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00:01:51 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B784.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:02:20 *** windstrider [~windstrid@c-66-41-187-237.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:03:17 *** windstrider [~windstrid@c-66-41-187-237.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 00:09:45 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing] 00:13:27 <Wolf01> 'night all 00:13:31 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host169-234-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 00:19:44 *** DoubleYou [~jkuckartz@ppp118-209-51-18.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #openttd 00:34:05 *** ar3kaw [~ident@eci49.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 00:39:56 *** ar3k [~ident@eci49.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:40:04 *** perk11 [~perk11@sR-UN-2.izmaylovo.net] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 00:42:21 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 00:59:07 *** DanMacK [~DanMacK@bas8-london14-1279480034.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #openttd 00:59:37 *** Chillosophy [~Chillosop@ip91350749.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [] 01:03:19 * DanMacK looks at the forums and notices a crapload of bot/i mean people turning 33 01:18:25 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-81-33.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 01:19:13 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-136-200.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 01:25:21 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-48-157.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:26:32 *** JOHNSHEPARD [~JOHN-SHEP@ALyon-158-1-86-55.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 01:27:44 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.12.7.215] has quit [Quit: One day I will stop procrastinating, maybe tomorrow] 01:28:44 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:36:19 *** Nite [5472b1fc@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 01:36:25 <Nite> Hi 01:46:27 *** Nite [5472b1fc@ircip4.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 01:51:36 *** KritiK [~Maxim@89-178-166-33.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:52:40 *** DanMacK [~DanMacK@bas8-london14-1279480034.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 02:16:30 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-d9bf04c3.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us!] 02:27:38 *** supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 02:28:12 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:117e:e4a7:ac46:4f2b] has quit [Quit: bye] 02:42:34 *** DoubleYou [~jkuckartz@ppp118-209-51-18.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:44:17 *** DoubleYou [~jkuckartz@ppp118-209-16-110.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #openttd 03:18:15 *** Catarinense [~LG@189.28.181.216] has joined #openttd 03:18:55 <Catarinense> Hey there, my computer crashes when I run openttd 03:20:19 <Catarinense> I'm using 1.1.0-RC3 03:20:19 <Catarinense> right now but it also crashes when using 1.0.5 03:21:21 <Catarinense> would anyone please help me or tell me where can I find help? 03:23:01 <Eddi|zuHause> we can only help when openttd itself crashes. any other crashes are out of our reach 03:24:55 <Catarinense> well, computer crashes some seconds after I run openttd. I guess it happens because of opentdd 03:25:16 <Eddi|zuHause> what are the symptoms of this crash? 03:25:51 <Catarinense> the screen freezes and i need to restart it manually 03:26:23 <Eddi|zuHause> could be a bug in your graphics driver, or a heat problem of your computer 03:27:29 <Catarinense> I'm gonna check this 03:27:32 <Catarinense> thanks Eddi 03:35:51 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC5477.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 03:47:21 *** ecke [~ecke@188.75.128.2] has quit [Quit: more listen, more understand, more know] 03:57:41 *** Catarinense [~LG@189.28.181.216] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:01:19 *** Markavian [~Markavian@213.102.dsl.syd.iprimus.net.au] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:46:20 *** windstrider [~windstrid@c-66-41-187-237.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:04:42 *** fjb is now known as Guest1465 05:04:43 *** fjb [~frank@p5DDFEA5E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 05:11:57 *** Guest1465 [~frank@p5DDFC94D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:56:01 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B75A04.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:56:19 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B73C18.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 06:14:16 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@i59F6D4B6.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 06:16:24 <supermop> hmm just had a crash 06:21:20 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.177.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:37:00 *** andythenorth [~andy@91.125.142.2] has joined #openttd 06:43:14 <andythenorth> mornings 06:43:36 <supermop> good morning 06:51:56 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 07:11:16 *** supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: supermop] 07:41:57 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-89-176-248-169.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 07:46:28 *** Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe28dc00-181.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 08:36:13 *** perk11 [~perk11@81.17.157.195] has joined #openttd 08:47:22 <planetmaker> moin 08:47:27 *** Dreamxtreme [~Dre@92.18.110.105] has quit [Quit: Going!] 08:49:09 <andythenorth> hi planetmaker 08:54:22 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 08:54:25 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 09:03:38 * planetmaker likes the "evil.grf" ;-) 09:05:21 <planetmaker> it only disables 12 other grfs, changes all default and road vehicle traction types and the size of default houses :-P 09:05:39 <planetmaker> s/default/default rail/ 09:11:07 <Alberth> any newgrf that messes with other data than its own should be disabled 09:14:13 <andythenorth> any suggestions for how to fix this? 09:14:14 <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2361 09:14:24 <andythenorth> I could check slope data, but rivers can also be on slopes.... 09:14:29 <andythenorth> so currently I'm stumped 09:15:12 <Rubidium> Alberth: point is that NewGRFs can detect other NewGRFs and disable themselves, or disable others due to incompatability issues 09:15:13 <planetmaker> Alberth: yes, I agree 09:15:28 *** CrashPL [~Crash@46.186.33.238] has joined #openttd 09:15:37 <planetmaker> but it's not that easy. They can modify common data chunks - which is the same as disabling others in effect 09:15:54 <CrashPL> witam 09:15:57 <CrashPL> hi 09:16:36 <Alberth> hi 09:17:20 <Rubidium> not to mention some NewGRF deliberately needing to override others, e.g. "DBsetxl ECS extension pack" 09:17:22 <Alberth> Rubidium: yes they can, and it is making it quite impossible to ever get a sane addition mechanism 09:18:24 <Alberth> so perhaps they should explicit state dependencies or so? 09:18:30 <Rubidium> you could consider industry/house type pools so you can load multiple sets, but those are inherently incompatible 09:19:16 <planetmaker> hi CrashPL 09:19:17 <Alberth> having several types of industry or houses makes little sense imho 09:19:28 <planetmaker> Alberth: why not? 09:19:32 <andythenorth> they're still coupled by cargos for one thing 09:19:41 <Rubidium> thus disabling itself when detecting others isn't that bad 09:19:43 <planetmaker> two industry sets which provide different chains 09:19:53 <andythenorth> but cargos aren't pooled... 09:20:02 <planetmaker> two house sets for, say different eras, regions or whatever 09:20:18 <andythenorth> house / town pool *does* make sense in gameplay 09:20:18 <Alberth> planetmaker: good points :) 09:20:23 <andythenorth> dunno about the implementation :P 09:20:56 <Alberth> andythenorth: that should be fixable, eventually :) 09:21:17 <andythenorth> http://pastebin.com/FJE3tvDu 09:21:29 <andythenorth> ^ this is the varact 2 for north tile of fishing harbour 09:21:40 <andythenorth> I didn't write it, so don't know exactly what it does 09:21:47 <andythenorth> think it checks for water + slope 09:21:59 <andythenorth> http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=VarAction2IndustryTiles 09:22:41 <andythenorth> is it by design or accident that rivers are treated as slope? 09:23:00 <andythenorth> slope / coast /s 09:24:49 <andythenorth> issue also applies to canals :( 09:24:49 <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/1548/fishing_harbour_canal_bug.png 09:26:33 <planetmaker> same could be with pools for industry tiles, industries and similar. Possibly 09:26:38 <Rubidium> so it checks for "!ocean" instead of "coast"? 09:28:12 <andythenorth> Rubidium: I'm not sure what the check is 09:28:20 <andythenorth> peter wrote it for me ;) 09:29:08 <planetmaker> http://marcin.ttdpatch.net/sv1codec/TTD-locations.html#Landscape <-- defines 01 as 'coast or river bank' hm.... 09:31:57 *** amkoroew [~Heinz@p5B104D24.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 09:36:04 *** amkoroew1 [~Heinz@p5B10341A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:41:04 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 09:41:29 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC3010.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 09:42:24 * andythenorth is stumped :| 09:42:43 <andythenorth> also this issue I don't understand: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/1512/fishing_harbour_bug.png 09:42:56 <andythenorth> I've checked with crtl-b, the bounding boxes *look* ok 09:43:12 <andythenorth> the count of unsolvable FIRS is...not good 09:44:01 <andythenorth> ^ + 'bugs' 09:49:00 <planetmaker> andythenorth: there are bugs and bugs ;-) 09:51:21 *** Zuu_ [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 09:51:49 <andythenorth> this one is troubling 09:51:50 <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2338#change-6310 09:51:54 <andythenorth> I can't replicate it 09:51:57 <andythenorth> and it's quite serious 09:54:18 <planetmaker> hm, I played around with that the other day, too... 09:54:32 *** Zuu_ is now known as Zuu 09:55:14 <planetmaker> I also had trouble exactly replicating it. But maybe I was too unpatient. 09:55:31 <andythenorth> if the bug count increases sufficiently, can I stop supporting the openttd platform for FIRS?? :P 09:55:42 <planetmaker> mind that with a new game you need to run it for several game years (like > 5 or so) 09:56:12 <planetmaker> openttd stops to support the firs platform? :-P 09:56:24 <andythenorth> he 09:56:41 <andythenorth> testing time-dependent industry stuff is effectively impossible in the time I have 09:56:59 <andythenorth> I could do with a set of openttd instances somewhere else, logging 09:57:18 <andythenorth> similar to server games... 09:57:57 <planetmaker> andythenorth: when it comes to checking closure things: Just setup very simple test games. And leave your computer run over night. 09:58:06 <planetmaker> save the next morning and evaluate later 09:59:20 <planetmaker> For 'no closure' it should have not fewer industries than before 10:01:39 *** Dreamxtreme [~Dre@92.18.110.105] has joined #openttd 10:02:06 * Alberth ponders a newgrf test environment 10:03:15 <Alberth> hmm, order of calls matters probably, very tricky to keep in sync with the real program 10:03:22 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1CAB4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 10:05:34 <andythenorth> hmm 10:05:39 <andythenorth> a test environment would be better 10:05:47 <andythenorth> or something deterministic at least 10:06:12 <andythenorth> even a long running test game is no guarantee of correctness when random production cb or random varact 2 are being used 10:07:37 <andythenorth> I'm not sure if that's solvable 10:16:43 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has joined #openttd 10:37:19 *** ZirconiumX [561b9bc6@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 10:37:34 <ZirconiumX> hello all 10:37:54 <ZirconiumX> :/ 10:38:11 * ZirconiumX isn't sure what to make of the 'news' 10:39:00 <ZirconiumX> It would appear that the guy who has stabbed me has striked/struck(delete where appropriate) again 10:40:50 <ZirconiumX> My friends - who live down the road - reported to me yesterday that the guy slashed a ginger haired kid (why do people pick on ginger kids?) - and a black haired kid (lots of detail(!)) 10:41:45 *** Bjarte [bjarte@playing.OpenTTD.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:42:28 *** perk11 [~perk11@81.17.157.195] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 10:43:41 <Terkhen> hello 10:43:55 <ZirconiumX> hello 10:46:05 * ZirconiumX is annoyed about Libya 10:47:44 *** Bjarte [bjarte@playing.OpenTTD.no] has joined #openttd 10:48:03 *** CrashPL [~Crash@46.186.33.238] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:54:08 *** ZirconiumX [561b9bc6@ircip3.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 10:54:26 *** ZirconiumX [561b9bc6@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 11:00:31 *** andythenorth_ [~andy@cpc18-aztw25-2-0-cust185.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 11:07:00 *** andythenorth [~andy@91.125.142.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:08:52 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f4a9b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 11:14:36 <andythenorth_> opinions on town industries for FIRS.... 11:14:48 <andythenorth_> should petrol station accept food + goods (it does currently) 11:16:26 <andythenorth_> should there be some kind of 'entertainment' industry (like hotel, restaurant), accepts food + alcohol 11:16:53 <andythenorth_> could be built in town, out of town, or on water (restaurant boat) 11:17:21 <planetmaker> only on water within town ;-) 11:17:24 <andythenorth_> yes 11:17:30 <andythenorth_> and next to land 11:17:34 <planetmaker> that'd make it a rare thing - but highly desired. As easter egg 11:17:44 *** ZirconiumX [561b9bc6@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 11:17:49 <andythenorth_> would it be valid / fun to allow petrol station to build anywhere, but it must be next to road? 11:18:13 <planetmaker> should. But... don't bother. They'll nearly invariably be built near road 11:18:26 <planetmaker> except if you use a 1x1 station in a 3x3 grid 11:18:34 <andythenorth_> I was thinking of petrol station out in the middle of nowhere 11:19:01 <andythenorth_> http://image06.webshots.com/6/8/55/51/82885551hRcAjO_fs.jpg 11:19:50 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4db1893f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 11:20:34 <planetmaker> oh. I thought of them being in town. But indeed... in the middle of nowhere makes much sense and will be even more fun than only towns 11:20:58 <andythenorth_> I'll consider it 11:21:14 <andythenorth_> it should be quite rate 11:21:16 <andythenorth_> rare /s 11:21:52 <planetmaker> landscape class two 11:22:00 <planetmaker> and no need to be too rare 11:22:09 <planetmaker> most roads will anyway be near towns 11:22:45 <planetmaker> just don't care about over-building of houses, just do it, if the location fits, but don't worry, if they're not over-build 11:27:59 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.12.7.215] has joined #openttd 11:34:47 *** DoubleYou [~jkuckartz@ppp118-209-16-110.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [] 11:37:38 *** devilsadvocate_ [~quassel@109.200.19.188] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 11:38:06 *** devilsadvocate [~quassel@109.200.19.188] has joined #openttd 11:41:40 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-81-33.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 11:48:19 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:54:19 *** goblin [~goblin@dslb-088-067-068-236.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 11:57:55 *** KritiK [~Maxim@93-80-31-107.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 12:24:54 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host169-234-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 12:25:17 <Wolf01> hello 12:28:07 <Alberth> hello 12:28:14 <SmatZ> hello 12:28:23 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 12:28:27 <__ln__> hello 12:30:31 *** andythenorth_ [~andy@cpc18-aztw25-2-0-cust185.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #openttd [] 12:41:32 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:52:27 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:9d06:1b98:59c9:df5c] has joined #openttd 12:52:30 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 13:18:53 *** wito [~wito@50.84-49-246.nextgentel.com] has joined #openttd 13:19:49 <wito> If I wanted to switch around the model lifes of two wagons in a train set newGRF; how would I go about doing that? 13:20:59 *** Pikka [~chatzilla@d58-111-94-114.rdl800.qld.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 13:22:56 <Pikka> partially 13:23:43 <Wolf01> hello Pikka 13:23:59 <Pikka> hello 13:24:39 *** Aylomen [~chatzilla@DSL01.83.171.148.216.ip-pool.NEFkom.net] has joined #openttd 13:27:13 <frosch123> wito: either modify the newgrf, or code an addition-newgrf 13:28:22 <wito> The latter part seems simpler somehow 13:28:24 <wito> Is it? 13:29:10 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbc19c9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 13:29:12 <frosch123> it is at least easier wrt. licenses and compatiblitiy 13:30:21 <frosch123> anyway, for the addition-newgrf: you need to know the grfid of the original grf, and the grf-local engine id of the vehicle 13:31:11 <frosch123> depending on your knowledge of nfo or the availability of the source of the original grf, you might extract that from the source, or you might use grf2html to figure out the engine id 13:31:49 <wito> I assume I can use grf2html to figure out the grfid as well? 13:32:24 <frosch123> yes, but that is also shown by ottd in game 13:35:15 <wito> ah, ok 13:38:34 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbc19c9.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:40:15 <wito> well, that's weird 13:40:28 <wito> grf2html is giving me a No such file or directory error 13:40:59 <wito> or rather, bash is when trying to run it 13:41:10 <frosch123> if you are using windows, then just drag&drop the .grf file onto grf2html.exe in the explorer 13:42:25 <wito> using Linux 13:42:41 <wito> but booting up my virtual machine might on balance be simpler 13:42:56 <Alberth> so grf2html is not in your search path 13:43:00 <wito> no, it is. 13:43:05 <Alberth> ./grf2html ? 13:43:08 <wito> yep 13:43:28 <Alberth> sure it is bash that complains? 13:43:32 <wito> PATH=$PATH:$HOME/bin := -bash: /home/wito/bin/grf2html: No such file or directory 13:43:32 <frosch123> then just run "./grf2html path/to/newgrf.grf" 13:43:33 <wito> pretty sure 13:44:04 <wito> wito@totland:~$ ls /home/wito/bin/grf2html 13:44:13 <wito> /home/wito/bin/grf2html 13:44:18 <wito> it's there 13:44:27 <Eddi|zuHause> chmod` 13:44:27 <Alberth> is it executable? 13:44:42 <wito> -rwxr-xr-x 1 wito wito 924080 2010-05-02 19:58 bin/grf2html 13:44:44 <wito> yep 13:44:57 <Alberth> file bin/grf2html ? 13:45:11 <wito> ELF 32-bit executable 13:45:42 <Alberth> ldd bin/grf2html does not give missing libraries ? 13:46:14 <wito> ldd is trying to tell me that it's not a dynamic executable. 13:46:18 <wito> which is just plain wrong. 13:46:43 <Alberth> depends on how it was compiled 13:47:15 <wito> file is saying that is *is* dynamcially linked, tho'. 13:47:20 <wito> So one of them is wrong, obviously. 13:47:24 <Alberth> :) 13:47:31 <wito> and linux32 is giving me the same message as bash 13:47:35 <wito> No such file or directory 13:47:44 <wito> which is equally not true 13:47:57 <frosch123> maybe redownload :) 13:48:10 <Alberth> mine says "... dynamically linked (uses shared libs) ..." 13:48:17 <wito> so does mine 13:48:30 <wito> but I've booted up my VM 13:48:43 <frosch123> wito: we are all using linux here :) 13:49:19 <wito> well, I could spend all night trying to debug this, or I could just download for windows. ;) 13:49:29 <Alberth> it looks like your system does not know what to do with 32bit executables 13:49:42 <wito> Alberth: Well, that's why I tried running it using linux32 13:49:49 <wito> which worked equally poorly. 13:50:01 <Alberth> yeah, it does not make sense 13:51:30 <wito> anyway; it worked right away on my Win7 x64 VM 13:51:32 <wito> so that's good. 13:52:50 <wito> anyway, I have the generated HTML up 13:54:41 <Pikka> are we though, frosch123 ? 13:56:18 <wito> frosch123: So I have the grfid, and the two train ids; where do I go from here? 13:59:18 <frosch123> Pikka: at least everyone involved up to that point 13:59:33 <Pikka> oh :) 13:59:44 <Pikka> wito, sorry I came in late, what are you trying to do? :) 13:59:52 *** TrueBrain [~patric@145.118.72.132] has quit [Quit: stupid system] 13:59:59 <wito> trying to make a local fix to the japanese train set 14:00:01 <frosch123> wito: well, first i have to reask whether the "never expire vehicles" advanced setting is enough :p 14:00:23 <wito> frosch123: Did you ask that at any point? ;) 14:00:40 <wito> anyway; it's not. 14:00:40 <frosch123> no, but i thought it might be good thing to do nevertheless :) 14:01:40 <wito> settings, schmettings. :P 14:02:03 <frosch123> anyway, for modifying the original grf you could use the grf2html output to find the action 0 which defines the ages, decode the grf, modify that sprite and recode. 14:02:20 <frosch123> for the add-on grf you likely need to code it in plain nfo 14:02:33 <Pikka> or for creating a newgrf, you need an action0generalvariables which tells openttd which grf you want to change, then action 0s which change the vehicles 14:02:43 <frosch123> nml does not support the grfid-overrides afaik 14:03:16 <Pikka> poor old nml :) 14:03:17 <wito> grfcodec -d $GRF.grf $GRF; grfcodec -e $GRF.grf $GRF should, in theory, produce a file identical to the original, yes? 14:03:31 <frosch123> yes 14:03:58 <frosch123> Pikka: be careful, you are a nfo-liking minority in here :p 14:05:30 <Pikka> yes, I am alone in enjoying tools that can implement more than 20% of the spec. 14:06:27 <frosch123> wito: for the add-on newgrf you would need to read about action 8, action 0 feature 8 property 11, and action 0 feature 00 property 03 or 04 14:06:41 <wito> That's a lot of numbers o.o 14:06:55 <wito> I think I'll just mod the grf; wasn't planning on distrbution at any rate. 14:07:22 <frosch123> Pikka: not quite, nml supports around 60%, and it especialy supports that parts, which no nfo-coder can handle (e.g. grf parameters, action 6 and such) 14:07:42 <frosch123> so, you would be more correct to say, that plain nfo only support 80% of the specs 14:07:48 <Pikka> oh :) 14:07:54 <Pikka> well I can handle grf parameters in nfo just fine 14:07:56 <frosch123> and 60% is not much less than 80% 14:08:30 <frosch123> depends on what extent :) 14:08:32 <Pikka> and I've never encountered a situation where I've even come close to wanting to use action 6... 14:09:22 <Pikka> what extent? 14:09:58 <frosch123> the action6 part for example :p 14:10:34 <Pikka> I don't understand what's so hard about that, reading the page 14:10:59 <frosch123> of course it is not hard 14:11:28 <frosch123> who claimed that nfo would be hard? 14:11:52 <Pikka> so in what way can "no nfo-coder handle" it? 14:12:22 <Eddi|zuHause> "hard" != "complex" 14:12:27 <frosch123> nml grf tend to have a lot more parameters than nfo coded grfs, because it is much easier to add some parameter 14:12:38 <Pikka> huh? 14:12:43 <wito> YES! 14:12:47 <wito> It worked! 14:13:51 <Pikka> I can only speak for myself, of course, but my grfs tend to have the parameters they need to have... 14:14:20 <Pikka> I guess industry grfs might feasibly have more... 14:15:04 <Eddi|zuHause> nutracks supposedly has dozens of parameters 14:15:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't used it myself yet 14:17:53 <Sacro> nutracks is lovely 14:18:33 <Pikka> nut racks D; 14:23:04 * Rubidium is bored, even by the "nfo { ... }" statement to nml? Then it must be as good as NFO in all cases ;) 14:23:30 * Rubidium is even so bored that he can't be bothered to split thoughts 14:23:54 <frosch123> oh, it has inline-nfo meanwhile? 14:24:12 <Rubidium> don't know, they should just add it 14:24:22 <Rubidium> otherwise my nfo = asm, nml = c analogy won't work 14:24:34 <SmatZ> :) 14:28:10 <wito> Anyway, thanks for the help. :) 14:28:17 <wito> Catch you all on the flip side. 14:28:20 *** wito [~wito@50.84-49-246.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: wito] 14:35:07 <Yexo> <Pikka> and I've never encountered a situation where I've even come close to wanting to use action 6... <- so you've never used GRM 14:36:06 <Pikka> not in a "find available IDs and slot in there" way, no 14:36:28 <Yexo> it's almost essential for a station newgrf 14:36:41 <Yexo> at least if you don't want to duplicate some sprites too much 14:36:43 <Pikka> well, I've never made a station newgrf, so there you go :) 14:37:28 *** sllide [~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #openttd 14:37:37 <sllide> how do i run a dedicated server without the use of SDL? 14:37:48 <sllide> it keeps asking for it even tho i'm running it dedicated 14:37:55 <Yexo> did you compile yourself? 14:38:00 <Yexo> if not, you'll have to do so 14:38:52 <Ammler> the problem is not the amount of parameters, more the defaults of it, newgrfs can have dozens of parameters as long as you can use it without 14:38:59 <sllide> nope 14:39:02 <sllide> precompiled 14:39:04 <sllide> official build 14:39:22 <Ammler> like ukrs(1) has quite silly defaults :-) 14:39:52 <Pikka> it does? 14:40:30 <Ammler> well, iirc you need to set 0 3 0 to use it 14:40:48 <Pikka> oh 14:41:14 <sllide> can i use nightly then? 14:41:19 <glx> sllide: precompiled builds require SDL 14:41:30 <sllide> oh.. 14:41:50 <sllide> ill have to ask my admin to install some packages then 14:42:16 <Ammler> allide, which distro? 14:42:18 <Yexo> you could compile a dedicated-only binary on another machine 14:42:52 <Ammler> I have dedicated bins for rpm distros (suse/fedora) 14:42:57 <sllide> freebsd 14:45:25 <frosch123> the only other freebsd user here is likely fjb 14:45:55 <sllide> hmm 14:46:48 <sllide> i could just install sdl.. 14:46:55 <sllide> iirc we got access to the package manager 14:47:10 <sllide> or does sdl require X? 14:47:18 <frosch123> if you have no environment for compilation, installing sdl might be the easiest 14:47:52 <glx> SDL requires X IIRC 14:48:34 <frosch123> yeah, i doubt there is a precompiled sdl without x requirement 14:48:42 <sllide> hmm 14:48:53 <sllide> wait, i just remembered 14:49:04 <sllide> the admin installed x 14:51:17 *** TrueBrain [~patric@145.118.72.132] has joined #openttd 14:52:37 <frosch123> tb: you do not need to enter the channel when the word "admin" is mentioned. it does not necessarily refer to you :p 14:54:23 <sllide> lol 15:03:32 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:04:38 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@78-80-200-5.tmcz.cz] has joined #openttd 15:08:16 *** JOHN-SHEPARD_ [~JOHN-SHEP@ALyon-158-1-86-55.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 15:14:57 <sllide> any orther games simmilar to openttd 15:15:04 *** JOHNSHEPARD [~JOHN-SHEP@ALyon-158-1-86-55.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:15:16 <sllide> focused around money and long games 15:15:16 <__ln__> Transport Tycoon Deluxe 15:15:29 <sllide> -.- 15:16:20 <Markk> SimCity 3k and 4 15:19:49 <frosch123> sllide: simutrans 15:20:05 <Eddi|zuHause> is transport empire still alive? 15:20:07 <frosch123> everyone playing transport games either plays openttd or simutrans :) 15:20:17 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: was it ever? 15:20:23 <sllide> ahh 15:20:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know 15:20:40 <sllide> simutrans has a linux server? 15:20:47 <frosch123> no idea 15:20:58 <sllide> i want to host a linux server for a very long game 15:21:05 <frosch123> hmm, but yes, maybe they are not that mulitplayerish 15:21:34 <Eddi|zuHause> long multiplayer games are only sensible with people you know 15:22:22 <Markk> I've played on the same map of Minecraft since august 15:22:32 <sllide> same 15:23:06 <sllide> but i'm looking for a game that goes on when your not online 15:23:15 <sllide> like those odd browser games 15:23:17 <Markk> Minecraft? 15:23:25 <sllide> involving around you 15:23:27 <sllide> not the world 15:23:33 <Markk> ah 15:26:14 <Eddi|zuHause> openttd needs too much micromanagement to sensibly let your company run without attention 15:36:32 *** ar3kaw [~ident@eci49.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:36:57 *** ar3k [~ident@eci49.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 15:36:59 *** ar3k is now known as ar3kaw 15:52:40 *** _goblin_ [~goblin@dslb-088-065-225-254.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 15:52:50 <sllide> what about some slow paced game involved around fighting/ 15:52:54 <sllide> something like tribal wars 15:54:20 *** goblin [~goblin@dslb-088-067-068-236.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:56:25 *** Pikka [~chatzilla@d58-111-94-114.rdl800.qld.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.15/20110303024726]] 15:56:54 *** supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 15:58:47 <supermop> hello 16:01:59 <SmatZ> hello supermop 16:02:49 *** Chillosophy [~Chillosop@ip91350749.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #openttd 16:02:49 *** Chillosophy [~Chillosop@ip91350749.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [] 16:10:25 <supermop> how is it going? 16:11:05 <Eddi|zuHause> this way --> 16:16:04 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [] 16:18:42 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 16:36:47 <fjb> sllide: SDL without X is possible on FreeBSD if you install from the port instead of a precompiled package. 16:37:44 <sllide> ah 16:39:23 <fjb> But I never tested it. OpenTTD compiles right out of the box on FreeBSD, just use gmake instead of make. 16:46:14 <sllide> ill try 16:47:44 <sllide> i did find something else while waiting 16:47:44 <sllide> http://sourceforge.net/projects/arianne/ 16:47:46 <sllide> it looks funny 16:51:15 <Eddi|zuHause> wait... multi-player packman? :p 16:56:31 <SmatZ> pacman ;) 16:56:37 <SmatZ> I want to play as the ghost 16:56:44 <confound> ghosts got nerfed in the last patch 16:56:50 <SmatZ> hehe 16:57:31 *** windstrider [~windstrid@c-66-41-187-237.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 17:00:20 <Eddi|zuHause> 18:00... time for prognosis 17:00:56 <Eddi|zuHause> FDP 3.5%, NPD 4.5%... that looks great ;) 17:01:49 <fjb> But NPD 4.5% is still way too much. 17:03:09 <Eddi|zuHause> CDU lost ~3%, Green gained ~3%, FDP lost ~3%, SPD and Left about unchanged 17:03:52 <Eddi|zuHause> current CDU+SPD government likely to continue, but SPD+Linke is also possible 17:04:48 <fjb> SPD + Linke will never happen. 17:04:50 <Eddi|zuHause> FDP goes out of parliament, Green will join after long abstinence 17:04:59 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: you sure? 17:05:11 <frosch123> it's east after all 17:05:23 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: Sure for Sachsen-Anhalt. 17:09:51 <Eddi|zuHause> SPD says "we don't continue the coalition for the coalition's sake, but we want to talk about continuing for content's sake", and wants to talk to both sides. so it isn't so "sure" as you paint it 17:12:21 <fjb> It is the same as 5 years ago. 17:12:41 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but it is not 5 years ago. 17:13:26 <fjb> SPD is talking left and acting right (political sense, not doing it right). 17:14:12 <Eddi|zuHause> the most likely cause for failing the left coalition will be the question for ministerpresident 17:19:19 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 17:30:34 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@78-80-200-5.tmcz.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:38:10 *** andythenorth [~andy@91.125.142.2] has joined #openttd 17:50:32 *** JOHNSHEPARD [~JOHN-SHEP@ALyon-158-1-86-55.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 17:50:52 *** JOHNSHEPARD [~JOHN-SHEP@ALyon-158-1-86-55.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 17:51:07 *** JOHNSHEPARD [~JOHN-SHEP@ALyon-158-1-86-55.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 17:52:48 *** Ruudjah [~opera@86.93.109.194] has joined #openttd 17:53:54 <Yexo> TrueBrain: the wiki is _very_ slow again 17:55:58 <Rubidium> probably someone is triggering a (php) page that requires an expensive SQL query 17:56:32 <Rubidium> I've tried some tricks to make the php stuff faster, but it only made it slower 17:56:41 <Rubidium> (tricks as in use accelerators) 17:57:06 <Rubidium> no idea why it failed exactly, though it might very well be lack of memory 17:57:27 *** JOHN-SHEPARD_ [~JOHN-SHEP@ALyon-158-1-86-55.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:57:44 * avdg wonders if the wiki is using apc or any other caching method 17:57:50 <Yexo> that could even be me. Would it be hard to find out which page(s) is/are problematic? 17:58:12 <Rubidium> Yexo: no clue how to trace that reliably 17:58:30 <Rubidium> avdg: apc made it worse, it uses memcache 18:02:17 <avdg> so there is really nothing that caches the bytecode then? 18:04:40 <Rubidium> not that I'm aware of 18:06:08 *** Chillosophy [~Chillosop@ip91350749.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #openttd 18:14:18 <Ruudjah> Is there a way to let trains behave the same on different signal types when the network is changed? 18:14:57 <Ruudjah> The simple one-way, one-way, two-way signals behave much better compared to the most right signal in the signal toolbox 18:15:30 <Yexo> so just build only those signals? 18:16:01 <Ruudjah> e.g. make single line, put two trains on it, when they almost crash quickly make a double track 18:16:23 <Ruudjah> when train 1 comes back and train2 goes to destination 18:17:04 <Ruudjah> when the double track is in place, if using the signaltype most right of toolbox trains have still a route to the wrong way 18:17:43 <Ruudjah> they will stop when they find signal is for other way, and turnaround instead of just taking the correct track which happens with "classic" signals 18:17:56 <Alberth> yes, they allocate a track, and follow it until the next signal 18:18:11 <Ruudjah> The rightmost signals in toolbox are better because much less clicks 18:18:30 <Alberth> ? 18:18:49 <Yexo> those "rightmost signals" are called "path signals", as opposed to "block signals" which you seem to call "classic signals" 18:18:56 <Ruudjah> ok 18:19:02 <Alberth> oh no double signal case 18:19:07 <Ruudjah> block vs path then, thanks for definition 18:19:19 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-81-33.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 18:19:28 <Alberth> but that is just a single click 18:19:38 <Ruudjah> pathsignals only require two types, block signals three types and also require one more click when setting them 18:20:02 <Ruudjah> also a misclick adds two more clicks with blocksignals 18:20:14 <Alberth> you do know you can set them along a whole line as long as it does not branch? 18:20:18 *** ZirconiumX [561b9bc6@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 18:20:21 <Ruudjah> yes, with ctrl 18:20:31 <Ruudjah> still blocksignals require more clicks 18:20:32 *** _goblin_ [~goblin@dslb-088-065-225-254.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:21:04 *** goblin [~goblin@dslb-088-065-225-254.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 18:21:10 <Ruudjah> that's the beauty of path signals, make line, add two signals, ctrl+click, done 18:21:18 <Alberth> yeah, somewhat although I never considered that a problem 18:21:22 <Ruudjah> with block you need presignals 18:22:16 <Alberth> depends somewhat on your style of signalling, but possibly yes 18:22:46 <Ruudjah> so, is there a way to let path signals behave same as block signals when changing network? 18:23:26 <Ruudjah> when network changes, the train on path signal track recalcs path anyways 18:23:34 <Ruudjah> it just picks the wrong path 18:23:35 <Alberth> no, they work in a different way, path signals really allocate a track before hand 18:23:51 <Alberth> that's why you can have several trains in the same block 18:23:59 <Ruudjah> but when network changes, they still recalc path 18:24:15 <Ruudjah> the path recalc, i assume, can be different? 18:24:18 <Alberth> if you don't want that, you could temporary switch to block signals 18:24:23 <Yexo> I'm not sure they do, I think they only lose the reservation after the first wrong signal 18:24:39 <Ruudjah> you can see they do 18:24:46 <Alberth> Ruudjah: but when network changes, they still recalc path <-- they don't until the next signal, or they find a broken path 18:24:56 <Ruudjah> right 18:25:10 <Ruudjah> but then there are two paths, why does it always pick the wrong path? 18:25:43 <Ruudjah> because the double track part's "to dest" line was the same as the before-double-track line? 18:25:51 <Alberth> only if you added the 'right' one after it allocated the 'wrong' one. 18:26:00 <Ruudjah> so train coming back only has their path cut off, instead of recalc 18:26:25 <Ruudjah> the path cut off at position where pathsignal resides on the "wrong" track 18:27:03 <Ruudjah> if that's true, the train doesnt recalc path but cuts off old path 18:27:19 <Ruudjah> which makes sense to me 18:28:02 <Ruudjah> "I think they only lose the reservation after the first wrong signal" 18:28:03 <Ruudjah> ^^ 18:28:25 <Ruudjah> in other words: they cut off old path at "first wrong signal" 18:28:32 <Alberth> turn on 'show reserved track' in the advanced settings, and see for yourself what track they claim when 18:28:38 <Ruudjah> I do 18:28:42 <Yexo> sorry for my lack of comments, but I'm still not sure if I understand your problem correctly so I'd rather not add to the confusion 18:28:49 <Ruudjah> and its exactly like we say here 18:29:10 <Alberth> I'd hope so :) 18:29:10 <Ruudjah> Yexo: simple described situation: 18:29:27 <Ruudjah> I start game at coal mine, and pick some power plant 18:29:46 <Ruudjah> make station, add train to load, make single line to station at dropoff station at power plant 18:30:21 <Ruudjah> train1 comes in, generates money for train2, which is bought immediately at load, click --> ignore signals 18:30:26 <Ruudjah> now two trains on one line 18:30:37 <Ruudjah> train2 loads, starts going to power plant 18:30:43 <Alberth> bad idea in general :) 18:30:46 <Rubidium> ignore signals == signal state is forcefully screwed 18:30:49 <Ruudjah> somwhere in the middle, those trains will crash 18:31:24 <Ruudjah> just before that happens, using the 10K you saved you make a double track 18:31:30 *** ZirconiumX [561b9bc6@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 18:31:43 <Ruudjah> you add four signals, both at each part of track 18:32:05 <Ruudjah> when using path signals, one train won't pick correct entrance of double track 18:32:33 <Ruudjah> this seemingly depends on _what line in double track is added_ 18:32:56 <avdg> the wiki is really slowly :/ 18:32:58 <Rubidium> when a train has reserved a path it won't change it, unless you turn it around 18:33:05 <Ruudjah> e.g. add line back, the train coming back wants to enter the go-to line, not the go-back line of the double track 18:33:15 <Ruudjah> and vice versa 18:33:28 <Ruudjah> blocks signals do not have this problkem 18:33:30 <Rubidium> so it will happily go into the wrong "branch" because it already reserved a path into the wrong branch 18:33:36 <Ruudjah> xctly 18:34:04 <Rubidium> and that's precisely what the path signals are meant to do 18:34:10 <Ruudjah> now, I want to use path signals while maintaining the "block signal" behaviour 18:34:16 <Rubidium> you can't 18:34:45 <Rubidium> as it might decide to take another path while in the section and go through another reservation or something 18:34:50 <Ruudjah> but at some point, the train "knows" the track became different 18:35:01 <Rubidium> it doesn't 18:35:05 <Ruudjah> it must 18:35:13 <Ruudjah> because the reserved track is changed 18:35:29 <Rubidium> that's because you messed with a signal 18:35:33 <Ruudjah> sure 18:35:40 <Ruudjah> still, it's reserved path is changed 18:35:58 <Rubidium> because you remove the safe waiting point 18:36:04 <Ruudjah> sure 18:36:12 <Ruudjah> huh 18:36:14 <Ruudjah> no 18:36:30 <Ruudjah> i dont remove anything 18:36:44 <Ruudjah> I just add a line next to existing line with 4 signals 18:37:00 <Rubidium> ergo: you remove the safe waiting point 18:37:01 *** ar3k [~ident@ebw195.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 18:37:28 <Ruudjah> where was the "dsafe waiting point"? 18:37:43 <Rubidium> at the other station 18:37:50 <Rubidium> (due to ignoring signals) 18:37:59 <Rubidium> or at least as far as it could reserve a path 18:39:02 <Ruudjah> but when I put signals, it )_still_ changes its reserved path 18:39:36 <Ruudjah> at that exact moment, it should be possible to *do something* such that it can allocate the "correct" path? 18:40:10 <Ruudjah> sure it's an edgecase 18:40:20 <Ruudjah> but still feels "buggy" 18:40:27 <Rubidium> an edge case due to ignoring signals, thus not important 18:40:35 <Ruudjah> no 18:40:45 <Ruudjah> that's anayzing the situation too lightly 18:40:46 <Rubidium> as such an edge case undoubtedly breaks normal behaviour 18:41:24 <Ruudjah> since there is a part of the track that's now double track, the behaviour caused is not solely the responsibility of the ignore signals 18:42:03 <Rubidium> no, also due to removing safe waiting points (or at least making them inaccessible) 18:42:07 <Ruudjah> the undesired situation is caused by both: the "ignore signals" part, and the "add doubletrack" part 18:43:26 <Rubidium> the problem with ignoring signals is that the vehicles will (likely) share their reserved path, which means unreserving does all kinds of odd stuff 18:43:49 <Rubidium> and likewise does trying to find the "right" train 18:44:01 <Rubidium> as it'll only find one train per reserved path 18:44:02 <Ruudjah> right 18:44:25 *** ar3kaw [~ident@eci49.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:44:29 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:44:49 <Ruudjah> but in above situation, the "ignore signals" state is "gone" when the double track is added 18:45:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r22265 /trunk/src/lang/unfinished/ (basque.txt frisian.txt): 18:45:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 18:45:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: basque - 8 changes by Thadah 18:45:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frisian - 71 changes by gjannema 18:45:37 <Rubidium> then it must be achievable when signals are not ignored, and you seem to be reiterating that ignoring signals is an important step 18:46:00 <sllide> is there a chance of new gameplay elements getting made? 18:46:30 <Ruudjah> Rubidium: Indeed, it';s achievable when on signals are ignored 18:46:31 <Rubidium> there's always a chance (or am I too literal?) 18:47:02 <Ruudjah> The path being changed surely is a case which happens almost never, right? 18:47:17 <Ruudjah> usually trains will find a path, then ride it, find next path 18:47:27 <sllide> neat 18:47:29 <Rubidium> it happens only when messing with the signals 18:47:37 <sllide> i'm looking forward to something new 18:47:42 <Ruudjah> only very rare trains find path, ride it, meanwhile the path changes somehow 18:48:16 <Rubidium> and as always, messing with signals when a train is running in it is not guaranteed to give the right result 18:48:49 <Ruudjah> So the routine fired when the path is changed, under the condition that a "path signal train" uses the path, is very rare and therefore instead of "cutting off" the path, can be changed to "recalc path"? 18:49:25 <Rubidium> neither does the vehicle repathfind when it's running along its reservation due to the exponentional costs O(n^2) of checking whether it's crossing itself or another path 18:49:39 <Ruudjah> (ergo: edge case which implementation for a possible fix won't affect the code of the usual cases) 18:50:43 <Ruudjah> I always had exactly the result I "predicted" when using block signals 18:50:52 <Ruudjah> without any known exception 18:51:36 <Ruudjah> "neither does the vehicle repathfind when it's running along its reservation due to the exponentional costs O(n^2) of checking whether it's crossing itself or another path" --> right, it simply follows reserved track, correct? 18:51:55 <Rubidium> yes 18:51:55 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 18:52:26 <Ruudjah> the expensive recalc path operation only is performed under rare circumstances, so the cost should not affect performance 18:52:51 <Rubidium> but if it recalculates paths then, it should under normal circumstances as well 18:53:13 <Ruudjah> under normal circumstances, the track isnt changed 18:53:15 <Alberth> sllide: you tried all the newgrfs already? 18:53:16 <Rubidium> in any case, I won't touch the behaviour of path signals 18:53:49 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #openttd 18:53:50 <sllide> yup 18:53:58 <sllide> well, most of them 18:54:11 <Ruudjah> this code is to be found in /yapf, no? 18:54:19 <Eddi|zuHause> Ruudjah: probably not 18:54:27 <Rubidium> sadly enough it already grew way too complex and with way too many edge cases for my taste. Yay for people not liking the simple version... 18:55:11 <Rubidium> though, I guess there are about a dozen or so files that have to do with path signals' behaviour 18:55:37 <Eddi|zuHause> Ruudjah: what Rubidium is trying to say: present a test-savegame where you didn't force a train through signal. only then we can discuss possible solution 18:55:43 <Ruudjah> My coders mantra is: ginourmous amounts of code is fine, presuming it's documented/written such that it's ;learning curve is low. 18:56:19 <Ruudjah> I work with forcnig trains ignoreing signal like 10-20% of time spend in games 18:56:30 <Eddi|zuHause> Ruudjah: that's irrelevant. 18:56:44 <Ruudjah> So, "fixing" this "issue" would be very nice for me 18:57:21 <Rubidium> path signals are inherintly complex, and for all corner cases you'll have to look through the source; it's not documented in one place as that would be out-of-date in any case 18:58:46 <Ruudjah> I like to visualize knowledge in documentation areas, so if there's a way to add images to the code, I can surely put in some cents 18:59:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Ruudjah: i really didn't understand the actual problem, probably because you explained it poorly. but i think what you want is in CmdPlaceSignal (may be called differently) to check whether there is a path reservation, and recalculate path of all trains sharing this path (which is difficult to impossible to find out, if you have forced a train through a signal) 19:00:08 <Ruudjah> that would be a second pointer, thanks 19:00:32 <Ruudjah> does source of openttd contain images at all? 19:00:45 <Eddi|zuHause> only the ones in the docs/ directory 19:01:54 <Ruudjah> right, but is there a way to add images into comments? 19:02:46 <Eddi|zuHause> depends on what image you mean 19:02:52 <Ruudjah> a png 19:03:38 <Eddi|zuHause> you can add a comment /* see xx.png */ or do you mean some doxygen thing? 19:04:14 <Ruudjah> latter 19:04:37 <Eddi|zuHause> that i have no idea 19:04:39 <Ruudjah> so ide's/docgen's show 19:11:28 <Alberth> doxygen also generates some images (inheritance thingies iirc) 19:12:33 <Ruudjah> with dotviz, yes 19:12:59 <Alberth> http://www.stack.nl/~dimitri/doxygen/manual.html 19:13:07 <Ruudjah> I bloat classes with hard to understand algo's with lots of images 19:13:56 <Ruudjah> sometimes add javascript stuff, completely with animations etc 19:14:35 <Alberth> pretty sure we don't need it that detailed 19:15:19 <Ruudjah> untill you see some of the generated docs ;) 19:15:30 <Ruudjah> lemme see if there's some OSS example i can link to 19:16:25 <Ruudjah> Hm, one fork waiting for psuh to master, other not yet authorized to be made OSS 19:16:53 <Alberth> somebody reading pathfinding code should already understand path finding as concept 19:17:11 <Alberth> but more docs in the details are always welcome 19:17:14 <Ruudjah> and understand C/C++ 19:17:21 <Ruudjah> and know how to use code editor 19:17:33 <Ruudjah> knwo how to use a pc 19:18:08 <Alberth> you are welcome to explain that too, but it won't be added to openttd docs :p 19:20:02 * andythenorth proposes some kind of algorithm for 'please make it an advanced option' 19:20:08 <andythenorth> a bit like a sine wave perhaps 19:20:29 <andythenorth> first request automatically applies -infinity to the chances of it being implemented 19:21:39 *** MrSieb [~01Mr@chello062178128065.5.13.vie.surfer.at] has joined #openttd 19:21:42 *** enr1x [~kiike@62.57.224.180.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #openttd 19:21:43 <andythenorth> or something like: chance of implementation = 1 - (1/n^2) where n = number of requests 19:22:01 <andythenorth> and for sufficiently close to n, it's allowed 19:22:13 <andythenorth> every advanced setting should require at least one kitten to die 19:23:17 * andythenorth has stumbled into some 'requests' on fs 19:23:25 * andythenorth will now go away do something useful 19:23:32 <Ruudjah> whats the problem with them? 19:23:45 <Alberth> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=49413 I was reading this :) 19:24:23 <Alberth> Ruudjah: we have too many 19:24:51 <andythenorth> variation is bad 19:25:02 <andythenorth> generally 19:25:06 <andythenorth> not universally 19:25:17 <Alberth> andythenorth: wandering around there is dangerous :p you find may all kind of weird things there 19:25:44 <Ruudjah> I just built a complete settings engine. I like settings. Lots of them. User requests -> ok, make patch, add setting 19:26:09 <andythenorth> 'an advanced option' mostly means 'I want to avoid making a decision because I shirk social conflict / lack the taste to decide which of the n options is more crappy' 19:26:21 * andythenorth does not shirk conflict 19:26:30 * andythenorth does not claim taste 19:27:07 <Ruudjah> social conflict because of no setting -> add setting, solved 19:27:41 <andythenorth> heh 19:27:48 <andythenorth> well I hope you kill a kitten each time 19:28:05 <Ruudjah> but usually settings are just meta instead of real settings, so it doesnt affect any code. 19:28:48 <Ruudjah> e.g. settings with "allowed" or "can" or "enable" in their name 19:28:55 <Eddi|zuHause> political decisions like adding/removing advanced settings are a matter of loud minorities 19:29:27 <Ruudjah> I don't make em political, i reduce them to technicalities 19:29:28 <Eddi|zuHause> the loudest minority is usually the developers ;) 19:29:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Ruudjah: the technicality is that we tend to have too many settings 19:30:03 <Ruudjah> then you need a settings engine 19:30:17 <Ruudjah> "settings engine" 19:30:19 <Eddi|zuHause> we have a settings engine 19:30:45 <Alberth> what does it do? 19:31:21 <Alberth> a game engine I can understand, but an engine for settings? 19:31:52 <Ruudjah> remove "meta settings code" from classes and put it where they belong 19:32:31 * andythenorth doesn't understand but is intrigued 19:32:44 <Ruudjah> some kind of meta-model for settings instantly implements all the "meta settings 19:32:58 <Ruudjah> so you only need to worry about the settings really affecting code 19:33:06 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean like an ini file which gathers meta-data about settings? 19:34:06 <Ruudjah> no 19:34:44 <Ruudjah> an example (YMMV on different codebases) seeing features as first class citizens in the system, and add property "enabled" 19:35:20 <Ruudjah> then there's probably some class initializing them, and ignoring the disabled ones 19:35:34 <Ruudjah> ergo: no code for meta settings stuff 19:36:27 *** Devroush [~dennis@ip-83-134-181-8.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #openttd 19:36:40 <Ruudjah> afaik when last diggin into openttd code, there was no such thing as an abstracted setting/feature 19:38:05 <Alberth> http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/browser/trunk/src/settings_internal.h#L62 the setting description 19:41:56 <Ruudjah> Seems like a onesizefitsall class for settings 19:43:32 * Alberth nods, very useful for making an array of these things 19:44:48 <Ruudjah> In another java game impl, I did not care about class bloat (openttd seems very, very concerned about this, so prolly not good idea for ottd), and just made an interface Setting, and then make concrete class for every setting 19:44:49 *** perm [4c04d383@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 19:45:29 <perm> so I just went from .7 to the current rc3... when did food change to goods? and did fruit get dropped? 19:45:40 <Ruudjah> then pass factory for UI instantiation 19:46:26 <andythenorth> perm: something sounds quite wrong there 19:46:28 <Ruudjah> in OpenTTD this would result in a concrete class for every setting, and about 20 classes for UI widgets 19:46:45 <Ruudjah> and a few management classes 19:47:49 <perm> what? 19:48:30 <andythenorth> those things shouldn't have changed 19:49:43 <Ruudjah> oh, btw, any considerations/plans to switch to git? 19:49:51 <Ruudjah> [for openttd as project]? 19:50:33 <Alberth> there is a git mirror 19:52:14 <Alberth> otherwise, I personally see no further advantage for switching to a distributed VCS 19:53:24 <Alberth> in fact, I find them a nuisance when committing to a common repo 19:53:26 <perm> well, I was playing the goonpack which might have been different than the actual release 19:54:00 <Alberth> what is goonpack? 19:55:05 <perm> just a custom install put together for goons 19:55:12 <perm> it's old and outdated 19:55:21 <Alberth> oh ok 19:56:35 <Alberth> anyways, those things should not have changed, so if you can show it by providing a 0.7 save game from the official release, we'd happy to fix it. 19:56:48 <Alberth> just make an issue in the bug tracker 20:08:54 <__ln__> is there a newgrf that adds dragons to the edges of the map? 20:10:30 *** enr1x [~kiike@62.57.224.180.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:13:24 *** Adambean` [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 20:21:00 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:21:50 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-89-176-248-169.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:26:38 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1CAB4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Progman] 20:26:52 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1CAB4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 20:28:25 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1CAB4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 20:28:39 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1CAB4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 20:29:00 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 20:29:27 <Rubidium> woohoo... a bug that isn't someone not understanding "it" 20:31:38 <Alberth> a happy exception to the rule :) 20:32:45 <frosch123> just hotkey 4 20:32:59 <Rubidium> yep 20:33:01 <frosch123> hotkey 6 crashes just on click 20:33:05 <Rubidium> all hotkeys for docks it seems 20:33:21 <andythenorth> oh yes 20:33:27 <andythenorth> that explains it :) 20:37:07 *** enr1x [~kiike@62.57.224.180.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #openttd 20:39:08 *** Krusen [~as.if@89.184.153.221] has joined #openttd 20:51:43 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22266 /trunk/src/dock_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4558]: In the scenario editor you could build a ship depot using the hotkeys. Removing that depot causes an assertions to trigger. 20:52:44 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22267 /trunk/src/lang/lithuanian.txt: -Fix: broken language file... 20:55:46 *** Adambean` [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing] 21:02:13 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-89-176-248-169.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 21:02:25 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 21:07:44 <sllide> i compiled it to run without sdl 21:07:54 <sllide> but, the new problem is it wont bind to an address 21:08:02 * andythenorth does ponder 21:08:06 <sllide> the odd thing is if i use netcat on the same port it works just fine 21:08:55 <andythenorth> which is better? 21:09:00 <andythenorth> fruit & veg -> town 21:09:08 <andythenorth> fruit & veg -> pack house -> food -> town 21:10:43 <supermop> i prefer fresh vegtables in real life 21:10:49 <supermop> oh man 21:10:53 <supermop> what if 21:11:25 <supermop> F & V payment rates decay very fast, but food does not 21:11:26 <supermop> so 21:11:46 <supermop> you can deliver local produce to nearby towns, 21:12:07 <supermop> but have to process it to make the journey to faraway places 21:23:49 *** Aylomen [~chatzilla@DSL01.83.171.148.216.ip-pool.NEFkom.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.15/20110303024726]] 21:24:21 <Terkhen> good night 21:26:38 <Rubidium> sllide: I guess netcat doesn't bind udp 21:28:11 *** andythenorth [~andy@91.125.142.2] has left #openttd [] 21:28:26 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i guess a (small, but frequent) pack house would be better 21:29:08 <Eddi|zuHause> mÀh 21:31:25 <supermop> progress! (sort of...): 21:31:27 <supermop> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=48605&p=937095#p937095 21:32:49 <sllide> Rubidium, dont know what it was but recompiling it helped 21:39:51 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [Quit: Visit my community site at http://sla-co.webs.com/] 21:42:04 *** perk11 [~perk11@81.17.157.195] has joined #openttd 21:53:48 *** Markavian [~Markavian@213.102.dsl.syd.iprimus.net.au] has joined #openttd 21:54:03 *** guru3_ is now known as guru3 21:59:40 *** JOHNSHEPARD [~JOHN-SHEP@ALyon-158-1-86-55.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:59:55 *** sllide [~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:03:04 *** windstrider [~windstrid@c-66-41-187-237.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:09:56 *** JOHNSHEPARD [~JOHN-SHEP@ALyon-158-1-188-151.w109-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 22:11:33 *** Krusen [~as.if@89.184.153.221] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:15:16 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f4a9b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:16:25 *** APTX_ [APTX@89-77-188-241.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:24:27 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:29:36 *** enr1x [~kiike@62.57.224.180.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:43:56 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1CAB4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:51:02 *** JOHN-SHEPARD_ [~JOHN-SHEP@ALyon-158-1-170-30.w86-209.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 22:51:17 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-89-176-248-169.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:56:12 *** JOHNSHEPARD [~JOHN-SHEP@ALyon-158-1-188-151.w109-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:05:44 <Wolf01> 'night 23:05:46 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host169-234-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 23:10:41 *** grzywacz [~grzywacz@89-78-180-180.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #openttd 23:17:22 *** Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe28dc00-181.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:17:37 *** Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe28dc00-181.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 23:23:11 *** Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe28dc00-181.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 23:37:52 *** JOHN-SHEPARD_ [~JOHN-SHEP@ALyon-158-1-170-30.w86-209.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:40:46 *** ecke [~ecke@188.75.128.2] has joined #openttd 23:41:02 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 23:47:52 *** JOHNSHEPARD [~JOHN-SHEP@ALyon-158-1-193-57.w109-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 23:55:03 *** Chillosophy [~Chillosop@ip91350749.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit []