Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:00:23 <fonsinchen> most of the time there's enough space to fill 3 rows 00:01:00 <fonsinchen> Mind that I'm not really filling rows. I still order the stuff from top to bottom and then switch to the next column 00:01:11 <fonsinchen> but I try to keep all columns equally long 00:01:26 <fonsinchen> sort of 00:01:38 <fonsinchen> it doesn't matter at all I guess 00:02:02 <Terkhen> I'll give it a look tomorrow 00:02:07 <Terkhen> I'm specially interested on unification 00:02:10 <fonsinchen> I could just make GetMaxNumberRowsLegend and GetNumberRowsLegend the same and do it like you do 00:02:23 <Terkhen> as the smallmap code is kind of hacky at some parts 00:02:51 <fonsinchen> It is not particularly nice even with my changes, but I tried to avoid code duplication. 00:05:59 <Terkhen> SMT_LINKSTATS also has a list of toggleable legend entries? 00:12:53 <fonsinchen> yes 00:13:06 <fonsinchen> btw, that patch was the wrong one. I have updated once more 00:13:14 <fonsinchen> now it's correct 00:13:36 <Terkhen> I'll check it further tomorrow 00:13:37 <fonsinchen> in SMT_LINKSTATS you can choose for what cargos you want to see stats 00:13:39 <Terkhen> good night 00:13:44 <fonsinchen> good night 00:14:57 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbab510.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:15:25 *** xiong [~xiong@netblock-72-25-106-163.dslextreme.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:23:18 *** Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe86de00-46.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 00:28:20 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: supermop] 00:29:25 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has quit [Quit: Sleep.] 00:31:37 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-4d009844.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:48:40 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC5399.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:48:57 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC5145.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined 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*** Xaroth [~Xaroth@86.92.135.101] has joined #openttd 07:49:39 <Terkhen> good morning 07:50:00 <LordAro> morning Terkhen 07:52:14 <LordAro> Rubidium: regarding your last commit: http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.hg/file/865140995f7f/src/saveload/saveload.cpp#l223 is this intentional? 07:52:39 *** perk11 [~perk11@178.34.64.67] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 07:53:19 *** perk11 [~perk11@178.34.64.67] has joined #openttd 07:54:00 *** andythenorth [~andy@cpc9-aztw25-2-0-cust133.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 07:54:19 *** Xaroth [~Xaroth@86.92.135.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:54:25 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I patched nforenum and removed ~/.nforenum 07:54:35 <andythenorth> still got a linter failure (and no openttd.grf) 07:55:36 <planetmaker> andythenorth: still same error? 07:55:37 <planetmaker> good morning also :-) 07:55:40 <Rubidium> sounds like there's a second nforenum somewhere hiding 07:55:46 <andythenorth> yup 07:55:49 <andythenorth> must be 07:55:52 <andythenorth> I'll find it 07:56:23 <planetmaker> well. the problem is that nforenum and grfcodec produce the same error message for missing nforenum as well as for too old one 07:56:37 <planetmaker> could it be correct the message this time? 07:57:35 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21731 /trunk/src/ (company_cmd.cpp saveload/saveload.cpp): -Fix (r21728): don't forget to update the saveload version, or to check for MSVC warnings 07:57:53 <kamnet> Just curious, can a road tile detect what NewGRF station tile it is next to? 07:57:54 <LordAro> :D 07:58:09 <andythenorth> yay. openttd.grf builds 07:58:18 <LordAro> also :D 07:58:22 <planetmaker> kamnet: no 07:59:28 <kamnet> Well nuts 08:00:46 <kamnet> Toying with the idea of releasing a roadset based on Industrial Station Renewal. Indecisive on how I want to style the roads 08:00:56 <planetmaker> a road tile cannot check anything. It can merely exist 08:01:11 <planetmaker> that'd need rail types 08:01:27 <planetmaker> but even then: railtypes also don't allow to check for adjacent tiles 08:01:37 <planetmaker> simple reason: too computationally expensive 08:01:42 <planetmaker> same would go for roads 08:03:06 * kamnet nods 08:03:44 <andythenorth> kamnet: the problem is that ISR roads aren't that nice ;) 08:03:55 <andythenorth> huh, did I say that out loud? 08:03:58 <andythenorth> :P 08:04:37 <planetmaker> they're missing the footwalk 08:04:45 <andythenorth> ISR needs a revamp 08:05:11 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B75A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 08:05:24 * roboboy ponders creating an Australian town names set 08:06:02 <roboboy> mixing both Aboriginal names and english name 08:06:32 <kamnet> It does, that's why I'm starting off with the roads. Players need roads they can drive on. 08:06:46 <kamnet> http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=139196 08:07:11 <andythenorth> I think ISR needs its tiles changinge 08:07:19 <andythenorth> they're dour, in all climates 08:07:23 <kamnet> Yep, they're intentionally missing the footwalks. They're industrial 08:08:39 <kamnet> I may create the footwalks for the roads that get upgraded in-town. 08:08:53 <planetmaker> kamnet: yes. that's why currently, without road types, a road set of those tiles only is not that nice in many places, as you'll have it everywhere 08:10:03 * andythenorth suggests working on road types :) 08:11:14 * LordAro agrees 08:11:26 <kamnet> That would be a nice thing, though - if the road detects it's near a home or is in-city, builds a foot path. if it detects it is next to ISR tile, then remove it and extend the asphalt. 08:13:25 <planetmaker> kamnet: yes. But as said before: 08:13:28 <planetmaker> [09:01] <planetmaker> but even then: railtypes also don't allow to check for adjacent tiles 08:13:29 <planetmaker> [09:01] <planetmaker> simple reason: too computationally expensive 08:14:05 <kamnet> I know, just daydreaming :D 08:14:29 <andythenorth> planetmaker: wrt the PBS reservations, I wonder about just adding 6 more sprites to base set 08:14:38 <andythenorth> there would be some duplication, but....it's simple 08:14:54 <andythenorth> it also allows (in future) to have sprites specific to PBS if desired 08:14:54 <planetmaker> why not use the existing ones? 08:15:07 <andythenorth> maglev is fundamentally not going to work 08:15:08 <planetmaker> ho hum... 08:15:34 <andythenorth> special case for maglev just seems a bit fragile 08:15:52 <andythenorth> my experience trying to read industry_cmd.cpp is that many special cases hurts my head 08:17:19 <planetmaker> well. it's one for the default maglev. Not more 08:17:28 <andythenorth> k 08:17:52 <planetmaker> but I won't stop you giving the other approach a shot, too. 08:17:57 <andythenorth> I'll fix the monorail sprite meanwhile 08:17:58 <planetmaker> having less cases may be worth it 08:18:07 <planetmaker> I just don't know now. 08:18:10 <andythenorth> and I'll fix the screaming baby :P 08:20:05 <planetmaker> yeah... it's important to start with drugs early :-P 08:20:29 <kamnet> screaming baby? 08:20:47 <andythenorth> he stopped now 08:21:11 <andythenorth> and I'm back to one handed typing 08:21:26 <kamnet> How old is he? 08:22:07 <andythenorth> 10mth 08:22:43 <kamnet> Very cool. It's a wonder you've been able to turn out any work at all ;-) 08:23:04 <kamnet> I'm just kidding. Wait until they start walking and crawl under the desk to yank out your power cords 08:23:32 <andythenorth> ach, nfo is quite easy with one hand 08:23:39 <andythenorth> just the numbers and A-F 08:23:53 <andythenorth> no way I'm switching to nml, I'll need shift for the brackets and stuff 08:24:00 <andythenorth> nml is not baby compatible 08:24:17 <planetmaker> :-P 08:24:36 <LordAro> :) 08:26:17 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I found a problem :) 08:27:02 <andythenorth> thought this would happen....http://tt-foundry.com/misc/crossings-ng-rails.png 08:27:12 <andythenorth> I guess a check is needed for sprite replacement 08:27:16 <andythenorth> dunno how that's done 08:27:41 <planetmaker> they're using the crossing sprite 08:27:45 <andythenorth> this is with canset / ng rails 08:27:46 <planetmaker> and replaced it 08:28:08 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host190-236-dynamic.4-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 08:28:20 <Wolf01> good morning 08:28:25 <andythenorth> I'm then drawing maglev over the top of their track sprite :P 08:29:05 <Terkhen> good morning Wolf01 08:29:36 * andythenorth wonders whether to adopt despondency or determination :) 08:30:18 <Wolf01> the second is better 08:30:34 <andythenorth> am I allowed to just break old newgrfs? 08:30:57 * LordAro suspects not... 08:31:08 <Terkhen> probably not 08:32:13 <planetmaker> might not be too good. It'd be good to find a way to detect whether the sprite is replaced by actionA 08:33:17 <planetmaker> though canset should be smarter than to use this old-fashioned method ;-) 08:33:34 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21732 /trunk/src/terraform_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r21728): show the "proper" error that the landscaping limit is reached instead of "already flat" 08:36:25 *** Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe86de00-46.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 08:38:41 <andythenorth> hmm 08:38:48 <andythenorth> I think this patch just died on the vine :P 08:39:23 <andythenorth> I had a feeling that newgrf support might kill it 08:40:53 <andythenorth> because I've extended the base set, there's just no way to work with old sets that don't know the base set is changed 08:41:30 <peter1138> this is trams without roads on level crossings? 08:41:37 <andythenorth> yup 08:42:09 <peter1138> don't bother 08:42:34 <peter1138> it's something that roadtypes would support anyway 08:42:43 <peter1138> in a newgrftactular manner 08:42:59 <andythenorth> I figure the case with roadtypes is much easier 08:43:10 <andythenorth> would have been nice to improve the default case though 08:43:25 <andythenorth> I think roadtypes isn't possible without doing this 08:43:43 <andythenorth> or at least, road types will require also that players use a railtype newgrf 08:44:27 *** afk [~Dre@92.30.156.129] has quit [Quit: +++ OK ATH OK] 08:44:30 <andythenorth> or that road type grfs also provide level crossings 08:45:47 <andythenorth> without a rail overlay in the base set for rail / monorail / maglev, there's no sane way to construct a level crossing 08:45:55 <andythenorth> everything else has the potential to look gash 08:46:23 <andythenorth> hmm 08:46:40 <andythenorth> roadtypes are going to break canset crossings anyway 08:49:41 <andythenorth> how about just breaking old grfs? 09:00:06 <LordAro> hmmm - if you comment out roadveh_cmd.cpp:771, interesting things happen if an articulated vehicle attempts to overtake another... 09:00:45 <LordAro> - only the front part of the vehicle moves to the other side of the road... 09:01:13 <LordAro> now, how to include the articulated part in the overtaking checks... 09:01:51 *** Dreamxtreme [~Dre@92.30.156.129] has joined #openttd 09:02:31 <Terkhen> that is something which requires a complete revamp IMO 09:02:43 <planetmaker> well. I think with road types something like this will have to be found anyway. IMHO it makes sense also independent 09:03:16 <andythenorth> is newgrf backwards compatibility absolute? 09:03:23 <LordAro> lovely :) 09:03:42 <planetmaker> absolute is a harsh word ;-) 09:03:47 <andythenorth> for a set that relies on replacing base set sprites.... 09:03:51 <Rubidium> andythenorth: more like "preventing breakage if possible" 09:04:16 <Rubidium> does it actually replace all the GUI sprites? 09:04:30 <Rubidium> especially the "autorail" sprite 09:04:51 <andythenorth> canset 3d does replace the autorail sprite for maglev yes 09:04:58 <andythenorth> and all the GUI sprites I can see 09:05:04 <Rubidium> that's a bummer 09:05:17 <andythenorth> ach 09:05:28 <andythenorth> canset ng breaks with rail type 09:05:37 <andythenorth> or at least, it's not compatible with nutracks 09:05:44 <andythenorth> I think 09:05:55 <planetmaker> I'd not expect anything bad 09:06:03 <planetmaker> or not much 09:06:11 <andythenorth> no it does work - my mistake 09:06:46 <andythenorth> can I detect that sprites are being replaced? 09:07:07 <Rubidium> I see no reason you can't 09:07:33 *** perk11 [~perk11@178.34.64.67] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 09:07:34 <LordAro> it would force DanMacK (or whoever) to finally update the grf ;) 09:07:50 <andythenorth> probably best we dont discuss that ;P 09:07:50 <Rubidium> although you might want to focus specifically on the existing "overlay" sprites 09:08:16 <andythenorth> ignoring my cute patch for trams... 09:08:28 <andythenorth> ..I can't see how road types can work with crossings when an old-style rail set expects certain crossing sprites 09:08:29 <Rubidium> as the non-overlay sprites get messed up with those no-grid NewGRFs 09:08:33 <LordAro> Terkhen: you're probably right, the whole file is full of goto's (which are bad, IMO) 09:09:22 <andythenorth> because the crossing sprite contains both road and rail composited, backwards compatibility *has* to break somewhere if we want both road and rail types 09:09:28 <Terkhen> sometimes gotos can be acceptable, the problem is that the overtaking code looks too much like a hack 09:09:44 <Terkhen> but there is no obvious "nice" way of dealing with them either 09:09:51 <Terkhen> at least not for me 09:11:01 <LordAro> can't be that difficult to shift the sprite drawing down by about 7(?) pixels... 09:11:29 <LordAro> or perhaps just locally 'switch' driving side for that vehicle :s 09:11:40 <Rubidium> LordAro: just set the overtake bit 09:12:31 <andythenorth> if I need to check for a base sprite being replace, where should I start looking... 09:12:34 <andythenorth> ? 09:12:40 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has joined #openttd 09:14:14 <LordAro> Rubidium: or that :) i guess it needs including into the articulated vehicles struct or whatever (this _must_ show that i have no idea what i'm doing :) ) 09:15:42 <Terkhen> LordAro: each Vehicle has a pointer to the next Vehicle in the chain 09:16:56 <Rubidium> andythenorth: the action A code? 09:16:56 <Terkhen> to get an idea check Vehicle::GetNext() and Train::GetNextArticPart() 09:17:36 <LordAro> that (should) make life easier...:) 09:22:20 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC5145.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 09:23:30 <Terkhen> be sure to check if the overtaking code takes into account the whole lenght of the vehicle and not only the first part 09:24:17 <LordAro> i'd use a for loop to go through each part :) 09:24:45 <LordAro> btw, i can't find Vehicle::GetNext(), am looking at the other though 09:26:24 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 09:27:12 <Terkhen> it must be called Next or something like that then 09:27:29 <LordAro> there is Next() :) 09:28:22 * LordAro does realise that he uses too many smileys... ( :D ) 09:28:40 <andythenorth> ok so take this case.... 09:29:03 <andythenorth> player has a road type newgrf, and an old rail set doing base set replacement 09:29:15 <andythenorth> player builds a level crossing for trams 09:29:27 <andythenorth> (forget the visual appearance, not important in this case) 09:29:33 <andythenorth> should road bits be set or not? 09:29:52 <planetmaker> for a road type: no 09:29:58 <andythenorth> ok 09:29:59 <planetmaker> you only draw the type which is there 09:30:06 <andythenorth> but the base set will draw road anyway 09:30:21 <andythenorth> so now we have bug reports about crossings where road vehicles can't drive 09:30:27 <andythenorth> because there's no road bit set for the tile 09:30:48 <andythenorth> (i.e. canset will continue drawing road, but the map thinks there's no road on the tile) 09:31:02 <andythenorth> so the game is broken in that case 09:31:04 <planetmaker> you said a road type with trams was only crossing 09:31:09 <andythenorth> yes 09:31:20 <planetmaker> then it's part of the road type code to make sure they can still drive 09:31:45 <planetmaker> the problematic part I see is an old rail newgrf and no road type 09:31:54 <planetmaker> There you wanted to introduce the new code. 09:31:59 <andythenorth> old rail grf and road type is a problem 09:32:17 <planetmaker> Don't you have some overlays there, too? 09:32:21 <andythenorth> how? 09:32:25 <planetmaker> pbs 09:32:39 <andythenorth> no / yes / maybe 09:32:41 <andythenorth> all of the above ;) 09:32:50 <andythenorth> yes we could just draw normal track, is does look gash 09:33:09 <andythenorth> basically we could just composite crossings use rail_x / rail_y pieces 09:33:13 <andythenorth> it looks crappy 09:33:24 <andythenorth> but less crappy than drawing monorail over ng track 09:33:53 <planetmaker> well. Also IMHO: old railtype and new road type: no problem if the level crossing uses the railtype's actionA sprite. 09:34:11 <planetmaker> after all you could use a new(er) newgrf. 09:34:13 <andythenorth> how do you provide the new road surface? 09:34:17 <planetmaker> I don't. 09:34:22 <planetmaker> old. ugly 09:34:26 <andythenorth> so what road type is that? 09:34:32 <planetmaker> But it's the fault of the rail replacement 09:34:40 <andythenorth> but players will report bugs :) 09:35:17 <planetmaker> that's why I proposed to (mis)use the pbs sprites 09:35:23 <planetmaker> not nice, but better visible 09:35:24 <andythenorth> there are no pbs sprites 09:35:26 <andythenorth> they don't exist 09:35:29 <planetmaker> overlay 09:35:37 <andythenorth> there is no overlay ;) 09:35:44 <andythenorth> it's just rail_x, rail_y 09:35:53 <andythenorth> well, depends on definition of overlay :D 09:36:04 <andythenorth> I think it could be the best compromise 09:36:16 <andythenorth> crossings will look bad, but won't produce bug reports 09:36:20 <andythenorth> most people won't notice 09:36:36 <andythenorth> I am increasingly convinced by this route 09:37:25 <andythenorth> it still leaves a maglev issue, and because canset uses maglev, that will be broken 09:37:55 <andythenorth> if we want road types, canset and similar old rail grfs break 09:38:28 <andythenorth> do we want road types? 09:38:43 <planetmaker> http://mz.openttdcoop.org/opengfx/newgrf.php?1=1005:1010 <-- those are overlays in my understanding and will fit 09:38:45 * roboboy wonders if canset reads TTDP's unifiedmaglev setting 09:39:09 <andythenorth> planetmaker: yes that's what I understood you to mean 09:39:17 <andythenorth> they look bad at crossings due to the sleepers 09:39:22 <andythenorth> but it's the least bad route 09:39:35 <andythenorth> planetmaker: can you find the maglev version of that sprite? 09:40:00 *** Markavian [~Markavian@CPE-60-224-82-14.wxzr1.win.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 09:41:01 <roboboy> if it does and OpenTTD was to report monorail, would that help or cause other issues? 09:41:29 <LordAro> Terkhen: there is no *documented* function called Next() and, despite many [references to/uses of] it, many searches have not found it's actual declaration. could you point me in the right direction (file)? 09:41:39 <andythenorth> roboboy: I think it might slightly help 09:42:20 <roboboy> again it's not the best way to fix your issue though 09:43:27 *** mkv` [~Markavian@CPE-60-224-82-14.wxzr1.win.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:44:37 <Terkhen> LordAro: grep Next src/* 09:47:40 <Terkhen> probably vehicle_base 09:51:10 <planetmaker> http://mz.openttdcoop.org/opengfx/newgrf.php?1=1169:1175 09:51:28 <SmatZ> LordAro: it's in SpecializedVehicle 09:51:31 <SmatZ> *s 09:51:42 <SmatZ> I think 09:52:17 <andythenorth> planetmaker: certain issue there with overlaying that over a road piece ;) 09:53:24 <andythenorth> well, I'm stuck for now 09:53:45 *** perk11 [~perk11@178.34.64.67] has joined #openttd 09:55:01 <andythenorth> even detecting that an old rail newgrf is replacing base sprites doesn't solve this 09:55:07 <planetmaker> andythenorth, introduce action5 sprites for that... 09:55:19 <andythenorth> I think I did already :) 09:55:35 <andythenorth> but my patch can't go and update all old newgrfs :o 09:55:37 <LordAro> SmatZ, Terkhen: i've found something that looks right: http://docs.openttd.org/structVehicle.html#aec3309baad110d2aa9476945cee13037" target="_blank">http://docs.openttd.org/structVehicle.html#aec3309baad110d2aa9476945cee13037 can't say i understand it though :) and it appears that inline functions don't appear on the function list (of http://docs.openttd.org) 09:56:08 <planetmaker> well. if they replace the rail, they also replace the overlay. 09:56:14 <planetmaker> problem solved 09:56:34 <peter1138> did anyone protest at it being called "terraforming" limit? 09:56:38 <planetmaker> if they don't: newgrf bug 09:56:55 <andythenorth> that's the only answer that's going to make road types possible 09:57:16 <planetmaker> andythenorth, also honestly: you cannot replace a track sprite and not handle the overlay. 09:57:29 <andythenorth> I do handle the overlay - check the code ;) 09:57:35 <andythenorth> I have all that worked out and working 09:57:37 <planetmaker> not you. A newgrf author 09:57:43 <andythenorth> ah :) 09:57:49 <planetmaker> the other you ;-) 09:57:55 <planetmaker> English is there a very inaccurate language 09:57:59 <andythenorth> yes 09:58:14 <andythenorth> but I / we am changing the spec, and some of these grfs are like 3/4 years old 09:58:21 <andythenorth> there will be whining 09:58:27 <andythenorth> it will be a 'misfeature' 09:58:32 <andythenorth> various people will sulk 09:58:45 <peter1138> what's the problem again? 09:58:46 <andythenorth> players will ask for yet another advanced option 09:58:49 *** [com]buster [~Combuster@82-171-220-59.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:58:51 <Terkhen> :D 09:59:18 <SmatZ> - Change: Changed 'terraforming' to 'landscaping' 09:59:19 <andythenorth> peter1138: the cause of the problem is newgrfs replacing rail without using rail types 09:59:25 <andythenorth> e.g. old ones 09:59:26 <SmatZ> from changelog for 0.3.4 09:59:33 <peter1138> why is that a problem? 09:59:46 <andythenorth> for as long as they depend on the combined crossing / road sprite, there's no sane way to draw road type level crossings 10:00:01 <peter1138> SmatZ, http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/changeset/21728/trunk/src/lang/english.txt 10:00:23 <peter1138> andythenorth, there is, but it might not look as good 10:00:33 <andythenorth> I could live with that 10:00:33 <planetmaker> andythenorth, indeed. I don't see the problem either ;-) 10:00:37 <peter1138> railtypes introduces the crossing overlays 10:00:37 <SmatZ> peter1138: I thought you don't like the term "terraforming" in english.txt 10:00:41 <andythenorth> yes 10:00:41 <planetmaker> just stick with the frigging overlay. Done 10:00:49 <andythenorth> go look at the monorail overlay again :P 10:00:52 <peter1138> SmatZ, multiple conversations :) 10:01:01 <andythenorth> where's the track in the monorail overlay? 10:01:05 <andythenorth> it ain't there :D 10:01:08 <andythenorth> it's in the ground sprite 10:01:11 <SmatZ> :) 10:01:18 <peter1138> andythenorth, bzzt 10:01:18 <andythenorth> ergo, no monorail track at crossings 10:01:26 <peter1138> andythenorth, you draw a base road tile 10:01:31 <andythenorth> hey, I'll patch for it and we can decide :) 10:01:40 <peter1138> andythenorth, and then draw a single track overlay piece (the overlays that have always been there) 10:01:51 <peter1138> andythenorth, ugly as fuck, but possibly okay 10:01:58 <andythenorth> I'll patch it 10:02:05 <andythenorth> monorail overlay will look dumb :) 10:02:11 <peter1138> i'd just rather it wasn't hacked in now before roadtypes 10:02:32 <peter1138> andythenorth, monorail always looks dumb 10:02:58 <andythenorth> peter1138: I'm trying to do this in a way that supports road types ;) 10:03:22 <andythenorth> in fact, I already had that patch 10:03:24 <andythenorth> http://tt-foundry.com/misc/road-rail-crossing-3.png 10:03:32 <andythenorth> look at the tram track crossing on maglev 10:03:34 <andythenorth> ignore the others 10:03:42 <andythenorth> that uses the overlay 10:03:55 <andythenorth> that was one of my earlier attempts before dicking around with extending base set 10:04:05 <LordAro> peter1138: how far away is roadtypes then :p# 10:04:18 <peter1138> LordAro, a fair way off 10:04:25 <peter1138> LordAro, but adding hacks ontop of hacks is always a hassle 10:04:36 <andythenorth> LordAro: if I keep working on it, I think it's about two years 10:05:11 <andythenorth> peter1138: I don't want to add hacks. they smell 10:05:12 *** planetmaker [~planetmak@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has left #openttd [... und tschÃŒÃ!] 10:05:20 *** planetmaker [~planetmak@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 10:05:21 *** mode/#openttd [+o planetmaker] by ChanServ 10:05:21 <planetmaker> hm 10:05:25 <LordAro> so 1.3 or 1.4? :) 10:05:31 <andythenorth> I want to break old newgrfs :P 10:05:37 <andythenorth> or maglev 10:05:50 <andythenorth> either of those are preferable to some special case badness 10:06:52 <andythenorth> hmm 10:07:32 <andythenorth> how about....just ditch the built in types + base set sprites, and ship road type / rail type newgrfs properly in openttd.grf? 10:07:37 <andythenorth> then delete the legacy stuff? 10:08:07 <andythenorth> i.e. move rail / elrail / monorail / maglev / default roads to newgrf 10:08:24 <andythenorth> no special cases 10:08:25 <planetmaker> andythenorth, that breaks _all_ old rail newgrfs (and road newgrfs) 100% 10:08:30 <andythenorth> heh 10:08:46 <andythenorth> probably not popular 10:08:48 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-96-173.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 10:09:01 <planetmaker> no. Don't underestimate the time constants in grf usage 10:09:08 <planetmaker> those old rail newgrfs are still used 10:09:14 <andythenorth> I use them 10:09:24 <planetmaker> see 10:09:29 <andythenorth> exactly 10:09:47 <roboboy> couldn't you somehow add a parameter to openttd.grf to chose? TTDP does with TTDPbase(ww).grf 10:09:58 <andythenorth> ok, so if we just use overlays at level crossings, it looks more or less like this: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/road-rail-crossing-3.png 10:10:04 <peter1138> roboboy, no 10:10:14 <planetmaker> that's a pain :-) 10:10:39 <peter1138> andythenorth, maglev crossings suck anyway 10:10:42 <planetmaker> (referring to roboboy's suggestion) 10:10:45 <andythenorth> that's what happens if we (a) stop setting road bits for trams (b) draw overlays instead of relying on crossing sprite alone 10:11:14 <andythenorth> actually that image probably has nothing to do with road bits, but that's an implementation detail 10:11:14 <planetmaker> that looks acceptable 10:11:19 <peter1138> or just leave it as is 10:11:21 <roboboy> Ok (TTDP uses the parameters for non game changing things like foundation colours/styles) 10:11:26 <peter1138> is that bit of road really that annoying? 10:11:33 <andythenorth> peter1138: leave it as is means no road types 10:12:07 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AFA302.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 10:12:16 <andythenorth> forget the appearance, it comes down to this: set road bits at tram-only crossings yes / no? 10:12:26 <andythenorth> if road bits are set, what road type should be drawn? 10:12:31 <planetmaker> for a road type implementation: no 10:12:33 <peter1138> andythenorth, no it doesn't 10:12:55 <andythenorth> what have I missed :) 10:13:30 <andythenorth> planetmaker: if road bits aren't set, you have road graphics in game that road vehicles can't drive on 10:13:34 <andythenorth> that's a bug 10:13:44 <planetmaker> then keep it 10:13:58 <andythenorth> live with the bug? 10:14:09 <peter1138> for road types without rail types: draw straight rail piece, overlay road crossing graphics 10:14:40 <planetmaker> peter1138, I'd do it vice versa 10:14:54 <planetmaker> oh uhm. with rail types 10:14:56 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-120-41.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:15:06 <andythenorth> so road types need to provide crossing graphics? 10:15:09 <peter1138> planetmaker, with road types and _with_ rail types, yes 10:15:29 <planetmaker> andythenorth, not sure, but they well might 10:15:29 <peter1138> andythenorth, yes 10:15:45 <planetmaker> no loss there, if they do and authors use the same sprite as for normal road 10:16:03 <andythenorth> they have to contain a gap for the track 10:16:07 <andythenorth> how wide should that be? 10:16:15 <planetmaker> they don't need a gap 10:16:25 <planetmaker> they just might want to provide a different side walk or alike 10:16:30 <planetmaker> or different tarmac 10:16:34 <andythenorth> we're drawing them over the rail in this version, how do we see the rail? :o 10:16:44 <planetmaker> we draw them under the rail 10:16:51 <planetmaker> changing that breaks railtypes 10:16:55 <peter1138> andythenorth, it's newgrf, they'll be able to check the railtype and provide different graphics if need be 10:17:04 <andythenorth> ooh, that's evil 10:17:05 <peter1138> action 3/2/1 10:17:07 <peter1138> not action 5 10:17:11 *** X-2 [~X-2@5ED662EB.cm-7-7b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 10:17:16 <planetmaker> peter1138, road types should be _under_ the rail. Makes IMHO much more sense 10:17:24 <planetmaker> much better compatible 10:17:41 <peter1138> planetmaker, yes, that would be the normal case 10:17:46 * roboboy forgets which extra sprites andy's patch adds 10:18:00 <peter1138> i'm just talking about a specific case for road types on oldrails 10:18:06 <planetmaker> that's what andy talked about in the last "paragraph" 10:18:22 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 10:18:25 <andythenorth> I thought we wanted to eliminate the special case? 10:18:31 <andythenorth> i.e. 'leave it as is' ? 10:18:34 <andythenorth> :o 10:18:38 <peter1138> planetmaker, problem with "road then rail overlay" is maglev in road-rail-crossing-3.png :) 10:18:49 * andythenorth wants to be rude about maglev 10:18:55 <peter1138> be rude 10:18:58 <peter1138> i never use it 10:19:13 <andythenorth> ok imagine some rudeness ;P 10:19:20 <planetmaker> peter1138, that's a border case. Not sure it needs much attention 10:19:30 <peter1138> planetmaker, probably not, but stil 10:19:33 * roboboy prefers it over monorail but can live with uglyness 10:19:52 <planetmaker> roboboy, that's what things like OpenGFX+Rails or so kick in ;-) 10:19:57 <peter1138> quite simple to just make a newgrf that provides railtypes for the standard tracks 10:19:57 <planetmaker> solving those uglyness'es 10:20:02 <andythenorth> I reckon 10:20:03 <planetmaker> yes 10:20:21 <andythenorth> just ship the grf, use opengfx sprites for maglev / monorail 10:20:23 <planetmaker> someone just has to provide the sprites best in the format I used for SER and I'll do that 10:20:23 <peter1138> anyway, i want motorways 10:20:35 <andythenorth> yeah well that's easy 10:20:40 <andythenorth> no crossings for motorways :P 10:20:41 <peter1138> so that, come late 20th century, i can rip up the rails and transport everything by road 10:20:50 <peter1138> and suffer massive congestion :D 10:20:59 <andythenorth> what got decided here? 10:21:06 <andythenorth> use the existing overlay sprites 10:21:13 <andythenorth> live with slightly bad appearance 10:21:18 <andythenorth> don't break old newgrfs (much) 10:21:21 <peter1138> andythenorth, road-rail-crossing-3, i think 10:21:30 <planetmaker> yeah 10:21:33 <peter1138> andythenorth, but i don't really see the need to avoid having road on tram crossings at the moment 10:21:55 <andythenorth> you know more than me....but the issue was really about road bits at crossings 10:22:00 <andythenorth> I wanted to stop setting them 10:22:05 <roboboy> I like what the others said 10:22:07 <andythenorth> for tram-only crossings 10:22:18 <andythenorth> the piece of road I don't care about either way 10:22:47 <andythenorth> I guess when building the road & rail type could be checked, and the bits set / not set accordingly 10:22:53 <andythenorth> seems a bit complex 10:23:11 <roboboy> and then patch it all up with a shipped railtypes grf 10:23:38 <andythenorth> if rail type....don't set bits 10:23:47 <roboboy> are the rails in OpenGFX the same coul as Default? 10:24:08 <roboboy> colour 10:24:19 <planetmaker> no idea. probably not. But does it matter? 10:24:33 <roboboy> not that it would be noticeable realy 10:24:43 <andythenorth> hmm 10:24:50 <andythenorth> how would bits be set for road type 10:25:04 <andythenorth> if road type && rail type, don't set bits for trams 10:25:07 <planetmaker> roboboy, openttd.grf and ogfxe_extra.grf are equivalent. E.g. if you can fix it with openttd.grf, OpenGFX can fix it the same way. No issue 10:25:09 <peter1138> whatever bits are necessary 10:25:22 *** clum [~clum@92.9.250.32] has joined #openttd 10:25:37 <peter1138> can be done with 8 bits 10:25:51 <planetmaker> openttd.grf is 'just' part of the in-built support for the TTD base set 10:26:31 <andythenorth> we only need the ROADTYPE_ROAD bit set at tram crossings if there's no rail type in use 10:26:56 <peter1138> no rail type on level crossings? that'll be novel 10:27:18 <roboboy> ok pm 10:27:20 <andythenorth> rail type newgrf providing overlay (I should have said) 10:27:22 <andythenorth> he 10:27:33 <peter1138> no 10:27:52 <andythenorth> something else? 10:27:53 <peter1138> whether railtypes or roadtypes are in use or not, the map bits will be used in the same way 10:28:20 <peter1138> i mean, rail types always exist, just not "railtypes", heh 10:28:33 <peter1138> and thus road types will always exist, just not "roadtypes"... pom te pom 10:28:39 <andythenorth> ho 10:28:51 <peter1138> (that's what you get for trying to avoid calling it "new...") 10:30:14 <andythenorth> there would still effectively be ROADTYPE_ROAD and ROADTYPE_TRAM? 10:30:23 <andythenorth> or do I have epic misunderstanding? 10:30:47 <peter1138> just like there are 16 rail types, there'd be 16 road types 10:30:58 <andythenorth> ok 10:31:06 <peter1138> road = 0, tram = 1 10:31:09 <andythenorth> yeah 10:31:12 <andythenorth> that's what I mean 10:31:18 <andythenorth> basically, 'draw this one over that one' 10:31:23 <andythenorth> which rail types don't do 10:31:27 <peter1138> map bit usage is increased 10:31:42 <peter1138> because you need to store both road types as well as road bits 10:32:02 <peter1138> needs 8 bits to store both road types 10:33:16 <peter1138> damn it, you're making me discuss this and thus making me want to finish it :s 10:33:29 <andythenorth> I just wanted to start it:) 10:33:49 <andythenorth> when I read stuff, crossings looked a bit fiddly, so I thought I'd start there 10:34:13 <andythenorth> hmm 10:34:29 <peter1138> well 10:34:34 <peter1138> road types is already started 10:35:07 <andythenorth> what about roadtypes? 10:35:14 <peter1138> IOGHRIerhgohrgerwgre 10:35:16 <peter1138> roadtypes is already started 10:35:32 <andythenorth> I think that's going to become annoying... 10:35:44 <andythenorth> especially if I spend the next two years making that mistake 10:35:52 <andythenorth> can't we just rename the damn thing? 10:36:03 <peter1138> newroutes! 10:36:05 <peter1138> :S 10:36:14 <peter1138> r19517 :S 10:36:23 <peter1138> let's see how many conflicts there are... 10:36:50 <andythenorth> newroads 10:36:51 <peter1138> 3 files 10:36:55 <andythenorth> newindustries 10:36:57 <andythenorth> newcargos 10:37:00 <andythenorth> newgrf 10:37:07 <andythenorth> give or take some capitalisation 10:37:42 <peter1138> everyone used to complain that everything is new this, new that... 10:37:46 *** DDR [~DDR@66.183.113.224] has quit [Quit: In democracy it's your vote that counts; In feudalism it's your count that votes. - Mogens Jallberg] 10:38:38 <andythenorth> well they're not offering to work on it :P 10:39:30 *** Eddi|zuHause4 is now known as Eddi|zuHause 10:39:56 *** perk11 [~perk11@178.34.64.67] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 10:43:52 <Terkhen> roadtypes renewal 10:43:59 <peter1138> heh 10:48:00 *** xiong [~xiong@netblock-72-25-106-190.dslextreme.com] has joined #openttd 10:51:57 <andythenorth> ach 10:52:03 <dihedral> good morning 10:52:09 <andythenorth> too many versions of my patch :P 10:54:27 *** dotwaffle [~dotwaffle@2a00:14f0:0:aaaa:230:48ff:fe32:4fd0] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4-rc2] 10:55:55 <Terkhen> good morning dihedral 10:58:09 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> can I detect that sprites are being replaced? <-- the shore sprite code has a check whether they were replaced with Action A or Action 5, and does different things. 10:58:20 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: thanks 10:58:26 <andythenorth> might not though 10:58:32 <andythenorth> adds cruft :) 11:00:36 <LordAro> peter1138: is there any version of roadtypes published anywhere? a quick search doesn't reveal anything... 11:00:59 <roboboy> somwhere on fuzzle.org? 11:02:53 <LordAro> nothing obvious... 11:03:10 <Terkhen> http://hg.openttd.org/ 11:03:24 <LordAro> that's empty :p 11:03:50 <Eddi|zuHause> @openttd commit 11973 11:03:50 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Commit by frosch :: r11973 /trunk/src (newgrf.cpp newgrf.h) (2008-01-24 14:49:40 UTC) 11:03:51 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: -Fix (r11726, r11947)[FS#1683]: Use grass tiles for corner shores, if shores got replaced by ActionA. 11:04:00 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: ^ 11:04:04 <dihedral> Rubidium, i do not understand why the burst and per 64k frames values default to such high numbers 11:04:44 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21733 /trunk/src/ (company_cmd.cpp misc.cpp smallmap_gui.cpp): 11:04:44 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Codechange: Clarify the update owner legend code. 11:04:44 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Fix: Prevent crashes caused by deleted companies. 11:08:35 *** Ylioppilas [~svkoskin@hoasnet-fe17dd00-222.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 11:08:53 *** Devroush [~dennis@94-225-75-247.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 11:09:41 <Ylioppilas> I see there's a OS X port available of 1.10-beta. Have the project solved its problems with OS X porting and is there going to be stable versions for OS X again? 11:11:35 <dihedral> Rubidium, if you change any of those values on a network servers, existing companies are not updated - new ones of course are 11:12:24 <__ln___> Ylioppilas: No and no. 11:13:00 <dihedral> __ln___, where does that second no come from? 11:13:03 <andythenorth> or no and yes 11:13:54 *** Chrill [Chrill@ip68-8-120-178.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #openttd 11:15:14 <Chrill> ok, so I'm playing 1.1.0-beta2 and just had the game crash on me when I was doing nothing ingame. Therefore, the crash was not caused by something I directly did. However, the game has seen a NewGRF added (LongVehicles 4) since its start. Is it without purpose to send the bug report and similar to the devs if I've used "set scenario_developer true"? 11:16:24 <dihedral> Chrill, has it not been made quite clear that mucking about with newgrfs in-game is not supported? 11:16:33 <Chrill> It has been, which is why I'm asking :P 11:16:40 <SmatZ> Chrill: if you haven't changes the grf config, or only added vehicle newgrfs with Engine Pool enabled, it should be ok 11:16:44 <SmatZ> *d 11:16:50 <SmatZ> ok, it seems you DID change it :) 11:16:58 <Chrill> SmatZ: Well, I've only added that one newGRF 11:17:19 <dihedral> why on earth do people - no matter what you say - still try to find ways around it 11:17:50 <SmatZ> Chrill: if you are unsure, open a bugreport, it might be closed as invalid, and then you will have more experience for the next time :) 11:17:51 <Chrill> dihedral: why do you get upset when, instead of going "OMG BUG", I ask "doing what I did is the reason, right?" 11:18:12 <Chrill> SmatZ: thank you, will do 11:18:14 <Terkhen> Ylioppilas: some of them have been corrected | getting feedback and bug reports about the OS X port will help on resuming stable versions for OS X 11:18:45 <planetmaker> Chrill, because if you change newgrf on a running game the likelyhood of finding a bug instead of having messed up the savegame is very very slim 11:18:54 *** LordAro [56a754a1@ircip3.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 11:19:03 <planetmaker> having an invalid savegame is the number one thing you need to mention when you deal with such broken savegame 11:19:04 <dihedral> Chrill, because you do something that is not supported and ask for support? want to report an issue on something previously announced not supported 11:19:16 <Chrill> I did not ask for support, I asked for confirmation 11:19:18 <dihedral> something deliberately disabled under standard conditions 11:20:14 <dihedral> it just does not make sense to report a bug on a tampered with game 11:20:33 <dihedral> "hey i edited my save game with a hex editor and now i experienced a crash - i did nothing though" 11:20:38 <planetmaker> <SmatZ> Chrill: if you haven't changes the grf config, or only added vehicle newgrfs with Engine Pool enabled, it should be ok <-- SmatZ give me 10 minutes and I give you a newgrf which breaks that assumption 11:20:47 <Terkhen> :D 11:20:50 <SmatZ> ... 11:20:53 <dihedral> hehe 11:21:01 <Chrill> and that was all I was asking, and SmatZ made it very clear to me in a proper and friendly manner 11:21:12 <SmatZ> we are all wasting time by trying to find out what happened 11:21:13 <dihedral> Chrill, do you still have a save game of before you changed newgrf settings? 11:21:17 <planetmaker> he obviously gave - sorry SmatZ - wrong information 11:21:19 <dihedral> e.g. autosave perhaps 11:21:30 <Chrill> dihedral: well I have the original scenario 11:21:31 <SmatZ> if Chrill opens a bugreport, it will be clear immediatelly 11:21:34 <planetmaker> it's not save to add newgrfs. It works often. But definitely not always 11:21:37 <Terkhen> agreed :) 11:21:46 * planetmaker hugs SmatZ :-) 11:22:02 <peter1138> i remember, back in the day 11:22:12 <peter1138> when it was our goal to support adding/remove grfs as much as possible 11:22:14 <dihedral> Chrill, it would be interesting to find out if something else was broken but i guess reproducing that will be difficult 11:22:21 <peter1138> there's a load of code relating to stations to support it 11:22:31 <Chrill> dihedral: lemme check if the first save is with or without longvehicles ;) 11:22:39 <peter1138> vehicles were always a spanner in the works though 11:22:51 <planetmaker> peter1138, you can still do that. But OpenTTD has no way to stop a newgrf not playing save in that respect 11:22:59 <planetmaker> Even without bad intentions from the newgrf author's side 11:23:08 <Eddi|zuHause> <peter1138> there's a load of code relating to stations to support it <-- but yet it still fails horribly 11:23:09 <peter1138> well yeah 11:23:13 <planetmaker> thus it's for SE developers and newgrf developers only 11:23:17 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, it didn't crash :D 11:23:21 <peter1138> mostly 11:23:28 <planetmaker> peter1138, also a station newgrf can crash your game 11:23:28 *** Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe86de00-46.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 11:23:35 <planetmaker> ISR, the most used one, is the best example 11:23:35 <dihedral> Chrill, i do not know if you have autosave settings defined, but if so that could be a good place to check ;-) 11:23:42 <peter1138> it was the non-passable station bit that caused problems :D 11:23:49 <planetmaker> updating ISR made me crash OpenTTD countless times when loading old savegames 11:23:58 <peter1138> that would've been stored on the map eventually 11:24:22 <Chrill> dihedral: heh, they apparently save monthly and so I can only go 15 months back. sorry, no save from before adding it since I did so within a few months of starting the game. I had no roadvehicles, wanted a bus, added LV4 11:24:29 <SmatZ> storing that bit in the map array could make pathfinders faster 11:25:07 <planetmaker> at least two bits, eh? Direction is also needed 11:25:14 <dihedral> Chrill, then it could quite likely be due to the newgrf - at least it would be very hard to find out, as the result can take ages to show 11:25:17 <peter1138> two? 11:25:19 <peter1138> only 1 11:25:48 <planetmaker> what happens if I change the passable direction, peter1138 ? Or make it unpassable? 11:25:57 <Chrill> dihedral: yeah I figured it'd almost certainly be down to adding said newgrf, but I figured since I was running the testing, I'd at least mention it here in case the devs were interested 11:26:00 <planetmaker> that's like three states which require two bits 11:26:03 <peter1138> planetmaker, direction is already stored 11:26:09 <planetmaker> ah, ok 11:26:15 <planetmaker> and not updated? 11:26:22 <SmatZ> it applies to other station types than rail station? 11:26:25 <peter1138> SmatZ, no 11:26:28 <SmatZ> ok :) 11:26:34 <peter1138> newstations is only about rail stations 11:26:38 <peter1138> (unless that got changed) 11:27:01 <SmatZ> ok, I got a bit confused by pm :) 11:27:48 *** planetmaker is now known as TheGreatConfusor 11:27:54 <TheGreatConfusor> :-P 11:28:05 <SmatZ> :) 11:29:27 <SmatZ> not that great actually :) 11:29:39 *** TheGreatConfusor is now known as planetmaker 11:29:49 <SmatZ> :) 11:29:53 <planetmaker> well, then I create the planet of confusion ;-) 11:29:58 <SmatZ> :-D 11:30:02 <planetmaker> if needed it can be ejected into deep space and be gone 11:30:07 <SmatZ> hehe 11:30:24 <dihedral> it'll come back 11:30:39 <planetmaker> dihedral, I'd not count on that within a finite time ;-) 11:31:02 <SmatZ> #define INF 1000 11:31:13 <SmatZ> (is that still in openttd code?) 11:31:13 <planetmaker> :-D 11:31:52 <SmatZ> static const int INF = 1000; 11:31:56 <SmatZ> no longer as define though :) 11:31:58 <dihedral> planetmaker, i never said i'd be around for that :-P 11:33:02 <dihedral> http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/changeset/21728 <- can someone shed some light onto this for me? 11:33:54 *** Eddi|zuHause2 [~johekr@p54B768F7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 11:33:54 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B768F7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:34:45 <dihedral> i fail to entirely grasp the what and how 11:35:23 <dihedral> i am missing an update of some sort - or at least i fail to see where it happens, and i miss an update to companies when the setting changes on a network server - however that may very well be intended 11:35:57 <dihedral> and codewise i fail to understand the difference between the burst and the per 64k frames 11:37:33 *** KouDy [~KouDy@245.40.49.60.kmr01-home.tm.net.my] has joined #openttd 11:37:34 <SmatZ> c->clear_limit = min(c->clear_limit + _settings_game.construction.clear_per_64k_frames, 11:37:47 <SmatZ> _settings_game.construction.clear_frame_burst << 16); 11:37:57 <SmatZ> hmm 11:38:10 <dihedral> yes - now tell me the difference :-P 11:38:27 <SmatZ> I was wondering if it can overflow 11:38:29 *** X-2 [~X-2@5ED662EB.cm-7-7b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:38:32 <SmatZ> but it can't so fine :) 11:39:05 <SmatZ> actually... 11:39:17 <SmatZ> no 11:39:29 * dihedral pats SmatZ on the head 11:40:06 <SmatZ> :) 11:40:29 <dihedral> my gut feeling tells me it is a nice thing :-P 11:40:52 <dihedral> but i would not mind grasping it's full potential :-P 11:41:43 <dihedral> e.g. why is the default of terraform_per_64k_frames already a << 16 value, and terraform_frame_burst will be << 16 in game 11:42:45 <dihedral> looking at that line you posted SmatZ i have the impression the 'burst' value is merely a clamp to accumulated limits 11:43:11 <SmatZ> terraform_frame_burst limits number of tiles terraformed in one frame 11:43:37 <SmatZ> terraform_per_64k_frames limits the average number of tiles terraformed over 65536 frames 11:43:55 <dihedral> SmatZ, that is what i would have guessed, but i fail to see that code wise 11:45:12 <SmatZ> or 11:45:25 <SmatZ> well, it seems to be visible from that diff 11:45:44 <SmatZ> terraform_per_64k_frames is added to c->terraform_limit 11:46:17 <dihedral> but the constructor does: 11:46:18 <dihedral> this->terraform_limit = _settings_game.construction.terraform_frame_burst << 16; 11:46:36 <dihedral> and in the update function: 11:46:37 <dihedral> this->terraform_limit = _settings_game.construction.terraform_frame_burst << 16; 11:46:41 <dihedral> ops 11:46:44 <dihedral> c->terraform_limit = min(c->terraform_limit + _settings_game.construction.terraform_" target="_blank">game.construction.terraform_per_64k_frames, _settings_game.construction.terraform_" target="_blank">game.construction.terraform_frame_burst << 16); 11:46:45 <dihedral> that 11:46:47 <SmatZ> that loads the maximum value 11:47:03 <SmatZ> terraform_frame_burst is the maximum average value 11:47:16 <SmatZ> terraform_per_64k_frames is the speed at which ... 11:47:17 <SmatZ> hmm 11:47:26 <SmatZ> well, it's not that easy to explain :) 11:47:35 <dihedral> and now where do this 64k frames come from :-P 11:47:38 <SmatZ> I feel somehow tired today 11:48:44 <SmatZ> well, yes 11:48:46 <dihedral> so if i define a burst of 0 nobody will ever terraform anything 11:49:04 <dihedral> if i define a burst of 1, 65k is the limit 11:49:22 <dihedral> terraforming 65k tiles is not a small amount 11:49:37 <dihedral> or is that tile corners? but then it's still quite some amount 11:50:02 <dihedral> seeing as the burst defaults to 4096 << 16 .... 11:50:26 <SmatZ> 4096 tiles it 64x64 tiles 11:50:47 <dihedral> what what is that << 16 ? 11:51:06 <dihedral> the burst value is always << 16 - which is quite a large number 11:51:24 <dihedral> still a 64x64 tile area is not small 11:51:35 <SmatZ> how it should work: 11:51:48 * dihedral is lost 11:51:53 <SmatZ> terraform_frame_burst says how many tiles can be terraformed in one frame 11:52:12 <SmatZ> terraform_per_64k_frames is how many you regain from that limit each frame 11:53:21 <SmatZ> or better, if you terraform 4000 tiles, you have only 96 tiles left 11:53:44 <SmatZ> next frame, terraform_per_64k_frames >> 16 is added to that limit 11:54:03 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.0.107.57] has joined #openttd 11:54:03 <SmatZ> so, say, you can terraform another 64 tiles 11:54:06 <SmatZ> so 96+64 11:54:34 <SmatZ> I am dumb today 11:54:41 <dihedral> where did you get that >> 16 from? 11:54:59 * dihedral hugs SmatZ 11:55:01 <SmatZ> well, the limit is << 16 11:55:02 <dihedral> you aint dumb ;-) 11:55:13 <SmatZ> it's better to talk about values >>16 instead :) 11:55:23 <SmatZ> I feel dumb :) 11:55:31 <dihedral> GB(c->clear_limit, 16, 16) <- gets the upper 16 bits, the burst? 11:55:34 <SmatZ> yes 11:56:37 <SmatZ> maybe those values are <<16 to allow numbers like 0.5 terraformed tiles in average 11:56:40 <dihedral> now one last question :-) 11:56:54 <dihedral> what defines the 'per 64k frames' 11:57:04 <dihedral> is there a loop that is only run ones every 64k frames? 11:57:20 <dihedral> s/ones/once/ 11:57:58 * andythenorth wants to finish a crossings patch 11:58:00 <dihedral> e.g. the main loop in openttd.cpp 11:58:04 <andythenorth> the baby doesn't share my goal :( 11:59:22 <SmatZ> the cost of each terraform is 1<<16 11:59:25 <SmatZ> not 1 11:59:38 <dihedral> oh 11:59:45 <SmatZ> terraform_per_64k_frames is added to c->terraform_limit each frame 11:59:48 <dihedral> to hit the burst 12:00:02 <SmatZ> up to the limit of construction.terraform_frame_burst 12:00:17 <dihedral> wow 12:00:43 <dihedral> so if i set the per_64k_frames to 1 every day someone may terraform / clear 74 tiles more 12:01:03 <SmatZ> don't set it to 1 12:01:06 <SmatZ> but to 1<<16 :) 12:01:29 <dihedral> then why is one config value always << 16 in game and the other already defined <<16 in the config file 12:01:30 <dihedral> :-P 12:01:58 <SmatZ> probably to allow unrounded values 12:02:17 <dihedral> but makes it harder to understand :-P 12:03:34 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause 12:04:01 *** Chrill [Chrill@ip68-8-120-178.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [] 12:07:27 <SmatZ> it should read "at most 64k frames" 12:08:01 <peter1138> terrafrom ;( 12:08:02 <peter1138> er 12:08:05 <peter1138> terraform ;( 12:08:25 <SmatZ> because if the "burst" limit is 4 tiles, and "64k limit" is 2<<16, and you landscape 3 tiles every frame, you get out of the limit in 3 frames 12:08:53 <SmatZ> peter1138: you have abilities to fix that :) including any other abuse of English in OpenTTD :) 12:09:10 <peter1138> i can't, i'm over my commit quota 12:09:12 <dihedral> SmatZ, then you have to live with a frame without terraforming 12:09:20 <peter1138> a whole frame? 12:09:21 <dihedral> which is not too hard as frames are pretty quick :-P 12:09:24 <SmatZ> :) 12:09:55 <dihedral> show me a (human) player who would complain :-P 12:09:57 <peter1138> does it affect AIs too? 12:10:07 <dihedral> i would assume so 12:10:14 * peter1138 wonders if it would upset their algorithms 12:10:19 <dihedral> :-D 12:10:43 <dihedral> how many ai's actually terraform or clear land? 12:11:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i think admiralai does some terraforming around stations 12:11:18 <peter1138> well, if the old ai is anything to judge... :D 12:11:40 <dihedral> lol 12:12:00 <dihedral> we should run admiral ai, with nasty limits and see what it does :-P 12:12:15 <roboboy> gnightish 12:12:20 <dihedral> night night 12:17:09 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 12:27:27 *** Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe86de00-46.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 12:29:31 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:40:15 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: smatz * r21734 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Change: use 'landscaping' instead of 'terraforming' in the English lang file (peter1138) 12:41:37 <SmatZ> wow, I can buy a Kendra Wilkinson Sex Tape thanks to a link at tt-forums :) 12:43:13 *** fanioz [~fanioz@114.79.56.73] has joined #openttd 12:43:24 <kamnet> She is quite hot though 12:44:26 <SmatZ> :) 12:45:16 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-84-42-201-180.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 12:45:36 <SmatZ> there are tons of free porn online, I wonder why I should pay for that one.. 12:49:20 <__ln___> and why would you want that on tape 12:49:49 <SmatZ> true :-) 12:50:13 <SmatZ> I am not even sure I have a VCR connected to TV 12:50:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fairly certain you wouldn't even get anything related to tape or porn when replying to that link :p 12:51:09 <SmatZ> :D 12:51:49 <__ln___> Eddi|zuHause: at least you didn't? 12:53:13 *** xiong [~xiong@netblock-72-25-106-190.dslextreme.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:03:59 <andythenorth> if I no longer want the patches in my queue.... 13:04:04 <andythenorth> what do I do? 13:04:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i love how a newbie with first post says "im going to develop this [already marked as impossible] patch", and the next sentence is "whoa, there are soooo many source files" 13:04:38 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:04:42 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 13:04:57 <peter1138> heh 13:05:13 * andythenorth looks 13:05:18 <andythenorth> omg, there are a *lot* of source files 13:05:35 <peter1138> i never noticed ;( 13:05:37 <SmatZ> :D 13:11:23 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:4cd0:39ca:70e2:d52a] has joined #openttd 13:11:26 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 13:12:09 <andythenorth> now got a clean patch for this: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/road-rail-crossings-11.png 13:13:27 <andythenorth> this version leaves road bits set at tram-only crossings 13:13:31 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AFA302.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:13:42 <andythenorth> I want to fix that... 13:15:43 <andythenorth> peter1138: does it harm roadtypes to get rid of this stuff: /* Always add road to the roadtypes (can't draw without it) */ 13:15:44 <andythenorth> 13:15:53 <andythenorth> in road_cmd.cpp and similar in rail_cmd.cpp 13:16:18 <andythenorth> it's the 'must be road at crossings' thing 13:17:10 <andythenorth> l583 in road_cmd.cpp 13:20:59 <andythenorth> err 13:21:09 <andythenorth> I don't mean delete the comment, I mean stop setting unnecessary road bits 13:25:53 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-84-42-201-180.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:25:57 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it really should be removed independet from roadtypes 13:26:32 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-84-42-201-180.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 13:27:57 <andythenorth> well maybe 13:28:16 <andythenorth> but peter said he'd rather not have random hacking at the code 13:29:07 <andythenorth> to me it looks like cruft 13:29:38 <andythenorth> I think I already found and tested the places where it needs to be removed 13:31:19 * andythenorth finds patching trunk a little baffling :) 13:31:24 <andythenorth> who's in charge? :o 13:31:35 <andythenorth> with newgrfs....I'm in charge :D 13:37:31 <peter1138> well 13:37:40 <peter1138> i took charge of newgrf 13:37:43 <peter1138> but 13:37:52 <andythenorth> he 13:38:33 <peter1138> Spiritual descendant from newGRF gods 13:38:33 <peter1138> Spiritual descendant from newGRF gods 13:38:34 <andythenorth> I've got another little patch that will hide road base if ROADTYPE_ROAD is not on the tile 13:38:35 <peter1138> heh 13:38:47 <andythenorth> currently all crossing tiles do get ROADTYPE_ROAD 13:38:55 <andythenorth> but I have save game where they don't :P 13:39:00 <peter1138> thing i 13:39:02 <peter1138> s 13:39:12 <peter1138> with roadtypes, ROADTYPE_ROAD doesn't mean anything 13:39:21 <andythenorth> that's interesting 13:39:24 * andythenorth to the spec 13:40:56 <andythenorth> so there'd be some other way to check? road = 0, tram = 1 13:41:23 <andythenorth> hmm 13:41:35 <andythenorth> on construction can a roadtype provide both road and tram? 13:41:43 <andythenorth> can't see any reason why not 13:42:18 <peter1138> no 13:42:28 <andythenorth> it has to be one or the other? 13:42:31 <peter1138> no 13:42:45 <andythenorth> it's a nice guessing game this :) 13:42:58 <peter1138> does a railtype provide both monorail and maglev? 13:43:02 <andythenorth> nope 13:43:05 <peter1138> well then 13:43:08 <andythenorth> there's only one railtype per tile though 13:43:19 <andythenorth> ? 13:43:32 <peter1138> right 13:43:38 <peter1138> and there can be two roadtypes per tile 13:44:45 <andythenorth> and each of those can only be road (0) or tram (1) 13:44:50 <peter1138> no 13:44:58 <andythenorth> one must be road, one must be tram? 13:45:00 <peter1138> no 13:45:02 <andythenorth> heh 13:45:34 * andythenorth runs out of silly questions :( 13:46:03 <peter1138> think of the case of a road crossing a dirt track 13:46:24 <andythenorth> that's why mr planetmaker suggested three roadtypes per tile... 13:46:33 <andythenorth> dunno if that's possible 13:46:40 <andythenorth> but only two in any given direction 13:46:48 <peter1138> probably not without making the map array bigger 13:47:34 <andythenorth> that's going to make for some interesting routing problems :) 13:47:36 <peter1138> so yeah, roadtypes could be road, tram, dirt track, scalextric... 13:47:48 <andythenorth> trams already are scalextric aren't they? 13:47:53 <peter1138> no reason to assume that you'll have road & tram 13:48:14 <andythenorth> when I say 'tram' I mean that tram vehicles have specific limitations wrt to vehicle movement 13:48:34 <andythenorth> I don't care what it looks like - but they behave differently 13:48:49 <andythenorth> but yes 13:49:17 <andythenorth> where did I start this? 13:49:33 * andythenorth remembers 13:49:47 <andythenorth> those pesky bits set at crossings 13:50:08 <andythenorth> maybe I just leave them alone for now 13:50:23 <andythenorth> they're not needed for current railtype overlay implementation of crossings - I tested 13:50:40 <andythenorth> they're only needed for the legacy version using the base set crossing sprite 13:53:46 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-4d009d8d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 13:54:12 <andythenorth> quak 13:56:05 <Belugas> hello 13:56:46 <dihedral> hello Belugas 13:56:49 <peter1138> hello sir 13:57:25 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B768F7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:57:50 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B768F7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 13:58:45 <planetmaker> did I suggest three per tile?! 14:01:27 <andythenorth> well we talked about different ways 14:01:29 <frosch123> afternoon everyone :) 14:01:33 * frosch123 almost typed morning 14:01:41 <andythenorth> if three don't fit in the map, they don't fit I guess 14:01:49 <andythenorth> it will mean a lot of bridges :P 14:06:40 *** KritiK [~Maxim@89-178-68-97.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 14:09:02 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host190-236-dynamic.4-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 14:11:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i said that. 14:11:31 <Eddi|zuHause> it should be: three road types, or two road types and a railtype on crossings 14:12:37 <Eddi|zuHause> imagine: cobble road with tram crossing a dirt road. or road with electrified tram crossing road with unelectrified tram 14:12:59 <Eddi|zuHause> or road with tram crossing road with trolleybus 14:13:17 <andythenorth> tram / non electrified tram + road is an interesting case 14:13:26 <andythenorth> bridge :P 14:13:44 <andythenorth> I would rather have three available 14:13:59 <andythenorth> but I'm just a sprite hacker, the map scares me still 14:14:16 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it needs 8 bits. 14:15:16 <andythenorth> have we got 8? 14:15:26 <Terkhen> heh, MS office suggests UNIX instead of Unix 14:15:36 <peter1138> each road type requires 8 bits 14:15:45 <peter1138> (on plain roads) 14:15:57 <peter1138> on level crossings each road type requires 4 bits 14:16:11 <Eddi|zuHause> not 5? 14:16:27 <Eddi|zuHause> 4 for the id, 1 whether road bit is present? 14:16:45 <peter1138> you can cheat and set the unused types to be the same as the primary type 14:17:01 <peter1138> a bit hacky but saves space 14:17:04 <Eddi|zuHause> hm. yes. 14:17:36 <Eddi|zuHause> but more than two roadtypes on rail crossing sounds improbable... 14:18:00 <Eddi|zuHause> you could argue for road+trolleybus+tram 14:18:44 <Rubidium> dihedral: actually, lowering the burst should have an near immediate effect on companies as well; their limits get clamped to the burst value in any case 14:19:16 <Eddi|zuHause> on the current landscape_grid.html, road has m4 (8bit) free, but i don't know how far you have used that already for roadtypes 14:20:15 <peter1138> they'll all be used 14:20:24 <peter1138> to specify the 2 road types 14:20:35 <peter1138> would need another 8 bits to add the 3rd 14:21:01 <Belugas> new map array 14:21:05 <peter1138> :( 14:21:09 <Eddi|zuHause> it's problematic, but i really think it's necessary for any kind of flexibility 14:21:21 <Rubidium> I count 4 bits for road type, 4 bits for road bits, 4 bits for owner 14:21:38 <peter1138> oh right 14:21:43 <peter1138> would need another 12 bits to add the 3rd 14:21:56 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: but we already have 3 owners per tile? 14:22:07 <Eddi|zuHause> road, tram, station? 14:22:12 <Rubidium> yes 14:22:18 <Rubidium> or road, tram, rail 14:22:32 <Eddi|zuHause> means on 3-type roads, stations would be disallowed 14:22:33 <Rubidium> but those have no 3x4 road bits, just 1 bit for the direction 14:23:04 <Rubidium> so they use way less bits than you'd need for fully flexible roads 14:25:44 <Eddi|zuHause> is there a part in the spec that defines which road types cannot occupy the same road bit? 14:26:17 <Eddi|zuHause> like, you can't have unelectrified tram along the electrified tram 14:26:22 <Rubidium> dihedral: the 64k_frames number is the number of terraforms that you may do in 64k frames (or rather 65536 frames), on average (ignoring the burst) 14:26:59 <dihedral> i did not see where that number got reset after 64k frames 14:27:19 <Rubidium> dihedral: now the limit value in company is a fixed point (>>16) value, so when that value is more than 65536 you may build 14:27:58 <Rubidium> dihedral: it isn't reset, each tick you just add 1/65536*64k_frames to the "current" limit 14:28:19 <Rubidium> up to "burst" 14:28:53 <dihedral> so a high burst and a low 64k limit, rewards those who do not use it for a long period of time 14:29:09 <Rubidium> so if burst = 10 and you may do one terraform per frame, then doing 10 terraform at time 20 means it will take till time 30 till the terraform is back at limit 14:29:32 <Rubidium> dihedral: exactly 14:29:57 <Rubidium> and low burst, high 64k limit prevents terraforming large bits at once but allows it to be done in smaller chunks 14:30:02 <dihedral> also, why is the config value for the 64k limit a << 16 value in the config file and the burst is not 14:30:39 <Rubidium> dihedral: it's the amount of tile (heights) you may terraform over 65536 frames 14:31:06 <Rubidium> so if you want an average of 1 tile height terraformed per frame, it has to be 65536, which is 1 << 16 14:31:29 <dihedral> yes, but why not let the user specify 1 in the config file rather than 65536 14:31:33 <Rubidium> it's just to "cancel" out the "per 64k frames" to a per frame in settings.h 14:31:39 <dihedral> or is that so i can also average at half a tile 14:31:47 <Belugas> peter1138: new map array = :) not :( 14:31:54 <Rubidium> @calc 74*31 14:31:54 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 2294 14:32:14 <Rubidium> then 2294 terraformed tile heights per month would be the minimum 14:32:32 <Rubidium> which is IMHO somewhat large to be really limiting in games 14:32:44 <Rubidium> @calc 65536/74 14:32:44 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 885.621621622 14:33:01 <dihedral> which also does not really impose a limit :-P 14:33:18 <Rubidium> now the limit is one terraformed tile height per 885 days, which does allow to impose some limits 14:33:19 <dihedral> but enough to stop people from flooding large maps 14:33:24 *** glevans2 [~glevans2@adsl-99-68-192-7.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:33:36 <dihedral> wait ... 14:34:06 <dihedral> oh 14:34:06 <Rubidium> @calc 2**14 14:34:06 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 16384 14:34:42 <Rubidium> so the range is from 16384 tile heights per frame to 1 tile height ever 65536 frames 14:35:14 <dihedral> but the 64k limit defaults to 64 << 16 14:35:27 <dihedral> which means 64 tiles in 885 days 14:35:35 <dihedral> tile hights 14:36:01 <dihedral> and a burst of 4096 14:36:27 <dihedral> and that burst will allow me to level quite a large area after 2.3 years 14:36:47 <dihedral> which is the time i need to get the amount of cache to actually perform such an action 14:37:38 <dihedral> so a lower burst would be better, would it not? as it would limit a single landscaping action to be put into smaller chunks 14:39:13 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, low burst is the more important limit. 14:40:41 <dihedral> so after a certain period of time the limit is clamped to the burst 14:41:27 <dihedral> using that would mean one has to way another 885 days before one can use the full burst again 14:42:47 <dihedral> Rubidium, for the sake of configuring that beast, would it not make sense to have the setting for the per_64k_frames be a decimal value? 14:44:12 <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: sure, just introduce regexp to parse a decimal value 14:44:43 *** glevans2 [~glevans2@99.58.238.188] has joined #openttd 14:46:25 <dihedral> wow - i only just realized that we have no floats in the config 14:47:45 <Rubidium> dihedral: no, 64<<16 means 64 per day, or 64*65536 per 65536 days 14:47:54 <Rubidium> also, the configuration file is decimal 14:48:05 <Rubidium> the << 16 is only for source code file 14:50:25 <dihedral> per day? i thought things were added per frame :-P 14:51:16 <Rubidium> yeah... s/day/frame/ 14:51:39 <dihedral> so 64 per frame or 64/74 per frame ^^ 14:53:00 <Rubidium> 64<<16 means 64 per frame 14:53:07 <Rubidium> but you can't use 64<<16 in the config file 14:53:17 <Rubidium> you'll have to use the decimal value in the config file 14:53:21 <Rubidium> so you'll have to use: 14:53:22 <dihedral> yes 14:53:26 <Rubidium> 64* 2**16 14:53:29 <Rubidium> @calc 64* 2**16 14:53:29 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 4194304 14:53:55 <dihedral> bu then 64 tile heights / tiles per frame is a huge value over the course of time 14:54:18 <dihedral> yet if the burst is 128, then it clamps at 2 frames 14:54:49 <Rubidium> exactly 14:55:11 <Rubidium> it's a limit; it's not a quota you must reach 14:55:29 <Rubidium> and the default limits are meant to be (almost) never reached by normal gameplay 14:55:30 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AFA302.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 14:58:07 <dihedral> but to make it somewhat more challenging, setting the 64k limit to 1 tile per day (not per frame) it will take a while until someone can do something 15:08:22 <Rubidium> then set 64k_frames to 885 15:08:33 <dihedral> heh 15:08:35 <Rubidium> @calc 65536/885/74 15:09:41 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 1.00070239731 15:10:27 <Rubidium> so it will be 1 tile every 1.0007 days ;) 15:10:35 <Rubidium> *tile height 15:10:42 <dihedral> or tiles, (clear land) 15:11:24 <dihedral> which in essense is still not a bad value 15:16:08 <Eddi|zuHause> that boils down to 1 piece of rail/road/station per day, which might be too limiting 15:16:19 <Eddi|zuHause> or is there a different weight for clearing and terraforming? 15:16:37 <Rubidium> they're somewhat unrelated 15:16:55 <Rubidium> you can limit terraforming to 1 tile a year and still clear 500 tiles a frame 15:17:32 <Eddi|zuHause> ah 15:17:37 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that makes sense 15:18:06 <dihedral> can companies start off with burst? 15:18:21 * peter1138 freezes dihedral's water pipes 15:18:27 <dihedral> lol 15:18:30 <dihedral> :-P 15:18:50 <dihedral> or a separate (configurable) start value 15:18:54 <dihedral> 0 changes nothing 15:19:31 <dihedral> but a moderate start value, and a low per_64k_frames value would compensate for a decent start, yet be a good limit 15:20:10 <Rubidium> dihedral: yes, they get the "burst" as free bonus upon inauguration 15:20:21 <dihedral> sweet :-) 15:23:10 <andythenorth> how many bits does catenary occupy? 15:24:19 <SmatZ> "none" 15:24:26 <SmatZ> it's defined in railtype 15:25:49 <andythenorth> that's the end of a cunning plan :P 15:27:04 <andythenorth> does limiting to 8 road types save any bits? 15:28:20 <andythenorth> 4 roadtypes is only 2 bits per type? 15:29:08 <SmatZ> 4 roadtypes would need only 2 bits, yes 15:29:21 <SmatZ> to identify one of them 15:29:25 <peter1138> and 8 road types would need 3 bits 15:29:55 <andythenorth> 4 isn't enough 15:30:01 <andythenorth> and 8 doesn't save enough bits 15:30:10 <peter1138> 6! 15:30:14 <peter1138> 2.5 bits :s 15:30:22 <SmatZ> :D 15:31:17 <peter1138> hmm 15:31:17 <andythenorth> grr :D 15:31:22 <peter1138> 2.58496 bits 15:31:23 <SmatZ> if there could be only 8 road types and 8 tram types, you would need only 3 bits for each 15:31:43 <peter1138> then it's not very flexible 15:31:54 <andythenorth> 8 of each? plenty flexible 15:31:58 <andythenorth> 8 in total would be enough 15:32:05 <andythenorth> I guess I don't play crazy multi-player games :P 15:32:21 <andythenorth> 8 of each is plenty 15:32:41 <SmatZ> maybe there is a bit indicating "this tile has road" and "this tile has tram" 15:32:48 <SmatZ> I think there is, actually 15:32:51 <SmatZ> or used to be... 15:32:58 <andythenorth> don't you need two bits for that? 15:33:11 <SmatZ> you only need 4 bits for road/tram bits 15:33:40 <SmatZ> m7 bits 7..6: present road types 15:33:42 <SmatZ> bit 0 normal road 15:33:43 <SmatZ> bit 1 tram 15:34:01 <SmatZ> so you can save those two types and use "getroadbits() != 0" instead 15:34:15 <SmatZ> at the cost of some performance penatly 15:35:43 <SmatZ> [16:34:36] <SmatZ> so you can save those two types <== bits 15:35:45 <SmatZ> ... 15:35:56 <SmatZ> not that it was the only typo... 15:36:29 <dihedral> you are forgiven :-P 15:38:08 <SmatZ> :) 15:39:58 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host190-236-dynamic.4-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 15:40:59 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AFA302.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:43:19 *** X-2 [~X-2@5ED662EB.cm-7-7b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 15:44:39 <andythenorth> how do two current road types + one railtype fit into a tile? 15:44:48 <andythenorth> I don't even want to ask about bridges :P 15:45:39 <peter1138> i worked it all out once... 15:45:43 <Wolf01> road + tram already have common bridges IIRC 15:53:35 <dihedral> heh - so if per_64k_frames = 0 and burst = 4096, a company can at max level that many hights in the cause of the entire game 15:54:21 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 15:54:41 <dihedral> however, i would really think it could be a good idea of connected bots to have an influence on these values on a per company basis 15:55:01 <dihedral> or via console command 15:55:30 *** ABCRic [~ABCRic@174.207.189.46.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #openttd 15:55:48 <dihedral> that way one could implement other algorithms based on e.g. the age of the company, their value, etc. 15:56:09 *** heffer [~felix@2a01:4f8:100:6fff:5054:ff:fe98:b9] has joined #openttd 15:57:29 *** heffer_ [~felix@2a01:4f8:100:6fff:5054:ff:fe98:b9] has joined #openttd 16:03:12 *** heffer [~felix@2a01:4f8:100:6fff:5054:ff:fe98:b9] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:03:48 *** heffer_ is now known as heffer 16:03:58 <Rubidium> dihedral: that's getting really complex 16:04:32 <Rubidium> as you basically need to write a load of commands to get all those things executed at the right time and such 16:06:19 <andythenorth> so if two roadtypes uses 8 bits... 16:06:27 <andythenorth> for 16 allowed types 16:06:36 <andythenorth> can't we just have 4x road and 4x tram 16:06:53 <andythenorth> two bits for road, two bits for tram 16:07:15 <andythenorth> up to three per tile, 2 bits spare for magic 16:08:37 <Eddi|zuHause> if you strictly separate road and tram, then you need to allow two each 16:09:02 <andythenorth> that's what my maths does... 16:09:03 <Eddi|zuHause> plus, you only reduced the ids, the bits and the owners still need saving 16:09:11 <andythenorth> ach 16:09:22 <andythenorth> can we make bits bigger :P 16:09:28 <andythenorth> give them spin or something 16:09:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i meant "road bits", as in the 4 directions on the tile 16:11:09 *** Mikael [~Mikael@46.32.63.243] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:11:10 *** Mikael [~Mikael@46.32.63.243] has joined #openttd 16:16:37 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.160.186] has joined #openttd 16:18:46 *** OTTDmaster [561b9bc6@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 16:18:58 <OTTDmaster> hello 16:19:34 <OTTDmaster> anyone? 16:22:42 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@i59F6D7B6.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:27:28 *** andythenorth is now known as anyone 16:27:31 <anyone> hi 16:27:50 <OTTDmaster> :P 16:28:02 <OTTDmaster> hello anyone AKA andythenorth 16:28:37 <OTTDmaster> how's your patch going? 16:29:12 <OTTDmaster> have you visited the pub recently?!? 16:31:59 <dihedral> Rubidium, why? 16:32:13 <dihedral> can i not set a limit for a company without having to do that every frame? 16:32:30 <dihedral> i.e. set the burst to x and set the per_64k_frames to 0 16:32:37 <dihedral> and tamper with the per company limit 16:32:42 <dihedral> when i see fit 16:33:16 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4d08353a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 16:33:36 <dihedral> and include those values in company update packets 16:33:40 <dihedral> and company info of course 16:33:57 <SpComb> I liked the idea of having to balance your landscaping out across raise/lower 16:34:16 <SpComb> if you lower land somewhere you have to raise it somewhere else, and vv. :) 16:34:44 <peter1138> does placing tracks count as clearing land? 16:37:14 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 16:37:37 <Eddi|zuHause> placing on previously unowned land 16:37:41 <dihedral> clearing land and landscaping are handled separately 16:38:24 <SmatZ> raising one corner clears 4 tiles, right? 16:38:30 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 16:38:47 *** anyone is now known as andythenorth 16:39:08 * OTTDmaster kicks anyone 16:39:17 <dihedral> ?? 16:39:30 * OTTDmaster kicks andythenorth 16:39:43 <Eddi|zuHause> i hope the clearing count does not count clearing clear land 16:40:12 <SpComb> is this a feature already in trunk? 16:40:21 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 16:40:21 <dihedral> yes 16:42:08 <andythenorth> roujin had a basic patch which put trails into the unused (HWAY) slot 16:42:15 <andythenorth> I guess he didn't need labels though 16:42:49 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host190-236-dynamic.4-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:43:47 <andythenorth> ugh 16:44:54 <SpComb> tsk, technical measures to fix social issues 16:45:01 <SpComb> although I guess it also goes to enforce style 16:45:19 * andythenorth ponders 16:45:28 <andythenorth> surely there's some trickery with the direction bits 16:46:03 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 16:49:26 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B768F7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:50:08 <andythenorth> if there was a way to get three roadtypes on a tile, how could they cross 16:50:12 <andythenorth> orthogonal 16:50:21 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd 16:50:28 <andythenorth> what about overlappin L shapes (best way I can describe it) 16:50:31 <andythenorth> +g 16:55:18 <SpComb> so who's got a server up with a zero terraform limit 16:55:30 *** kamnet [4cb171cd@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 16:55:38 *** reaven [547ede9d@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 16:55:56 <reaven> hey 16:56:06 <OTTDmaster> hello 16:56:46 <reaven> Im having a bit of trouble with a train network I made 16:57:02 <reaven> sometimes trains get through stations they shouldnt 16:57:16 <reaven> and I think its because the ywant to get to a nearby depot... 16:57:28 <reaven> how can I stop this? 16:57:34 <OTTDmaster> two ways 16:58:08 <ABCRic> 1. place depots better; 2. waypoints 16:58:11 <OTTDmaster> have a depot before the station or tell the train to service after the station 16:58:27 <SpComb> simple way: disable servicing (turn off breakdowns and enable the 'no servicing without breakdowns' option or somesuch) 16:58:33 <OTTDmaster> (orders) 16:59:21 <ABCRic> 3. what SpComb said (best solution of all :D) 16:59:43 *** [com]buster [~Combuster@82-171-220-59.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd 17:00:18 <reaven> you mean disabling trains breaking at all? 17:00:23 <SpComb> yes 17:00:53 <OTTDmaster> braking *down* you meaan? 17:01:04 <OTTDmaster> braking is a different thing 17:01:09 <reaven> breaking 17:01:46 <SpComb> brake, break 17:03:23 <SpComb> confounding 17:05:10 *** heffer_ [~felix@hyperion.fetzig.org] has joined #openttd 17:05:37 *** heffer [~felix@2a01:4f8:100:6fff:5054:ff:fe98:b9] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:06:08 <reaven> this is the firts somewhat complex network I made so I wasnt expecting depots to be a problem like this 17:06:08 *** heffer_ is now known as heffer 17:06:23 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 17:06:36 <SpComb> trains heading for servicing is a force to be reckoned with :P 17:06:38 <OTTDmaster> It's happened to the best of us! 17:06:41 <SpComb> if you want to use servicing, then use servicing orders 17:07:05 <dihedral> how can brakedowns be improved? 17:07:09 <reaven> yeah I guess I will have to order the servicing at precise depots 17:07:37 <OTTDmaster> do yu use servicing centres? 17:07:42 *** dageek [~dageek@11.74.155.90.in-addr.arpa] has joined #openttd 17:08:32 *** ar3kaw [~ident@87-239-75-101.internetia.net.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:09:48 <reaven> me? right now I have a depot near every station so before loading they will service 17:10:25 <OTTDmaster> You can force service it 17:10:35 <reaven> yeah I made an order 17:11:14 <OTTDmaster> http://www.transporttycoon.net/rail5 17:11:18 <reaven> but its funny because sometimes when they went to service to a depot that goes by a station they shouldnt go they even started to load cargo there... 17:11:40 <OTTDmaster> force servicing is a lot easier 17:11:58 <OTTDmaster> no order changes required 17:12:24 <SpComb> OTTDmaster: severely outdated 17:12:35 <OTTDmaster> non stop orders? 17:12:44 <OTTDmaster> got non-stop to X 17:12:53 <OTTDmaster> *go non-stop to X 17:13:19 <OTTDmaster> it still works 17:13:21 <SpComb> reaven: that's how orders work by default, trains will stop at stations 17:13:50 <reaven> yeah but they dont have an order to stop there 17:13:58 <ABCRic> dihedral: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=39518 17:14:01 <OTTDmaster> non-stop orders? 17:14:12 <SpComb> I mean, they'll stop at stations along the route between two orders 17:14:15 <reaven> they shouldnt even get to that section of the network 17:14:43 <SpComb> which is a rather silly piece of legacy imo, but I guess some people use it for long linear routes 17:14:45 <dihedral> ABCRic, i am aware of the existing approach ;-) 17:14:48 <OTTDmaster> http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Orders 17:15:08 <OTTDmaster> is that enough in date? 17:15:13 <ABCRic> dihedral: you asked how they could be improved... 17:15:16 <reaven> I made it so that a train only has to pass between the two stations he should, but since they went to the nearest depot they found... 17:15:24 <reaven> thats where the problem began 17:15:31 <dihedral> ABCRic, yeah - but i was not after any implementation 17:15:39 <dihedral> but a decent one, one that could be of interest of trunk 17:15:50 <ABCRic> still, it has some ideas :) 17:16:06 <OTTDmaster> also have you done shared orders? 17:16:17 <reaven> I will look into teh force service 17:17:04 <dihedral> ABCRic, true :-) 17:18:06 <andythenorth> because there can only be two types for any given direction, my brain says that we should be able to get all direction information into 8 bits 17:18:12 <andythenorth> but my fingers can't write down how :P 17:20:51 <reaven> I have a hard time getting a rating over 70% on industries 17:21:00 <andythenorth> hmm 17:21:08 <andythenorth> there is a way to do it 17:21:21 <andythenorth> it's probably a performance pig though 17:22:25 <reaven> I think I read on the forums you need two stations getting from the industry or something like that? 17:24:05 <fjb> reaven: Have a vehicle always waiting at the station, buy new vehicles, buy fast vehicles, build a statue. 17:25:27 <reaven> yeah I try to keep a vehicle always loading 17:25:49 <reaven> I guess I should renew most trains tho 17:27:27 <reaven> I forgot to turn off AI and they are filling the whole map with truck stealing all my coal D: 17:27:34 <andythenorth> ok 17:28:03 <andythenorth> if there are 3 roadtypes on a tile, must be 1road and 2 tram, or 2 road and 1 tram 17:28:11 <andythenorth> so for direction 17:28:14 <andythenorth> 0 0 is neither 17:28:21 <andythenorth> 1 0 is road 17:28:32 <andythenorth> 0 1 is tram 17:28:42 <andythenorth> 1 1 flips to second tram or road 17:29:01 <andythenorth> which means direction can be done in eight bits 17:29:35 <fjb> reaven: It is not your coal. 17:29:42 *** Chruker [~no@87-104-39-161-dynamic-customer.profibernet.dk] has joined #openttd 17:30:46 <andythenorth> owner I'm baffled by 17:30:59 <andythenorth> how many bits are free? :P 17:33:09 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@2.124.149.88] has joined #openttd 17:35:07 *** clum [~clum@92.9.250.32] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:37:12 *** clum [~clum@92.9.250.32] has joined #openttd 17:41:24 <andythenorth> the tile already has two lots of bits for owners of tram / road 17:41:47 <andythenorth> can't we nick the level crossing bits in this case? 17:42:04 *** HalfBit [~hb@201-27-198-253.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #openttd 17:44:36 *** ar3k [~ident@87-239-75-101.internetia.net.pl] has joined #openttd 17:46:32 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has joined #openttd 17:47:53 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host190-236-dynamic.4-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 17:52:24 *** dageek [~dageek@11.74.155.90.in-addr.arpa] has quit [Quit: dageek] 17:54:03 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host190-236-dynamic.4-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 17:55:39 <andythenorth> why does 'owner road' take 5 bits, but 'owner tram' takes 4? 17:55:39 <andythenorth> m1 bits 4..0: owner of the road type 0 (normal road) 17:55:49 <andythenorth> m3 bits 7..4: owner of road type 1 (tram); OWNER_NONE (10) is stored as OWNER_TOWN (0F) 17:56:01 *** perk11 [~perk11@178.34.115.199] has joined #openttd 17:58:48 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B733F5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 17:59:15 <Eddi|zuHause> err... stuff gets more and more weird the more you try to fix them... 17:59:48 <andythenorth> these look a bit dangerous: m5 bits 5..4: bits to disallow vehicles to go a specific direction 17:59:53 *** Xaroth [~Xaroth@86.92.135.101] has joined #openttd 17:59:57 <andythenorth> as in, they might need more bits... 18:00:41 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: what do you reckon to repurposing level crossing bits if there's no crossing? 18:01:02 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i believe that is already done 18:01:14 <andythenorth> ach 18:01:14 <frosch123> andythenorth: there are 16 possible owners for tram, but 17 for roads 18:01:23 <frosch123> towns can own road, but not tram 18:01:27 <andythenorth> towns don't build roads 18:01:29 <andythenorth> trams /s 18:01:50 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: but in the future towns may own various road types? 18:02:02 <andythenorth> so for roads, 5 bits are needed per roadtype, not 4 18:02:22 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: depends what you consider a roadtype 18:02:30 <frosch123> i did not follow your discussion btw :) 18:02:40 <andythenorth> hmm 18:02:48 <andythenorth> the crossing bits are already repurposed :( 18:03:33 <andythenorth> so for 3 roadtypes per tile, 15 bits needed just for owners :( 18:03:36 <frosch123> but my historically-grown impression about the topic is: more than two roadtypes on one tile make no sense. there are road-like roadtypes and tram-like roadtypes (wrt. reversing and such) 18:03:40 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i had a suggestion about that like a year ago. like there are road types allowed to be built by towns, road types not allowed to be built by towns, and road types which towns do not grow along 18:04:02 <frosch123> so you could have one of many road-like roadtypes on one tile and in addition one tram-like roadtype on a tile 18:04:17 <andythenorth> the issue is more interesting if you think about crossing 18:04:34 <andythenorth> e.g. electrified tram, road, non-electrified tram 18:04:38 <Eddi|zuHause> so early towns may build cobblestone road, later towns may build asphalt roads, but no town will build highway 18:04:51 <andythenorth> hmm 18:04:54 <andythenorth> the tram issue is bogus 18:05:02 <supermop> why? 18:05:06 <andythenorth> just run the electrified tram one extra tile off the junction 18:05:26 <andythenorth> the trolleybus example would be bogus as well if there was a way to say 'there is power on this tile' 18:05:42 <Eddi|zuHause> tricky gets the part: towns may "consume" a land-road, turning it into a town road, but not a highway-road 18:06:31 * andythenorth wonders if there is a way to just have two roadtypes and still have crossing flexibility 18:07:28 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: so you suggest to limit it to one road-like type and one tram-like type per tile? never two road-like types? 18:07:31 <frosch123> andythenorth: you have the same issue for rails 18:07:48 <andythenorth> I was thinking that 18:08:00 <andythenorth> but we are used to rail / monorail / maglev not overlapping 18:08:04 <frosch123> if you have a crossing of normal rail and el-rail, the crossing is el-rail, but afaik it will not draw the wires in the other direction due to the adjacent tiles 18:08:17 <Eddi|zuHause> that is correct 18:08:19 <andythenorth> some point of roads is...they are not rails 18:08:35 * andythenorth wonders if there's a way to special case for junctions 18:10:17 <andythenorth> I was counting bits that could be free, and bits needed to see if three types fit 18:10:24 <andythenorth> but I probably don't know enough to do that :P 18:10:49 *** dageek [~dageek@11.74.155.90.in-addr.arpa] has joined #openttd 18:10:58 *** bryjen [~bryjen@63.147.94.149] has joined #openttd 18:15:09 <andythenorth> having junctions check adjacent tiles is bad for 99 reasons 18:15:10 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B733F5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:16:27 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B733F5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 18:16:49 <supermop> but a tram ain't one? 18:17:21 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: but if you now limit it to one of each type, the "ID"-space doesn't need to be shared anymore, so you can reduce the IDs 18:17:49 <andythenorth> can't be one of each type 18:17:49 <Eddi|zuHause> so like 8 road-types and 8 tram-types 18:17:55 <andythenorth> that's very broken 18:18:01 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: why not? 18:18:18 <dihedral> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA_qHBzH2nw <- money well spent ^^ 18:18:22 <andythenorth> limiting number of types to 8 would be fine (or even 7 - I had an idea) 18:18:35 <andythenorth> but preventing roadtype roads crossing each is painful 18:18:41 <andythenorth> dirt tracks couldn't cross road, etc 18:18:53 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: afaik there is enough space for 16 road-types and 16 tram-types 18:18:59 <andythenorth> if we limit to 7 of each type 18:19:10 <andythenorth> then that's just three bits 18:19:12 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so you would end up with a stub of asphalt road at the end of a dirt road, which is not entirely unrealistic 18:19:30 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: sounds like you are thinking similar idea to me? 18:19:30 <frosch123> andythenorth: what is the effect of dirt roads crossing road? 18:19:36 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: 8 is also three bits (0 to 7) 18:19:46 <frosch123> imo that makes no sense, there is either dirt in the middle, or not 18:19:49 <andythenorth> you need 00 free 18:20:01 <andythenorth> to say 'no type defined' 18:20:04 <Eddi|zuHause> why? 18:20:22 <andythenorth> how else do you know a type is present? 18:20:28 <andythenorth> you have to use another bit 18:20:31 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: from the road bits 18:20:36 <andythenorth> scrap the road bits :P 18:20:55 <Eddi|zuHause> you can't scrap the road bits 18:20:57 <andythenorth> it's easy for me to say, I have no idea what I"m talking about :) 18:21:25 <andythenorth> I think direction for three types can be done with 8 bits 18:21:28 <andythenorth> 2 per direction 18:21:32 <andythenorth> but probably very slow 18:21:35 <supermop> are the light/gate sprites separate from the road sprite? 18:21:49 <andythenorth> supermop: you'd need to ask a more precise question 18:21:54 <andythenorth> what sprite? 18:22:04 <andythenorth> which set? ;) 18:22:26 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: frosch123 what if there was a special case for road roadtypes 18:22:35 <andythenorth> and all junctions are just defined as a 'super' road 18:22:40 <andythenorth> which all vehicles may travel on 18:22:49 <Eddi|zuHause> err... what? 18:22:51 <andythenorth> this is provided by the game as part of openttd.grf 18:23:10 <Eddi|zuHause> the game will only ever provide the default roads 18:23:48 <Rubidium> dihedral: because if you start with this limitation you'll have to start with other settings as well 18:23:50 *** perk11 [~perk11@178.34.115.199] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 18:24:04 <Rubidium> and you'll need to add a whole new class of settings: company settings forced by the server 18:24:11 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B733F5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:24:21 <andythenorth> if road junctions were special cased, vehicles could be told to ignore the roadtype label 18:24:32 <andythenorth> solves the crossing problem 18:24:39 <andythenorth> dunno what sprites get drawn though 18:24:39 <Rubidium> and it sounded like you wanted to manipulate the actual "current" limits of companies as well 18:24:43 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B733F5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 18:25:01 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: if road junctions were special cased, vehicles could be told to ignore the roadtype label 18:25:09 <dihedral> are they not only used server side Rubidium ? 18:25:23 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i see no sensible application of that 18:25:33 <andythenorth> rvs could drive through any road junction 18:25:35 <supermop> Ok, can we already arbitrary provide lights independent of crossing sprites and vis-versa 18:25:35 <supermop> ? 18:25:39 <Rubidium> dihedral: the checks and such happen at command execution time, i.e. at both the server and client 18:25:46 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: either your vehicles are allowed to cross the asphalt road, or they aren't 18:25:49 <andythenorth> supermop: if your doing a railtypes newgrf yes 18:26:09 <andythenorth> you're /s 18:26:24 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you can always provide such a "super-road-type" in your grf 18:26:29 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: what about we just take the first of those options every time 18:26:39 <andythenorth> vehicles are always allowed to *cross* another road type 18:26:44 <andythenorth> compatible or not 18:26:56 <Rubidium> dihedral: as you need to physically execute the terraforming to know how much you could actually terraform 18:27:06 <andythenorth> yeah, so dump trucks could cross motorways 18:27:06 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that doesn't sound right 18:27:10 <andythenorth> there are problems with it 18:27:19 <andythenorth> shall we count bits? 18:27:29 <dihedral> so when i change the setting in the middle of the game, how does this setting get sent to the clients in order for them to update their local values too? 18:27:32 <andythenorth> 9 bits already for owners 18:27:39 <andythenorth> we'd need 15 18:27:49 <Rubidium> dihedral: like any other setting is updated to the client 18:27:51 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: hÀ? 18:28:30 <dihedral> shame - i thought this was executed on the server :-P 18:28:42 <dihedral> e.g. server side only - in a mp game at least 18:28:50 <andythenorth> umm 18:28:51 <andythenorth> hmm 18:29:03 <Rubidium> dihedral: that's be way too difficult 18:29:12 <andythenorth> if road vehicles are not allowed to cross all road types, there's a significant griefing opportunity 18:29:26 <Rubidium> as you need to split up the clear/landscaping commands into multiple commands to get the right area cleared/terraformed 18:30:07 <andythenorth> all I have to do is build a highway piece across your dirt road, your dump trucks all stop 18:30:07 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host190-236-dynamic.4-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 18:30:27 <dihedral> so the clients actually have that information for every company 18:30:38 <Rubidium> yes 18:30:54 <dihedral> so they get a desync if they tamper with it 18:30:57 <Eddi|zuHause> the "road" type needs 4 road bits, 5 owner bits, 4 id bits (=13), the "tram" type needs 4 road bits, 4 owner bits, 4 id bits (=12), makes together 25. plus owner of the station makes 29, plus bit whether it's a rail crossing is 30, plus desert/grass/snow/pavement/..., plus bridge above 18:31:03 <Rubidium> dihedral: yup 18:31:13 <dihedral> shame :-P 18:31:13 <Eddi|zuHause> how many bits do we have per tile? 40? 18:31:17 <Rubidium> like they'll desync if they tamper with a lot of other things 18:31:24 <dihedral> aye 18:31:30 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you need to allow for two road types, so an extra id bit 18:31:34 <Eddi|zuHause> it's getting awfully close 18:31:50 <dihedral> i just thought i could hop in there and set limits for company 0 after it has existed for x years 18:31:58 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: station tiles and road tiles are distinct 18:32:13 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: aha. 18:32:14 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: also, stations only need to know the axis and available road types 18:32:31 <Rubidium> likewise rail crossings only need axis and available road types and the used rail type 18:32:32 <dihedral> i'll catch you guys later ;-) 18:32:34 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that's 3 bits less in the above calculations 18:32:34 <dihedral> movie night ^^ 18:33:07 <SmatZ> non-DTRS needs diagdir 18:33:10 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: yes, but they need to store other stuff, like station type or rail type 18:33:31 <Rubidium> then there's the stuff like town owner of the road, the road works, one wayness, and the "pavement" type 18:34:18 <Eddi|zuHause> "owner town" is the 5th bit of the owner, i thought 18:34:25 <Eddi|zuHause> or do you mean "which town"? 18:34:27 *** reaven [547ede9d@ircip3.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 18:34:32 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: the latter 18:35:05 <Eddi|zuHause> but isn't a town id like 16 bit? 18:35:14 <Rubidium> yes 18:36:23 <Rubidium> station could easily get a third type 18:37:06 <Rubidium> custom bridge types + a third road type is not going to work 18:37:13 <Eddi|zuHause> but then... can't there be bit-hackery so you use 1 bit for whether the owner is town or company, and then use the 16 bits for town or owner id? 18:37:16 <Rubidium> (without expanding the map array that is) 18:37:27 <Eddi|zuHause> so first owner has 17 bits 18:37:44 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: how does that help anything? 18:37:48 <andythenorth> hmm 18:38:02 <Wolf01> ooook, now I'm reinstalling VC80 so I can compile again my projects and OTTD, now I have 115GB of free space :D 18:38:11 <andythenorth> can I overbuild road where another company already has road? 18:38:25 <Rubidium> and what do you want with the extra road type? 18:38:33 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: you don't need space for a company-id if the owner is a town, and you don't need space for a town-id if the owner is a company 18:39:16 <andythenorth> Rubidium: the extra type is needed for roads that cross 18:39:20 <andythenorth> or maybe not 18:39:28 <Rubidium> but... 18:39:35 <Rubidium> then you want to add a fourth type as well 18:39:47 <Rubidium> after all, 2 road types that cross 2 other road types 18:39:53 <andythenorth> there is that logic 18:39:57 <andythenorth> but we could ignore it :P 18:40:11 <andythenorth> or we could follow it the other way, and limit to two types per tile 18:40:11 <Rubidium> but then... you can have 4 road types on a tile, so you want 4 road types crossing 4 other road types 18:40:30 <andythenorth> well no 18:40:35 <andythenorth> only two in any direction :P 18:40:49 <andythenorth> aren't the example cases for this bogus? 18:41:14 <andythenorth> trolleybus crossing road + tram 18:41:19 <Rubidium> normal road + tram + trolley bus crossing a dirt road? 18:41:42 <Wolf01> normal road should override dirt road 18:41:49 <andythenorth> eh? 18:41:50 <andythenorth> no 18:41:59 <Wolf01> you want trails? 18:42:08 <andythenorth> this is down to the sanity of newgrf authors 18:42:29 <andythenorth> anyone defining trolley bus should make it compatible with 'road' so that ordinary road vehicles also use it 18:42:34 <andythenorth> then road isn't needed on that tile 18:42:48 <andythenorth> we're just at 'trolley bus' + 'tram' 18:42:49 <andythenorth> done 18:43:12 <andythenorth> you need dirt road crossing tram + road? 18:43:13 <andythenorth> tough 18:43:17 <Rubidium> but then what to do with the catenary when a normal road crosses a trolley bus road? 18:43:30 <andythenorth> draw whichever has the higher id in the table 18:43:36 <Rubidium> should you get a junction in the catenary? 18:43:38 <andythenorth> no 18:43:40 <andythenorth> it's just a game 18:43:48 <andythenorth> or just draw both sets of catenary 18:43:50 <supermop> i think you could jut draw cat for the whole tile 18:44:11 <andythenorth> drawing n sets of catenary would be bobbins :P 18:44:14 <andythenorth> i.e. rubbish 18:44:21 <Wolf01> you'll end up with a large gray square 18:44:28 <andythenorth> could just have a bit for 'catenary is on this tile' 18:44:37 <supermop> can we get a bumpercar type of caternary? 18:44:38 <andythenorth> but I suppose that unpicks all of the 'power' stuff 18:44:39 <Rubidium> but drawing catenary on the whole tile might make people think that the trolley bus can turn at that tile while you may not want that 18:45:01 <andythenorth> if you follow that logic, you end up deciding road types is a bad idea :) 18:45:05 <andythenorth> roadtypes /s 18:45:13 <supermop> steel mesh roof over the whole road, 18:45:15 <andythenorth> is roadtypes a bad idea? 18:45:29 <supermop> bumper cars carrying one passenger each 18:45:50 <Rubidium> andythenorth: not bad, but it allows you to make a lot of "bad" decisions w.r.t. what users expect 18:46:12 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r21735 /trunk/src/lang/ (13 files): (log message trimmed) 18:46:12 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 18:46:12 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: croatian - 7 changes by VoyagerOne 18:46:12 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: dutch - 7 changes by Hyronymus, habell 18:46:12 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: english_US - 7 changes by Rubidium 18:46:13 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: estonian - 42 changes by notAbot 18:46:13 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: finnish - 7 changes by jpx_ 18:46:15 <Wolf01> I think is better to implement different diagonal railtypes on the same tile, then diagonal roads, then roadtypes ;) 18:46:21 <andythenorth> Rubidium: so does industry newgrf spec :P 18:46:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i don't understand your question. the "road" bits know they have no catenary, and the "trolley" bits know they have catenary. so you can just calculate where to draw catenary 18:46:43 <Eddi|zuHause> it's no different than current behaviour with tram on road 18:47:05 <andythenorth> wasn't he replying to the 'draw for the whole tile' suggestion? 18:47:20 <Eddi|zuHause> no, that was later ;) 18:47:30 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: not when you stick with the "draw the best" road type 18:47:38 <andythenorth> diagonal roads - not enough bits. so no diagonal roads, thanks 18:48:11 <Rubidium> i.e. road and trolley bus road are considerd "the same" class and only one of the two is allowed on a tile 18:48:28 <andythenorth> road classes ! 18:48:36 <andythenorth> nearly as much fun as cargo classes! 18:49:16 <andythenorth> the current labels spec scares me slightly as an rv set author 18:49:22 * OTTDmaster sighs 18:49:28 <Rubidium> and yes, I've thought about splitting "has catenary" into the third road type a long time ago 18:49:30 <andythenorth> I have to keep track of every label authors choose to invent 18:49:56 *** fanioz [~fanioz@114.79.56.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:50:03 <andythenorth> Rubidium: what would be the downsides of 'has catenary' being a simple bit on the tile? 18:50:07 <Rubidium> so you can mix stuff to get road with catenary and trams without catenary, but it felt a bit pointless 18:50:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i'm sorry, i can't follow you. 18:50:27 <Rubidium> andythenorth: that you still have no clue where it's meant to be 18:50:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: you seem to be jumping around arguments 18:50:57 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B6A8.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 18:51:21 <Wolf01> diesel trams? 18:51:35 <andythenorth> Rubidium: you look in each roadtype present to see if it (a) sets powered, then (b) check its direction bits? 18:51:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: yes, those exist 18:51:48 <andythenorth> add those up to 'draw catenary for these directions 18:51:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: also, horse trams 18:51:59 <Rubidium> as I would dislike to get a full "junction" of catenary to be shown for when an electrified tram crosses a normal road 18:52:24 <Wolf01> I know about horse and steam trams, but I thought they replaced all with electric ones :) 18:52:25 <Rubidium> unless you're claiming we should go for the electrified rail way of guessing what the user meant by looking at the other tiles 18:52:40 <andythenorth> no need, just look at the direction bits? :o 18:52:43 <andythenorth> I'm guessing 18:53:58 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: we're pretty much stuck with 2 types per tile? 18:54:08 <Eddi|zuHause> what i *think* that andythenorth meant was when two types clash, you draw only one of them: like when two road-types are on a tile, only draw one road surface. if two catenary types are on one tile, choose only one catenary type to draw 18:54:09 <andythenorth> I reckon we can get all the direction bits for 3 types into 8 bits 18:54:23 <andythenorth> yup 18:54:58 <peter1138> good luck with that 18:55:09 <andythenorth> for three types, each direction only needs two byes 18:55:12 <Eddi|zuHause> so when normal road and trolley road cross, draw the normal road over the trolley road, but draw trolley catenary only on the trolley road, not the normal road 18:55:13 <andythenorth> bits :o 18:55:14 * peter1138 remembers hackykid's pbs include a "track bit compression" scheme 18:55:26 <andythenorth> sounds like the thing I'm inventing :P 18:55:38 <andythenorth> 0 0 = no type in this direction 18:55:46 <peter1138> each direction? 18:55:54 <peter1138> there are 4 road bits 18:55:58 <andythenorth> yeah, it's not at all how it currently works :P 18:56:05 <andythenorth> I'm fishing 18:56:16 <andythenorth> probably won't catch any good fish 18:56:49 <andythenorth> I can't find a better word for direction 18:56:50 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: but then you'd be drawing pavement over the trolley road, wouldn't you? 18:57:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: what? 18:57:06 <andythenorth> there are 4 places where half a tile of road can be drawn 18:57:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: suppose there are 2 road bits along the X axis, and 2 trolley bits along the Y axis 18:57:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: then you draw the road as if it were all 4 road bits 18:57:50 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: you're drawing the / of the trolley bus' track, then the \ of the road (possibly with pavement) 18:57:59 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: and the catenary as if you have only the Y axis 18:58:01 *** iHephi [~Hephi@83.101.62.100] has joined #openttd 18:58:21 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: but then you need to know that the trolley bus track has the same "road" surface 18:58:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: so "road surface" is "unification over all road-like types" 18:58:57 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: no, you just take one of the road types at "random" 18:59:18 <andythenorth> you default to using the 'super' road type supplied by openttd.grf :P 18:59:29 <andythenorth> which I will draw to look nice in all places :P 18:59:39 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: but won't you be getting stuff like a dirt junction on a highway? 18:59:45 <Eddi|zuHause> so depending which type has the lower/higher ID, you choose to draw all "road" road, or all "trolley" road 19:00:00 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: yes, but that is the user's fault ;) 19:00:29 <andythenorth> we can live without the dirt junction 19:00:36 <andythenorth> there'll be a junction at the tile border :P 19:00:41 <andythenorth> it will be quite....defined 19:01:10 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i can't see a sensible way to graphically mix two road types together. they must bring own methods to "blend", which is only possible if the two types come from the same grf 19:01:30 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: but then you'd (much earlier) need tunnels and bridges to go over/under dirt roads of a competitor 19:01:57 <andythenorth> can you create junctions with competitors roads currently? 19:02:12 <andythenorth> (same would apply to town roads anyway) 19:02:15 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes, but the whole junction will be owned by the competitor 19:02:53 *** LordAro [56a754a1@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 19:03:05 * andythenorth ponders classes 19:03:09 <LordAro> evening 19:03:14 <Rubidium> so in the end I'd say you end up with N road (surface) types and M tram types (possibly with catenary) 19:03:14 <andythenorth> or a hierarchy depending on a translation table 19:03:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: but you can come up with similarly silly situations when you only allow one road type and one tram type per tile 19:03:36 <supermop> I'm off to lunch, love to hear where this discussion ends up going 19:03:38 <supermop> later 19:03:49 <SmatZ> enjoy supermop 19:04:07 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: supermop] 19:04:08 <OTTDmaster> hello 19:04:08 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: but there it's quite clear: trams will always be drawn as tracks over road (if there is road) 19:04:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: like that way, if you define "trolley" as "road with catenary", you can't build trolley/road crossings at all, the tile would be all-trolley or all-road 19:04:41 <Rubidium> yeah :( 19:05:03 <Eddi|zuHause> which brings you back to catenary-in-all-directions 19:05:24 <Eddi|zuHause> plus, you still have to solve the clash between catenary of the road type, and catenary of the tram type 19:05:30 <Rubidium> which is annoying, and it means we basically need a third set of bits/owner information for the catenary 19:05:32 <Eddi|zuHause> you can't really draw both of them either 19:05:40 <andythenorth> have the game provide catenary in the base set 19:06:03 <andythenorth> make it an option - electrify this route or not 19:06:05 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: true, you can't draw different catenaries. But we could enforce all road related catenary to be the same through the whole game 19:06:05 <Eddi|zuHause> there is catenary in the base set, but it's ugly 19:06:12 <andythenorth> ach that's just sprites 19:06:19 <andythenorth> use 4 more bits for the catenary direction 19:06:27 <andythenorth> make it a thing players can explicitly build 19:06:31 <Rubidium> but then you'll end up with shit for the elevated hanging road vehicles 19:06:42 <andythenorth> they're broken anyway 19:06:53 <andythenorth> it's a clever hack by Zephyris that's never going to work 19:07:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: afair catenary can be defined on a per-railtype basis, why disable that for roadtypes? 19:07:42 <Rubidium> which brings us, basically back, to the whole root problem: having trams 19:07:56 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:08:01 <SmatZ> no trolley-buses? :-( 19:08:10 <andythenorth> elevated routes are broken....http://tt-foundry.com/misc/elevated_routes.png 19:08:27 <Rubidium> as without having trams, and thus no catenary on roads it'd all be much easier 19:09:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: but trams were really one of the most important features missing from TTD 19:09:21 <SmatZ> pre-signals? 19:09:34 <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: even more than those 19:09:41 <SmatZ> bah 19:09:45 <SmatZ> I never missed trams :) 19:09:56 <Rubidium> I'd miss all the draggable building stuff way more than trams 19:10:01 <SmatZ> maybe that's because I am playing mostly only train games 19:10:18 <SmatZ> non-uniform stations and station joining 19:10:28 <SmatZ> (not distant join) 19:10:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't played a game without trams ever since they got introduced 19:10:32 <SmatZ> :) 19:10:41 <SmatZ> everyone has his own preferences :) 19:10:51 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host190-236-dynamic.4-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 19:10:53 <Rubidium> I barely played a game with trams 19:11:03 <Rubidium> but then, I barely played a game at all 19:11:09 <SmatZ> true :) 19:11:09 <Terkhen> they are quite fun sometimes 19:11:28 <Rubidium> the San Francisco ones are especially fun 19:11:29 <SmatZ> the last game I played was http://devs.openttd.org/~smatz/R.sav ... in 0.4.8 19:11:35 <Eddi|zuHause> they are really essential with cargodist 19:11:38 <SmatZ> then I played only #coop games :) 19:11:41 <Rubidium> when they "lose" their connection with the cateneray 19:11:42 <Eddi|zuHause> busses have so low capacity 19:12:15 <Terkhen> not only with cargodist; with large cities I need a tram network to get more passengers 19:12:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: you mean the san francisco cable cars or the san francisco trams? 19:12:27 * andythenorth thinks 19:12:44 <Eddi|zuHause> (those are different things) 19:12:58 <Terkhen> but that was until I recently discovered the metro trains 19:13:08 <andythenorth> the catenary is a distraction from the 2 types / 3 types question 19:13:14 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: the tram 19:13:20 <andythenorth> but the answer has to be 2 types? 19:13:24 <__ln___> and there are at least two kinds of trams in SF 19:13:27 <Rubidium> then thing that goes *around* the hills instead of *over* the hills 19:13:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: problem with (metro) trains is that you need to destroy half the city 19:14:02 <andythenorth> so limit of 2 roadtypes per tile 19:14:14 <Terkhen> you can do small metro stations around it and get the passengers with trams / distant stations 19:14:26 <andythenorth> but do they have to be orthogonal if it's 2 x tram / 2 x road? 19:14:30 <andythenorth> or can they be parallel 19:14:52 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host190-236-dynamic.4-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 19:15:36 <andythenorth> e.g. can I have dirt road running NE-SW and road running NE-SW 19:15:44 <andythenorth> forget the graphics, I don't care about that right now 19:15:47 <Ammler> if you changed the release procedure from branch to tags, you could add the tags to the hg repos too 19:16:24 <andythenorth> why do we need 4 bits for roadtype at all? 19:16:35 <andythenorth> nvm 19:16:43 <peter1138> heh 19:16:46 * andythenorth forgot byte / bit 19:17:15 <andythenorth> shame 19:17:34 *** fjb is now known as Guest3402 19:17:36 *** fjb [~frank@p5DDFE42A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 19:18:02 *** ABCRic [~ABCRic@174.207.189.46.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:18:08 *** clum [~clum@92.9.250.32] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:19:33 *** ABCRic [~ABCRic@158.105.103.87.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #openttd 19:20:26 *** clum [~clum@92.9.250.32] has joined #openttd 19:24:18 <andythenorth> if trams didn't exist 19:24:20 *** Guest3402 [~frank@p5DDFDFF3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:24:23 <andythenorth> how many roadtypes per tile? 19:24:33 <andythenorth> Rubidium: ^? 19:25:55 <peter1138> 10 19:25:58 <peter1138> 16! 19:26:05 <peter1138> then you can save space 19:26:08 <andythenorth> that's nice 19:26:10 <peter1138> cos you only need to store the bits :p 19:26:14 <peter1138> (road bits) 19:26:29 <andythenorth> what - they match locations in the type table? 19:26:50 <andythenorth> and how do you draw them? 19:27:22 <andythenorth> what happens if I have type A on the tile, compatible with my donkey cart 19:27:24 <peter1138> with a pencil? 19:27:39 <andythenorth> then player 2 builds type B on the tile, incompatible with my donkey cart 19:27:52 * andythenorth may have misunderstood compatibility so far 19:28:14 * andythenorth has misunderstood compatibility 19:28:30 <andythenorth> there's no 'incompatible' property? 19:28:36 <andythenorth> just an absence of compatibility? 19:29:48 <andythenorth> so no griefing opportunity / ability to fuck up routes by overbuilding some type 19:30:56 <ABCRic> no. yay :D 19:31:50 <ABCRic> wait, no ability to wreak havoc? 19:32:08 <OTTDmaster> nope 19:32:14 <ABCRic> D: 19:32:58 *** bryjen [~bryjen@63.147.94.149] has quit [Quit: Quit] 19:41:14 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #openttd 19:47:05 *** JVassie [~James@92.27.149.231] has joined #openttd 19:53:35 <DJNekkid> is it possible for a railtype newgrf to move the mono/maglev tracktypes to the bottom? 19:53:44 *** JVassie [~James@92.27.149.231] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:54:22 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd 19:55:04 <supermop> hello 19:56:33 <peter1138> DJNekkid, no 19:56:47 <peter1138> DJNekkid, a facility to reorder the list could be added 19:57:33 <andythenorth> peter1138: hows about 19:57:44 <andythenorth> *one* road roadtype and *one* tram roadtype per tile 19:57:47 <andythenorth> and that's it 19:57:52 <DJNekkid> that would be awsome... as it "splits" up the different track-speeds 19:58:06 *** JVassie [~James@92.27.149.231] has joined #openttd 19:58:19 <andythenorth> if player has a routing problem at junctions, player needs to find a better newgrf 19:58:27 <Wolf01> mmmh I can't install the microsoft windows sdk 19:58:48 <peter1138> andythenorth, what's the advantage? 19:59:08 <andythenorth> conceptually simpler? 19:59:17 <peter1138> i don't see how 19:59:22 <andythenorth> knocks on the head debates like 'what about tram + trolley bus which implies road' 19:59:27 <peter1138> you still need to store the road types and the road bits 19:59:31 <andythenorth> ok 19:59:38 <andythenorth> so if you have two roadtypes on a tile 19:59:47 <andythenorth> can they go parallel, or do they have to be orthogonal? 20:00:11 <supermop> any progress on road/tram discussion? 20:00:22 <andythenorth> nope 20:00:22 <peter1138> each gets 4 road bits 20:00:23 <Wolf01> I get -> Error 1 error C2065: 'AI_ADDRCONFIG' : undeclared identifier d:\projects\openttd\trunk\src\network\core\address.cpp 105 which means I forgot to add a library or header, but which one? 20:00:32 <andythenorth> so they can go parallelt 20:00:34 <andythenorth> -t 20:00:44 <andythenorth> hmm ok 20:00:52 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dba98ee.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 20:01:10 <DJNekkid> peter1138: is this something in the pipeline? im about to update NuTracks, but if they cant be moved im tempted to let the mag/monotypes be normal rails, and make a new one for maglev (transrapid tracks or something like that) 20:01:28 <andythenorth> can't cross that road with a tram 20:01:29 <peter1138> DJNekkid, no 20:01:32 <andythenorth> but bridges exist 20:01:57 <peter1138> ? 20:02:16 <andythenorth> if you had e.g. two road roadtypes on a tile, trams can't be built there 20:02:22 <andythenorth> but player can use a bridge 20:02:28 <supermop> DJNekkid, do you need mon/mag graphics? 20:02:31 <andythenorth> so make them use a bridge, end of story? 20:02:42 <peter1138> right 20:02:47 <supermop> i am drawing some lately, you are welcome to them 20:02:48 <andythenorth> yeah works for me 20:02:56 <andythenorth> why is this so confusing? It seems easy 20:03:05 <andythenorth> two types allowed per tile, 4 road bits per type 20:03:11 <peter1138> andythenorth, it's not, you're just trying to complicate it 20:03:22 <andythenorth> I think I had some help there :) 20:03:26 <peter1138> andythenorth, your way forces you to only ever have 1 "road" road type on a tile 20:03:39 <andythenorth> if three types per tile is simply impossible, then that's the end of that debate 20:03:51 <peter1138> on the basis that you'll always want to be able to have 1 "tram" road type 20:03:56 <andythenorth> yeah 20:04:00 <andythenorth> it's not better 20:04:05 <DJNekkid> supermop: not really, i can just reuse opengfx 20:04:10 <peter1138> correct, it's not better :) 20:04:19 <supermop> ok i am going to make everyone mad here; 20:04:20 <supermop> but 20:04:23 <peter1138> my way you can have road & tram of, course, but also road & road 20:04:36 <peter1138> of course, i don't like to think of them as road & road, cos that's silly 20:04:50 <supermop> cannot 'highway' be an overlay for road, like caternary? 20:04:52 <andythenorth> and the issue with pavements on road type A blocking road type B? Is that a non-issue? 20:04:58 <andythenorth> supermop: no 20:05:00 <andythenorth> really no 20:05:08 <andythenorth> it helps somewhat to read the code :) 20:05:12 <peter1138> andythenorth, just to confuse you, it'll be possible to have a road type that is compatible with both vehicles that travel on ROAD and TRAM 20:05:19 <andythenorth> that doesn't confuse me 20:05:23 <peter1138> same as you can make a rail type that lets everything run on it 20:05:29 *** DDR [~DDR@66.183.113.224] has joined #openttd 20:05:56 <andythenorth> is that in the current spec? http://wiki.openttd.org/Peter1138/Roadtypes 20:06:13 <andythenorth> how is a road type determined to be road / tram / both? 20:06:20 <andythenorth> by compatibility via labels? 20:06:21 <peter1138> yeah, it's the "xx" properties of action 0 feature 11 20:06:42 <peter1138> there'll be no road/tram/both 20:06:55 <peter1138> there'll be vehicles capable of running on ROAD 20:06:59 <peter1138> and vehicles capable of running on TRAM 20:07:09 <peter1138> (by caps, i'm writing it as a road type label) 20:07:13 <andythenorth> yeah 20:07:33 <andythenorth> hmm 20:07:36 * andythenorth puzzles 20:07:40 <peter1138> the road or tram *behaviour* of a road vehicle is another matter 20:07:44 <andythenorth> ok 20:07:55 <andythenorth> so that's a property for the vehicle action 0 as now? 20:08:32 <peter1138> well 20:08:37 <peter1138> it'll still be a property of the road type 20:08:46 <peter1138> but it'll apply to vehicles of that road type, rather than to the road itself 20:08:56 <andythenorth> ok 20:09:07 <andythenorth> so shall we code it? :P 20:09:19 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.0.107.57] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:09:31 <peter1138> like acceleration model setting for railtypes 20:09:38 <peter1138> clearly rails themselves don't accelerate :D 20:09:49 <andythenorth> hmm 20:09:54 <andythenorth> they probably do a bit 20:10:08 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.0.107.57] has joined #openttd 20:10:09 <andythenorth> my lego train tracks tend to move the opposite direction to the train 20:10:11 <andythenorth> (shiny floor) 20:10:35 <ABCRic> Wolf01: ws2def.h 20:11:12 <Wolf01> thank you, solved, I forgot to add the SDK resources 20:11:18 <peter1138> hehe 20:11:40 <andythenorth> do you have code that builds? 20:12:26 *** OTTDmaster [561b9bc6@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 20:13:06 <andythenorth> http://hg.openttd.org/developers/peter1138/roadtypes.hg/ seems to be empty :) 20:15:43 <Wolf01> good, head revision built without problems 20:17:05 <peter1138> heh 20:20:04 *** HalfBit [~hb@201-27-198-253.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:28:59 <fonsinchen> Rubidium: most of those trailing whitespaces are the ones patch generates on empty lines 20:29:11 <fonsinchen> They're not actually in the code 20:29:21 <fonsinchen> But there are some real ones, you're right 20:31:57 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:32:42 <Rubidium> fonsinchen: hmm, that's annoying when looking at the patches themselves :( 20:34:56 <fonsinchen> maybe you should fix your trailing-whitespace-detection to allow single whitespace on a line for that case 20:35:08 <fonsinchen> like '^ $' is OK. 20:42:11 <andythenorth> what next? :P 20:42:24 <andythenorth> I have built today's lego 20:42:46 <andythenorth> I'm bored of newgrfs 20:43:01 <andythenorth> my patch is done as much as can be done for now 20:46:37 <ABCRic> andythenorth: when all esle is done, play :D 20:46:42 <ABCRic> *else 20:46:47 <andythenorth> play what? 20:46:50 <andythenorth> Dope Wars? 20:48:03 <ABCRic> OpenTTD| 20:48:14 <ABCRic> *! 20:51:51 <andythenorth> meh 20:52:00 <andythenorth> I've played openttd once or twice 20:53:26 <Terkhen> :D 20:53:36 <Terkhen> start your third game :) 20:53:46 <andythenorth> it's not that entertaining 20:53:56 * andythenorth ventures into multiplayer 20:54:27 <andythenorth> rv-wagons? 20:55:07 <fonsinchen> I actually like using "else", even if there is a return in the "if" block if the code is structured around that alternative. 20:55:12 <fonsinchen> Makes it easier to read. 20:57:04 <Terkhen> andythenorth: what new properties and callbacks would that need? 20:57:21 <andythenorth> that is a good question 20:58:20 *** kamnet [4cb171cd@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 20:58:30 <Eddi|zuHause> [05.01.2011 20:59] <andythenorth> can they go parallel, or do they have to be orthogonal? <-- imho there needs to be a newgrf flag "incompatible with any other road type", so you can have e.g. low-speed tram rails that you can build on roads, and high-speed tram rails that you cannot put on roads 20:58:53 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I defer to peter1138 on this :P 20:59:13 <andythenorth> I worry about griefing 20:59:27 <andythenorth> I thought there'd be an 'incompatible' flag somewhere, but there isn't in the current spec 20:59:29 <fonsinchen> The sad thing about the "{" on new line is that I was using the other style when starting to write cargodist and later switched. 20:59:31 <andythenorth> maybe for a good reason 20:59:41 <andythenorth> Terkhen: I guess we look first at trains? 20:59:46 <fonsinchen> I've been looking for those for quite a while, but the code base is huge ... 20:59:59 <Terkhen> andythenorth: yes, it should mirror train behaviour as much as possible 21:00:00 <andythenorth> Terkhen there are probably some cbs like 'can wagon be attached' 21:00:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: "dirt road" needs the same flag, like "road on dirt road" or "tram on dirt road" doesn't make any sense 21:00:58 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I can't see how you'd do that without either a cb for the newgrf author, passing the label 21:01:13 <andythenorth> or an equivalent of the vehicle cargo OR / XOR class madness 21:01:20 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i mean like "incompatible with any type ever invented" 21:01:32 *** xiong [~xiong@netblock-72-25-106-218.dslextreme.com] has joined #openttd 21:01:37 <Eddi|zuHause> "incompatible" as in "may not be on the same road bit" 21:01:38 <Terkhen> andythenorth: IMO the only big difference should be "wagon can be attached" behaviour... I reckon that for train wagons the behaviour is "can be attached to any engine", whereas for rvs it should be "can only be attached to specified engines" 21:01:50 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: cb on construction 21:02:01 <andythenorth> return 'can be overbuilt' or not 21:02:17 <andythenorth> Terkhen: train wagons already check that IIRC 21:02:23 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i don't see a need for a callback, but maybe... 21:03:47 <Terkhen> hmm... or we can just make it as similar to trains at possible and let the NewGRF authors take care of not allowing stupid combinations 21:04:06 <Terkhen> there is another issue... trains allow to put more than a single engine in the same consist 21:04:23 <Terkhen> that would look quite ridiculous with many road vehicles 21:05:32 <Rubidium> fonsinchen: "easier to read" is probably quite subjective; as in your current case you could easily mistake a piece of code for being executed for both branches of the if 21:05:40 <andythenorth> Terkhen again I think that can be handled with cb 21:05:47 <andythenorth> I haven't checked though 21:05:59 * andythenorth wonders about some kind of vehicle classes for RVs 21:06:00 <Terkhen> yes, but by default the train behaviour is "allow any combination" 21:06:13 <Terkhen> what do you mean with vehicle classes? 21:06:38 <fonsinchen> Yes, for that particular case I've found a better solution without else now, but in general I like using else for clarification. 21:06:43 <andythenorth> would be a way of allowing newgrfs to tell each other how vehicles could be combined 21:06:48 <andythenorth> probably a bad idea :P 21:08:33 <fonsinchen> What is the policy with '///<' documentation of class members? End with a period or not? 21:09:33 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-4d009d8d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:10:06 <Terkhen> currently trains with no power are wagons... that would be fun with eGRVTS horse carriages 21:10:21 <andythenorth> horses are a good test case 21:10:33 <Terkhen> http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Callbacks#Can_wagon_be_attached_1D_ <--- this is the most interesting callback 21:10:34 <andythenorth> do they get built as an articulated vehicle, or do you buy n horses? 21:10:41 <andythenorth> ach, I was about to paste that one :P 21:10:49 <Terkhen> I suspect that if no callback is provided, you can attach any wagon to any train engine 21:10:55 <andythenorth> yes 21:11:05 <andythenorth> it's up to the newgrf author to do the checks 21:11:32 <Terkhen> yes, but you can't use that as default behaviour for standard road vehicles 21:11:45 <andythenorth> hmm 21:11:48 <Terkhen> nor for existing road vehicle sets, as you would break them all 21:12:05 <andythenorth> new property: can be attached to other vehicles 21:12:08 <Terkhen> therefore the default behaviour must be "I'm not a wagon and nothing can be attached to me" 21:12:08 <andythenorth> action 0 21:12:13 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B6A8.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 21:12:37 <Terkhen> in trains that's done by setting power to zero, but IMO some kind of action 0 flag would be more correct for road vehicles 21:14:01 <Terkhen> there is a lot of space in Miscellaneous Flags for road vehicles 21:14:02 <Rubidium> fonsinchen: generally with period 21:14:23 <Terkhen> hmm... or maybe a callback flag would be more appropiate 21:14:45 <andythenorth> if the cb flag isn't set, never attach 21:14:55 <andythenorth> if the cb flag is set, use the cb to decide attaching? 21:15:01 <Terkhen> yes 21:16:45 <Terkhen> what to do about "multiple engines"? IMO that is a different feature 21:18:58 <andythenorth> I'm not sure 21:19:06 <andythenorth> sometimes it's nice to have multiple properties 21:19:16 <andythenorth> sometimes it's easier to just have a cb and lots of varaction 2 21:19:55 <andythenorth> hmm 21:20:07 <andythenorth> rv acceleration is currently very tied to the lead vehicle? 21:20:14 <andythenorth> e.g. weight, power etc 21:20:23 <DJNekkid> peter1138: regarding my question earlier, could it be so easy that the list is sorted after the ID of the particular railset? 21:20:34 <DJNekkid> i mean, railtype 21:22:45 <Terkhen> only the lead vehicle is taken into account 21:23:00 <Terkhen> only the weight of the cargo is taken from the rest of the vehicle 21:23:56 <andythenorth> are there good enough reasons to have multiple rv-engines? 21:24:21 <Terkhen> IMO no 21:24:48 <andythenorth> there are a very few cases where it would be useful 21:24:51 <Terkhen> I can understand it for trains, which are very customizable, but rv-wagons should be more limited 21:26:00 <Terkhen> but my point is: it is a separate feature or should it be considered now? 21:27:20 <andythenorth> considered now 21:27:38 <andythenorth> Terkhen: :D this is a bit slow to load....but: http://vilda.alaska.edu/cgi-bin/showfile.exe?CISOROOT=/cdmg11&CISOPTR=6910 21:29:17 <Terkhen> houses as cargo? :D 21:31:26 <andythenorth> he 21:31:55 <andythenorth> given the constraints on acceleration properties, I think RVs can have one engine, and it has to be the lead 21:32:43 <Terkhen> IIRC it was like that for trains in TTD 21:32:56 <Terkhen> but I'm not sure about that 21:33:53 <andythenorth> lets do it that way, and figure out all the wagon attachment stuff 21:33:59 <andythenorth> keep the scope limited 21:34:12 <andythenorth> unless it's more work to prevent attachment 21:35:01 <ABCRic> if we're using houses as cargo, we're gonna need more than one engine! :P 21:35:45 <Terkhen> I agree 21:36:35 <andythenorth> http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Action0Trains 21:36:42 <andythenorth> prop 05 - needed? 21:36:57 <andythenorth> (for rv-wagons) - no 21:37:04 <andythenorth> 08, 09 no 21:37:09 <andythenorth> 0B - maybe? 21:37:09 <ABCRic> hmm... houses as cargo would be interesting 21:37:14 <andythenorth> 0D? 21:37:14 <Terkhen> once we have a draft of NewGRF specs, we can start the code with "empty" properties and callbacks 21:37:33 <Terkhen> 0B is already in 21:37:46 <ABCRic> we'd transport them to cities and watch the cities grow fast... 21:37:52 <Terkhen> 0D should be in too 21:37:54 <andythenorth> what does a draft look like to you? a list of props and cbs, or a description of what player should be able to do? 21:38:03 <Terkhen> ABCRic: it is called construction materials 21:38:21 <Terkhen> andythenorth: the former, but it should give you a good idea bout the latter 21:38:26 <Terkhen> s/bout/about/ 21:38:39 <andythenorth> good - we agree :) 21:39:03 <andythenorth> 1B looks...interesting 21:39:28 <ABCRic> Terkhen: http://www.dynamicarchitecture.net/ <-- actually transportable "houses", then :) 21:39:48 <Terkhen> IMO that is an additional feature 21:39:49 <andythenorth> we need to think about livery refits 21:39:56 <andythenorth> which I have never used nor understood 21:40:02 <Terkhen> but the road vehicle already has placeholder functions for that 21:40:10 <Terkhen> (see RoadVehicle::GetPoweredPartPower) 21:40:17 <Terkhen> so it should be easy to add after rv-wagons 21:40:22 <andythenorth> livery refit / livery override: http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Action3LiveryOverride 21:40:29 <Terkhen> I have never understood livery refits either 21:40:54 <Terkhen> IIRC OpenGFX+ Trains has some already, I could use that as an example to try to understand them 21:41:02 <andythenorth> I think livery refit is something else - using the cargo subtype 21:41:06 <andythenorth> or maybe not 21:41:25 <Terkhen> for me, anything more complicated than action 0 in nfo is still barely understandable 21:41:27 <andythenorth> livery over-ride would have applicability for RVs 21:41:50 <Terkhen> oh, I have seen this in the spain set 21:42:16 <andythenorth> there are much longer varaction 2 ways to do a similar thing I think. probably 21:42:36 <Terkhen> or maybe it was 2cc... I don't remember which one 21:42:56 <peter1138> hmm, i need a pathfinder 21:43:03 <peter1138> of a sort of 3d variety 21:43:11 <peter1138> although i should follow a surface 21:43:14 <peter1138> *it 21:43:23 <Terkhen> I'm starting to realize that I'll need to understand all of this in NFO to be able to code rv-wagons :P 21:43:38 <andythenorth> it does help :) 21:43:40 * Terkhen is suddenly uninterested 21:43:42 *** ABCRic [~ABCRic@158.105.103.87.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Quit: The bad thing about quit messages is that you never know how people react to them.] 21:43:46 <andythenorth> :( 21:43:48 <Terkhen> :P 21:44:05 <Terkhen> I'll have to understand it sooner or later anyways 21:44:14 * andythenorth suspects peter1138 of either (a) rivers or (b) some kind of minecraft madness 21:44:27 <andythenorth> unless roadtypes needs a pathfinder? :o 21:44:30 <Terkhen> or maybe both 21:45:16 <Terkhen> this livery refit stuff looks again like something that it is not part of the "core" feature 21:45:21 <andythenorth> it's not 21:45:25 <andythenorth> extra 21:45:46 <andythenorth> fortunately for you, I understand most of the rv nfo code 21:45:57 <Terkhen> :P 21:45:58 <andythenorth> unfortunately for me, I'm starting to understand trunk :( 21:46:30 <Terkhen> I'm in the opposite situation :) 21:46:49 <peter1138> minecraft, indeed 21:47:44 <fonsinchen> Initializers in constructors between function name and body: indent by one or two tabs? 21:49:35 <andythenorth> Terkhen: I think all of the other train action 0 props are non-relevant to rv-wagons 21:49:38 <andythenorth> I'll read cbs again 21:49:48 * Terkhen agrees 21:50:19 <andythenorth> dunno what train prop 25 does 21:51:21 <Terkhen> CB10 must be already present in some way for RVs, right? it is an extra anyways 21:52:07 <andythenorth> believe it's present (maybe since r21238) 21:52:33 <Terkhen> CB11 is an extra too 21:52:50 <andythenorth> it exists for RVs 21:53:09 <andythenorth> I'm up to cb 16 21:53:20 * Terkhen is just searching wagon 21:53:25 <andythenorth> not sure how current articulated vehicle handling might need to change 21:53:28 <andythenorth> if at all 21:53:35 <andythenorth> where's frosch? :P 21:53:48 <SmatZ> I think he was going to cook some food 21:53:52 <SmatZ> about 6 hours ago 21:53:58 <SmatZ> hope he survived it :x 21:54:03 <Terkhen> :) 21:54:06 * andythenorth sees my old friends 28 and 2F 21:54:12 <andythenorth> I have used them *a lot* 21:54:42 <andythenorth> hmm 21:54:48 <andythenorth> there might be some autoreplace issues 21:55:01 <andythenorth> depends how much train code works for rvs 21:55:14 <Terkhen> heh, I was not taking that into account at all :( 21:55:20 <peter1138> hmm 21:55:32 <peter1138> might just try the "point in direction and walk forward" method :s 21:55:37 <andythenorth> Terkhen: 1D is the only one that stands out as interesting 21:56:00 <Terkhen> indeed, I think that the initial feature should only take into account callback 1D 21:56:55 * andythenorth clones yet another openttd repo 22:00:52 *** LordAro [56a754a1@ircip3.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 22:07:15 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:07:54 <z-MaTRiX> hey-ho 22:11:45 <andythenorth> Terkhen: there are some things to read here as well: http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=VarAction2Vehicles 22:12:00 <andythenorth> but they're already available for RVs 22:12:34 <Terkhen> hmm... even DA? 22:12:56 <andythenorth> hmm 22:13:00 <andythenorth> DA I've never used 22:13:15 <andythenorth> there's no indication that it's train only 22:13:36 <Terkhen> it seems very wagon specific to me; in normal articulated vehicles the next vehicle is fixed 22:14:38 <andythenorth> I'd have to check the code I guess 22:14:48 <andythenorth> it might be one of those things that just works 22:16:49 <Terkhen> we are going to need a lot of testing cases :) 22:19:29 <andythenorth> it's a big project :) 22:20:10 <Terkhen> indeed 22:20:41 <andythenorth> is 'articulated road vehicle' a special thing? 22:20:43 <andythenorth> or rather 22:21:14 <andythenorth> are we going to be able to use current articulated vehicle consists for pathfinding etc, and just extend how they can be created? 22:23:26 *** rellig_107 [~rellig@vs1191017.vserver.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:23:31 *** iHephi [~Hephi@83.101.62.100] has quit [Quit: *poof!*] 22:24:28 <Terkhen> hmm... I'm not sure of what you mean, but for those things probably only the first vehicle is taken into account already 22:25:04 <andythenorth> I think I have the answer - rvs use articulated_vehicles.cpp 22:25:14 <andythenorth> they're not some special strange case 22:25:47 <andythenorth> bed time 22:25:52 <Terkhen> yes, everything related to articulated vehicles should work already 22:25:55 <Terkhen> good night andythenorth 22:25:57 <andythenorth> good night 22:26:01 *** Chruker [~no@87-104-39-161-dynamic-customer.profibernet.dk] has quit [] 22:26:03 <SmatZ> good night andythenorth 22:26:18 *** andythenorth [~andy@cpc9-aztw25-2-0-cust133.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #openttd [] 22:28:52 *** rellig [~rellig@vs1191017.vserver.de] has joined #openttd 22:37:08 *** ProfFrink [~proffrink@5e04acb2.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 22:43:31 *** Chillosophy [~Chillosop@ip91350749.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #openttd 22:43:34 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@2.124.149.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:43:34 *** ProfFrink is now known as Prof_Frink 22:44:16 *** Chillosophy [~Chillosop@ip91350749.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [] 22:45:24 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:52:13 <Zuu> planetmaker: Cleening up OpenTTD files sounds like a good idea ^^ 22:57:07 *** JVassie [~James@92.27.149.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:00:39 *** dageek [~dageek@11.74.155.90.in-addr.arpa] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:02:34 *** kamnet [4cb171cd@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 23:21:33 *** dageek [~dageek@11.74.155.90.in-addr.arpa] has joined #openttd 23:23:46 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B75A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:33:23 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:36:32 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:44:10 *** dageek [~dageek@11.74.155.90.in-addr.arpa] has quit [Quit: dageek] 23:45:51 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing] 23:52:25 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has left #openttd []