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00:00:57 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.9.231.157] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 00:03:44 *** quibbit [519b0796@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 00:04:10 *** quibbit [519b0796@ircip1.mibbit.com] has left #openttd [] 00:05:30 *** Kro [519b0796@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 00:10:10 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 00:11:10 *** Kro [519b0796@ircip4.mibbit.com] has left #openttd [] 00:33:05 *** JVassie [~James@92.27.149.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:52:52 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.76.207] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:53:15 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.76.207] has joined #openttd 01:08:39 <Wolf01> 'night 01:08:43 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host219-229-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 01:16:44 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-25-52-127.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:17:42 *** Andel [~andel@178.32.93.43] has quit [Server closed connection] 01:17:46 *** Andel [~andel@owenrudge.net] has joined #openttd 02:01:55 *** Intexon [~Intexon@blk-222-147-135.eastlink.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:26:37 *** rhaeder1 [~quix0r@dslb-188-100-209-140.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 02:31:03 *** rhaeder [~quix0r@dslb-094-221-206-042.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:33:10 *** ImNotDrunk [~chatzilla@ool-4355b06d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #openttd 02:33:30 <ImNotDrunk> hello? 02:33:44 <ImNotDrunk> where can i d/l the installer frmo? site isnt working 02:34:14 <ImNotDrunk> anyone here? 02:36:19 <glx> http://de.binaries.openttd.org/binaries/releases/1.1.0/index.html 02:36:52 <glx> us works too 02:38:32 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:f5ea:3f63:59ef:2247] has quit [Quit: bye] 02:45:05 *** Absurd-Mind [~peter@p5495903A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 02:47:59 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.76.207] has quit [Quit: Sleep.] 02:55:05 <ImNotDrunk> so i downloaded the installer and it says that it is unable to d/l the graphics and sound etc... what files should i d/l from that link you sent me? 03:11:30 <ImNotDrunk> anyone here? 03:12:04 <ImNotDrunk> where can i get a hold of the graphics sounds and music files since the website is down and the installer file tries to d/l from the wrbsite as well 03:31:28 *** Absurd-Mind [~peter@p5495903A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:12:13 *** bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has joined #openttd 04:56:02 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B7686F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:56:18 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B75957.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 04:59:50 <k-man> ImNotDrunk, did you get it working? 05:02:13 <Rubidium> I'd say: retry ;) 05:14:38 *** andythenorth [~Andy@213.99.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #openttd 05:15:50 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 05:20:50 *** ImNotDrunk [~chatzilla@ool-4355b06d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit 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<Terkhen> good morning 06:43:46 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19B26.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 06:45:20 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@2001:888:10:ce8::2] has joined #openttd 06:47:39 *** DDR [~DDR@d142-179-79-208.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:56:04 *** bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:59:13 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:59:54 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4d0cd6aa.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 07:04:11 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC4AC0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 07:10:49 *** zodttd [~me@user-0c90n0l.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: zodttd] 07:10:55 *** zodttd [~me@user-0c90n0l.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #openttd 07:13:20 *** zodttd [~me@user-0c90n0l.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 07:13:27 *** zodttd [~me@user-0c90n0l.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #openttd 07:14:11 *** JVassie [~James@92.27.149.231] has joined #openttd 07:15:19 *** compi [~compi@mail1.itout.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 07:15:26 *** ar3k [~ident@ecd224.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 07:22:48 *** ar3kaw [~ident@ecf46.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:43:00 *** Absurd-Mind [~peter@p5495913B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 07:48:58 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4d0cd6aa.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:51:05 *** andythenorth [~Andy@213.99.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #openttd 07:51:26 <andythenorth> morening 07:51:35 <Terkhen> hi andythenorth 07:51:40 * andythenorth ponders 07:51:53 <andythenorth> might be a good idea to remove supplies from FIRS for YACD 08:03:03 *** andythenorth [~Andy@213.99.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 08:08:16 <Terkhen> IIRC you had plans for a "simplified" economy without supplies already 08:08:25 <Terkhen> oh, he's gone :) 08:11:04 <planetmaker> moin 08:11:32 <Terkhen> hi planetmaker 08:18:57 *** Twerkhoven [~turbulent@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 08:19:28 *** Juo [~Juo@cpc16-lewi15-2-0-cust395.2-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 08:35:57 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 08:41:59 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 08:44:46 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host219-229-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 08:44:53 *** Absurd-Mind [~peter@p5495913B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:45:34 <Wolf01> hello 08:51:35 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19B26.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:19:01 *** Netsplit charon.oftc.net <-> synthon.oftc.net quits: SirSquidness, DabuYu, Eddi|zuHause, @Belugas, @orudge, Juo, k-man, sigue, dotwaffle, tokai|mdlx, (+21 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 09:19:51 *** Netsplit over, joins: Adambean, Andel, roboboy, @Belugas, Fuco, Maarten_, Westie, Lachie, @orudge, Born_Acorn (+21 more) 09:28:28 <dihedral> oi 09:29:01 <yorick> hello dih 09:29:15 * yorick removes saveload from copy-paste patch 09:29:30 <dihedral> hello yorick 09:31:40 <yorick> nice to see how all of the bugs I fixed two years ago are still in it 09:39:18 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:51:29 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 10:11:00 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19B26.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 10:24:35 *** andythenorth [~Andy@213.99.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #openttd 10:30:26 *** Intexon [~Intexon@blk-222-147-135.eastlink.ca] has joined #openttd 10:34:02 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:35:20 *** compi [~compi@mail1.itout.de] has joined #openttd 10:36:15 <andythenorth> if I build a z-switchback up a mountain, will trains route through it correctly? :P 10:39:26 <Terkhen> yes, but that path will have a huge penalty 11:00:22 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.9.231.157] has joined #openttd 11:15:22 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 11:27:31 *** Intexon [~Intexon@blk-222-147-135.eastlink.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:38:54 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 11:45:36 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has left #openttd [] 11:52:19 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing] 11:54:11 *** aber [~Adium@gb049.stw.stud.uni-saarland.de] has joined #openttd 12:18:14 *** TheMask96 [martijn@lust.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:24:44 *** TheMask96 [martijn@lust.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 12:31:47 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:a8a7:dfe1:d246:ad1f] has joined #openttd 12:36:18 <andythenorth> brrr 12:36:23 <andythenorth> YACD continues to kick my ass 12:37:07 <planetmaker> as in stealing your time or as in having you loose the game? ;-) 12:37:42 <andythenorth> I'm making money 12:37:47 <andythenorth> but only really on PAX 12:37:52 <planetmaker> :-) 12:37:57 <andythenorth> FIRS is quite...hard :P 12:38:28 <planetmaker> hm, maybe I'll test FIRS and yacd in my next try 12:38:43 <andythenorth> if...eg. coal comes from A, there's no way to build a chain to end up with supplies going back to A 12:39:13 <andythenorth> so boosting production is really hard 12:39:24 <andythenorth> and trains with 18t / month aren't making much money 12:39:45 <andythenorth> if I leave them loading longer, my cargo decays too much 12:39:51 <andythenorth> and my station ratings are in any case in the ground 12:40:14 * andythenorth would like to abolish effect of station rating on cargo production 12:41:45 <planetmaker> that's a core element of the economy 12:42:30 <planetmaker> not as much as it can't be changed, but as in without that there's no incentive at all to do anything proper. And no way to distinguish how cargo is distributed to competing stations 12:42:36 <andythenorth> I know :( 12:43:04 <andythenorth> it's just not a nice effect with YACD 12:43:15 <andythenorth> 2t of 16t distributed etc :P 12:43:44 <andythenorth> maybe I need to eliminate supplies from FIRS for YACD 12:45:38 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-178-004-182-149.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 12:47:21 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i don't think so, supplies and destinations have a good synergy 12:47:34 <andythenorth> I'm not sure 12:47:42 <Eddi|zuHause> just YACD's handling of small amounts should be improved 12:47:56 <andythenorth> FIRS was designed for a different problem: making the crappy default economy more interesting 12:48:27 <andythenorth> maybe I need to rebalance primary / secondary 12:49:00 <andythenorth> lots of primaries is good for YACD. Lots of secondaries isn't 12:52:47 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i was telling that for years :p 12:53:31 *** amkoroew [~Heinz@p5B106305.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 12:56:34 <Terkhen> I'm playing my first successful yacd game now, it is just a passengers network :) 12:56:53 <planetmaker> that works quite well, yes 12:57:10 <Eddi|zuHause> there's way too many passengers 12:57:15 <planetmaker> start in a big town. Build a network. Take another such, do the same. Then connect them. And you're set 12:57:29 <planetmaker> I don't think there's too much 12:57:41 <andythenorth> passengers make money rain from the sky in YACD 12:57:47 <andythenorth> if you pick the right town(s) 12:58:01 <Ammler> not more as without 12:58:04 <planetmaker> It's not like I need dozens of inter city trains to serve a 10k city. About ten still suffice 12:58:14 <planetmaker> But I need quite a few trams and / or busses 12:58:23 <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: right now it is working because I am using a lot of metros for local traffic, but I reckon my network will be overwhelmed before I connect all big towns 12:58:36 <Terkhen> meanwhile it is fun :) 12:58:47 <planetmaker> But as usual: The game progresses too fast :-) 12:58:55 <Eddi|zuHause> inner city transport can be handled with (large) trams, but inter-city with trains is really troublesome 12:58:56 <planetmaker> Things grow faster than I can keep up expanding 12:59:14 <planetmaker> But I didn't check my town growth setting. It might be possible to lower that 12:59:31 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, you think so? I don't find that troublesome 12:59:34 *** amkoroew1 [~Heinz@p5B103E78.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:00:02 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: well, it is, with my build style :p 13:01:33 *** mode/#openttd [+v peter1138] by ChanServ 13:01:33 *** mode/#openttd [+v DorpsGek] by ChanServ 13:01:33 *** mode/#openttd [+o SmatZ] by ChanServ 13:01:33 *** mode/#openttd [+v planetmaker] by ChanServ 13:01:33 *** mode/#openttd [+v Terkhen] by ChanServ 13:01:33 *** mode/#openttd [+v Yexo] by ChanServ 13:01:36 *** mode/#openttd [+v Belugas] by ChanServ 13:05:04 <planetmaker> I really don't need many trains. Eddi|zuHause and I don't think I used a build style which would be much more different from yours 13:05:21 <planetmaker> My towns have a simple station of 2 ... 4 tracks with train length 5 tiles 13:05:25 <planetmaker> Nothing fancy 13:05:46 <planetmaker> On a 512^2 map 13:06:31 <planetmaker> And 2 ... 4 IC going between two distant 10k cities with intermediate stops in one, two other similar towns doesn't seem to me like "too much" 13:07:18 <Eddi|zuHause> my network looks similar to that, but it can't handle it properly... 13:07:21 <planetmaker> Mind though, that I only have about 6 such major passenger stations 13:07:45 <planetmaker> The rest is done by busses / trams into the suburb cities which are very near those major towns 13:08:04 <Belugas> hello 13:08:10 <planetmaker> and of course my map has large parts still unconnected... I always watch too much instead of building ;-) 13:08:31 <planetmaker> maybe it matters... I use SwedishHouses. 13:08:39 <planetmaker> The house set might influence passenger generation 13:08:41 <planetmaker> hello Belugas 13:08:44 <Terkhen> hi Belugas 13:08:47 <Terkhen> I'm using default houses 13:08:51 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that is likely 13:09:09 <planetmaker> ttrs will rather flood you with pax 13:09:13 <Belugas> hi hi 13:09:26 <Eddi|zuHause> check it out: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Loisachkirchen%20Transport,%201.%20Dez%201962.sav 13:09:48 <planetmaker> hm, later. No OpenTTD here ;-) 13:13:29 <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: I'm missing a lot of NewGRFs for loading that correctly, but in comparison I'm cheating with station spread a lot :P 13:15:57 <Terkhen> I'm also using metro trains from 2cc for local passengers, they can carry a lot of passengers and load/unload them quite fast 13:16:22 <Terkhen> then again, my biggest town is just 7000 13:16:28 <Eddi|zuHause> yep, DBSet doesn't have that luxury 13:16:34 <Markk> Is there any "real" subway mods yet? :> 13:16:45 <Markk> Or some way to have signals in tunnels and/or bridges 13:17:22 <Yexo> no and not without a patch 13:17:30 <Markk> Mkay 13:17:36 <Markk> Which patch would that be? :o 13:17:41 <Terkhen> and the patch for that is quite hacky 13:17:44 <Eddi|zuHause> imho subways should be a tram-style network 13:17:45 <Markk> ah 13:17:48 <Terkhen> Markk: signals in tunnels and/or bridges 13:18:03 <Eddi|zuHause> just non-blocking with trucks 13:18:25 <Terkhen> I agree, a new roadtype could simulate subways nicely 13:18:52 <Terkhen> people would complain that they can only build under roads, though 13:18:58 <planetmaker> ;-) 13:19:11 <Belugas> in other words, no hack, but the real thing 13:19:13 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: but that is fairly realistic 13:19:15 <planetmaker> I'd first complain that I cannot build different road types :-P 13:19:38 <Eddi|zuHause> brings us back to the three-roadtypes-per-tile problem ;) 13:19:42 <Terkhen> I know, but they would complain :) 13:19:45 <Eddi|zuHause> road,tram,subway 13:19:51 <Terkhen> I am an OpenTTD player, therefore I complain 13:19:53 <Belugas> hey.. they ALWAYS complain 13:20:49 <andythenorth> road types could be solved 13:21:03 <andythenorth> but I doubt it will be :P 13:21:36 <planetmaker> I've no doubt that they will. 13:21:47 <planetmaker> I just won't bet on any specific delivery date ;-) 13:21:58 <Terkhen> lim time->inf 13:22:16 <Belugas> WIWBR 13:28:27 <Eddi|zuHause> âF 13:30:42 <planetmaker> on a dense set 13:44:24 *** Doorslammer [770b0d4c@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 13:46:54 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you could consider the temporal logic over all commits 13:47:07 <Eddi|zuHause> commits are discrete 13:47:35 <Belugas> yeah :) 13:47:41 <Belugas> and cement is concrete 13:50:39 *** andythenorth [~Andy@213.99.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:53:42 *** compi [~compi@mail1.itout.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 13:53:52 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 13:56:15 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-86-183.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 13:57:34 *** douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-108-198.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:04:45 <yorick> hooray for heap corruption 14:05:01 <yorick> was getting crashes in the sound system...freed a pointed twice 14:05:04 <yorick> pointer* 14:09:56 <blathijs> yorick: Heh, that sounds familiar :-) 14:10:07 *** enr1x [~kiike@62.57.225.29.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #openttd 14:10:22 <yorick> note to self: std::vector<int*>::~vector calls delete on the contents 14:13:25 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.76.207] has joined #openttd 14:16:10 <Yexo> it does? 14:22:11 <Eddi|zuHause> well if insert etc. make copies, those copies should be deleted on removal 14:23:02 <Eddi|zuHause> of course i have no idea how std::stuff works 14:23:19 <Eddi|zuHause> and i'm not eager to find out 14:23:29 <Yexo> it makes a copy of the pointer 14:23:40 <yorick> Yexo: someone on ##C++ said it does, and then someone else said it doesn't 14:23:43 <Yexo> and as such it should only destroy the pointer, not the object pointed to 14:23:57 <Yexo> I'm almost certain it doesn't, as it wouldn't make any sense 14:29:28 <yorick> I should try to valgrind it, but then I run valgrind and wait 5 minutes before it launches a black screen 14:30:04 *** Doorslammer [770b0d4c@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 14:34:41 *** tparker [~tparker@ohhai.ithybia.com] has joined #openttd 14:36:54 <yorick> have there been any "omg virgin mary appeared on my random map" reports? 14:37:55 <Eddi|zuHause> have you checked the screenshots/savegames forum? 14:37:56 <planetmaker> I'm sure I've seen here. So: yes 14:38:23 <yorick> :'( 14:40:10 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, you're not friend with URL tags today, are you? http://www.tt-ms.de/forum/showthread.php?tid=5247&page=3 14:40:27 *** asilv [~as@h-62-142-161-134.joensuunelli.fi] has joined #openttd 14:40:57 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 14:41:17 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i'm actually going crazy now... 14:41:52 <Eddi|zuHause> how can i make the exact same mistake twice? 14:42:07 <Eddi|zuHause> on two completely independent occasions 15:02:39 *** APTX [APTX@89-77-188-241.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:02:56 *** APTX [APTX@89-77-188-241.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #openttd 15:21:17 *** Dreamxtreme [~Dream@92.18.126.40] has quit [Quit: Never look down on someone unless you're helping them up.] 15:21:33 *** Dreamxtreme [~Dream@92.18.126.40] has joined #openttd 15:24:52 *** douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-105-158.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 15:25:20 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.160.137] has joined #openttd 15:26:18 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC4AC0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:26:50 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC4163.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 15:30:23 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-86-183.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:31:28 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@88.130.169.248] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:38:16 *** enr1x [~kiike@62.57.225.29.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:44:49 *** Wizzleby [~wizzleby@pool-108-16-114-12.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 15:45:15 *** Wizzleby is now known as Guest75 15:46:25 *** romazoon [romazoon@130-118.76-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #openttd 15:51:17 *** andythenorth [~Andy@213.99.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #openttd 16:04:19 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-78-102-233-195.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 16:10:16 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-81-33.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 16:19:37 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC4163.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 16:20:16 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-201-219.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 16:25:45 *** staN [~Miranda@p5B176188.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 16:26:01 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-158-244.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:30:33 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-81-33.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:34:18 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 16:34:31 <Terkhen> my network is starting to collapse :( 16:35:10 <andythenorth> why? 16:35:37 <Rubidium> paxoverload? 16:35:41 <Terkhen> yes 16:36:21 <andythenorth> I don't worry about that 16:36:24 <andythenorth> they can stand and wait 16:36:27 <andythenorth> I"m making money :P 16:36:58 * andythenorth is busy plotting how to rebuild FIRS 16:38:58 <andythenorth> making FIRS specific to YACD is going to result in fewer FIRS users? 16:39:34 <Terkhen> andythenorth: IMO that's a big steep and maybe it is too early 16:39:56 <Terkhen> besides, if supplies are the problem you could do that "simple" economy you already had planned 16:39:57 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd 16:40:02 <andythenorth> can't see me going back to a non-YACD game now 16:40:05 <andythenorth> too addictive 16:40:37 <Terkhen> me too 16:40:54 <Terkhen> what problems do FIRS have with YACD? 16:40:58 <andythenorth> I for one welcome our new YACD overlord :P 16:41:43 <andythenorth> brb - baby action 16:41:47 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:42:13 <Terkhen> ok 16:46:49 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 16:46:52 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 16:46:54 <andythenorth> Terkhen: multiple problems 16:47:11 <andythenorth> two are easy to describe and solve, one is hard 16:47:38 <andythenorth> (1) FIRS primaries generally have low production, this is then split 2 or 3 ways, and routes are not profitable 16:48:13 <andythenorth> (2) it's insanely hard to get enough cargo moving in chains to generate supplies 16:48:54 <andythenorth> (3) FIRS secondary production ratios are a bad concept for YACD. 16:49:31 <andythenorth> and there's a minor one (4) some FIRS industries cluster to provide short profitable routes, but this concept fails with YACD 16:50:08 <andythenorth> 3 is a killer 16:50:35 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e0dba34.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 16:53:39 <Terkhen> hmm... (1) seems like the biggest issue to me 16:53:59 <Terkhen> with (3) you mean the "6 tonnes for each 8 ton" part? 16:54:03 <andythenorth> yes 16:54:13 *** anujmore [~atm@triband-mum-59.182.10.150.mtnl.net.in] has joined #openttd 16:54:17 <andythenorth> and the need to deliver 2 or 3 cargos in combination 16:54:18 <Terkhen> why is that an issue? 16:54:36 <anujmore> My local authority is not allowing me to do stuff :/ Any cheat for that? 16:54:44 <anujmore> TTD 1.1.0 16:55:05 <andythenorth> production ratio combination was designed to encourage players to deliver multiple cargos to a secondary industry 16:55:12 <andythenorth> but with YACD that's not a choice the player has 16:55:27 <Alberth> anujmore: plant trees, or try bribing, or wait 16:55:31 *** ctibor|spi [~quassel@77.48.228.43] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 16:56:12 <Alberth> anujmore: normal strategy is to first place the stations, then turn the city upside down ;) 16:56:33 <Terkhen> andythenorth: the difficulty of getting enough cargo for the industry you want is the biggest problem IMO 16:56:47 *** ctibor [~quassel@77.48.228.43] has joined #openttd 16:56:49 <andythenorth> I thought so 16:56:57 <Alberth> anujmore: there is also a city counsil attitude setting somewhere 16:57:12 <anujmore> Alberth: I don't know how to 'turn a city upside down'. You can edit a wiki page on how to do that. 16:57:17 <Terkhen> the same things happens with towns (you get a long list of towns with not much passengers), but in that case it is not a big issue 16:57:47 <anujmore> Alberth: 'Planting trees'. In the vicinity of the city? 16:57:49 <andythenorth> but now I have 1,000t of iron ore going into a steel mill... 16:58:05 <Alberth> anujmore: counsil gets upset when you terraform or clear land. I call that 'turning the city upside down'. 16:58:06 <andythenorth> (grouped from 6 ore mines - YACD is good at that) 16:58:17 <Alberth> anujmore: yes, near the city 16:58:22 <Terkhen> I think the same would happen with ECS or any other complex industry NewGRF set; if a cargo can go to too much destinations, you end up not having enough cargo for any industry 16:58:46 <Terkhen> for productive industries, using destinations it is a bit stupid IMO 16:59:04 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590ff89e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 16:59:13 <Terkhen> coal is coal, you don't care from where it comes 16:59:14 <andythenorth> I'm only getting 250t metal out because I have no coal or scrap that want to go to that mill 16:59:19 <anujmore> Alberth: I totally terraformed it. And cleared it. Building my dream city now. What about bribing. Where is that? 16:59:26 <Alberth> Terkhen: YACD makes that problem worse in the sense that it distributes cargo always in all directions 16:59:41 <Terkhen> and a coal mine shouldn't mind where its cargo goes as long as it is being sold 16:59:58 <Terkhen> it makes sense for stuff like goods and so on, not for primary cargos 17:00:12 <Alberth> but my mine has contracts! :p 17:00:16 <andythenorth> I think it does make sense 17:00:26 <andythenorth> it's FIRS that is wrong 17:00:58 <Alberth> andythenorth: it is not designed with cargod*st in mind, that does not mean it is wrong 17:01:10 <Terkhen> meh, I let my game unpaused and now all stations are overloaded again 17:01:23 <Alberth> anujmore: in the city window, but you have to enable it 17:01:37 <Terkhen> s/let/left/ 17:01:47 <Alberth> Terkhen: reload from the last save game :) 17:02:06 <Terkhen> I wonder when I saved for the last time :) 17:02:26 <Alberth> tias :) 17:02:40 <andythenorth> FIRS requires multiple cargos to be delivered within a 30 day window 17:02:46 <andythenorth> which is also worse for YACD 17:03:01 <andythenorth> I have to run trains that might only deliver a few times a year because cargo amounts are so small 17:03:41 <andythenorth> I also had to turn off secondary closing, or I lose all my industries, but I could really do with a few less secondaries in this game 17:04:03 * Alberth points to the magic bulldozer 17:05:21 * andythenorth points back at a checkbox in his game 17:05:28 <andythenorth> kind of cheating though... 17:05:39 <andythenorth> I'm sure this is solvable 17:05:51 <andythenorth> wonder what good alternatives there to combining cargo 17:06:55 *** Sacro [~ben@150.237.222.147] has joined #openttd 17:07:04 <planetmaker> many chains like coal mine > power plant ;-) 17:07:27 <Terkhen> enabling yacd only for passengers/cargo :P 17:07:36 *** Nite [5472b1fc@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 17:07:38 <andythenorth> no fun :P 17:07:48 <andythenorth> YACD makes for a better cargo network 17:07:54 <andythenorth> it's FIRS that needs updating 17:08:00 <Nite> what is YACD ? 17:08:30 <Terkhen> Nite: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=54253 17:08:33 <planetmaker> yet another ... 17:08:52 <Nite> thx :-D 17:08:58 <andythenorth> also...that town question comes up a lot 17:09:12 <andythenorth> we should update the string 17:09:20 <andythenorth> used by the 'not allowed' error 17:09:44 *** zachanima [~zach@2506ds3-od.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:10:27 *** ndh [~opera@dslb-088-073-085-219.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 17:10:47 <Nite> cargo to specific tiles (not areas) reads rather complex 17:11:18 <Alberth> andythenorth: accept the same input cargo by many industries would help in combining 17:12:38 <Terkhen> Nite: I find it more intuitive than normal gameplay 17:13:01 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22419 /trunk/src/ (12 files in 4 dirs): 17:13:01 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Change: Always use the DOS palette for drawing. 17:13:01 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Remove: the '-i' option for palette selection. 17:15:27 <anujmore> Ok. Guys. Someone needs to help with checking my local authority rating. 17:15:47 <andythenorth> Alberth: can you explain? :) 17:16:06 <andythenorth> do you mean no destinations for primary cargo? 17:16:06 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22420 /trunk/src/table/palettes.h: -Cleanup: Replace the somewhat mixed DOS+Windows palette with the pure DOS palette. Also blank the animation colours, which are filled from a different array anyway. 17:17:07 <Alberth> no destinations for primary cargo just shifts the problem one level 17:17:26 <andythenorth> yes 17:17:30 <andythenorth> and it's not as much fun :) 17:17:38 <andythenorth> it's question of industry design 17:17:54 <anujmore> How do I check my what the local authority rates me as? 17:18:02 <andythenorth> town window 17:18:18 <Alberth> in the extreme, if I have an industry that accepts all kinds of cargo, it is trivial to get enough output from it 17:18:24 <andythenorth> ^^ shame the error message doesn't (a) say that (b) provide a link to town window 17:18:54 <andythenorth> Alberth: I could ditch the combinatory ratios 17:19:48 <Alberth> the other way around, have many industries that can produce the same cargo would also make it easier 17:20:09 <andythenorth> hmm 17:20:11 * andythenorth ponders 17:20:20 <andythenorth> I could use stockpiling... 17:20:36 <andythenorth> so no cargo is processed until all required cargo is supplied 17:20:39 <andythenorth> > worse 17:21:09 <V453000> stockpiling? 17:21:18 <V453000> that would be disastrous 17:21:32 <Alberth> your < 1 production ratio makes things more difficult compared to default industries, it's an extra factor that is added 17:21:37 <V453000> makes PBI unplayable foe example 17:21:43 <Alberth> I don't know what eg ECS does 17:21:49 <andythenorth> Alberth: I think it could be modified 17:21:56 <andythenorth> some of the ratios are very low, e.g. 2/8 17:22:05 <andythenorth> it could be more forgiving 17:22:11 <andythenorth> e.g. 5/8 17:22:23 <andythenorth> new problem 17:22:28 <Alberth> an extra setting 17:22:42 <andythenorth> I now have (after 55 years), some supplies being produced 17:22:49 <andythenorth> but all 48 crates want to go to one mine :( 17:23:03 <andythenorth> another FIRS concept fails with YACD :D 17:23:15 <andythenorth> YACD needs a newgrf spec 17:23:25 <Alberth> V453000: unplayable because you have to stop supplying industries? 17:23:35 <Alberth> YACD needs to fix that imho 17:23:45 *** zachanima [~zach@2506ds3-od.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #openttd 17:23:48 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I'm not quite sure whether your "it has all to be solved via newgrfs" is here the right approach 17:23:59 <andythenorth> it's a bit late to change that approach 17:24:05 <V453000> unplayable because you can not by any means expect having productions of primaries balanced enough to keep for example a steel mill alive 17:24:05 <andythenorth> that's been the default approach for years :) 17:24:10 <Alberth> you need a finer balance of where the cargo goes imho 17:24:26 <planetmaker> andythenorth: not quite 17:24:32 <V453000> you always have more of one, be it iron ore or coal 17:24:35 <andythenorth> wrt industries it has been 17:25:00 <Alberth> V453000: ah, yeah that is also a problem 17:25:04 <planetmaker> but not wrt where cargo goes 17:25:29 <andythenorth> I don't see how the game can know about the intentions of a newgrf 17:26:06 <V453000> having stockpiling, stopping productions and expecting the cargo to arrive in X:Y rate is just ill-minded and does not fit the game at all 17:26:07 <andythenorth> the cargo requirements of an industry are an aspect of the industry newgrf, not the game? 17:26:26 <V453000> I like what FIRS does, you deliver both ->you get more produced, but it does not break anything 17:26:54 <planetmaker> andythenorth: and where they go is in the domain of the player and the game. Not the newgrf 17:27:05 <Alberth> V453000: stockpiling in its own is not so bad, the trouble comes with rigid X:Y ratios, and finite buffers 17:27:16 <V453000> it is absolutely bad 17:27:32 <planetmaker> if it is limited 17:27:35 <andythenorth> planetmaker: that points to why I think FIRS supplies concept may be invalid with YACD... 17:27:45 <andythenorth> FIRS tries to tell player 'send this much cargo' 17:27:52 <andythenorth> but the game doesn't know about that 17:28:02 <V453000> planetmaker: unlimited stockpiling only doesnt break anything, but it just remains stupid 17:28:04 <V453000> imo 17:28:31 <planetmaker> what's the difference from a playing POV to 'just accept everything'? 17:28:50 <planetmaker> and why is it more stupid than to instantaneously process everything? 17:29:10 <Alberth> ramping up production slowly is nice, imho 17:29:19 <V453000> yes, that doesnt hurt :) 17:30:04 <Alberth> and a finite processing speed means you cannot dump everything at one industry, which may be nice too 17:30:14 <andythenorth> stockpiling of one cargo with YACD would be fine, it's supposed to optimise for it 17:30:29 <andythenorth> stockpiling + waiting for all needed cargo would be a disaster with YACD 17:30:44 <Nite> finite is good but stockpiles should be rather large ... 17:31:04 <andythenorth> as usual stockpiling is misunderstood :P 17:31:07 <Alberth> rigid ratio between cargoes is bad 17:31:13 <andythenorth> a stockpile is a big pile of stuff 17:31:14 <Nite> playing only ecs for quite some time now 17:31:28 <andythenorth> a stockpile is *not* turning off acceptance when a limit is reached 17:31:33 <Terkhen> stockpiling + YACD would probably result in a huge network collapse if you surpass the limit 17:31:36 <andythenorth> that is called 'turning off acceptance' 17:31:42 * andythenorth is fed up of correcting this 17:31:50 <Terkhen> hmm... for me they have always been the same thing :) 17:32:13 <andythenorth> the metal industries in canadian set use stockpiling 17:32:17 <andythenorth> but not with limits 17:33:01 <Nite> so the stockpile stays at a level but you can deliver as i understand 17:33:18 <andythenorth> if you deliver, you get paid, but the stockpile probably gets bigger 17:33:38 <Terkhen> if the stockpile limit is reached, you can deliver, you get paid but that cargo is not used for production? 17:33:40 <andythenorth> it should be called 'gradual processing' which is (I think) what the spec actually calls it 17:33:41 <Nite> well in ecs you often have overproduction 17:33:52 <andythenorth> cargo is processed at a fixed rate 17:34:02 <Nite> which forces you to build something to balance 17:34:31 <Nite> its more a balancing act then yust produce more and more of one cargo 17:34:37 <Nite> j 17:34:57 * Terkhen is okay with that way of stockpiling 17:35:09 *** zachanima [~zach@2506ds3-od.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:35:19 <Nite> guess i have to try yacd in first place 17:36:27 <andythenorth> any industry that requires cargos in combination is going to be a minor disaster for YACD :( 17:36:44 <Nite> might be true 17:37:22 * andythenorth pondres 17:37:31 <andythenorth> it's like pondering, but in foreign 17:37:36 <Nite> i also think cargodestdistinations are mostly needed for pax 17:37:38 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-105-158.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 17:37:42 <Alberth> andythenorth: you could reduce the bonus for combined cargo delivery 17:37:46 <andythenorth> yes 17:37:55 <andythenorth> and increase the ratio for single cargo 17:37:56 *** anujmore [~atm@triband-mum-59.182.10.150.mtnl.net.in] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:38:00 <andythenorth> seems like the best approach initiall 17:38:01 <andythenorth> y 17:38:17 <andythenorth> and can be done in my current game :) 17:38:30 <Nite> industry placement could do a lot forcing you to deliver further than next door 17:38:59 *** zachanima [~zach@2506ds3-od.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #openttd 17:39:00 <andythenorth> Nite: it's a puny measure compared to what YACD can do 17:39:17 <Nite> or could do? 17:39:38 <andythenorth> YACD makes cargo transport way more interesting, as the cargo is trying to get somewhere 17:39:45 <andythenorth> so transfers and such have way more purpose 17:39:51 <andythenorth> before they were optionsl 17:39:56 <andythenorth> optional /s 17:40:03 <andythenorth> with YACD they're obligatory 17:40:10 <andythenorth> and much simpler to set up 17:40:38 <Nite> i assume cargo stocked at stations still decreases with time ? 17:41:06 <planetmaker> if the rating is < 50%, yes 17:41:08 <andythenorth> planetmaker: any ideas for what to do with supplies (assuming something other than a newgrf spec) 17:41:10 <andythenorth> ? 17:42:08 <planetmaker> stockpile them with a cut-off of 12 months (but continue accepting) and reduce it each month by the monthly share 17:42:08 <Nite> did never know that it only decreases below 50% 17:42:21 <Eddi|zuHause> destinations severely suffer from the rating dropping below 50% 17:42:34 <andythenorth> planetmaker: so back to the original supplies behaviour with a few tweaks? 17:42:50 <planetmaker> might be worth a try, not? 17:42:53 <andythenorth> could be 17:43:00 <andythenorth> I'm not sure they're even valid any more 17:43:04 <planetmaker> it would also fix the issue of delivering exactly every month 17:43:09 <andythenorth> yes 17:43:13 <andythenorth> and the question of amounts 17:43:15 <andythenorth> and effects 17:43:20 <planetmaker> could be a parameter like "stockpile for N months" 17:43:26 <Terkhen> sounds good 17:43:29 <planetmaker> and that could be fixed then (easier), too 17:43:34 <andythenorth> the purpose of supplies was to give players ability to influence industry production 17:43:38 <andythenorth> YACD prevents that 17:43:40 <planetmaker> like consume more from a stockpile for higher production 17:43:49 <planetmaker> would make it possibly easier 17:44:00 <planetmaker> I know that I deviate from opinions voiced previously 17:44:01 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 17:44:05 <andythenorth> stuff changes 17:44:19 <andythenorth> I suspect they're a bad idea 17:44:26 <planetmaker> No, I don't think so 17:44:28 *** douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-105-158.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:44:29 <andythenorth> I don't think YACD will work well with them 17:44:47 <Terkhen> there, fixed network :) 17:44:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i do think that. 17:45:00 <planetmaker> Also: don't start to taylor FIRS for YACD before it's in trunk 17:45:04 <Terkhen> ^ 17:45:05 <andythenorth> ach 17:45:11 <planetmaker> and I'm confident they'll work with yacd 17:45:28 <andythenorth> they'll be annoying 17:45:33 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r22422 /trunk/src/lang/ (4 files): 17:45:33 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:45:33 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dutch - 3 changes by habell 17:45:33 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: english_US - 3 changes by Rubidium 17:45:33 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: finnish - 3 changes by jpx_ 17:45:34 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 3 changes by Tucalipe 17:45:41 <andythenorth> production will depend on where YACD chooses to send cargo 17:45:43 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22421 /trunk/src/ (19 files in 4 dirs): -Fix: Replace various references to Windows palette greyscale indices with the DOS palette indices. 17:45:49 <andythenorth> player will have no influence on industry production 17:45:53 <Eddi|zuHause> supplies can benefit from stockpiling, regardless of YACD 17:46:16 <andythenorth> ^ I won't do that 17:46:40 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yacd still needs tweaks for small amounts of cargo 17:46:52 <planetmaker> andythenorth: the patch is not near finished. 17:47:00 <andythenorth> I'm 70% convinced that supplies needs to go 17:47:03 <Nite> why is CD for cargo so intresting at all? 17:47:06 <planetmaker> You should not draw any conclusions from how distribution works in your version as of now 17:47:11 <Terkhen> supplies is what makes FIRS unique 17:47:14 <planetmaker> ^^ 17:47:23 <andythenorth> try a game and see.... 17:47:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: don't remove supplies, it's the whole point of FIRS 17:47:34 <planetmaker> andythenorth: it's a patch. It's not trunk 17:47:38 <planetmaker> And it WILL change behaviour 17:47:38 <Nite> i would only need PD Paxdestinations ... 17:47:43 <andythenorth> trunk players can use FIRS 0.6.4 17:47:51 <andythenorth> FIRS development is stalled anyway 17:48:05 <andythenorth> I'm quite happy developing it for me 17:48:14 <andythenorth> there won't be another release for a long time 17:48:18 <Nite> the destination of cargo is already determined by the industries and where they are placed i think 17:48:29 <Alberth> Nite: but cargo is much more fun, much more diversity in wagons that you need 17:48:32 <andythenorth> Nite: have you tried a yacd game? 17:48:40 <Eddi|zuHause> Nite: mail, goods, food, valuables -- all benefit from cargo destinations 17:48:50 <Nite> but ok it should be complete 17:48:53 <andythenorth> yacd could make town control non-necessary 17:49:09 <andythenorth> it provides much more interest for town cargos like food 17:49:28 <Alberth> Nite: passengers and mail is quite easy, as you immediately have cargo for both directions 17:49:32 <andythenorth> and 'grow this town by delivering cargo' is not that interesting a goal anyway 17:49:37 <andythenorth> whereas yacd is addictive 17:49:43 *** JVassie_ [~James@92.27.149.231] has joined #openttd 17:49:57 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: they complement each other 17:50:06 <andythenorth> they could indeed 17:50:17 <andythenorth> I don't think they conflict in anyway 17:50:22 <andythenorth> if town control happens, great :) 17:50:33 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there's no point disturbing your tram network with mail cars, if there's no requirement to transport mail at all 17:50:51 <andythenorth> except that you make money... 17:51:19 <andythenorth> mail needs a rethink... 17:51:27 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you won't if your transport capacity is already exhausted with passengers 17:51:31 <andythenorth> true 17:52:11 <andythenorth> the point of FIRS supplies is that I can influence industry growth 17:52:28 <andythenorth> instead of relying on crazy station rating, which fails for many networks 17:52:44 <andythenorth> but with YACD that purpose is gone 17:52:48 <Terkhen> yes, you can use supplies to do what you want 17:52:57 <Terkhen> why is that gone? you still might want to increase the production of some industries 17:53:04 <andythenorth> you don't have the choice to do so 17:53:07 <Eddi|zuHause> the point of supplies is to have some basic feedback mechanism, once your initial network is built up 17:53:27 <andythenorth> I think it might be better to revert to looking at station ratings, or transported cargo or some such to boost production 17:53:40 <andythenorth> it will also free up some cargos, and reduce the industry count nicely 17:53:44 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: station ratings are even worse with yacdest 17:53:49 <andythenorth> yes 17:53:53 <andythenorth> I think they're a crappy problem 17:54:07 <andythenorth> I could use piglets to fix them, but that's nasty 17:54:44 <Eddi|zuHause> don't remove supplies, they are a good concept as they are right now 17:55:18 <andythenorth> it seems they're popular, but that doesn't mean they're good 17:55:20 <Terkhen> IMO marking supplies as "this cargo should not use destinations" would be enough 17:55:29 *** JVassie [~James@92.27.149.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:55:31 <andythenorth> but that's not going to be possible 17:55:32 <planetmaker> it would cut out the spirit of FIRS, if ther were no supplies 17:55:33 <Terkhen> then you regain control of supplies again 17:55:35 <Terkhen> why not? 17:55:41 <Terkhen> YACD is not finished 17:55:46 <andythenorth> it would need a newgrf spec 17:55:52 <andythenorth> hmm 17:55:54 <planetmaker> ach 17:56:01 <andythenorth> the spirit of FIRS is 'fun gameplay' 17:56:16 <planetmaker> you really should stop thinking about *random patch* influencing NewGRF. 17:56:17 <Terkhen> given that YACD already supports deciding which cargos use destinations via parameters, I don't think that adding a new cargo flag for this behaviour would be a big issue 17:57:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i really think destinations are ESPECIALLY useful for supplies 17:59:09 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. send a larger train on a roundtrip-route, and each industry along this route gets a small share of the loaded supplies 17:59:40 <Eddi|zuHause> the only thing that needs changing is the distribution function of yacdest 17:59:53 <Eddi|zuHause> it's working way better with cargodist 18:02:14 *** Nite [5472b1fc@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 18:02:23 *** TheMask96 [martijn@lust.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:02:49 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that's true 18:03:00 <V453000> aka making it noob way 18:03:15 <andythenorth> if I had any significant quantity of supplies on my map I could test it :) 18:04:15 <andythenorth> YACD already has certain weightings in cfg, although I'm not 100% sure what they do yet 18:04:32 *** Chillosophy [~Chillosop@ip91350749.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #openttd 18:04:35 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4db1ab83.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 18:04:40 <andythenorth> being able to specify 'favour many industries' or 'favour large cargo amounts' would be useful 18:08:53 *** TheMask96 [martijn@pride.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 18:10:12 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: those are yacdest problems, that's precisely why it's "not finished yet" 18:11:35 <andythenorth> well perhaps 18:11:52 <andythenorth> but exactly how should it solve that problem? 18:12:45 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the general path is "don't change FIRS to fit YACDest, change YACDest to fit FIRS" 18:12:55 <andythenorth> no that's clearly all wrong 18:12:59 <andythenorth> FIRS is a newgrf 18:13:13 <andythenorth> changing the game to fit a specific industry newgrf is upside down 18:13:37 <andythenorth> we proved recently that newgrfs have to comply with spec, not vice-versa (depot flip) 18:14:08 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no, it is not. if a newgrf was working well with unchanged game, so any game change must carefully consider the implication on the newgrfs 18:14:20 <andythenorth> but yacd doesn't break the nfo behaviour 18:14:26 <andythenorth> it's an addition to gameplay 18:14:33 <andythenorth> it's up to authors to support that correctly 18:15:01 <andythenorth> :o :) 18:15:05 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yacdest is also not fully specified yet. so it's the easiest thing to change 18:15:24 <andythenorth> I am only confused on one point: how should it change? 18:15:33 <andythenorth> if I knew what feedback to provide to michi I could 18:16:02 <andythenorth> currently it goes like this: please special case certain cargo labels used by FIRS, which may be used differently by other sets, but do it anyway (please) 18:16:24 <andythenorth> but I may be overlooking something obvious 18:16:26 <andythenorth> it happens often 18:16:41 <Eddi|zuHause> the two things that are floating in my head are: a) each "chunk" of industry shouldn't only go to one single industry, it should spread out. and b) each industry should have at least two incoming sources for the same cargo 18:17:01 <planetmaker> not cargo labels need to be special but possibly certain cargo properties / flags 18:17:07 <andythenorth> yes 18:17:13 <Eddi|zuHause> the more industries there are, the higher the number of incoming/outgoing lines should be 18:17:20 <andythenorth> seems like an action 0 prop, or more likely, a cb 18:17:33 <planetmaker> like passenger cargo class uses - passenger stations. The rest cargo stations 18:17:40 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that sounds like an enforced distribution to make sure all needed cargos are provided in some amount? 18:17:52 <andythenorth> currently that is far from guaranteed by YACD ;) 18:18:39 <andythenorth> isn't there a risk it just ends up with a uniform distribution? 18:18:53 <andythenorth> (which would suit supplies perfectly, but not other cargos ) 18:19:12 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: currently, yacdest-distribution works like majority vote: all or nothing 18:19:22 <Eddi|zuHause> a more proportional system would be better 18:19:34 <andythenorth> very timely ;) 18:20:24 <Eddi|zuHause> cargodist is fully proportional, which is why it works better 18:21:52 <andythenorth> my planes are doing very badly with yacd, which surprises me 18:22:22 <michi_cc> Oh my, what monster did I unleash? :) 18:22:28 <Eddi|zuHause> planes have near zero capacity, every plane line i ever made was immediately overloaded 18:22:34 <Terkhen> :P 18:23:38 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: not monster. it just needs some fine scale tweaks :p 18:23:55 <Eddi|zuHause> (i.e. the other 90% of the work :p) 18:23:56 <andythenorth> michi_cc: it's pretty much the game I was waiting for TTD to be :P 18:28:25 <peter1138> yacd is how i wanted cargodest to work ;p 18:28:38 <peter1138> simutrans-style 18:28:56 <andythenorth> ach, ship it, it's done :P 18:29:03 *** Sacro [~ben@150.237.222.147] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:37:44 *** Intexon [~Intexon@blk-222-147-135.eastlink.ca] has joined #openttd 18:37:49 <michi_cc> cargodest at with the wrong side of the problem (just as my two previous YACD tries did :). If you want destinations, start with the destinations and not with the routing. 18:38:08 <michi_cc> s/at/started/ 18:46:38 <peter1138> *nod* 18:47:16 <Eddi|zuHause> well. it has advantages and disadvantages 18:47:23 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 18:50:40 <andythenorth> 'death to the transfer order' :P 18:50:58 <andythenorth> what happens if I actually use transfer in yacd? :o 18:51:05 <andythenorth> probably nothing 18:51:12 <andythenorth> or nothing different 18:51:13 <planetmaker> works as expected 18:53:27 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 18:55:42 <michi_cc> andythenorth: Transfer is silently ignored, all other order modifiers work like before. 18:56:07 <andythenorth> makes sense 18:56:14 <andythenorth> fewer clicks for me :) 18:56:25 *** Sacro [~ben@adsl-178-78-95-75.karoo.kcom.com] has joined #openttd 18:58:56 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, when the autosave-interval has an invalid value in the config, could it default to monthly instead of off? 18:59:01 *** ChoHag_ [~mking@109-170-148-201.xdsl.murphx.net] has joined #openttd 18:59:25 <ChoHag_> Can the liklihood of a level-crossing collision be reduced? 18:59:29 <ChoHag_> Or even removed entirely. 18:59:37 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: that would make perfect sense, so no. 18:59:50 <Zuu> ChoHag_: Not in OpenTTD. 18:59:55 <Rubidium> Zuu: lies... 18:59:58 <Zuu> But you can write a patch. 18:59:59 <Rubidium> 1) use path signals 19:00:05 <Zuu> Oh, yes 19:00:16 <Rubidium> 1a) don't use 1 tile signal blocks 19:00:20 <Rubidium> 2) use bridges 19:00:21 <__ln__> ChoHag_: yes, by not having any road vehicles on roads containing level-crossings 19:00:24 <Eddi|zuHause> 2) use adjacent crossing patch 19:00:45 <Alberth> a) don't use trucks/buses, b) don't use trains 19:01:16 <ChoHag_> What's the point in having road vehicles if not to use them? 19:01:27 <Zuu> c) use AIs that build bridges. 19:01:56 <Alberth> ChoHag_: it reduces the chance of a collision 19:03:09 <Eddi|zuHause> however, adjacent crossings are deat traps for articulated trucks/trams 19:03:20 <Eddi|zuHause> *death 19:03:49 <ChoHag_> So if I have both trains and buses, the only way to avoid collisions and have level crossings is path signals? 19:04:14 <Alberth> quite likely 19:05:06 <Eddi|zuHause> path signals close the crossing earlier, so slow trucks are less likely to be hit by fast trains, but on double tracks, the second track is very likely to crash into the backlog of vehicles 19:05:53 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-78-102-233-195.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:06:08 <Alberth> usually, I build bridges instead of a level crossing 19:07:14 <Eddi|zuHause> level crossings are actually quite nice as long as you have low traffic 19:07:56 <Eddi|zuHause> bridges take more space, especially without custom bridgeheads 19:08:09 <Eddi|zuHause> and towns don't create buildings next to bridgeheads 19:08:12 <ChoHag_> Seems to be working. 19:12:53 <ChoHag_> If you change AI options in the main screen does it affect already-created AIs? 19:14:05 <Eddi|zuHause> no, changes on the main screen (almost) never affect existing games 19:15:12 <ChoHag_> Can existing AI's options be changed? 19:23:37 <Eddi|zuHause> never tried that 19:24:12 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4d0cd6aa.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 19:35:53 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC4163.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 19:43:47 *** robotboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 19:46:25 * dihedral cries 19:46:37 <dihedral> unity sucks, gnome 3 sucks .... 19:46:39 <dihedral> grr 19:47:15 <fonsinchen> kde4 sucks, too 19:47:18 <planetmaker> vacuum sucks 19:47:38 <fonsinchen> I don't understand how they managed to mess it all up so thoroughly ... 19:47:50 <dihedral> aye 19:48:05 <dihedral> in the past the future simply was better! 19:49:27 <dihedral> yes, they do have some nifty features - but at what cost? 19:50:41 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:58:26 <dihedral> fonsinchen, what do you use instead then? 19:58:38 <fonsinchen> lxde and xfce 19:58:47 <fonsinchen> I like lxde more atm 19:59:16 <fonsinchen> but I haven't settled, yet 19:59:43 <fonsinchen> I also tried those tiling WMs, but I didn't have the patience to properly set them up. 19:59:47 <fonsinchen> Nice idea, though. 20:00:49 <fonsinchen> Maybe I should try trinity. kde3 used to be my favourite. 20:02:14 <andythenorth> how do you get any code written when finding a WM takes so long? :o 20:02:22 *** douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-182-167.w109-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 20:03:39 <fonsinchen> finding a WM takes so long because I don't spend much time on it. The whole situation just annoys me. 20:03:51 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-78-102-233-195.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 20:04:31 <dihedral> we only have to waste time finding a WM because the current chosen software is fucking up! 20:04:42 <andythenorth> he 20:06:14 <dihedral> imo gnome3 is lacking a lot of stuff, esp. customizability 20:06:28 *** NOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-36-168.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 20:07:32 <fonsinchen> we should write a WM called "vacuum" that combines all the misfeatures of kd4, gnome3 and unity ... 20:07:57 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-105-158.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:08:53 *** romazoon [romazoon@130-118.76-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:09:49 *** Twerkhoven[L] [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 20:10:01 <dihedral> fonsinchen, in openttd style :-P 20:10:22 *** romazoon [romazoon@130-118.76-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #openttd 20:10:23 *** douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-182-167.w109-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:10:40 <Zuu> ChoHag_: You can change the settings of running AIs. You do it from the AI-debug window. 20:11:12 <Zuu> Be aware though, that AIs tell OpenTTD which settings that are allowed to be changed in game. 20:11:41 <Zuu> The AI-debug window do not have a hotkey by default, so you need to pull down the ?-menu to the right and select it from there. 20:13:46 <dihedral> fonsinchen, how about enlightenment :-) 20:14:20 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing] 20:14:21 <fonsinchen> Oh, I have tried that some years ago and it felt unfinished. I guess not much has changed ... 20:14:30 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [Quit: Mutant Co-Op - C&C Renegade] 20:15:12 <fonsinchen> In fact blender has an interesting integrated window manager. People coming from other 3d modelling apps are always cursing it, but I did like it. 20:15:38 <fonsinchen> When I'm really bored I'll make a desktop WM from it. 20:21:46 <Eddi|zuHause> it's fun to watch the cat follow the mouse cursor with her head, but i'm afraid it will suddenly jump up and attack the screen :p 20:23:52 <Alberth> I have used twm for a long time in the past :p 20:24:07 <fonsinchen> how could you endure that? 20:24:31 <Alberth> what do you miss then? 20:24:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i have one particular annoying misfeature of kde4's wm. 20:24:43 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22423 /trunk/src/ (11 files in 2 dirs): -Document: some network stuff 20:24:46 *** Absurd-Mind [~peter@p5495913B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 20:25:18 <Eddi|zuHause> when i have a window and resize it to size A, then close and reopen it, it remembered size A. so far so good 20:25:20 <Alberth> I mostly use the mouse to point in which window to type. 20:25:37 <Eddi|zuHause> when i now maximise it, and de-maximise it, it also remembers size A 20:25:39 <fonsinchen> last time I tried twm I couldn't figure out how to resize windows and it wouldn't resize or place them in any sane way automatically ... 20:26:01 <Eddi|zuHause> but when i maximise it, close it, reopen it, and de-maximise it, then it doesn't go back to A, but to some default size 20:26:05 <frosch123> [22:25] <Alberth> I mostly use the mouse to point in which window to type. <- that's a must have on big screens 20:26:17 <Eddi|zuHause> i absolutely hate that 20:26:28 <frosch123> luckily almost every wm supports it 20:26:41 <frosch123> though not as stupid as fvwm did 20:27:03 <Alberth> frosch123: yeah, I cannot not live without it 20:27:08 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: if the screen is big enough, i fail to keep track of both where the mouse is and where the focus is 20:27:15 <Eddi|zuHause> there's also a problem with mouse focus, but maybe that's because of me not finding the setting yet 20:27:17 <frosch123> so it gets easier if there is only one thing to follow 20:27:34 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: oh, that wasn't a reply to you 20:27:48 <Eddi|zuHause> that was a followup to my previous line 20:28:14 <frosch123> another advantage is, that it completely prevents focus stealing 20:28:15 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, that focus bug is: when i drag&drop something into a window, that window doesn't get focus 20:28:18 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I seldomly use maximize 20:28:31 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i use it quite often, actually 20:29:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i have two positions from which i regularly access the computer. from desk-distance, and from tv-distance 20:29:47 <Eddi|zuHause> if i am on tv-distance, and i want to look something up on the internet, i maximise the browser and set large font 20:29:47 <Alberth> you must have long arms then :p 20:29:57 <Eddi|zuHause> then i don't have to get up 20:30:07 <Eddi|zuHause> i have wireless mouse/keyboard :p 20:30:50 * frosch123 hates everything which has batteries 20:31:13 <frosch123> they are always depleted when i need them 20:31:49 <Eddi|zuHause> it's ok, i just exchange them with the ones in the phone, takes less than a minute 20:32:16 <Eddi|zuHause> the keyboard batteries have never been empty 20:32:32 <Eddi|zuHause> the mouse has rechargables, last like two weeks or something 20:32:57 <Eddi|zuHause> haven't actually measured that 20:33:28 <frosch123> i am quite happy with wired stuff when the wires are long enough 20:33:53 <Eddi|zuHause> no, that wouldn't work here... 20:33:58 <frosch123> i am using an about 10 year old first-generation optical mouse 20:34:38 <frosch123> never had a mouse before which survived longer 20:35:27 <frosch123> though it is a bit "worn out" 20:40:34 *** KritiK [~Maxim@93-80-119-156.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 20:48:11 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590ff89e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:49:51 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 20:55:43 <Zuu> I only have a wrieless mouse for remote control at the TV. I miss the Logitech driver feature to map one of the several buttons as CTRL-key so I can zoom in firefox without a keyboard. However, from experience I know it's not a good idea to install the logitech point device drivers on a laptop if you want to keep the touch pad drivers as well. 20:57:46 <Eddi|zuHause> speaking of which, anyone know how i can configure a mouse button as ctrl on linux? 20:59:02 <andythenorth> bed time 20:59:05 *** andythenorth [~Andy@213.99.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has left #openttd [] 20:59:09 <Eddi|zuHause> and anyone know why amarok didn't scrobble anything on last.fm for over a year? 21:00:00 <Zuu> I don't think I ever got more than 5 buttons to work in Lunux (where button 4 and 5 is the scroll wheel). 21:00:37 <Eddi|zuHause> well, my mouse has 9 buttons 21:00:49 <Zuu> Or well, I got horizontal scroll to work on a laptop which was quite nice as in Firefox you can use it as back/forward. 21:01:31 <Eddi|zuHause> but mousewheel left/right are awful to use on this mouse 21:01:32 <Zuu> My wireless trackball have 7 buttons + scroll. 21:02:28 * Zuu still waits for a better trackball than the logitech model one that is probably > 10 year old by now. 21:09:05 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-78-102-233-195.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:12:36 *** aber [~Adium@gb049.stw.stud.uni-saarland.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:12:49 *** Dreamxtreme [~Dream@92.18.126.40] has quit [Quit: Nice Scotty, now beam my clothes up too!] 21:13:05 *** Dreamxtreme [~Dream@92.18.126.40] has joined #openttd 21:21:42 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-178-004-182-149.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.] 21:21:52 *** Sacro_ [~ben@adsl-178-78-95-75.karoo.kcom.com] has joined #openttd 21:24:13 *** Sacro [~ben@adsl-178-78-95-75.karoo.kcom.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:31:26 <planetmaker> good night 21:42:30 *** Juo [~Juo@cpc16-lewi15-2-0-cust395.2-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Juo] 21:47:02 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4db1ab83.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us!] 21:48:55 *** asilv [~as@h-62-142-161-134.joensuunelli.fi] has quit [Quit: asilv] 21:49:13 *** Juo_ [~Juo@cpc16-lewi15-2-0-cust395.2-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 21:49:53 *** Juo_ [~Juo@cpc16-lewi15-2-0-cust395.2-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 21:55:21 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19B26.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:55:23 *** ndh [~opera@dslb-088-073-085-219.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #openttd [] 22:03:18 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.76.207] has quit [Quit: Sleep.] 22:04:37 *** Dreamxtreme [~Dream@92.18.126.40] has quit [Quit: +++ OK ATH OK] 22:05:34 *** Dreamxtreme [~Dream@92.18.126.40] has joined #openttd 22:06:50 *** Dreamxtreme [~Dream@92.18.126.40] has quit [] 22:08:39 *** Dreamxtreme [~Dream@92.18.126.40] has joined #openttd 22:15:48 *** Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe21dc00-138.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 22:26:18 *** staN [~Miranda@p5B176188.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:28:23 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4d0cd6aa.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:12:39 <Terkhen> good night 23:13:33 <Wolf01> 'night all 23:13:37 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host219-229-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 23:15:38 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC4163.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 23:32:38 *** rhaeder [~quix0r@dslb-094-220-142-076.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 23:36:52 *** Sacro_ [~ben@adsl-178-78-95-75.karoo.kcom.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:37:13 *** rhaeder1 [~quix0r@dslb-188-100-209-140.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:38:03 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@2001:888:10:ce8::2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:46:43 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:48:40 *** rhaeder1 [~quix0r@dslb-188-109-240-176.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 23:54:43 *** rhaeder [~quix0r@dslb-094-220-142-076.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]