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Log for #openttd on 29th June 2011:
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06:43:22  <Terkhen> good morning
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07:33:53  <andythenorth> morninl
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07:41:36  <Terkhen> hi andythenorth
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08:12:09  <planetmaker> moin
08:12:10  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: I rather expected that reaction... as much as I don't understand it.
08:15:15  <planetmaker> sad to hear
08:15:40  <planetmaker> but it follows the "line" of not caring about inter-operability
08:17:59  <planetmaker> are we member of the AEIF? ;-)
08:18:17  <Eddi|zuHause> the what?
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08:30:29  <andythenorth> wtf google?
08:38:21  <Terkhen> European Association for Railway Interoperability?
08:39:06  <andythenorth> yes, but what's happened to google more importantly?
08:41:46  <Terkhen> works fine for me
08:42:00  <andythenorth> appearance has changed
08:42:07  <andythenorth> looks like something I'd design :P
08:42:13  <Terkhen> oh, that
08:42:22  * Terkhen does not like that
08:42:31  <andythenorth> I don't mind it :)
08:42:40  <andythenorth> but it's not the classic google
08:42:46  <Terkhen> I'm too used to the plain old google page, yes
08:42:57  <Terkhen> that instant search thing is already annoying enough
08:46:47  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see anything different about google
08:47:05  <andythenorth> maybe it's region specific
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09:41:50  <andythenorth> hmm
09:41:59  <andythenorth> original TTD depots don't have snow support
09:42:01  <andythenorth> lame
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09:46:36  <andythenorth> hmm
09:46:42  <andythenorth> so I shouldn't draw snow on hot things?
09:47:09  <andythenorth> so no snow on roof of aluminium plant, steel mill, forge, lime kiln, biorefinery, cement plant
09:48:39  <Ammler> andythenorth: realism sucks
09:48:51  <andythenorth> not according to the users
09:48:57  <Ammler> users sucks
09:50:15  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: depends on how good the heat isolation of the roof is
09:50:26  <andythenorth> sounds like realism :P
09:50:33  <andythenorth> how good is the heat isolation of 1 pixel?
09:50:41  <andythenorth> does it depend on the manufacturer of your screen?
09:50:42  <Eddi|zuHause> high :p
09:50:47  <andythenorth> and if you have crt of lcd / tft?
09:50:53  <andythenorth> of / or
09:51:33  <Eddi|zuHause> the best one has a CRT TV. it has lots of snow
09:51:52  <andythenorth> so we need to extend nfo
09:52:00  <andythenorth> cb 17D: check type of users display
09:52:18  <andythenorth> I will need to draw 8 levels of snow, from none-lots
09:52:21  <andythenorth> and display accordingly
09:52:25  <andythenorth> all possible I'm sure
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09:53:43  <andythenorth> Ammler: could you post your helpful 'realism sucks' principle in the FIRS thread? :P
09:54:16  <Ammler> :-)
09:56:10  <Ammler> andythenorth: people just lack of creativity, like with direction of light or wind
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10:41:22  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: any suggestion then about the track types or do we then just go for your suggested set of tracks - after all DB* sets take longer than DNF to releases ;-)
10:43:40  <Ammler> can't you use nutracks?
10:44:29  <Ammler> ah no, nml
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10:47:23  <michi_cc> planetmaker: Deciding on track types makes only sense after the whole core engine list is finished (including SBB/ÖBB and whatever else initially should be there) so we know which axle weights make sense.
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10:49:17  <planetmaker> michi_cc: somewhat. Though I even think it need not be necessarily one track set
10:49:41  <planetmaker> After all we're going to test for availability of track types anyway ... so it'll be quite compatible
10:50:06  <Eddi|zuHause> the intention of my schema was that one can more easily pick out which of the railtypes to take and which to leave out
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10:52:09  <planetmaker> yes, exactly
10:52:10  <Eddi|zuHause> we don't need MB's approval at all
10:53:03  <michi_cc> Looking at the current DB timeline, a usable scheme would be A, B, Be, D, De, De-highspeed. Track type C instead of D would mean introducing highspeed already in 1957, because that's the first engine with >20t axle weight.
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10:53:29  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: no, of course not. But it would have been nice to at least agree on a tracks
10:54:05  <planetmaker> because having zillions of nearly identical track type labels is eventually going to defy the purpose of the whole idea
10:54:05  <michi_cc> If it's only about the labels, Eddi's scheme is totally okay. We can always have a fallback to mb's labels.
10:54:25  <Eddi|zuHause> yep
10:54:53  <Eddi|zuHause> then the only problem is a future dbset wouldn't work with our track set
10:54:57  <planetmaker> yes, we can. As said, I'm in this context mostly concerned about needless introduction of nearly identical labels. Which makes in needlessly complicated in the future
10:55:09  <planetmaker> Like stupid trpical wood vs. wood cargo labels
10:55:13  <michi_cc> The current labels of DBrails only say low axle weight, high axle weight, which is not very specific.
10:55:13  <Ammler> does DB/Germany have narrow gauge?
10:55:21  <planetmaker> yes
10:55:36  <planetmaker> OHE for example and the Harzer Schmalspurbahn
10:55:43  <planetmaker> though they might not exactly be DB
10:55:43  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: in east germany a bit more than in west germany
10:55:59  <Eddi|zuHause> saxony has an extensive 750mm network
10:56:04  <michi_cc> We could have our track set detect DBSet and then provide the matching labels for compatibility.
10:56:07  <Ammler> we have lots of them and some are connected to city tram lines
10:56:25  <Eddi|zuHause> the Harzquerbahn/Selketalbahn is 1000mm
10:56:43  <Eddi|zuHause> and on RÃŒgen there's also a network, but i'm not sure if it's 1000mm
10:58:10  <Ammler> do you plan to support narrow gauge?
10:58:47  <Eddi|zuHause> no plan yet, but an option
11:00:15  <planetmaker> IMHO if that's supported, only as an option, not as default.
11:00:21  <planetmaker> Similar to the epochs / regions
11:01:16  <michi_cc> Narrow gauge could even be a separate NewGRF, there's no need to put all into a single file.
11:01:40  <Eddi|zuHause> narrow gauge has a problem of justifying its existence in the game. what is the advantage over standard gauge?
11:02:04  <Eddi|zuHause> could do it as tram
11:02:30  <planetmaker> quite right. It could be completely separate
11:02:58  <planetmaker> probably even should. Those engines cannot mix anyway
11:03:33  <Eddi|zuHause> CENS - Central European Narrowgauge Set
11:03:33  <michi_cc> Right now: nothing. But I'm thinking about a) extending the NewGRF curve speed limit control so that narrow gauge can have a higher curve speed limit than default and standard gauge a lower curve speed limit (and highspeed maybe an even lower limit), and b) infrastructure maintenance
11:03:45  <planetmaker> CNES :-P
11:04:40  <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: that only works if curve limits are really low. as narrow gauge doesn't usually have high speed anyway
11:06:25  <Eddi|zuHause> 2x45° with 1 diagonal rail: 15km/h, 2x45° with 3 diagonal: 30km/h, and so on
11:09:00  <Ammler> I would wait for roadtypes ;-)
11:11:39  <michi_cc> Curve limits could be lower IMHO, even a curve with just 1 diagonal rail is already 88 km/h (or even higher per NewGRF control), which e.g. for CETS means that the only prussian engines where curve speeds matter at all are the S engines, everything else is below 88 km/h anyway.
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11:13:26  <michi_cc> Does anyone know if any of the existing railtype GRFs is using prop 11 (curve speed advantage)?
11:14:19  <Eddi|zuHause> narrow gauge could benefit from being a road/rail hybrid, i.e. being tram in cities (able to run along roads) and being rails outside cities (diagonal rails, etc.)
11:15:36  <Eddi|zuHause> one thing that's especially silly with curve speeds is that they depend on train length
11:15:46  <michi_cc> Bah, Nutracks does, which doesn't make it easier.
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11:17:26  <Eddi|zuHause> that's always a problem with changing a "grown" spec :)
11:17:51  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: but you can change that by at least the vehicle properties ("Tilt")
11:18:08  <planetmaker> and possibly by means of the railtype, too. I haven't looked at that for a bit
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11:19:42  <michi_cc> Prop 11 right now is quite useless because it is very coarse and doesn't allow decreasing at all. Decreasing is easy, just interpret it as a signed byte, but can still only change it in increments of 50% of the base curve speed.
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11:44:05  <Eddi|zuHause> proposal: set an explicit speed for one of the short curves, and then a linear factor how the longer curves behave in relation to that
11:51:48  <Eddi|zuHause> (linear factor may be fixed-point, e.g. 0x08 => *1.5, 0x10 => *2, 0x18 => *2.5, 0x20 => *3)
11:54:46  <Eddi|zuHause> something's not quite right there yet
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11:59:09  <Moustachio> Huh.
11:59:13  *** Moustachio is now known as MNIM
11:59:14  <MNIM> better.
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12:08:21  <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: That could work. I have to check out the curve speed calculation in OTTD first though, not sure how the speed is done currently.
12:10:22  <Eddi|zuHause> i think i've looked at that code once. was pure magic
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13:28:52  <MNIM> Eddi|zuHause: pure magic as "WOAH WTF AWESOME" or "WTF is happening here?"
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13:30:27  <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: http://www.retrologic.com/jargon/M/magic.html <- meaning 2.
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13:42:22  <andythenorth> meh
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13:47:45  <planetmaker> muh!
13:47:48  <andythenorth> mah
13:47:55  <Eddi|zuHause> wau
13:47:58  <planetmaker> miau
13:48:40  <andythenorth> about settings
13:48:47  <andythenorth> I don't like them
13:48:51  <andythenorth> perhaps they could be better
13:48:58  <Eddi|zuHause> combo breaker!
13:49:18  <planetmaker> andythenorth: just as you wrote: I think we agree on the 'could be better' part ;-)
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13:51:09  <andythenorth> we should do something about it
13:51:14  <andythenorth> I would suggest a 'big change'
13:51:23  <andythenorth> then everyone will all be pissed off at once
13:51:32  <andythenorth> incremental stuff will lead to months of whining
13:51:38  <andythenorth> and the possibility of reverting
13:51:46  <andythenorth> whereas a big change is so big that revert is out of the question
13:53:27  <Eddi|zuHause> i think everybody agrees that "something" needs to be done
13:53:45  <Eddi|zuHause> this is totally not the point. the question is *WHAT* should be done?
13:58:47  <__ln__> what's with the settings?
13:59:37  <Eddi|zuHause> they are unweildy, too many, not very well explained, ...
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14:03:55  <__ln__> oh, that
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14:08:39  <andythenorth> we need to stop talking about settings and stop patching :P
14:09:15  <andythenorth> unrelated - I am working on other apps at the moment.  I'd say spec is worth 20% at best, prototyping is worth 80% :P
14:09:51  <andythenorth> planetmaker: do you want to pick up the gui project again?
14:10:03  <andythenorth> most of my newgrfs are stalled due to boredom, or waiting on other stuff....
14:10:29  <andythenorth> FISH is stuck because I'm sick of drawing boats, and DanMacK has lost his love of spriting
14:10:36  <andythenorth> FIRS awaits nml conversion
14:10:40  <andythenorth> HEQS is done
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14:20:13  <MNIM> a bit of both, then, I suppose
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14:29:31  <planetmaker> andythenorth: in principle yes. But I fear I won't have the time in the next weeks to really get such thing off the ground
14:29:44  <planetmaker> so not before end of the year from my part, I fear
14:29:45  <andythenorth> :(
14:29:50  <andythenorth> :)
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14:32:09  <lugo> that would have been a nice tread for the bipolar smilie  :):
14:32:24  <planetmaker> before that I guess I should (yet again) rework my gridlines-as-gui-option patch queue ;-)
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14:45:12  <Scuddles> When did DanMacK
14:45:32  * andythenorth assumes there is more question coming
14:45:43  <Scuddles> Sorry, there wasn't D:
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17:41:48  <Wolf01> hello
17:46:48  <andythenorth> hello
17:47:07  <Wolf01> uh, do I ping 5 minutes now?
17:47:29  * andythenorth went to the shop
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17:53:24  <planetmaker> pong @ Wolf01 ;-)
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17:56:56  <Rubidium> pang! ;)
17:59:08  <supermop__> num pang
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18:53:04  * andythenorth considers replacing FIRS glass works with TTD original printing works
18:54:17  <andythenorth> hmm
18:54:26  <andythenorth> I could repaint the opengfx version
18:54:30  <andythenorth> two birds, one stone
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19:09:21  <supermop> wait, why?
19:13:03  <andythenorth> why?
19:13:07  <andythenorth> why not?
19:14:10  <andythenorth> FIRS glass works does suck a lot
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19:56:20  <andythenorth> planetmaker: interested in a printing works replacement?  :)
19:56:20  <andythenorth> http://tt-foundry.com/misc/new_glass_works.png
20:00:22  <Prof_Frink> Smashing.
20:00:30  <andythenorth> ain't done yet ;)
20:00:46  <andythenorth> that one would compress into about 16 colours currently :P
20:02:14  <Ammler> you don't like the ogfx version?
20:02:49  <andythenorth> you want me to answer that honestly, or diplomatically?
20:03:08  <Ammler> not at all, I guess :-P
20:03:55  <andythenorth> it's not nice to criticise other people's art :)
20:04:18  <andythenorth> when my work is criticised, it makes me more sad than it should, if I was being rational
20:04:21  <Ammler> I don't think, you would hurt zyph
20:04:45  <andythenorth> although criticism does make me work harder sometimes
20:05:03  <Ammler> you critism yourself the most :-P
20:05:33  <andythenorth> arp
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20:42:33  <frosch123> night
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20:57:18  <V453000> andythenorth: just dont make FIRS look like opengfx please :)
20:57:31  <andythenorth> ok
20:57:41  <andythenorth> a user request I can happily meet
20:57:43  <andythenorth> ;)
20:57:49  <V453000> :P
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21:02:51  <andythenorth> compare & contrast: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/new_glass_works_2.png
21:03:57  <Ammler> andythenorth: V453000 has no clu
21:04:04  <Ammler> don't listen to beer
21:04:37  <XeryusTC2> instead listen to the voice of reason: Ammler!
21:05:01  <V453000> andythenorth: I guess we can agree which one is better :P
21:05:10  <andythenorth> which one? :P
21:05:14  <Ammler> ah, say hi to most used highlight :-P
21:05:38  <V453000> the not-opengfx one of course :P
21:05:52  <andythenorth> are you sure that's not beer talking?
21:05:59  <V453000> quite
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21:06:20  <Ammler> he can't talk without
21:08:50  * andythenorth is not going to repaint whole of opengfx :P
21:10:07  <Ammler> your sprites are too good for ogfx
21:11:24  <Ammler> then we couldn't have those nice talks anymore, which base graphics are nicer :-)
21:13:44  <andythenorth> hmm
21:13:51  <andythenorth> I could probably redraw some part of opengfx
21:18:34  <andythenorth> how do I get latest opengfx?
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21:25:18  <andythenorth> opengfx isn't on bananas?
21:25:25  <Ammler> andythenorth: as the master of the devzone, you do not really ask that?
21:25:42  <andythenorth> I can compile the checkout I have
21:25:48  <andythenorth> I just wondered how other people would get it
21:25:51  <Ammler> it is also on bananas
21:26:08  <Ammler> or as distro package on linux or via windows installer
21:26:16  <Ammler> just osx user have troubles
21:26:36  <andythenorth> ok I find it
21:26:44  <andythenorth> I was looking in wrong bananas
21:26:57  <Ammler> yeah, it isn't a newgrf :-P
21:35:26  <andythenorth> oops :m
21:37:36  <andythenorth> night
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21:57:00  <Terkhen> good night
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22:08:14  <lord-carlos> Hi
22:08:52  <lord-carlos> how can i connect two towns by bus?
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22:09:43  <lord-carlos> It wont let me do it the way it works with two busstations in the same town
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22:15:33  <lord-carlos> mhh, i think it's just too much apart?
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22:17:15  <Ammler> lord-carlos: you play yacd?
22:18:03  <lord-carlos> what is yacd?
22:18:56  <lord-carlos> just installed openTTD today
22:20:29  <lord-carlos> man i suck at this game
22:23:34  <lord-carlos> i build another station, busfrom town to town works now
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