 22:06:29 <Nite> why does this seem so strange to me 22:06:32 <Nite_Owl> Make a copy of your entire OpenTTD folder and then overwrite the .exe into the copy and run it from there 22:07:04 <Nite> THX i almost did overwrite my original .... 22:07:17 *** stillunknown [~stillunkn@82-136-225-75.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd 22:07:32 <Rubidium> Nite: I suggest you read OpenTTD's manual (wiki.openttd.org) and then especially http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/index.php/Installation_FAQ and http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/index.php/FAQ_OpenTTD_versions 22:08:19 <Eddi|zuHause> who in his right mind puts a patch on an installed version without backing up? 22:08:20 <Nite> when you see wahts in the zip its quite logical 22:08:50 <Nite> it could have been a pathc that just adds additional files ... 22:09:08 <Nite> but right i havent used ottd pathces so far 22:11:11 <Nite> yust stable versions 22:12:06 <Nite> anyway i got it now - guess i need some schnaps now 22:14:39 *** Yexo [~Yexo@32-88-ftth.onsneteindhoven.nl] has quit [Quit: Ik ga weg] 22:18:59 *** Brianetta [~brian@client-82-20-12-90.brhm.adsl.virgin.net] has joined #openttd 22:20:21 *** yorick [~Yorick@s55924da0.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Quit: Poef!] 22:20:40 <Wolf01> 'night z_z 22:20:52 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host105-233-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 22:22:51 <Ruudjah|energetic> i wonder why a faq is still needed for software (read: openttd) 22:23:24 *** Nite_Owl is now known as Barney_Frank 22:24:01 *** Barney_Frank is now known as Nite_Owl 22:24:16 <Ruudjah|energetic> *for software installation* 22:25:05 <Rubidium> Ruudjah|energetic: there's no need for a FAQ as long as you keep to stable releases with installers 22:25:25 <Rubidium> once you want something that doesn't contain an installer it's up to you to do the installing 22:25:36 <Rubidium> and lots of people apparantly can't figure that out on their own 22:26:07 <Rubidium> this results in people frequently asking (the same) questions about the installation of whatever they want to play 22:27:00 <Rubidium> furthermore languages are ambiguous like hell 22:27:14 <Rubidium> even hell is an ambiguous word as it can have many meanings 22:27:20 <Nite_Owl> Winzip Heathens 22:27:43 <Ruudjah|energetic> lol 22:27:47 <Rubidium> and then people start to use words for which other people have another assumption on the meaning of said word 22:28:03 <TrueBrain> repeat after me ... yes repeat after me .. here we go: 22:28:05 <TrueBrain> *burp* 22:28:05 <Rubidium> like e.g. patch 22:28:12 <Rubidium> *buuuuuuuuuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrp* 22:28:30 <Ruudjah|energetic> burp? 22:28:30 <Rubidium> oh noes... now it's bleeding 22:29:22 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fe3e8.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:29:36 <Ruudjah|energetic> eg, autogrf downloader, autoupdater, version installer & version manager, etc implementation would make installfaq obsolete? 22:29:53 * benjamingoodger slaps TrueBrain a bit with a packet of antacid tablets 22:30:02 <Rubidium> Ruudjah|energetic: really? 22:30:47 <Rubidium> if I make a special version you still need that version of the game in a way that works for you 22:31:15 <Rubidium> simply downloading my binary will not work... when you're not running my OS 22:31:32 * TrueBrain hacks Rubidium's computer 22:31:37 <Ruudjah|energetic> openttd version manager? openttd.exe shows list of installed versions, then user clicks on a version 22:31:38 <Rubidium> autoupdate... to what version? What if it's an old binary? 22:32:03 <Rubidium> then it'd need to recreate that binary in some way 22:32:16 <Ruudjah|energetic> not sure if you being sarcastic right now 22:32:19 <Rubidium> that'd mean bootstrapping a compiler that compile that version and then building openttd for that version 22:32:42 <Rubidium> which would mean you need a compiler that can the compiler installed on your computer 22:32:51 <Ruudjah|energetic> no 22:32:54 *** helb [~helb@84.244.90.52] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:33:01 <benjamingoodger> and all the same versions of the various header files and such. 22:33:10 <benjamingoodger> I think 22:33:22 <Ruudjah|energetic> i mean from a user perspective 22:33:23 *** Dred_furst [~Dred_furs@user-5440c442.wfd78a.dsl.pol.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:33:31 <Ruudjah|energetic> from a dee perspective, u would probably be right 22:33:35 <Rubidium> then there's the legal issues regarding downloading grfs 22:33:48 <Ruudjah|energetic> i have about 12 folders with different ottd version installed on my prgfiles dir 22:34:23 <Ruudjah|energetic> whats the difference i downloading grfs with openttd or opera or firefox or...? 22:34:28 <Ruudjah|energetic> *in* 22:34:28 <benjamingoodger> the facts do not magically adjust to your perspective 22:35:17 <benjamingoodger> users can't run windows binaries on a linux system* any more easily than developers 22:35:20 <Rubidium> openttd would need to download them from a central server as there's no way we can make openttd smart enough to google for a specific newgrf 22:35:34 <Rubidium> and downloading from a central server means redistributing 22:35:51 <Rubidium> and redistributing is forbidden, by license, for a number of NewGRFs 22:35:51 <benjamingoodger> not necessarily, it just needs to download a list of URLs from the central server. 22:36:03 <Ruudjah|energetic> xctly 22:36:12 <TrueBrain> omg ... how often does the discussion happen here? 22:36:17 <TrueBrain> the = this 22:36:20 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: every few hours 22:36:31 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: you want me to script the replies in DorpsGek? :p 22:37:14 <Ruudjah|energetic> so if i build/start a project called winottdversionmanager, i would violate exactly what legal aspects if i incorporate a list of grfs? 22:37:14 <TrueBrain> Osai: erlang is indeed a nice language (still ahven't wrote anything with it, but still ;)) 22:37:21 *** Eddi|zuHause2 [~johekr@p54B74E11.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 22:38:17 <Rubidium> Ruudjah|energetic: things like copyright infringement or whatever it's called under the Berne convention 22:38:48 <Ruudjah|energetic> but, then i would infringe copyrights right now too. Since i download the grfs using a software program called opera 22:39:07 <benjamingoodger> Rubidium: actually, he's now proposing not to redistribute things, but instead to provide a list of places where things are originally distributed from 22:39:43 <Nite> maybee they should drop some DRM on their pixeltrain sprites. 22:39:47 <Rubidium> hmm... there we go with ambiguous... what does 'list of grfs' mean? 22:40:06 <TrueBrain> if they still have to open a browser to a HTML which shows the license, it is fine 22:40:11 <Osai> TrueBrain: huh? 22:40:14 <benjamingoodger> I don't think that's ambiguous at all, actually 22:40:25 <TrueBrain> Osai: erlang ... yes? 22:40:32 <TrueBrain> Osai: it is nice 22:40:34 <Osai> yea 22:40:34 <TrueBrain> :p 22:40:37 <Nite> whats teh point of copyrighting newgrfs 22:40:41 <Osai> how comes you highlighted my name here :D 22:40:48 <TrueBrain> Osai: channel I had open :p 22:40:55 <Osai> okay 22:41:04 <Osai> it really is 22:41:24 <Ruudjah|energetic> TrueBrain: why is the browser important? 22:41:27 <benjamingoodger> TrueBrain: the license could just as easily be incorporated into the list of URLs for grfs, and then shown by OTTD... thus not defeating the point 22:41:40 <Osai> it would be cool for handling openttds masterserver too 22:41:41 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: not the browser, the 'HTML which shows the license' part 22:41:43 <benjamingoodger> because if you have to open a browser in any case, you might as well give up 22:41:48 <Rubidium> Nite: I suggest you read some legal FAQs; almost everything is copyrighted (except government generated stuff) (for the exact definition: see a lawyer) 22:41:58 <benjamingoodger> again, HTML is not special in copyright law 22:42:08 <TrueBrain> LOL! 22:42:10 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77DE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:42:14 <TrueBrain> okay, Rubidium, I give up on this already :) 22:42:14 <Ruudjah|energetic> why is html needed to read a license? 22:42:20 <Osai> and if needed you can add new servers to the masterserver system quite easily 22:42:22 <TrueBrain> I wish you good luck with the rest of the conversation ;) 22:42:32 <Ruudjah|energetic> ok, i wont tire you guys up 22:42:35 <benjamingoodger> Rubidium: the government of the UK makes a large profit from copyrighting its output 22:42:41 <Nite> and because almost everythingis copyrighted newgrfs must be too .. ic 22:42:54 <Ruudjah|energetic> but please, one more question: what are you guys afraid off? 22:42:56 <TrueBrain> Osai: hehe, it is an idea .. ;) 22:43:05 <benjamingoodger> nite: everything is copyrighted by default... 22:43:06 <Osai> we might do that next year :D 22:43:20 <Ruudjah|energetic> angry grf creators? 22:43:21 <TrueBrain> hehe 22:43:24 <TrueBrain> that for sure :) 22:43:27 <Rubidium> Nite: no, because you cannot NOT copyright it (double negative, I know; again... see a lawyer) 22:43:34 <Ruudjah|energetic> some companies sueing the ottd project? 22:43:39 <Nite> so when i make a pic of my cats arse and send it to the inet its not compyrightet by default 22:43:42 <Osai> the database system (mnesia) is a bit tricky IMHO 22:43:46 <Nite> im to dumb for this iguess 22:43:49 <benjamingoodger> nite: yes, it is 22:43:55 <benjamingoodger> unless you place it in the public domain. 22:44:05 <TrueBrain> and Public Domain only exists in USA :p 22:44:16 <benjamingoodger> no, no it does not 22:44:23 <Ruudjah|energetic> what would happen if you ignore certain aspects of copyright? the eiffel tower would fall down? 22:44:40 *** lolman [~john@cpc3-leds2-0-0-cust846.leed.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:44:58 <Ruudjah|energetic> what are you guys afraid of? 22:45:04 <Nite> so newgraf are no public domain nor are they gnu? 22:45:16 <benjamingoodger> I think some are GPL 22:45:28 <Ruudjah|energetic> has there been any threat against ottd project rgarding gpl/legalstuff 22:45:29 <Ruudjah|energetic> ? 22:45:35 <benjamingoodger> Ruudjah|energetic: the project would grind to a halt as its ISPs baulked under takedown notices from copyright holders, and a small number of the team might be subjected to lawsuit or imprisonment 22:45:40 <Rubidium> just for you to know... Linux, OpenTTD, GIMP, ... find more GPLed projects are all copyrighted 22:46:00 <Nite> and adding some txt where there is stated that they are gpl gnu whatever would be enough as i understand 22:46:07 *** mortal [~mortal@0x573a3da2.odnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd 22:46:19 <benjamingoodger> nite: yep 22:46:35 <Rubidium> Nite: saying something is licensed under GPL doesn't remove the copyright; it only licenses you to do specific things 22:46:36 <Nite> looks like not yep 22:47:14 <benjamingoodger> you have to say "this is placed in the public domain" etc. to remove the copyright 22:47:17 <planetmaker> Nite: there's a difference between "allowed to do anything" and "having copyright of" 22:47:32 <Ruudjah|energetic> what copyright holders would sent notices? grf creators? 22:47:37 <planetmaker> benjamingoodger: that won't work either. It will just allow anyone to use it for any purpose 22:47:42 *** Purno_ [~Purno@5350931D.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:47:45 <Ruudjah|energetic> only thing i can imagine is chris sawyer 22:47:50 <planetmaker> You simply cannot give away copyright. It's granted. 22:47:53 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: www.tt-forums.net, search for your idea ... read the replies of NewGRF authors .. I rest my case :) 22:47:56 <Nite> yeah yust copy that notices everywhere you can 22:48:04 <Ruudjah|energetic> but that thing is managed great, by having refer to install dir when installing ottd 22:48:06 <benjamingoodger> Ruudjah|energetic: the newgrf artists 22:48:10 <svippy> Uh, the presence of benjamingoodger reminds me I should continue on my novel. Thank you. 22:48:20 <Rubidium> and what we are "afraid" of is the following: some of the important NewGRF authors will remove all compatability for OpenTTD from their newgrfs, effectively making it impossible to use them in OpenTTD. 22:48:21 <benjamingoodger> hi! :) 22:48:24 <Nite> maybee i should stop typing because i dont get the point at all. 22:48:38 <benjamingoodger> no, that means you should _continue_ typing 22:48:52 <Ruudjah|energetic> okay, that makes some clear. 22:48:54 <svippy> Oh. 22:48:56 * svippy types. 22:49:04 <svippy> Should I type something meaningful? 22:49:09 <benjamingoodger> not you, svippy ¬.¬ 22:49:10 <Nite> so its still the newgrf creators who dont like their work to be free ? 22:49:14 <benjamingoodger> type your novel. :P 22:49:19 <svippy> Oh right. 22:49:23 <svippy> You don't do that over IRC. 22:49:27 <benjamingoodger> nite: yeah 22:49:27 <Ruudjah|energetic> you guys think that when i create some project to remove the issue, they would send my isp a takedown notice? 22:49:28 <svippy> Unless it is one of those OpenNovels. 22:49:41 <benjamingoodger> oh 22:49:42 <benjamingoodger> no 22:49:48 <benjamingoodger> type your novel into a word-processor 22:49:48 <Rubidium> Nite: it's the NewGRF creators that do not like to get bugreports about old and archaic NewGRFs that are still swarming the automatic downloading system 22:50:17 <Nite> and taht was my inital questions - why do the newgf authors dont want the newgrfs to be free? 22:50:17 <Ruudjah|energetic> do grf pngs have version metadata? 22:50:23 <benjamingoodger> ...except, of course, that the system Ruudjah|energetic is actually proposing does not involve distributing anything 22:51:08 <benjamingoodger> nite: they want to retain proprietary control over what is done with it, I suppose, and to get more recognition for it... 22:51:34 <TrueBrain> there are also a few people who want their name in the source code :) Lucky enough, we refuse that .. 22:51:53 <Ruudjah|energetic> there is no credits page? 22:51:57 <Nite> ok - at first it sounded tome as everything is copyrighted by officials automatically ... 22:51:58 <Ruudjah|energetic> i mean window of openttd 22:52:01 <TrueBrain> 'svn log' :) 22:52:02 <benjamingoodger> so copyright is ceded to the project? 22:52:10 <benjamingoodger> nite: that is correct 22:52:36 <Sacro> benjamingoodger: I doubt that 22:52:51 <Nite> i doubt that too 22:52:55 <Rubidium> Ruudjah|energetic: there's no such thing as grf pngs 22:52:59 <benjamingoodger> everything is copyrighted by its own existence, and then the creator grants rights 22:53:08 <benjamingoodger> the berne convention is quite clear on this 22:53:12 <planetmaker> exactly, benjamingoodger 22:53:13 <Nite> you cant copyright any data that flows through the net 22:53:23 <benjamingoodger> nite: yes, you can 22:53:34 <benjamingoodger> I can copyright this sentence, for instance 22:53:35 <planetmaker> Nite: nothing needs being copyrighted. 22:53:46 <benjamingoodger> indeed, by typing it, I copyrighted it 22:53:49 <Nite> ok i see the creator has copyright - not hte officials 22:53:57 <TrueBrain> LOL! I wonder if that holds up in court ... 22:53:57 <planetmaker> benjamingoodger: hardly ;) But not for the reason of non-existance of copyright. 22:54:01 <TrueBrain> *burp* 22:54:03 <TrueBrain> nobody can say it! 22:54:06 <TrueBrain> it is copyrighted to me! 22:54:07 <planetmaker> Just not too ingenious ;) 22:54:08 <TrueBrain> MWHAHAHAHAHAHA 22:54:11 <benjamingoodger> --- and by sending it to you, obviously, I granted you the right to copy it and read it and such 22:54:12 <Nite> until he states different things 22:54:39 <petern> "obviously" 22:54:40 <benjamingoodger> but that's automatic, due to the terms of use of Humanity 22:55:00 <TrueBrain> oh, stupid of us ... we forgot about the terms of use of Humanity .. 22:55:04 <TrueBrain> how could we forget about that .. 22:55:06 <benjamingoodger> :) 22:55:12 <TrueBrain> I feel so stupid now .. 22:55:15 <TrueBrain> wait ... I am not the one being stupid here 22:55:16 <planetmaker> general rule: you may assume nothing. Everything you want to do has to be explicitly granted to you by the author / artist 22:55:16 <TrueBrain> hmm .. 22:55:26 <Ruudjah|energetic> not sure where the sarcastic/negative undertone is coming from 22:55:42 <Ruudjah|energetic> i guess u guys are very tired about this shippering between users and grf creators 22:55:44 <benjamingoodger> well, actually, you are, TrueBrain, because you have failed utterly to detect a metaphor 22:55:57 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: this discussion happens once or twice a month ;) 22:55:58 <Nite> terms of humanity ? its yust about sending some piles of pixels across the net that should look like vehicles 22:56:16 <Nite> *too wierd* 22:56:20 <planetmaker> Nite: a newgrf is not just an image. And even if so - it wouldn't matter. 22:56:28 <Nite> true 22:56:35 <benjamingoodger> it qualifies as an artwork... 22:56:52 <planetmaker> or as programming. Matter of perspective ;) 22:57:23 <benjamingoodger> I think the pixels are the artwork part ¬_¬ 22:57:31 <Nite> well just do them good and paint their names im some kind of ppreview to rais their egos, maybee then it would be fine 22:57:31 <Ruudjah|energetic> so integrating winottdversionmanager into ottd project would still mean i would not violate any gpl? 22:58:19 <Rubidium> that depends on many aspects 22:58:43 <benjamingoodger> Ruudjah|energetic: so long as it does not actually involve distributing other people's copyrighted work without their permission, it is OK 22:58:54 <benjamingoodger> you're allowed to tell people where that work is. 22:59:01 <Ruudjah|energetic> "distribting".... 22:59:03 <Nite> projects hindered by selfishness... 22:59:13 <TrueBrain> Nite: aren't all good projects? :) 22:59:20 <Nite> many 22:59:22 <Eddi|zuHause2> <benjamingoodger> I can copyright this sentence, for instance <- no, for anything to be subject of copyright, it must involve a significant level of artistic creativity 22:59:28 <benjamingoodger> nite: that applies to most things 22:59:36 <Ruudjah|energetic> downloading would mean distributing? 22:59:50 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: automated, without showing a license, yes ;) 22:59:55 <planetmaker> download IS distribution 23:00:08 <benjamingoodger> *cough*bollocks*cough* 23:00:09 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: there is a tricky slope, and I doubt OpenTTD would want to assosiate itself with it, if it pisses off some artists ;) 23:00:16 <TrueBrain> benjamingoodger: you? Yes! 23:00:17 <Ruudjah|energetic> i never have read any license when downloading the grfpack from ottdcoop 23:00:24 <Nite> technicall it would be no problem at all ... thats sad 23:00:29 <planetmaker> Ruudjah|energetic: you should. 23:00:37 <planetmaker> You're not allowed to distribute it. 23:00:47 <petern> redistribute 23:00:53 <TrueBrain> lol @ petern :) 23:00:55 <benjamingoodger> if a software program downloads things, that does not mean that the program's creators are redistributing said things 23:00:58 <planetmaker> And many grf have their own license which we supply 23:01:01 <planetmaker> petern: yes. 23:01:12 <Nite> is there re-redestirbute 23:01:15 <Ruudjah|energetic> what exactly then is redistributing it...? downloading it and puttingit into some progam files dir is? 23:01:16 <Rubidium> Ruudjah|energetic: but then... ottdcoop's grfpack doesn't contain all NewGRFs... and... they have permission to distribute the NewGRFs under some strict rules 23:01:36 <Eddi|zuHause2> Ruudjah|energetic: no, putting it up for someone else to download 23:01:38 <planetmaker> Ruudjah|energetic: we're re-distributing the grfs. But distributing the whole pack :) 23:01:45 <planetmaker> *newgrfs 23:02:05 <Ruudjah|energetic> i will write my first blogpost about this stuff... this stuff is killing oss development 23:02:06 <planetmaker> what Rubidium sais :) 23:02:16 <benjamingoodger> Ruudjah|energetic: redistributing would be the OTTD people getting it from the original author, and then putting it on their own server to be downloaded by users of OTTD 23:02:18 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: not only that ;) 23:02:48 <Rubidium> jup... it's also used to sue dead people 23:02:52 <benjamingoodger> however, your proposal does not involve that, so it would not count as redistribution 23:02:59 <Eddi|zuHause2> Ruudjah|energetic: how is this "killing"? the game runs perfectly fine without newgrfs 23:03:08 <planetmaker> Unfortunately there's also a bunch of grf creators which have no understanding of copyright issues at all... 23:03:12 <Ruudjah|energetic> Rubidium and TrueBrain: reading the words "grf"and "installer" got u both shaking as hell.... while u even didnt knew what hell meant. 23:03:24 <benjamingoodger> 0.o 23:03:28 <Ruudjah|energetic> its an insane situation 23:03:41 <planetmaker> what's insane? 23:03:42 <Rubidium> oh... I know at least 4 definitions of hell, of which you most likely know 3 not 23:03:56 <planetmaker> :) 23:04:07 <Eddi|zuHause2> Ruudjah|energetic: so you mean nobody may create closed source programs which run on linux? 23:04:21 <Eddi|zuHause2> as this will kill linux development? 23:04:24 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause 23:04:27 <benjamingoodger> Eddi|zuHause2: it's strongly discouraged... 23:04:35 <planetmaker> bollocks 23:04:35 <Ruudjah|energetic> I meant exactly what i said 23:04:38 <petern> hell: realtime ottd 23:04:40 <benjamingoodger> "hell is being stuck in a room forever with your best friends" --- satre 23:04:50 <Ruudjah|energetic> lets make it a bit more specific 23:05:29 <Ruudjah|energetic> copyright issues hamper usable oss software development, as proven by this discussion about grfs in openttd 23:05:52 <benjamingoodger> ah, but they also assist it 23:05:52 <Rubidium> it isn't copyright... it's licenses 23:05:52 <svippy> Wait, what is hampering OSS development? 23:05:57 <benjamingoodger> svippy: selfishness 23:06:00 <svippy> And why are you saying "oss software"? 23:06:07 <Ruudjah|energetic> "usable oss software" 23:06:08 <benjamingoodger> svippy: foolishness 23:06:11 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: in my opinion, it is not the copyright in this case; the authors don't like such system; fine, we need them, so let it be like that 23:06:16 <svippy> That's like saying xfs filesystem or it technology. 23:06:22 <planetmaker> Ruudjah|energetic: they do not necessarily. 23:06:22 <Ruudjah|energetic> openttd works, if you want to take the effort to install all 23:06:28 <svippy> You just repeated what the last part of the acronym stood for. 23:06:35 <planetmaker> http://www.openttdcoop.org/wiki/GRF_Table_(Trunk) <-- you may want to look at this overview of licneses 23:06:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Ruudjah|energetic: oss development must fit into copyright, not the other way round 23:06:39 <planetmaker> *licenses 23:06:51 <Ruudjah|energetic> agreed. But for Ottd, it does, and therefore, because there is one case, it hampers oss software 23:06:53 <planetmaker> for newgrfs which we have. 23:06:54 <Eddi|zuHause> copyright is the basis of everything 23:07:03 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: overgeneralization, sure 23:07:10 <benjamingoodger> that's an interesting statement, eddi... 23:07:10 <svippy> <Ruudjah|energetic> agreed. But for Ottd, it does, and therefore, because there is one case, it hampers oss software << So because of OTTD, people are not creating OSS. 23:07:13 <svippy> Makes sense. 23:07:22 <Ruudjah|energetic> I would not recommend ottd to a gamer friend of mine, since of installation usability issues 23:07:24 <svippy> btw, Ruudjah|energetic, the last S in OSS stands for "software". 23:07:38 <Ruudjah|energetic> swippy, please stop trolling my text 23:07:49 <svippy> No, I am pointing out your flaws. 23:07:55 <svippy> And my nick is spelt with a 'v'. 23:07:59 <Eddi|zuHause> open source is a way to specifically give up rights that are otherwise subject of copyright law 23:08:00 <Nite> copyright is a restriction. 23:08:03 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: svippy does make a point :) Your statement is heavily overstated 23:08:05 <benjamingoodger> Ruudjah|energetic: that was a legitimate thing to say. you're making a fool of yourself 23:08:07 <planetmaker> the vast majority of newgrfs may be freely used, most even re-distributed, most not modified, though 23:08:30 <Eddi|zuHause> these rights must be given up by the copyright holder 23:08:37 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: btw, I always votes for creating a GRF system which forces people to release their grf under an open license; to avoid such things 23:08:38 <Rubidium> Nite: not having copyright is a MUCH bigger restriction for development, as R&D wouldn't be worth the effort; better steal the competitors ideas 23:08:39 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what licenses are for 23:08:43 <TrueBrain> but the truth is slightly different :) 23:09:07 <Ruudjah|energetic> I am amazed of the frustration that comes loose just by textualizing some observing 23:09:13 <Nite> why not only take the ones who are free ... 23:09:15 <svippy> Indeed, Rubidium, that's why you need a licence that gives you freedom and your users freedom. 23:09:15 <TrueBrain> I am already very very happy OpenGFX fixed their license issues :) 23:09:33 <svippy> Ruudjah|energetic: You did not intend for us to react to your comment? 23:09:34 <planetmaker> hehe. yes. Was a difficult birth to that 23:09:38 <svippy> Then why did you open your mouth? 23:09:40 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: people want their credit ..... people really think that highly over theirselves :) 23:09:46 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1C455.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 23:09:57 <benjamingoodger> svippy: it actually restricts the user's freedom quite a lot, for the good of the software... see "anti-tivo angry-revenge clause" :) 23:10:07 <planetmaker> being credited is fine. It's one source of motivation. Not the least IMO 23:10:20 <svippy> What is wrong with credit, benjamingoodger? 23:10:27 <svippy> You need people motivated to create the software. 23:10:29 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: it is their right to demand "appropriate payment". that's what it says in the copyright (at least the german version) 23:10:32 <Ruudjah|energetic> svippy, you constantly take my remarks out of context 23:10:35 <benjamingoodger> svippy: wrong person 23:10:37 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: well, in fact it is very logic .. say you created some amazing NewGRF .. it would be nice if you can put that on your CV for a next job; so you want to give it a nice license .. 23:10:48 <Ruudjah|energetic> yes 23:10:51 <svippy> If anything, the developer has as much right to the software as the user, if not more, benjamingoodger. 23:10:51 <Rubidium> Ruudjah|energetic: maybe it's because people getting aggravated by the constant stream of people we are doing things wrong without understanding the governing laws 23:11:01 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: exactly :) 23:11:12 <benjamingoodger> svippy: again, you are addressing the wrong person 23:11:17 <svippy> No no. 23:11:24 <svippy> You said it restricts the freedom of the user a lot. 23:11:25 <Rubidium> Ruudjah|energetic: maybe it's because people getting aggravated by the constant stream of people who are saying we are doing things wrong without understanding the governing laws 23:11:32 <benjamingoodger> yes, it does 23:11:44 <svippy> It doesn't *and* it shouldn't matter, cause the user isn't the one who wrote the code in the first place. 23:11:58 <svippy> Besides, what can't the user do? 23:11:59 <benjamingoodger> the 0th freedom is cancelled in GPL3 under certain conditions 23:12:00 <Eddi|zuHause> open source is not about users 23:12:05 <Ruudjah|energetic> but apparently, it hampers development of openttd. You guys do not want to make an autodownaloder component for grfs since of users want to have their credits. Hence, its hampering ottd development, hence it is hampering oss development (even itf it is only slightly, for one project, for one aspect of it) 23:12:08 <Eddi|zuHause> it is about potential co-developers 23:12:13 <svippy> You want a BSD licence instead, benjamingoodger? 23:12:19 <benjamingoodger> or rather, it is about the software 23:12:22 <svippy> That reduces protections of the developer. 23:12:32 <benjamingoodger> svippy: no, of course not 23:12:41 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: why are you so eager to find something that 'hampers' oss developement? 23:12:50 <TrueBrain> are you in that much need of a blog post? :) (seriously wondering) 23:12:56 <svippy> You think it is any wonder the Windows 98 TCP driver was taking from *BSD, benjamingoodger? 23:13:02 <benjamingoodger> you seem to be thinking the wrong way around 23:13:07 <TrueBrain> I mean ... an autodownlaoder isn't that much of a need for OpenTTD to succeed as project 23:13:09 <svippy> I might! 23:13:19 <svippy> Cause I fail to see what the problem is about OpenTTD. 23:13:21 <benjamingoodger> ok, then, if you know you're doing it, stop :) 23:13:32 <planetmaker> Ruudjah|energetic: mind that Rubidium said that a download _could_ be possible, if it _could_ be ensured, that only newgrfs are downloaded whose license allows that (from a central repo where such things can be assured) 23:13:45 <Nite> i think crediting the artists is easy to do. 23:13:52 <Ruudjah|energetic> Truebrain: I am wondering why oss can't, after years of development, bring software to the masses.... With only one exception: firefox 23:13:58 *** mikl [~mikl@0x57372ee2.mrbnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd 23:14:06 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: that is more a PR issue ;) 23:14:12 <Ruudjah|energetic> installation of software is a serious issue for that 23:14:15 <TrueBrain> has little to do with something like being able to download newgrfs ;) 23:14:18 <Rubidium> Ruudjah|energetic: because users can't be arsed to change their habits 23:14:21 <planetmaker> Nite: that's not their only concern. Also only distributing newest version, having control over the spread of it. 23:14:24 <TrueBrain> OpenTTD really is a simple install process :) 23:14:29 <benjamingoodger> there is no specific problem with OTTD... I was just correcting your comment about the users being given freedom. the GPL actually restricts the user nowadays, and it restricts other developers a _lot_ 23:14:31 <petern> main problem with an autodownloader is automatically finding the location of the download... 23:14:34 <svippy> Are we talking Windows, TrueBrain? 23:14:39 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1C455.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:14:39 <TrueBrain> if you want to be a 'power' user of OpenTTD .... 23:14:42 <Ruudjah|energetic> a whole lot of issues, i think. Technical issues can be removed, since developers make the software. PR issues can be removed with money 23:14:43 <TrueBrain> svippy: any OS 23:14:46 <svippy> I dunno how it is on Windows... 23:14:52 <svippy> On Linux it is extract and run. 23:14:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Ruudjah|energetic: because software cannot be free, if you do not believe that, ask microsoft. 23:14:56 <planetmaker> petern: not so for a central repository. 23:14:58 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: and money ... OSS doesn't have ;) (in general) 23:15:10 <svippy> Mozilla have money. 23:15:12 <svippy> Lots of money. 23:15:23 <svippy> Why you think they all have MacBook Pros? 23:15:26 <Nite> money and organization 23:15:39 <Ruudjah|energetic> TrueBrain, installing openttd is not a simple process. Yes, I agree, from my own devver heart perspective it is ridiculously simple. But my mom, or my gamer-friend, still thinks it is hard! 23:15:44 <svippy> Organisation, indeed. Mozilla did have an advantage in the form of Netscape. 23:15:59 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: how is it hard? Double click the .exe, Next, Next, done 23:16:00 <petern> yeah, you have to run an installer... it's so hard :/ 23:16:03 <TrueBrain> like any other software 23:16:08 <TrueBrain> sorry, I really fail to see how it is hard .... 23:16:11 <svippy> Ruudjah|energetic: Because they are narrow minded into a progress that isn't even fully standardised? 23:16:24 <TrueBrain> installing Microsoft Office is more hard :) 23:16:27 <benjamingoodger> svippy: well, actually, no, netscape got bought by AOL. the only thing moz shares with NS is the appalling rendering engine 23:16:30 <svippy> That is not OpenTTD's problem, that is their problem. 23:16:40 <svippy> Appalling, benjamingoodger? 23:16:47 <benjamingoodger> appalling, svippy. 23:16:49 <svippy> I fail to see how Gecko is appalling. 23:16:52 <Ruudjah|energetic> simply the observation that _they find it hard_, makes it that it is hard, at least for some people. 23:16:58 <benjamingoodger> well, it's slow... _really_ slow 23:17:01 <svippy> No. 23:17:04 <benjamingoodger> Yes. 23:17:05 <svippy> It is really really fast. 23:17:07 <svippy> I use it. 23:17:07 <petern> bwhahaha 23:17:12 <svippy> On a daily fucking basis. 23:17:14 <benjamingoodger> I use it too 23:17:15 <Rubidium> Ruudjah|energetic: then Windows and Microsoft Word are hard to use 23:17:18 <svippy> And I can confirm otherwise. 23:17:23 <petern> gecko was made faster by throwing more mhz at it ;) 23:17:24 <Ruudjah|energetic> I think for an oss project to be successfull, it needs some preconditions. one-click installers are one of those 23:17:26 <svippy> benjamingoodger: Get a alpha release. 23:17:27 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: the observartion that they find it hard, without any clearification makes it useless for this project ;) 23:17:42 <benjamingoodger> and when I use webkit browsers, on the odd occasion, they expose gecko as terrible 23:17:45 <svippy> That's what you see Gecko in all its glory, benjamingoodger. 23:17:46 <TrueBrain> like I get clients calling: my computer gives an error! - Which one? - I forgot, I clicked it away 23:17:47 <svippy> Trust me, petern. 23:17:51 <TrueBrain> I rather have them not calling me :) 23:18:01 <svippy> The javascript engine have been seriously improved. 23:18:01 <petern> why should i trust you when i have first-hand experience? 23:18:06 <Ruudjah|energetic> Rabidium: yes, it is. That is why companies have admins, and support. That is why MS focused purely on UI for the 2007 release of office. 23:18:09 <svippy> Which version are you using, petern? 23:18:19 <benjamingoodger> I don't care about alpha releases, I care about releases. current stable releases of webkit are lightning-fast compared to current stable releases of gecko... 23:18:38 <svippy> Yes, and Webkit are partly developed by Apple and Google. 23:18:45 <benjamingoodger> ...and? 23:18:46 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: if any user fails to install OpenTTD Installer (Windows), they are not much of a user, and will never be able to install any project (sorry, but that is the truth) 23:18:53 <svippy> Sounds like an upper hand to me, benjamingoodger. 23:18:54 <TrueBrain> FireFox even has a more complex installer 23:19:02 <benjamingoodger> ...so? 23:19:03 <TrueBrain> and you pointed out yourself that it is a succeeding project :) 23:19:10 <TrueBrain> if you want to bring OpenTTD to the masses 23:19:13 <TrueBrain> you need to put money in it 23:19:14 <svippy> Trident sucks bollocks, and is created by the largest software company in the world, benjamingoodger. 23:19:14 <Ruudjah|energetic> wow Truebrain, that seems very arrogant to me 23:19:15 <TrueBrain> and lots of it :) 23:19:26 <svippy> benjamingoodger: They are working on it. 23:19:27 <benjamingoodger> ...what's your point? 23:19:30 <svippy> That's my point. 23:19:39 <svippy> And the Gecko is fairly sophisticated. 23:19:43 <benjamingoodger> that's not a point 23:19:46 <svippy> And Webkit has several security issues. 23:19:48 <Nite> what makes the firefox installe complex? 23:19:57 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: not meant arrogant, more realistic :) A few times hitting Next should be possible for any user with a bit of knowledge; it doesn't matter how much 'Next' hits it needs 23:19:57 <petern> gecko doesn't have security issues? hehe 23:20:01 <Rubidium> Nite: that you have to read a EULA 23:20:10 <benjamingoodger> *nod* 23:20:11 <Nite> its clicking on an icon and ok ok ok. 23:20:15 <benjamingoodger> EULA fail 23:20:24 <svippy> No, petern, but Gecko doesn't have obvious issues like Webkit have, petern. 23:20:24 <benjamingoodger> though there's a debian bug to strip that little abberation out 23:20:27 <Nite> noone can make you actually "read" it ;) 23:20:34 <Ruudjah|energetic> for ottd they fail at pointing to the original tt folder 23:20:39 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: I fail to see how such process can be improved any more, and how it can help in bringing OpenTTD 'to the masses' 23:20:41 <svippy> Did you not read the recent release of PM issues. 23:20:47 <svippy> Hm... wait, that might be a browser issue. 23:20:52 <Rubidium> but TrueBrain's right that bringing OpenTTD to the masses needs lots of money; and the first step would involve ... lawyers 23:21:08 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: okay, there you have a point 23:21:13 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: OpenGFX most likely fixes most of that 23:21:18 <benjamingoodger> I fail utterly to see how an HTML renderer can have any security issues 23:21:24 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: hehe :) 23:21:25 <svippy> It can. 23:21:29 <svippy> Ask Microsoft, benjamingoodger. 23:21:36 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: btw, have the original TT CD in your cdrom drive and you will be fine ;) 23:21:37 <benjamingoodger> well, I mean, useful ones 23:21:52 <benjamingoodger> trident's a pile of wank, you needn't insult me by bringing it into this conversation 23:21:54 <svippy> Sorry, benjamingoodger, but some render engines apparently can execute code. 23:21:56 <Ruudjah|energetic> what about: *clicks "install OTTD button at ottd website"* 2. window pops up, showing "You really want to install?" yes/no 3. "Ottd is installed. Do you want to start it now? yes/no" 23:22:02 <Nite> openttd will hopefully NOT end as bought out unfinished to some publisher ... 23:22:02 <Rubidium> and again there's the number 1 problem of "users": they click click click and don't read 23:22:03 <svippy> I apologise, benjamingoodger. 23:22:07 <benjamingoodger> :) 23:22:11 *** sulai [~Miranda@p5B2B45BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 23:22:17 <benjamingoodger> ok, onto point 2 23:22:18 <Ruudjah|energetic> users never have a problem 23:22:22 <benjamingoodger> gecko uses too much memory 23:22:26 <svippy> Really? 23:22:29 <benjamingoodger> oh yeah 23:22:29 <Ruudjah|energetic> devvers always do, and thus software always has 23:22:31 <Rubidium> and not reading stuff is the major cause of people getting aggravated by so-called noobs 23:22:44 <svippy> Benchmark studies showed that Firefox 3 used the least amount of memory of all the modern browsers. 23:22:48 <benjamingoodger> yesterday it was eating 850M with one firefox tab 23:22:57 <svippy> O_o 23:22:59 <svippy> wt... 23:23:08 <svippy> Are you sure you're using Firefox 3? 23:23:12 <planetmaker> depends upon what is displayed. 23:23:12 <Nite> forget about memory usage soon well have 64 bit systems 23:23:20 <planetmaker> If I display a 1GB image ;) 23:23:24 <benjamingoodger> planetmaker: it was my company's website (http://flesbooks.com)... 23:23:30 <benjamingoodger> which I think is about thirty K 23:23:34 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: do tell, ignoring the requirement for the graphics problem, what the difference is between installing OpenTTD and installing FireFox? 23:23:40 <benjamingoodger> massive memory leaks FTL. 23:23:44 <svippy> Right now, benjamingoodger, I have 40 tabs open. 23:24:06 <benjamingoodger> point three. gecko doesn't support font definitions within CSS 23:24:17 <benjamingoodger> point four. gecko extends CSS with proprietary components 23:24:21 <TrueBrain> FireFox too is: clikc, download, double click on exe, Agree (even a thingy you need to click), Next, Next, Next, Install 23:24:25 <svippy> Firefox is using 272m. 23:24:37 <benjamingoodger> well, good for you. mine used 850M 23:24:39 <TrueBrain> OpenTTD is: clikc, download, double clock on exe, Next, Next, *click dir for TT graphics*, Next :p 23:24:42 <svippy> So does webkit, benjamingoodger. 23:24:48 <Ruudjah|energetic> 1. The page promoting firefox. It instantly shows the functionality and advantges of firefox. 23:25:10 <benjamingoodger> that doesn't mean that gecko should 23:25:10 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: 1. www.openttd.org ; it instantly shows the funcionality and adavantages of OpenTTD. :) 23:25:16 <Ruudjah|energetic> 2. the question: are you experienced or not? --> "standard/expert installation"" 23:25:17 <TrueBrain> haha :) 23:25:17 <svippy> In fact, W3C have defined that variables starting with - are non-standard to be defined by the browser, benjamingoodger. 23:25:24 <Nite> ff has very few functionality thats its strongpoint 23:25:24 <Rubidium> Ruudjah|energetic: and where should OpenTTD be compared with? 23:25:28 <benjamingoodger> gecko can be crappy on its own or in comparison to webkit 23:25:32 <benjamingoodger> in this case it is crappy on its own 23:25:34 <Rubidium> i.e. where does it have advantages over? 23:25:43 <benjamingoodger> anyway 23:25:46 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: over being bored and sitting silent at your desk :) 23:25:55 <svippy> While they wait for the CSS3 to be standardised, benjamingoodger. 23:26:04 <svippy> Which it hasn't yet, but still are taking it to them. 23:26:10 <Nite> thx of reminding truebrain ;D 23:26:17 <Ruudjah|energetic> 3: install location. What has my mother to do where openttd is going on the HDD> 23:26:17 <benjamingoodger> yes, indeed, but CSS3 has been stable since the beginning of time 23:26:27 <svippy> True. 23:26:32 <svippy> It's a technicality. 23:26:35 <benjamingoodger> but let us cease this vitriol-filled conversation 23:26:39 <Ruudjah|energetic> 4: why would my mother care about the start menu folder? 23:26:42 <benjamingoodger> how is your novel? :) 23:26:48 <svippy> O: I think it is good. 23:26:54 <svippy> But I am obviously biased. 23:27:11 <svippy> But! I have that far yet. 23:27:12 <benjamingoodger> well, yes, so am I, and so is everyone else. the idea is to convince people you're not ^_^ 23:27:14 <svippy> Only 35k words. 23:27:26 <benjamingoodger> that's more than mine... 23:27:26 <Ruudjah|energetic> openttd.org shows the latest blogpost, not the advatnatges/features/func of openttd 23:27:33 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: 3. any sane installer asks 23:27:42 <Ruudjah|energetic> I know 23:27:48 <TrueBrain> and you think THAT is in the way of 'to the masses'? 23:27:49 <TrueBrain> haha :) 23:27:51 <benjamingoodger> would you care to send me the text, just so I can shove it into my typesetter and tell you how many pages it is? :) 23:27:52 <Ruudjah|energetic> i install about 10 programs a day 23:27:58 <Ruudjah|energetic> but my mother doesnt 23:28:07 <TrueBrain> so she clicks 'next' 23:28:12 <TrueBrain> like any user who has no clue what to hit next does :p 23:28:18 <Rubidium> Ruudjah|energetic: again... advantages compared to what? 23:28:18 <Ruudjah|energetic> PS *mother* is my metaphor for the dumbest user possible 23:28:23 <benjamingoodger> I promise not to publish it :) 23:28:26 <svippy> benjamingoodger: I warn you! There are several spelling mistakes and grammar issues in it. Including plot holes and other errors. 23:28:32 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: I would have picked the same metaphor ;) 23:28:34 <benjamingoodger> that's OK 23:28:34 <Ruudjah|energetic> compared to Transport Tycoon maybe? 23:28:44 <Rubidium> Ruudjah|energetic: give you mother ubuntu; then she doesn't have any installer wizards, i.e. it's much easier 23:28:54 <Ruudjah|energetic> (not being sarcastic here, just wanna give feedback.... I love all you guys' efforts....!) 23:29:22 <Ruudjah|energetic> But I learned that users are dumb 23:29:25 <Ruudjah|energetic> very dumb 23:29:36 <planetmaker> good 23:29:43 <Ruudjah|energetic> and therefore we --> "developers" need to anticipate on that dumbness 23:29:44 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: and there still isn't a cure :) 23:30:01 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: it really won't give us any significant amount of more users 23:30:04 <planetmaker> there're two things which are infinite: stupidity and the universe. I'm not sure about the latter (A. Einstein) 23:30:09 <Ruudjah|energetic> and usually, we "developers" are smart enough to do so. usually, its just a it of psychology 23:30:12 <TrueBrain> as if you mother would want to play the game, she asks ;) 23:30:14 <benjamingoodger> aaagh, do you have it as plaintext? 23:30:38 <Ruudjah|energetic> my gamer friend, for example, would. 23:30:47 <TrueBrain> I worked for ages as sysop at a school 23:30:48 <Nite> users are not dumb -most developers yust dont know how to trigger their intelligence. 23:30:53 <TrueBrain> the level of stupidness there is lowest of all 23:31:01 <TrueBrain> there really isn't a more stupid race on earth 23:31:02 <TrueBrain> teachers 23:31:11 <TrueBrain> I could hang on big billboards with instructions 23:31:13 <TrueBrain> they always failed 23:31:13 <Nite> its more of a communicatoin problem i think 23:31:18 <TrueBrain> even hitting the: YES I AGREE button 23:31:19 <TrueBrain> failed .. 23:31:22 <Ruudjah|energetic> but as we know the r stupid/dumb, we should anticipate on that 23:31:36 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: oh... in my view the sysops at my school were the dumbest ;) 23:31:44 <Ruudjah|energetic> hence cutting every possible little step in any kind of process 23:31:48 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: that is an other level of dumb ;) 23:31:58 <svippy> benjamingoodger: Uhm, no. Can OOo export to plain text? 23:32:15 <TrueBrain> it would be nice if we could have enough money to get OpenTTD really out there :p 23:32:15 <TrueBrain> haha 23:32:18 <TrueBrain> put it in stores 23:32:20 <TrueBrain> billboards 23:32:21 <TrueBrain> hmm ... 23:32:40 <benjamingoodger> svippy: yeah, it's way down the list in the save as box 23:32:41 <Nite> money profit - bah! 23:32:57 <TrueBrain> of course orudge will be leading the sell 23:33:00 <TrueBrain> and I will make a deal with him 23:33:03 <TrueBrain> say ... 50%? :p 23:33:53 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: I understand your effort, and what you try to say; I have been long enough to understand it perfectly fine :) But for fun, find such user which can't handle the OpenTTD installer 23:33:58 <TrueBrain> and try to give him any modified version of it 23:34:02 <Rubidium> as long as you start by buying the exclusive TTD license from Atari/whoever has it ;) 23:34:05 <TrueBrain> I think he will fail on any version you give him 23:34:06 <Ruudjah|energetic> have found already two 23:34:11 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: of course! :) 23:34:12 <Ruudjah|energetic> three even 23:34:18 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: so modify the installer 23:34:21 <TrueBrain> and see where it goes wrong 23:34:30 <TrueBrain> don't guess 23:34:32 <TrueBrain> know for sure :) 23:34:37 <TrueBrain> as I think you will be very suprised :) 23:34:43 <svippy> benjamingoodger: Better? 23:34:51 <Ruudjah|energetic> not sure what you trying to tell here? 23:34:57 <benjamingoodger> much. 23:35:07 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: they can't ge tthe game installed, right? 23:35:13 <Rubidium> Ruudjah|energetic: the installer problem is mostly legal and not enough time 23:35:14 <TrueBrain> somewhere they fail in the process of hitting Next 23:35:33 <Ruudjah|energetic> yup 23:35:35 <TrueBrain> so modify the installer in such way they don't fail :) I think you can't find any way ... 23:35:51 <TrueBrain> and if you do .. give us thepatch :p 23:36:03 <Ruudjah|energetic> i cant write cpp code 23:36:07 <TrueBrain> the isntaller is NSIS 23:36:11 <TrueBrain> nothing to do with C++ :p 23:36:15 <Ruudjah|energetic> okay 23:36:24 <orudge> TrueBrain: 51% / 49%, obviously ;) 23:36:24 <TrueBrain> (not NCIS, that is a nice serie :p) 23:36:24 <Ruudjah|energetic> *moves unto todo list* 23:36:32 <TrueBrain> orudge: me the 51% Wow, tnx :) 23:36:34 <orudge> pfft 23:36:35 <TrueBrain> good, that is a deal :) 23:36:40 <Ruudjah|energetic> nsis, wasnt that nulllsoft blalabla thingie? 23:36:43 <TrueBrain> yup 23:36:47 <TrueBrain> the installer 23:36:52 <Ruudjah|energetic> winamp! 23:36:59 <Ruudjah|energetic> those devvers are my heroes 23:37:10 <TrueBrain> in the old day they made an app which I would worth metioning 23:37:13 <TrueBrain> but I Wouldn't call it winamp 23:37:17 <TrueBrain> I woul dsay: winamp 2 23:37:19 <Rubidium> really? after the 2 series it totally sucked 23:37:20 <TrueBrain> maybe winamp 3 23:37:22 <Ruudjah|energetic> motivation to dive into nsis +1 23:37:27 <TrueBrain> but ....... don't get any futher than that :p 23:37:34 <Ruudjah|energetic> :) 23:37:36 <Ruudjah|energetic> amen. 23:37:42 <TrueBrain> so please never say again just: winamp! 23:37:44 <TrueBrain> brr :p 23:37:52 <benjamingoodger> 177 pages without linebreaks, svippy. unfortunately it needs blank lines between paragraphs, but I shan't ask you to insert them ¬.¬ 23:38:08 <Ruudjah|energetic> winamp 2: clickityclick *arivies instantly on screen, even if p150 16MB mem* 23:38:22 <Rubidium> Ruudjah|energetic: I'd like to add the precondition "do not add the TTD graphics to the installer" for your "easy" installer project 23:38:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i still don't know why amarok 2 crashes on startup here... 23:38:30 <svippy> Hm, benjamingoodger, right now I use line breaks for paragraph change and two line breaks for section change. 23:38:37 *** Yeggstry is now known as Yeggzzz 23:38:38 <svippy> I suppose that is easily converted, hm? 23:38:41 <Ruudjah|energetic> winamp 3 clickteyclick *wait.... wait.... wait.... HDD busy.... half screen appears.....* 23:38:52 <Ruudjah|energetic> next day, winamp 3 arrives 23:38:59 <benjamingoodger> yeah, but I CBA until you've finished it (and signed a publication contract) 23:39:02 <TrueBrain> try their 'latest' version .. 23:39:08 <TrueBrain> even songbird boots faster for the first time 23:39:11 <benjamingoodger> I've finished the ending for my novel now... there is much death, for people who deserve it, and one death for someone who does not 23:39:32 <svippy> Uh. 23:39:36 <TrueBrain> we ar ethe people who deserve it, and you are the one who does not? 23:39:40 <svippy> Is it bad that there isn't so much death in mine, benjamingoodger? 23:39:53 <svippy> The only death there really is is really really odd. 23:39:59 <svippy> Actually, the entire story is odd. 23:40:01 <Ruudjah|energetic> TrueBrain/Rubidium: I totally understand you guys do not want any connection with some autodownloader/autoinstaller of grf/newgrf due to artist stubbornness... no problem. I will never try to affiliate ottd project in any way with it. 23:40:04 <svippy> Even so, it confuses me at times. 23:40:14 <benjamingoodger> no, non-death is good also 23:40:29 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: or try to find common ground with those people, I say ;) 23:40:36 <benjamingoodger> the death at the end was necessary for character development and emotional exposition etcetcetcetc. 23:40:44 <svippy> Ah yes. 23:40:49 <svippy> It brings on many changes. 23:40:51 <svippy> Just like suicide. 23:40:56 <benjamingoodger> quite. 23:40:56 <Ruudjah|energetic> "or try to find common ground with those people, I say" that _does sound sarcastic :P 23:41:03 <TrueBrain> it was not 23:41:07 <TrueBrain> I was pretty serious 23:41:33 <benjamingoodger> "do unto others as you would have them do to you." "yeah, like that'll work! ppfff!" 23:41:38 <TrueBrain> btw, Lijbrandt zuigt 23:41:40 <TrueBrain> just so you know 23:41:48 <Ruudjah|energetic> i already do. 23:42:06 <TrueBrain> Surfnet over Lijbrandt even does .. but at least it gives 100/100 :p 23:42:15 <Ruudjah|energetic> but usually, i do have the €10 100Mbit straight-onto-amsix advantage. 23:42:16 <benjamingoodger> the character dying is killed off deliberately by one of the other characters 23:42:33 <benjamingoodger> and a third character then gets to hate the latter throughout the sequel. 23:42:42 <svippy> OH YEAH. 23:42:43 <Ruudjah|energetic> which is unmatched. reliability is a learneing point for them though (yes... sarcasm) 23:42:52 <TrueBrain> benjamingoodger / svippy: don't you think it is time for both of you to find your own channel? 23:42:57 <Eddi|zuHause> this is openttd... unless your people are killed in a vehicle accident, you are off topic here 23:43:03 <Ruudjah|energetic> lol 23:43:06 <benjamingoodger> *nod* 23:43:12 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: hehe ... I know all about that :) Even meet the director of Lijbrandt to explain the problems :p 23:43:13 <Ruudjah|energetic> Nite: can follow discussion still? 23:43:20 <Ruudjah|energetic> omg 23:43:25 <Ruudjah|energetic> where u live, TB? 23:43:29 <Ruudjah|energetic> Leiden? 23:43:30 <TrueBrain> Guess :p 23:43:31 <Nite> topcis ? are there topics here :D 23:43:34 <TrueBrain> Surfnet .. Lijbrandt ... 23:43:36 <Eddi|zuHause> grammar you learn can still 23:43:37 <TrueBrain> can't be much :p 23:43:42 <Ruudjah|energetic> adam? 23:43:45 <TrueBrain> nope 23:43:49 <TrueBrain> I am not that big :p 23:43:58 <benjamingoodger> is that a specific request to stop discussing this topic here, TrueBrain? 23:44:03 <svippy> Eddi|zuHause; learn grammar, you could. 23:44:11 <svippy> Maybe I am just a Yoda fan. 23:44:11 <TrueBrain> benjamingoodger: well, I always wanted to test my new @kick command, but yes 23:44:18 <Ruudjah|energetic> whugh, for new good guesses i have to check their website... I hate to focus energy on them. cant u just tell? 23:44:25 <benjamingoodger> ok... and will you extend the same courtesy to us? 23:44:52 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: I never worked there :p 23:45:34 <Ruudjah|energetic> but hired as consult? 23:45:37 <TrueBrain> no :) 23:45:42 <Ruudjah|energetic> what town didnt i mention? 23:45:48 <TrueBrain> I live in Leiden :) 23:45:49 <Nite> bla bla cya 23:45:55 <TrueBrain> bye nite :) 23:45:57 *** roboboy [3aad2910@webchat.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 23:45:57 <Ruudjah|energetic> haha 23:46:01 *** Nite [~chatzilla@chello084114177252.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has left #openttd [] 23:46:03 <Ruudjah|energetic> first hit 23:46:12 <TrueBrain> Surfnet and Lijbrandt .. only Leiden has that :p 23:46:15 <TrueBrain> student housing ;) 23:46:25 <Ruudjah|energetic> uh 23:46:32 <TrueBrain> I was in a "kritische gebruikersgroep" to get that in correct state ... 23:46:35 <Ruudjah|energetic> i have lijbrandt 23:46:40 <Ruudjah|energetic> as u noticed 23:46:42 <TrueBrain> yup 23:46:47 <Ruudjah|energetic> but dont live in leiden 23:46:47 <TrueBrain> but not surfnet ;) 23:46:50 <Ruudjah|energetic> right 23:46:59 <Ruudjah|energetic> so what did u do? 23:47:00 <TrueBrain> Surfnet is the 100/100 connection :) 23:47:07 <Ruudjah|energetic> u walked into management office 23:47:10 <TrueBrain> haha, no 23:47:12 <benjamingoodger> TrueBrain: kindly explain how you arrived at the conclusion that your present dialogue is less offtopic than mine 23:47:13 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: does that mean you overused your connection? :p 23:47:15 <TrueBrain> a nice meeting and all 23:47:27 <Ruudjah|energetic> between users and admins and management? 23:47:34 <TrueBrain> users and management at first 23:47:41 <TrueBrain> we had to beg for one sysop 23:47:42 <Ruudjah|energetic> but i do have 100/100 23:47:57 <TrueBrain> when the sysop joiend the meeting, 3 meeting later, the problem was fixed within a week :p 23:47:57 <TrueBrain> lol 23:48:10 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: hmm .. you are right, they have those too :) 23:48:18 <Ruudjah|energetic> there is an awesome (dutch) post about this tsuf... 23:48:19 <TrueBrain> benjamingoodger: our topic isn't going on for more than 10 minutes now 23:48:23 <Ruudjah|energetic> brb 23:48:24 <TrueBrain> url? 23:49:00 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: not overused .. still do :p 23:49:01 <TrueBrain> haha 23:49:12 <Ruudjah|energetic> found 23:49:17 <Ruudjah|energetic> for dutchies: http://gathering.tweakers.net/forum/list_message/29093085#29093085 23:49:27 <Ruudjah|energetic> KnetterGek is one of the best GoT users 23:49:28 <svippy> Hehe. 23:49:31 <svippy> I like Dutch. 23:49:42 <TrueBrain> hitting 4 TiB a month ... hmm ... 23:49:44 <Ruudjah|energetic> ok, ill give a translation 23:49:54 <TrueBrain> url is invalid :( 23:50:01 <TrueBrain> I don't hav epermission!! :'( 23:50:10 <svippy> I love that word! 23:50:19 *** roboboy [3aad2910@webchat.mibbit.com] has quit [] 23:50:22 <svippy> It's like permission, but electronic! 23:50:27 <TrueBrain> logging in helps :p 23:50:31 *** roboboy [3aad2910@webchat.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 23:51:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't have "toegang" either 23:51:32 * Rubidium dislikes stuff that requires logins to just view something 23:51:37 <benjamingoodger> :D 23:51:55 <TrueBrain> so you dislike your bankaccount? 23:51:57 <Ruudjah|energetic> url works here 23:51:58 <TrueBrain> (hehe, sorry :)) 23:52:13 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah|energetic: you need to be logged in to tweakers .. I guess most of the users here don't even know what it is :p 23:52:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean i usually understand dutch, but forcing me to register... i won't do that 23:52:24 <Ruudjah|energetic> ow 23:52:32 <TrueBrain> so translate ;) 23:52:35 <Ruudjah|energetic> can post dutch post here 23:52:49 <Ruudjah|energetic> Zoals gezegd, de business moet iets willen. De IT club (en dus ook de ontwikkeling) voert dat uit. Zeggen dat je ontwikkelingsclub naar eigen inzicht bedrijfsbhoeften mag opvangen is natuurlijk vragen om ellende: de ontwikkeling heeft per definitie geen verstand van hoe het bedrijf moet lopen: dat is per definitie de directie die dat weet. Netto resultaat zou, in een kristal helder voorbeeld, kunnen zijn dat de ontwikkelaars een gratis 23:52:49 <Ruudjah|energetic> person shooter ontwikkelen omdat de meeste gebruikers het leuk vinden tegen elkaar schietspelletjes over het LAN te doen. Dat er ook behoefte aan is om bijvoorbeeld patientgegevens bij de verpleging te krijgen, dat kan, maar ja, ontwikkeling moet de prioriteit vaststellen dus ja... d'r willen meer mensen gamen dan werken heh. De verpleegster komt zo de quaddamage brengen. 23:52:49 <Ruudjah|energetic> Het probleem is in jouw geval niet de IT club. En niet dat jullie de bal gegooid krijgen, dat jullie zelf naar hartelust projectjes mogen verzinnen of wat dan ook. 23:52:51 <Ruudjah|energetic> Het probleem is semi overheid en dat het management in zulke toko's eigenlijk behoudens een zeldzame uitzondering geen flauw benul heeft van hoe je een bedrijf runt en hoe je een organisatie goed opzet en draaiend houd. 23:52:51 <Eddi|zuHause> i will go to bed. 23:52:55 <TrueBrain> no, TRANSLATE 23:53:01 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: so soon? 23:53:04 <TrueBrain> but we will miss you :( 23:53:16 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. i must be sick or something 23:53:17 <SmatZ> I already miss you! 23:53:34 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: well, good night :) 23:53:48 <dihedral> is there any way clients can check if a company has a password set or not? 23:54:16 <TrueBrain> it used to be in a query packet 23:54:18 <dihedral> use_password in _network_company_info is not set 23:54:20 <TrueBrain> but my knowledge is outdated :p 23:54:32 <Ruudjah|energetic> translation is hard 23:54:37 <Ruudjah|energetic> nuances go lost 23:54:47 <dihedral> which is a shame, because that value is merely a boolean and could be set imo 23:54:49 <Ruudjah|energetic> hence 75% of the humor 23:54:52 <Eddi|zuHause> welcome to the real world 23:54:59 <benjamingoodger> "As I said, the business must want something. The IT club (and hence the development) bring that out. To say that your development club at its discretion may absorb bedrijfsbhoeften is asking for trouble: the development by definition has no understanding of how the company must walk: that is, by definition, the supervisor who knows. Net result would, in a crystal clear example may be that the developers developed an 23:55:00 <benjamingoodger> FPS because most users find it fun shooting games against each other on the LAN to do. That there is also need for example, patient data in nursing to get, you can, but yes, development priority should therefore adopt yes ... her want more people working than gaming heh. The nurse comes as damage to the quad. 23:55:00 <benjamingoodger> The problem is not the case in your IT club. And not that you get the ball thrown, that you own to your heart's projects may invent or whatever. 23:55:06 <benjamingoodger> The problem is that the semi government and management in such toko's actually save a rare exception not the foggiest idea of how a company operates and how an organization well deliberately and keep running." 23:55:18 <TrueBrain> PASTEBIN people .. come on! 23:55:24 <benjamingoodger> by the gods, I say, google translate has godt good 23:55:24 <SmatZ> benjamingoodger: Ruudjah|energetic: you know paste.openttd.org, don't you? 23:55:25 <benjamingoodger> oh, yes, sorry :( 23:55:35 * benjamingoodger is tired and irascible 23:55:39 <Ruudjah|energetic> yes kinda 23:55:51 <Ruudjah|energetic> i noticed the recent developemtn on past website for irc 23:56:05 <Ruudjah|energetic> but i wont go into irc specifics 23:56:18 <Ruudjah|energetic> although opera made it finally accessible to me 23:56:34 <Ruudjah|energetic> since it is one click away 23:56:43 *** Dred_furst [~Dred_furs@user-5af263fd.tcl122.dsl.pol.co.uk] has joined #openttd 23:57:51 <Rubidium> dihedral: that'd require syncing that variable 23:58:26 <TrueBrain> *sync* 23:58:49 <Rubidium> so it isn't at trivial as you'd think 23:59:04 <Ruudjah|energetic> oh 23:59:19 <Ruudjah|energetic> any word on the competition thingie i started at the forum? 23:59:40 <TrueBrain> the only remaining word of this night I have for you is: goodnight :)