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00:06:26 *** andythenorth [~andy@87.113.96.92.plusnet.pte-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 00:08:53 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:10:00 *** Dade [~Dade@125.67-212-47-net.sccoast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:32:55 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B75BAD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 00:33:20 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B76747.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 00:40:47 *** fonsinchen [~alve@brln-4dbc1d50.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 00:43:02 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-25-162-115.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:45:04 *** asilv [~as@h-62-142-160-55.joensuunelli.fi] has quit [] 01:00:14 *** fjb is now known as Guest1323 01:00:14 *** Guest1323 [~frank@p5485F01E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:00:15 *** fjb [~frank@p5485F01E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 01:01:03 *** DaZ [~ident-dwa@dsi86.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 01:04:39 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 01:05:07 *** KenjiE20|LT [~KenjiE20@host86-166-26-81.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 01:05:28 *** DaZ_ [~ident-dwa@drx14.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:05:28 *** amiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:05:41 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.22.170.238] has quit [Quit: ????] 01:06:07 *** welshdragon [~markmac@147.143.254.214] has joined #openttd 01:06:30 *** ecke [~ecke@188.75.128.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:26:47 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Tsch?ss] 01:33:19 *** fjb [~frank@p5485F01E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:39:03 *** fjb [~frank@p5485E7D7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 01:48:01 *** fonsinchen [~alve@brln-4dbc1d50.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:53:03 <De_Ghosty> http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/beau_lotto_optical_illusions_show_how_we_see.html 01:56:54 *** Chrill [~chrischri@h-16-169.A149.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [] 01:58:07 *** Polygon [~Poly@x0581b.wh7.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Quit: Flieht, ihr Narren!] 02:23:55 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@host86-166-26-81.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 02:31:08 *** KenjiE20|LT [~KenjiE20@host86-166-26-81.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:36:40 *** Choco-Banana-Man [~Stephan.D@p5B2DBB3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 02:43:28 *** Coco-Banana-Man [~Stephan.D@p5B2DBC90.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:43:28 *** Choco-Banana-Man is now known as Coco-Banana-Man 02:56:04 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@host86-166-26-81.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:58:53 *** Coco-Banana-Man [~Stephan.D@p5B2DBB3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Regel Nr. 1: Jeder hört auf mein Kommando! - Regel Nr. 2: Jeder bleibt auf dem Weg! - Regel Nr. 3: ... ... Der, der bläht, als hinterster geht!] 03:02:56 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has quit [Quit: Sleep.] 03:06:11 *** Hyppy [~Hyppy@143.148.189.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 03:08:25 *** fjb is now known as Guest1336 03:08:26 *** fjb [~frank@84.133.177.23] has joined #openttd 03:13:09 *** Guest1336 [~frank@p5485E7D7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:30:42 <Hyppy> on a few sites, I see reference to "ICE-#" trains. Which NewGRF are these in? 03:32:55 *** fjb [~frank@84.133.177.23] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:35:04 <roboboy> The DBXL set 03:41:34 *** Splex [~splex@n058152254152.netvigator.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:56:07 <Hyppy> ugh I feel like such an idiot. Built up a full SBahn map, worked out all the kinks in the mainlines, sidelines, and loops, and had a full set of trains running. Little did I realize that the default trainset was far too limited for a full SBahn game :-( Oh, well. Time to start anew, I guess 04:06:03 <roboboy> are the OpenGFX grf's newgrfs? 04:07:04 <roboboy> or are they plain grfs that mimic the originals? 04:12:40 *** Pikka [~user@softbank220019198071.bbtec.net] has joined #openttd 04:25:08 <sparrL> i think they are the latter, but I am uninformed 04:25:22 <sparrL> Hyppy: SBahn? 04:26:09 * roboboy ponders tring to trick TTDPatch into using OpenGFX 04:26:20 <roboboy> ill have to rename the files and whatnot 04:28:23 <sparrL> I am going to have to install TTD and TTDPatch just so I can check out the differences 04:28:30 <sparrL> it's been the better part of a decade since I've touched TTD 04:29:08 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:acfa:43be:c471:e272] has quit [Quit: bye] 04:30:19 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:30:31 <roboboy> well TTDPatch has CargoDest built in 04:31:15 <roboboy> you may want to look at installing TTDPC but then TTDPatch's config is commented unlike OpenTTD's which is ment to be edited in the game 04:31:33 * roboboy installs tortoisegit 04:32:38 *** KingJ [~KingJ-OFT@oops.i.forgot.to.set.my.hostmask.kingj.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:33:31 <roboboy> ive now got TortoiseSVN/HG/Git on this machine 04:35:28 *** Rubix`` [~wrqwer@cbl-dhcp-5-050.machlink.com] has joined #openttd 04:43:09 *** Rubix`` [~wrqwer@cbl-dhcp-5-050.machlink.com] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: 540 seconds] 04:53:11 *** llugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8dbec.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 04:55:13 <De_Ghosty> anyone familiar with how to impiment voice control with arm chip 04:55:17 <De_Ghosty> or i it even possible? 04:59:28 *** jpx_ [~jpx_@e83-245-154-218.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:59:39 *** jpx_ [~jpx_@e83-245-154-218.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd 05:00:23 *** lugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8c0ce.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:08:27 *** llugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8dbec.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:09:00 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-111-105.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:09:13 *** Singaporekid [~notme@cm141.epsilon84.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #openttd 05:10:40 *** Cow [~cameronwi@S0106000f6629a51c.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:10:49 <Pikka> out damn cow! 05:11:12 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-97-52.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 05:11:15 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 05:12:09 <Pikka> sup Singaporekid 05:12:37 <Singaporekid> oh you pikka 05:12:50 <Singaporekid> bc2 pc beta :D 05:12:50 <Pikka> wuts 05:13:00 <Pikka> wuts a bc2 05:13:20 <Singaporekid> It's the new prattlefield, clearly 05:13:29 <Pikka> o 05:13:34 <Pikka> badcompanies 05:13:58 <Pikka> peter1138's server(s) are back D: 05:14:04 <Pikka> with pj1k D: 05:14:37 <Singaporekid> I crashed two of my trains on it yesterday 05:14:45 <Pikka> o 05:14:47 <Pikka> gj 05:14:53 <Singaporekid> uh oh 1931 05:14:58 <Pikka> I couldn't play yesterday on my eee 05:15:42 <Pikka> for some reason peter and penguin are using the ukrs trains D: 05:15:48 <Singaporekid> It could run a tf2 dedicated server for a lan party though 05:16:05 <Singaporekid> it was slightly cheaper and fasttrains 05:16:07 <Pikka> mebe.. *sniff*... mebe... 05:37:21 *** Sweet|Home [~Sweet@cpc2-port3-0-0-cust22.cos2.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:40:48 *** Sweet|Home [~Sweet@cpc2-port3-0-0-cust22.cos2.cable.ntl.com] has joined #openttd 05:57:14 <Hyppy> what causes production in a primary industry to go up or down? 06:12:25 *** Hyppy [~Hyppy@143.148.189.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:17:01 <Kovensky> it's random 06:17:10 <Kovensky> but it's affected by ratings in smooth economy IIRC 06:17:25 *** Hyppy [~Hyppy@143.148.189.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 06:23:51 <Pikka> Hyppy: http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_mechanics#Production_change 06:35:24 *** welshdragon [~markmac@147.143.254.214] has quit [Quit: welshdragon] 06:36:28 *** welshdragon [~markmac@147.143.254.214] has joined #openttd 06:37:18 *** welshdragon [~markmac@147.143.254.214] has quit [] 06:41:44 *** welshdragon [~markmac@147.143.254.214] has joined #openttd 07:11:24 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 07:58:08 *** Madis [~stabuinte@82.131.16.156.cable.starman.ee] has joined #openttd 08:04:44 *** andythenorth [~andy@87.113.96.92.plusnet.pte-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has joined #openttd 08:06:51 *** Madis [~stabuinte@82.131.16.156.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]] 08:24:30 <roboboy> Pikka: thanx for the lnk to http://ttte.wikia.com . I was reading your wiki about Project 1000 (UKRS) 08:24:54 <roboboy> Itll be of use when I get to restarting the TTE Set 08:27:48 <andythenorth> Pikka: hai hai 08:29:24 *** Roelmb [~roelyves@91.181.3.36] has joined #openttd 08:29:52 <Pikka> that's okay robo 08:29:54 <Pikka> hello andy 08:30:53 <andythenorth> are you somewhere exotic? 08:31:39 <Pikka> is kochi exotic? 08:32:16 <Rubidium> na, only naha 08:32:36 *** Roelmb [~roelyves@91.181.3.36] has left #openttd [] 08:32:57 *** Hyppy [~Hyppy@143.148.189.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:33:06 *** Roelmb [~roelyves@91.181.3.36] has joined #openttd 08:33:19 *** Roelmb [~roelyves@91.181.3.36] has left #openttd [] 08:34:44 <Rubidium> it's even going to freeze there pretty soon 08:35:13 <Pikka> it's a little cool 08:35:33 <Pikka> but north america and europe seem to be having a worse time of it 08:44:08 <sawtooth> just saw someone else post this elsewhere: http://andialbrecht.wordpress.com/2009/05/09/when-merging-fails/ 08:56:55 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d199-126-251-5.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: Rhamphoryncus] 09:08:26 *** heffer [~felix@ip-88-152-182-156.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #openttd 09:14:02 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 09:20:05 *** rellig [~quassel@minad.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:20:12 <SpComb> sawtooth: pfft, from May 09:20:41 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-088-069-205-024.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 09:42:21 *** Terkhen [~Terkhen@25.69.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #openttd 09:43:33 <Terkhen> good morning 09:45:51 <Alberth> morning Terkhen 09:50:13 *** roboboy [3aad2910@webchat.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 09:51:44 *** rellig [~quassel@minad.de] has joined #openttd 09:52:25 *** roboboy [3aad2910@webchat.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 09:58:16 <andythenorth> hi terkhen 10:01:56 *** sparrL [kvirc@c-24-98-228-62.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:03:27 *** Luukland [~Luukland@s559031d6.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd 10:03:29 <Luukland> Message: Assertion failed at line 1113 of ..\src\economy.cpp: v->time_counter != 0 10:03:30 <Luukland> Ouch 10:03:55 <SpComb> seen that one before 10:04:01 <Luukland> OpenTTD beta 2 10:04:12 <SpComb> oh, curious 10:04:24 <Luukland> Uploading the crashlog to flyspray 10:07:46 *** ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 10:07:51 <Luukland> Beh, my whole game killed :( 10:08:01 <Luukland> Emergency savegame crashes also :( 10:08:03 <Luukland> Bad bug! 10:09:59 <peter1138> it's logic. the crash.sav happens *after* the crash has occured. 10:10:22 <Luukland> I had my hopes that I could continue to build :) 10:10:46 <Luukland> ah well that is why it is called beta ^^ 10:11:19 <Luukland> http://bugs.openttd.org/task/3505 10:13:02 <Luukland> Meaning the beta is unplayable :( 10:14:53 <peter1138> what's a BPS signal? 10:15:11 <Luukland> Its a PBS signal with upside-down signal 10:15:22 <Luukland> Bad Path Signal 10:16:01 <peter1138> uh huh 10:16:27 <peter1138> well you got your answer 10:16:36 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1FD7A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 10:16:37 <peter1138> beta2 is, of course, perfectly playable. 10:17:04 <Luukland> by your defenition of playable yeah 10:17:18 * Forked gets the popcorn 10:17:33 <Luukland> Anyhow, time to do some other stuff, good luck fixing! 10:17:37 *** Luukland [~Luukland@s559031d6.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has left #openttd [] 10:18:48 <peter1138> idiot 10:19:48 <SpComb> tsk 10:29:02 <roboboy> hehe 10:29:53 <roboboy> whats the difference between CargoDest and CargoDist 10:30:08 <Rubidium> boost vs threading 10:46:58 *** fjb [~frank@p5485CCAC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 10:47:47 <Forked> (and only one of them is still being worked on?) 10:48:02 <Eddi|zuHause> roboboy: difference in design, implementation or features? 10:48:13 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@94-224-31-113.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 10:48:43 <roboboy> features 10:49:02 <roboboy> Forked: True in terms of OpenTTD 10:49:07 *** fonsinchen [~alve@brln-4dbc1d50.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 10:49:12 <roboboy> TTDPatch has CargoDest 10:49:16 <Eddi|zuHause> cargodest forces cargo down one single route, while cargodist can balance over multiple parallel routes 10:49:32 * roboboy goes to report a bug in TTDPatch 10:49:52 <roboboy> so they do the same thing differently? 10:50:02 <Forked> It's been several years since I paid any attention to the patch :) 10:50:56 <Eddi|zuHause> roboboy: that's the "design": cargodest does point-to-point connection while cargodist solves a network flow problem 10:52:51 *** roboboy [3aad2910@webchat.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 10:53:02 *** asilv [~as@h-62-142-160-55.joensuunelli.fi] has joined #openttd 10:53:32 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@94-224-31-113.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 10:53:50 *** lugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8dbec.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 10:53:53 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@94-224-31-113.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 10:55:16 *** roboboy [3aad2910@webchat.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 10:55:38 *** ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:58:33 <roboboy> TT-F seems be realy slow 10:59:12 <andythenorth> fine for me 10:59:26 <Eddi|zuHause> don't care for me 10:59:27 <roboboy> hm must be my connection 10:59:33 *** heffer [~felix@ip-88-152-182-156.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: heffer] 11:00:44 <roboboy> my attatchment failed because it was slow 11:02:03 <roboboy> grr 11:03:11 *** ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 11:09:13 *** asilv [~as@h-62-142-160-55.joensuunelli.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:11:26 *** asilv [~as@h-62-142-160-55.joensuunelli.fi] has joined #openttd 11:12:48 *** Muxy [~Muxy@main.goulp.net] has joined #openttd 11:16:07 *** Muxy [~Muxy@main.goulp.net] has quit [] 11:24:43 *** andythenorth [~andy@87.113.96.92.plusnet.pte-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:39:12 *** KingJ [~KingJ-OFT@oops.i.forgot.to.set.my.hostmask.kingj.net] has joined #openttd 11:41:21 *** Yexo [~Yexo@38-88-ftth.onsneteindhoven.nl] has quit [Quit: bye] 11:57:38 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-088-069-205-024.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:58:07 *** Pikka [~user@softbank220019198071.bbtec.net] has left #openttd [] 11:59:18 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.22.170.238] has joined #openttd 12:01:44 *** Roelmb [~roelyves@91.181.3.36] has joined #openttd 12:03:00 <Roelmb> guys is their a way to run your solution in Visual c++ 2008 express edition because it asks for the TT files (that aren't in the project) 12:05:33 <Eddi|zuHause> if you don't have the TT files, google for opengfx and opensfx 12:06:01 <Roelmb> i have them but they are not in my project so I can't debug it inside Visual c++ 12:06:43 <asilv> put ttd files to "my documents/openttd/data" 12:06:47 <Eddi|zuHause> they need to be in "my documents\openttd\data" 12:06:54 <asilv> :p 12:07:53 <asilv> hmm \ not / of course 12:08:03 <Roelmb> thats not what i mean I mean that i didn't build it yet and i want to debug it without building it first. I don't made the exe yet because I want to debug it first 12:08:31 <peter1138> ... 12:10:33 <Roelmb> When i build it with my compiler it starts runing it so you can debug it and look for errors without compiling it so it can give you warnings when needed. I don't have an exe in a folder i just have a project. With only the main code. 12:11:04 <Eddi|zuHause> you're talking nonsense 12:11:35 <Roelmb> no i'm not you guys just don't get it XD 12:12:07 <Xaroth> I think yer being outnumbered here, Roelmb 12:12:13 <Xaroth> You make absolutely no sense to me :P 12:12:31 <Roelmb> I see that nobody uses Visual c++ 2008 express edition over here 12:12:35 <Xaroth> yes I do 12:13:01 <Roelmb> so why don't you understand it then or am i explaining it wrong 12:13:08 <Xaroth> you are understanding it wrong 12:13:20 <Roelmb> euhm why should i 12:13:33 <Xaroth> you can't debug anything without building it first (with debug flags on, obviously) 12:13:40 <Xaroth> unless you want to look through the code line by line 12:13:55 <Xaroth> which I really doubt is what you want, seeing you want to run it (else it wouldn't ask for the TT files) 12:14:09 <Roelmb> i am going to describe what i am doing ok 12:15:51 <Terkhen> I use it too, to debug you need opengfx and opensfx (or the TT files) at the folders already mentioned 12:16:11 <Roelmb> I load in my project then I press ctrl F5 and then i get that langs and version is outdated. I press yes. And then it starts running the game. 12:16:33 <Xaroth> doesn't ctrl+F5 actually 'compile' the game? 12:16:44 <Roelmb> yes it does 12:16:59 <Xaroth> [Roelmb]: thats not what i mean I mean that i didn't build it yet and i want to debug it without building it first. 12:17:03 <Xaroth> so that last bit of that sentence, fails 12:17:19 <Xaroth> you -do- build it, else you -cannot- debug it that way. 12:17:23 <Roelmb> but it doesn't save it somewhere 12:17:59 <asilv> it saves exe to objs directory 12:18:01 <Xaroth> if it doesn't save it somewhere how the hell is it supposed to run? 12:18:08 <Xaroth> you can't run something that's not there 12:18:08 <Terkhen> it is probably at objs\Win32\Release\ 12:18:14 <Roelmb> ok i'll look in the objs directory 12:18:16 <Xaroth> or objs\Win32\Debug\ 12:18:39 <roboboy> its in the second one most likely 12:18:47 <Roelmb> I only have objs\win32\debug 12:19:02 <roboboy> then its there 12:19:18 *** Zuu [~Zuu@c-f5f9e253.025-58-6e6b702.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #openttd 12:19:33 <Roelmb> alright then I need to put the TT files intheir then 12:19:55 <Xaroth> no, you don't 12:19:59 <Xaroth> [Eddi|zuHause]: they need to be in "my documents\openttd\data" 12:20:28 <Terkhen> Roelmb: If you put them at the already mentioned folder, all versions of openttd will find them there 12:20:31 <roboboy> you on xp or vistaor 7? 12:20:32 <Roelmb> their is no map like that inside debug there is only an exe and object files 12:20:38 <Roelmb> I use 7 12:21:03 <Roelmb> so just in documents 12:21:12 <peter1138> directory/path/folder. not map. 12:21:17 <Roelmb> I allways putted them inside the game directory 12:21:28 <roboboy> then put it in C:\Users\Roelmb\Documents\Openttd\Data 12:22:09 <Roelmb> and does that work for the gm-files too 12:22:30 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 12:22:49 <roboboy> except they dont go in data 12:23:11 <Roelmb> oh now i get it so thats how you need to do it without copying them like for every version 12:23:45 <peter1138> it's been that way for quite a long time... 12:23:59 <Roelmb> but i used it allways the other way and it worked fine 12:24:21 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: what browser were you using earlier, when my giant-screenshot viewer didn't work for you? 12:24:28 <peter1138> yes, it's fine, as long as you want to waste a load of disk space 12:24:31 <Terkhen> it works, but now you don't have to copy the files every time you start using a new binary 12:24:34 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: konqueror 4 12:24:56 <Roelmb> ok thnx guys great help for me 12:25:04 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: google maps also has problems with konqueror... 12:25:16 <SpComb> hehe 12:25:53 <Roelmb> euhm now hes telling that he can't find the driver for direct music 12:25:54 <SpComb> if it has a script debugger, it can be fixed... 12:26:24 <Eddi|zuHause> Roelmb: maybe you should just follow the wiki on compiling _correctly_ 12:27:30 <Roelmb> I did it like it was standing their 12:28:32 <Rubidium> so you did the alternative that removed directmusic support 12:29:06 <peter1138> ahh, mangled english :D 12:29:29 <Roelmb> not really i added these pathes and it gives that error 12:30:05 <Rubidium> Roelmb: when starting OpenTTD, right? So you did both the correct way and the alternative 12:31:22 <roboboy> hm my Win7 Pro machine with MSVC 2008 express doesnt seem to have a make executable like someone in here said it should 12:31:41 <roboboy> brb 12:32:26 <roboboy> back 12:32:30 <Rubidium> Roelmb: open openttd.cfg and remove the line with music_driver; that should do the trick 12:32:55 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... sometimes i hate not being a native english speaker... 12:33:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a hard time getting "phonetic" jokes 12:33:13 <Eddi|zuHause> like "ghost in zshell" 12:33:39 <Roelmb> @rubidium:and where is that file in my solution 12:33:57 <Eddi|zuHause> (where apparently "z" should be pronounced as the american "zee") 12:34:22 <roboboy> it shou;d be in C:\Users\Roelmb\OpenTTD 12:34:24 <Rubidium> Roelmb: openttd.cfg is not part of the solution, it's part of the OpenTTD configuration; readme.txt tells where it can be 12:34:24 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: hmm, it starts working as soon as I open up the JavaScript debugger and reload :) 12:34:37 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: so it's a heisenbug ;) 12:34:44 <Roelmb> ok i'll look for it 12:34:45 <SpComb> of some sort 12:34:58 <SpComb> the mousewheel doesn't seem to work there, and the zoom ui buttons are still hidden 12:35:43 <Roelmb> rubidium: what will that do for my other versions of openttd 12:36:09 <Rubidium> possibly disable music 12:36:23 <Roelmb> damn thats the thing I don't want too 12:36:47 <roboboy> can we update the readme to include the path for Vista/7 to the users OpenTTD dir? 12:36:54 <Roelmb> but the weird thing is I have music when i compile it 12:37:30 <Rubidium> then you're on one of the lucky systems where it works with the 'other' driver 12:38:05 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, native-american-english speakers... zed-shell doesn't work either 12:38:06 <Roelmb> or not now the jukebox is runing throug every number at lightning speed 12:38:33 <Roelmb> without willing to play it 12:38:46 <Rubidium> then it's using the 'null' driver which simply doesn't play songs 12:39:25 <Roelmb> ok nevermind the music isn't that important 12:40:11 <Roelmb> and rubidium it seams like you know the code by head :p 12:41:12 <Xaroth> well seeing the amount of code he commits on a day-to-day basis.. yes, he does :p 12:41:37 <Zuu> If someone should know the code by heart, then it is Rubibium judged by his astonishing activity. 12:42:18 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: does http://projects.qmsk.net/pngtile/screenshots/20091218/1998.png (i.e. without the # bit) load for you? 12:42:21 <Roelmb> is their any way to learn the code by heart without runing true every file 12:42:50 <roboboy> What should I do if I want the readme updated? 12:43:10 <Roelmb> post it at the developers forum maybe? 12:45:33 <Roelmb> euhm little question if I try to apply a diff file to my directory it opens tortoisemerge but i doesn't do anything else 12:46:04 <Roelmb> not even applying the patch because after i compiled it it seems to have changed nothing 12:46:15 <roboboy> right click one of the listed files 12:46:49 <Roelmb> how do you mean 12:47:14 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: the zoom buttons still show up for me as long as I don't scroll around.. 12:47:15 <roboboy> it shows you a list of files to be patched right? 12:47:25 <Roelmb> nope thats my problem it doesn't 12:49:06 <roboboy> what happens if you right click on the folder containing the source and select tortoise merge then apply patch? 12:49:28 <Roelmb> then it opens the tortoisemerge window and then nothing 12:49:30 <Terkhen> I'd like to request that http://bugs.openttd.org/task/3318 type is changed to 'Core', operating system to 'all' and version to 'trunk'... as it stands is not correct... If there is something missing at the last diff file, I'd like to know it too 12:50:54 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: it says "Loading...", how long is that supposed to last? 12:51:07 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fd752.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 12:51:09 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: until it loads... never, if the JavaScript is all bugged out :) 12:51:30 <SpComb> (the "Loading..." is just a fixed text in the background with a low z-index) 12:52:17 <roboboy> Roelmb: I get two windows the tortoise merge window and a patch files window or something do you get both? 12:52:17 <SpComb> (although that's probably an abuse of z-index... seems to work, though) 12:52:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Fehler: http://projects.qmsk.net/pngtile/screenshots/20091218/1998.png: ReferenceError: Can't find variable: Source 12:52:43 <SpComb> that doesn't say much 12:52:51 <Roelmb> roboboy: nope i don't get patch files list (with other patches I get it but not with the cargodist patch) 12:52:54 <Eddi|zuHause> but that's all i get... 12:53:04 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: I didn't get any JS output at all when running it 12:53:19 <SpComb> even though I have "Report errors" enabled in the settings 12:53:21 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: there's a little bug icon in the lower right corner 12:53:43 <SpComb> don't see any 12:53:43 <roboboy> I dont think CargoDist is a SVN patch but rather a Git patch 12:53:54 <SpComb> there's some link of link-button 12:53:55 <roboboy> can someone confirm? 12:54:14 <Eddi|zuHause> roboboy: yes, cargodist is developed with git 12:54:26 *** Hirundo [~Hirundo@salieri.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: Bye - http.//dev.openttdcoop.org] 12:54:26 *** Ammler [~ammler@salieri.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: gone...] 12:54:39 <Roelmb> oh and how do i use git because i don't understand anything of that 12:54:41 <Eddi|zuHause> use "patch -p1 -i <file>" to patch 12:54:47 <roboboy> and thats why Tortoise SVN does not like it 12:55:04 <roboboy> search for tortoise git 12:55:17 <Roelmb> oh i have cygwin now 12:55:48 <Roelmb> i'll download the tortoise git then 12:56:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Roelmb: cygwin comes with the command line patch tool 12:56:05 <roboboy> where can I get the trunk using Git or the source to apply the patch with? 12:56:13 <Eddi|zuHause> Roelmb: just run the command i said 12:56:20 <Roelmb> ok i'll try 12:56:33 <Eddi|zuHause> in the trunk/ directory, not in the src/ 12:56:48 *** Hirundo [~Hirundo@salieri.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 12:57:02 <Roelmb> where is file standing for is it standing for the patch 12:57:41 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, the patch file 12:57:43 *** Ammler [~ammler@salieri.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 12:58:27 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: it seems to work in konqueror 3.5 12:59:14 <SpComb> barely, that seems to be what I'm using as well 12:59:26 <Roelmb> it says unexpected token 'newline' 12:59:50 <frosch123> hmm, either there are too few irc colours or too few letters in the alphabet 13:00:15 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: both ;) 13:00:37 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: well, at least i can see the picture there ;) 13:00:44 <Eddi|zuHause> but it overlaps the buttons 13:00:48 *** KritiK [~Maxim@78-106-179-16.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 13:01:05 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: so scrolling works, but no zoom? 13:01:28 <Roelmb> roboboy: it says mysis git install path error 13:01:34 <Eddi|zuHause> scrolling works... zoom i'm testing now 13:01:51 <SpComb> zoom works fine if you do it from the js console, but there's no UI for it 13:02:17 <Eddi|zuHause> the zoom buttons are visible, when the images aren't loaded yet 13:02:40 <SpComb> they stay visible for me as long as I don't drag the view 13:02:44 <Eddi|zuHause> so zooming works, if you scroll to an area that has not been loaded 13:02:59 <SpComb> but there's something positioning-related there, because the buttons also dissapear temporarily while dragging with FF 13:03:26 <SpComb> i.e. dragging the substrate changes its position properties, and that causes the buttons to go under 13:03:40 <SpComb> so it isn't purely a konq bug 13:04:35 <Eddi|zuHause> well, but that doesn't help fixing the konqueror 4 error 13:04:48 <Eddi|zuHause> where it doesn't show anything at all 13:07:52 <SpComb> well... I'm liable to blame khtml 13:08:04 <SpComb> this works in FF1.5, FF3, IE6, IE8, Chrome, Safari 13:08:50 <Eddi|zuHause> that might be true, but it doesn't solve the problem either ;) 13:11:45 <Roelmb> is git cloning always that slow 13:11:53 *** APTX [~APTX@chello089076052083.chello.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:11:56 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 13:12:13 <Eddi|zuHause> it copies the whole repository, not just the checkout like svn 13:12:20 <Roelmb> like how long it takes half,hour hour,... 13:12:34 *** Madis [~stabuinte@82.131.16.156.cable.starman.ee] has joined #openttd 13:12:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm told it's faster with "git:" instead of "http:" 13:13:44 <Roelmb> ok i'll try that 13:13:56 <roboboy> symlinks in Vista\& are a very handy feature of NTFS under said oses 13:14:30 <Eddi|zuHause> roboboy: NTFS supported those for 20 years, but the functionality was never exposed to users 13:14:59 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: try now, I fixed the z-index thing 13:16:01 *** Roelmb [~roelyves@91.181.3.36] has quit [] 13:16:21 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah seems to work 13:16:25 <SpComb> seems to work semi-ok apart from the missing mousewheel on konq 3.5 now, sometimes the #bit bugs out to NaN:NaN or such 13:17:06 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, it did that when i "open in konqueror/KDE3"'d it in konqueror 4 13:17:09 <SpComb> i.e. using the reload button fails 13:17:20 <SpComb> but copy-pasting the url into a new tab works 13:17:23 <Eddi|zuHause> when i remove that, it comes up with proper numbers 13:18:03 <Eddi|zuHause> probably you should check for those anyway 13:18:26 <SpComb> yeah 13:19:20 <ashb> Eddi|zuHause: before vista you could only symlink dirs, nbot files i thought 13:21:09 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: are you missing a signal at Prinnley station? 13:21:20 <Eddi|zuHause> ashb: that i don't know about... 13:23:47 <roboboy> hm 13:24:05 <roboboy> it used to be only files using Junction Points 13:26:21 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: seems it isn't just the URL being something invalid when you refresh 13:26:46 <ashb> roboboy: junction points are for dirs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTFS_junction_point 13:26:56 <roboboy> hm 13:27:14 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: not really missing, but the signal on that platform should be a one-way signal 13:27:34 *** Madis [~stabuinte@82.131.16.156.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]] 13:27:48 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: yeah, that's the variant i would build 13:28:18 *** andythenorth [~andy@87.112.6.57.plusnet.ptn-ag1.dyn.plus.net] has joined #openttd 13:28:47 <SpComb> PRIN was originall a non-terminus station, but I guess I did a slight oversight when changing it to a semi-terminus 13:28:56 <SpComb> *originally 13:33:02 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:a1ac:20d4:cabe:3141] has joined #openttd 13:33:05 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 13:33:24 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: still no luck with konq 4, though? 13:34:01 <Eddi|zuHause> no change... 13:34:09 <SpComb> and no useful JS erorr output? 13:35:35 *** lugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8dbec.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:36:20 <SpComb> oh hey, I found konqueror 4 in /usr/lib/kde4/bin/konqueror 13:37:23 <SpComb> but it doesn't say anything useful 13:38:18 <Eddi|zuHause> weird, it looks different now that i enabled the debugger... 13:39:22 <Eddi|zuHause> it now has a tiny bit of water in the upper left corner, the zoom in button is disabled, and it says "0x0@0" 13:39:31 <Eddi|zuHause> and the error is gone... 13:40:06 *** lugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8dbec.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 13:40:27 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: heh yes, it loaded for me once I did a bit of stepping through with the debugger 13:40:59 <SpComb> the mousewheel works and everything 13:41:41 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... seems to be different if JavaScript is enabled globally or just for some sites 13:42:35 <SpComb> it has the same #NaN:NaN issue as konq3, but seems to work now 13:43:31 <SpComb> i.e. I launch `/usr/lib/kde4/bin/konqueror http://projects.qmsk.net/pngtile/screenshots/20091218/1998.png` and it's all boo-hoo-NaN-undefined, but then if you backspace off the #bit in the url and hit enter, it loads 13:43:45 <Eddi|zuHause> nope... not here... 13:44:13 *** fjb [~frank@p5485CCAC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:44:16 <SpComb> no work? 13:44:22 <Eddi|zuHause> it appends "#16352:8176:0" when loading, but the display still says "0x0@0" 13:44:23 <SpComb> try copy-pasting, say, http://projects.qmsk.net/pngtile/screenshots/20091218/1998.png#6176:9736:0 into the URL bar 13:44:40 <Eddi|zuHause> and only a tiny bit of water in the upper left corner 13:45:09 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, that shows something 13:45:38 <Eddi|zuHause> and i can scroll around now 13:45:52 <Ammler> if I load it on the Konqueror, I see just "Loading..." 13:46:05 <SpComb> Ammler: try enableing the JavaScript debugger or something :P 13:46:14 <SpComb> Ammler: seems to work once you try and debug it 13:46:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: that's what i got, until i switched JavaScript to "enable globally" 13:47:06 <Ammler> well, I don't use Konqueror for web, was just wondering... 13:47:18 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: you have wrong parameter for level crossings... 13:47:43 <SpComb> no dbsetxl-style ones? 13:48:01 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: dbsetxl has a parameter to disable the level crossings, so it won't override the TTRS ones 13:48:17 <SpComb> ah well 13:49:12 <Ammler> your png viewer is damn cool 13:49:34 <Eddi|zuHause> it's very slow... :( [probably my connection] 13:50:01 <SpComb> it seems to occasionall be very slow in konq, but then it goes all fast again when you re-open it 13:50:04 <Eddi|zuHause> what happened to these gradually refining images that were "cool" around 10 years ago? 13:50:13 <SpComb> ugh, interlacing 13:50:39 <Ammler> that was a jpg feature, wasn't? 13:50:54 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: i have seen it in pngs, too 13:50:57 <SpComb> there are interlaced PNGs as well 13:50:58 *** TheMask96 [martijn@lust.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:51:07 <SpComb> they're just kind of annoying to handle 13:51:22 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: anyways, if it seems slow, then try re-opening it a couple times 13:51:30 <SpComb> it'll probably go away 13:52:27 *** gergorycu [3cf0a259@webchat.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 13:52:31 <Eddi|zuHause> it's funny when i scroll around, some images pop up almost instantly, and the rest doesn't seem to appear at all 13:52:37 <gergorycu> Hi there guys 13:52:41 <SpComb> that's partially a backend issue 13:52:42 <Eddi|zuHause> it looks like a swiss chese 13:52:43 <Ammler> it should be somehow possible to make that giant screen on a dedicated server 13:52:46 <gergorycu> I'm having a bit of a problem running the game on a friends computer 13:52:57 <gergorycu> I'm running 1.0.0-beta2 13:52:58 <SpComb> Ammler: I think it's possible if you run it with a blitter, haven't tried, though 13:53:20 <gergorycu> The rail construction icon is greyed out 13:53:40 <Eddi|zuHause> gergorycu: means you started too early for rail vehicles to be available 13:53:43 <gergorycu> In fact, anything specific to building transport is greyed out 13:53:58 <Eddi|zuHause> gergorycu: start in 1950 or load some NewGRFs 13:54:32 <gergorycu> Ahh 13:54:34 <gergorycu> Thank you 13:54:36 <gergorycu> That fixed it 13:54:50 <gergorycu> But, all road depots were also greyed out 13:54:54 <gergorycu> But roads were not 13:55:11 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, roads can be built without road vehicles available, since towns need them 13:55:12 <gergorycu> I suppose road stuff becomes vailable after a certain time too? 13:55:30 <gergorycu> So, you can play the game without being able to build any transport stuff? 13:55:33 <gergorycu> If you get my meaning 13:55:50 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, you can "play", but you cannot actually do anything 13:56:03 <gergorycu> Yeah, that's what I mean 13:56:08 <gergorycu> Ok, thank you so much for your help 13:56:17 <gergorycu> I was wondering if it were some strange glitch or something 13:56:31 <gergorycu> And I misread the starting date as "1950" when it was "1850" 13:56:32 <gergorycu> Silly me 13:56:35 <gergorycu> Thank you again 13:56:35 *** Tennel [~andreas@www.pf0hl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:56:44 *** gergorycu [3cf0a259@webchat.mibbit.com] has quit [] 13:57:48 *** TheMask96 [martijn@pride.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 13:57:50 *** Tennel [~andreas@pf0hl.de] has joined #openttd 14:01:02 *** fjb [~frank@p5485FA34.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 14:01:11 <Ammler> SpComb: something like openttd --create-giant-screen yoursave.sav > yoursave.png 14:01:58 <SpComb> Ammler: that would be useful, yes 14:03:09 *** andythenorth_ [~andy@87.112.6.57.plusnet.ptn-ag1.dyn.plus.net] has joined #openttd 14:03:38 *** andythenorth [~andy@87.112.6.57.plusnet.ptn-ag1.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 14:03:47 <SpComb> Ammler: it would also be neat if you could script a dedicated server to take a giant screenshot every 10 years or so 14:04:02 <Eddi|zuHause> pause the server first ;) 14:04:36 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-088-069-205-024.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 14:04:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Brianetta made "webcam" shots for a while, until the blitter rewrite killed them 14:05:25 <Xaroth> yeh :( 14:06:13 <Eddi|zuHause> you shouldn't need much more than changing the blitter to enable screenshots 14:06:30 <SpComb> the JS frontend's starting to be in pretty good shape now, apart from some bugs with the coordinates getting corrupted if zooming too fast 14:07:21 <Ammler> sometimes, my half screen is grey 14:07:43 <SpComb> Ammler: slow update or it stays stuck like that until you move it again? 14:08:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i think for me it was the latter 14:08:28 <SpComb> it's probably some kind of race-condition with the event handling :( 14:08:33 <Ammler> SpComb, yes, the latter 14:08:47 <SpComb> unless it has the window size wrong, a refresh should fix that 14:08:50 <Ammler> the faster I move the more gets grey 14:09:50 <SpComb> hmm.. grey as in the background color? 14:09:58 <Ammler> yes, I guess 14:10:00 <SpComb> sometimes I manage to select/higlight the <img> elements, which is annoying 14:10:20 <Ammler> yep, the get blueish... 14:10:25 <SpComb> ah yes 14:10:45 <SpComb> it's just the mouse cursor doing funny tricks, presumably in the area where the images aren't yet fully loaded 14:11:05 <SpComb> but as long as the #foo stuff is working, refreshing the page should get you back to where you were 14:11:06 <Ammler> or in that part, which get grey 14:12:14 <SpComb> would need some CSS trick to make the bits un-selectable 14:12:25 <SpComb> but, I must go, just realized I'm already late 14:13:05 *** George3 [~George@212.113.107.216] has joined #openttd 14:18:15 *** Tennel [~andreas@pf0hl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:20:08 *** George [~George@212.113.107.216] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:20:28 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-088-069-205-024.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:21:00 *** Tennel [~andreas@pf0hl.de] has joined #openttd 14:23:30 *** Madis [~stabuinte@82.131.16.156.cable.starman.ee] has joined #openttd 14:31:19 *** Tennel [~andreas@pf0hl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:31:26 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B76747.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:31:38 *** Timmaexx [~quassel@port-92-192-113-172.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 14:31:50 *** Tennel [~Tennel@pf0hl.de] has joined #openttd 14:31:56 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B76747.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 14:33:14 <Timmaexx> New Airports is really nice!+ 14:37:12 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-088-069-205-024.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 14:38:39 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... is there an ingame way to remove old AIs? 14:38:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i have NoCAB v19 and v336, that doesn't look right ;) 14:39:21 <glx> not ingame 14:40:00 <glx> looks correct if the savegame used v19 and a new AI started with v336 later 14:41:24 *** Dreamxtreme [~Dreamxtre@host81-135-85-113.range81-135.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: IRC is just multiplayer notepad] 14:41:36 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18763 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Feature [FS#3095]: rerandomise AIs on reloading (via the debug window) when they were randomly chosen 14:41:38 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B76747.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:41:40 *** Madis [~stabuinte@82.131.16.156.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]] 14:42:00 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B76747.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 14:43:21 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18764 /trunk/src/ (12 files in 2 dirs): -Fix [FS#3422]: split the (un)load ticks counter and signal wait counter; sometimes they might get into eachother's way 14:47:35 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B76747.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:47:57 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B76747.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 14:48:51 *** phalax [~phalax@84.19.128.89] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:50:42 *** Muxy [~Muxy@main.goulp.net] has joined #openttd 14:57:16 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18765 /trunk/src/graph_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3499] (r18750): crash when trying to show cargo payments when there are 'holes' in the cargospec array 15:00:45 <Timmaexx> Why does the colour of planes change, if they land on NewAirports? 15:03:51 <Rubidium> because of a bug? 15:05:35 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has joined #openttd 15:07:00 <Zuu> Timmaexx: Does they? 15:07:19 <Timmaexx> Zuu: Jep 15:07:28 <Zuu> Didn't notice.. 15:08:12 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B76747.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:08:19 <Timmaexx> I had a green FFP Dart wich is green like the colour of company and if it lands, and is on diagonal airport, its colour changes to some kind of darkgreen 15:08:28 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B76747.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 15:08:45 <Zuu> Did you manage to order an aircraft to go to the land based turbine? 15:10:07 <Zuu> hmm, yes, there seems to be something shading the airplane 15:15:58 <Zuu> Are you sure you had an FFP Dart? I can't order large aircrafts to the diagonal airport. 15:21:09 <Zuu> The water turbine is interesting. You can't join a dock with it nor an airport. 15:22:07 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B76747.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:22:21 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B76747.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 15:24:28 <Timmaexx> Think it was bakewell luckett lb9 sorry 15:26:00 *** Muxy [~Muxy@main.goulp.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:27:25 *** Muxy [~Muxy@main.goulp.net] has joined #openttd 15:28:46 *** Polygon [~Poly@x0581b.wh7.tu-dresden.de] has joined #openttd 15:33:45 <__ln> http://kuvaton.com/kuvei/404_train_not_found.jpg 15:33:53 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r18766 /trunk/src/ (rail.h table/railtypes.h train_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: Make train acceleration type (rail/elrail/monorail vs maglev) a rail type property 15:44:01 *** LadyHawk [LadyHawk@office01.ldhosting.com] has quit [Quit: A kleptomaniac is a person who helps himself because he can't help himself] 15:44:14 *** LadyHawk [LadyHawk@office01.ldhosting.com] has joined #openttd 15:48:15 *** roboboy [3aad2910@webchat.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 15:56:28 *** Timmaexx [~quassel@port-92-192-113-172.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:05:37 <Eddi|zuHause> :p 16:05:49 <Eddi|zuHause> damn 16:05:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i meant 16:05:53 <Eddi|zuHause> :o 16:13:45 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln: looks photoshopped... 16:16:44 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello080109200215.3.sc-graz.chello.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:19:32 *** Chris_Booth [~Chris_Boo@cpc4-newt30-2-0-cust18.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 16:19:47 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1FD7A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:34:24 *** Coco-Banana-Man [~Stephan.D@p5B2DBB3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 16:36:23 <Muxy> has someone recently compiled trunk with MSVC 2005 ? 16:39:48 *** zodttd [~me@user-0c90n1c.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:40:10 <Muxy> *compiled successfully i mean 16:48:40 *** Dred_furst [~Dred_furs@cpc3-pool3-0-0-cust999.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has joined #openttd 16:48:59 <Zuu> Not recently, migrated to 2008 some 6 months ago or so. 16:49:11 <Zuu> Did you just install 2005? 16:49:21 <Zuu> Ie, did you install the service pack? 16:49:55 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has joined #openttd 16:50:06 <Muxy> not installed recently, not modified since november 2009 16:50:47 <Muxy> release 8.0.50727.762 SP.050727-7600 pfff 16:52:49 <Muxy> lot of warning with var re-declaration in for loop with var declared in the function body 16:53:16 <Muxy> and 2 id not declared 16:53:37 <Muxy> coz of #define strangly placed 16:56:00 <Muxy> problem located into network/core/os_bastraction.h on line 43 #define AI_ADRCONFIG is not set in win32 16:56:31 *** a1270 [~Cheese@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Quit: a1270] 16:56:50 <Zuu> I can't help you, but for the person who maybe can help you, what version of OpenTTD is it that you try to compile? 16:57:04 <Muxy> trunk 16:57:52 *** Wizzleby [~wizzleby@pool-108-2-20-194.phlapa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:58:11 <Rubidium> 2005? Maybe the PSDK is too old? 16:59:19 <Muxy> Rubidium: problem in os_abstraction.h line 43 with #define AI_ADDRCONFIG who is not active in Win32 16:59:32 *** Zuu [~Zuu@c-f5f9e253.025-58-6e6b702.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:59:45 *** Wizzleby [~wizzleby@pool-74-109-42-212.phlapa.east.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 16:59:50 * Muxy thinks line 39 #else should be replaced with #endif 17:01:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Muxy: if it worked before, it is generally advised to find the revision that broke it by bisection 17:01:49 <glx> nothing changed there recently IIRC 17:02:04 <Muxy> yeap Eddi, good advise. 17:03:20 <Rubidium> Muxy: the problem is that with TOO old platform SDKs that isn't defined 17:03:20 * Muxy will load 0.7.5 release and check 17:03:44 <Rubidium> the existing define is for mingw/cygwin 17:04:17 <Rubidium> and it's quite simple... it's happened just before IPv6 support got into trunk 17:04:28 <Rubidium> so, a month of 8-ish ago 17:04:35 <Muxy> it means that AI_ADDRCONFIG is not used in Win32 MSVC 17:05:02 <Muxy> and should be defined in more recent SKD then 17:05:04 <Rubidium> as 0.7 was branched before IPv6 support, that doesn't have that code 17:05:35 <glx> Muxy: it is defined in platform SDK 17:05:50 <glx> and it is used :) 17:05:55 <Muxy> okay, then i will update my SDK as Rubidium said 17:07:25 <glx> I have 6.0A and it's ok there (SDK installed by 2008 express) 17:07:45 <Rubidium> "The AI_ADDRCONFIG flag is defined on the Windows SDK for Windows Vista and later" 17:08:06 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello080109200215.3.sc-graz.chello.at] has joined #openttd 17:11:07 *** Rubix`` [~wrqwer@cbl-dhcp-5-050.machlink.com] has joined #openttd 17:19:19 *** Cathal [~chatzilla@host86-145-109-168.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 17:19:50 <Cathal> hey 17:20:05 <Cathal> anyone there 17:20:18 <Alberth> no, everyone is asleep 17:20:33 <Cathal> alright, i'll call back another time :P 17:21:05 <Alberth> something you want to know? 17:21:18 <Cathal> Yeah, so r u involved in modifying OpenTTD? 17:21:34 <Alberth> no irc speak please 17:21:47 <Cathal> whats irc speak? 17:21:49 <Alberth> some times 17:22:02 <Alberth> 'words' like r and u 17:22:29 <Cathal> whats wrong with ircspeak, we r in an irc 17:22:35 <Alberth> it is hard to read 17:23:09 <Cathal> Alright, apologies. So what part of the project are you involved in my good man? 17:23:51 <Alberth> I changed all widgets in all windows, currently looking for something else 17:24:24 <sawtooth> how much for that widget in the window? 17:24:32 *** Dreamxtreme [~Dreamxtre@cpc2-stkp8-2-0-cust491.10-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 17:25:03 <andythenorth_> @seen yexo 17:25:03 <DorpsGek> andythenorth_: yexo was last seen in #openttd 18 hours, 52 minutes, and 29 seconds ago: <Yexo> andythenorth: it's be as simple as a single varaction2 (not a varaction2 chain, a single sprite) 17:25:32 <Alberth> andythenorth_: he was here this morning, but left 17:25:43 *** Singaporekid [~notme@cm141.epsilon84.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:25:47 <Cathal> Nice, sounds good. So has anyone here ever played the game Cossacks, I've started a mod project for it, wondering if anyone is interested in helping? 17:25:54 <Alberth> andythenorth_: he said 'see you on monday' 17:26:18 <andythenorth_> Alberth: thanks 17:26:28 <andythenorth_> New airports work in progress is *way* cool 17:26:36 <Alberth> Cathal: wouldn't #cossacks not be a better place to ask? 17:27:12 <Alberth> andythenorth_: yes the diagonal airport looks great :) I need to try it some time soon 17:28:27 <andythenorth_> If the state machine could handle loading while hovering....helicopter logging awaits :) 17:28:32 <andythenorth_> And heli-skiing :) 17:28:36 <Cathal> Just went there, but its empty, i'm sorry for the self promotion, just seeking some help, and everyone here does have some interest in game modification as a hobby, so it seems like a good place to start 17:29:30 <Alberth> Cathal: it could very easily be seen as spamming arbitrary channels with off-topic questions 17:29:46 <Alberth> Cathal: at least I interpret it as such 17:29:57 <Alberth> andythenorth_: all in good time :) 17:30:15 <andythenorth_> yes well, of course :) 17:30:24 <andythenorth_> drawing graphics would also take some time :) 17:30:45 <Alberth> andythenorth_: the whole state machine stuff worries me a bit, it looks so complicated to get right. 17:31:16 <andythenorth_> me too 17:32:35 <Cathal> I know, its too bad that IRC is so filled with trolls these days that genuine users have difficulty using them. I've already started off with the project, just looking for some help with ideas and such. Here is a link to the temporary home of the project until I can get a proper domain sorted (http://cossacksmodproject.blogspot.com/) 17:33:37 *** a1270 [~Cheese@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #openttd 17:33:56 *** Chruker [~no@port113.ds1-vj.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #openttd 17:35:14 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d199-126-251-5.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 17:37:46 <DaZ> y, cossacks were awesome. 17:40:15 <Ammler> doesn't look opensource or cross platform. 17:43:26 <Cathal> Really no-one is modifying Cossacks on a large scale, i think it has quite a lot of potential. Its not opensource but the developers are open to players modifying the game themselves, they released a modification utility pack, which is easy to use, it basically involves modifying .txt files, allowing almost any aspect of the game to be altered 17:44:24 <frosch123> .txt? why not .xml? 17:44:39 <frosch123> (sorry, insider joke) 17:45:59 <Eddi|zuHause> the modding ability of Civ4 is insane, they released basically the entire source code, except the graphics engine and the copy protection 17:47:17 *** Rubix`` [~wrqwer@cbl-dhcp-5-050.machlink.com] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: 540 seconds] 17:48:00 *** ecke [~ecke@188.75.128.2] has joined #openttd 17:50:39 *** sparrL [kvirc@c-24-98-228-62.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 17:50:43 *** fjb is now known as Guest1430 17:50:45 *** fjb [~frank@p5485FA4F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 17:51:15 <Cathal> Thanks for listening anyway guys, just come to the site if you change your mind http://cossacksmodproject.blogspot.com 17:51:32 *** Cathal [~chatzilla@host86-145-109-168.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has left #openttd [] 17:51:47 *** Cathal [~chatzilla@host86-145-109-168.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 17:51:58 *** Cathal [~chatzilla@host86-145-109-168.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has left #openttd [] 17:53:18 *** Guest1430 [~frank@p5485FA34.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:58:34 <Muxy> PSDK update sucessfull. back to adapt watch company to trunk 17:58:59 <andythenorth_> frosch123: some ponies escaped...http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=46689 17:59:52 *** PeterT [~PeterT@c-76-19-211-133.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 18:01:44 <PeterT> Where do I report somebody on the wiki named "LordAro"? 18:02:06 *** sparr [~sparr@c-24-98-228-62.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 18:03:42 <frosch123> LordAro, isn't that the one who disliked mixing his letters? 18:04:09 <PeterT> can you explain the phrase "mixing his letters"? 18:06:00 <frosch123> andythenorth_: already read it, and already collected the stuff that accumulated on my desk wrt. parameters over the last months, which resulted in a largerish text... might finish it after doing some other stuff :s 18:06:12 <andythenorth_> :) 18:06:43 <frosch123> PeterT: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=44805 18:06:57 <frosch123> andythenorth_: but mind, that i am usually better in talking than implementing :p 18:07:34 <PeterT> frosch123: I see. 18:07:35 *** rhaeder [~quix0r@188.109.251.228] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:07:42 <PeterT> So, How do I report him, exactly/ 18:07:53 <andythenorth_> frosch123: I have more newgrf sets finished in my brain than in reality 18:07:55 <andythenorth_> :P 18:07:59 <PeterT> He's been making images smaller so that they can fit HIS screen 18:08:18 <Rubidium> PeterT: what is there to report? 18:08:29 <PeterT> Rubidium: Above you 18:09:04 <Eddi|zuHause> PeterT: the historically proper action in wiki-evolution is an "edit war" ;) 18:09:34 <PeterT> or "who-can-make-the-most-reverts-in-a-day war" 18:09:59 <Rubidium> I can make the most reverts in a day 18:10:30 <PeterT> I know 18:10:33 <frosch123> why, an edit fight about 3 pixels? 18:10:37 <Rubidium> anyhow, what's the point in reverting something that makes the page look *way* better on his computer if it's a fracking 3 pixels? 18:10:48 <Rubidium> although, 3 pixels are not enough 18:11:01 <Rubidium> also... who's the person that just trashed a complete page without good reason? 18:11:27 <PeterT> if you're referring to my user talk, that would be me 18:11:54 *** sparr [~sparr@c-24-98-228-62.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc Insomnia 4.0.0, revision: 3763, sources date: 20091222, built on: 2010-01-08 08:47:55 UTC http://www.kvirc.net/] 18:14:52 *** a1270 [~Cheese@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Quit: a1270] 18:15:08 <Rubidium> also... deleting stuff from talk pages isn't needed at all. It's good to keep those as it describes the reasoning for things 18:15:11 <PeterT> Rubidium: The point was that I don't want LordAro on my page... at all 18:15:39 <PeterT> http://wiki.openttd.org/?title=Dual_Tetrathorp-Junction&curid=6779&diff=35325&oldid=35313 18:15:47 <Rubidium> it's not your page 18:16:00 <Eddi|zuHause> PeterT: with that attitude, please go sit in your corner and don't touch the wiki at all 18:16:46 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a wiki, it's per definition not anybody's page. 18:17:46 *** sparr [~kvirc@c-24-98-228-62.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 18:18:15 <PeterT> Eddi|zuHause: Then can I go to LordAro's userpage and call him stupid? 18:19:12 <Rubidium> well... it has been done and no amount of removing stuff (by you) gets it out of the history of the page 18:19:48 <PeterT> I didn't do it 18:20:12 <Eddi|zuHause> PeterT: insult is a crime in most jurisdiction, has nothing to do with who the page belongs to. 18:20:49 <Rubidium> and where on the page did he call you stupid? 18:21:33 <PeterT> "<PeterT> http://wiki.openttd.org/?title=Dual_Tetrathorp-Junction&curid=6779&diff=35325&oldid=35313 18:22:52 <Rubidium> so... then you could have asked for removing that instead of removing his valid comment (and all others) on the talk page 18:23:18 *** a1270 [~Cheese@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #openttd 18:24:46 <PeterT> that's true 18:25:55 <andythenorth_> PeterT: just go and play the game and get over it. life is too short for internet pissant nonsense 18:26:03 * andythenorth_ lost the game 18:29:55 <andythenorth_> Terkhen: for FIRS, is it the number of industries on the map, or the number of industry types that is disturbing? :o 18:32:39 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: my experience with ECS is that the increase in industry types also increases the raw number of industries on the map 18:32:55 <andythenorth_> Eddi|zuHause: true, but that's quite easily dealt with 18:33:08 <PeterT> Has anybody had success building a 64-bit build on a 32-bit system with MSVC? 18:33:18 <PeterT> (or any compiler, for that fact) 18:33:23 <andythenorth_> the probability is easy to control, and someone has written a nice method for scaling probablity with map size 18:34:02 <Eddi|zuHause> imho the method to scale with mapsize is one of the problems 18:34:32 <Eddi|zuHause> some people want bigger maps to have more stuff on it, and other people want bigger maps to have more space inbetween 18:34:34 <glx> PeterT: yes any user with full MSVC 18:34:54 <PeterT> Ah, not just Express Editions 18:35:09 <glx> express version don't have 64bit compilers 18:35:43 <andythenorth_> Eddi|zuHause: but there's an option :) "No. of industries" 18:37:29 <Eddi|zuHause> imho, the industry density options should include different scaling (e.g. "very low" doesn't scale at all above 256, "low" scales linearly, "high" scales quadratically) 18:38:11 <Terkhen> andythenorth_: both, but the number of industries on the map is easily solved 18:38:53 <andythenorth_> Terkhen: have you ever played with PBI? 18:39:05 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@94-224-31-113.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 18:39:24 <Terkhen> yes... but I didn't like stockpiling 18:39:34 <andythenorth_> fair enough 18:40:09 <andythenorth_> I am trying to judge how many industries is 'right' for basic FIRS. There is no typical player of course :) 18:40:13 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1FD7A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 18:41:24 <Terkhen> is this information available as a graph somewhere? http://tt-foundry.com/sets/FIRS/schema/industries 18:42:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i remember i had some tries with graphs in the thread 18:42:14 <andythenorth_> Terkhen: George3 did one, it's out of date now. 18:42:15 <andythenorth_> http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=109163 18:43:13 <Terkhen> thanks 18:43:16 <Eddi|zuHause> it's fairly difficult to get nice looking graphs out of graphviz 18:43:57 <andythenorth_> some thing like this is needed: http://hawkdawg.com/img/rrt/rt3/1024_Industry_Chart.jpg 18:44:20 <andythenorth_> Incidentally, RT3 has about 48 industries... 18:45:02 <andythenorth_> FIRS currently builds about 35. I've deleted about 9, and I'm trying to find more to delete. 18:45:09 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18767 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Fix: min/max income tooltips for the details performance statistics mentioned months whereas it should be quarters. 18:45:39 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r18768 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files): (log message trimmed) 18:45:39 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 18:45:39 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: croatian - 36 changes by 18:45:39 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: czech - 4 changes by ReisRyos 18:45:39 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: dutch - 61 changes by Hirundo 18:45:40 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_ 18:45:40 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: indonesian - 43 changes by fanioz 18:47:31 <andythenorth_> I think I'll get rid of the dairy farm / milk chain, that's two industries gone 18:48:49 <Terkhen> andythenorth_: I want to try FIRS anyways, without knowing its industry scheme I can't give an opinion about which industries should be removed... but I see a lot of industry chains that end up producing food so probably milk chain is a good option 18:54:27 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4db1b66b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 18:54:40 *** welterde [welterde@not.welterde.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:56:15 *** sparrL [kvirc@c-24-98-228-62.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:58:42 *** sparrL [kvirc@c-24-98-228-62.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 19:01:10 *** welterde [welterde@not.welterde.de] has joined #openttd 19:19:07 <PeterT> Any solutions to this? http://wiki.openttd.org/Talk:32bpp_Extra_Zoom_Levels#Problems_with_a_link 19:20:30 *** PeterT [~PeterT@c-76-19-211-133.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:21:26 <Hirundo> Link to 'Compiling' ? 19:23:44 <andythenorth_> proposal for *much* smaller FIRS http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=41607&p=847238#p847238 19:26:23 *** Dreamxtreme [~Dreamxtre@cpc2-stkp8-2-0-cust491.10-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:26:30 <Terkhen> water plant and water tower are missing 19:28:47 <andythenorth_> Terkhen: I've updated the proposal. The list given is Temperate / Arctic only. Tropic would include Water 19:28:52 <andythenorth_> thanks though :) 19:37:33 *** Rexxars [~rexxars@188.126.203.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:43:42 <fjb> Hm, basic FIRS and later themed add on packs? 19:44:12 <andythenorth_> fjb: something like that. I have a plan. 19:44:21 <andythenorth_> I couldn't care less about basic FIRS, it's boring 19:44:36 <andythenorth_> but it might be necessary 19:45:25 <Terkhen> for newbies like me :P 19:45:43 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, two levels of complexity sound ok 19:45:52 <sparr> which GRFs do I need to load with ECS to get vehicles that can carry the new resources (particularly sand)? 19:46:03 <Eddi|zuHause> in george's ECS you can reduce complexity by leaving out vectors 19:46:22 <Eddi|zuHause> sparr: depends 19:46:40 <Eddi|zuHause> sparr: easiest is probably "old wagons, new cargos" 19:46:42 <sparr> I played my first game with ECS recently, and couldn't transport sand 19:46:53 <andythenorth_> NARS 2 is pretty comprehensive 19:47:07 <andythenorth_> should support ECS fine 19:47:12 <Eddi|zuHause> the DBSetXL needs an ECS extension 19:47:33 <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise pretty much all major train sets should support ECS 19:48:34 <andythenorth_> hmmm....the thing that really sucks about my FIRS basic proposal is that it's just mostly the default industries 19:48:34 <fjb> And the popular road vehicle sets do. 19:49:10 <sparr> fjb: "the popular road vehicle sets" is unhelpful. pretend you're talking to someone who isn't already familiar with every GRF available 19:50:17 <fjb> sparr: Just take a look at GRF crawler. 19:50:23 *** DJNekkid [~tmsmje@static128-249.adsl.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:50:28 *** sparrL [kvirc@c-24-98-228-62.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:50:38 <andythenorth_> meh. if 9 out of 21 FIRS industries already exist in the default game, where's the interest? 19:50:51 * fjb is. 19:51:17 <andythenorth_> sparr was sulky :o 19:51:18 <sparr> fjb: and pick one at random? 19:51:27 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: i like PBI because it does not add too much clutter, like ECS does. 19:51:39 <sparr> andythenorth_: thanks, I'll use NARS 19:51:41 <andythenorth_> sparr: try eGRVTS and HEQS. Or LV4 19:51:54 <Eddi|zuHause> it does fine with adding complexity without adding a lot more industries 19:52:02 <sparr> it seems like there should be some sort of dependency system, so that the game would warn a player before starting a game with ECS without vehicles that can transport ECS cargos 19:52:12 <fjb> FIRS has nicer graphics and industries changing over time were announced as a feature. 19:52:23 <Eddi|zuHause> sparr: that is impossible to decide... 19:52:38 *** Sweet|Home [~Sweet@cpc2-port3-0-0-cust22.cos2.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:52:42 <sparr> or if not a dependency system then an actual check... list of cargos, list of transportable cargos 19:53:01 <sparr> hell, you could just count... if there are 17 cargo types and only 12 transportable cargos, something is wrong 19:53:23 <Eddi|zuHause> sparr: again, that is impossible, because available cargos might be dependent on some conditions 19:53:36 *** sparrL [kvirc@c-24-98-228-62.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 19:53:37 <fjb> sparr: Do you need somebody who binds you shoe laces? 19:53:45 <sparr> fjb: yes, would you? :-p 19:53:50 <sparr> Eddi|zuHause: what sort of conditions? 19:54:00 <fjb> Definitely not. 19:54:10 * Terkhen wonders if OpenGFX+ will have standard-like vehicles to carry new cargos 19:54:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: no, as that is a change of gameplay, which cannot be part of a base set 19:54:58 <Terkhen> OpenGFX+, not OpenGFX 19:55:03 <Eddi|zuHause> ah... 19:55:09 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure what that is ;) 19:55:31 <Rubidium> whatever they want to be in OpenGFX but can't put in it 19:55:49 <sparr> fjb: I wanted to try ECS. The documentation (read: forum post) for ECS said I should be good with any subset of the ECS GRFs. I naively assumed that the game wouldn't be dumb enough to start an unplayable game 19:55:55 *** JigabuMemin [~JigabuMem@201.170.174.27.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has joined #openttd 19:56:17 <sparr> fjb: assuming such a check could be implemented, which may be impossible, what is the use case where such an unplayable game is a desirable outcome? 19:57:29 <sparr> JigabuMemin is spamming 19:57:41 <JigabuMemin> I am not 19:58:32 <fjb> sparr: The game is not unplayable only because not every cargo can be transported. And why should somebody who wants to only transport some of the cargoes be forced to load other vehicle sets? 20:00:08 <sparr> fjb: "some" is random, and possibly inaccurate. are there GRFs that replace all of the cargos? or that replace all of the base trains with non-standard cargo trains? 20:01:10 <sparr> or, more generally, can there be? 20:01:10 <Eddi|zuHause> sparr: the problem is not "are there GRFs" but rather "could there possibly be GRFs" 20:01:14 <andythenorth_> fjb: for FIRS basic around 3 industries would change between 1900 and 1930, that's about it for changing 20:01:18 <sparr> Eddi|zuHause: yes 20:01:26 <Eddi|zuHause> as in "does the GRF spec allow implementing this" 20:01:46 <sparr> if it does, then such an unplayable game is possible, and the argument in favor of the check I am advocating is stronger 20:02:13 <Eddi|zuHause> sparr: there is no warning if you start too early either. 20:02:34 <sparr> yes, that is also quite annoying, I've done that a couple of times (once with different GRFs) 20:03:10 *** andythenorth_ [~andy@87.112.6.57.plusnet.ptn-ag1.dyn.plus.net] has left #openttd [] 20:03:33 *** andythenorth_ [~andy@87.112.6.57.plusnet.ptn-ag1.dyn.plus.net] has joined #openttd 20:03:36 *** andythenorth_ [~andy@87.112.6.57.plusnet.ptn-ag1.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Quit: andythenorth_] 20:03:51 *** andythenorth [~andy@87.112.6.57.plusnet.ptn-ag1.dyn.plus.net] has joined #openttd 20:03:53 <sparr> taking a step back, I think the more general issue that I am trying to point out is that there is no way to get most sorts of information about GRFs (their compatibility with each other being one case) without playing through the game 20:05:03 <sparr> I never have any idea if/when new vehicles are coming, or which wagons work with which locomotives, or whether a particular GRF just adds new things or also removes old things 20:05:29 <andythenorth> sparr: the better grf sets include a read me 20:06:06 <sparr> how do you know if they do, via the online content service? or find it, if they do? 20:06:25 <sparr> I happen to be comfortable digging around in ~/.openttd, but I think I am unusual in that respect. 20:06:37 *** JigabuMemin [~JigabuMem@201.170.174.27.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has quit [autokilled: Do not spam other people. Mail support@oftc.net if you feel this is in error. (2010-01-09 20:06:37)] 20:06:44 <andythenorth> it's a valid point, we discussed it a few days ago 20:06:47 <andythenorth> no solution though 20:07:14 <SpComb> GRFs are confusing, yes 20:09:50 <fjb> And it's just a game. So play around with it. 20:10:31 <SpComb> well, it's annoying to notice you're missing some wagons late in the game 20:10:45 <SpComb> and various gotchas like food in alpine 20:11:13 <sparr> what SpComb said 20:11:19 <sparr> if I knew up front, it wouldn't be a problem 20:11:19 *** George3 is now known as George 20:11:30 <sparr> but when I find out 8 hours into a game... :( 20:11:58 <SpComb> but basically, you depend on the NewGRF projects themselves to get that info 20:13:25 <sparr> they have no easy way to get it to me 20:13:32 <sparr> easy for them and/or easy for me 20:15:21 *** heffer [~felix@ip-88-152-182-156.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #openttd 20:16:29 <sparr> anyway, on another topic... 20:17:14 <sparr> a message that tells you when a delivery would have made more money had it been shorter. thoughts? 20:17:36 <Eddi|zuHause> wtf? 20:19:11 <sparr> there's a message when a vehicle has negative yearly profit 20:19:20 *** Dreamxtreme [~Dreamxtre@cpc2-stkp8-2-0-cust491.10-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 20:19:28 *** LadyHawk [LadyHawk@office01.ldhosting.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:20:21 <sparr> i recently became aware of the nature of the cargo delivery value function, and the quirk that shorter deliveries pay more in some situations. i'd like to know that on a per-delivery basis, without having to fake a measurement tool and do a bunch of math manually 20:21:44 <andythenorth> sparr: use the cargo graphs? 20:22:06 <sparr> andythenorth: there was a patch to provide such graphs, but it's a few thousand revisions out of date 20:22:22 <sparr> unless I am missing something 20:22:30 <andythenorth> what's wrong with cargo payment rate graphs? 20:23:03 <sparr> their mathematical implications are not clear 20:23:09 <fjb> andythenorth: You have to think by your own. 20:23:17 <sparr> *I* can't do that math in my head 20:23:20 <sparr> and I'm pretty good at math 20:24:04 <sparr> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=31984 <-- this 20:24:54 <sparr> the math involved in determining that ~140 tiles is the optimal delivery distance for Valuables (at 33km/h) is nontrivial 20:25:43 *** sparrL [kvirc@c-24-98-228-62.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:25:49 <Rubidium> the optimimum is, at least for slow vehicles 4000-ish tiles 20:25:57 <sparr> ? 20:26:32 <sparr> oh, you mean the part of the graph after the bump 20:26:32 <Rubidium> travel time is capped at something like 2 game years 20:27:16 <sparr> valuables at 33km/h pay more for 140 tiles than for 300 tiles 20:27:52 *** PeterT [~PeterT@c-76-19-211-133.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 20:28:09 <Rhamphoryncus> sparr: is that per-tile, per-time, per-investment, or per-production? 20:28:11 <Rubidium> so for the profit calculations the travel time is at that, so if a vehicle at speed N makes 400 tiles in 2 years, making 4000 tiles would take 20, but the vehicle would be paid as if it was going at speed N*10 20:29:24 <sparr> Rubidium: yes, for very slow vehicles. for some definition of very slow. 20:30:20 <PeterT> Hirundo: Thanks for fixing the wiki 20:30:24 <PeterT> Didin't think of that ;-) 20:30:28 <sparr> Rhamphoryncus: all of the above, i think 20:31:25 <Rhamphoryncus> hrm right, they're related 20:32:02 *** sparrL [kvirc@c-24-98-228-62.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 20:32:03 <Rhamphoryncus> My tendency has been to use super long routes 20:32:14 <sparr> as has mine 20:32:21 <sparr> for VERY long routes it can pay off 20:32:26 *** Splex [~splex@n219078148053.netvigator.com] has joined #openttd 20:32:28 <sparr> but there is a large gap where it pays less 20:32:43 <SpComb> how much does it matter? 20:33:05 <sparr> SpComb: considering ONLY income, factors of 2-3. 20:33:17 <sparr> SpComb: considering also all the extra infrastructure being wasted on the longer deliveries... more. 20:33:31 * andythenorth grumpy 20:33:52 *** slas [~AndChat@79.102.4.80] has joined #openttd 20:34:22 *** slas [~AndChat@79.102.4.80] has quit [] 20:34:33 <Rhamphoryncus> If you have an existing long track, but can only afford one train.. that'd push even more towards a shorter route, wouldn't it? 20:34:44 <sparr> yes 20:35:07 <sparr> if you aren't delivering the full capacity of the industry, that also makes the shorter route a stronger candidate 20:35:19 <sparr> if your track is at its train carrying capacity, then too 20:36:14 <Terkhen> andythenorth: because of the simplified FIRS? 20:36:23 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d199-126-251-5.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: Rhamphoryncus] 20:36:57 <sparr> fjb: the math is complex enough, and the variables poorly documented enough, that I am not even sure that I am doing it right. 20:37:17 <sparr> I am relatively certain that the SHAPE of the data I am getting is right (that is, the peak and valley do exist), but their locations could be incorrect 20:37:24 <andythenorth> Terkhen: yes. I think there's a way to do it right, but I'm not sure what yet. You're by no means the only one who would like a simpler version. 20:40:16 <sparr> SpComb: taking a real game example... delivering 100 units of coal at 144km/h (UKRS? cap), at 90% effective speed (accounting for track wiggles, turnarounds, etc), 660 tiles pays about 900, while 1100 tiles pays about 00 20:40:22 <Terkhen> the biggest problem is knowing what the user was really playing while debugging future problems? 20:40:38 <andythenorth> Terkhen: no, I think that's solvable 20:40:42 <sparr> SpComb: knowing this fundamentally changed my network design in two games 20:40:49 <andythenorth> the biggest problem is designing an entertaining gameplay :) 20:41:15 <sparr> 512x512 maps, so I WAS making some 900+ tile deliveries, until I learned this 20:42:18 <andythenorth> it's been suggested that Railroad Tycoon would be an ideal model for a 'simpler' new industry set 20:42:31 <andythenorth> but RT2 has 35 industries and RT3 has about 48 20:42:52 <andythenorth> I am trying to get FIRS down to about 24 20:43:15 <fjb> andythenorth: Don't hunt every suggestion. Railroad Tycoon is not TTD. 20:43:32 <Terkhen> I have never played any RT 20:43:34 <andythenorth> fjb: oddly enough, FIRS is almost entirely based on RT3 20:43:42 * andythenorth has played many hours of RT3 20:44:09 <andythenorth> About 24 is also the suggested number of industries for FIRS by players who want a simpler version 20:44:19 <andythenorth> so there are various contradictions I am trying to resolve 20:44:50 <Terkhen> and how will you add all other industries to the simple version? other GRFs? 20:44:56 <andythenorth> Parameter 20:45:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i have nothing against a "simple" and a "complex" version 20:45:18 <andythenorth> It will actually be nicer than just 'simple' and 'complex' 20:45:45 <andythenorth> With planetmaker's help, we have a way to use a single parameter to change several aspects of the gameplay 20:46:03 <andythenorth> this means FIRS will feature various full 'cargo economies' 20:46:25 <andythenorth> The cargo payment rates will vary, there will be some special 'bonus' industries, and the probability of industries on the map will vary 20:46:36 <PeterT> have you seen this? this is an amazing markup of new GUI: http://homepage.mac.com/jbadcock/openttd/openttd.html 20:46:45 <sparr> fjb: now, if YOU can do the math in your head, I would appreciate a confirmation that I am doing it right. even if you can, that doesn't make it any less hard for the rest of us. and if you can't, then your "you have to think by your own." was both condescending and hypocritical. 20:47:51 <fjb> andythenorth: That makes already the base set interesting. 20:48:19 <Eddi|zuHause> sparr: if you think it can be improved, how about you start implementing, instead of shouting around your incapacities? 20:48:31 <sparr> Eddi|zuHause: if I think what can be improved? 20:48:35 <andythenorth> fjb: the base set will just be parameter 0 - default, with normal cargo payment rates 20:48:57 <andythenorth> the other values for that parameter will be much more interesting... 20:49:09 <Terkhen> sounds good :) 20:49:25 <sparr> I am already trying to bring the New Graphs patch up to date, but it's old and fails a lot 20:50:11 <Eddi|zuHause> the window system changed a lot, you're probably going to have to rewrite most of it 20:50:34 <fjb> sparr: I make so much money in every game that I don't care for the optimum distance. And experience and some thinking tells me that it is unwise to send cargo which looses its value fast on long routes with slow vehicles. 20:50:42 <andythenorth> one more FIRS question: why would you even try FIRS instead of playing default industries? (I ask as I have an idea about an alternative base set of industries) 20:51:12 * fjb would. 20:51:23 <andythenorth> fjb: why though? 20:51:49 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4db1b66b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: bis dann] 20:51:54 <fjb> I like your graphics better. 20:52:32 <sparr> fjb: actually, the cargos that lose value fast are more appropriate for long routes and slow vehicles. so much for experience and thinking. 20:52:36 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: for me the reason to stop using default industries is that the industry chains are "simple" and nothing forces you to deliver to more than one secondary industry per map 20:52:44 <andythenorth> If FIRS didn't feature most of the default industries, would that appeal more or less? 20:52:50 *** Rubix`` [~wrqwer@cbl-dhcp-5-050.machlink.com] has joined #openttd 20:53:05 <andythenorth> No fricking power station for example :P 20:53:24 <sparr> fjb: the curve goes up to a peak, then down, then up again with no cap. if the first peak is low/narrow enough, then the second upwards slope is the best case 20:53:36 <SpComb> hmm, MB's alpine grf readme doesn't really clarify the food situation 20:53:39 <Terkhen> because it is standard-like enough for me (no stockpiling, no GRF combinations) but adds new possibilities to the game, and more possible lines at a single game 20:53:42 <sparr> fjb: but if the first peak is high/wide, like it is for the non-perishable resources, then that peak is the best case 20:53:49 <SpComb> it just says that they need food, but it doens't say you can produce or transport it :P 20:54:08 <Terkhen> <andythenorth> If FIRS didn't feature most of the default industries, would that appeal more or less? <--- as long as some necessary roles are fulfilled (moneymaker, etc), I don't think it would matter 20:54:10 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: i think that alpine 0.2 comes with the readme for alpine 0.1 20:54:29 <SpComb> http://openttdcoop.org/newgrfs/ottdc_grfpack/2_landscape/alpine/alpineclimate_en.html 20:54:45 <sparr> fjb: i assume you have a lot more experience with openttd than i do. that you would get this wrong illustrates how non-obvious the behavior is 20:54:49 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: my knowledge about alpine food comes from confronting HIM with it 20:55:34 <fjb> sparr: You also have to take the vehicle running costs over that time into account and the turn around time. 20:55:36 <SpComb> but doesn't temparate have some kind of snow line as well now? 20:55:50 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: no, only in TTDPatch 20:56:01 <SpComb> confusing 20:56:51 <SpComb> but alpine + PBI = no-no 20:57:04 <andythenorth> in default TTD, transporting oil pretty much always sucks. Would it be too weird if oil refineries produced fuel and chemicals with ni input cargo? 20:57:12 <andythenorth> IRL lots of oil is delivered by pipeline anyway 20:58:32 <Terkhen> I have tried a lot of times transporting oil with ships... very frustrating, I wouldn't miss it 20:58:32 <sparr> fjb: running costs are linear. turn around time is effectively constant. i fail to see how either of those are factors? 20:58:32 <fjb> We need pipelines. 20:58:43 <andythenorth> fjb: we do. but we don't :P 20:59:27 <andythenorth> fjb: bingo, a way to implement pipelines 20:59:34 <andythenorth> use a railtype 20:59:52 <sparr> fjb: regardless of all the factors... the point remains that for SOME cargos, on SOME map sizes, delivering halfway across the map is more profitable than delivering all the way across the map. and figuring that information out is Hard. 20:59:54 <fjb> sparr: Just try it out. 20:59:58 <SpComb> and invisible vehicles 21:00:02 <andythenorth> use invisible trains. Make them maximum speed, no runnign cost 21:00:11 <andythenorth> oh yes what SpComb said 21:00:21 <andythenorth> you'd still have to route vehicles 21:00:27 <SpComb> and get them back 21:00:40 <andythenorth> it could be implemented with newgrf, no patch needed 21:00:44 <Eddi|zuHause> sparr: imho that's a "bug", not a "feature" 21:00:47 <sparr> I doubt there's anyone in here who could come up with the optimal delivery distances without at least a calculator 21:01:20 <sparr> Eddi|zuHause: I am inclined to agree, esp considering that it makes perishable goods BETTER to deliver long distances 21:01:36 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: a pipeline doesn't have "infinite speed" 21:01:38 <sparr> Eddi|zuHause: that is, coal is better at 500 tiles than at 1000, but fruit is better at 1000 than 500 21:02:03 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: why not code the grf and set the correct speed then :D 21:02:44 <sparr> Eddi|zuHause: which seems to be opposite the original intent 21:03:06 <fjb> andythenorth: Pipelines have also to be routed. So no problem. 21:03:16 <andythenorth> someone get coding then... 21:03:22 <andythenorth> let me know when it's done :) 21:03:39 <sparr> pipelines don't have to run both directions :) 21:04:03 <Terkhen> use trams then 21:04:25 *** ecke [~ecke@188.75.128.2] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:04:31 <andythenorth> hmm.. would need new road types for that. What's peter1138 up to right now? 21:05:08 *** LadyHawk [LadyHawk@office01.ldhosting.com] has joined #openttd 21:05:08 <fjb> One way vehicles. 21:06:08 <andythenorth> fjb: not in the current newgrf spec :o 21:07:22 <Eddi|zuHause> sparr: like i said before, your criticism lacks constructivity 21:07:35 <sparr> Eddi|zuHause: ?? 21:08:03 <sparr> I am tring to get the New Graphs patch to work. It didn't get into trunk last time, probably won't again this time, but at least I'm trying. 21:08:21 <sparr> I'm not the one who brought up the cargo payment rates being a bug 21:09:08 * Terkhen is out of things to code 21:09:29 <SpComb> Terkhen: fractional days in timetables 21:10:12 <Eddi|zuHause> sparr: then would you accept a feature request: show not only the theoretical delivery graph, but also a histogram about how actual deliveries in {the last | this} year position on that graph 21:10:14 <Terkhen> I understand a lot of parts of the code by now, but I still have to understand how timetables work ingame :P 21:10:44 <sparr> Eddi|zuHause: I can try. that will require a lot more changes, but it doesn't seem impossible 21:10:52 *** Dreamxtreme [~Dreamxtre@cpc2-stkp8-2-0-cust491.10-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Hi, I'm a quit message virus. Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over the world of IRC.] 21:11:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: the ITiM patch needs updating to the new window system, and parts of it have gone to trunk, so that needs fiddling 21:11:37 <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't need much knowledge about how the timetables actually work ;) 21:13:40 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: alternately, a system how to introduce more fine grained payments (values < 1?) 21:14:01 *** Tennel [~Tennel@pf0hl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:14:09 <Terkhen> I would find frustrating to code something that I don't understand... I get that feeling too much already when coding for my classes 21:14:42 <Terkhen> why do you need decimal payments? 21:14:52 <Eddi|zuHause> both internal representation, conversion factor and rounding for other currencies and a decimal separator for display 21:15:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: daylength could benefit from it 21:15:42 <Terkhen> I thought that was already handled, besides showing decimal payments at the GUI 21:16:09 <Eddi|zuHause> not that i know 21:17:19 <Terkhen> I still have to try the latest daylenght patch (it seems simpler), but the other ones seem overcomplicated to me 21:17:30 *** sparrL [kvirc@c-24-98-228-62.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:18:35 <Eddi|zuHause> all daylength patches i have seen had the problem that monthly/yearly costs were multiplied by daylength, instead of delivery costs reduced 21:18:46 <Terkhen> I almost completed a conversion of the standard vehicles and industries to simulate daylength, but I was missing a crucial feature 21:20:47 *** a1270 [~Cheese@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Quit: a1270] 21:20:54 <Terkhen> that sounds reasonable, I suppose delivery costs are not reduced because of the internal representation not allows operating with smaller values 21:21:50 *** Tennel [~Tennel@pf0hl.de] has joined #openttd 21:21:51 <andythenorth> Terkhen: do you understand anything of the code that supports nfo / newgrf? 21:21:54 <Eddi|zuHause> exactly. i once tried to reduce payment, but my trams ended up getting 0 payment 21:23:12 <Terkhen> andythenorth: only really simple stuff, I know how to add vehicle properties to action 0 and to callback 36 21:23:25 *** ecke [~ecke@188.75.128.2] has joined #openttd 21:23:32 <Terkhen> and just because I only had to add new options to existing code 21:23:57 <andythenorth> oh well. 21:24:35 <andythenorth> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=46689 21:24:51 <andythenorth> I was wondering about industry var 68 21:24:59 <andythenorth> and extending it... 21:25:33 <SpComb> Terkhen: simpler is an understatement 21:28:35 *** heffer [~felix@ip-88-152-182-156.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 21:28:49 <Terkhen> SpComb: just a single parameter to influence everything, right? 21:28:58 *** heffer [~felix@ip-88-152-182-156.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #openttd 21:29:14 <SpComb> Terkhen: well, in terms of the actual .patch 21:30:04 <Terkhen> are you planning to introduce more parameters? 21:30:43 <SpComb> not really 21:30:53 <SpComb> although it may end up being a necessity 21:30:58 <SpComb> but it's something to avoid 21:31:24 <Terkhen> sounds good then, I'll try it in my next game 21:33:26 <Eddi|zuHause> i always modded my daylength patches to not add the value to the savegame, makes porting the savegame to newer versions easier 21:34:34 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 21:34:53 *** Tennel_ [~andreas@88.150.10.254] has joined #openttd 21:35:19 <andythenorth> http://tt-foundry.com/sets/FIRS/schema/basic_firs_proposal#proposal_2 21:35:21 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: I did consider that, but breaking savegame compat is something you tend to end up doing anyways :( 21:36:01 <Terkhen> my builds always break savegame compatibility, as a result I usually don't bother about porting my games to new versions 21:36:55 *** sparrL [~kvirc@c-24-98-228-62.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 21:38:12 <asilv> andythenorth: is there need for both gravel and sand? as they are quite similar cargoes and could be imo merged into one more generic cargo? 21:38:19 *** Dred_furst [~Dred_furs@cpc3-pool3-0-0-cust999.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:38:30 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: did you find a good fix for the timetable autofill? 21:38:43 *** Tennel_ [~andreas@88.150.10.254] has quit [] 21:38:57 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: i didn't search for one 21:38:59 *** fjb [~frank@p5485FA4F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:39:10 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: likely there's one in ITiM 21:39:37 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: I mean, didn't you patch in something yourself? 21:39:39 *** ccfreak2k [~ccfreak2k@4chan.fm] has quit [Killed (NickServ (Too many failed password attempts.))] 21:39:49 *** ccfreak2k [~ccfreak2k@4chan.fm] has joined #openttd 21:40:03 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, replacing it by ORIG_DAY_TICKS 21:40:11 *** kasuga [~osaka@81.28.163.84] has joined #openttd 21:40:26 <Eddi|zuHause> actually, no 21:40:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i added a new constant 21:40:36 <Eddi|zuHause> and set that to 100 ticks 21:40:37 <andythenorth> SpComb: gravel should have had a question mark next to it. The main reason is that IRL cement requires both sand and gravel. I want sand for the Glass Works. So...gravel could be optional. 21:40:49 <Eddi|zuHause> makes for nicer numbers ;) 21:41:03 <Terkhen> I just remembered... does anyone knows how could I force the inlining of these templated functions? http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=846432#p846432 21:41:07 <SpComb> well, I'm considering posting a patch for ORIG_DAY_TICKS 21:41:20 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: did it work ok in terms of actual in-game use? 21:41:50 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: i have seen nothing wrong, but i didn't play much since then 21:42:00 <Terkhen> I want to optimize the unified acceleration code as much as posible... as it stands now I don't think it is usable in games with a lot of vehicles 21:43:06 <Terkhen> well, it is usable, I meant preferable 21:45:34 <SpComb> Terkhen: fractional timetables! 21:45:47 <SpComb> c'mon, all my timetables show up as "0 days" now 21:51:20 *** fjb [~frank@p5485D97C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 21:52:26 <andythenorth> Terkhen: how would this industry llist look to you? http://tt-foundry.com/misc/FIRS_basic_proposal_2.png 21:52:30 <andythenorth> Fun or too many? 21:54:31 <Terkhen> SpComb: I'd prefer to get feedback at the projects I still have to finish (which at this point is mostly all of them) before starting new ones... I'll have to learn how timetables work sooner or later, though 21:54:38 *** Rubix`` [~wrqwer@cbl-dhcp-5-050.machlink.com] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: 540 seconds] 21:55:06 <Terkhen> andythenorth: looking good, enough to be challenging, but not too many 21:56:03 <andythenorth> There would be about 2 or 3 more 21:56:21 <Terkhen> I'm missing a power plant... coal is used at the metal foundry? 21:56:27 *** PeterT [~PeterT@c-76-19-211-133.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:57:17 <andythenorth> coal used at steel mill, cement plant. maybe at the fuel depot 21:57:25 <andythenorth> I'm so bored of the mine-> power plant chain 21:58:03 <Terkhen> me too... there is no moneymaker chain then? 21:58:26 <andythenorth> money maker chain is whatever I set highest cargo rate to :) 21:58:39 <sparrL> delivering water at 32km/h there is a payment peak around 100 tiles, then it goes down and comes back up around 420 21:58:48 <sparrL> so delivering between 100 and 420 tiles is not worthwhile 21:58:50 <sparrL> i THINK 21:59:07 <andythenorth> Terkhen: money maker chain in FIRS basic would probably still be coal so it's familiar to players 21:59:42 <andythenorth> Coal -> steel mill (steel) -> machine shop (engineering supplies) -> coal mine (production booster) 21:59:58 <Terkhen> as long as it is not "dump coal here, receive money"... :P 22:00:03 <andythenorth> or coal -> steel mill (steel) -> foundry (goods) -> town 22:00:15 <andythenorth> or one of two other routes to get the other two production boost cargos :) 22:00:28 <glx> I hope it's simpler than ECS :) 22:00:57 <andythenorth> glx: interesting. Would you be someone who would like FIRS to be 'simple' ? :) 22:01:24 <glx> not simple but understandable by a normal human :) 22:01:31 <Terkhen> being simpler than ECS doesn't means that it is simple :P 22:01:46 <andythenorth> glx: what's complex about ECS for you? 22:03:26 <glx> too many complex chains, all depending on each other 22:04:05 <andythenorth> glx: what makes a good chain for you? 22:04:42 <frosch123> andythenorth: pony manual is ready :p 22:04:59 <glx> <andythenorth> or coal -> steel mill (steel) -> foundry (goods) -> town <-- that is a good one 22:05:29 <frosch123> euh, this channel is quite spammy today, isn't it 22:05:36 <glx> but any chain not needed 2 other chains is good too :) 22:05:38 <sparrL> fjb: can you confirm those numbers? 22:05:50 <andythenorth> glx: coal -> steel mill would produce some steel 22:05:51 <glx> *needing 22:05:58 <andythenorth> coal + iron -> steel mill produces more steel 22:06:10 <sparrL> just coal produces steel? 22:06:12 <andythenorth> yes 22:06:14 <sparrL> i would think the other way around 22:06:18 <andythenorth> well, it's less fun 22:06:24 <sparrL> just iron produces some, iron+coal produces more 22:06:40 <andythenorth> that would be more realistic. but not as fun in the game 22:07:41 <andythenorth> glx: 100t coal produces 50t steel. 100t iron produces 50t steel. 100t steel + 100t iron produces 150t steel. And there are no stockpile limits.... 22:07:49 <fjb> sparrL: I can not confirm anything without more parameters. Which vehicle set, which landscape between both points, which game year? 22:08:09 <frosch123> sounds fine. there would be no steelmill on the map if it has not already some basic supply of steel and coal 22:08:20 <frosch123> the task of the player is to improve the supply 22:08:33 <sparrL> fjb: what effect do those factors have? landscape is somewhat variable, but assume i will build the shortest flattest route possible 22:08:56 <sparrL> vehicle set is eGRTVS i think 22:09:38 <andythenorth> frosch123: "If the host cannot interpret that information (as it is a build without YASP2), it just ignores it and continues." 22:09:48 <andythenorth> would immediately be valuable for something like new airports 22:10:00 <sparrL> for the sake of discussion, assume a completely flat roat with no turns, going straight from the pickup to the drop. so the vehicle is doing its max speed for all but one tile of the distance 22:10:46 <fjb> sparrL: The game calculates Manhattan distance, but some vehicles can go diagonal, others can not. And the landscape has a big influence on the real traveling time. 22:10:47 <frosch123> he, if newairports isn't available earlier :p 22:10:52 <andythenorth> :P 22:11:23 <sparrL> fjb: I am aware of that, but those are factors that are a lot easier to guesstimate once the theoretical perfect case is known 22:11:27 <frosch123> i had ECS and daylength in mind 22:11:52 <fjb> sparrL: And then there are some game parameters like realistic acceleration, breakdowns and congestion on that line. 22:12:02 <glx> anyway the main problem with ECS is the interdependance between all vectors 22:12:04 <sparrL> fjb: but I am not sure I am doing the math right even in the perfect case. no breakdowns, no decelleration, no congestion. 22:12:22 <fjb> sparrL: Your "perfect case" without that parameters is pretty useless. 22:12:46 <sparrL> "pretty useless" is more useful than not having a solution for ANY case 22:13:03 <sparrL> which is where I am now 22:14:29 <fjb> The main problem with George's ECS is that the map is empty after a few years (at least it was the last time I played with his ECS). 22:14:39 <sparrL> I am not sure that I am doing the vehicle speed (km/h) to effective speed (tiles/day) conversion correctly, or that I am accounting for other conversion factors (2.5 game days per day-in-the-payment-function?) correctly 22:14:55 <sparrL> including other factors like efficiency and congestion is much farther down the line, i have to solve these problems first 22:15:44 <fjb> sparrL: Your mathematics have the value of an untested backup. No backup is way better than en untested because you know you have no backup and do not falsely rely on something which is not working at all. 22:16:23 <sparrL> fjb: the solution to the perfect case sets a boundary on the real cases 22:16:30 <sparrL> i know i can't ever make MORE money than in the perfect case 22:18:08 <andythenorth> frosch123: ideas look good. 22:18:31 <sparrL> "Note: In this page when spoken about 'days', in fact 2.5 days are meant. So if days_in_transit = 4, then you use 4 in the calculations that follow, but actually the cargo is already 10 days in transit. " <-- very confusing 22:18:40 * SpComb wonders if he should start doing MSVC builds himself 22:19:59 <Terkhen> SpComb: prepare to get bored with long compile times 22:20:47 <SpComb> what, you mean VS2008 running in a vbox isn't as fast as native gcc? :( 22:21:35 *** PeterT [~Peter@c-76-19-211-133.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 22:21:58 <Terkhen> actually, I doubt that VS2008 running natively on windows 7 is faster than gcc running in virtual box 22:22:22 * SpComb presses the button on PeterT that does new MSVC builds 22:22:50 <PeterT> SpComb: ERROR: command or variable not found 22:23:02 <sparrL> fjb: right now I have an almost perfect case in game, and it doesn't match up to my calculations, so I think I am doing it wrong 22:23:10 <SpComb> PeterT: have you got your .patch issues figured out? 22:23:15 <PeterT> SpComb: Seriously, I'm not at my MSVC build station 22:23:17 <Terkhen> hmmm... no matter what I try, I can't optimize TrainLocoHandler anywhere beyond 18% slower than trunk... too much cost for the unified code 22:23:21 <PeterT> And yes, I will be able to fix them 22:23:23 <sparrL> "almost perfect case" = road vehicle traveling in a straight line with no terrain, constant speed for all but the first and last tile of the trip 22:23:32 <sparrL> less than one day load and unload times 22:24:22 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Administr@89.246.203.184] has joined #openttd 22:24:37 <sparrL> fjb: do you think there are significant other factors in that case? 22:26:04 <SpComb> PeterT: also, will you be able to post non-rar packages? :/ 22:26:10 <PeterT> No 22:26:21 <PeterT> Rar is the only thing that will fit on tt-forums 22:26:21 <SpComb> didn't you get a new users.tt-forums.net site? 22:26:25 <PeterT> yes 22:26:29 <PeterT> I can do this 22:26:31 <SpComb> I'd even preferr .7z over .rar 22:26:42 <peter1138> .tar files! 22:26:42 <PeterT> post rar on ttf, then zip on user page 22:26:45 <SpComb> but a [url=foo.zip] would be even better 22:26:59 <fjb> sparrL: That shows that your calculations don't match real life. 22:27:06 <SpComb> post zip on user page, then [url] on ttf? 22:27:19 <PeterT> zip on user page, rar on ttf 22:27:31 <PeterT> but I will only keep the latest build of each 22:27:32 <sparrL> fjb: quite right. sadly, I have found no one who knows how to do the correct calculations 22:27:33 <SpComb> rar and link? 22:27:38 <PeterT> YES 22:27:51 <PeterT> refer to http://users.tt-forums.net/petert/dev 22:28:03 *** heffer [~felix@ip-88-152-182-156.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:28:11 <Terkhen> you should keep all PDB files, otherwise you won't be able to debug crashes in older builds 22:28:18 <PeterT> I know 22:28:21 <PeterT> I will be doing that 22:28:25 <sparrL> the wiki contradicts itself a little, but I can't get either of the formulae to work 22:28:29 <PeterT> the only thing i'm not keeping is the actual BUILD 22:29:04 <andythenorth> ummm. I don't really like 32bpp graphics, but this could change my mind: http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/8926/openttdbadbrettmodtown.jpg 22:29:40 <Terkhen> I think I'm going to park the improved acceleration for rvs patch for a while... trying to optimize already optimized code is too frustrating 22:30:01 <sparrL> andythenorth: i think that level of detail is a matter of the new zoom levels, not 32bpp... you could do similar with 8bpp 22:30:06 <SpComb> andythenorth: surprisingly old, seeing how many people only saw it now (me included...) 22:30:23 <glx> Terkhen: too bad it's extra zoom level 22:30:25 <andythenorth> Terkhen: don't forget it for ever ;) 22:30:36 <frosch123> andythenorth: i would like to see you playing in that zoomlevel :p 22:31:09 <Terkhen> andythenorth: I will keep updating it, it's just that I don't know how to fix the unified code performance problems 22:31:27 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Administr@89.246.208.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:31:28 <andythenorth> frosch123: the weird thing is the 3D guys can produce much more detail than I can in about 10% of the time 22:31:43 <andythenorth> Terkhen: I know, sometimes projects need a break 22:32:18 <glx> <sparrL> andythenorth: i think that level of detail is a matter of the new zoom levels, not 32bpp... you could do similar with 8bpp <-- not doable with the game palette 22:33:02 <Terkhen> my problem with 32bpp graphics is that finding a complete set between a hell of contradictory packages and lost tar files is too frustrating 22:33:40 <glx> the main problem is finding sets for clean releases :) 22:34:03 <andythenorth> the main problem is that it doesn't feed my nostalgia for 1995 style 22:34:12 <andythenorth> :P 22:34:17 <sparrL> glx: can i find that palette anywhere? 22:34:40 <Terkhen> that too 22:34:40 <glx> http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=PalettesAndCoordinates 22:35:58 <Terkhen> http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/browser/trunk/docs/ottd-colour-palette.gif 22:36:25 <frosch123> http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/advertise.png <- i have also a link :p 22:36:55 <frosch123> sparrL: did you saw the opengfx faces and the 32bpp originals they were created from? 22:37:52 <sparrL> frosch123: no 22:38:17 <sparrL> glx: of course there would be quality loss, but i don't see why you couldn't get that level of detail with a smaller palette 22:38:40 <sparrL> heck, i think it would be neat to have high-resolution greyscale graphics :) like the early newspaper graphics 22:39:15 *** Bluelight [~Ivan@170.80-203-76.nextgentel.com] has joined #openttd 22:40:11 <andythenorth> 256 shades of grey? Interesting. Probably the best comment you've made today sparrL 22:40:12 <andythenorth> :P 22:40:22 <andythenorth> (seriously, that does appeal) 22:41:07 <andythenorth> sparrL: could be done with newgrf 22:41:20 <peter1138> back in the day, games that ran at 640x480 *were* high resolution 22:41:23 <sparrL> not familiar with all the graphics code, 256 might be a stretch, but 16 shades of gray still looks nice 22:41:34 <sparrL> happy medium, say 128 or 192 22:41:59 <peter1138> you can have 256 greys... easily with 32bpp 22:42:07 <sparrL> well sure 22:42:59 * andythenorth tries desaturating a screen grab....contrast would need some work 22:43:23 <andythenorth> nice idea, not convinced :) 22:43:29 <sparrL> lol 22:43:37 <sparrL> didn't really mean low-res greyscale 22:43:49 <sparrL> it kinda went with my previous "you could have high resolution high detail graphics in 8bpp" 22:44:06 <peter1138> just zoom that screenshot out to 25% 22:44:18 <peter1138> you get a feel for normal zoom 32bpp graphics 22:44:29 *** fjb [~frank@p5485D97C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:44:40 *** oskari89 [~oskari89@212-149-205-119.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: Utm Aœ - Aja 35] 22:47:34 * SpComb wonders how to make autosaves more frequent than one month 22:48:26 <SpComb> as the autosave is currently done in OnNewMonth 22:48:57 <peter1138> move it to OnNewDay and adjust 22:49:08 <SpComb> how do you express "x months" in days? :( 22:49:22 <George> glx: The main feature of ECS is the between-vector dependences are soft. You can producu some amount of cargoes with the simple chain, but adding cargo from other chan increases production. Looks like you missed it 22:50:54 <George> andythenorth: Have a look at PM 22:51:15 <andythenorth> I am replying now 22:51:19 <frosch123> SpComb: use 1/32 months :p 22:51:21 *** fjb [~frank@p5485F6DC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 22:52:32 *** Dreamxtreme [~Dreamxtre@host81-135-85-113.range81-135.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 22:52:47 *** Rubix`` [~wrqwer@cbl-dhcp-5-050.machlink.com] has joined #openttd 22:52:58 <andythenorth> George: replied 22:53:49 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-088-069-205-024.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Something strange must have happened...] 22:54:28 <SpComb> frosch123: doesn't really help, since 1/32th of a month isn't something you can trivially determine 22:56:13 <SpComb> perhaps hack it by using negative numbers for days, eh? :) 22:58:21 <frosch123> well, depends what intervals you are heading for. i.e. do you really want to save on 1st jan, 21th jan, 10th feb,... or rather on 1st and 15th independent of month length 22:58:43 <SpComb> well, it'd be nice if the monthly autosave was always on the 1st 23:02:44 *** KritiK [~Maxim@78-106-179-16.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:06:21 <Bluelight> Is it normal that the server is not in the list until after some time? Actually it's more like it's randomly showed and not.. 23:08:26 <sparrL> what causes the rail button to un-grey while all four types of rail are still greyed out? 23:11:35 <andythenorth> good night 23:11:36 *** andythenorth [~andy@87.112.6.57.plusnet.ptn-ag1.dyn.plus.net] has left #openttd [] 23:12:09 *** Polygon [~Poly@x0581b.wh7.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:12:36 *** Polygon [~Poly@x0581b.wh7.tu-dresden.de] has joined #openttd 23:14:04 *** George [~George@212.113.107.216] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:14:36 *** uberubert [~uberubert@95.169.45.94] has joined #openttd 23:16:26 <Terkhen> good night 23:16:29 *** Terkhen [~Terkhen@25.69.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: ...] 23:18:11 *** George [~George@212.113.107.216] has joined #openttd 23:18:43 <frosch123> he, does opengfx contain rivergraphics in the extra grf? :p 23:19:36 <PeterT> what does this output mean in MSYS? 23:19:37 <PeterT> G src\newgrf_commons.h 23:19:48 <PeterT> occured when using svn up 23:19:54 <PeterT> after reverting a patchfile 23:20:04 <frosch123> then you did not properly revert it 23:20:07 *** slas [~chatzilla@25.201.216.81.static.s-o.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #openttd 23:20:12 *** Chris_Booth [~Chris_Boo@cpc4-newt30-2-0-cust18.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:20:21 <frosch123> "G" means local modifications were successfully merged automatically 23:20:40 <frosch123> try "svn status" and "svn diff" 23:20:43 <Bluelight> Is it normal that the server is not in the list until after some time? Actually it's more like it's randomly showed and not.. 23:20:58 <__ln> *shown 23:20:59 <Bluelight> Rubidium ? 23:21:06 <frosch123> no idea, the website might quite likely be cached 23:21:45 *** Bluelight [~Ivan@170.80-203-76.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]] 23:21:51 *** Bluelight [~Ivan@170.80-203-76.nextgentel.com] has joined #openttd 23:21:55 * frosch123 wonders how static-safe river graphics really are 23:22:46 <Bluelight> I think the server list is very active.. 23:24:13 <sparrL> I think that there are more versions of openttd with active servers/players than almost any other game 23:24:33 <sparrL> a very patch-ly diverse community 23:25:19 * PeterT has cargodist and IS merged 23:25:27 <PeterT> I didn't merge it, though 23:25:42 *** uberubert [~uberubert@95.169.45.94] has left #openttd [] 23:29:18 <peter1138> frosch123, very, i'd imagine 23:34:02 <frosch123> yeah, there are no gameplay affecting properties/callbacks or random triggers 23:37:38 <SpComb> PeterT: aparently it isn't a very difficult merge 23:37:47 <PeterT> why? 23:37:51 <PeterT> You've merged it/ 23:37:59 <PeterT> I got bigos to merge it for me :-D 23:39:07 <SpComb> no, but I'm about to give it a shot 23:39:19 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:40:32 <SpComb> looks like a pretty clean patch 23:41:36 <PeterT> Ok 23:41:40 <SpComb> one trivial #include line failed 23:42:55 <PeterT> what rev is this for? 23:43:24 <SpComb> openttd-is2-r18696-14597.p1.diff and cargodist-r18750 23:43:27 <SpComb> compiled fine 23:43:35 <PeterT> can I get a diff of that? 23:43:40 <PeterT> please? 23:43:53 <SpComb> merge it yourself 23:44:05 <SpComb> you have to add one #include to src/economy_func.cpp yourself 23:44:27 <PeterT> what #include file, that's the problem? 23:44:34 <SpComb> make that src/economy.cpp 23:44:41 <SpComb> PeterT: look at the output from patch 23:44:52 <SpComb> i.e. `vim -p src/economy.cpp*` 23:45:05 <SpComb> there's a .rej file with the hunks that failed, you can then merge them into the .cpp yourself 23:45:19 <PeterT> SpComb: Which did you apply first? 23:45:28 <SpComb> I applied it to a cargodist git checkout 23:45:34 <PeterT> oh 23:45:37 <PeterT> I don't have that 23:45:48 <PeterT> I only have cargodist patchfile, is that ok? 23:46:09 <fonsinchen> Rubidium: r18763, the splitting of time_counter - did the previous situation trigger the v->time_counter != 0 assertion in LoadUnloadVehicle in economy.cpp? 23:46:52 <PeterT> SpComb: I can't do that, I don't have a working git 23:47:03 <PeterT> I'll try on Linux, tommorow 23:47:28 <SpComb> PeterT: it should work just the same if you apply the cargodist patch 23:47:48 *** asilv [~as@h-62-142-160-55.joensuunelli.fi] has quit [] 23:48:16 <PeterT> SpComb: But, against what revision? 23:48:34 <PeterT> r18750 (cargodist's patch revision) or IS2's patch revision? 23:49:38 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fd752.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:51:03 <SpComb> r18750 23:51:31 <SpComb> PeterT: you can just fiddle around and see what works, merging patches isn't such a big deal if they're well-written and don't step on eachothers toes too much 23:52:28 <SpComb> how do you open the induvidual settings GUI? 23:53:24 <SpComb> doesn't exist anymore? 23:56:05 <SpComb> oh right, got left out