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00:05:47 *** Devroush [~dennis@94-225-75-247.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 00:11:42 *** mr_boo [d5b90122@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 00:12:13 <mr_boo> where can I get the computer controlled players when the website is down? 00:13:22 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 00:14:16 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-5d823206.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:16:05 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:16:33 <mr_boo> i read that I can access the files throught ftp but I don't know what to download from there 00:19:36 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF97D7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:20:10 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.8.200.216] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 00:20:11 <Eddi|zuHause> try http://ftp.snt.utwente.nl/pub/games/openttd/binaries/bananas/ai/ and http://ftp.snt.utwente.nl/pub/games/openttd/binaries/bananas/ailibrary/ 00:20:49 <Eddi|zuHause> files may need decompressing 00:21:14 *** supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 00:31:01 *** Chruker [~no@port113.ds1-vj.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [] 00:43:39 *** KritiK [~Maxim@93-80-133-188.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:45:58 *** Markavian [~Markavian@CPE-60-224-82-14.wxzr1.win.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:46:02 *** KouDy [~KouDy@188.75.190.58] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:51:40 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:55:46 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 01:04:45 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 01:07:56 *** Wizzleby [~wizzleby@pool-108-16-114-12.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:19:10 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 01:22:46 *** Fuco 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[martijn@wrath.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:45:18 *** TheMask96 [martijn@wrath.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 05:56:02 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B775A5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:56:18 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B75C2E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 06:04:57 *** xiong [~xiong@netblock-72-25-106-138.dslextreme.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:28:03 *** nicfer [~nicfer@190.50.9.76] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:03:35 *** ecke [~ecke@188.75.128.2] has quit [Quit: more listen, more understand, more know] 07:16:57 *** George|2 [~George@212.113.107.39] has joined #openttd 07:16:57 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:20:44 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 07:26:45 *** andythenorth [~andy@cpc9-aztw25-2-0-cust133.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 07:32:54 <andythenorth> mornings 07:34:06 <robotboy> hello 07:36:55 <Terkhen> good morning 07:46:16 * andythenorth wonders about industry placement during map generation 07:49:22 <andythenorth> specifically, is the order of industry types deterministic when built? 07:49:32 * andythenorth will post on forum 07:53:58 <Terkhen> IIRC Alberth explained how his patch works at the development forum 07:54:37 <supermop> i was justondering about that 07:54:37 *** supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #openttd [] 07:58:36 *** KouDy [~KouDy@188.75.190.58] has joined #openttd 08:01:22 <andythenorth> I guess alberth will turn up later :) 08:01:23 <andythenorth> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=51637 08:02:43 *** Devroush [~dennis@94-225-75-247.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 08:19:15 <planetmaker> good morning 08:22:22 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 08:22:46 <robotboy> gmorning planetmaker 08:37:51 <robotboy> it seems the website is back 08:38:21 <planetmaker> indeed. And hello robotboy :-) 08:38:37 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r21374 /trunk/src/engine.cpp: -Fix: Purchases lists were not invalidated when using 'resetengines' 08:38:56 <robotboy> thankyou #openttdcoop for sugesting I check 08:39:18 <robotboy> websters rss stuff worked so I thought the site must be up 08:40:00 <robotboy> topic change required or wait? 08:40:13 * Terkhen goes back to coding :) 08:40:17 *** planetmaker changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.0.5 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | English only 08:40:17 <Terkhen> but first I have to upload something 08:40:32 <planetmaker> ha :-) 08:40:59 <planetmaker> topic change required, yes :-) Thanks 08:41:25 <planetmaker> and yes, webster is the coop bot, thus independent from the openttd website. 08:41:51 <robotboy> but he get's his RSS feeds from the openttd website? 08:42:13 <planetmaker> it does. But I don't know why it issued the news right then. 08:42:49 <planetmaker> hm, it was probably when it noticed the server was online again 08:43:37 <planetmaker> I don't know the frequency with which it checks 08:44:02 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 08:44:08 <robotboy> that's what I was thinking. It might have thought a new update was online after the server came back up (treating it like a new entry for some reason) 08:44:33 <planetmaker> I guess so, yes 08:45:15 <robotboy> hm ingame content still fails though 08:46:10 <Terkhen> give the DNS some time, translator isn't working for me either 08:47:43 <Rubidium> planetmaker: probably because it got garbage the last time it got the news RSS 08:48:06 <Terkhen> translator is now back too :) 08:49:25 <planetmaker> game mode 1 is normal game? 08:50:07 <Rubidium> planetmaker: openttd.h 08:50:33 <planetmaker> thanks 08:51:33 *** Tennel [~Tennel@88.150.10.194] has joined #openttd 09:05:18 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 09:05:21 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 09:09:43 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21375 /trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp: -Codechange: rewrite the savegame compressors to behave more like filters 09:11:02 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 09:12:36 * andythenorth stares into the cargo class abyss 09:13:58 <andythenorth> really, BULK is 'misconceived' 09:16:45 * peter1138 fails at getting SpComb's pngtile to... well, do anything :s 09:29:24 * andythenorth searches for that vipers nest known as "ECS classes thread" 09:31:58 <planetmaker> andythenorth: somewhere there was recently an announcement that ECS classes are going to change 09:32:03 * andythenorth misses DaleStan: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=645232#p645232 09:32:09 <andythenorth> can't we bring him back :( 09:32:11 <andythenorth> ? 09:32:21 <andythenorth> maybe we could write a DaleBot 09:33:44 <planetmaker> hehe. He has a sharp mind and an even sharper tongue ;-) 09:33:50 <Terkhen> :) 09:34:03 <andythenorth> I liked his enforcing of standards :) 09:34:11 <planetmaker> yep, he's good at that 09:34:14 <andythenorth> and if you asked a smart question, he'd answer it 09:34:20 <andythenorth> it was like a game 09:36:21 <planetmaker> :-) a fun one 09:36:22 <peter1138> bring back? 09:38:02 <peter1138> where did he go? 09:39:11 <andythenorth> away :( 09:40:19 <planetmaker> somewhere non-TTD-world 09:40:34 <planetmaker> possibly somewhere RL :-P 09:41:03 <Terkhen> :O 09:41:18 <Terkhen> I thought it was not possible to escape 09:41:21 <robotboy> last I heard, he returned to fix DOS TTDP and dissappeared again to RL 09:43:27 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21376 /trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp: -Codechange: generalise ClearMemoryDumper 09:47:00 <SpComb> peter1138: ha ha 09:47:29 <SpComb> peter1138: note that there's like five different parts to it in the same package 09:48:25 <peter1138> yup 09:48:34 <peter1138> a horrible mix of c and python :s 09:48:54 <SpComb> that's prototype software for you 09:49:39 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1CC92.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 09:50:23 * andythenorth awaits fun: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=51638 09:50:54 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF9B1E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 09:52:33 <Terkhen> s/fun/flame/? :P 09:53:20 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21377 /trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp: -Codechange: rewrite the savegame decompressors to behave more like filters 09:53:57 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21378 /trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp: -Codechange: move the logic for reading bytes from a savegame into a class 09:54:10 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@a62-251-30-68.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 09:54:52 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21379 /trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp: -Codechange: move the actual save code into a separate function 09:54:56 * andythenorth is wondering why it is frequently requested that trams are split from RV sets? 09:55:09 <planetmaker> andythenorth: it makes *somewhat* sense 09:55:17 <andythenorth> not for set authors :( 09:55:26 <planetmaker> in the same sense that e.g. main line trains and metro trains could well be different sets 09:55:27 <andythenorth> :) 09:55:31 <planetmaker> andythenorth: why not? 09:55:44 <planetmaker> IMHO it also makes sense there. 09:55:47 <andythenorth> twice the releases, twice the number of threads, twice the grfs to maintain 09:55:54 <Terkhen> poor opengfx+ trams... always getting moved between different NewGRFs 09:55:59 <planetmaker> :-P 09:56:03 <andythenorth> twice as many download counts :D 09:56:13 <andythenorth> hmm there are positives to splitting the sets :P 09:56:26 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21380 /trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp: -Codechange: move ThreadedSave variables to a more logical place, and move an include to the right place 09:56:30 <planetmaker> Well. It allows nicer configuration of savegames. That's the main benefit. 09:56:34 <Terkhen> :) 09:56:38 <andythenorth> in what respect? 09:57:08 <planetmaker> trams are different from trucks / busses as they're somewhat their own means of transport 09:57:19 <planetmaker> even though not openttd - internally 09:57:25 <planetmaker> it's easy to perceive them as such. 09:57:35 <planetmaker> But otoh I'd not split now HEQS trams from HEQS. 09:57:50 <planetmaker> not now at least 09:57:52 <andythenorth> I'd be happy to add parameters to on/off groups of vehicles 09:57:57 <andythenorth> I'd have no problem with that idea 09:58:01 <planetmaker> Maybe that's a nice idea 09:58:28 <andythenorth> I considered it before. As the bulldozers are mostly pointless :P 09:58:34 <planetmaker> it'd satisfy nearly all needs - except configuring costs for trucks and trams separately ;-) 09:58:46 *** Tennel [~Tennel@88.150.10.194] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 09:58:48 <andythenorth> hmm 09:58:59 <andythenorth> that could be action D or cb 09:59:07 <planetmaker> eh? 09:59:14 <planetmaker> hm, yes 09:59:28 <planetmaker> though it's harder to balance it that way. MUCH 10:00:06 <andythenorth> if there were a lot of industrial trams in HEQS, I'd consider a split 10:00:12 <andythenorth> which might happen in future 10:00:31 <andythenorth> for example...if rv-wagons was available :D 10:01:01 * Terkhen should stop being lazy and finish the partial refit patch 10:01:25 <planetmaker> andythenorth: yes, that's the point. There's not too many trams yet. That's why I would not (yet) bother with a split 10:01:40 <planetmaker> when there's like 10 or so... it might be worth it. 10:01:52 <planetmaker> same goes for OpenGFX+RV. 10:02:02 <planetmaker> Three trams don't warrant its own newgrf IMHO 10:02:11 <andythenorth> ITS 10:02:28 <planetmaker> ? 10:02:33 <planetmaker> ah 10:02:34 <planetmaker> :-P 10:02:43 <Terkhen> :) 10:02:53 <planetmaker> it's ITS. Its trams itch :-P 10:04:05 <andythenorth> ITS Trams Set 10:04:09 <andythenorth> :P 10:04:34 * andythenorth wonders if this issue can be closed http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/1685 10:04:43 <andythenorth> as it seems to depend on http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4172 10:04:46 <Terkhen> I thought the I stood for Industrial 10:05:10 <andythenorth> well, maybe 10:05:20 <Prof_Frink> t'ITS. 10:06:09 <Terkhen> andythenorth: check the closing comments of the openttd task 10:08:02 * andythenorth is none the wiser at this point 10:08:43 * andythenorth leaves the ticket open 10:08:44 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21381 /trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp: -Fix (r21377,r21375): some compilers have to spoil the fun... 10:09:07 * Rubidium wonders what FS#1685 and FS#4172 have to do with eachother 10:09:41 <planetmaker> andythenorth: it can't. It needs implementation in the strings. Also in the English ones. 10:09:55 <planetmaker> It's within OpenTTD, but not yet within FIRS 10:11:34 *** mode/#openttd [+b *!*@41.234.202.42] by planetmaker 10:11:52 <andythenorth> so I need to update FIRS... 10:11:59 <planetmaker> yup 10:12:24 <Terkhen> and all the translations :/ 10:12:29 <planetmaker> yup :S 10:12:35 <andythenorth> can wait I guess 10:12:49 <planetmaker> why? ;-) 10:12:58 <planetmaker> you can achieve a first there 10:13:32 <andythenorth> ¿I don't want to make my brain understand the issue today? 10:14:39 <andythenorth> FIRS 0.6 is going to cause savegame breakage 10:14:46 <andythenorth> I said I wouldn't do that again for a while 10:14:58 <andythenorth> should I put off the breakage, or just get it done? 10:15:54 <Alberth> Rubidium: FS#1685 is a bug of the FIRS neighbours: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/1685 10:17:16 <andythenorth> hi hi Alberth 10:17:24 <Alberth> hi andy 10:17:33 <andythenorth> I have certain industry question for you 10:17:39 <andythenorth> it's in the newgrf dev forum 10:17:48 <Alberth> I already replied :) 10:18:23 <Alberth> you don't have a version number scheme where a user can see whether updating will break the savegame? 10:20:40 <Ammler> welcome back openttd.org o/ 10:23:34 <Ammler> every main version isn't compatible with other main version, so this should be clear 10:23:35 <planetmaker> moin Ammler :-) 10:23:43 <andythenorth> Alberth: thanks for reply :) 10:24:18 <andythenorth> do we have a version number scheme? 10:24:30 <andythenorth> I'm confused about grfid vs. action 14 versions 10:24:32 <Alberth> Ammler: so far, it is more: every version is not compatible with every other version :) 10:24:58 <Alberth> (which is not a problem imho) 10:27:30 <Ammler> Alberth: because there was no min_compatible_version? 10:28:34 <Alberth> that is only about making such information available to the machine, nothing more. 10:28:55 <Ammler> andythenorth: you don't change the GRFID anymore, if the newgrf gets incompatible, you simply change min_compatible_version to the current rev 10:29:25 <andythenorth> ok, I should update tickets for that 10:30:05 <Ammler> you can do that while dev... 10:34:20 <andythenorth> hmm, this remains an issue I don't know how to fix: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/1564 10:39:54 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I guess a huge part of that was already fixed by Alberth with the industry placement / minimum number rework 10:40:09 <planetmaker> it would just need testing again, I think 10:40:11 <andythenorth> remains an issue for claypit and quarry 10:40:16 <andythenorth> due to size and need for flat land 10:40:32 <andythenorth> an error of thinking by me :P 10:40:57 <planetmaker> provide smaller versions of both ;-) 10:41:01 <planetmaker> or sloped :-P 10:41:19 <planetmaker> maybe the smaller versions have lower output (initially) 10:41:28 <andythenorth> dredging site will address 2 out of 3 problems 10:42:11 <Alberth> provide ability of industry to explain what tile layout it needs so we can do terra-forming at site :) 10:42:42 <andythenorth> that would mean extending newgrf spec quite somewhat 10:42:43 <andythenorth> ? 10:43:18 <andythenorth> a cb, which checks layout number 10:43:29 <andythenorth> and returns a bit-stuffed value for each tile, giving slope data 10:43:54 <Alberth> just a simple array of layouts would do, wouldn't it? 10:44:05 <andythenorth> needs to encode tile slope info? 10:44:38 <Alberth> now the newgrf needs to check tile slopes itself, right? 10:44:54 <andythenorth> yes 10:45:02 <andythenorth> which is putting me right off drawing a quarry 10:45:35 <Alberth> does that make sense? 10:46:13 <Alberth> I know it is nicely generic and stuff, but isn't it way too complicated for a newgrf to do? 10:47:49 <Terkhen> it might make more sense to attach that info to each layout and let OpenTTD take care of it 10:49:45 <andythenorth> indeed 10:50:07 <andythenorth> if I do draw a quarry, I'm going to have to check slopes in great detail with cb22... 10:50:11 *** Tennel [~Tennel@farafin-gate.cs.uni-magdeburg.de] has joined #openttd 10:50:19 <andythenorth> which is mostly going to return "don't build here" 10:50:20 <andythenorth> :P 10:54:48 *** fjb is now known as Guest1625 10:54:49 *** fjb [~frank@p5DDFE548.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 10:54:54 *** Tennel [~Tennel@farafin-gate.cs.uni-magdeburg.de] has quit [] 10:56:39 *** Tennel [~Tennel@farafin-gate.cs.uni-magdeburg.de] has joined #openttd 11:01:33 <Alberth> if you up a level, and devise a format and write a generator that generates nfo, you're done for all industries much faster :p 11:01:40 *** Guest1625 [~frank@p5DDFDBFD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:06:13 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f7d28.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 11:06:36 <frosch123> \o/ DorpsGek 11:13:09 *** Progman_ [~progman@p57A19AB1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 11:15:57 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC3735.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 11:16:36 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1CC92.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:16:41 *** Progman_ is now known as Progman 11:19:28 <andythenorth> Alberth: sounds like nml :P 11:19:46 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@a62-251-30-68.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:20:06 <Alberth> sounds like a pattern that does not belong in nfo :) 11:28:32 * andythenorth is open to solutions :) 11:29:54 * Alberth goes into andy, and buys a solution 11:30:46 <andythenorth> I have considered a totally modular quarry, but I'd need to draw about 81 different tile sprites for it 11:32:16 <Alberth> drawing sprites is the most difficult part? 11:33:26 <Alberth> (I am quite sure that a layout checking generator can be written, I just don't have a clue what its input is, and how to decide what to generate) 11:34:35 <Alberth> but changing the newgrf spec to have such information instead would be better imho. 11:34:47 <Alberth> do we also need that for newgrf airports? 11:38:01 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e0bbfb2.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:38:17 <planetmaker> maybe 11:41:34 *** ar3k [~ident@87-239-75-101.internetia.net.pl] has joined #openttd 11:42:00 *** ar3kaw [~ident@87-239-75-101.internetia.net.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:43:24 <andythenorth> drawing sprites for many different slope configurations is difficult 12:03:36 <Alberth> which you solve by making a lot of layouts? 12:04:39 <frosch123> how can that be solved in newgrf specs? :o every tile is different 12:05:54 <frosch123> i guess you rather need some preprocessor / nml stuff to generate the layouts for the cases you need 12:05:56 <Alberth> (11:42:58) Alberth: provide ability of industry to explain what tile layout it needs so we (Edit: we = OpenTTD) can do terra-forming at site :) 12:06:18 <frosch123> oh, terraforming :) 12:06:22 <frosch123> i thought drawing 12:08:13 <frosch123> in that case: airports need to display a preview shape including slopes 12:08:13 <Alberth> in particular, adding that information to a layout 12:08:37 <frosch123> the old richk branch tried that, though failed quite 12:09:44 <frosch123> i guess every tile in the layout would need some flags for a certain slope, or for a range of slopes 12:10:11 <frosch123> like: at least SLOPE_N, at max SLOPE_ENW 12:10:18 <Alberth> just a map of relative heights of other grid points? 12:10:35 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.8.200.216] has joined #openttd 12:10:56 <frosch123> Alberth: that's what richk did, but it fails as you need (n+1)x(n+1) points for n x n tiles 12:11:05 <frosch123> also it makes the slope totally fixed 12:11:50 <frosch123> while is is quite likely that you only want fixed slopes in some parts of the layout, while other parts do not matter 12:12:08 <frosch123> (like flat slope for some buildings, but not inbetween the buildings) 12:12:20 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-5d821fa4.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 12:12:21 <Alberth> ie you want some height interval 12:12:39 <frosch123> yes, but i guess slope works better than height 12:13:06 <Alberth> you may be right 12:15:06 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has joined #openttd 12:18:10 <Alberth> slopes seem much more complicated to understand, but maybe it is just because of /me not accustomed to thinking in slopes 12:19:35 *** George|2 is now known as George 12:21:32 <frosch123> Alberth: basically you set the relative height of the corners of every tile. (every corner gets a range 0-2, 0-1, 1-2, 0-0, 1-1, 2-2) 12:22:01 <frosch123> if you have dependencies accross multiple tiles you have to fix some corners in the middle though 12:22:22 <frosch123> (those corners which are not visible anyway after construction) 12:22:29 <Alberth> yeah, what worries me is when you move further than a single tile. 12:23:31 <frosch123> well, firs and ecs have a lot of testcases for interesting slope requirements 12:23:44 <frosch123> ecs with the weird castles and stuff, firs with disjoint buildings 12:24:03 <frosch123> so, i guess a system which can handle those, should be fine :) 12:25:45 *** plan9 [~stian@arachnotron.sletner.com] has joined #openttd 12:25:54 *** Brianetta [~brian@212.183.140.57] has joined #openttd 12:35:10 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B75C2E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:35:35 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B75C2E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 12:35:50 *** KritiK [~Maxim@89-178-6-178.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 12:45:00 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-179-222.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:47:07 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-32-187.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 12:47:10 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 13:08:27 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21382 /trunk/src/saveload/afterload.cpp: -Fix (r21153) [FS#4290]: the road vehicle's frame wasn't properly set upon savegame conversion *if* the vehicle would be hidden, but isn't going to be hidden anymore after the conversion 13:13:57 *** Chillosophy [~Chillosop@ip91350749.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #openttd 13:27:51 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:b1f8:383d:8b5b:9194] has joined #openttd 13:27:54 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 13:35:01 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbc08a3.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 13:35:11 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f7d28.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:37:30 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@a62-251-30-68.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 13:41:55 *** Brianetta [~brian@212.183.140.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:43:30 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbc08a3.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:49:13 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC3735.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 13:50:53 *** Brianetta [~brian@212.183.140.29] has joined #openttd 13:54:12 *** X-2 [~X-2@5ED66CC3.cm-7-7b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:58:01 <Eddi|zuHause> bah... cold! 13:59:11 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-32-187.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:59:16 *** Chruker [~no@port113.ds1-vj.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #openttd 14:01:09 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-114-199.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 14:01:12 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 14:01:46 *** robotboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:06:22 *** Tennel [~Tennel@farafin-gate.cs.uni-magdeburg.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 14:17:38 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f7d28.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 14:18:56 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B75C2E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:19:27 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B75C2E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 14:32:33 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF9B1E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:46:32 *** glevans2 [~glevans2@adsl-99-129-159-76.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Don't Panic!] 14:47:54 *** yorick [yorick@hurf.minds.durf.alike.shellium.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:48:45 * andythenorth returns with questions about slope terraforming 14:48:55 *** KouDy [~KouDy@188.75.190.58] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:48:57 <andythenorth> like...is it a viable project? 14:50:10 *** nicfer [~nicfer@190.50.57.22] has joined #openttd 14:50:13 *** glevans2 [~glevans2@adsl-99-129-159-76.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #openttd 14:51:37 * planetmaker likes to ask andythenorth about HEQS 1.0.0... ;-) 14:52:00 <frosch123> the spec is likely the hardest :) 14:52:00 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@82.147.59.59] has joined #openttd 14:52:49 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I think the costs work....I need to check again 14:52:55 <andythenorth> the default seems to be 1/512? 14:52:59 <planetmaker> nope 14:53:01 <andythenorth> can the default be 'default' 14:53:05 <planetmaker> yes 14:53:11 <andythenorth> hmm 14:53:13 <andythenorth> my bad 14:53:17 <planetmaker> did you check today? 14:53:20 <andythenorth> yes 14:53:31 <planetmaker> don't use a game where it is already added 14:53:36 <andythenorth> yes 14:53:37 <planetmaker> start a new one and add it anew 14:53:41 <andythenorth> I figure now :) 14:53:51 <planetmaker> e.g. don't use an old newgrf list 14:53:58 <andythenorth> I'll test and release later :) 14:54:16 <andythenorth> frosch123: how would it terraform? 14:54:17 <planetmaker> dunno. Prices are now somthing between 20k and 100k. looks like a lot 14:54:41 *** Brianetta [~brian@212.183.140.29] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 14:54:43 <andythenorth> start at the N tile and work out? 14:55:16 *** KouDy [~KouDy@188.75.190.58] has joined #openttd 14:55:20 <frosch123> andythenorth: it starts at the current random location, then compares the current slope to the required one, bails out if too many differences, and then terraforms 14:55:39 <frosch123> current code already terraforms to level land if the industry is build on flat land 14:56:05 <andythenorth> so it it was something like an even slope, not too hard? 14:56:12 <andythenorth> but a complicated shape....likely to fail? 14:56:22 <frosch123> the harder part is: the spec must provide the information for the slope to terraform, some preview for the player and the ais 14:56:53 <frosch123> andythenorth: hmm, why should the slope make a difference? 14:56:55 <andythenorth> does the spec need to encode only relative slopes, or relative slopes + relative heights 14:57:14 <andythenorth> (slope probably makes no difference) 14:57:37 <frosch123> i prefer slopes 14:58:12 <andythenorth> so there's already some bit-stuffing scheme for slope data....that could be reused? 14:58:43 <andythenorth> e.g. industry var 60 14:59:16 <frosch123> maybe, i am not sure whether it is enough to provide a fixed slope 14:59:32 <frosch123> or whether there should be a range of allowed slope 15:00:14 <andythenorth> we'd allow it to check other crap like water tile etc when terraforming? 15:00:21 <andythenorth> or is that already handled by terraforming code? 15:00:27 <andythenorth> I'm not sure what my question is :P 15:02:36 <frosch123> i rather thought about leaving cb 28 and 2f as is, and maybe return some slope suggestion in cb 2f or a new similar callback 15:03:08 *** X-2 [~X-2@5ED662EB.cm-7-7b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 15:03:16 <frosch123> i see definitely a requirement for defining fixed slopes for some tiles, but no restrictions for other tiles of the same layout 15:03:25 <frosch123> i am not sure about stuff inbetween 15:03:29 <andythenorth> could the existing layout definitions have additional bytes? 15:03:33 <andythenorth> in action 15:03:34 <andythenorth> 0 15:03:56 <frosch123> like: all slopes except steep, all slopes as long as north corner is high... 15:04:15 <frosch123> andythenorth: you cannot extent a property, you can only add a new property 15:04:26 <andythenorth> bleargh :) 15:04:42 <andythenorth> already editing layouts means changes in two places 15:04:57 <andythenorth> adding a third is not cricket :P 15:05:16 <frosch123> hmm, otoh the layout property has some space for extentions 15:05:44 <frosch123> like "0xFD,W -> slope restriction for following tile definition" or so 15:06:08 <andythenorth> yay :) 15:08:16 <andythenorth> so....there are four tile corners? 15:08:26 <andythenorth> and the slope is define by their position relative to each other? 15:08:37 <andythenorth> higher / lower / 2x higher / 2x lower 15:08:51 <frosch123> the slope is defined by the height of ther corners relative to the lowest corner 15:08:57 <andythenorth> ok 15:09:25 * andythenorth looks for problems with this 15:09:31 <andythenorth> doesn't see any so far :o 15:09:51 <andythenorth> what am I missing? 15:09:51 <frosch123> andythenorth: fixed slope is easy, but i doubt it is sufficient :p 15:10:09 <andythenorth> hmm 15:10:20 * andythenorth tries to model a slope in head 15:10:28 <andythenorth> is it enough to know the slope of each tile? 15:10:39 <andythenorth> do we need to know slope of neighbouring tile? 15:10:46 <andythenorth> or does newgrf author just work that out 15:10:52 <andythenorth> there are only so many valid combinations 15:11:08 <frosch123> andythenorth: imagine you have a industry with two buildings 15:11:19 <andythenorth> and a gap between... 15:11:37 <frosch123> each building shall be on leveled foundations, so the max height of the tiles within each building must be the same 15:11:52 <frosch123> on the roadside of the building no slopes are allowed 15:12:04 <andythenorth> it's a head-scratching problem :o 15:12:05 <frosch123> the relative height difference of the buildings does not matter 15:12:40 <andythenorth> it might if there's some piece of graphic joining them 15:12:44 <andythenorth> like in FIRS stockyard 15:12:46 <frosch123> if the height difference between the buildings matters one might put a 0xFF (empty tile) between them to restrict the slope there 15:12:55 <andythenorth> yup 15:14:38 <frosch123> or take a forest: a house with flat slope, some trees with any slope, and some roads between the trees with flat slope or inclined slope along the road direction 15:15:11 <andythenorth> specifying rules for that makes my brain ache :P 15:15:24 <andythenorth> but it can't be much harder than using cb2f and var 60? 15:15:32 <andythenorth> for newgrf author? 15:15:41 <andythenorth> using cb2f and var60 makes my brain ache :P 15:15:54 <frosch123> or a vine yard: most tiles slope, but not necessarily all, but defintely all slopes in the same direction :p 15:16:15 <andythenorth> partial terraforming seems overkill 15:16:33 <andythenorth> either newgrf author specifies exact slope requirement, or they don't make things requiring terraforming 15:17:25 <frosch123> so: exact slope, or no restriction (except maybe yes/no from cb 2f) 15:17:51 <andythenorth> exact slope if terraforming 15:18:05 <frosch123> otoh, cb 2f would only get the slope before terraforming, so quite useless 15:18:21 <andythenorth> hmm 15:18:23 <andythenorth> yes 15:18:24 <frosch123> andythenorth: but terraforming should be defined on a per tile basis 15:18:30 <frosch123> not all or nothing 15:21:29 <andythenorth> ho 15:21:33 <andythenorth> this seems difficult :) 15:22:22 <frosch123> maybe just fixed slope per tile, a special value for "all non-steep slopes" and "any slope" in case nothing is defined for the tile 15:24:09 <andythenorth> what does the terraforming routine do with 'any slope'? 15:26:20 <frosch123> nothing? 15:26:42 <frosch123> except implied by neighboured tiles 15:26:53 <andythenorth> ok 15:27:45 <andythenorth> what could possibly go wrong? :P 15:31:33 <andythenorth> planetmaker: it looks like the default costs are 4x too high 15:31:42 <andythenorth> which, based on code, I don't understand :o 15:31:49 <andythenorth> I said use 0A, you've used 0A 15:32:23 <frosch123> different difficulty settings? 15:32:36 <andythenorth> mine haven't changed ;) 15:33:10 <planetmaker> not that I know 15:34:21 <planetmaker> let's see 15:35:09 <andythenorth> planetmaker: with running costs low, Mt. Mckinley truck costs £7875, and run cost is £862 15:35:19 <andythenorth> in 0.9.6 15:35:50 <andythenorth> in tip, it's £31500 cost 15:36:00 <andythenorth> so I guess multiplier is just 4x too high 15:36:12 <andythenorth> I don't understand all of cost-setting code though 15:38:35 <planetmaker> it's pretty dump and simple actually: set the parameters to 09 if not defined 15:38:38 <planetmaker> then add 1 15:38:42 <planetmaker> then write them 15:41:11 <planetmaker> hm, how do you get 31500? I get 47250GBP? 15:41:29 <Rubidium> difficulty settings 15:41:55 <planetmaker> I set it to low as andy said 15:42:36 <andythenorth> curioser and curioser 15:42:44 * andythenorth wonders if ottd has cached values 15:42:45 <planetmaker> hm. yes. 15:42:48 <planetmaker> custom 15:42:52 <planetmaker> and you have easy 15:43:03 <planetmaker> so custom 'low' is higher than easy 15:43:07 <andythenorth> mine's on custom 15:43:09 <planetmaker> which it shouldn't 15:43:12 <planetmaker> hu? 15:43:57 <andythenorth> planetmaker: something odd 15:44:09 <planetmaker> hm... 15:44:12 <andythenorth> I have adjusted all 6 places values are set in heqs_header.pnfo 15:44:18 <andythenorth> they haven't changed in game :P 15:44:27 <andythenorth> something is screwy my end 15:44:39 <planetmaker> hm, not necessarily 15:45:01 <planetmaker> yes. heqs_header.pnfo doesn't define it... 15:45:07 <planetmaker> it's in initialization.pnfo 15:45:36 <andythenorth> so it's also in heqs_header.pnfo... 15:45:41 <planetmaker> oh... that's where it is fishy then :-P 15:45:41 <andythenorth> is that file deprecated? 15:45:58 <andythenorth> it appears to be 15:45:58 <planetmaker> not quite. But it should not define costs 15:46:14 <andythenorth> it's not included by heqs.pnfo 15:46:38 <planetmaker> right. Then I forgot to delete it :-) 15:46:57 <andythenorth> I'll remove it 15:49:39 <andythenorth> bah 15:49:55 <planetmaker> hm? 15:50:15 <andythenorth> adding \d0 produces £3937 cost 15:50:23 <andythenorth> adding \d1 produces the £31k cost 15:50:36 <andythenorth> seems like it's raising by 10x 15:50:39 <andythenorth> :o 15:51:10 <planetmaker> confiremed 15:51:15 <andythenorth> weird weird 15:51:23 <planetmaker> -e 15:53:23 <planetmaker> http://pastebin.com/L3HRzs2c <-- maybe some other eyes see more. That's what we have in order to define vehicle costs 15:53:38 <andythenorth> what are the action 6 doing? 15:54:02 <planetmaker> when we change lines 114 and 115 to \d0 instead of \d1 the costs seem to be cut by 8 15:54:29 <planetmaker> andythenorth: they modify the following. I.e. writing the actual desired values to the sprite which modifies the costs 15:59:27 <planetmaker> hm... I damn don't see where it goes wrong 16:00:24 <frosch123> planetmaker: a grf is loaded in multiple stages 16:00:30 <frosch123> so you increment is executed multiple times 16:01:03 <planetmaker> uhm... so it applies _each_ time?! 16:01:23 <planetmaker> sounds wrong 16:01:24 <frosch123> yes, there is a non-big non-red warning in the newgrf wiki :p 16:01:38 <planetmaker> hm... 16:02:00 <frosch123> planetmaker: solution, do not increment a register, but copy it to another one while adding 1 16:02:07 <Hirundo> modifying user-set parameters is basically a no-go 16:02:21 <planetmaker> well. That doesn't change the issue, Hirundo 16:02:31 <planetmaker> I initially had it that way 16:02:48 <planetmaker> then cleaned up, cut away 15 lines and modify the intial parameters 16:03:09 <planetmaker> frosch123: got the link for that? 16:04:00 <Hirundo> "Note that parameters are never reset after the game has started, therefore you must not modify newgrf(w).cfg parameters with any kind of irreversible operation. It is valid to, for example, add a value to a parameter only if the same value is later subtracted, to keep the parameter the same across loading or starting several games." 16:04:05 *** MrSieb [~01Mr@chello062178128065.5.13.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:04:16 <frosch123> just wanted to quote that :) 16:04:19 <Hirundo> http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=ActionD 16:05:43 <frosch123> http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Action6 <- also read the essay next to param-size 16:07:09 * Hirundo feels the procedure described there is unnecessarily complicated 16:07:38 <frosch123> it likely uses a minimal amount of registers or so :p 16:09:59 <planetmaker> hm... helau to the intracacies. Thanks frosch123 and Hirundo. I guess I'll have another go and I'll give another toast on NML 16:12:08 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbc08a3.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 16:17:23 *** glevans2 [~glevans2@adsl-99-129-159-76.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:20:28 <andythenorth> peter1138: any more perlin porn? 16:26:02 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@89.246.189.9] has joined #openttd 16:27:57 *** glevans2 [~glevans2@99.129.159.76] has joined #openttd 16:41:11 *** glevans2 [~glevans2@99.129.159.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:42:10 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19AB1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:49:45 *** glevans2 [~glevans2@99.129.159.46] has joined #openttd 16:57:36 *** LordAro [56841a4e@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 17:15:33 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC3735.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 17:16:11 *** snowdragon is now known as welshdragon 17:20:24 *** xiong [~xiong@netblock-72-25-106-202.dslextreme.com] has joined #openttd 17:28:44 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF9B1E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 18:00:29 *** LordAro [56841a4e@ircip3.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 18:02:50 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B6A8.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 18:08:31 *** KritiK_ [~Maxim@95-28-108-78.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 18:10:16 *** staaN [~Miranda@p4FD83791.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 18:10:38 *** KritiK [~Maxim@89-178-6-178.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:10:42 *** KritiK_ is now known as KritiK 18:10:47 *** LordAro [56841a4e@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 18:11:44 *** andythenorth [~andy@cpc9-aztw25-2-0-cust133.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 18:14:51 *** andythenorth [~andy@cpc9-aztw25-2-0-cust133.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 18:16:15 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 18:19:00 *** nicfer [~nicfer@190.50.57.22] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:21:28 * andythenorth hmms 18:21:38 <andythenorth> so classes have to be cargo related, not vehicle related 18:21:41 <andythenorth> fair enough 18:21:50 <andythenorth> but vehicle set authors don't see it that way 18:22:20 <andythenorth> vehicle set authors think classes are there to help them provide correct vehicles 18:22:41 <planetmaker> they do. When they're cargo-related 18:23:33 <planetmaker> that doesn't make your argument invalid. Though I don't quite follow to see the need for such class 18:23:41 <planetmaker> Rather then maybe a powder class 18:23:42 <andythenorth> maybe I can combine existing classes somehow 18:27:02 <planetmaker> well. There's no means to find a suitable vehicle type for these small-grain stuff which is "blown" - like grain, fertilizer 18:27:39 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19AB1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 18:27:54 <b_jonas> isn't fertilizer transported in plastic bags? 18:28:24 <planetmaker> yeah. For those people who buy it in order to fertilize 2m^2 of lawn or two pot plants 18:28:42 <b_jonas> 20 kg plastic bags? 18:29:16 <planetmaker> that's for those with 20m^2 18:29:25 <planetmaker> farmers by it by the wagon loads 18:29:27 <b_jonas> okay 18:29:32 <planetmaker> *buy 18:31:08 <andythenorth> maybe I can define cargo classes for things like scrap as e.g. piece goods && bulk, 18:31:15 <andythenorth> then maybe persuade all vehicle set authors to use property 29 or equivalent appropriately 18:31:17 <b_jonas> can an industry produce different outputs depending on which input cargo it gets? 18:31:34 <andythenorth> seems to me the burden falls on me to go persuade all vehicle set authros 18:31:41 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I don't consider that necessary... 18:31:44 <andythenorth> meanwhile I get the bug reports 18:31:49 <andythenorth> or feature requests 18:31:51 <planetmaker> and honestly: Please don't 18:32:08 <planetmaker> you mess up all existing tuning Terkhen and I did in that respect 18:32:16 <andythenorth> seems to me classes are a broken concept :P 18:32:20 <andythenorth> due to who controls them 18:32:22 <planetmaker> They aren't. 18:32:31 <planetmaker> They are just not a concept to change once the cargo is defined 18:32:51 <planetmaker> And then it's not *that* important 18:33:13 <planetmaker> As most cargos can be considered to be part of more than one. Like you said, scrap metal 18:34:03 <andythenorth> well scrap metal is currently piece goods, and that's the slightly broken solution I've stuck with 18:34:38 <andythenorth> as it's the best of bad options 18:34:48 <andythenorth> I'm going to change various other cargos to suit 18:36:15 <planetmaker> hm? 18:36:46 <planetmaker> re-defining all cargo classes again?! 18:37:27 <andythenorth> I kind of need to 18:37:32 <andythenorth> not all 18:37:36 <andythenorth> but a few 18:37:43 <andythenorth> for various reasons 18:37:44 <planetmaker> why do you "need to"? 18:37:57 <b_jonas> you mean add more cargo flags but also keep the old ones? 18:37:59 <andythenorth> bad vehicle support 18:38:08 <planetmaker> ... 18:38:36 <andythenorth> fibre crops don't travel by hopper 18:38:37 <planetmaker> well. Thank you then :-( 18:38:47 <b_jonas> I mean, add more cargo flags, keep the old ones, but possibly mark some of the old flags as obsolate? 18:38:47 <andythenorth> wool is being changed by mb 18:38:52 <andythenorth> goods is not compliant with spec 18:39:24 <andythenorth> sorry :( 18:39:24 <planetmaker> I don't appreciate his decreed changes either 18:39:50 <andythenorth> sugar cane shouldn't travel by hopper 18:39:55 <andythenorth> so two from me, two from mb 18:40:01 <planetmaker> I honestly don't feel like unwrapping the refit lists which I especially spent on FIRS support most of the time again 18:40:07 <planetmaker> Especially without a real need 18:40:22 <planetmaker> why shouldn't it? 18:40:30 <planetmaker> how do you think it'd be transported? 18:40:38 <andythenorth> sugar cane? 18:40:46 <andythenorth> travels by cane wagon (don't exist), or by gondola 18:41:11 <planetmaker> so what's the difference between those and bulk? 18:41:17 <planetmaker> honestly... don't 18:41:46 <planetmaker> if you keep changing especially cargos like this - you'll _never_ have vehicle support 18:42:04 <planetmaker> and _always_ bad cases 18:42:15 <planetmaker> as people then _never_ can fix their refit masks 18:42:34 <planetmaker> but do what you must 18:42:53 <planetmaker> but rotating things around is not helpful 18:42:54 <andythenorth> I could be talked out of some of it 18:43:06 <andythenorth> what about when we made mistakes with defining classes? 18:43:07 <b_jonas> but you don't have to change anything, you only have to _add_ new flags 18:43:15 <andythenorth> and when I know some authors won't change for FIRS 18:43:16 <planetmaker> Well. I spent days to get things right with FIRS. Guess my POV 18:43:29 <andythenorth> indeed :| 18:43:30 <planetmaker> and to get it right for all other sets, too 18:43:35 <b_jonas> perhaps each flag should be three-state: yes, know, cargo module doesn't tell 18:44:02 * andythenorth should experiment with more sets to see what actual case is 18:44:10 <b_jonas> and then the vehicle modules could decide intelligently, using the more specific or better flags if they're defined, using the older but more supported flags if they're not 18:44:11 <planetmaker> don't become a mb-like "I change these things just because it's good" 18:44:29 <andythenorth> b_jonas: that's what ECS does 18:44:58 <b_jonas> sure, even then adding too many different flags could be wrong because then the cargo authors won't know what to define 18:44:58 <andythenorth> bleargh 18:45:22 <andythenorth> planetmaker: you used explicit cargo checks, or just classes? 18:45:25 <planetmaker> "... and because my favourite set then does need no single change" 18:45:31 <planetmaker> both, of course 18:45:37 <b_jonas> but you can have quite a few flags before that, because defining new industry sets _is_ supposed to be more difficult than defining new vehicles 18:45:40 <planetmaker> it's a delicate balance 18:45:44 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B6A8.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:45:47 <planetmaker> which unravels, if things change 18:45:50 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: translators * r21383 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files): (log message trimmed) 18:45:50 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 18:45:50 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: belarusian - 7 changes by KorneySan 18:45:50 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: czech - 1 changes by marek995 18:45:50 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by norbert79 18:45:51 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: russian - 6 changes by KorneySan 18:45:51 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: slovak - 1 changes by marek995 18:46:15 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I believe 4 cargos have changes indicated currently 18:46:26 <andythenorth> I could look what impact that would have on your set? 18:46:38 <b_jonas> maybe there could also be general derivation rules (which are in neither the industry set nor the vehicle sets) that guess some flags from some other flags 18:47:07 <planetmaker> andythenorth: but then you need to check for changes with ALL climates, PBI, ECS (all vectors) and FIRS 18:47:22 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I could also just belay the issue by bouncing the tickets to a later release :P 18:47:26 <andythenorth> but somehow that seems worse 18:47:30 <andythenorth> or I could reject them 18:47:43 <planetmaker> that's what I argue for. Good is fine. That exists. 18:47:49 <b_jonas> also, I for one would more like to have more choices of better vehicle sets than more choices of alternate industry sets 18:47:51 <planetmaker> But the other cargos... 18:48:23 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21384 /trunk/src/lang/slovak.txt: -Fix: failure of WT3 to properly validate some string... 18:48:26 <Alberth> b_jonas: so make a better vehicle set? 18:48:53 <b_jonas> I don't think I will 18:49:54 <andythenorth> planetmaker: so I'm left canvassing vehicle set authors for FIRS specific support, because *I* released set with classes defined wrong :o 18:49:59 <andythenorth> ho hum 18:50:06 <andythenorth> there are bigger problems in the world 18:50:13 <andythenorth> but obsession is what makes our work good :) 18:51:06 <planetmaker> how are the classes 'wrong'? 18:51:57 <planetmaker> what is right? The one-and-only interpretation, the one who may just change things without discussion and expect that all people will appreciate? 18:52:16 <planetmaker> (while all others are of course don't have that right) 18:52:34 *** Vadtec_ [~Vadtec@2001:470:b868:8455::23] has joined #openttd 18:53:17 <planetmaker> (I don't mean you, here ;-) ) 18:53:39 <planetmaker> but let's see, what is your suggestion to change? Goods: piece -> express. What else? 18:53:56 <planetmaker> that's unproblematic, as other sets use the express definition already. 18:54:04 <planetmaker> also default cargos 18:54:40 *** Vadtec [~Vadtec@2001:470:b868:8455::1337] has quit [Quit: Vadtec was here...] 18:54:40 *** Vadtec_ is now known as Vadtec 18:54:42 <planetmaker> scrap metal... is not defined anywhere else. I'd not change that. 18:55:05 <planetmaker> defining it as piece goods is ok. If you think of compressed vehicles 18:55:09 <b_jonas> how are goods express? even mobile phones don't get obsolate in half a year. 18:55:22 <planetmaker> b_jonas: ask Chris Sawyer 18:55:33 <b_jonas> :) 18:55:40 <b_jonas> yes, the other one I don't get is rubber 18:55:49 <b_jonas> maybe it gets hard or something 18:56:51 <planetmaker> hm, I guess CS has nothing to do with it. Ask the inventors of that spec. 18:57:17 <b_jonas> it's CS who defined which cargo has its price fall how fast in the original sets 19:04:05 <Terkhen> hello 19:05:06 <planetmaker> uhm, andythenorth are all those supplies really (already) express goods? 19:05:55 <planetmaker> hi Terkhen 19:06:34 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.8.200.216] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:07:29 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.8.200.216] has joined #openttd 19:13:31 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbc08a3.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:16:15 <planetmaker> andythenorth: and for the FIRS-specific cargos special support is anyway needed, if it's not supposed to look boring 19:19:20 <Terkhen> hmm... changing the refit scheme again would be quite boring :P 19:22:23 *** Vadtec [~Vadtec@2001:470:b868:8455::23] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:28:02 *** Vadtec [~Vadtec@i.am.vadtec.net] has joined #openttd 19:39:36 <andythenorth> planetmaker: yes, supplies are already express goods 19:39:49 <andythenorth> it was the only way to get sane AV8 support - Pikka was fairly insisteny 19:39:55 <andythenorth> insistent /s 19:40:08 <planetmaker> aha 19:40:13 <andythenorth> scrap metal is already piece goods 19:40:30 <planetmaker> nothing wrong with that 19:40:41 <planetmaker> but no need to change 19:40:44 <planetmaker> either 19:40:48 <andythenorth> it won't change 19:41:11 <andythenorth> plant fibres is 'bulk piece' 19:41:20 <andythenorth> and should be just piece, but....whatever 19:41:31 <planetmaker> uhm... why? 19:41:42 <andythenorth> because it shouldn't travel by coal / ore hopper 19:41:43 <planetmaker> straw certainly is not only piece goods. 19:41:50 <planetmaker> uhm, no? 19:42:27 <Terkhen> not even covered? 19:42:27 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@82.147.59.59] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:42:29 *** Keyboard_Warrior [~holyduck@82.147.59.59] has joined #openttd 19:42:45 <planetmaker> I think it can well be bulk 19:46:45 <planetmaker> or you must much more urgently make the distinction between corn and coal. They also go not into the same wagon 19:46:50 <planetmaker> They're refit after all 19:47:15 * andythenorth experiments with other vehicle sets 19:47:34 <Ammler> http://us.binaries.openttd.org/binaries/index.html <-- orudge, the link opens in the frame, is that intended? 19:49:51 <orudge> Ammler: the content has nothing to do with me, ask Rubidium or TrueBrain or someone ;) 19:49:58 * andythenorth can't draw any conclusion from testing with other vehicle sets 19:50:12 <andythenorth> I have HEQS problems, but I can fix those 19:50:17 <andythenorth> it's mostly Pikka sets 19:50:20 <Ammler> oh, thought that mirror.html is from the mirror :-) 19:50:26 <andythenorth> I don't pay much attention to Canset 1.0 or US Set 19:50:36 <orudge> Oh 19:50:38 <orudge> right 19:50:39 <orudge> that bit, yes 19:50:43 <orudge> I can likely fix that 19:50:53 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbc08a3.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 19:51:36 <Rubidium> orudge: I fear that the mirror script will overwrite your changes 19:51:40 <orudge> Ah 19:52:33 <orudge> well, in that case, if you could add 19:52:35 <orudge> target="_top" 19:52:43 <orudge> to the <a> tag, that would be useful :) 19:52:50 <orudge> I've done so on my server 19:54:05 <Rubidium> oh, the rsync script doesn't push already existing mirror.htmls :) 19:54:45 <planetmaker> http://www.tis-gdv.de/tis_e/ware/inhaltx.htm#12 <-- hm, very good site it seems on how cargo is shipped 19:55:35 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:55:38 *** ogre [~ogre@par69-2-82-224-40-212.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #openttd 19:56:18 <andythenorth> planetmaker: :D 19:56:24 <andythenorth> endless new cargos to add to FIRS 19:56:38 <andythenorth> why don't we have coffee in FIRS? :P 19:56:43 <andythenorth> or olives? 19:56:58 <planetmaker> though they don't have all types of cargos... 19:57:05 <andythenorth> herring oil? 19:57:12 <andythenorth> definitely a slot free in FIRS for that 19:57:25 <andythenorth> seal oil might cause some problems with animal lovers 19:58:00 <andythenorth> ooh 19:58:05 <andythenorth> roofing felt 19:58:12 <planetmaker> nah. If we ignore PC, we should add whale meat :-) 19:58:12 <andythenorth> => building materials 19:58:25 <andythenorth> roofing felt is what, paper, tar, stone chips? 19:58:26 <planetmaker> or whales -> food + oil 19:58:43 <planetmaker> + fibres probably, too etc pp ;-) 19:58:51 <andythenorth> carpets :o 19:58:57 <andythenorth> major cargo carpets 19:59:05 <andythenorth> what a fun site :D 19:59:12 <andythenorth> 'spices' 19:59:37 <Rubidium> only from far away, by boats for loads of money! 20:00:05 * andythenorth wonders meanwhile about possibility of persuading pikka to update his sets for FIRS 20:00:11 <andythenorth> not bloody likely is my guess 20:01:32 <planetmaker> why do you consider that unlikely? 20:05:12 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 20:07:46 <andythenorth> because Pikka has indicated he's not interested in that? 20:07:54 <andythenorth> his view is 'use classes correctly' 20:08:45 <planetmaker> right 20:11:01 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC3735.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:11:23 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC4921.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 20:11:28 <andythenorth> planetmaker: scrap metal won't affect you 20:11:31 <andythenorth> what about wool? 20:11:34 <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/1882 20:11:54 <andythenorth> adds 'covered sheltered' 20:12:27 <planetmaker> I don't mind that, I guess 20:12:38 <planetmaker> I don't care about that class so far 20:12:47 <andythenorth> I don't understand whether classes AND or XOR or whatever 20:12:47 <planetmaker> and ignore it 20:13:28 <planetmaker> A cargo can have more than one, it's and there. 20:13:56 <planetmaker> But a vehicle uses (pos. classes) and NOT (neg. classes) XOR (explicit cargos) 20:14:12 <andythenorth> that's how I do it in FIRS 20:14:20 <andythenorth> but it's a while since I set it up so I forget 20:14:35 <Terkhen> yes, it's kind of confusing :) 20:14:36 <andythenorth> FIRS / HEQS /s 20:14:46 <andythenorth> someone suggested a better way 20:14:50 <planetmaker> IIRC Terkhen and I don't yet make use of covered anywhere, neither negative nor positive, so it does us no harm 20:14:55 <andythenorth> ok 20:15:11 <Terkhen> I did not even know that covered existed, so you are probably right 20:15:16 <planetmaker> :-D 20:15:23 <andythenorth> it was added by someone 20:15:29 <andythenorth> the man who controls ECS :P 20:15:48 <Terkhen> I'm still wondering who added rockets and uranium, or electricity 20:15:49 <andythenorth> but of course 'covered' isn't vehicle specific, that's definitely only an attribute of the cargo : 20:15:50 <planetmaker> sheltered / covered exists for years, so it's not new. Adding it to those cargos... well. 20:16:10 <andythenorth> planetmaker: fibre crops - affect you? http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/1963 20:16:19 <andythenorth> making it piece goods instead of bulk 20:16:34 <planetmaker> yes 20:16:40 <Terkhen> base sets have always transported "cereals" uncovered 20:16:48 <b_jonas> why, covered presumably affects also how the cargo has to be stored in a warehouse, not only how it's transported 20:17:00 <planetmaker> I'd like to keep fibre crops as is 20:17:16 <planetmaker> even if bales is the usual way to transport them 20:17:21 <b_jonas> Terkhen: and that makes sense, because you have to be able to easily tell your grain trucks from your livestock trucks so you can count them 20:17:27 <planetmaker> you can even argue they're hazardous 20:17:28 <b_jonas> and the grain and livestock cars on a train 20:17:38 <planetmaker> as some of them carry the risk of self-ignition 20:17:44 <b_jonas> you don't always want realism 20:17:46 <Terkhen> that's my point... why the change? 20:17:50 <planetmaker> ^ 20:18:03 * Terkhen shall leave it uncovered 20:18:18 <Terkhen> unless grain, maize and wheat are changed too 20:18:36 <planetmaker> nah. It will not look better. It will just satisfy realism-fanatists 20:18:43 <planetmaker> it will look worse 20:18:45 <andythenorth> so of the 4 FIRS changes planned, only fibre-crops is controversial? 20:18:58 <planetmaker> sugar cane? 20:19:02 <andythenorth> oh yes 20:19:04 <andythenorth> hmm 20:19:05 <b_jonas> there are few cargos you actually transport uncovered irl, but it gives a nice way to distinguish them so we should use it more in the game 20:19:12 * Terkhen wonders what will realism-fanatics think when they try ogfx-rv and find that most cargos appear as coal or wood 20:19:25 <b_jonas> especially as on an uncovered wagon you can see what's transported and how much the wagon is filled or empty 20:19:30 <andythenorth> grain change, far as I know, is intended to make it easy to allow grain in covered hoppers, but not mineral hoppers 20:19:36 <andythenorth> but I'm far from certain 20:19:36 <b_jonas> look at the wood wagon for example 20:19:37 <planetmaker> b_jonas: exactly 20:19:38 <Terkhen> b_jonas: I completely agree, it makes sense to show the cargo 20:19:48 <Terkhen> both for knowing what you are transporting, and if the vehicle is loaded or not 20:20:05 <planetmaker> andythenorth: grain changes?! 20:20:10 <b_jonas> the openttd graphics set does this quite nice, especially with goods 20:20:36 <planetmaker> na, grain remains 20:20:40 <Terkhen> "cereals" changes 20:20:40 <planetmaker> just bulk. 20:20:53 <Terkhen> yet another cargo identical to maize, grain and wheat 20:20:59 <andythenorth> grain changes in ECS, or did I misread it? 20:21:00 <planetmaker> I'll continue to treat cereals as grain 20:21:02 <andythenorth> I can't keep up 20:21:09 <andythenorth> grain no change in FIRS 20:21:25 <Terkhen> andythenorth: in ECS, "cereals" fulfill the same role than grain/maize/wheat, but it is a different cargo 20:21:27 <planetmaker> If George / mb want to break it - let them. 20:21:27 <andythenorth> most everyone seems to support grain correctly as it's an original cargo 20:21:37 <planetmaker> exactly 20:21:42 *** mode/#openttd [+v Alberth] by ChanServ 20:21:42 *** mode/#openttd [+v DorpsGek] by ChanServ 20:21:45 *** mode/#openttd [+o Yexo] by ChanServ 20:21:54 <andythenorth> it's ok he can claim vehicle sets are not in compliance with spec :D 20:22:14 <b_jonas> is it raw cereals, or breakfast cereals (processed food product)? 20:22:18 <Terkhen> raw cereals 20:22:27 <andythenorth> cornflakes :P 20:22:29 <planetmaker> they're directly harvested in ECS 20:22:37 <planetmaker> by the cornflakes harvester :-P 20:22:44 <andythenorth> there's one in HEQS 20:22:55 <__ln__> http://gizmodo.com/5706055/this-lady-made-a-diy-tsa+like-body-scanner 20:23:04 <b_jonas> we should ditch realism and transfer everything in open or transparent wagons 20:23:05 <andythenorth> so fibre crops is controversial 20:23:07 <Terkhen> what happens if you deliver maize to a power plant or a steel mill? 20:23:17 <b_jonas> water and oil in transparent containers, 20:23:20 <andythenorth> you get popcorn of course 20:23:28 <b_jonas> livestock in circus cages 20:23:37 <planetmaker> b_jonas: that's somewhat a goal for the OpenGFX+ things. Though not everything open, but then the wagons will have different paintings. Hopefully 20:23:41 <andythenorth> egrvts has livestock as milk churns 20:23:41 <b_jonas> grain the way it currently is, with cargo up on the open 20:24:01 <b_jonas> of course, the color of the company should also be prominent 20:24:04 <planetmaker> andythenorth: just leave raw sugar and fibre crops. Nothing wrong with them in bulk... 20:24:11 <planetmaker> Realism doesn't always rule 20:24:13 <b_jonas> gold and valuables should be yellow or green 20:24:19 <Terkhen> b_jonas: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=916803#p916803 <--- you might like how cola is transported in OpenGFX+ Road Vehicles 20:24:19 <planetmaker> It's for those without phantasy 20:24:37 <andythenorth> there's no point posting screenshots to try and persuade you? 20:24:39 <b_jonas> Terkhen: nice 20:25:07 <b_jonas> goods and food in nice colored packages 20:25:18 <Terkhen> OpenGFX+ trains also has very nice sprites for the tank wagons that clearly show the cargo being transported 20:25:30 <planetmaker> for coke, yes :-) 20:25:50 <planetmaker> well, others just have the same for loaded and empty, but yes 20:25:58 <b_jonas> and I don't care if the people get cold, I want to see the passengers too 20:26:13 <b_jonas> maybe light up the window of the wagons when someone travels in them 20:26:13 <planetmaker> andythenorth: in what respect? That bulk must not transport fibre crops and sugar cane? 20:26:23 <planetmaker> How will that look bad? Hard to imagine... 20:26:51 <b_jonas> an open "armored car" might sound stupid, but who cares? it's armored as in bikini chainmail. 20:27:45 <planetmaker> bikini chainmail: loool :-) I'd love to see that, I guess ;-) 20:28:27 <George> planetmake: If George / mb want to break it - let them. -> Cargo classes is the question for Michael. Could you please contact him if you have any questions about ECS cargo classes 20:28:47 <b_jonas> planetmaker: WARNING! the TvTropes website is more ADDICTIVE than openttd is! http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChainmailBikini 20:28:57 <andythenorth> george you had enough cargo class discussions? :D 20:29:22 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I've only really got realism as an argument 20:29:29 <andythenorth> if you're disallowing that, I have nothing :P 20:30:00 <Terkhen> b_jonas: we should ban you for linking to that time sink 20:30:25 <b_jonas> Terkhen: I put a warning in 20:30:35 <Terkhen> without warning it would be a permban :P 20:30:47 <b_jonas> :-) 20:30:51 <George> andythenorth: Not much. Classes are mostly a Mivhael's question. He had more of them with other sets devs too 20:30:51 <planetmaker> George: I can't. 20:30:52 <Terkhen> the first time I lost 2 days IIRC 20:30:59 <b_jonas> we should ban the whole channel for the game is a timesink 20:31:05 <Terkhen> heh 20:31:08 <Terkhen> good point :) 20:31:22 <b_jonas> okay, maybe it's not the slowest game ever, for some Settlers games are slower 20:31:25 <b_jonas> but still 20:31:39 <Terkhen> yes, openttd can also steal a lot of time 20:32:10 <b_jonas> I store most of my bookmarks on a webpage, and I have warnings for the few most addictive sites for this reason 20:33:14 *** zodttd [~me@user-0c90n0l.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #openttd 20:34:15 <planetmaker> George: in any case I find that change... well... interesting. Adding 'covered' though is not a too big change I guess. But it certainly would IMHO have warranted at least some discussion in the NewGRF development forum 20:34:44 <planetmaker> As you might break some vehicle sets. Others which are those who mb probably has not on his personal favourism list 20:35:23 <planetmaker> especially as he's very adamant on discussing every other change to *whatever* where he's not the cause of changes 20:35:50 <George> planetmaker: What vehicles set would become broken? A name, please. And a vehicel name in the set. 20:36:10 <planetmaker> I don't know. Mine not. But I certainly won't test all sets. 20:36:33 <planetmaker> There's more than a handful of people who write newgrf... 20:36:59 <planetmaker> And as said: probably it's quite unproblematic. 20:37:08 <George> there are rather small amount of people who create vehicle GRFs, IMHO 20:37:41 * andythenorth wonders whether to mention that open wagons are all well and good, but miss the point when the graphics look nothing like the cargo 20:37:53 <andythenorth> in pikka sets, sugar cane will be a grey mineral 20:38:19 <planetmaker> andythenorth: how do you think sisal or hemp look like, if left laying around a bit? 20:38:21 <George> Every widely used set is supported, and such a change would be talen into account soon or less 20:38:36 <andythenorth> planetmaker: leave them long enough, you get coal 20:38:42 <planetmaker> :-) 20:38:43 <Terkhen> or oil 20:39:06 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 20:39:12 <planetmaker> George: is it? What are 'widely used sets'? 20:39:30 <George> MB made a note on the forums and the wiki in advice (1 month), I suppose that is enough to make a support or make discussion in case it rises some impotant problem 20:40:09 <andythenorth> George: did that go in the TTDP forum? 20:40:20 <planetmaker> I didn't see it there 20:40:22 <andythenorth> I saw it there and wondered if it should be moved to newgrf technical discussions 20:41:09 <andythenorth> It's in 'general TTDPatch' 20:41:14 <andythenorth> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=20277&hilit=cargo+class&start=420 20:41:23 <andythenorth> maybe it was announced elsewhere too 20:41:27 <planetmaker> Well, in any case, George: you will be the 'evil' guy who carries out that change - not mb :-) But again: I don't care myself 20:41:37 <George> I suppose it shopuld be copied, of cause 20:42:19 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 20:42:57 <planetmaker> the whole thread seems mis-placed 20:43:46 * andythenorth considers the classes thing 20:44:08 <andythenorth> I'm still not convinced there shouldn't be a new class for 'it flows' 20:44:20 <andythenorth> nothing said has convinced me it's a bad idea :) 20:44:22 <planetmaker> 'powder', if so at all 20:44:33 <planetmaker> or 'granular' rather 20:44:34 <andythenorth> 'powder-like' 20:44:38 <planetmaker> granular 20:44:38 <andythenorth> granular is perfect 20:44:50 <planetmaker> it's part of my daily bread :-P 20:44:57 <planetmaker> granular matter matters :-P 20:44:58 <b_jonas> does concrete flow for you? 20:45:00 <valhallasw> I suggest implementing jamming 20:45:06 <andythenorth> wearing my vehicle-author hat for a minute... 20:45:06 <planetmaker> b_jonas: rock flows for me ;-) 20:45:11 <George> planetmaker: the whole thread seems mis-placed -> you are free to contact Owen or any other admin/mod to move it 20:45:13 <b_jonas> :-) 20:45:22 <b_jonas> planetmaker: but rocks are clearly granular 20:45:27 <planetmaker> your thread, George 20:45:36 <b_jonas> planetmaker: I wouldn't call concrete granular, but it flows 20:45:53 <andythenorth> so I can (FIRS author) can set bulk and piece goods 20:45:55 <Terkhen> it's quite easy to cause jams, just play with road vehicles 20:45:58 <George> planetmaker: I'm not a mod, I can't move threads 20:46:10 <planetmaker> George: nor can I outside openttd 20:46:12 <Ammler> it should not be copied, it should be moved, ECS is part of newgrf, not ttdp imo 20:46:28 <valhallasw> b_jonas: I would. There are crushed rocks in there, so it will act like granular matter 20:46:38 <andythenorth> then I (vehicle set author) can dick about trying to xor things so that piece goods with bulk don't go in inappropriate hoppers 20:46:42 <George> Ammler: That is fine. But I'm not a mod, I can't move it 20:46:53 <andythenorth> or I could just make the hoppers only allow 'granular' 20:47:18 <andythenorth> but then I have a legacy problem with bulk :( 20:47:32 <b_jonas> concrete actually needs a very special vehicle anyway 20:47:40 <b_jonas> you can't just transport it in normal grain hoppers 20:47:42 <andythenorth> concrete needs a concrete mixer 20:47:46 <andythenorth> otherwise it sets 20:47:48 <planetmaker> andythenorth: a new class "granular" might make sense in my eyes. It'd support wagons like the ogfx-train's fertilizer wagon 20:47:48 <b_jonas> yep 20:48:08 <andythenorth> when it sets, there are only two options: jack-hammer it out, or explosives 20:48:11 <b_jonas> and how about communal garbage? 20:48:19 <planetmaker> andythenorth: adding that class would not deprecate anything 20:48:32 <andythenorth> let me just see if it actually solves the problem 20:48:38 <planetmaker> it would e.g. for fertilizer correct to be 'bulk' and 'granular' 20:48:43 <andythenorth> I am a bit sketchy on the caro props 20:48:46 <andythenorth> cargo /s 20:48:52 <andythenorth> can I AND as a vehicle author? 20:49:11 <andythenorth> i.e. only allow classes that are bulk AND granular 20:49:13 <Terkhen> hmm... 20:49:20 <andythenorth> I think I can only XOR? 20:49:21 <Terkhen> stupid bugs 20:49:22 <andythenorth> or OR 20:49:34 <Ammler> George: use report button ("!") and ask for move 20:50:31 <George> As for me as an industry/cargo set coder the cargo classes are not impotant - I can set it to anything required. It is impotant for vehicle set coders. So I suppose they should come to some solution, that is finaly documented on the wiki. And I would put them into my industry/cargo set 20:50:38 <planetmaker> andythenorth: yes, you can 20:50:43 <planetmaker> hm... no 20:50:46 <andythenorth> George: mb totally disagrees with that approach :( 20:50:57 <andythenorth> he has told me it is all about cargo definition, not vehicle support 20:51:04 <andythenorth> and he controls ECS 20:51:29 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I don't think granular helps. I think I made a bad suggestion :( 20:51:43 <planetmaker> andythenorth: not sure. 20:51:43 <andythenorth> won't be the first time :D 20:51:50 <planetmaker> There are cargos which can be blown. 20:51:59 <planetmaker> like fertilizer, grain, cement 20:52:20 <planetmaker> that's what I would envision that class to be usefull for. Or nuts, oil seeds, maize 20:52:26 <planetmaker> salt 20:52:34 <planetmaker> but probably nothing more 20:52:54 <planetmaker> but then... it's not necessary. I can do that already in my vehicle sets without that cargo class. 20:53:16 <andythenorth> I think the problem that irritates me is insolubal 20:53:21 <andythenorth> insoluble /s 20:53:32 <andythenorth> there is far too much legacy for my idea to help any 20:53:48 <George> andythenorth> I think I can only XOR? - I've already suggested to have 2 props instead (like for cargo classes) 20:54:01 <andythenorth> George: suggest it again :D 20:54:13 <andythenorth> everyone hates prop 28/29 as it stands now 20:54:18 <andythenorth> far as I know anyway 20:54:36 <planetmaker> George: vehicles use (pos. properties) and not (neg. properties) XOR (explicit cargos) 20:54:41 <George> andythenorth: Hates? Why? 20:54:49 <andythenorth> complicated 20:54:49 <planetmaker> it's not straight forward ;-) 20:54:59 <Terkhen> hard to understand 20:55:25 <George> And what is suggested? 20:55:31 <andythenorth> 'everyone' is probably not scientific 20:55:34 <andythenorth> but still... 20:55:44 <Terkhen> although it makes sense; it works quite good once you get to understand it 20:56:25 <frosch123> andythenorth: there is already a patch on the forum to configure refittability via callbacks 20:56:48 <andythenorth> so that could AND? 20:56:57 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbc08a3.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:57:01 <Terkhen> sounds interesting :O 20:57:57 <planetmaker> Well. It'd be more straight forward, if the explicit cargos were two properties, too: friends (add anyway, no matter what classes say) and foes (don't add, no matter what classes say) 20:58:13 <planetmaker> that xor for explicit cargo support is also what makes it so bad when classes change 20:58:37 <Terkhen> planetmaker: that makes sense 20:59:37 <planetmaker> hm... I guess we have a newgrf feature request, eh? :-) 20:59:47 <planetmaker> which we can shove in eachothers shoes :-P 20:59:47 * Terkhen hides 21:00:02 * andythenorth feels like classes were designed to comply to UIC standards for rail freight 21:00:07 <andythenorth> not gameplay ;) 21:00:42 <Terkhen> I have too much projects already :P 21:01:10 <Terkhen> but it would make sense to start by checking that refittability via callbacks patch 21:01:40 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I will bounce the FICR and RSGR tickets 21:01:40 <planetmaker> "callbacks patch"? 21:01:48 <andythenorth> grudgingly :P 21:01:58 <planetmaker> thank you, andythenorth :-) 21:02:11 * Terkhen cannot find it 21:02:20 <planetmaker> that'll leave me less grudgy ;-) 21:02:27 <andythenorth> I might add piece goods to RSGR 21:02:38 <andythenorth> so that authors who want to XOR could 21:02:42 <frosch123> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=812365#p812365 <- oh, i lied, i did not post it to the forums 21:02:48 <andythenorth> planetmaker would that cause you trouble? 21:02:57 <planetmaker> I don't know 21:03:36 <planetmaker> it's a cargo only used by FIRS, right? 21:03:53 <andythenorth> currently 21:04:39 <andythenorth> if I re-add bulk to SCRP, that cause you XOR troubles? 21:05:48 * Terkhen discovers that he only understand callbacks in nml :P 21:07:45 <ccfreak2k> So 21:07:47 <ccfreak2k> many 21:07:51 <ccfreak2k> initialisms. 21:08:53 <andythenorth> cbs are one of the easier things in nfo 21:08:58 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19AB1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:09:41 <Terkhen> I suppose, they are also quite easy in NML... I think that my brain just refuses to understand them for some reason 21:10:12 <planetmaker> Terkhen: I can write you a CB also only in NML... 21:10:20 <planetmaker> at least without lookup. 21:10:21 <frosch123> http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/diffs/refitmask_callback.diff <- found it \o/ 21:10:29 <planetmaker> Roughly it looks the same, though, in NFO 21:11:28 <Terkhen> that I can understand :) 21:11:40 <planetmaker> :-) 21:13:12 <planetmaker> frosch123: I'm not quite sure... is it there also then displayed to the user? 21:13:28 <frosch123> what? 21:13:41 <andythenorth> if I check random with mask 1F, what's that equivalent to in 1/n terms? 21:13:54 <frosch123> the cb is only executed on gamestart when loading the game 21:13:54 <planetmaker> within the purchase or depot view: refittable to anything but oil, passengers and fibre crops 21:14:03 <frosch123> it is not called while the game is running 21:14:16 <frosch123> you cannot dynamically change stuff over time 21:14:21 <planetmaker> oh. 21:14:25 <Terkhen> since the patch only changes the initialization of refit_mask, everything that uses it should work fine too 21:14:48 <frosch123> planetmaker: it's like a property, just as callback :p 21:14:53 <andythenorth> 1F = 1/32? 21:15:08 <Terkhen> that makes sense... removing refit support for a cargo which is currently being carried would be nasty 21:15:27 <andythenorth> 'my vehicle got old so don't carry this cargo any more' 21:15:33 <andythenorth> (it all fell through the rust in the bottom) 21:15:58 <Terkhen> you could use the capacity callbacks for that 21:16:47 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... when screen closes a window because the program ended, i don't suppose there's a way to look at the last output of that window? 21:16:50 <planetmaker> hm, that topic again :-) I still like the idea to show a rusty old vehicle when the vehicle is not serviced or too old ;-) 21:17:52 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: yes, one of the 'advantages' of not using a terminal for output :p 21:17:54 <Terkhen> sounds complicated, but it would give visual feedback to the player 21:19:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: care to explain? 21:19:34 <Alberth> if you use a terminal, you can read the output of a program after it finished 21:20:36 <Alberth> nvm 21:22:19 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbc08a3.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 21:23:58 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbc08a3.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:25:37 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: alberth * r21385 /trunk/src/cheat_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Added a missing 'this' prefix, and some documentation to cheat gui code. 21:28:09 <andythenorth> planetmaker: the HEQS bug still baffling? 21:28:33 <planetmaker> kinda. Still doesn't work exactly like it should :S 21:33:34 *** retro [~retro@125.151.broadband3.iol.cz] has joined #openttd 21:36:48 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: alberth * r21386 /trunk/src/cheat_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Use updated value to decide year to cheat to, instead of increment/decrement. 21:38:04 <andythenorth> ooh shiny :) 21:38:54 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: alberth * r21387 /trunk/src/cheat_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Add an enum for cheat numbers. 21:41:40 <Alberth> that one does not change anything, I just use a different variable :) 21:42:05 <andythenorth> looks like it might pave the way for something? 21:42:15 <Alberth> definitely :D 21:42:43 <Terkhen> :) 21:42:59 <planetmaker> :-) 21:43:07 <Terkhen> to a clean and tidy cheat gui code! 21:43:12 * planetmaker hands hammer and siecle 21:45:09 *** Vadtec is now known as Vadtec[A] 21:46:20 *** Vadtec[A] is now known as Vadtec 21:51:14 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: alberth * r21388 /trunk/src/ (cheat_gui.cpp lang/english.txt): -Feature [FS#4289]: Allow entering of the new year in a text box when cheating the year. 21:51:34 <Terkhen> the trams are sparkly now :O 21:51:35 <Alberth> not really more clean than it was 21:52:35 <Alberth> finally one can easily find out after 5000000 years :p 21:52:43 <Alberth> +what happens 21:52:48 <Terkhen> :) 21:52:57 <planetmaker> nice :-) 21:53:13 <Terkhen> my guess is "Vehicle is getting very old and needs replacement" 21:53:17 <planetmaker> finally all those cheaters like me can have more fun ;-) 21:54:15 <Alberth> why would you cheat the year, other than for testing puroses of an industry set? 21:55:12 <LordAro> v nice :D been waiting for that for a while 21:55:55 <LordAro> Alberth: to get from 1950 to 2050 in less than a hundred clicks? 21:56:16 <Alberth> yes, but why would you want to do that? 21:56:35 <Alberth> ie generating a new world is easier 21:56:41 *** Vadtec [~Vadtec@i.am.vadtec.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:56:49 <Terkhen> meh, I can't play for longer than 5 minutes without thinking of something to code 21:56:51 <LordAro> well you implemented it :p 21:57:26 * andythenorth has that problem with FIRS 21:57:43 * planetmaker hugs Terkhen :-) 21:57:53 <Alberth> I am terribly stuck with groups, so I thought to make myself useful in other ways :) 21:58:10 <andythenorth> leave groups for a bit :) 21:58:17 <andythenorth> not that big a deal 21:59:01 * Terkhen is also leaving partial refit for a while 22:00:05 <Alberth> LordAro: it is a mistake to think that I implement what I use. 22:00:39 <andythenorth> Alberth: small things? http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=51396 22:01:39 <andythenorth> http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4131 22:01:40 <Alberth> yes, but there is no room in the newgrf gui :( 22:01:41 <planetmaker> [22:54] <Alberth> why would you cheat the year, other than for testing puroses of an industry set? <-- for testing purposes of vehicle sets :-) 22:02:02 <planetmaker> basically every newgrf actually. year is an often used variable 22:02:45 <planetmaker> like ogfx+trains bulk wagons change their look when bought before / after 1970 22:03:40 <LordAro> Alberth: i thought of a reason! : people who like top play a certain decade, but only that decade (there must be someone out there...) 22:04:10 <Alberth> that's daylength patch for, isn't it? 22:04:20 <Terkhen> or they could use a NewGRF that changed everything to have wider date intervals :) 22:04:27 *** Vadtec [~Vadtec@2001:470:b868:8455::1337] has joined #openttd 22:04:42 <planetmaker> Terkhen: now, that is something I would totally use 22:04:50 <Alberth> Terkhen: that would be useful, but for existing grfs? 22:05:06 <planetmaker> Alberth: yes, exactly for them ;-) 22:05:24 <planetmaker> but it'll be a pain, I guess. And would result in sort-of day lenght 22:05:43 <Terkhen> http://tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=44544 <--- my solution required explicit support via parameters 22:05:51 <LordAro> Alberth: daylength isn't in trunk though... some don't like patches/can't compile 22:05:59 <Terkhen> it's funny, I completely forgot about this 22:06:17 <Terkhen> IIRC I even had a magic excel file that coded the vehicles for me 22:06:18 * andythenorth has never played daylength but is increasingly interested 22:06:47 <andythenorth> I've tried the 1830 - 2030 thing, and bluntly all the horses (lovely) are boring 22:06:55 <andythenorth> it's all just .... slow 22:07:04 <andythenorth> then all the good stuff goes by in a flash 22:07:04 <LordAro> :D 22:07:24 <andythenorth> I get SD-40s for...20 years then they're gone 22:07:41 <Alberth> I am carefully considering to seperate years for newgrfs from game years 22:07:58 <Terkhen> hmm... in which way? 22:08:00 <Alberth> ie grfs think time progresses much slower 22:08:17 <andythenorth> I have been quite hostile to daylength, as it has potential to create much FIRS pain 22:08:19 <Terkhen> ooh 22:08:20 <Alberth> the game play stays, years stay equally long 22:08:36 <Terkhen> I like that solution :) 22:08:50 <Alberth> but instead of incrementing a year each time, you stay in the same year (for newgrfs, and some other stuff) 22:08:56 <andythenorth> just increase all distances :P 22:08:58 <andythenorth> problem solved 22:09:21 <andythenorth> time = distance / speed 22:09:33 * andythenorth didn't do philosophy of physics for no reason :D 22:09:35 <Alberth> ie a year-length patch instead of day-length patch :) 22:10:09 <andythenorth> how many months for the year? 22:10:38 <Alberth> configurable 22:10:52 <andythenorth> can we invent new months? 22:10:59 <andythenorth> septarch 22:11:05 <andythenorth> juvember 22:11:14 <andythenorth> jangust 22:11:14 <Alberth> sounds like a nice way to specify year-length :) 22:11:42 <LordAro> thats an idea: a configurable date 22:11:45 <Alberth> I am not sure whether the years should be longer 22:12:05 <LordAro> no. of months, days, etc 22:12:40 <Alberth> not easy to change, code assumes it stays nicely in 0..11 and 1..31 range 22:13:51 <LordAro> mmm... 22:14:50 <Alberth> but perhaps that should be changed :) 22:15:48 <Alberth> only 13 occurences of _cur_month in the source :) 22:17:46 <frosch123> most places use _date 22:19:00 <Alberth> 279 times used. 22:19:27 <Terkhen> :/ 22:20:18 <Alberth> good night 22:21:19 <Terkhen> good night Alberth 22:21:38 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 22:27:42 <andythenorth> production multiplier is 16 by default? 22:27:53 <frosch123> yes 22:28:09 <andythenorth> thanks 22:34:02 <andythenorth> bed time. apparently 22:34:04 <andythenorth> good night :P 22:34:06 *** andythenorth [~andy@cpc9-aztw25-2-0-cust133.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #openttd [] 22:38:32 <LordAro> night all 22:38:48 *** LordAro [56841a4e@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 22:51:34 *** DanMacK [~DanMacK@206.191.69.149] has joined #openttd 22:53:08 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:54:11 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f7d28.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:54:33 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21389 /trunk/src/industry_gui.cpp: -Feature: Use alphabetical order when sorting industries by type at the industry directory window. 22:54:47 <DanMacK> Hello all 22:54:53 <Terkhen> hi DanMacK 23:00:50 <Terkhen> good night 23:01:13 <DanMacK> Later 23:02:21 <planetmaker> hey DanMacK 23:02:29 <DanMacK> Hey, what's new? 23:03:35 *** Keyboard_Warrior is now known as theholyduck 23:03:37 <planetmaker> I guess an unpublished sprite alignement template for your rail wagons :-) 23:04:01 <DanMacK> I used Pikka's templates :P 23:04:13 <planetmaker> yeah, they're the good ones :-) 23:04:36 <DanMacK> Are the rail cars OK though? 23:06:06 <planetmaker> they are lovely :-) 23:06:24 <DanMacK> Like the planes? :P 23:06:27 <planetmaker> If you feel like: OpenGFX+Trains could use the same thing in 32/33px length 23:06:53 <DanMacK> I'll see what I can do :) 23:07:07 <planetmaker> Ha, planes are also a jewel. 23:07:08 <DanMacK> Although 7/8 works good for toyland 23:07:32 <planetmaker> I'll have to start to cherry pick sprites I'll get into OpenGFX before the next release 23:07:43 <DanMacK> heh 23:07:57 *** Chruker [~no@port113.ds1-vj.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [] 23:08:03 <planetmaker> Well. Nothing bad with having them in the 2nd next :-) 23:09:19 <planetmaker> I guess I'll go for the RV and the planes. There's nothing orignal existing so far and it'll be the biggest step forward for OpenGFX :-) 23:09:33 *** TheMask96 [martijn@wrath.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:09:53 <DanMacK> Definitely 23:10:27 <planetmaker> I wonder whether some of the eyes could be a bit more prominent or how far it would be over-doing it, esp. in the \ and / views of planes. 23:10:43 <DanMacK> hmmm 23:11:26 <DanMacK> I could play around with it a little, but it's a fine line :) I need the original Toyland Spritesheet in png to see how Mr. Foster did it... lol 23:11:37 <planetmaker> I mean the flashbang 23:11:46 <DanMacK> Ahhh 23:12:56 <planetmaker> and I agree with you: the Juggerplane is the most beautiful with a nice smile :-) 23:14:29 <DanMacK> That was unintentional as well... lol 23:15:06 <planetmaker> Well... it makes one want to hug it - as far as hugging with sprite planes goes ;-) 23:15:12 *** TheMask96 [martijn@wrath.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 23:16:20 <planetmaker> but apropos tropic wagon sprites: the upper one with the door is passenger and the one below shall be mail? 23:16:38 <planetmaker> I'd rather interpret it as passenger wagon with open doors and the one below that when travelling 23:16:54 <planetmaker> And the 3rd row is ... mail? valuables? 23:17:36 <DanMacK> Let me check 23:19:00 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@i59F6A4CD.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 23:19:53 <DanMacK> Second one is passenger, first is mail 23:20:28 <DanMacK> third is valuables. 23:20:50 <planetmaker> oi. I'm asking as I have the idea for OpenGFX+Trains for passengers to have doors for the wagons. Which open when the train is loading. 23:20:59 <planetmaker> I'd love to have sprites for that :-) 23:21:25 <planetmaker> same actually for mail, valuables and possibly some goods wagons 23:21:38 <planetmaker> I wonder why few train sets implement that 23:21:57 <DanMacK> most coach sprites have doors 2px wide, not worth the effort really 23:22:10 <DanMacK> 1px in the diagonal 23:23:29 <planetmaker> well... it'd change colour from the normal livery to something darkish where one looks into the wagon :-) 23:23:47 <planetmaker> but possibly you're right 23:25:01 <DanMacK> Mail cars, yeah... and some coaches would work, I agree 23:25:11 <DanMacK> Revised Whizzer 23:25:50 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@89.246.189.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:25:50 <DanMacK> It's been sent 23:26:21 * planetmaker goes looking 23:29:22 <DanMacK> Still working on ships as well, about half done 23:29:51 <DanMacK> Probably Mon or Tues 23:30:31 <planetmaker> he... I actually meant the Flashbang X1. But this revised Whizzer with the separated eyes is also a nice improvement :-) 23:30:49 <planetmaker> :-) I shall be looking forward to that :-) 23:31:05 <planetmaker> And I'll have to convince Ammler to help coding all these sprites :-P 23:31:24 <DanMacK> lol 23:32:02 <DanMacK> I'll check the X1 as well 23:32:09 <DanMacK> I'm off though, heading home 23:32:20 <DanMacK> Look for more in a couple days :) 23:32:25 <planetmaker> And I'm off to bed. Nice talking to you :-) 23:32:25 * Ammler should disable highlight in this channel 23:32:39 <DanMacK> lol, hey Ammler 23:32:53 <DanMacK> Later all 23:32:53 <Ammler> sali and good night :-) 23:33:44 *** DanMacK [~DanMacK@206.191.69.149] has quit [Quit: Bye for now!] 23:34:22 <planetmaker> good night Ammler and all others :-) 23:39:26 *** staaN [~Miranda@p4FD83791.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:39:28 <SmatZ> good night Ammler and planetmaker :) 23:40:16 <Ammler> Sali Smatz 23:42:30 *** Chillosophy [~Chillosop@ip91350749.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [] 23:47:09 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19AB1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 23:48:01 *** zodttd [~me@user-0c90n0l.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]