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00:00:17 *** ^Spike^ [~spike@d200003.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:07:23 *** Chris_Booth [~Chris_Boo@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Good Bye] 00:08:22 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.21.227.88] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 00:41:05 *** fanioz [~fanioz@180.214.233.1] has joined #openttd 01:41:30 *** ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:02:58 *** Xrufuian [~Xrufuian@pool-98-119-100-9.lsanca.btas.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 02:34:46 *** fjb [~frank@p5DDFF38E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:40:40 *** Xrufuian [~Xrufuian@pool-98-119-100-9.lsanca.btas.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: User quit] 03:32:36 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:c4c3:21bb:34ed:3fdb] has quit [Quit: bye] 03:36:16 *** llugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8f5db.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 03:43:33 *** lugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8d9d9.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:56:09 *** DDR [~DDR@66.183.113.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:13:45 *** llugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8f5db.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:15:28 *** ecke [~ecke@188.75.128.2] has quit [Quit: more listen, more understand, more know] 04:55:33 *** Eddi|zuHause2 [~johekr@p54B757D3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 04:58:45 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has quit [Quit: Sleep.] 05:02:22 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B75A55.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:05:33 <Terkhen> good morning 05:05:56 <GhostlyDeath> I think i'll port OpenTTD to a new platform 05:06:02 <GhostlyDeath> the Linux terminal in 80x25! 05:06:28 <GhostlyDeath> the orthographic map shall be placed on it's side 05:07:12 <GhostlyDeath> It will be a new way to play the game 05:09:51 <GhostlyDeath> Would use ncurses 05:13:09 <Terkhen> how would it display tile height? 05:15:03 <ccfreak2k> GhostlyDeath, actually, that would be a new video driver, not a new platform per se. 05:15:09 <ccfreak2k> It would just run in the terminal. 05:16:02 <GhostlyDeath> Terkhen: press some special key maybe 05:16:14 <GhostlyDeath> Kinda like how transparency works? 05:16:27 <GhostlyDeath> and display height in numbers 05:18:25 *** elmz [~elmz@184.213-167-126.customer.lyse.net] has joined #openttd 05:21:26 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:33:01 *** Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe83de00-38.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 05:33:25 <Terkhen> I guess the people that can make sense of nethack or dwarf fortress could make sense of this too :P 05:35:12 <Mortomes> dwarf fortress <# 05:35:13 <Mortomes> <3 05:59:36 *** Mortomes [~mortomes@i15108.upc-i.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:05:59 *** elmz [~elmz@184.213-167-126.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:18:44 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e0b8955.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:27:19 *** ^Spike^ [~spike@d200003.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 06:29:09 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 06:33:40 <planetmaker> good morning 06:41:06 *** davis [~b@p5B289B01.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:42:03 *** davis [~b@p5B28BED8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 06:42:16 <Terkhen> good morning planetmaker 06:56:04 *** Mortomes|Work [~MortomesW@mail.qps.nl] has joined #openttd 06:58:33 <planetmaker> Terkhen: what was actually the typo in OpenGFX+Trains? I don't see a difference :-) 06:58:54 <planetmaker> (but I found another typo in the German translation) ;-) 07:04:27 *** X-2 [~X-2@5ED67292.cm-7-7b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:04:57 *** JVassie [~James@92.27.149.231] has joined #openttd 07:05:23 <dihedral> morning 07:11:15 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause 07:17:19 *** fanioz [~fanioz@180.214.233.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving, good bye] 07:23:32 <Terkhen> planetmaker: Zeyphris -> Zephyris 07:23:59 <Terkhen> also, the string STR_NAME_COVERED_PIECE_GOODS_WAGON does not seem to be used 07:42:01 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has joined #openttd 07:45:44 <planetmaker> that's true. Not yet :-) 07:49:13 *** X-2 [~X-2@a83-163-133-37.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 08:01:33 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1A847.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 08:13:45 *** X-2 [~X-2@a83-163-133-37.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:14:02 *** X-2 [~X-2@a83-163-133-37.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 08:34:30 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 09:25:29 *** X-2 [~X-2@a83-163-133-37.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:27:27 *** X-2 [~X-2@a83-163-133-37.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 10:05:26 *** Sacro [~ben@150.237.48.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:16:12 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1A847.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Progman] 10:16:27 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1A847.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 10:18:18 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC2C8E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 10:22:04 *** Sacro [~ben@150.237.48.99] has joined #openttd 10:41:00 *** Mortomes|Work [~MortomesW@mail.qps.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:41:15 *** Mortomes|Work [~MortomesW@mail.qps.nl] has joined #openttd 10:51:02 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.21.227.88] has joined #openttd 11:11:44 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4db0fa82.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 11:11:47 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4db0fa82.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:12:04 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4db0fa82.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 12:01:05 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:ed84:2b94:539d:c753] has joined #openttd 12:01:08 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 12:19:09 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF9507.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 12:22:17 <planetmaker> is there a nice shorthand in (ba)sh to get all files modified in, say, the last 5 minutes? 12:25:44 <FauxFaux> zsh has all kinds of crazy glob syntax, but it's harder to understand than the perl. 12:36:04 <Yexo> something with stat -c %Y <file> (print modification date of <file> in seconds since epoch) and date +%s ? 12:38:09 <dihedral> find can probably only give you the last hour 12:38:46 <Xaroth> you can use find ? 12:39:25 <Xaroth> find / -type f -mtime -7 12:40:46 <Xaroth> er, it'd be 12:41:03 <Xaroth> find / -type f -mmin -5 or something like that 13:00:24 <planetmaker> Xaroth, thanks a lot. That does the trick :-) 13:00:30 <Xaroth> :) 13:00:47 <planetmaker> though I replace / by . ;-) 13:01:12 <planetmaker> Just need to copy the output of my create_plots script to my paper folder ;-) 13:05:04 *** FauxFaux [faux@molotov.compsoc.warwick.ac.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:05:50 <dihedral> could someone confirm something for me? 13:05:54 <dihedral> someone like planetmaker ? :-P 13:05:56 <dihedral> http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4158#comment8911 13:06:13 <dihedral> i cannot believe that rcon move requests a password, that does not sound correct to me 13:07:15 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:10:04 <planetmaker> dihedral, which password? That of the company? 13:10:09 <glx> hmm move just moves without checking anything else 13:10:13 <glx> IIRC 13:10:14 <planetmaker> It doesn't need that. The rcon pw probably 13:11:07 <glx> anyway dihedral, why is there an empty comment ? 13:11:34 <dihedral> glx, mobile phone sent the post the next morning when i opened my browser again :-( 13:11:40 <dihedral> so i deleted it's content 13:11:54 <dihedral> as i faild to spot a 'delete' link 13:12:00 <glx> ok deleted it 13:12:07 <dihedral> thank you glx :-) 13:12:24 <dihedral> move executed server side should indeed not prompt for the password 13:12:38 <dihedral> in fact - actually it is the client that promts for the password, not the server 13:12:46 <dihedral> at least this counts for the move command 13:13:18 <glx> I guess it's easy to check that on ottdcoop server 13:13:37 <glx> as the admins are here ;) 13:14:22 <planetmaker> we don't use rcon pw, but the IRC bridge exclusively 13:14:53 <planetmaker> but when executed as server (that's what the IRC bridge does), I don't need a pw. 13:19:16 <dihedral> thank you planetmaker :-) 13:20:09 <glx> rcon pw "cmd" should do the same as cmd on the console 13:22:47 *** avdg [~avdg@94-227-100-192.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 13:28:22 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 13:28:40 <Chris_Booth> afternoon all 13:31:11 <dihedral> glx, the move command reacts differently if executed by a client or the server 13:36:12 <planetmaker> dihedral, even if executed with rcon pw? 13:36:24 <planetmaker> if the latter is given, it shouldn't 13:36:44 <dihedral> erm 13:36:58 <dihedral> rcon sends the entire 3rd parameter to the server in order to be executed there 13:37:05 <dihedral> it has no contact to the client any longer 13:38:05 <planetmaker> meaning? 13:38:23 <dihedral> the client only executes part 1 of that command 13:38:26 <dihedral> namely 'rcon 13:38:27 <dihedral> ' 13:38:45 <dihedral> arg 2 is the password, sent in the packet PACKET_CLIENT_RCON to the server 13:38:54 <dihedral> part 3 is the command + all it's args the server should handle 13:39:08 <dihedral> the client does not touch this piece of information 13:39:59 *** Spoons [faux@molotov.compsoc.warwick.ac.uk] has joined #openttd 13:40:26 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@grm-lovas-128-39-61-228.studby.uia.no] has joined #openttd 13:41:23 <glx> dihedral: by console I mean server console 13:42:00 <dihedral> :-) 13:43:07 <Belugas> hello 13:43:45 * dihedral waves 'hello' to sir Belugas 13:43:50 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:45:01 * Belugas shakes hand with dihedral 13:45:36 <dihedral> @seen hand 13:45:36 <DorpsGek> dihedral: I have not seen hand. 13:45:40 <dihedral> ah 13:45:43 <dihedral> :-P 13:47:07 <Belugas> so litteral... 13:52:43 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:54:19 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #openttd 13:55:04 *** chris [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 13:57:09 * planetmaker wonders whether something litteral means something like 'wasted' ;-) 13:57:19 * planetmaker steals a 't' of Belugas and waves 'hello' 13:59:10 <dihedral> :-P 13:59:12 <dihedral> hihi 14:03:48 <Belugas> so.. i've got dihedral 14:03:52 <Belugas> s ahdn, 14:03:55 <Belugas> hand 14:04:01 <Belugas> and now planetmaker HAS MY T 14:04:15 <Belugas> and i've got a CAPS LOCK 14:04:20 * Belugas goes back to sleep... 14:04:27 <dihedral> lol 14:05:08 *** chris is now known as Chris_Booth 14:05:44 *** lobster [~michielbi@86.89.201.189] has joined #openttd 14:10:58 <planetmaker> sleep well :-) 14:15:23 <TrueBrain> so who suited up today? 14:15:43 <Chris_Booth> I am suiting up this evening 14:15:54 <Chris_Booth> but i assume the answer is you TrueBrain 14:16:04 <TrueBrain> I am not, not really 14:16:08 <TrueBrain> but it is suit-up day 14:16:23 <Chris_Booth> ooh I didn't know that 14:16:31 <TrueBrain> http://www.suitupday.com/ 14:16:47 *** Chris_Booth_ [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 14:16:52 <TrueBrain> bad website, given it is not updated in a long time 14:16:53 <TrueBrain> but okay 14:17:54 <TrueBrain> http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=129322155887&index=1 14:17:58 <TrueBrain> for those with facebook :p 14:18:28 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:18:29 *** Chris_Booth_ is now known as Chris_Booth 14:19:31 <planetmaker> sounds like bullshit ;-) 14:19:45 <planetmaker> or like viral marketing :-) 14:19:48 <planetmaker> hey TrueBrain :-) 14:19:50 <TrueBrain> nope 14:19:55 <TrueBrain> and it is pretty funny :D 14:20:14 <planetmaker> I don't need a special day for that ;-) 14:20:31 <dihedral> <planetmaker> or like viral marketing :-) <- LOL 14:20:46 <dihedral> "roundabound" 14:22:01 <Chris_Booth> I like the roundabout 14:22:06 <Chris_Booth> its a great pub 14:23:17 <davis> Barney Stinson is amazing TrueBrain :D 14:23:39 <TrueBrain> they wrote his character really well, yes 14:23:51 <davis> well it realy fits Neil Patrick Harris 14:24:14 <TrueBrain> except he is gay of course :p 14:24:40 <davis> well yeah , but i don't think it shows 14:24:44 <Chris_Booth> see when I found that out after 5 years of watching how I met your mother 14:24:47 <TrueBrain> it does show :D 14:24:50 <TrueBrain> but that makes it fun, tbh 14:24:55 <Chris_Booth> It ruined my view of the show 14:25:10 <Chris_Booth> Its like my head of department at university is called sam green 14:25:14 <davis> seriously Chris_Booth ? 14:25:23 <Chris_Booth> and for 2 and a half years sam green was a boy 14:25:29 <Chris_Booth> I then go to meet him 14:25:35 <Chris_Booth> and find out he is a girl 14:25:48 <Chris_Booth> the just upset my view of life for a few minutes 14:25:52 <davis> I think Neil patrick harris is one amazing actor , regardless of his sexuality :I 14:25:59 <Chris_Booth> davis: hasn't stoped me watching 14:26:00 <TrueBrain> you regret sending those endless porn mails now? 14:26:04 <davis> good :D 14:26:16 <Chris_Booth> just shocked me 14:26:41 <TrueBrain> davis: it doesn't make him bad; it is just funny that you said the role fits him; but his role is to be a womanizer. While he is gay. The irony ;) 14:26:54 <davis> truely is 14:27:06 <davis> but e.g that both NPH and his role Barney Stinson are a big fan of magic 14:27:21 <davis> suits (hehe) somewhat well 14:27:24 <Chris_Booth> majic rules 14:27:51 <davis> and if you see NPH in interviews outside of how i met your mother he's often very much like Barney , imho 14:29:18 <davis> eitherway , great show 14:30:51 <Chris_Booth> you been watching the new season davis ? 14:32:02 *** bryjen [~bryjen@63.147.94.149] has joined #openttd 14:32:07 <davis> uhm 14:32:11 <davis> which one is the newest? 14:32:30 <davis> VI right? 14:32:54 <davis> 6* 14:33:41 *** elmz [~elmz@184.213-167-126.customer.lyse.net] has joined #openttd 14:38:24 *** Devroush [~dennis@ip-83-134-172-177.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #openttd 14:39:28 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.21.227.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:50:46 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.22.66.123] has joined #openttd 14:51:00 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 14:54:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea why the windows people make everything so difficult... 14:54:37 <Eddi|zuHause> colleague gave me this relais, which is connected through usb. 14:55:04 <Eddi|zuHause> he reported that the thing sometimes works, but sometimes it freezes his computer... 14:55:18 <Eddi|zuHause> he gave me the manual for it... 14:55:29 <Eddi|zuHause> it consists of 10 pages about "how to install on windows" 14:55:42 <Eddi|zuHause> and then the linux part basically consists of two lines: 14:56:00 <Eddi|zuHause> "switch on: echo -e '\xff\x01\x01' > /dev/ttyUSB0" 14:56:06 <Eddi|zuHause> "switch off: echo -e '\xff\x01\x00' > /dev/ttyUSB0" 14:56:43 <Eddi|zuHause> and it totally simply and trivially works... 14:57:08 <bryjen> ten pages because the windows instructions have to include pictures? ;) 14:59:20 <SpComb> until some weird console-kit-daemon or whichever thinks it's a braille device and tries to offer up a terminal on it 15:04:07 <Eddi|zuHause> now... where do i get a windows from where i can diagnose his freezing problem? 15:06:04 <Eddi|zuHause> but there's something seriously wrong if the longest part for installing a device is scrolling past the windows instructions... 15:08:14 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@88.130.182.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:08:44 <planetmaker> why is that wrong, Eddi|zuHause ? 15:09:03 <planetmaker> Would you have it explain on ten pages the meaning of "on" and "off" states? 15:09:34 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: longer than finding a matching USB cable in your room? 15:10:46 <planetmaker> That depends upon "your" and "room". I guess in the cases of the average 'you' and 'room' present in this channel: the search time might be considerably shorter than averages taken over the mean of the population out there 15:14:12 *** V453000 is now known as Guest2603 15:15:10 *** Mortomes|Work [~MortomesW@mail.qps.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:20:24 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f4540.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 15:22:51 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: omg, can you write a more annoying sentence? :D 15:22:58 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has joined #openttd 15:23:37 *** xiong [~xiong@netblock-68-183-253-246.dslextreme.com] has joined #openttd 15:24:30 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, sure ;-) 15:24:35 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-78-102-180-216.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 15:24:43 <TrueBrain> yeah, indeed, you just did :p 15:24:50 <planetmaker> :-P 15:25:05 <TrueBrain> (that was easy :p) 15:25:39 <xiong> Hi, guys. 15:25:56 <TrueBrain> hello uknown entity on the web 15:25:59 <TrueBrain> how can we help you on this day? 15:27:01 <xiong> I've been talking to a few guys outside about this orthogonal/diagonal issue. Nobody can believe that you all haven't settled on a convention -- that an entire game has been built without clear consensus on whicth way is North. 15:27:13 *** perk11 [~perk11@81.17.157.195] has joined #openttd 15:27:23 <xiong> s/whicth/which/ 15:27:51 <Eddi|zuHause> the comments in the code say north is top of the screen 15:28:03 <Eddi|zuHause> tile (0,0) is north 15:28:04 <TrueBrain> is anyone in doubt what is north? 15:28:18 <Eddi|zuHause> but north has nothing to do with diagonal... 15:28:27 <xiong> Eddi|zuHause, I think you just said three contradictory things. 15:29:08 <xiong> I agree that 'north is top of screen' is reasonable -- no more logical than any convention but it's what I assumed. 15:29:11 <TrueBrain> and it is weird, why wouldn't we have settled on a convention? I mean .. after all this game is real and operational, so we did settle on something :) 15:29:31 <xiong> Seems to me, last time I was here, there was quite a bit of thrashing. So, here we go. 15:29:44 <TrueBrain> not often we throw things away 15:30:01 <Eddi|zuHause> well, the coop people had used a different notion of what is "north" in their games, but who cares about them... 15:30:14 * TrueBrain looks around 15:30:18 <xiong> A single tile is not north; north is a direction. Do you mean the tile in the corner of the map, which is northernmost, is (0, 0)? I'll buy that and that's fine. 15:30:46 <frosch123> how about DIR_N then? 15:30:47 <Eddi|zuHause> let's call it "north pole". better? 15:31:02 <TrueBrain> frosch123: lets not go there :D 15:31:05 <xiong> Eddi|zuHause, Do you understand that I'm more or less ruthlessly opposed to iconoclasm? 15:31:16 <TrueBrain> in the old days, every entity had a different value for directions :D 15:31:26 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i don't understand anything you say. 15:31:41 <xiong> If the convention is that top-of-viewport is north, then we don't want to say or even hint at some alternate north. 15:32:11 <frosch123> TrueBrain: did you discuss that all day? 15:32:14 <planetmaker> xiong, the problem is that "diagonal" requires a frame of reference. And there are two: screen + grid. Which are off by 45° or so 15:32:18 <xiong> That takes the discussion into the ditch, a total waste of time. North is north is north is north is top of viewport is top of screen is facing away from player. 15:32:19 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I did what? 15:32:34 <Eddi|zuHause> xiong: the code fairly unanimously sais that, but we can't force the players to believe anything 15:32:34 <frosch123> "you" can also be plural 15:32:41 <frosch123> but yes, you too :p 15:32:46 <xiong> planetmaker, That is why I'm trying to nail this to the wall so it doesn't wiggle. 15:32:56 <frosch123> you are sysop, so it is your fault. are you used to anything else? 15:32:57 <planetmaker> good luck :-) 15:33:01 <xiong> I don't care about players! I don't care about iconoclasts! 15:33:06 <TrueBrain> frosch123: well, you asked it at me, so I at least have to be included in the you :) 15:33:18 <TrueBrain> frosch123: still I wonder I discuss 'what' all day? :) 15:33:22 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, yes, they did. And probably (some) still do. 15:33:26 <planetmaker> I tried to change that :-) 15:33:34 <frosch123> he, about what is north :p 15:33:40 <planetmaker> :-P 15:33:49 <planetmaker> Where's North on the North pole? 15:33:56 <TrueBrain> frosch123: no clue, just arrived :) 15:34:03 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: in the south :D 15:34:04 <xiong> There is an orthodoxy which states that north is top of viewport. If any discussion is going to move forward, then the orthodox viewpoint must be considered the only viewpoint. Okay? 15:34:06 <Eddi|zuHause> the north pole isn't even at the north pole 15:34:26 <frosch123> planetmaker: ask your "Erdinduktor" 15:34:40 <planetmaker> hehe @ frosch123 :-) 15:34:42 <Eddi|zuHause> and obviously, at the magnetic north pole, the needle points down... 15:34:48 <planetmaker> indeed... good point: North will be down 15:34:50 <xiong> I can't possibly interrupt every single description of directions on the board to state and restate the basic premise. 15:34:52 <TrueBrain> lol @ Eddi|zuHause 15:34:54 <TrueBrain> down :D 15:35:08 <TrueBrain> guys ... seriously. ... I think xiong is smoking something 15:35:19 <xiong> No, I'm not. I don't do that. 15:35:20 <TrueBrain> or maybe it has babblefish between what comes in and out 15:35:58 <xiong> Nor am I an it. I choose to regard you as a person, you might extend me the same courtesy. 15:35:59 <planetmaker> xiong, you'll just have to live with the fact that you'll (always) have to define which reference frame you use for directions 15:36:07 <planetmaker> Definitions won't help that fact 15:36:17 <xiong> planetmaker, No. You choose. 15:36:19 <TrueBrain> xiong: unless proven otherwise, everyone here in this chatroom is an 'it' 15:36:24 <Eddi|zuHause> xiong: 99.8% of political debates [aka wars] base on people having different opinions on what the "basic premise" is. 15:36:27 <xiong> Then it is chosen. 15:36:54 <planetmaker> xiong, no, the speaker chooses his reference frame. He only has to make sure the others know _what_ he uses 15:37:09 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: you sound like my math teacher 15:37:21 <planetmaker> but... this IS math ;-) 15:37:31 <xiong> Let's put this another way. planetmaker is going to choose a direction for north. I will abide by that, period. I will discuss this game with planetmaker. Anybody who does not agree with planetmaker's definition of north, I will simply ignore. 15:37:33 <TrueBrain> well, in fact, it was the professor of Special Relativity Thereom, but the remark holds ;) 15:37:48 <xiong> planetmaker, Which way is north? 15:37:48 <planetmaker> haha :-) 15:37:53 <planetmaker> up 15:37:55 <TrueBrain> the opisite of south! 15:37:59 <Eddi|zuHause> that way --> 15:38:05 <TrueBrain> 90 degree from west 15:38:11 <TrueBrain> well, that is not true ... there is a 3rd dimension 15:38:15 <TrueBrain> what do we call that? 15:38:20 <planetmaker> height 15:38:23 <dihedral> i call my direction north too, is my and planetmaker's north the same? 15:38:26 <xiong> Guys, I'm serious. I'm asking planetmaker; I'm not joking. 15:38:28 <TrueBrain> by all definitions? 15:38:39 <dihedral> :-P 15:38:56 <xiong> planetmaker, Do you say that north is towards top of viewport? 15:39:04 <Eddi|zuHause> how would i know what kind of directions the astrophysicists have? 15:39:42 <planetmaker> xiong, yes 15:39:53 <planetmaker> I go by the code's definition of North is up 15:40:11 <planetmaker> dihedral, north is anyway relative to the location you are at ;-) 15:40:16 <dihedral> :-D 15:40:25 <planetmaker> its definition is a local one only 15:40:32 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-219-42.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:40:33 <dihedral> i am at the top of the viewport :-D 15:40:40 <Belugas> which is what we have agreed, therefor it's the convention on which the game has been made 15:40:43 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, they have also North and South :-) 15:40:49 <Belugas> therefor... what was the questin again?? 15:40:56 <xiong> Okay. That's great. Now, I don't mean to be rude, I don't want to upset anyone, and I agree that each human being and machine in this universe has his own frame of reference. But if I see anyone lay a claim to any variant definition of north, I'm putting him on /ignore immediately. Sorry; but otherwise the noise level will swamp my tiny brain. 15:40:57 <TrueBrain> LOL @ dihedral 15:41:07 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: how do you define north if your planet doesn't have a magnetic field? 15:41:27 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: relative to the sun of course 15:41:29 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, it's defined by the prograde sense of rotation. 15:41:40 <Belugas> can a planet NOT have a magetif field? 15:41:42 <TrueBrain> counter clockwise spin up 15:41:44 <TrueBrain> whoho 15:41:48 <planetmaker> Belugas, sure 15:41:49 <Eddi|zuHause> so "right hand rule"? 15:41:50 <TrueBrain> Belugas: a planet that is not rotating :D 15:41:57 <Belugas> ho 15:41:58 <frosch123> Belugas: i guess at least 50% of talking was about the question "what is the question" 15:42:02 <Belugas> tghat's possible? 15:42:03 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, kinda 15:42:04 *** Progman_ [~progman@p57A1D421.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 15:42:10 <TrueBrain> Belugas: not really, but sure :) 15:42:20 <TrueBrain> frosch123: 90% 15:42:22 <planetmaker> Belugas, sorry, but it depends on the definition of "no magnetic field" ;-) 15:42:26 <TrueBrain> the other 10% was: is this dude for real? 15:42:27 <planetmaker> Mars has very little 15:42:41 <Belugas> rght... /me goes back to sleep... 15:42:44 <dihedral> where is north from Santa's point of view? :-P 15:42:46 <TrueBrain> enjoy Belugas 15:42:46 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-150-64.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 15:42:49 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 15:42:50 <TrueBrain> oeh, I am commanded to make the food here 15:43:01 * Belugas wants a PIZZA! 15:43:01 <dihedral> lol 15:43:10 <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: did you mean: "what noise does a tree make if nobody listens"? 15:43:13 <TrueBrain> I will have a talk about what is north in my kitchen 15:43:15 <TrueBrain> sounds interesting 15:43:20 *** Pulec|XNB [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 15:43:29 <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause, yeah :-D 15:44:49 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:44:52 <dihedral> theoretically you should be able to go far enough south, and beyond to be heading northing again - which does however (sadly) not count for openttd 15:45:06 <Xaroth> dihedral: make it work! 15:45:11 <planetmaker> play p1sim! :-P 15:45:22 <planetmaker> everything will work there 15:45:22 <dihedral> hehe 15:45:23 <dihedral> NO 15:45:24 <dihedral> :-P 15:45:38 <xiong> Okay, planetmaker, I have now just ignored 3 guys who don't seem to agree with you about north. We are going to move forward now. 15:45:57 <planetmaker> I guess you ignored the wrong people. They're all nice :-) 15:46:00 <Xaroth> xiong 15:46:00 <xiong> I see that the enum file defines track x, y, left, right, top, and bottom. 15:46:24 <dihedral> now planetmaker if you make a silly remark also, his ignore list will be quite amusing :-P 15:46:24 <Xaroth> you do realise that you just ignored at least 2 of the major developers of the game? 15:46:26 <xiong> I don't care if they are nice; I care if they accept your definition of north without discussion or quibble. 15:46:31 <dihedral> i wonder who he then wants to argue with 15:46:41 <Xaroth> I mean.. you take a random player's word for something that the developers defined 15:46:49 <xiong> Xaroth, Do you agree that north is top of viewport? 15:46:57 <Xaroth> no 15:47:01 <Xaroth> I do not 15:47:12 <planetmaker> xiong, it's irrelevant what they say on that aspect :-) 15:47:15 <dihedral> Xaroth, kronk! you are ignored :-D 15:47:24 <xiong> Okay, that's one less distraction. 15:47:26 <Xaroth> dihedral: I really don't care :P 15:47:28 <planetmaker> and it's probably quite irrelevant for any signal discussion 15:47:32 <xiong> I see that the enum file defines track x, y, left, right, top, and bottom. 15:47:43 <Xaroth> TrueBrain: @kick privs pwetty pwease? :P 15:47:48 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1A847.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:47:52 *** Progman_ is now known as Progman 15:47:54 <dihedral> lol? this is about signals? and he's making a fuss about north? 15:47:55 <xiong> These names seem to be chosen wrt the tile in which the track bit is placed. 15:48:03 <dihedral> did someone say his signal had to face north? :-P 15:48:18 <Xaroth> did someone say north actually mattered? 15:48:30 <dihedral> size matters 15:48:33 <Xaroth> always 15:49:05 <dihedral> too long a train for too short a station just aint gonna hit it, even if they face north 15:49:14 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:49:15 <Xaroth> but the man? is trying to argue on wind directions in a game that has no wind! 15:49:27 <planetmaker> Xaroth, OpenTTD has wind 15:49:39 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 15:49:46 <planetmaker> quiz question: how do you know which direction? ;-) 15:50:07 <dihedral> whatch the windsocks at an airfield :-) 15:50:10 <xiong> Now, a continuous length of track may consist entirely of only x or only y. But it cannot consist of only left or only top. Continuous sections involving top track alternate between top and bottom; continuous sections also alternate between left and right. Correct and clear so far? 15:50:24 <planetmaker> dihedral, won a cookie 15:50:35 <Xaroth> planetmaker: and while the windsocks show signs of wind, the trees and water do not 15:50:39 <dihedral> \o/# 15:50:44 <dihedral> i like the cookie 15:50:46 <Xaroth> so it's my belief that the windsocks are rigged 15:50:48 <dihedral> will you mail it to me? 15:51:04 <planetmaker> Xaroth, it needs far less wind for a find sock to show its direction than to stirr much trees. Water shows waves just fine 15:51:21 <Xaroth> those aren't waves :P 15:51:21 <xiong> planetmaker, Correct? 15:51:22 <dihedral> Sir dih dihedral, North Road, Northington N1 1N, Northpole 15:51:22 *** Pulec|XNB [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:51:29 <planetmaker> xiong, I guess, yes 15:51:47 <Xaroth> planetmaker: just say 'north is on the bottom of the viewport' 15:51:52 <Xaroth> see how he discusses that issue. 15:52:03 <planetmaker> lol :-) 15:52:09 <Xaroth> seriously :/ 15:52:30 <xiong> Great. So, again, I'm going to ask you for terms. I have a section of track; it is all x track. I have a section of track; it is top-and-bottom track. These are fundamentally different. 15:52:52 <dihedral> Xaroth, how about planetmaker saying: I do not believe North is where planetmaker says north is 15:53:01 <planetmaker> ^ I like that 15:53:02 <Xaroth> hah 15:53:25 <xiong> The all-x and all-y track is similar in some way. The top-and-botttom and the left-and-right track is similar, also, in the same way, but different from the x and the y track. What terms would you like to use to distinguish these two sets? 15:53:28 <planetmaker> but North surely is where andythenorth is 15:53:39 <dihedral> or where he comes from 15:53:51 <frosch123> xiong: x and y are straight tracks, there is even a function named for that 15:53:53 <planetmaker> the nick says that he is North 15:54:06 <frosch123> the other tracks are diagonal tracks, which means they are diagonal wrt. the tile, not wrt. the viewport 15:54:37 <frosch123> so, was this whole discussion about diagonal wrt. tile is not same as diagonal wrt. viewport? :o 15:54:38 <xiong> planetmaker, Do you agree that 'straight' and 'diagonal' cover this distinction? 15:55:00 <dihedral> say no say no 15:55:01 <dihedral> :-D 15:55:08 <Xaroth> diagonal is no direction 15:55:15 <dihedral> north, and north west :-D 15:55:22 <planetmaker> diagonal is no direction indeed 15:55:31 <Xaroth> \o/ 15:55:46 <glx> I never remember which of SW-NE and SE-NW is x 15:55:50 <dihedral> passes half his cookie to Xaroth 15:55:57 <Xaroth> :) 15:55:58 <dihedral> :-D 15:56:01 <xiong> No. I speak of two classes of track. The first class includes track x and track y. The second class includes top, left, bottom, right. 15:56:05 <planetmaker> when we defined North, we can easily talk of E-W tracks and N-S tracks etc pp 15:56:17 *** perk11 [~perk11@81.17.157.195] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 15:56:27 <frosch123> glx: neither, x is from something north to something south :p 15:56:30 <michi_cc> X is SW-NE if I'm not totally off :) 15:56:32 <planetmaker> xiong, I see no point to distinguish those tracks 15:56:38 <dihedral> #define SOUTH NORTH :-P 15:56:45 <Xaroth> #define NORTH SOUTH 15:56:46 <planetmaker> #define TRUE FALSE 15:57:04 <michi_cc> Or at least TRACK_X to be exact :) 15:57:15 <xiong> Well, I do; and I hope you'll extend me the courtesy. I promise to make it clear. 15:57:17 <frosch123> anyway, there is picture at the top of viewport.cpp, which is all i need to remember abou tit :p 15:57:22 <michi_cc> Who knows what other X there is. 15:57:33 <Xaroth> it's common belief that the top-right corner of the map is considered north 15:57:47 <Xaroth> er 15:57:48 <dihedral> whoever believes there is no reason to distinguish those tracks will go on my ignore list :-P 15:57:50 <Xaroth> top right edge, even 15:57:51 * dihedral chuckles 15:58:00 <frosch123> Xaroth: maybe that originates from the heightmap players, who turn their screen? 15:58:09 <Xaroth> frosch123: probably 15:58:16 <glx> top is the north corner of a tile, bottom is the south corner, that's all 15:58:34 <dihedral> so north is a corner 15:58:40 <planetmaker> xiong, I propose you first try to state the problem you want to solve. And not each step 15:58:44 <planetmaker> because there might be a much faster way there... 15:58:47 <xiong> Look, life is short. We've already spent half an hour on this topic, which is extremely boring. Without this tool, discussion cannot move into interesting territory. Can we please pick terms? 15:58:55 <frosch123> dihedral: CORNER_N is part of the Corner enum 15:58:55 <dihedral> lol 15:58:58 <frosch123> did you mean that? 15:59:06 <glx> dihedral: of course it's a corner :) 15:59:07 <dihedral> no actually not 15:59:12 <planetmaker> xiong, that's what I initially said: pick your terms and fine 15:59:18 <Xaroth> glx: it doesn't have to be :) 15:59:38 *** X-2 [~X-2@a83-163-133-37.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:59:44 <glx> that's how it's defined in comments 15:59:52 <xiong> planetmaker, Do you understand why it is so important for you to pick terms here? I will go along with your choices. I will /ignore anyone who does not. That's it. 16:00:12 *** mode/#openttd [+o glx] by DorpsGek 16:00:12 * xiong for coffee 16:00:14 <dihedral> if the north is in the top i prefer it being a corner, if the north is in the (quote)'diagonal' i prefer it being an edge :-P 16:00:31 * frosch123 awaits topic change 16:00:38 <glx> diagonal are placed in corners 16:00:40 <planetmaker> I'm afraid I actually don't understand the importance... 16:00:54 <dihedral> ^^ 16:01:04 <glx> and they don't cross 16:01:05 <dihedral> i do not get why he's so irate about it 16:01:14 <dihedral> he's only adding burnable material to the flames 16:01:42 <dihedral> so, planetmaker is the new project leader 16:01:58 <Xaroth> I wonder if TrueBrain already died laughing 16:02:06 <dihedral> anybody who does not bide by his terms is ignored by all important users in this channel 16:02:13 <planetmaker> whoot, dihedral ? 16:02:26 <dihedral> just going over the top a little :-P 16:02:28 <planetmaker> please no. I'll be the imperator of doom 16:02:36 <dihedral> lol 16:03:06 <xiong> Then I will beg your indulgence on that meta-issue. I have got 1 hour this morning to play trains and I'm spending all of it trying to nail down a pair of terms. One term identifies the class of track {x, y}; the opposite, exclusive term identifies the class of track {top, left, bottom, right}. I have heard 'straight' and 'diagonal', respectively. Do you want to use those terms?} 16:03:22 <dihedral> LOL 16:03:54 <Xaroth> eh? 16:03:59 <dihedral> xoing, you'd be better off writing some post on the forums 16:04:06 <Xaroth> he won't read you, dihedral :P 16:04:14 <dihedral> or, if you want less responses, take bugs.openttd.org 16:04:23 <dihedral> Xaroth, he probably will 16:04:36 <Xaroth> no way he can mentally ignore all of us without slipping :P 16:04:40 <dihedral> curiosity of your highlight will drive him to the logs 16:04:46 <dihedral> @logs 16:04:48 <Belugas> xiong: do you refer to directions from a user point of view or as a programmer point of view? 16:04:50 <dihedral> shame 16:05:09 <Xaroth> Belugas: tell him north is not where he thinks he is 16:05:10 * dihedral applauds Belugas 16:05:20 <planetmaker> xiong, I don't like straight and diagonal - they're very easily mis-understood. 16:05:26 <xiong> Belugas, Please let planetmaker speak on this. Then, you can agree or disagree. 16:05:26 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-78-102-180-216.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:05:28 <frosch123> xiong: go for "normal" and "weird" 16:05:33 <dihedral> planetmaker, aparently NORTH is too 16:05:45 <planetmaker> dihedral, but less so 16:05:58 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-78-102-180-216.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 16:06:00 <xiong> Okay, then, planetmaker, please choose. I strongly prefer short words if I think I might type them often and this is one of those times. 16:06:00 <dihedral> <xiong> Belugas, Please let planetmaker speak on this. Then, you can agree or disagree. <- if you disagree he will ignore you :-D 16:06:17 <dihedral> how old is this kid? 16:06:27 <xiong> frosch123, I consider planetmaker the absolute authority on this topic. 16:06:46 <glx> he's not 16:06:48 <planetmaker> xiong, better consider frosch123 the authority. He knows the code WAAAY better than me 16:06:49 <frosch123> poor guy 16:06:52 * dihedral chuckles even more 16:07:03 * Xaroth sniggers 16:07:18 <dihedral> planetmaker, would you please agree that this is kind of amusing? 16:07:21 <Xaroth> I too, am starting to question his age 16:07:35 <Xaroth> dihedral: amusing, yes, pathetic, even more so. 16:07:39 <frosch123> anyway, IsDiagonalTrackdir indeed considers x and y as diagonal, so wrt. viewport, not wrt. tile 16:07:47 <planetmaker> xiong, use the directions NW-SE. or use \ and / and | and - 16:07:59 <dihedral> perfect 16:08:20 <glx> frosch123: we like to be inconsistent ;) 16:08:36 <planetmaker> hehe :-) 16:08:39 <xiong> planetmaker, Have I been confusing? track x is not track y but they both belong to a single class. 16:08:53 <frosch123> yup, make's you think more about your code, so the result is better :p 16:08:53 <glx> they are tracks 16:08:58 <xiong> I do not wish to speak of track x with one of these terms-to-be-chosen. 16:09:32 <planetmaker> then use upper - and lower - and left | and right | track 16:09:35 <xiong> I want to speak of a certain class that includes both x and y. I want to speak of another certain class that includes top, left, bottom, right. 16:09:37 <planetmaker> whatever 16:10:08 <xiong> Damn. You're correct: upper, lower, left, right. That is the second class. Please name these two classes. 16:10:18 * planetmaker lost now every sense of direction. Me digs a huge hole 16:10:38 <dihedral> where will the whole go to? 16:10:50 <frosch123> planetmaker: you are the authority, just tell him "class 1" and "class 2" 16:10:53 <dihedral> and what would 'down' mean if you lost every sense of direction 16:10:54 <planetmaker> the the antipodes. That way I can jojo in 90 minutes through Earth 16:11:07 <dihedral> lol 16:11:11 <dihedral> frosch123, nice one 16:11:39 <dihedral> as there is kick - i am disappointed there is not opposite, of looking someone inside a channel - as a maskot type of thing 16:11:41 <planetmaker> hm... as my authority is frosch123 I'll go by class1 and class2. Sorry 16:11:51 <dihedral> ^^ 16:11:52 <xiong> planetmaker, Do I have to beg and crawl? I told you -- and I'm serious -- I have 1 hour this morning to play trains. I'm spending it all on these two terms. I need these. 16:12:04 <dihedral> my word 16:12:06 <frosch123> specifically "enum { CLASS1 = 0, CLASS2 = 1};" 16:12:10 <xiong> Please don't make a joke of it. I'm deadly serious. 16:12:10 <frosch123> else it is no fun 16:12:16 <frosch123> if 1 is definite 16:12:41 <planetmaker> xiong, I tried to talk to you in private. I can't, you refuse. I don't understand what you're heading at. And I don't understand what you want to put name tags onto. I really don't. 16:12:41 <dihedral> we need to have a warning on the OpenTTD website: this software can be addicting and may turn you into a complete and utter loony 16:12:50 <xiong> We're going to be using these terms hundreds of times over the life of the project. 16:13:05 <dihedral> project?? 16:13:11 <xiong> I have an automatic query blocker, planetmaker. I'll whitelist you. 16:13:20 <dihedral> LOL 16:13:30 <xiong> ... if I can remember how that works. 16:13:31 <dihedral> please don't move the chat away from here 16:13:51 <dihedral> else i made the popcorn for no reason 16:14:01 <planetmaker> :-D 16:14:08 <xiong> I will have to go look that up. 16:14:34 <dihedral> popcorn? its sweetcorn just popped! 16:14:36 <planetmaker> well, no worries. I don't at all understand the significance 16:14:49 <Belugas> xiong: code wise, I can show you all the names we are using to define directions 16:14:52 <planetmaker> You want to draw signals IIRC 16:14:54 <Belugas> looks like thes 16:14:55 <Belugas> DIR_N = 0, ///< North 16:14:55 <Belugas> DIR_NE = 1, ///< Northeast 16:14:55 <Belugas> DIR_E = 2, ///< East 16:14:55 <Belugas> DIR_SE = 3, ///< Southeast 16:14:55 <Belugas> DIR_S = 4, ///< South 16:14:55 <Belugas> DIR_SW = 5, ///< Southwest 16:14:56 <dihedral> and you have come to that point in your authority as planetmaker 16:14:57 <Belugas> DIR_W = 6, ///< West 16:14:57 <Belugas> DIR_NW = 7, ///< Northwest 16:14:59 <planetmaker> We can have 8 per type 16:15:20 <frosch123> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=50375 <- on topic :p 16:15:22 <planetmaker> one per direction N, NW W SW S SE E NE 16:15:38 <planetmaker> Not more not less. No matter what the tile and its orientation 16:15:40 <xiong> Belugas, I'm starting to get frustrated. Please, you are just distracting from my single, tiny point. 16:16:19 <dihedral> Belugas, you naughty naughty dev 16:16:23 <dihedral> you have no authority 16:16:27 <dihedral> planetmaker mas that 16:16:30 * planetmaker hugs the big white whale :-) 16:16:33 <dihedral> *has 16:16:35 <dihedral> :-D 16:16:38 <xiong> planetmaker, I cannot find quickly any docs on the query blocker; I'm sorry. I installed it to combat query flooding on another server. 16:16:55 <planetmaker> well, don't worry about it 16:17:00 <Belugas> xiong, i'm sorry but i am trying to give you the answer you are seeking. These are all the names we are using for directions. therefor, if you like them, it's the best way to actually define your problem. 16:17:05 <xiong> I have the enum files open in several tabs. 16:17:15 <planetmaker> I don't mind, but I don't understand what you're heading at or what point you try to make 16:17:37 <dihedral> he's not made a point so far, has he? 16:17:52 <glx> we still don't know why 16:18:02 <dihedral> i mean, he's only been ignoring people, pointing in random directions and non-directions, and declaring authority 16:18:28 <xiong> Sorry, phone. 16:18:34 <dihedral> i declare authority to alain2007 16:18:42 *** mode/#openttd [+m] by DorpsGek 16:18:48 *** mode/#openttd [-m] by DorpsGek 16:18:51 <dihedral> :-( 16:19:05 <dihedral> there is no use of that when he's not here to chat 16:19:22 <glx> we have not enough voiced anyway 16:19:28 *** mode/#openttd [-o glx] by DorpsGek 16:19:30 <dihedral> you can change that :-P 16:19:36 <dihedral> voice all appart from :-D 16:19:57 <frosch123> hmm, noone put "north is north" in the topic yet :o 16:19:59 <dihedral> glx, there is +q though which does stand for 'quiet' 16:20:11 <xiong> Okay, that just changed everything. I had a meeting for 11 am which has just been rescheduled to tomorrow. 16:20:15 <frosch123> i really expected that, when glx op'd 16:20:29 <dihedral> you can do it frosch123 16:20:34 <xiong> planetmaker, I cannot easily explain why I need the terms, without having the terms. 16:20:40 <glx> I don't need to be op for that :) 16:20:55 <xiong> Do you understand clearly which classes I point to? 16:20:59 <dihedral> i cannot say what a it is if you do not tell me what it is 16:21:07 <frosch123> dihedral: i only have mental authority :p 16:21:21 <dihedral> frosch123, there is a bot named DorpsGek 16:21:25 <dihedral> even i could change the copit 16:21:27 <dihedral> topic 16:21:29 <planetmaker> xiong, not really. I know there are - | / and \ track pieces 16:21:34 <xiong> The terms previously advanced were 'straight' and 'diagonal'. I understand you don't like these. That's fine; please choose others. 16:21:43 <planetmaker> - and | can be on a tile in two positions. That's it for me 16:22:03 <dihedral> in your authority as man :-D 16:22:14 <dihedral> as a cookie giving human being 16:22:27 <xiong> planetmaker, Are you okay with the enum definitions track_x, y, upper, lower, left, right? 16:22:37 <dihedral> my word 16:22:44 <planetmaker> if it helps 16:22:47 <dihedral> planetmaker, please say yes, please please please 16:22:48 <dihedral> YAY 16:23:04 <dihedral> at least we can now find out what he's on about :-D 16:23:08 <dihedral> the story may continue 16:23:38 <xiong> I'm looking at this: (http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/browser/trunk/src/track_type.h) 16:23:51 <dihedral> ... 16:24:15 <glx> the comments are clear 16:24:41 <frosch123> even more with track_func.h 16:24:50 *** andythenorth_ [~andy@78.150.147.201] has joined #openttd 16:25:42 <frosch123> [18:24] <dihedral> at least we can now find out what he's on about :-D <- i think it is about "derivative work". every game using those definitions of directions is obviously a derivative of openttd, and thus gpl licensed 16:25:46 <planetmaker> let's use that then xiong. It defines both, the N, E, ... and the x,y,etc 16:25:55 <andythenorth_> evening 16:26:12 <xiong> Yes, the file is very clear. So, I see 6 types of track, exclusive of intersections and special cases. I wish to classify these into 2 classes: one class includes 2 types, x and y; the other class includes 4 types, upper, lower, left, right. 16:26:29 <Hirundo> xiong: code-wise, diagonal means aligned to the grid, the other directions do not have any special name 16:26:48 <planetmaker> xiong, then it's the + and the x class 16:26:54 <frosch123> yup, diagonal and non-diagnonal 16:27:13 <Hirundo> it's your privilege to define your own names for whatever you need them 16:27:22 <xiong> Ahhhhh! 16:27:26 <planetmaker> + = | and - directions (4) and x = x and y directions 16:27:35 <xiong> Do I have to explain the entire classical frame of reference?? 16:27:41 <dihedral> i am loving this 16:27:56 <dihedral> NO 16:28:01 <xiong> planetmaker, x is already in use. 16:28:18 <planetmaker> overloaded notation :-P 16:28:32 <dihedral> i pitty the fool 16:28:34 <frosch123> then use X instead 16:28:38 <xiong> Let's not rely on case sensitivity or other fragile methods of disambiguation. 16:28:51 <dihedral> ... 16:28:53 <xiong> This is NOT FUNNY to me. 16:28:58 <planetmaker> one is a class, one is a type, but well. 16:28:58 <dihedral> planetmaker, how are you holding up there? 16:29:09 <planetmaker> by means of strong and much tea 16:29:10 <dihedral> hihi 16:29:15 *** avdg [~avdg@94-227-100-192.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:29:48 <Belugas> what about TRACK_CROSSED_DIAG, TRACK_CROSSED_STRAIGHT? 16:30:34 <xiong> planetmaker, If we're going to work together, we have to respect one another. I'm asking you to respect my desire to use terms to distinguish these classes. I'm afraid you think this is silly, therefore you are not willing to throw down a shoe, so we can move on. 16:30:37 *** avdg [~avdg@94-227-100-192.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 16:31:10 <planetmaker> xiong, I've no clue how to name these classes... so you pick the words 16:31:11 *** avdg [~avdg@94-227-100-192.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:31:15 <xiong> Belugas, I'm not speaking only of crossed track. Indeed, I'm not speaking of crossed track at all, since signals cannot be placed on crossed track. 16:31:34 <xiong> planetmaker, Okay, then, the terms 'straight' and 'diagonal' were advanced. 16:31:48 <dihedral> planetmaker, which project are you two working on :-P 16:31:52 <dihedral> is he your boss? 16:32:02 <planetmaker> what is diagonal then, xiong ? 16:32:06 <dihedral> at least it looks like like you want to "work together" :-D 16:32:09 <planetmaker> -| or /\ 16:32:11 <xiong> This would imply that 'straight' track is orthogonal to the game grid; 'diagonal' diagonal to the game grid. 16:32:13 *** avdg [~avdg@94-227-100-192.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 16:32:24 <planetmaker> xiong, you use orthogonal wrongly 16:32:37 <planetmaker> the grid is orthogonal. Only the z-height can be orthogonal to it 16:33:49 <xiong> planetmaker, We are defining terms. There isn't much use in picking on my choices of words, is there? 16:34:11 <planetmaker> orthorgonal means 90° angle (in normal cartesian coordinates) 16:34:13 <xiong> The purpose of defined terms is to settle issues like these. 16:34:38 <xiong> I'm not just talking for the sake of talk. 16:34:45 <planetmaker> let's call them for illustrative purposes -| class and \/ or /\ class 16:34:56 <xiong> planetmaker, I cannot do that. 16:34:56 <planetmaker> then it will remain clear and not overload traditional math terms 16:35:02 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e0b8955.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 16:35:33 <xiong> I will screw it up. I will confuse \/ with V. I will break my fingers trying to type these. 16:35:38 <dihedral> use STRAIGHT and CROOKED 16:35:53 <dihedral> lol 16:36:00 <frosch123> STRAIGHT and ALTER are also nice, as "ALTER" may refer to both alternative direction an dalternating track :p 16:36:07 <dihedral> at least if he breaks his fingers he cannot discuss with the channels authority 16:36:30 <xiong> planetmaker, Is there some reason why 'straight' and 'diagonal' simply cannot be used here? 16:36:32 <planetmaker> xiong, ok, we've spent now like an eternity on trying to define *something* 16:36:44 <xiong> Yes, it's intensely frustrating. 16:36:51 <dihedral> it's amusing 16:36:59 <planetmaker> xiong, I'll always ask myself straight and diagonal... wrt what? 16:37:04 <frosch123> maybe you should go back to the question whether the definition is needed? 16:37:07 <xiong> Would you please pick two sensible terms and let us move on? 16:37:16 <planetmaker> -| and V 16:37:37 <dihedral> GRID and NONGRID 16:37:42 <xiong> No, frosch123. Because the terms are needed in order to explain why they are needed. Nobody should be forced to justify the need for terms. 16:38:15 <xiong> Words, please, planetmaker. Bear in mind that you and I will be typing these. 16:38:17 <dihedral> if the terms are needed to define why the terms are needed and what they are, would x and y not suffice 16:38:27 <Belugas> mmh... and why not using a represetation based on keyboard? 16:38:27 <dihedral> and if x and y are not ok use z and a or a and b 16:38:31 <xiong> I don't know why you want to mess around with this. 16:38:36 <planetmaker> if you don't like -| and V, then choose a modified proposal from dih: GRID-ALIGNED and non-grid-aligned 16:38:44 <Belugas> like H can be used for all straight tracks 16:38:56 <Belugas> and V for all diagonals 16:39:14 <dihedral> now Belugas that is not helping, you are not agreeing to the authority in this channel :-P 16:39:55 <xiong> Okay, planetmaker, will you buy into Belugas's proposal, which I'll restate as: H refers to track x, y; V refers to track upper,lower, left, right --? 16:40:09 <planetmaker> aaaaaah. Vice versa 16:40:33 <Belugas> dihedral, seems liek nobody agrees on anything :) it just makes it a strange conversation :) 16:40:47 <planetmaker> grid-aligned and not-grid-aligned 16:40:48 <Belugas> i agree with planetmaker 16:40:49 <planetmaker> that's it 16:40:53 <xiong> Okay, I've hit my frustration limit. I'd like to work on these graphics but I cannot spend two hours every time I need to pick a pair of words. 16:41:10 <planetmaker> same here 16:41:14 <xiong> I cannot type three words to express one concept. 16:41:27 <xiong> I will say ga and nga. 16:41:37 <dihedral> does he have a job? 16:41:40 <xiong> If that's okay, then we'll do that. 16:41:46 <planetmaker> go for it 16:41:52 <Belugas> :) 16:41:55 <dihedral> i cannot imagine him ever staing in one company for longer than one hour 16:42:14 <Belugas> dihedral, maybe as an accountant? 16:42:21 <dihedral> lol 16:42:31 <dihedral> would he get much done though? 16:42:31 <frosch123> what the discussion stopped? 16:42:33 <xiong> Fine. Then, as with the definition of north, I will abide by this convention exclusively. So that there is no question about what's been decided, I'm going to post to the forum thread. See you in a few. 16:42:42 <dihedral> i mean, "boss what shall i call these 2 draws under my desk?" 16:42:43 <frosch123> but didn't you consider that H and V mean horizontal and vertical? 16:43:04 <planetmaker> frosch123, I don't like horizontal and vertical :-) 16:43:49 <dihedral> all of this was merely for a forum post? 16:43:49 <planetmaker> omg 16:44:23 <dihedral> what? where? 16:44:24 *** Mortomes [~mortomes@e58064.upc-e.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 16:44:36 <frosch123> i hope it is not about "sqrt(2) in ottd" again... 16:44:43 <dihedral> planetmaker, link? 16:45:25 <planetmaker> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=50450 16:47:18 <dihedral> you're kidding right? 16:48:05 *** Chruker [~no@port113.ds1-vj.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #openttd 16:48:14 <dihedral> i hope the post does not take much longer - i need to head out :-P 16:49:45 <dihedral> i love the file comment on his second post "Demo; do not use." 16:49:50 <dihedral> it's an image... hello? 16:50:23 * Belugas wonders what would be the next part after drawing the signals. And if the demo is a real one or a fake 16:52:08 <planetmaker> fake 16:52:17 <planetmaker> as in drawn on a screenshot 16:52:17 *** TomyLobo [~foo@port-212-202-171-176.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 16:52:32 *** TomyLobo [~foo@port-212-202-171-176.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [] 16:53:21 <dihedral> lookes kinda photoshoped :-D 16:54:36 <Belugas> though so 16:55:14 <Belugas> since the replacement of actual signal with these is not going to be easy, i believe 16:56:27 *** V453000 [93e60efb@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 16:57:30 <V453000> hello, is PBS expected to react to a 1way block signal? when I have a PBS station entry and there are oneway block signals facing the opposite direction, the PBS entry refuses to allow them in 16:57:51 <planetmaker> I don't think it'd be a huge problem. IF there are sprites unique for each of the 8 directions 16:58:00 *** fanioz [~fanioz@180.214.232.11] has joined #openttd 16:58:07 <dihedral> V453000, that depends on where NORTH is 16:58:13 <planetmaker> :-D 16:58:15 <V453000> north? 16:58:17 <V453000> wtf 16:58:25 <V453000> :) 16:58:28 <dihedral> :-D 16:58:29 <planetmaker> V453000, you need to read back the last one? two hours 16:58:44 <Belugas> well... since the signal is ON the track and not BESIDES it, there might be some ... diificulties 16:58:48 <V453000> sorry, dont have backlog 16:58:52 <andythenorth_> dihedral: I'm here 16:58:58 <dihedral> LOL 16:59:26 <dihedral> http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd. 16:59:29 <dihedral> ops 16:59:43 <dihedral> andythenorth_, i was not refering to you, sorry :-D 16:59:54 <V453000> hmm :) 17:00:29 <dihedral> i want to read that post of xiong 17:00:34 <dihedral> it's not there :-S 17:02:11 <Belugas> yet 17:02:37 <V453000> btw is there any way how to make removing of signs in game logged? 17:02:59 <planetmaker> V453000, don't we log that? 17:03:08 <dihedral> "subscript topic" - i'll get a notification on my phone once he replies :-D 17:03:24 <V453000> pm: I tried to find that in the .stable gamelog and it wasnt there ... dont know abou PS 17:06:51 <planetmaker> we don't log stable 17:07:03 *** X-2 [~X-2@5ED67292.cm-7-7b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 17:12:19 <TrueBrain> Xaroth: he did give me a good laugh yes :D 17:12:28 <TrueBrain> it seems we all hav eto comply with his vision, which amuses me a lot :D 17:13:27 <TrueBrain> I always forget how many people come in this channel who amuse me :D 17:13:30 <TrueBrain> I should be here more often :D 17:18:25 *** elmz_ [~elmz@184.213-167-126.customer.lyse.net] has joined #openttd 17:20:19 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has quit [Quit: .] 17:23:48 *** V453000 [93e60efb@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 17:25:17 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has joined #openttd 17:26:18 *** elmz [~elmz@184.213-167-126.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:31:03 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 17:31:12 <xiong> Okay, planetmaker; (http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=50450&p=908024#p908024). Please be kind enough to post your agreement to the thread -- or, if you disagree, let's settle it now. 17:31:13 *** TheMask96 [martijn@lust.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:31:30 <peter1138> Did I miss some drama? 17:32:07 <xiong> No, no drama, unless you consider the definition of 'north' dramatic. 17:32:36 *** Belugas [~belugas@216.191.111.238] has quit [Quit: On snow, everyone can follow your traces] 17:33:05 *** zachanima [~zach@2506ds3-od.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:33:15 <TrueBrain> peter1138: what should be a normal question was one of the funnest conversations I read in ages 17:33:22 <planetmaker> ok, you made a nice summary picture of the length "how do we call which direction" discussion. I concur to the definitions shown there 17:33:41 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: since when did you became so politic correct? 17:34:02 <planetmaker> hm, am I? 17:34:08 <TrueBrain> Yeah! You are no fun :( 17:34:25 <planetmaker> :`-( 17:34:44 <TrueBrain> I love you nevertheless 17:34:44 *** Belugas [~belugas@216.191.111.238] has joined #openttd 17:34:47 *** mode/#openttd [+o Belugas] by ChanServ 17:35:14 <planetmaker> and I love you, too ;-) 17:35:28 <planetmaker> where's my dagger? ;-) 17:35:37 <davis> hehe 17:35:38 * planetmaker hides 17:36:05 <TrueBrain> hide behind the north, I suggest 17:36:12 <TrueBrain> for sure we won't be able to find it back 17:36:16 <planetmaker> nope. North is too common right now 17:36:25 <planetmaker> I hide in the far South. But pssst! 17:37:07 <TrueBrain> after all, I talked about it with friends over here, and we really don't understand why this game never settled on what is north 17:37:08 <TrueBrain> insanity ... 17:37:25 *** andythenorth_ [~andy@78.150.147.201] has quit [Quit: andythenorth_] 17:37:33 <TrueBrain> owh, now I am just mocking people 17:37:45 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: that is an interesting statement ... how far you have to go south to end up north? 17:37:45 <planetmaker> North is where... andy is. Look at the nick^ 17:37:48 *** TheMask96 [martijn@pride.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 17:38:03 <planetmaker> hehe :-) 17:38:14 <TrueBrain> but he left :( 17:38:23 <planetmaker> magnetic monopoles! 17:38:45 <TrueBrain> ghehe: are you dipolar? :D 17:39:12 <TrueBrain> back to more serious talk: how are you doing planetmaker? :) 17:39:28 <planetmaker> I hope I have more than two poles. At least quadrupolar ;-) 17:39:43 <planetmaker> I'm procrastinating too much, but fine :-) 17:39:51 <xiong> planetmaker, Please post to thread. Thank you. 17:40:05 <planetmaker> xiong, why? 17:40:43 <planetmaker> There's no question asked, no problem to be solved I can help with 17:40:52 <Rubidium> yay... 26.1 kB/s @ 140km/h 17:40:55 <TrueBrain> and how is OpenTTD doing? Any kewl new features? :) 17:41:03 <planetmaker> lots :-) 17:41:04 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: stop using train wlans 17:41:25 <Rubidium> but... then I can't procrastinate as much in the train 17:41:31 <planetmaker> hm... cool feature: newgrf versions ;-) 17:41:39 <TrueBrain> wasn't one enough? 17:41:47 <planetmaker> oh no. Lots :-) 17:41:55 <TrueBrain> what is "newgrf versions"? 17:42:03 <planetmaker> action14 defining a version 17:42:14 <planetmaker> so the newest can be picked and exclusively shown available 17:42:19 <TrueBrain> oeh, which brings me to the next quesiton: is ttdpatch dead yet? 17:42:21 <planetmaker> unless you know the proper setting in the cfg 17:42:28 <TrueBrain> oeh, that is nice :) 17:42:29 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: no way! 17:42:32 <planetmaker> for certain definitions of dead ;-) 17:42:34 <Belugas> [13:39] <planetmaker> North is where... andy is. Look at the nick^ <-- nick... not dick... blaaaa CCOOOFFEEEEE 17:42:45 <TrueBrain> Belugas: I thought you were passed that age 17:42:48 <planetmaker> :-O Belugas you narty little boy! 17:43:00 <Belugas> gaga goo goo! 17:43:13 <xiong> planetmaker, I would like your public endorsement. This is the way that we will discuss these things from now on, yes? You're free to change your mind now; later, not so much. 17:43:14 <planetmaker> go home! Fast. Bring flowers. And whatever it takes ;-) 17:43:19 <Rubidium> there was a TTDP commit this quarter 17:43:21 <Belugas> i read dick... i told myself not good... 17:43:28 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: LOL! YOU ARE SO SCREWED! 17:43:33 <TrueBrain> you have a countdown on your thoughts :D 17:44:10 <TrueBrain> I am so going to sue you if your change your mind late ron :D 17:44:11 <planetmaker> xiong, I tell you here and now "fine". What else? Why...? 17:44:16 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r20920 /trunk/src/lang/ (indonesian.txt unfinished/basque.txt unfinished/thai.txt): 17:44:16 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:44:16 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: basque - 110 changes by bellota 17:44:16 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: indonesian - 5 changes by prof 17:44:16 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: thai - 17 changes by kenny 17:45:15 <xiong> planetmaker, You suggested the thread. Is this now wrong? 17:45:31 <xiong> Do you want me to open a wiki for this? I'm happy to do so. 17:45:31 <planetmaker> it's a good summary graphic and might be even used in some documentation similarly. 17:45:43 <TrueBrain> LIES! It misses roads! 17:45:46 <planetmaker> I proposed you start a thread to post your signal graphics 17:46:08 <planetmaker> and not a thread on... directions, Nothings and whatever 17:46:48 <planetmaker> s/Nothings/Northings/ (to get cartography terms right) ;-) 17:46:50 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: but that is the only new amasing feature? Newgrf something? You can't do better? :D 17:46:52 <planetmaker> viva Freud 17:47:04 <xiong> If you're willing to participate, I'm willing to do this work. But in order to draw, I must know what I'm drawing; to know, I must ask questions; to ask, I must be able to use terms we all agree upon -- 'all' in this case being you and I and perhaps anyone else who is also interested. 17:47:40 <xiong> If you're not willing to commit to those terms, then there's something wrong with them, which needs to be fixed before moving on. 17:47:49 <planetmaker> omg. xiong Now, the 3rd time at least: each signal has _eight__ bloody directions it can face, North, NorthEast and so on 17:48:01 <planetmaker> Each needs ONE sprite 17:48:03 <planetmaker> That's it 17:48:20 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: well, there is http://wiki.luukland.net/index.php/Guidelines :) 17:48:22 <glx> no complicated definitions needed 17:48:23 <planetmaker> Nothing else to worry. Nothing else needs agreeing upon. That's all that there is to signal newgrf replacements 17:48:37 <xiong> Yes; and that's a completely different issue. I understand that this is very complicated. I also know that I can't move on without a complete understanding. 17:48:58 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: lol @ 'Pro' in that sentence :D 17:49:02 <xiong> I have questions to ask that I cannot ask without words to ask them in. 17:49:29 <xiong> I don't understand why this is an issue. Words may not be free but they are cheap. 17:49:31 <planetmaker> well. Then ask your questions. Don't ask to ask, just ask 17:49:42 * planetmaker points at topic 17:50:02 <glx> but don't forget signals can be placed on both sides (depending on game options) 17:50:06 *** lobstar [~michielbi@86.89.201.189] has joined #openttd 17:50:09 <xiong> Do you agree to the terms I show in that figure? If so, please post to thread. If not, please say here and I will fix it. 17:50:24 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: I think you have to write it on black and white before he understands 17:50:26 <TrueBrain> wait ... 17:50:34 <TrueBrain> which colour does he has his IRC client in? 17:50:53 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, you're in a nice gay-ish pink here ;-) 17:51:04 <planetmaker> telekom colour so to say 17:51:11 <TrueBrain> see, there things go wrong 17:51:16 <planetmaker> :-D 17:51:23 *** perk11 [~perk11@81.17.157.195] has joined #openttd 17:51:27 <frosch123> pm and tb have the same colour for me 17:51:31 <TrueBrain> anything new in the 1.1 pipeline? 17:51:41 <frosch123> TrueBrain: load a game 17:51:58 <TrueBrain> frosch123: that worked in 0.3 already 17:52:04 <Eddi|zuHause> what? loading a game was not possible before 1.1? 17:52:27 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, NewObjects, NewNewGRFGUI, play a game with FIRS and ECS and actually understand what goes where... 17:52:35 <frosch123> well, it is the only not-newgrf thing i can come up with 17:52:40 <planetmaker> oh: muchz more water on maps :-) 17:52:45 <frosch123> i won'T mention newgrf stuff towards tb :p 17:52:56 <planetmaker> :-P 17:52:58 <TrueBrain> frosch123: tnx :D 17:53:01 <TrueBrain> at least you know me 17:53:01 <frosch123> TrueBrain: actually you do not have to load game, just to pretend to 17:53:11 <planetmaker> indeed ^ 17:53:21 <planetmaker> I grew to used to that already :-) 17:53:22 <TrueBrain> well, I was wondering if there was anything exciting in the development pipeline :) 17:53:38 <frosch123> bug fixes? 17:53:48 <TrueBrain> exciting 17:53:53 <TrueBrain> bug fixes only give a 1.0.5 17:53:55 <TrueBrain> not a 1.1 :p 17:54:02 *** lobster [~michielbi@86.89.201.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:54:03 <Rubidium> yeah, WT3.1. That's really exciting 17:54:05 <frosch123> there are a lot of due-to-1.1 bugs 17:54:14 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: well, that in fact is a bit why I am asking about development :D 17:54:33 <frosch123> oh you mean: i ottd dies you do not need to work on it? :p 17:54:45 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I hope OpenTTD never dies 17:54:50 <TrueBrain> you have some weird ideas 17:54:54 <Rubidium> but tortoisesvn was interested in it, right? 17:54:55 <planetmaker> xiong, I won't post a pointless 'yes, those are directions' posting. I tell you here and now, that I can live with those definitions, if you need them 17:55:13 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: more projects are 17:55:21 <TrueBrain> how is the newgrf translation bla going? 17:55:29 <planetmaker> waiting for you ;-) 17:55:33 <xiong> There's a point. I'm sorry if I can't explain it in convincing terms. If you agree, why not say so? 17:55:37 <TrueBrain> I find that hard to believe 17:55:55 <planetmaker> xiong, pretty pointless? 17:55:58 <glx> we still wait for website translations ;) 17:56:01 <xiong> This is not going to be much of a partnership if I must beg you for every concession. 17:56:12 <TrueBrain> glx: figure out how to represent them first 17:56:23 <TrueBrain> glx: I got really sick of the: flags, no not flag, names! No not names, FLAGS! 17:56:27 <frosch123> TrueBrain: we have translatable newgrf names, and descriptions and a translatable newgrf conifiguration window similiar to the ai one 17:56:30 <TrueBrain> really .. ffs .. find a method :) 17:56:31 <Rubidium> hmm... receiving an email titled "onderzoeks vraag". Come on... write correct Dutch, or English as you're sending to to @openttd.org... 17:56:33 <xiong> I'm quite willing to go the distance here. I will work hard, study up, and pay attention. But it's not a one-way street. 17:56:35 <frosch123> though ais are not translatable yet :p 17:56:51 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 17:56:51 <planetmaker> xiong, wth? I don't NEED those directions. And I don'T SEE any question. Just agreeing on yes meaning yes is pretty pointless, right? 17:57:01 <TrueBrain> lol @ Rubidium 17:57:03 <TrueBrain> who this time? :P 17:57:06 <planetmaker> And I don't even KNOW where you're heading. 17:57:23 <planetmaker> This whole discussion, quite frankly, is to me - as far as I see - a complete waste of time 17:57:23 <xiong> Agreeing on 'GA' and 'NGA' meaning what they illustrate in that figure is not pointless. It is critical. 17:57:26 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: talk to Yexo & Hirundo about translations of NML; they have a form similar to OpenTTD's strings 17:57:44 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I know they were working on it, that is why I ask how it was going :) 17:57:52 <xiong> You can't see the point of it because you haven't heard the questions. You haven't heard the questions because you won't agree to the terms needed to state them. 17:58:06 <planetmaker> I don't see a single bit where all these 'agree on this and that' is going. And all I see is that all that won't be needed 17:58:10 <glx> just use screenshots 17:58:20 <xiong> The questions may not even be all that big, in your eyes. In mine, I need clarification. 17:58:33 <frosch123> TrueBrain: planetmaker already has to topics to query translations for nml-based grfs 17:58:41 <planetmaker> Yes. And as long as there's no question: why should I waste my time on pointless 'yes and no and whatever 17:58:42 <Hirundo> Example of NML translations can be found here: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=50423 17:58:53 <frosch123> if you can turn that into a website which integrates with redmine :) 17:58:59 <xiong> I cannot prove anything to you. You will have to take something on faith. I'm a mature, responsible person; I have a good reason for all of this. 17:59:13 <planetmaker> xiong, then go AHEAD 17:59:30 <xiong> I cannot proceed if you are not willing to buy into those terms. 17:59:37 <planetmaker> instead of wasting time by 'can we all please say it's nice' 17:59:38 <xiong> That's all I'm asking. 17:59:48 <TrueBrain> frosch123: redmine .. *shiffers* 17:59:52 *** fanioz [~fanioz@180.214.232.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:00:07 <planetmaker> xiong, if you can't live with me telling you here, I can't help you 18:00:08 *** enr1x [~kiike@230.227.21.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #openttd 18:00:14 <xiong> It's not a waste of time. It has been a considerable expense of time to define those terms -- 3 hours so far. I don't want to have to do this over. 18:00:32 <planetmaker> I'll answer in the forums when there's something interesting to say for me. Other than 'yes' 18:00:34 <TrueBrain> Hirundo: how far is it 'operational'? 18:00:52 <xiong> You said you wanted a thread. There is the thread. If you want some other place, that's okay too. But you must participate in it. This is a team effort; I cannot do this alone. 18:00:53 <planetmaker> xiong, then go on! Bloody hell 18:01:00 <planetmaker> I don't want a thread 18:01:01 <Belugas> xiong, since it is your project, i's say that rightnow, you have all that you need. you can now go ahead. the terms have been defined, this is waht you explained. 18:01:06 <planetmaker> Remember: you want signals 18:01:33 <planetmaker> I assumed you were off drawing signals. Well. They're best posted as graphics in the forums for other people to give feedback. 18:01:39 <Hirundo> NML is nearing 0.1.0 which should fully support vehicles and industries 18:01:39 <xiong> I don't know why you're upset, planetmaker. I know why I'm upset. Why is it hard to define terms? 18:01:42 <planetmaker> But... this... is so bloody boring 18:01:44 <Belugas> damned... i should realy do something about this keyboard... 18:01:55 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: give it up already .. we all did :D 18:02:02 <xiong> Okay, it's boring. Post to thread, saying you agree to these terms, and we can move on. 18:02:10 <xiong> I want this public and clearly defined. 18:02:13 <planetmaker> and I see nothing whatsoever where this will go. I don't see anything what point you try to make 18:02:19 <planetmaker> Nor anything where you're heading 18:02:38 <planetmaker> Now that you've made YOUR definition YOU can always use it. That's sufficient 18:02:43 <planetmaker> Do that. 18:02:43 <xiong> And you cannot see, because I cannot say, because we do not have agreed-upon terms. I've said that already. 18:02:45 <planetmaker> Or suck it 18:03:01 <planetmaker> I don't need to agree on 'directions'. As long as I understand you and you me 18:03:01 <xiong> You're angry. What's the point? 18:03:14 <planetmaker> you're wasting my time with this bloody fruitless discussion 18:03:16 <TrueBrain> @op planetmaker 18:03:19 *** mode/#openttd [+o planetmaker] by DorpsGek 18:03:20 <xiong> Also, as long as everyone who reads the thread understands. 18:03:34 <planetmaker> they will. But no one will see a point. So far 18:03:54 <xiong> Look, if you don't want to do this, I won't force you. No need to get angry. I can drop this right here. 18:04:10 <planetmaker> xiong, I CANNOT do anything UNLESS I have graphics 18:04:13 <planetmaker> But you're only talking 18:04:27 <planetmaker> instead of drawing. Off to the drawing board 18:04:40 <xiong> You can post to the thread, saying that you agree to those terms. You do not have to do so but until you do, I cannot move forward. 18:04:54 <planetmaker> bad luck for you mate 18:05:00 *** ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 18:05:00 <xiong> Or, of course, you can say they're unsatisfactory and we can do something else. 18:05:12 <TrueBrain> I am getting very bored reading the same question over and over 18:05:16 <TrueBrain> and reading the same reply over and over 18:05:41 <planetmaker> I won't reply to that posting. As it would be 100% meaningless 18:06:08 <planetmaker> It's a summary of the common directions used by the game. Yeah. So what? 18:06:09 <xiong> It is meaningful when you agree to speak about something using a word. It's extremely meaningful to me -- critical. 18:06:16 <TrueBrain> Hirundo: how do you mean: full support <subset of OpenTTD> 18:06:19 <TrueBrain> why not everything? 18:06:23 <Belugas> xion, advice: go on with your idea, based on what you have established. You don't need approval of planetmaker, nor anyone else. 18:06:24 <planetmaker> I don't jump that hook 18:06:38 <planetmaker> thanks, Belugas :-) 18:06:50 <Belugas> my pleasure :) 18:06:53 <TrueBrain> @deop planetmaker 18:06:56 *** mode/#openttd [-o planetmaker] by DorpsGek 18:06:56 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, it just needs more time to implement all that 18:06:58 <xiong> Belugas, this is not a case of approval. This is a case of agreement. I don't know how to make that more clear. 18:07:00 <planetmaker> :-D 18:07:08 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: so difficult? 18:07:15 <TrueBrain> (serious no clue about the work needed for that) 18:07:17 <davis> Allies set mode: -o Axis 18:07:25 <Belugas> i don't know exactly why you need an agreement for. 18:07:26 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, it's 8 actionA 18:07:26 <Hirundo> because (apart from action0/varact2 stuff) many features have their own special quirks that need handling, and time is limited 18:07:28 <Belugas> this is your project 18:07:32 <planetmaker> simplest newgrf imaginable 18:07:33 <Belugas> not planetmaker, nor mine 18:07:34 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: I know _nothing_ about NEwGRF 18:07:50 <TrueBrain> Hirundo: ic :D 18:07:52 <xiong> Belugas, Do I have to explain to anyone why it is important to agree on terms before discussing anything? 18:07:54 <planetmaker> well. 2nd simplest. The simplest is only the name w/o function 18:07:58 *** andythenorth_ [~andy@2.98.179.227] has joined #openttd 18:08:25 <planetmaker> xiong, you're not discussing 18:08:30 <xiong> I cannot just wave my hands wildly in the air. I need words in order to talk about them. 18:08:33 <Belugas> xiong, the fact that you posted that picture on the forums, on your project, is good enough 18:08:43 <planetmaker> ^ exactly 18:08:57 <Belugas> there is no need to have an "official" approval 18:08:57 <xiong> Belugas, Do *you* agree to those terms? If so, perhaps you'd like to post to that thread. 18:09:00 <TrueBrain> Hirundo: sorry, I have no clue why I was that lazy, I hate SMS talk ... I meant to say: I see :D 18:09:17 <Belugas> xiong, it is irrelevant that i agree or not. 18:09:30 <xiong> It's not official *except* as far as the bigsig project goes. For bigsig, it is official. 18:09:33 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55928dd9.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd 18:09:39 <andythenorth_> go north 18:09:49 <andythenorth_> I can see no north here 18:09:55 <planetmaker> xiong, that posting is the 'dictionary'. Make use of it. But don't wait for anyone going and saying 'oh great' 18:10:00 <andythenorth_> pickup north 18:10:03 <Belugas> for bigsig, it is. for openttd, bigsig is just another project 18:10:04 <andythenorth_> I can see no north here 18:10:07 <xiong> It's only relevant if you want to participate. That's up to you. 18:10:07 * planetmaker gives a Southpole to andythenorth_ 18:10:12 *** lobstah [~michielbi@86.89.201.189] has joined #openttd 18:10:14 <andythenorth_> use Southpole 18:10:24 <Belugas> therefor, bigsig should recongnize the terms and gp forawrd with its coures 18:10:29 <Belugas> course 18:10:54 <xiong> planetmaker, Do you want to do this? If not, fine; we'll just drop it. Either sign up, if you like, or not. The thread will remain. Perhaps someone else will get on, probably not. 18:11:17 <xiong> I will not do this by myself. 18:11:27 <Belugas> xiong, maybe you got the impression that planetmaker, myself or anyone wanted to join the project. not sure anyone even remotely menionned such an interest 18:11:58 <planetmaker> I offered to code the signal graphics, should he produce some. I stand by that, it's trivial 18:12:32 <planetmaker> But I don't need to do any voodoo or whatever social cozy-poozy 18:13:00 <Belugas> haa... ok. i remove my precedent comment 18:13:16 <planetmaker> but so far it's vapourware 18:13:20 <xiong> I'm not asking for anything more than simple agreement to the terms so defined. 18:14:03 *** lobstar [~michielbi@86.89.201.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:14:03 <Belugas> There 18:14:09 <planetmaker> Do you agree that air consists of 77% nitrogen and 22% oxygen and some minor rest? Why should anyone sign for that? 18:14:10 <Belugas> your turn noqw 18:14:12 <xiong> I'm not asking you to say that the terms are needed, helpful, useful, or important. Only that we both agree to use these terms unambiguously to refer to underlying concepts. 18:14:29 <planetmaker> I don't need that concept 18:14:32 <Belugas> xiong, i just did 18:14:46 <xiong> To say that certain track is GA and other track NGA is not a fact; it is a definition. 18:14:48 <Belugas> so it's time to go ahaed for you 18:16:01 <xiong> Thank you, Belugas. I appreciate that. But you are not the person who has indicated some willingness to build these graphics. Are you interested in this? I don't ask for commitment but simply if you have any interest, or even ability. No offense, I simply don't know. 18:16:06 <andythenorth_> 12% chance of paranormal activity in my house tonight 18:16:55 <planetmaker> andythenorth_, for only 500 GBP + expenses I'll try to pinpoint that :-) And remove any paranormal behaviour for an additional 500 GBP 18:16:58 <Belugas> no i'm not interested at all. I just want you to move ahead and start explaining in this thread why the terms are so important. It's just a matter of curiosity 18:17:05 <andythenorth_> planetmaker: http://www.paranormalsurveillance.com/ 18:17:12 <xiong> At this point, in order to draw graphics, I need to have a better understanding of game mechanics. To get that, I need to ask questions; to ask, I need words. 18:18:01 <Belugas> you now have words :) i just don't know if you will be able to fit those words on the game's mechanics, since you tried to impose a distinction that is not part of that mechanism 18:18:25 <xiong> Since I plan to be working with planetmaker to draw these graphics, it's pretty important that we discuss the same things using the same words. I think that should be obvious. If nobody is willing to build these graphics -- to translate PNG into Grf -- then the effort is futile. 18:19:04 <valhallasw> once you have graphics drawn, there will be enough people capable and willing to translate them into grfs 18:19:16 <xiong> This is a personal shortcoming of mine. I admit it. 18:19:20 <planetmaker> andythenorth_, http://ghoststudy.com/detectors.html 18:19:40 <andythenorth_> :) 18:20:01 <xiong> valhallasw, Do you accept the terms I have shown in that thread? If so, please post. 18:20:23 <valhallasw> what, do I have to sign an NDA? 18:20:35 <xiong> Look, after wasting about 2 hours yesterday on the topic of 'north', I'm simply not willing to discuss this game with anyone who will not agree to some set of terms. 18:21:16 <TrueBrain> valhallasw: yes, in duplo, with a 100 euro bill 18:21:18 <TrueBrain> :D 18:21:21 <xiong> Literally, 2 hours yesterday, with people going back and forth on the question of 'which way is north'. I won't do that again. 18:21:22 *** perk11 [~perk11@81.17.157.195] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:21:51 <planetmaker> xiong, just. go. by. your. definition. 18:21:52 <Mortomes> Instead we get 2 hours going back and forth on whether someone can agree with your "terms" 18:21:55 <planetmaker> Take it granted and move on 18:22:00 <Mortomes> What an improvement \o/ 18:22:06 <xiong> Today, it has been 4 solid hours on GA/NGA. These are clumsy terms and I don't care for them. But they are planetmaker's choices. I want that on thread. 18:22:30 <andythenorth_> this is nearly as much fun as watching the BROS train wreck :P 18:22:38 <valhallasw> Or, if there is confusion about what a certain term means, coin a new term 18:22:40 <xiong> I do not want to read, even once, that someone has a different opinion. 18:22:46 <Mortomes> ._. 18:22:54 <valhallasw> then why post on a discussion board? 18:22:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i have never looked in that BROS thread, what's going on there? 18:22:57 <andythenorth_> and slightly surpasses the stupidity of the UK bus set arguments 18:23:03 <andythenorth_> Eddi|zuHause: a whole lot of nothing :P 18:23:08 <andythenorth_> 27 pages of bitching 18:23:36 <andythenorth_> it's a microcosm of why British engineering and manufacturing is mostly fucked 18:23:41 <xiong> valhallasw, In order to gain a consensus. If you cannot agree to those terms, we will work on another set. 18:24:14 <valhallasw> Why would I have to agree to /your/ definitions when we communicate? 18:24:14 <andythenorth_> and openttd coop sets indicate why certain european countries knock UK dead on engineering & manufacturing 18:24:16 <xiong> I will spend as much time as needed to settle on terms. I'm not shy, I'm not demanding. I don't push my own set of terms here. 18:24:19 <valhallasw> Communication is a two-way thing. 18:24:19 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: like in The IT Crowd, where he asked "Why didn't it work?" and then the camera zooms in on the sticker "made in GB"? 18:24:26 <andythenorth_> pretty much 18:24:33 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: why do you have the wrong colour, anyway? 18:24:36 <andythenorth_> ? 18:24:36 <xiong> valhallasw, One more time: I did not choose those terms. 18:24:42 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: haha, I was wondering the same :D 18:24:57 <andythenorth_> Eddi|zuHause: colour? 18:25:07 <TrueBrain> Konversation can be annoying ... 18:25:20 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, he has a "_" 18:25:22 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: colours are calculated based on your nickname, and you have a different one than usual 18:25:28 <planetmaker> andythenorth_, you could (again) use the bouncer... 18:25:31 <planetmaker> or identify to it 18:25:36 <andythenorth_> Eddi|zuHause: I stopped using the bouncer 18:25:55 <Eddi|zuHause> trouble is, even if you changed your nick now, you'd keep the wrong colour 18:26:24 <TrueBrain> we can kick him 18:26:27 <TrueBrain> and he rejoins :D 18:26:53 <andythenorth_> or I might not 18:26:58 <andythenorth_> :P 18:27:09 <TrueBrain> [20:24] <xiong> I do not want to read, even once, that someone has a different opinion. <- was that a challenge btw? 18:27:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think he understood how a democracy works :p 18:28:00 <andythenorth_> what democracy? 18:28:19 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: you do know we have no democracy, right? 18:28:27 <TrueBrain> I mean .. I rule .. you obey. Sounds obvious enough :D 18:28:39 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: yes, but you at least have to know what you're missing :p 18:29:14 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: well, you rule, until someone else is crazy enough to become a sysop :p 18:29:19 <TrueBrain> :D 18:29:22 <TrueBrain> fair point 18:29:24 <TrueBrain> very fair in fact 18:29:43 <TrueBrain> I wonder what happens if I give you guys 10 minutes to spit out every shortcoming of WT3.0 ... 18:29:58 <planetmaker> hm. 18:30:01 <andythenorth_> it doesn't support FIRS? 18:30:09 <planetmaker> - fails sometimes on some {option} 18:30:12 <planetmaker> - newgrfs 18:30:14 <planetmaker> -website 18:30:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd rather spit on the lack of progress in WT 3.1 ;) 18:30:20 <planetmaker> - comments for other translators 18:30:43 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: I rather kick you 18:30:46 <TrueBrain> but you see me complaining? :p 18:30:55 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: {option}? 18:31:16 <planetmaker> I only see time and again some commits like wt3 messed up again on <whatever> 18:31:18 <TrueBrain> Hirundo: why did you guys went for OpenTTD style, and not gettext, like most sane people do? :D Cases again? 18:31:35 <xiong> planetmaker, I don't want to be rude. I'm sorry if you feel that way. I need a solid foundation from which to work. I realize that, with your much greater experience, you see things differently. But we are not going to be able to work together if you cannot condescend to my admitted inexperience. I simply can't telescope up to your level. I appreciate your initial willingness to encourage the project and I'm sorry we can't go on with 18:31:35 <xiong> it. 18:31:37 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, I guess we're in the OpenTTD community, you know ;-) 18:31:41 <TrueBrain> ah, yeah, Rubidium was complaining to me about a plural form being wrong ... most likely something that did not propegate correctly 18:31:49 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: i'm generally not complaining. only stating objective facts :p 18:31:57 <Hirundo> ^^ what planetmaker said :) 18:32:06 <TrueBrain> fair enough :) 18:32:16 <planetmaker> xiong, we can. You just need to walk on 18:32:22 <Eddi|zuHause> but as always with people in power, they find it insulting when someone points out the reality :p 18:32:42 <planetmaker> If my word is not enough, though. Sad 18:33:12 <andythenorth_> is there power? 18:33:23 <andythenorth_> I hadn't noticed :o 18:33:26 <Eddi|zuHause> anyone know teamviewer? 18:33:44 <xiong> planetmaker, You don't want to post to thread. That's fine; but we can't work together if that's a problem for you. Okay? No hard feelings. 18:33:49 <Eddi|zuHause> presume i have a connection from a linux computer and a windows computer, and all the colours come out wrong... 18:34:04 <planetmaker> xiong, WHY shall I post there? 18:34:15 <planetmaker> for your EGO? 18:34:18 <planetmaker> come on! 18:34:22 <TrueBrain> omg, is this still an issue and an ongoing topic? 18:34:39 * Hirundo politely suggests twitter as nonsense-discussion medium of choice 18:34:42 <xiong> planetmaker, Well, let me try a different tack. Because I asked. Just that, no more. As one human to another, I asked for it. 18:35:05 <xiong> Let's just go our separate ways, as friends. 18:35:15 <planetmaker> enjoy. 18:35:17 <Eddi|zuHause> some people just won't take a "yes, you're right" for an answer... 18:35:51 <planetmaker> I won't jump when I see not where it goes 18:36:29 <xiong> It goes directly to 'We agree to talk about these things using these words.' 18:37:05 <TrueBrain> some people just want stuff black and white, written in triple, printed, duplicated, lost, found again, filed, lost again, found back again, and then burried 18:37:08 <TrueBrain> (guess the reference) 18:37:50 <planetmaker> xiong, then get a printout from this channel 18:38:01 <planetmaker> you'll find more than one agreement 18:38:33 <xiong> Okay, well, that's past. I don't believe in argument. This is a free world; each of us has a right to choose to be in or out. Is there anyone in channel who *is* willing to agree to the terms in (http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=50450&p=908024#p908024)? Belugas has left. 18:38:35 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: i know that sentence, but i couldn't remember where i heard it 18:39:10 <TrueBrain> HHGTTG 18:39:24 <Eddi|zuHause> ah, that makes sense 18:39:42 <TrueBrain> when the Voguns or what are they called get a request 18:39:42 *** ar3kaw [~ident@87-239-75-101.internetia.net.pl] has quit [Quit: âI-n-v-i-s-i-o-nâ 3.2 (July '10)] 18:39:47 <valhallasw> xiong: seriously. stop waiting for explicity OKs and start working 18:39:49 <TrueBrain> well, in the movie at least 18:40:00 <Eddi|zuHause> the only occurances of bureucracy i could remember were futurama and asterix... 18:40:13 <Eddi|zuHause> +a 18:40:14 <TrueBrain> valhallasw: but we have nothing better to do and all we are here for is to give okays to people we don't know! 18:40:23 <valhallasw> xiong: the point of communication is being able to get your point across. If you get stuck defining terms, you will never get the point across. 18:40:29 <valhallasw> TrueBrain: Oh, right. I forgot 18:40:48 <xiong> No, valhallasw. I've explained myself in some detail. I spent 2 hours yesterday trying to settle the question of north. I'll spend 8 hours today on the topic, if I must. But not any more than that. 18:41:08 <valhallasw> Thats 10 hours not spent on actually making/discussing graphics 18:41:09 <xiong> I literally will not discuss the details of track and signalling with anyone who does not agree to some set of terms. 18:41:43 <Mortomes> xiong: So stop discussing it ._. 18:41:45 <xiong> They don't need to be terms of my choosing. But they do need to be some clear, publicly defined set of terms; and I want to see the agreement public as well. 18:41:59 <xiong> Mortomes, Haven't even started, unfortunately. 18:42:15 <planetmaker> that's why no agreement is needed 18:42:21 <valhallasw> What no-one here understands is why you want that public agreement 18:42:32 <Belugas> left? i did? 18:42:38 <Belugas> ho.. yeah.. i had to reboot 18:42:43 <TrueBrain> poor Belugas 18:42:46 <TrueBrain> did you survive? 18:42:54 <Belugas> barely.. 18:42:57 <Belugas> but yeah! 18:43:04 <Belugas> as long as music fills my ears 18:43:13 <xiong> It's a contract, valhallasw. You agree to say, 'Yes, I will use these terms.' It's not a big deal but it does lay a foundation -- common ground. It's impossible to have a rational conversation on any topic without common ground. 18:43:19 <Belugas> Led Zep - Going to California 18:43:22 <valhallasw> It *is* a big deal 18:43:58 <xiong> Belugas, Great, you're back. You're the only person who agrees to terms, so I hope you're also willing to discuss the substantive issues. 18:44:02 <planetmaker> xiong, you ask literally people to give consent to some discussion you will define in the future. That won't happen 18:44:16 <Eddi|zuHause> xiong: you miss the sense of scale. if defining the grounds for the conversation takes longer than the conversation itself, you are doing it wrong 18:44:25 <xiong> planetmaker, The meta-issue is over. You win. Have a nice day. Okay? 18:44:39 <planetmaker> ok. You're on ignore. Welcome 18:44:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i so wish i had +o right now 18:44:47 <Mortomes> \o/ 18:44:56 <TrueBrain> @op Eddi|zuHause 18:44:59 *** mode/#openttd [+o Eddi|zuHause] by DorpsGek 18:45:02 <valhallasw> You are asking people for their time when asking questions. First demanding them to sign a contract will not exactly persuade them to help you. 18:45:06 <xiong> Belugas, First, I find myself unable to lay NGA track on slopes. Is this a mistake on my part or a hard limitation? 18:45:09 <TrueBrain> (I keep mistyping those letters, dunno what happens) 18:45:09 <Belugas> xiong, no. i'm not willing. See, right now, i'm at work, doign some SQL stuff. I'm a kinda retired dev, who is painfully trying to manage real life (wife kid) with some ottd coding 18:45:18 *** xiong was kicked from #openttd by Eddi|zuHause [discussion over. thank you for attending.] 18:45:21 <TrueBrain> Belugas: you retired? :D 18:45:30 <TrueBrain> well, more like :( 18:45:35 * planetmaker hugs Eddi|zuHause 18:45:37 <valhallasw> I think Eddi|zuHause may have saved my fingers 18:45:40 <TrueBrain> @deop Eddi|zuHause 18:45:43 *** mode/#openttd [-o Eddi|zuHause] by DorpsGek 18:45:47 <Belugas> KINDA, TrueBrain, just.. KINDA 18:45:53 <TrueBrain> Belugas: :D :D :D 18:46:00 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: how does it feel? 18:46:05 * planetmaker hugs also TrueBrain 18:46:06 <Eddi|zuHause> wonderful ;) 18:46:15 <Eddi|zuHause> one good deed a day ;) 18:46:19 <TrueBrain> you have no idea how much it took from me to not do that hours ago 18:46:27 <planetmaker> :-) 18:46:37 <frosch123> TrueBrain: he does a good job at turning down feature requests :p 18:47:03 <Belugas> lol 18:47:30 <TrueBrain> :D 18:47:39 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: my respect for keeping up with him for so long 18:47:51 <planetmaker> I don't respect myself for that 18:47:52 <TrueBrain> which version of temper control do you have? 18:48:08 <Belugas> yeah, we all know you're a bitch, planetmaker ;) 18:48:09 <frosch123> http://www.freeorion.org/index.php/Philosophy <- Belugas: btw. we talked about freeorion last weekend, and the first wiki page i encountered when googling for it, could have been written by you :) 18:48:27 <planetmaker> :-D 18:48:39 <Belugas> yeah.. i looked at it... game looks interesting. mmmh... why by me? 18:48:45 * Belugas will re-read it 18:48:59 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, I guess some kind where the exit of the loop was like NOT_REACHED() 18:49:04 <frosch123> second section on that page 18:49:07 <frosch123> 1.1. actually 18:49:16 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: well, it was reached :D Just took much much longer than it did for me :) 18:49:24 <TrueBrain> although it did give me one goooooddddd laugh :) 18:49:28 <TrueBrain> I DEMAND YOU COMPLY WITH ME! 18:49:29 <andythenorth_> "Arguing that a certain micromanagement-heavy feature would be "optional" does not justify it." 18:49:37 <andythenorth_> fricking options 18:49:43 <andythenorth_> what do half of them do anyway? 18:49:47 <planetmaker> hehe :-) 18:49:54 <andythenorth_> every FIRS feature request comes with "but it could be optional" 18:49:58 <andythenorth_> yeah right 18:50:13 <andythenorth_> so I have to code, debug and QA a bunch of spaghetti code, instead of picking sensible defaults 18:50:16 <andythenorth_> not going to happen 18:50:25 <andythenorth_> </rant> 18:50:37 <planetmaker> go by your rant :-) 18:50:42 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: back to WT3 .. all entries stated by you are in fact a bit known entries. anything new? :D 18:50:43 <planetmaker> options are for > 1.0 ;-) 18:50:52 <planetmaker> :-D 18:51:04 <andythenorth_> > 1.0 should *remove* options :P 18:51:10 <andythenorth_> options are for finding out what's needed 18:51:13 <andythenorth_> perhaps not 18:51:23 *** xiong [~xiong@netblock-68-183-253-246.dslextreme.com] has joined #openttd 18:51:34 *** xiong [~xiong@netblock-68-183-253-246.dslextreme.com] has left #openttd [] 18:51:36 <andythenorth_> what does "Flat area around industries" do anyway? 18:52:05 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, not out of my head right now. It works quite nicely actually. 18:52:12 <Rubidium> andythenorth_: has Eddi not documented that yet? 18:52:18 <TrueBrain> so in over a year you have found no new things to add to WT3? 18:52:24 <planetmaker> Adding readme.txt to the translatable things IMHO would be next 18:52:41 <planetmaker> Not really :-) 18:52:43 <TrueBrain> lol 18:52:45 <TrueBrain> amasing :D 18:52:53 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: do you have any spin to it? 18:53:01 <planetmaker> Quality work pays 18:53:10 <planetmaker> beware, slippery slime ahead :-P 18:53:27 <Rubidium> TrueBrain, you mean: things to make translateable via WT3? 18:53:49 <TrueBrain> more: what features should a possible WT3.1 contain? 18:53:57 <TrueBrain> (which WT3.0 doesn't have) 18:54:07 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, maybe something like a 'category' feature: show all strings belonging to newgrf_gui 18:54:19 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: yeah, I have that on this (old old) list too :D 18:54:22 <planetmaker> but then... those are already similarily names, thus can be retrieved 18:54:23 <Rubidium> * simpler interface for assigning people to a language 18:54:33 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: read: admin interface 18:54:35 <TrueBrain> :D 18:54:39 <TrueBrain> it currently has *none* :p 18:54:54 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, bananas needs a proper user management ;-) 18:55:09 <TrueBrain> owh, BaNaNaS 18:55:11 <TrueBrain> blegh 18:55:16 <andythenorth_> bananas needs a simple patch to let me go straight to bananas when I login 18:55:20 <TrueBrain> someone else was going to write something for that, long long ago 18:55:30 * andythenorth_ presumes it's simple anyway 18:56:33 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: you don't want to hear the stuff already on FS regarding the website/WT3/bananas, right? 18:56:41 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:57:00 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: nope :p 18:57:09 <TrueBrain> in fact, only interested in WT3.1 atm 18:57:48 <planetmaker> right... IMHO the biggest advantage would be newgrf translations. But that's not 3.1 18:58:12 <TrueBrain> well, it partly is :) 18:58:50 <TrueBrain> I find 'schema' in postgres mostly useful btw, even more for such projects 18:58:58 <TrueBrain> avoids endless keys on all tables .. you just put 1 project in 1 schema 18:59:06 <planetmaker> it's quite difficult to get good translations. And it always needs a new newgrf for every string update. Not too cool either 18:59:33 <TrueBrain> I would almost suggest to link it to the content service :D 18:59:48 <TrueBrain> you remember I once wrote it for the client, that it fetches the translations from the web? :) 19:00:01 <planetmaker> Not quite 19:00:11 <planetmaker> but sounds interesting for the newgrf concept 19:00:28 <planetmaker> but still it needs a wt3 part where things are translated 19:00:32 <TrueBrain> yup 19:00:40 <TrueBrain> but yeah, I made a client patch which loaded all strings from the web, live 19:00:41 <planetmaker> but I don't see this being a small endeavour 19:00:46 <planetmaker> rather a BIG feature 19:00:49 <TrueBrain> so your WT3 translations were directly visible 19:00:59 <TrueBrain> so you could try different translations, and how they fit 19:01:05 <TrueBrain> dreadly slow, of course :D 19:01:11 <planetmaker> :-) 19:01:28 *** X-2 [~X-2@5ED67292.cm-7-7b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:01:51 *** X-2 [~X-2@5ED67292.cm-7-7b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 19:02:19 <TrueBrain> but yeah, having nightly newgrfs because of their translation updates might not be optimal :D 19:02:45 <planetmaker> well. You don't have that (usually) on bananas 19:03:00 <planetmaker> But see, another advantage to newgrf versions: you could use them there 19:03:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i broke teamviewer... 19:05:18 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC2C8E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:05:28 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd 19:07:04 <TrueBrain> bad Eddi|zuHause 19:07:22 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: well, you make ap oint there: we can in theory link those to the BaNaNaS :D Haha :) 19:07:25 <TrueBrain> too far .... 19:07:40 <TrueBrain> why are translations part of the newgrf, and not a seperated file (like in OpenTTD)? 19:07:44 <TrueBrain> (seriously asking, not judging) 19:07:51 <planetmaker> tradition 19:08:10 <TrueBrain> in what sense? 19:08:12 <planetmaker> as so many things in the newgrf arena 19:08:23 <Rubidium> actually, translations are "part" of OpenTTD as well 19:08:30 <TrueBrain> they are .lng files 19:08:38 <Rubidium> at least a language commit changes the binary 19:08:49 <planetmaker> newgrfs first allowed to (re)define strings. They are embedded 19:08:50 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I forgot how nitpicking you could be :D 19:08:51 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC2C0E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 19:09:06 <planetmaker> it *would* be sufficient if the newgrf contained an ID which is then read from a translation file 19:09:16 <planetmaker> that'd be newgrf version8 or so ;-) 19:09:19 <planetmaker> another thing for that 19:09:31 <Rubidium> but then each NewGRF will contain of like 50+ files 19:09:39 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: adding features doesn't need grf version 8 19:10:06 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: you can pack them to one, of course 19:10:08 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, depends. If action4 was re-defined 19:10:19 <planetmaker> something which in this case would then make sense 19:10:19 <TrueBrain> the point of this asking is if you can distribute translations next to the grfs itself, or that it is silly? 19:10:39 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, it doesn't work (easily) 19:10:43 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: i agree with you. i suggested that two years ago. 19:10:53 <Hirundo> Separate tranlations are already possible using the (flawed) action13 19:10:56 <planetmaker> But it's not silly. Not at all. On the contrary 19:11:04 <planetmaker> oh? 19:11:22 <Eddi|zuHause> what does action 13 do? 19:11:34 <Hirundo> replace DC00 / D000 grf texts 19:12:04 <planetmaker> so... a newgrf to translate another newgrf. How... nice 19:12:28 <Hirundo> The only problem is that the spec does not include a language ID 19:12:50 <Hirundo> So if the server loads a spanish translation grf, everyone will have to learn spanish 19:13:12 *** Mortomes [~mortomes@e58064.upc-e.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:13:12 <planetmaker> "nice" 19:13:33 <__ln__> not everyone, only those who don't know it already 19:13:36 * Rubidium proposes translating strings from another NewGRF. Lets call it action13 19:13:40 <TrueBrain> is it fixable in such way you can distribute 2 files, one with active translation, the other with data? 19:14:16 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: is it worth any serious consideration to distirbute translations over the content service? (like one of my patches once did) 19:14:30 <Hirundo> The "fix" for MP (without changing specs) is to have everyone load the proper translation grf as static grf for themselves 19:15:15 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: probably not 19:15:33 <TrueBrain> any additional argumentation? 19:16:33 <Rubidium> storing translations near the binary is non-trivial, storing the translations in the home directory means it only works with one of your binaries 19:17:09 <Rubidium> non-trivial as in: heh, I've installed OpenTTD as root and am not allowed to write there (replace root with Administrator in case of Windows) 19:17:52 <planetmaker> an additional folder in content_download like translations? 19:17:56 <TrueBrain> okay, and the other approach: live stream translations? 19:18:07 <planetmaker> where there the translations can be downloaded like other content? 19:18:26 <planetmaker> maybe automatically ticked when the proper newgrf is selected? 19:18:36 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: content_download mostly is in ~/.openttd, shared along all versions of your OpenTTD 19:18:41 <planetmaker> yes 19:18:44 <frosch123> translations are quite version specific 19:18:57 <planetmaker> but files bananas are also uniquely named 19:19:00 <frosch123> do you really want to download the 1.1. translation after updating to ottd 1.1 ? 19:19:04 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: so it fails for OpenTTD itself. might work for NewGRF thou ... 19:19:22 <planetmaker> yes. This was only meant to target newgrfs 19:19:23 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1D421.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:19:46 <planetmaker> I missed that you expanded the translations in general :-) 19:20:13 <TrueBrain> yeah, I tried to generalise it all; but that fails :D 19:20:20 <TrueBrain> live stream is also silly, requires a constant connection 19:20:21 <TrueBrain> nevermind that 19:20:32 <TrueBrain> so yeah, lets try to question again with only NewGRFs as target :D 19:20:45 <TrueBrain> guess that is easily enough: new category in BaNaNaS, and some glue in the client 19:20:50 <planetmaker> well. translation files... couldn't they contain a version number they correspond to in their header? 19:21:00 <planetmaker> With OpenTTD that'd be not too difficult, would it? 19:21:16 <planetmaker> and store translations then in a folder corresponding to the version 19:21:21 <TrueBrain> I agree with Rubidium that packing translations with OpenTTD itself is not that hard 19:21:28 <TrueBrain> for NewGRFs it is another story 19:22:01 *** enr1x [~kiike@230.227.21.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:22:04 <TrueBrain> but if you make newgrfs to translate a newgrf (ghehe), and load them optionally, so they can be updatd more often 19:23:45 *** JVassie [~James@92.27.149.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:23:47 <TrueBrain> frosch123: back to your questin, I personally wouldn't mind that if I startup 1.1 for the first time and select Dutch, it tells me: I need to download this translation. Continue. 19:24:05 <TrueBrain> but I also see no issue to pack it with OpenTTD 19:24:27 <frosch123> imo packing everything in one package is just easier 19:24:44 <frosch123> splitting makes only sense to save bandwidth, which does not seem to apply 19:25:21 <frosch123> and it's not like a new translation turns up from one day to another either :) 19:25:37 <TrueBrain> while, they do; we just don't distribute those like that :D 19:25:42 <TrueBrain> but mostly, it saves disk-space :p 19:26:11 <TrueBrain> I now I have 100k * N translations, where I only use 1 :D 19:26:30 <TrueBrain> kewl, my latest checkout is r20133 19:26:32 <TrueBrain> not too bad :) 19:26:34 <TrueBrain> @topic 19:26:35 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 1.0.4 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | English only 19:26:59 <planetmaker> indeed OpenTTD is still quite bandwidth friendly, given a single download 19:27:05 <planetmaker> many games are MUCH bigger 19:27:09 <TrueBrain> yup 19:27:11 <frosch123> wrt. to newgrfs. we could identify translation-only-static-grfs via action14 and the autoactivate them 19:27:15 <TrueBrain> well, in total OpenTTD can get BIG :D 19:27:21 <frosch123> (hidden from the gui / newgrf settings) 19:27:31 <KouDy> so i am trying FIRS but experiencing one issue... how on earth am i supposed to find where on map is located next part of chain (i am moving clay to paper mill and coal to steel mill) but how i am looking i can't find anything where to deliver next step 19:27:44 <TrueBrain> frosch123: would it be possible to have multplie languages in 1 of such newgrfs? 19:27:48 <planetmaker> KouDy, minimap 19:27:49 <frosch123> though i do not know the number-of-file-descriptor thingie of ottd fios stuff 19:28:06 <frosch123> TrueBrain: currently not 19:28:06 <andythenorth_> KouDy: which version of OTTD are you using? 19:28:19 <andythenorth_> Eddi|zuHause: http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=176369 19:28:29 <frosch123> due to flawed action13, and ottd anti-desyncing behaviour :) 19:28:57 <TrueBrain> no clue what you just said, but I kind of stopped reading after 'action' :D 19:29:10 <TrueBrain> sorry, newgrfs really always have been one big mystery to me :) 19:29:20 <frosch123> otoh we could alter action13 incompatibly in grf version 8, or even before as noone uses it anyway 19:29:33 <planetmaker> true 19:29:45 <planetmaker> newobjects were also re-defined ;-) 19:30:10 <TrueBrain> okay, other question: are all newgrfs (of importance) in some kind of VCS, or would there be need for 'import newgrf'? 19:30:28 <TrueBrain> where you upload a whole newgrf, which is handles (what ever) to allow translations? 19:30:29 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, those which are not, it's their own fault 19:30:31 <frosch123> all newgrfs of importance are versioned using hg :) 19:30:42 <planetmaker> :-D 19:30:42 <KouDy> planetmaker : i tried by my blindness strikes again :D 19:30:57 <KouDy> andythenorth_ : r20915 19:31:02 <frosch123> hmm, no openttd.grf is in svn 19:31:09 <planetmaker> KouDy, select in the minimap to show industries. And then only activate those types visible which suit you 19:31:18 <KouDy> mkay 19:31:18 <andythenorth_> KouDy: try the 'show chain' on industry 19:31:19 <planetmaker> frosch123, also in a hg 19:31:22 <KouDy> let's see 19:31:23 <frosch123> and i always miss the "," after "hmm, no" 19:31:25 <TrueBrain> either way a VCS 19:31:27 <andythenorth_> then 'link to smallmap' from the chain window 19:31:30 <andythenorth_> KouDy: ^ 19:31:42 <frosch123> planetmaker: ok, but only recently 19:31:45 <andythenorth_> should it be 'smallmap' or 'minimap' ? 19:31:47 <planetmaker> recently? 19:31:57 <planetmaker> As long as I'm around. Which is three years 19:32:09 <Belugas> tempus fugit... 19:32:10 <frosch123> hg only has "trunk" 19:32:13 <TrueBrain> next question: should there be an export to newgrf, or would you expect some other kind of export? And should it be able to auto-commit to (remote) VCSes? 19:32:19 <KouDy> witchcraft i say! 19:32:22 <frosch123> not the "extra" where openttd.grf sources were before 19:32:22 <KouDy> thanks :P 19:32:25 <Belugas> a preview of newgrf would be good 19:32:36 <Belugas> as wellas a preview of a scenario :) 19:32:43 * Belugas hides 19:32:43 <planetmaker> ^ :-) 19:32:52 <frosch123> Belugas: we already have scenario preview in 1.1 :) 19:32:56 * planetmaker pulls Belugas out of his corner 19:32:59 <frosch123> just not minimap preview 19:33:12 <Belugas> but but but... 19:33:15 <TrueBrain> well, what WT3.1 in the perfect world should have, is to put strings in the view they are in the game :p 19:33:23 <Belugas> i shall play da gameuh 19:33:25 <TrueBrain> but that is very unlikely 19:33:49 *** Mortomes [~mortomes@i15108.upc-i.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 19:33:50 <planetmaker> Belugas, infect your son ;-) Then you have a very good excuse 19:34:05 <Belugas> oh he is already... 19:34:09 <planetmaker> see ;-) 19:34:15 <TrueBrain> export of normal OpenTTD translations, requires .lng export, or only commit like it is now? 19:34:29 <Belugas> my wife does not allow him too much exposure, it's bad for his nerves ;) 19:34:33 <frosch123> Belugas: feel free to code the smallmap preview :) i concluded though that it could hardly share code with the ingame minimap, and thus stopped trying to add it 19:34:55 <Belugas> and you want ME to do it ? 19:34:57 <Belugas> prrrrrrt 19:35:03 <frosch123> :p 19:35:13 <Belugas> if you did fail, very littel chance i could succeed ;) 19:35:32 <Belugas> even now, with my poor bool performance of this morning ;) 19:35:52 <frosch123> bool performance? 19:36:13 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: how is the need for a 'forum' for a language? 19:36:22 <TrueBrain> and 'remarks per string' 19:36:46 <TrueBrain> and 'shared dictonary of common words' 19:36:57 <Belugas> stupid question i asked, trhis morning, frosch123, you were not "there" yet 19:37:04 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, a dictionary would be quite useful. Even for one-translator-only languages 19:37:34 <planetmaker> the remarks... could be if there are more than one. It could be used to discuss things 19:38:34 <planetmaker> they should allow different versions of the string with author name tag and maybe some additional text. Including date when added 19:38:56 <planetmaker> and an easy button to clear the discussion or at least to mark it obsolete / finished 19:39:02 <TrueBrain> You mean like: remark on string of date <blabla> by <bla>: I dont like it 19:39:18 <planetmaker> yeah. 19:39:28 <TrueBrain> but who is allowed to mark it finished .. 19:39:36 <planetmaker> every translator 19:39:39 <TrueBrain> if you get in a fight over something, the other always marks it as finished 19:39:48 <planetmaker> of course 19:40:00 <Rubidium> but they, and the history stay I'd say 19:40:25 <planetmaker> I see no problem that every translator can do that 19:40:26 <TrueBrain> you say what, sorry Rubidium? 19:40:37 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, keep track of discussions 19:40:46 <Rubidium> also anonymous-ish (has openttd-ldap account, but isn't translator) should be able to comment on strings 19:41:06 <planetmaker> ^ good idea. And I meant to say "keep track of discussions" (mind the "") 19:41:34 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: keep history of strings, including the discussion. Then you can easily see whether such a fight occurs and one might mediate in some manner 19:41:40 <planetmaker> which basically would mean to allow a discussion board for every string 19:41:53 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: would get endless and crowded 19:41:58 <TrueBrain> so I am tempted to go with planetmaker and allow deletion 19:42:02 <TrueBrain> or at least: 'hiding' 19:42:26 <planetmaker> 'solved'. Like 'mark reviewed' now 19:42:31 <planetmaker> might even be the same button 19:42:46 <planetmaker> oh, one non-string specific discussion board :-) 19:42:53 <planetmaker> for general things 19:43:03 <planetmaker> like the dictionary of common translations 19:43:09 <Rubidium> that's "link to forum-thread" :) 19:43:10 <TrueBrain> yeah, so you can put rules on them which you first have to read and reply to before you can translate 19:43:32 <Rubidium> rules for a language probable fit best in the wiki 19:43:38 <planetmaker> Rubidium, but the dict itself would be handy within wt3 19:43:45 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I was refering to something that happened in here earlier :p 19:44:02 <Rubidium> yeah, but grammar and general style stuff 19:44:08 <planetmaker> yeah 19:44:11 <TrueBrain> should also be in WT3 19:44:14 <TrueBrain> at least, easy viewable 19:44:22 <TrueBrain> WT3.1 will not only be for OpenTTD 19:44:39 <Rubidium> IMO it's better not to make the translator: a translator tool, forum and wiki 19:44:53 <TrueBrain> it won't 19:44:59 <TrueBrain> a forum suggests you can discuss everything on it 19:45:21 <TrueBrain> but every language should have a single page which contains a few pointers for translators 19:45:35 <planetmaker> hm, ok. just something similar to the code review function of redmine, attachable to each string 19:45:41 <TrueBrain> Like for german: please use ss over ringle-s 19:45:56 <planetmaker> the single page could be in the wiki as well. The existing wiki 19:46:07 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: again, I am not only making something for OpenTTD 19:46:17 <TrueBrain> and it truly is confined to the usage of WT3 19:46:17 <planetmaker> could be for any project ;-) 19:46:29 <planetmaker> a link to general rules :-P 19:46:32 <TrueBrain> url to redmine thingy? 19:46:43 <planetmaker> uhm... ? 19:46:49 <TrueBrain> [21:46] <planetmaker> hm, ok. just something similar to the code review function of redmine, attachable to each string 19:47:12 <planetmaker> ^ talking of how the string-related discussion could look like 19:47:17 <TrueBrain> yes; url? 19:47:22 <planetmaker> oh :-) 19:48:58 <planetmaker> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/newgrf-makefile/repository/entry/.hgignore?rev=43&review_id=18 19:49:09 *** Guest2603 is now known as V453000 19:49:29 <planetmaker> hm... that link doesn't work... 19:49:50 <TrueBrain> feel free to tell me where to click 19:50:59 <planetmaker> let me try to find an open code review :-) 19:51:25 *** ar3k [~ident@87-239-75-101.internetia.net.pl] has joined #openttd 19:51:43 *** joern [~joern@85.183.114.52] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:54:11 <planetmaker> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/avignon-plugin/repository/diff/Openttdcoop/openttdcoop.tcl?rev=2&review_id=16 19:54:17 <planetmaker> ^ TrueBrain 19:54:35 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-25-201-208.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 19:55:05 <TrueBrain> I am looking at a diff ... 19:55:26 <planetmaker> yes. And there's an overlay window with a remark concerning a certain line 19:55:37 <TrueBrain> nopuh :D 19:55:51 <planetmaker> probably needs java script or whatever 19:56:00 <TrueBrain> more likely a login ;) 19:56:25 <planetmaker> I'll get you a screenshot 19:56:29 <TrueBrain> thank you :D 19:56:31 <TrueBrain> was about to ask ;) 19:56:32 *** ballista [~Trebuchet@69.51.104.87] has joined #openttd 19:56:45 *** trebuchet [~Trebuchet@69.51.104.87] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:58:34 *** nicfer [~nicfer@190.50.16.140] has joined #openttd 20:00:29 <planetmaker> http://img.openttdcoop.org/images/gameoption.png 20:00:54 *** joern [~joern@85.183.114.52] has joined #openttd 20:01:06 <TrueBrain> lol, a real window 20:01:07 <TrueBrain> that is silly 20:01:10 <TrueBrain> but yeah, I get the point :) 20:01:24 <planetmaker> it's not an OS window 20:01:24 <TrueBrain> rather nice :) 20:01:35 <planetmaker> but yes, useful :-) 20:01:40 <TrueBrain> k 20:01:53 <TrueBrain> anything else I need to know for WT3.1 development, related to OpenTTD and NML (or what was it called)? 20:03:37 <planetmaker> hm... NML is 'just' some means to write newgrfs... with the advantage to accept OpenTTD lng file format :-) 20:04:04 <TrueBrain> but wasn't that the url Hirundo gave me? 20:04:52 <KouDy> andythenorth_ : still here? 20:04:54 <Hirundo> I just gave a link to a translation topic, so you could see NML's lang file format 20:04:59 <andythenorth_> hi 20:05:09 <TrueBrain> yeah, that was NML 20:05:14 <KouDy> how to work with FIRS translation? 20:05:14 <planetmaker> most likely. 20:05:18 <TrueBrain> (sorry, my memory goes back like 10 minutes, at most :p) 20:05:28 <KouDy> i'd do some stuff i guess :) 20:05:32 <planetmaker> mine, too. I was searching for what you meant ;-) 20:05:47 <andythenorth_> KouDy: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=41607&start=1920 20:05:56 <TrueBrain> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=50423 20:06:16 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, NML is to grfcodec what C is to assembler ;-) 20:06:20 <TrueBrain> I do see a few issues there 20:06:33 <planetmaker> s/grfcodec/nfo/ 20:06:47 <TrueBrain> most noticable issue is the newlines 20:06:51 <TrueBrain> those really have to be removed 20:07:01 <TrueBrain> {} means newline, no need to add a \n too 20:07:05 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, I just added them so it doesn't break layout 20:07:11 <TrueBrain> pfew 20:07:12 <planetmaker> They must not be in the translation file 20:07:13 <TrueBrain> k 20:07:14 <TrueBrain> :) 20:07:17 <planetmaker> :-) 20:07:25 <TrueBrain> why: lang: 7F 20:07:26 <KouDy> yea i saw that one 20:07:27 <TrueBrain> and not: lang: de 20:07:39 <planetmaker> 7F=default. 02=German 20:07:39 <KouDy> buuut http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/show/sprites/nfo/lang is weird website :) 20:07:45 <TrueBrain> I don't like numbers 20:07:55 <TrueBrain> can't what ever translated nml to grfs fix that? 20:07:56 <planetmaker> I copied the default language. It's the newgrf number for languages 20:08:15 <planetmaker> Yes, could. For known languages :-) 20:08:16 <andythenorth_> KouDy: use the text file in this post: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=908030#p908030 20:08:25 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: given all languages are known, that should not be hard 20:08:38 <KouDy> aaah 20:08:39 <KouDy> ok 20:08:41 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, but new ones will be added. Then that cannot be translated 20:08:52 <planetmaker> And they'll need a new newgrf langID 20:08:58 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: why not? It just needs an update somewhere :) 20:09:12 <TrueBrain> if a new {} command is added, it also needs to be told 20:09:17 <TrueBrain> we fixed that by making strgen export those things 20:09:32 <planetmaker> yes. But that's a change of the language definition specs 20:09:46 <TrueBrain> yes; so it needs to propegate any way :p 20:09:49 <TrueBrain> but okay, I see your point 20:09:49 <planetmaker> while adding another language currently only needs defining the meaning of a number 20:10:10 <TrueBrain> but making a language 9E or what ever doesn't magically works 20:10:16 <TrueBrain> OpenTTD needs to be told which language that is either way 20:10:17 <planetmaker> what can (and at some point probably will) be done is to offer (alternatively) some better readable way 20:10:24 <KouDy> not much of texts... good... i will post it tomorrow through the day i think (depends how bored i will be at work :D ) 20:10:26 <TrueBrain> so WT3.1 won't have that language till that time anyway 20:10:34 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, OpenTTD knows it. It knows these numbers 20:10:41 <Rubidium> OpenTTD's language files contain those numbers 20:10:41 <TrueBrain> when being told :) 20:10:45 <planetmaker> That's where they come from 20:10:54 <TrueBrain> so I don't see the issue here :D 20:11:00 <TrueBrain> for OpenTTD to use a new number, it needs to know it 20:11:06 <TrueBrain> so why not use text there? :) 20:11:18 <planetmaker> Because then every newgrf tool needs an update, too 20:11:29 <TrueBrain> what translates NML to whatever for grfs? 20:11:36 <planetmaker> nmlc ;-) 20:11:42 <planetmaker> yes 20:11:42 <TrueBrain> why not strgen? 20:11:45 <TrueBrain> would have made sense to me :D 20:11:58 <planetmaker> because newgrfs are different... 20:12:06 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: because nasm doesn't compile C 20:12:13 <KouDy> #define TEXT_CRG_BUILDINGMATERIALS_1UNIT "\UE07C ton of building materials" is line for 1 unit of BM 20:12:18 *** joern [~joern@85.183.114.52] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:12:24 <TrueBrain> okay ... so strgen just needs to export the codes with language tags 20:12:32 <KouDy> i will need separate lines for 2, 3 and 4 20:12:39 <KouDy> can i simply add them? 20:12:47 <planetmaker> no, unfortunately, KouDy 20:12:57 <planetmaker> one or many 20:13:00 <KouDy> o 20:13:01 <KouDy> k 20:13:14 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: strgen is unaware of the language number to language name link, until it loads a language file 20:13:26 <TrueBrain> huh? Now I am confused .... 20:13:29 <KouDy> tho guys you have cargos that are not really translatable :) 20:13:33 <TrueBrain> some system has to be able to map this number to an OpenTTD language name 20:13:36 <TrueBrain> which part does that? 20:13:52 <Rubidium> http://translator.openttd.org/en/settings <- the "grflangid" 20:13:59 <TrueBrain> ffs 20:14:17 <TrueBrain> that simply sucks balls 20:14:56 <planetmaker> if grfs were defined completely new now, things would be done differently ;-) 20:15:09 <TrueBrain> goes for a lot of things :D 20:15:28 <TrueBrain> so it will need some special glue for that 20:15:30 <TrueBrain> fine, be like that 20:15:37 <andythenorth_> KouDy: some of the FIRS cargos are probably US / UK specific :P 20:15:47 <KouDy> yes i can see that :) 20:15:48 <Rubidium> or write a tiny script 20:15:50 <andythenorth_> if you need to check them ask here :) 20:16:04 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: as I said: glue 20:16:30 <KouDy> speaking here... can this IRC server accessed through some website? 20:16:33 <KouDy> mibbit maybe? 20:16:44 <planetmaker> sure 20:16:48 <Adambean> anyone use x-chat? i accidentally the menu bar 20:17:03 <TrueBrain> you forgot a verb there :D 20:17:17 <Mortomes> He accidentally a verb 20:17:22 <Adambean> :P 20:17:57 <TrueBrain> I like you Mortomes :D 20:18:02 <Adambean> fixed. ctrl+f9 20:19:39 * Adambean has gone 20:19:50 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing] 20:20:12 *** joern [~joern@85.183.114.52] has joined #openttd 20:20:13 <TrueBrain> "railvoertuigen" <- lol @ Hirundo :D 20:20:19 <TrueBrain> sorry, sometimes dutch words are just amusing to me :D 20:20:42 <Hirundo> Perhaps I should not have attempted a literal translation :) 20:20:57 <TrueBrain> for this you needs a preset dict, so you can just look it up :) 20:20:57 <Rubidium> "railvehikels"? 20:21:06 <TrueBrain> wagons? :D 20:21:24 <TrueBrain> treinwagon, if you want to be over explicit 20:21:38 <Eddi|zuHause> "vehikel" in german is more used like an insult ;) 20:21:50 <planetmaker> ? 20:21:51 <Rubidium> doesn't include the engines (locs) 20:21:52 <TrueBrain> and here it is only used by people who think they are more than the rest :D 20:22:13 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: treinstel 20:22:32 <TrueBrain> but either way, I am sure it is already translated 10 ways in the OpenTTD language :D Doesn't matter, it just made me giggle 20:22:36 <TrueBrain> and realise Hirundo is dutch 20:22:43 <planetmaker> :-D 20:22:54 <Hirundo> 'treinstel' doesn't capture everything either 20:23:06 <Rubidium> neither does "bak" 20:23:25 <Rubidium> e.g. "een 4-bakker" 20:23:49 <TrueBrain> kewl, "rail vehicle" is not used in english translation 20:23:52 <Rubidium> though maybe that wiki has something about it 20:23:53 <Eddi|zuHause> <TrueBrain> and realise Hirundo is dutch <--- these things happen to me fairly often. sometimes repeatedly with the same person :p 20:23:59 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55928dd9.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:24:21 <TrueBrain> so the "bug" is in english :D 20:24:29 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: try "Rail Vehicle" 20:24:34 *** Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe83de00-38.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 20:24:39 <TrueBrain> grr @ vi! 20:24:40 <Hirundo> I guess, the english wasn't written by a native speaker either 20:24:51 <TrueBrain> I said: search for [Rr]ail [Vv]ehicle 20:24:52 <TrueBrain> tnx Rubidium 20:24:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a feeling civ5 lacks some serious depth 20:25:14 <TrueBrain> railvoertuigen in dutch.txt too, so Hirundo did a good job. It still makes me giggle :D 20:25:24 *** JVassie [~James@92.27.149.231] has joined #openttd 20:25:37 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: and yeah, I am sure I already knew Hirundo was dutch, and I will realise it many more times over the next few years :p 20:25:55 <TrueBrain> "monorailrailvoertuigen" <- that is just wrong 20:26:20 <TrueBrain> but okay ... translations always suck balls :D 20:26:39 <KouDy> http://www.tt-foundry.com/ is down or is it only me? is that btw the website where things about FIRS are described right? 20:26:45 <TrueBrain> right, collected enough data for one day .. planetmaker: thank you ever so much for all your time and stuff explaining the stuff :D 20:26:48 <Rubidium> "rollend materieel"? 20:26:50 <andythenorth_> KouDy: it's down :( 20:26:51 <TrueBrain> and tnx to the rest for all the info :D 20:27:14 <KouDy> ok 20:29:44 <andythenorth_> tt-foundry should be back tomorrow or Friday 20:29:49 <andythenorth_> we had database corruption 20:29:51 *** murr5y [~murray@112.84-48-67.nextgentel.com] has joined #openttd 20:31:32 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1D421.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 20:32:34 <Hirundo> Am I correct in seeing that the smoke offsets as returned by CB10 aren't actually applied for anything other than steam? 20:33:16 <Hirundo> HandleLocomotiveSmokeCloud, train_cmd.cpp around line 2000 20:34:11 *** murr4y [~murray@112.84-48-67.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:34:12 <Rubidium> guess so 20:34:24 <planetmaker> No worries, TrueBrain , my pleasure 20:34:45 <planetmaker> But I don't have now to reply to your posting that I agree by some terms, do I? 20:35:07 * TrueBrain closes his browser fast before he hit the submit button .. 20:35:14 <Rubidium> Hirundo, from the specs: "Note, currently only the positioning of steam actually works" 20:35:16 <planetmaker> lool 20:35:22 <TrueBrain> that guy still makes me laugh 20:35:45 <Hirundo> Rubidium: Is that TTDP, OTTD or both? 20:35:50 <planetmaker> I'm not sure whether I shall laugh or cry 20:36:06 <TrueBrain> that you consider yourself so important and so "correct" .. that is just amusing 20:36:07 <Rubidium> Hirundo: the specs, and by the looks of our code that includes OpenTTD 20:36:10 <planetmaker> belugas probably is right that it was a kind of clash of cultures 20:36:13 <planetmaker> gone wrong 20:36:29 <KouDy> what everything is Farm Supplies? 20:36:39 <KouDy> same for engineering supplies 20:36:41 <planetmaker> KouDy: anything needed to run a farm 20:36:41 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: the way he entered already was insane 20:36:56 <KouDy> well like fertiliser that is in separate category? :) 20:37:01 <TrueBrain> stating that he talked to others and that it was insane we didn't have a convention for it .. like .. say what? :D It only went downhill from there :p 20:37:11 <planetmaker> from fertilizer through screws to tractors and animal food 20:37:19 *** murr5y is now known as murr4y 20:37:24 <Hirundo> "The bug is in the specs, so it's a feature" 20:37:29 <KouDy> ok 20:37:33 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: it was not the first time or day I talked to him 20:37:47 <TrueBrain> he comes here more often? :p 20:37:49 <planetmaker> he was here the last days. But yeah 20:37:52 <TrueBrain> and he survived? :p 20:37:59 <planetmaker> Asking weired questions, not understanding signals at all 20:38:09 <Rubidium> Hirundo: no, we implemented the spec including it's caveats 20:38:15 <Rubidium> s/'// 20:38:18 <TrueBrain> weird people have to exist too :) 20:38:33 <planetmaker> KouDy: similar goes for engineering and manufacturing supplies 20:38:57 <planetmaker> all those things you need to run the business 20:39:09 <andythenorth_> manufacturing supplies is packaging, parts, or tools....e.g. bottles, jars, cans, wrapping, boxes, stickers, machinery etc 20:39:23 <planetmaker> it was once called packaging ;-) 20:39:30 <andythenorth_> there was also parts 20:39:34 <andythenorth_> I put them together :) 20:39:45 <Rubidium> "may contain traces of packing peanuts" :) 20:40:08 <planetmaker> :-D 20:40:34 <TrueBrain> on what product did we read that the other day ... 20:40:35 <KouDy> it's very tricky to translate... 20:40:44 <TrueBrain> ffs, can't remember ... it was to insane to be true 20:40:46 <TrueBrain> I believe on chicken 20:40:47 <planetmaker> I agree, KouDy :-) 20:40:50 * Rubidium likes the allergy information on the peanut butter: "may contain traces of peanut" 20:41:08 <TrueBrain> yeah, the chicken had: might contain traces of nuts 20:41:19 <TrueBrain> like ... what the fuck do they feed those people operating the machines to make chicken meat? 20:41:41 <Rubidium> they probably slaughter cows there as well 20:42:03 <andythenorth_> KouDy: try translating what it's for, not what it is? 20:42:24 <KouDy> because here word supplies in connection with word farm can mean "things you need for production" (fertiliser, seeds, etc) but also it can mean "thing that you will produce" 20:42:25 <Rubidium> and thus possibly animals with bovine spongiform encephalopathy 20:43:02 <Rubidium> a.k.a. mad cow disease, so the cows are nuts 20:43:06 <andythenorth_> KouDy: if read literally, English could do same with "Farm Supplies" :P 20:43:17 <KouDy> i see 20:43:30 <KouDy> meaning is what you need for production 20:43:35 <andythenorth_> yes 20:43:35 <andythenorth_> let me look up some alternatives, you can try them 20:43:49 <KouDy> that's worse case :) 20:44:02 <KouDy> second one (what you will produce is easy) 20:44:45 <andythenorth_> provisions / stores / stocks / necessities / components / inputs / parts / deliveries 20:44:49 <andythenorth_> (thesaurus) 20:44:58 <Belugas> woooooo... and it makes me wonder 20:45:01 <Rubidium> *stuff* 20:45:03 <Belugas> woooooo... and it makes me wonder 20:45:06 <KouDy> well i am going to rename Engineering Supplies to Components or Parts :) 20:45:22 <Terkhen> yeah, I was very tempted to translate them as "stuff" :) 20:45:25 <andythenorth_> would that cover fuel, explosives etc? :) 20:45:30 <andythenorth_> stuff is probably ok 20:45:47 <Belugas> And my spirit is crying for leaving 20:45:47 <KouDy> stuff? that's even worse for translation :) 20:45:55 <KouDy> in combination with engineering 20:46:05 <Belugas> and the VOices of those who stand looking 20:46:11 <Terkhen> "Suministros de IngenierÃa" makes cargo widgets ridiculously long 20:46:21 * andythenorth_ wonders if the levee will break 20:47:04 <planetmaker> [22:47] <Belugas> And my spirit is crying for leaving <-- you better keep your spirit ;-) 20:47:06 <andythenorth_> thesaurus says 'materials' 20:47:12 <planetmaker> (sorry, today is nitpicking day :-P ) 20:47:38 * Belugas checks on Stairway to Heaven lyrics 20:48:31 <andythenorth_> gear, implements, devices, doohickeys, paraphernalia, gizmos 20:48:40 * Belugas 's memory is good :) 20:48:55 <Belugas> #There's a feeling I get 20:49:02 <KouDy> materials... 20:49:03 <Belugas> #When I look to the West 20:49:03 <KouDy> hmmm 20:49:16 <Belugas> #And my spirit is crying 20:49:20 <Belugas> #for leaving 20:49:25 <Belugas> what a song... 20:49:38 <Belugas> no, really.. what an incredible song 20:49:39 <KouDy> that here would mean ... hmmm like for engineering raw materials (iron ore) 20:49:47 <KouDy> not too sure 20:49:52 <KouDy> i will think about it 20:50:07 <KouDy> i am currently using word necessities 20:50:50 <KouDy> plant fibers 20:51:00 <KouDy> what is that used for? 20:51:16 <planetmaker> ropes. fabric 20:51:28 <planetmaker> clothes 20:51:48 <andythenorth_> textiles 20:51:51 *** zachanima [~zach@2506ds3-od.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #openttd 20:52:01 <andythenorth_> and also cellulose-based plastics 20:52:11 <andythenorth_> like cellophane, rayon, etc 20:52:23 <andythenorth_> it's hemp, sisal, flax etc 20:52:24 <planetmaker> KouDy: it helps, if you get a recent nightly, start a firs game and look at the cargo chains 20:52:47 <KouDy> ok i have it 20:52:49 <planetmaker> then you get a view what industries produce and accept 20:53:02 <KouDy> mixed farm... 20:53:04 <KouDy> yea 20:53:10 <KouDy> nice term for translation :) 20:53:31 <Terkhen> :D 20:53:54 <planetmaker> I'd like an ice cream with a whip of mixed farms? 20:55:45 <bryjen> or do you prefer your farms shaken, not stirred? 20:56:21 <KouDy> guys... 20:56:27 <KouDy> Forge 20:56:47 <KouDy> should be imho renamed in english to Smelting Works 20:56:47 <planetmaker> a smith may work there 20:56:51 <KouDy> no 20:56:59 <andythenorth_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finery_forge 20:57:05 <andythenorth_> it might get changed 20:57:11 <andythenorth_> I don't think it works in gameplay 20:57:19 <andythenorth_> it's a recent addition and has some...problems 20:58:03 <andythenorth_> Mixed Farm: http://stats.oecd.org/glossary/detail.asp?ID=1667 20:58:32 <andythenorth_> http://www.bellshillfarm.co.uk/ 20:58:40 <KouDy> i don't know... place where you put iron ore and wood "together" is smelting works or smelter, forge is working with product of smelter... 20:58:45 <KouDy> tho i am not really sure 20:59:20 <andythenorth_> KouDy: in early USA settlement, forge & smelter were same 20:59:23 <andythenorth_> but not in Europe 20:59:30 <peter1138> Are you talking about OpenTTD or Minecraft here? :p 20:59:33 <andythenorth_> anyway, it's bad in game 20:59:40 <andythenorth_> aggh minecrack 20:59:43 *** Chruker [~no@port113.ds1-vj.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [] 21:00:23 <__ln__> http://www.bild.de/BILD/politik/wirtschaft/2010/10/13/ice-test-im-eurotunnel/premiere-unter-dem-aermelkanal.html 21:01:05 <Eddi|zuHause> the thing with the euro tunnel is weird... 21:02:22 <planetmaker> nice, __ln__ :-) 21:02:29 <Eddi|zuHause> they once said: the company responsible for letting trains through the tunnel set the requirements. one of this requirement was a train length twice of what usual trains in europe are, so only eurostar would have suitible trains for crossing the tunnel 21:02:29 <dihedral> lol - reading the backlog of this xiong person is fun 21:03:14 <KouDy> #define TEXT_IND_BAKERY "Grain Mill" 21:03:23 <frosch123> hmm, do regular trains also drive 30 km/h in there? 21:03:25 <KouDy> bakery is place using product of grain mill :) 21:04:50 <andythenorth_> bakery is being changed to grain mill 21:04:57 <KouDy> ok 21:05:03 <andythenorth_> but the defines aren't changed yet because that screws with translations :o 21:05:19 * planetmaker hugs andythenorth_ 21:05:30 * andythenorth_ badly wants to refactor :P 21:05:38 <andythenorth_> cruft hurts 21:06:36 *** elmz_ [~elmz@184.213-167-126.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:09:28 <Eddi|zuHause> btw. this technique is common. when publicly offering contracts, you can't just say "i want company XYZ to get it". but you can talk with company XYZ beforehand, and write certain details in the contract that only this company would be able to fulfill 21:11:05 <Belugas> ho.. a first frmo a long time 21:11:17 * Belugas waves good by to all of ya 21:11:22 <Belugas> goodbye 21:11:30 <Belugas> mmmh... really need to sleep 21:11:47 <frosch123> also night :) 21:11:51 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f4540.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:14:18 *** andythenorth_ [~andy@2.98.179.227] has quit [Quit: andythenorth_] 21:15:28 <dihedral> looks like planetmaker has a huge fan :-P 21:15:34 <dihedral> but then i am only on page 6 of 10 21:15:50 <planetmaker> oh, no fan anymore ;-) 21:15:57 <planetmaker> I fell from his good graces ;-) 21:16:00 *** andythenorth_ [~andy@2.98.179.227] has joined #openttd 21:16:48 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4db0fa82.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: bis dann] 21:18:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i still don't understand what he actually wanted... 21:18:47 <andythenorth_> good night 21:18:48 *** andythenorth_ [~andy@2.98.179.227] has quit [] 21:20:32 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-78-102-180-216.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:20:59 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF9507.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:22:03 <Eddi|zuHause> anyone ever tried to map thee newgrf-string-replacement for "generic strings" to openttd StringIDs? 21:22:58 <dihedral> <planetmaker> I fell from his good graces ;-) <- hold it - i have not read up so far 21:24:22 <Eddi|zuHause> *spoilers* 21:32:50 <dihedral> well - took you guys long enough to get rid of the guy 21:36:07 <planetmaker> it was not my intention to, but well 21:36:24 <dihedral> i was surprised he was in the channel as long as he was 21:36:37 <dihedral> sometimes it does take that too 21:42:56 *** Devroush [~dennis@ip-83-134-172-177.dsl.scarlet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:43:23 *** Devroush [~dennis@ip-83-134-160-50.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #openttd 21:48:07 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has joined #openttd 21:58:00 *** bryjen [~bryjen@63.147.94.149] has quit [Quit: Quit] 22:05:44 *** Uresu [~Wes@5aceb715.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 22:07:54 *** Uresu [~Wes@5aceb715.bb.sky.com] has quit [] 22:13:02 <Terkhen> good night 22:16:06 <planetmaker> good night Terkhen 22:24:31 *** ccfreak2k [~ccfreak2k@4chan.fm] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:24:47 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:31:04 *** snorre [~snorre@c692BBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:38:04 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@grm-lovas-128-39-61-228.studby.uia.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:40:35 *** snorre [~snorre@c692BBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #openttd 22:45:45 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has quit [Quit: .] 23:01:44 *** JVassie [~James@92.27.149.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:05:42 *** avdg [~avdg@94-227-100-192.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:13:03 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:15:32 <Yexo> seriously, what was with xiong tonight? 23:15:37 <Yexo> yes, I'm just now reading the backlog 23:16:33 <SmatZ> @dict xiong 23:16:53 <SmatZ> Hua Xiong (? â 191) was a military general under the tyrannical warlord Dong Zhuo during the late Eastern Han Dynasty and Three Kingdoms era of China. 23:16:57 <SmatZ> enough for me :) 23:18:45 <glx> I still don't understand why he needs to define terms for just drawing signals 23:19:06 <Yexo> that's what I'm still wondering about 23:19:24 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 23:19:25 <Yexo> unfortunatly that discussion was interwined with TrueBrain asking something about WT3.1 23:19:48 <glx> the discussion was just silly 23:26:45 <SmatZ> XIONG has 5 contributions at tt-forums, but the list shows only 2 http://www.tt-forums.net/search.php?author_id=23798&sr=posts - so 3 were deleted for some reason 23:27:12 <SmatZ> the quality of those which are still visible is disputable... 23:27:14 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:27:40 <Yexo> 3 of his posts are in the spam bin 23:27:44 <SmatZ> "I am sorry to say that has not wrong" "CorrectïŒI must agree," 23:27:55 <SmatZ> maybe it's a bot? 23:27:57 <SmatZ> :p 23:28:22 <Yexo> "I think I encountered the same problem and you, up to now have not been solved, I do not know how to do", "I have to say looks very good ..." and "Ditto here~ïŒ. I support your point of view ã" 23:28:53 <Yexo> I have to say his non-deleted posts are not much better 23:29:01 <SmatZ> :^) 23:30:25 <SmatZ> maybe he uses an automatic chinese-english translator 23:30:49 <Yexo> doesn't look that way judging from irc 23:35:10 <SmatZ> normal person can't type such sequences of words and punctuation 23:42:21 <Yexo> TrueBrain: my main wish for wt3.1 is for it to support multiple projects properly (or multiple branches of one project). Given that itcan already commit to svn it's probably easy to adapt that to mercurial 23:43:17 <Yexo> all other features like a forum/remakrs page per language or even remakrs per string are all nice to have but very low prioerity imo 23:52:05 *** Devroush [~dennis@ip-83-134-160-50.dsl.scarlet.be] has quit [] 23:55:31 *** ccfreak2k [~ccfreak2k@4chan.fm] has joined #openttd 23:56:29 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.22.66.123] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 23:57:20 *** ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:59:57 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:ed84:2b94:539d:c753] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]