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00:00:08 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 00:00:20 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 00:13:04 *** seandasheep [~seandashe@85.211.204.194] has quit [Quit: I love my HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-] 01:06:07 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:d170:6481:c555:be9b] has quit [Quit: bye] 01:28:12 *** fjb [~frank@p5DDFE752.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:21:12 <Eddi|zuHause> <MNIM> considering germany before WW1 wasn't a single country, while austria was. <- problem is that the process was reversed, in austria, railways started out as state railways and then were privatised, while in germany railways started out as private and were then taken over by the states 02:22:02 <Eddi|zuHause> also, austria was not really "one country" either 02:29:18 *** Sevalecan [~Sevalecan@66-227-145-102.dhcp.bycy.mi.charter.com] has joined #openttd 03:14:56 *** avdg [~avdg@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: bye - http://dev.openttdcoop.org - never quits] 03:14:56 *** DJNekkid [~djnekkid@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: bye - http://www.openttdcoop.org] 03:15:32 *** V453000 [~V453000@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: You must construct additional PYLONS to get me back!] 03:16:02 *** V453000 [~V453000@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 03:16:02 *** DJNekkid [~djnekkid@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 03:16:32 *** avdg [~avdg@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 04:56:02 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B72BDD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:56:17 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B72997.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 05:18:58 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 05:58:48 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 06:09:22 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 06:12:31 *** LordAro [56951e1e@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 06:12:34 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e090e25.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:12:56 <LordAro> mornings 06:14:06 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [] 06:15:56 <planetmaker> moin 06:17:02 <LordAro> how on earth has WmDOT got more downloads on bananas than AroAI? WmDOT's only been out a couple of weeks... 06:17:49 <LordAro> wait, oh yes... 1.1API for AroAI 06:18:15 <LordAro> in that case... why on earth don't people upgrade? :) 06:18:39 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@195-240-99-235.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd 06:24:08 *** Pikka [~Figgy@d58-111-88-82.rdl800.qld.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 06:43:09 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 06:53:23 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC50A7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 06:55:52 <Terkhen> good morning 07:04:17 <Pikka> good morning Terkhen 07:16:12 *** Juo [~Juo@cpc11-acto2-2-0-cust244.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:25:48 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 07:33:54 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 07:33:58 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 07:34:49 <Pikka> good morning Brianetta and Alberth 07:35:06 <Brianetta> Good morning, PikkaBird (: 07:35:13 <Alberth> mornink Pikka 07:37:45 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-5d822e1f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 07:38:00 <LordAro> mornings Terkhen, Pikka, Brianetta and Alberth :) 07:38:24 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@78-80-200-5.tmcz.cz] has joined #openttd 07:38:42 *** Juo [~Juo@87-194-64-202.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 07:39:08 *** Juo [~Juo@87-194-64-202.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:39:23 *** Juo [~Juo@87-194-64-202.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 07:39:47 <Brianetta> Let's nto allow this to become the fish scene from Monty Python's Meaning of Life (: 07:42:29 <__ln__> @base 10 26 1241431150 07:42:29 <DorpsGek> __ln__: 40CG4FO 07:43:07 <planetmaker> base 26, eh? 07:43:52 <__ln__> well alright, 36 would be more logical and effective 07:44:00 <planetmaker> 42 :-P 07:44:06 <__ln__> @base 10 36 1241431150 07:44:06 <DorpsGek> __ln__: KJ46EM 07:44:11 <planetmaker> but more difficult 07:44:33 <planetmaker> though... öÀÌÃÚé might then suffice to complement it 07:44:33 <peter1138> @base 36 16 HELLOTHERE 07:44:34 <DorpsGek> peter1138: 647B8834C91FA 07:44:45 <peter1138> @base 36 16 OPENTTD 07:44:45 <DorpsGek> peter1138: C857B48B1 07:45:01 <peter1138> dorpsgek is my new ipv6 address decider 07:45:01 <planetmaker> :-) 07:53:34 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-5d822e1f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us!] 07:55:42 * SpComb steals one of peter1138's IPv6 addresses 07:57:50 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-5d822e1f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 08:01:59 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19A53.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 08:07:03 <peter1138> just one? 08:07:25 <peter1138> i have 79228162514264337593543950336 available... 08:14:54 * Pikka steals 79228162514264337593543950335 08:16:51 <peter1138> DAMN IT 08:19:43 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 08:27:05 <dihedral> good morning ladies 08:44:54 <Pikka> good morning dihedral 09:00:37 <dihedral> hello Pikka ;-) 09:27:30 *** uni4dfx [~uni4dfx@89-212-176-193.dynamic.t-2.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:45:14 *** andythenorth [~Andy@78-86-194-127.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 09:45:19 *** andythenorth [~Andy@78-86-194-127.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has left #openttd [] 10:06:54 *** ar3kaw [~ident@ecz225.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 10:10:02 *** ar3kaw [~ident@ecz225.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:10:18 *** ar3kaw [~ident@ecz225.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 10:13:39 *** ar3k [~ident@ecz225.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:04:53 *** Chillosophy [~Chillosop@ip91350749.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #openttd 11:18:07 <LordAro> Alberth: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/375/ <-- replies to your comments. http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/376/ <-- current patch 11:20:08 <LordAro> (replies to your commetns marked with '>>>>>') 11:31:33 *** ar3k [~ident@ebk58.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 11:38:52 *** ar3kaw [~ident@ecz225.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:41:17 *** Juo [~Juo@87-194-64-202.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Juo] 11:43:47 *** Chillosophy [~Chillosop@ip91350749.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [] 11:44:03 *** Chillosophy [~Chillosop@ip91350749.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #openttd 11:44:27 *** Chillosophy [~Chillosop@ip91350749.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [] 11:44:42 *** Chillosophy [~Chillosop@ip91350749.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #openttd 12:09:47 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-009-117.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 12:24:08 *** Juo [~Juo@87-194-64-202.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 12:32:34 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 12:35:17 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 2*25835+6*24775 12:35:17 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 200320 12:37:02 <Pikka> bee bee el 12:37:07 *** Pikka [~Figgy@d58-111-88-82.rdl800.qld.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:46:45 <Belugas> hello 12:48:04 <LordAro> hi Belugas 12:48:11 <Alberth> LordAro: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/381/ some explanations to the answers of my comments to your patch 12:48:21 <Alberth> hi sir Belugas 12:48:33 <LordAro> niely timed :) thanks 12:48:52 <LordAro> s/niely/nicely/ 12:49:09 * Alberth is unaware of any timing issue :p 12:49:14 <LordAro> but of course openttdcoop is 'Internal Server Error' 12:49:50 <Alberth> 'internal', right :) 12:50:15 <planetmaker> hm, which? 12:50:22 <LordAro> not my fault, blame Ammler :) 12:50:31 <planetmaker> afaik our servers are all up and running fine 12:50:38 <LordAro> planetmaker: the link above 12:50:47 <planetmaker> which? the paste server? 12:50:53 <planetmaker> delete the cookies 12:51:13 <planetmaker> the server is fine but stale sessions produce that. Deleting cookies helps in that case 12:51:41 <planetmaker> (yes, even a stale session shouldn't give you that result. But unfortunately it does) 12:52:06 <LordAro> it was fine a moment ago 12:52:09 <Alberth> hmm, perhaps because I used the 'reply' button? 12:52:22 <planetmaker> LordAro, but it works for me [TM] 12:53:15 <Belugas> hello Lord Aro, hello King Alberth 12:53:22 <LordAro> fixed. t'was cookies 12:53:41 * Belugas wants some! 12:55:17 <Alberth> unfortunately, I only have industry zones 13:10:10 <Belugas> bad taste for cookies 13:10:18 * Belugas does not want anymore 13:13:41 *** thinksteve [~stephan@p579BDB52.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 13:14:12 <thinksteve> Hi there, is it possible to force openttd 1.1.0 to load save games although grf files are missing? 13:19:33 <Hirundo> Why would you want to do that? what grfs are missing? 13:20:37 <thinksteve> These are old savegames, from the time when opengfx was inofficially shipped in separate packages. 13:21:39 <LordAro> Alberth: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/382/ <-- replies to replies to replies :) (prefixed with '@@@') 13:22:15 <Terkhen> thinksteve: IIRC the openttdcoop newgrf pack includes those 13:22:21 <Alberth> opengfx has nothing to do with grfs 13:22:41 <Terkhen> Alberth: the first tasters of opengfx are newgrfs 13:22:42 <Ammler> shouldn't scenario_developer allow that? 13:23:05 <Alberth> Ammler: a savegame? 13:24:06 <thinksteve> Should have read manual first. Option '-g' allows autoloading savegames, even those with incomplete newgrf sets. :) 13:24:24 <Ammler> really? :-o 13:24:40 <Terkhen> strange :P 13:24:54 <Ammler> I would guess, it just replaces your savegame with a random map 13:25:05 <thinksteve> Please, do not fix that. :D 13:25:22 <Ammler> did you try scenario_developer? 13:26:50 <Ammler> well, it would be a bug, if openttd does not allow such saves ;-) 13:27:04 <Alberth> LordAro: line 91: you should read about destructors :) 13:27:27 <thinksteve> Do'h, can't remove the unwanted grfs in-game. 13:27:44 <LordAro> Alberth: of course, i forgot about that :) 13:27:53 <Ammler> thinksteve: [15:25] <Ammler> did you try scenario_developer? 13:28:12 <LordAro> thinksteve: then you clearly haven't tried scenario_developer setting yet ;) 13:28:35 <Alberth> LordAro: line 134 seems not so needed imho (just set it always). 136 what does 'filesize' do? 13:29:10 <thinksteve> Sorry, is that one documented, Ammler 13:29:57 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 13:30:26 <thinksteve> Again, should have read the wiki, before asking, thank you. 13:32:16 <Alberth> Line 191: It looks like there is room, you'll probably have to try a few times and see how it improves the situation. 13:32:16 <Alberth> Another possible direction is that y=false; if (x == 5) y = true is equivalent to y = (x == 5) which is shorter and often simpler. 13:34:38 <Alberth> about 30: I can come up with sentences, but then I might just as well write the whole patch, since you then just have to copy/paste the text 14:05:39 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 25.6/15.57 14:05:39 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 1.64418754014 14:05:56 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 18.2/18.95 14:05:56 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 0.960422163588 14:06:16 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 18.2/18.95*2 14:06:16 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 1.92084432718 14:07:14 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 18.9/23.05*2 14:07:14 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 1.6399132321 14:25:43 *** andythenorth [~Andy@78-86-194-127.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 14:25:44 *** andythenorth [~Andy@78-86-194-127.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has left #openttd [] 14:33:58 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 14:34:57 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [] 14:49:49 <LordAro> Alberth: thanks (again) 14:49:56 * LordAro saves copy of logs 14:55:25 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@195-240-99-235.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:10:19 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 15:11:54 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 15:17:56 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 15:37:34 *** LordAro [56951e1e@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 15:52:58 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:57:01 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 16:01:39 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-86-49-8-98.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 16:19:13 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 16:27:43 *** davis [~b@p4FED0D0C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:28:50 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590ff3d9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 16:29:24 *** davis [~b@p4FED018E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 16:34:13 *** bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has joined #openttd 16:44:19 *** LordAro [56951e1e@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 16:54:37 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 16:55:11 <dihedral> andybody a magento hero in here? 17:03:00 <Sacro> I'm more cyan 17:04:06 *** Juo [~Juo@87-194-64-202.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Juo] 17:11:19 * Zuu got syncron ( = non-asyncron) upgrading of airports to wok. 17:11:52 <Zuu> Left is to make it solid against save/load and make it asyncron so it blocks the AI for less time while upgrading airports. 17:12:09 <__ln__> airport wok sounds like food. 17:12:33 <Zuu> :-D 17:15:13 <SpComb> syn-cron 17:18:42 <__ln__> http://spockisnotimpressed.tumblr.com/ 17:19:40 *** krinn [~krinn@197.54.71.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #openttd 17:19:56 <krinn> hi 17:20:28 <krinn> i'm looking for wiki entry or a doc on how openttd handle tile height (i mean how it influence neightbor when raising or lowing a tile) 17:22:07 <planetmaker> you only raise or lower corners ;-) 17:22:44 <Terkhen> I remember reading something about half heights and so on, but I don't remember where 17:22:51 <krinn> yep, but sometimes trying to lower a corner cannot be done if an object blocking a tile, but it's not the one your lowering 17:23:27 <Terkhen> but then the lowering affects the tile with the object somehow 17:23:59 <krinn> yes Terkhen and i need to find how the effect is apply 17:24:24 <krinn> so the lower/raise on a tile i could then predict which other tiles will get affect to take also care of them 17:24:38 <planetmaker> krinn: simple: adjacent corners can only differ by height 1 at most 17:25:06 <planetmaker> if a change would result in a bigger difference, openttd tries to terraform other tiles as needed 17:25:37 <krinn> yep i saw that planetmaker that's that that i need to know: how openttd decide 17:25:55 <planetmaker> how "how"? 17:26:04 <krinn> it's not for human playing (there's no disaster where a mount collapse because i lower the bad tile :) ) 17:26:13 <krinn> it's for an ai 17:26:28 <planetmaker> oh, humans can do that, too. 17:26:37 <planetmaker> And they can ruin themselves being unaware of that 17:26:40 <planetmaker> seen that, been there 17:26:49 <krinn> lol with water yes 17:26:54 <Terkhen> the method is not really recursive, but you can treat it as a recursive call on all adjacent corners until the terraforming needs no further changes 17:26:56 <planetmaker> use the cost estimate for that. AIs should have that option, too 17:27:10 <krinn> but for an ai it's more problematic 17:27:11 <Terkhen> if height difference > 1 -> terraform else stop 17:27:19 <Terkhen> at a very simplistic level 17:27:35 <planetmaker> yep. otherwise... terraform_cmd.cpp 17:28:03 <Terkhen> IIRC the real method adds corners to a list and iterates through them until everything is correct 17:28:12 <planetmaker> but I really see not how an AI would profit from that knowledge 17:28:14 <Terkhen> but... yes, if you need to know it in detail then the code is best :) 17:28:16 <krinn> i have a working terraforming now 17:28:31 <krinn> but i'm trying to predict its result without actually do it 17:28:42 <krinn> it's not like human where you can just see if it will work 17:29:09 <planetmaker> hm, ok, yes :-) 17:29:52 <Terkhen> since AIs execute code more slowly than OpenTTD, isn't it better to try the terraform and worry about it only if it actually fails? 17:30:21 <krinn> nope, a failure mean lost money and maybe more terraforming to undo your previous try 17:30:27 <krinn> hence the prediction first 17:30:32 <Terkhen> a failed terraform does nothing 17:30:42 *** Juo [~Juo@cpc11-acto2-2-0-cust244.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 17:30:42 <Terkhen> oh, you want to predict ALL terraforming 17:30:53 <Terkhen> that will be quite costly on cpu time :) 17:30:54 <krinn> nope only mine 17:30:59 <planetmaker> As I understand you want to programme the "eyes" of your AI... 17:31:08 <krinn> exact planetmaker 17:31:13 <Terkhen> what I mean is: check ALL terraform steps you plan to do before actually doing them 17:31:23 <SpComb> easier to ask for forgiveness than get permission 17:31:23 <LordAro> krinn: good luck :) 17:31:38 <Terkhen> IMO an heuristic would be better than checking everything 17:31:48 <Terkhen> sounds too costly in cpu time 17:31:50 <SpComb> OpenTTD obviously needs transactions.. 17:31:57 <Zuu> hmm, IIRC, terraforming is executed even if not all tiles can be terraformed as requested via the API. 17:32:18 <krinn> say a mount you need to lower its base, for human it's easy to see what will then be need to be lower and even easy to see a rail on top of mount would not make that possible, so you'll then raise it a bit and terraform higher instead of trying to lower the mount 17:32:28 <SpComb> what if you predict your terraforming, it's fine, then you start to terraform, and someone else starts building concurrently? :) 17:32:31 <Terkhen> Zuu: probably, as it works that way for human players too 17:32:49 <Terkhen> but humans don't calculate everything either 17:32:54 <krinn> SbComb: this is acceptable, lost money because of unkown event 17:32:56 <Terkhen> they apply their "expert knowledge" :P 17:33:00 <planetmaker> Zuu: iirc, yes... but never to an extend that a single invalid tile would be the result. Thus each corner's change is iterated and then executed. Then repeat with the next asked corner 17:33:07 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 17:33:07 <Zuu> For rail/road building the API is more restrictive and returns fales (failure) if not the entire stretch can be built. 17:33:18 <SpComb> but transactional game state would solve all of this \o/ 17:33:32 <Terkhen> Zuu: it would be easy to provide an option for AIs to work the same as for players 17:33:47 <Terkhen> I did that change, but if requested that option could be added 17:34:00 <Terkhen> (regarding roads and rails) 17:34:13 <Zuu> Don't get me wrong, I very much like the way the rail/road API works that it returns false if there is a failure somewhere. 17:34:32 <Terkhen> my thinking was that it was more useful that way :) 17:34:35 <Zuu> That makes more sense to an AI than the GUI behaviour. 17:34:37 <Terkhen> but for terraforming... it is more difficult 17:34:47 <Terkhen> the AI can always restrict terraforming to single corner steps 17:35:19 <Zuu> Anyway, I wait with excitment for krinn's masterpice in terraforming :-) 17:35:30 <LordAro> :) 17:35:42 <krinn> well, code is ready 17:36:05 <krinn> but i need to predict its result to not let the ai working on a sure failure 17:36:42 <Terkhen> krinn: your best bet is to emulate the actual code that checks corners 17:36:45 <krinn> and as it's terraforming, just checking if tiles you are about to terraform could be change by you (buildable) isn't enough because of affected near tiles 17:36:58 <Terkhen> and if you can find a faster method for checking them... that would be awesome :P 17:37:19 <planetmaker> and give that method to Zuu to implement in the superlib or so ;-) 17:37:20 <Terkhen> I gave it two tries, one of them was slower and the other much more complicated and mostly the same 17:37:35 <planetmaker> and yes, algorithmically faster... give that also to us ;-) 17:37:42 <Terkhen> the more height levels guys gave it another try, but it is only useful for really big tile selections 17:38:51 <krinn> i will check terraform.c as no infos seems to exist on that subject 17:39:00 <krinn> i'm a bit surprise none ask that before 17:39:53 <Terkhen> I don't know how AIs usually deal with this, but to my knowledge you are the first one to ask about this :P 17:40:14 <krinn> maybe because ai deal with this by terraforming until failure 17:40:18 <Zuu> Two improvements that I might look into is to detect hills and holes (anti-hills) in the ground and even those out for airport placement. For now it just tries to level the entire airport area to the same level as the north corner of the airport. 17:40:29 <krinn> keep loosing money and just fuck the whole terran 17:40:59 <krinn> zuu i have resolve as counting each tile in the area 17:41:08 <krinn> and then sort the result by number 17:41:25 <krinn> and then just try higher to lower by number 17:41:38 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 17:42:30 <krinn> if you have 2 tiles at 3 height and 4 at 5 height, terraform then everyone at 5 first, and next try to terrform at everyone at 3 (hence the prediction need, else big money lost for each trys) 17:42:52 *** perk11 [~perk11@broadband-77-37-203-211.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #openttd 17:43:37 <Zuu> My AI don't remember the old state between the tries. :-p It just tries 5 times to find a spot to terraform and then gives up if it fails. 17:43:54 <krinn> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ai-dictator/repository/revisions/9068f0a6afef/entry/utils/tile.nut but code is still dirty & under dev 17:44:13 *** Biolunar_ [mahdi@blfd-d9bf00a8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 17:44:17 <Zuu> I've just added some randomization to it which has improved the succss rate a bit I think. 17:45:00 <krinn> i add priority for tiles, if we lower, work on higher tiles first (and vice versa) 17:45:03 <Zuu> Still, my CluelessPlus spend far more money on statues than terraforming I think :-) 17:45:14 <krinn> so you won't fail trying to lower a tile that is bellow one 17:45:26 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22691 /trunk/src/lang/ (greek.txt romanian.txt ukrainian.txt): 17:45:26 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:45:26 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: greek - 14 changes by kyrm 17:45:26 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: romanian - 1 changes by kkmic 17:45:26 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: ukrainian - 6 changes by Madvin 17:45:50 <Zuu> All that said, I got to get back working on upgrading of airports. :-) 17:46:21 <krinn> :) 17:46:43 <krinn> that's also why i work on terraform, bitchy airport upgrade are pain with big size need for them 17:47:12 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-86-49-8-98.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:47:50 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-86-49-8-98.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 17:47:56 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host152-94-dynamic.117-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 17:48:44 <Wolf01> hello 17:49:24 <krinn> hi 17:50:05 <Terkhen> hi Wolf01 17:50:33 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-5d822e1f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:52:52 <krinn> * The maximal amount of affected tiles (i.e. the tiles that incident with one of the corners above, is computed similiar to 17:52:52 <krinn> * 1 + 4 * \sum_{i=1}^{h_max} (i+1) = 1 + 2 * h_max + (h_max + 3). 17:53:05 <krinn> hihi just @ start of terraform_cmd.cpp 17:54:01 *** supermop_ [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd 17:54:55 <Terkhen> :P 17:58:33 <__ln__> Wolf01: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/11122304/demotivational-posters-history.jpg 17:58:45 <Wolf01> yeah 18:09:30 <krinn> hmmm looks hard, ttd api use IsTunnelInWay IsBridgeAbove...that's cheat ! we don't have those ones in our api :) 18:13:30 <Terkhen> you don't have functions for checking tunnel/bridge direction and lenght? 18:14:23 <krinn> nope only to check a tile for tunnel entry & exit 18:14:46 <krinn> so i cannot predict if a tunnel is bellow a tile except by finding all tiles on both direction for a tunnel entry 18:14:57 <krinn> can't let my ai scan the whole map to figure that 18:15:19 <Rubidium> if you know a tile is an entrance/exit you can deduce the level by the slope and lowest height of the tile 18:15:27 <Rubidium> level and direction 18:15:33 <krinn> but to know that, i need to scan the whole map 18:16:07 <krinn> it's ok if the tunnel is mine, i could just record where they are, but not when it's not mine 18:16:18 <Rubidium> if you terraform a 4x4 bit you need at most 4xmax_width + 4xmax_height 18:17:07 <krinn> at 16x16 influence scheme so 18:17:16 <Rubidium> and it's even less if you know the height you want to terraform to: just try each direction and stop if you reach a tile that's lower than your target depth 18:18:16 <Rubidium> hmm, aren't AI terraform level area commands 'either do everything or die'? 18:18:24 <Rubidium> I seem to remember a discussion about that 18:18:39 <krinn> yes, but itry to avoid the try 18:18:51 <krinn> 1/ not to destroy the land for nothing, and not to loose money 18:19:05 <Rubidium> huh? 18:19:10 <krinn> 2/ and not to increase my costs after trying another solve 18:19:12 <Rubidium> use the test state 18:19:29 <krinn> test state is weak it fail if tile is bellow another tile no ? 18:19:35 <Rubidium> http://noai.openttd.org/docs/trunk/classAITestMode.html <- only tests commands 18:20:12 <krinn> say a is up b, if i remove a then b, test will fail because when in test mode a will still be there 18:20:38 <Rubidium> nah, test mode doesn't create a new map state 18:21:07 <Rubidium> and it seems that LevelTiles doesn't what I thought it'd do 18:21:21 <krinn> i'll try that and see result 18:22:01 <Rubidium> so in test mode the only "sure" thing is raising or lowering one level by means of lowertile/raisetile 18:22:04 <krinn> but last time i check testmode was blocking because i think a was still there so b cannot be remove (but i admit by this time, i might have try remove b before a) 18:22:14 <krinn> yes, only that 18:22:22 <krinn> test mode will only say ok if you lower a 18:22:34 <krinn> if you really lower a, then testmode will say ok if you test to remove b 18:22:43 <Rubidium> it cannot remember state of previous tests, besides 'okay' and/or cost 18:23:09 <krinn> not when i try, but i might as i said have tried to remove b before a 18:23:49 <Rubidium> test mode uses the same test that is done before executing a command to see whether it will succeed (in MP) 18:24:16 <Rubidium> as such test mode is written in such a way that it may not influence anything state related 18:25:22 <krinn> i will do a test on with tile a bellow tile b and a rail on tile b to clear 18:25:39 <krinn> in theory, testmode should say yes for clear b, lower b, lower a 18:25:43 <peter1138> herpderp 18:26:07 <krinn> and no if it forget a state (b clear or b lowered) 18:26:41 <Rubidium> it forgets state 18:26:52 <krinn> so it could then only fail 18:27:53 <krinn> it's sad, because ai will get force to terraform blindly 18:28:05 <krinn> and many human don't like terraform testing :) 18:29:38 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 18:29:40 <krinn> to resume my predictions could only predict success by checking 4*tilestoteraform for clear state 18:29:51 <Rubidium> well, there are things that might be improved API wise for terraforming AIs, but the real question is: what is a good API for that? 18:29:56 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd 18:29:56 <andythenorth> hello 18:30:07 <andythenorth> yay 18:30:21 <andythenorth> my new wifi reaches the bathroom reliably :P 18:30:43 <krinn> maybe just giving away the bridge & tunnel should be enough 18:31:19 <krinn> i could scan all wanted tile for clear to build state + road/rail/ anything not buildable easy 18:31:51 <krinn> but without the tunnelbellowtile and bridgeuppertile, i can't seriously seek the whole map to find possible bridge/tunnel 18:32:51 <krinn> IsTunnelInWay && MayHaveBridgeAbove(tile) 18:33:46 <krinn> with the two we could then scan the 4 direction to get the direction of a tunnel or bridge and follow tiles until finding the entry/exit 18:34:35 <Rubidium> oh, you only need 2 directions ;) 18:35:16 <krinn> lol yes 18:35:31 <Rubidium> (preferably the shortest one to the edge) 18:35:53 <krinn> that's better for the iteration :p 18:36:05 *** gadafi [~c4d2d0ef@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 18:36:26 <krinn> lol just hope we're not playing against a mad human that love zillion meters tunnel length 18:37:17 <Terkhen> given how they like to annoy AIs you can bet they will do that :P 18:37:30 <krinn> lol 18:38:11 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has left #openttd [] 18:38:21 <krinn> must be why the ai have few trys that should hit as soon as tried, else at first sign of activity you can expect rail dropping where you wish terraform :) 18:41:03 <krinn> and we might not even need to find the tunnel direction if we get its height (not something openttd handle as it only care to check if tunnel is just bellow the tile you are about to lower) 18:41:39 <krinn> while an ai would prefer check if a tunnel is at the the height you wish to go 18:44:20 <krinn> do bridge have various height ? i see someone implement a GetBridgeHeight 18:44:35 <andythenorth> "is this fork still maintained and distributed?" <-wtf? 18:45:02 <andythenorth> the first post in the thread is dated June, and near-official binaries are being distributed. Is he trolling? 18:45:04 <andythenorth> (YACD thread) 18:46:01 <krinn> i would say yes, because he says fork 18:47:11 <Hirundo> I'd guess ignorance, not trolling 18:49:18 <krinn> "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." one of his best quote (if he really said that) 18:49:56 <Eddi|zuHause> most people didn't actually say the things that people say they said :p 18:50:51 <krinn> i know, and i also find this one strange coming out from einstein, but this one is credit to him in many sources 18:51:27 <Terkhen> IIRC many scientists are known to have said that before him 18:51:54 <Terkhen> oh, he asked it twice 18:51:55 <Terkhen> how cute 18:52:02 <krinn> and with internet, many sources could ack others source that are ack others... 18:52:03 <Terkhen> once for yacd, once for cargodist 18:53:33 * Rubidium wonders... what if SROTF would make a forum rule that states: "thread gets closed if someone asks for updates" 18:54:12 <planetmaker> haha :-) 18:54:15 <planetmaker> sounds good 18:54:20 <Eddi|zuHause> why is that the thread/patch author's fault? 18:55:00 <Rubidium> it's like Godwin's law, if the thread comes to that it's dead ;) 18:55:03 <Terkhen> because he is obviously not updating frequently enough :P 18:55:19 <Terkhen> if a random user comes and sees no updates for three days -> thread dead 18:55:57 <Rubidium> yeah, that should teach them 18:56:12 <Rubidium> or they get flogged by the rest of the forum 18:56:25 * krinn gone asking update in "Is OTTD getting to complex?" thread 18:57:01 <Rubidium> fine by me... leaves the whole terraforming problem in your lap ;) 18:57:06 *** remax [~d9e8ac47@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 18:57:10 <krinn> lol 18:57:11 <remax> hi al 18:57:13 <remax> l 18:57:18 <krinn> hi remax 18:57:36 *** ricky26 [~quassel@80.83.125.94] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:57:37 *** ricky26 [~quassel@80.83.125.94] has joined #openttd 18:57:40 *** remax [~d9e8ac47@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [] 18:57:54 <__ln__> http://testyourvocab.com/ 18:58:45 <Rubidium> those German connections aren't that stable anymore, it seems... or is his attention span just so short ;) 19:00:07 *** bodis [~bodis@cpc3-ando3-0-0-cust781.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:03:49 <krinn> lol wonder if i should allow my ai to build at water level, so human can play with that :) 19:05:06 <krinn> ahah there's the flooded event 19:05:34 <__ln__> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/freight/single-view/view/european-profile-wagons-reach-london.html 19:05:38 <krinn> you guys are too vicious 19:06:44 *** Chris_Booth_ [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:07:27 <krinn> english rail have diff width ? 19:10:19 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: not track width, but wagon width/height 19:11:55 <krinn> they never do anything like others 19:11:58 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:12:09 <andythenorth> it's because we do it first :P 19:12:11 *** Chris_Booth_ is now known as Chris_Booth 19:12:13 <Eddi|zuHause> well, they were kinda the first :p 19:12:17 <andythenorth> first mover advantage is a myth 19:14:28 *** gadafi [~c4d2d0ef@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:14:38 <Eddi|zuHause> it's like the "640k is probably enough" syndrome 19:15:28 <krinn> you mean that one is a myth ? 19:16:56 <andythenorth> it's fine as long as you have enough 640k sticks of RAM 19:17:46 <krinn> i think he said it, look at that quote, proof he might have said the other too 19:17:47 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: i mean it's an early design decision that bites you in the arse for the next centuries because the technology moved on 19:18:13 <krinn> oh i see now 19:18:28 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-25-210-214.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 19:19:19 <__ln__> did you know: sweden was a left-driving country until as late as 1967? 19:19:56 <krinn> no 19:20:18 <krinn> i was thinking just english colonies were doing it 19:20:40 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i did know 19:21:27 <krinn> well, earlier design is always a failure, look at eve 19:22:04 <__ln__> japan is also not an english colony 19:22:28 <krinn> what i said is right if you don't know japan also drive left :) 19:22:31 <Eddi|zuHause> austria was also a drive-on-left country 19:22:42 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure when they switched 19:22:44 <krinn> they aren't anymore? 19:22:50 <krinn> i was thinking they were still 19:23:02 <Eddi|zuHause> you're thinking australia 19:23:18 <krinn> ah yes mistake 19:23:30 <krinn> wasn't aware for austria too so 19:23:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i meant austria, as basically covering most of southeast europe pre-WWI 19:25:05 <krinn> why they change? 19:25:31 <Chris_Booth> Eddi|zuHause: you will probably find austria changed when the Nazi party took over in the 1930's 19:25:56 <Eddi|zuHause> Chris_Booth: yeah, i suspect that, but i have no source supporting that 19:26:14 <krinn> look better to swap if a tank is driving on your line 19:26:17 <Chris_Booth> nor do I. I was just speculating 19:27:07 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: taking over austria did not happen with tanks, they had an election with 99% "yes" outcome 19:27:21 <krinn> When Germany annexed Austria in 1938, Hitler ordered that the traffic should change from the left to the right side of the road 19:27:29 <krinn> from here http://users.telenet.be/worldstandards/driving%20on%20the%20left.htm 19:27:55 <krinn> oh italian were also driving left 19:28:05 <krinn> In Italy the practice of driving on the right first began in the late 1890s 19:28:30 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: interestingly, they also wanted to switch railway side, but they did not finish in all parts, so now there is a mixture of drive-on-left and drive-on-right in the austrian railway network 19:29:42 <krinn> didn't know so many countries were driving left at first 19:29:48 <krinn> interresting page 19:30:17 <krinn> Although no less than 82.9% voted ânoâ to the plebiscite, the Swedish parliament passed a law on the conversion to right-hand driving in 1963 LOL democracy at its best 19:31:05 <krinn> look that one, unusual switch, recent date : On 7 September 2009 Samoa (population 189,000) became the third country ever to change from right- to left-hand driving 19:32:48 <krinn> Algeria is state as driving right, lol they never visit it, algerian should be state driving crazy where you can 19:33:56 <andythenorth> india is driving left 19:34:03 <andythenorth> so 1/6 of world population 19:34:21 <krinn> i knew for india, english colony 19:34:26 <andythenorth> driving on the left is somewhat the official position 19:34:36 <andythenorth> actual driving side is more a matter for negotiation 19:34:54 <LordAro> i hear italy is somewhat similar :) 19:35:18 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: afair samoa was a german colony, hence driving on right, but now switched to left to align with the other islands nearby 19:35:29 <krinn> in italia it's more "stopping side and one will try to sell you a phone" 19:36:20 <krinn> the explain for left driving at first looks logic and true, with the horses and sword... 19:37:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't really buy the horse&sword argument 19:37:13 <andythenorth> there's some thing about people naturally turning to left or such 19:37:17 <andythenorth> statistically 19:37:44 <krinn> andythenorth, i think it's more depend on brain side at work for that 19:37:55 <andythenorth> hmm 19:38:03 <andythenorth> brain side may be somewhat bad science 19:38:20 <krinn> like left hand one use more right side of brain 19:39:55 <krinn> i doubt the french revolution story 19:40:56 <krinn> left or right, passing with a wagon was a sure sign of power 19:43:09 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-86-49-8-98.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:43:28 <Zuu> <krinn> hmmm looks hard, ttd api use IsTunnelInWay IsBridgeAbove...that's cheat ! we don't have those ones in our api :) <-- check SuperLib. It has something like that for bridges. 19:43:47 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-86-49-8-98.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 19:44:28 <krinn> you've made a prediction for tunnel or just check after error a tunnel is in the way ? 19:45:23 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:46:33 <Zuu> I don't do any preconditions for tunnels. 19:47:04 <Zuu> As far as I remember. But tunnels can easily be checked in test-mode given that you have enough money. 19:47:13 <krinn> you've put that in tile.nut ? 19:48:23 <krinn> the problem is not really finding a tunnel next to you, even without a tile check a simple error check would tell you there's one 19:48:36 <krinn> the problem is finding the tunnel while you are 2 tiles upper without digging 19:48:51 <Zuu> Yes Tile.GetBridgeAboveStart(tile, bridge_search_direction) 19:49:03 <krinn> see: why try dig 3 if you know 2 tiles bellow there's a tunnel 19:50:22 <Zuu> I see that problem yes. I guess you have to implement a method for that as that is not in the API. 19:51:09 <krinn> i don't think it could be done, because testmode forget you've just dig 19:51:23 <krinn> else we could have dig, dig, dig -> error tunnel on the way ! bingo tunnel found 19:52:41 <krinn> and openttd doesn't have it too, why would openttd care? it only have to answer can i dig there, yes or no, not to can dig there 3 times ? 19:53:28 <krinn> so except if not use in the terraform.cpp i think noone has create a gettunnelheight function like 19:55:29 <krinn> and your bridge function is limited to that to: it search for a bridge tile to north, when found, search the bridge direction, but you cannot answer if you have cross one as only start & end tile will answer i'm a bridge 19:55:56 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:57:08 <krinn> to be effective we would need to do that function, but on each tile of the map, not something really doable 19:57:20 <Zuu> My function will search the direction you give it. One of the 4 main directions until it finds a bridge start. 19:57:57 <krinn> yep but you cannot tell if there's a bridge, just that you've found a tile bridge, and tile bridge are only start & end tile 19:58:13 <bfrog> diagonal bridges? 19:58:22 <Zuu> Diagonal bridges don't exist 19:58:30 <krinn> hopefully :) 19:58:48 <bfrog> I wish I could just get a "autotrack" layer tool 19:58:55 <Zuu> IIRC it will check the bridge start and make sure the bride goes back to the tile that you give the function. 19:58:57 <bfrog> like, dude, draw me some double tracks with lights 19:59:00 <Zuu> Hence the name "Above" 19:59:45 <krinn> consider a radar, we can search horizontally or vertically where we ping a tile. But moving 10 tiles north, we need to ping 10 tiles to get sure no tunnel/bridge exist going E<>W while moving on a tile 20:01:01 <krinn> so 1 test N/W to check we're moving down a bridge, but also need to check all tiles E/W to get sure we're not crossing one 20:01:35 <Zuu> Indeed in your case you need that. 20:02:40 <krinn> as i said, no really doable as it's just to check 10 tiles north, for more tiles, we would need to scan the whole map nearly 20:02:56 <Zuu> But you don't need to scan all tiles in both directions if you think a bit. 20:03:03 <Zuu> if you have an area of tiles. 20:03:06 <krinn> yep just one 20:03:49 <krinn> because when you cross a bridge, its exit or entry is E or W, you don't care as you only need to find one, so only scanning in one direction, but still, that's a lot 20:05:52 <krinn> say i'm scanning 10 tiles north, i'm 15 tiles from the left part of the map, removing 2 tiles because a bridge need 1 tile entry+1 tile to connect it : you still endup scanning 13tiles*10 tiles 20:06:20 <krinn> just to move 10 tiles north, and with hope you're just 15 tiles near a border 20:10:10 <Zuu> Unless tha map is completely flat, you sooner or later hit a hill which terminate the possibility of a bridge. Thus the chance of scanning ~2048 tiles is quite low. 20:10:45 <krinn> hihi, nope you can hit a hill where a bridge is just upper 20:10:58 <krinn> but you are still under it and crossing it 20:11:09 <Zuu> And if the map is flat, you don't need to do any terraforming :-) 20:11:15 <krinn> lol true 20:12:15 <Hirundo> frosch123: Currently Action C prints a debug string to the console, would it be possible to add printf-like functionality to that? 20:14:01 <krinn> your downslope technic could be apply yep but i'm not sure you cannot build a bridge over a small hill 20:14:05 <krinn> let me check 20:14:25 <Zuu> krinn: actually, I use the simplification that if I find a hill, I don't scan further in my implementation. I guess it could cause issues in some corner cases but most sane builders shouldn't build a hyper-long bridge going over the entire map. :-) 20:14:38 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 20:14:56 <Zuu> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/superlib/repository/revisions/f7871256f63b/entry/tile.nut#L446 <-- code 20:15:20 <Rubidium> pff... the algorithm depends on what you want to know exactly ;) 20:15:47 <frosch123> Hirundo: like including grf parameters? 20:15:53 <Rubidium> if you want to know whether there's a bridge at all, you have to scan the half of both the row/colum 20:16:16 <Rubidium> but if you want to know whether there's a bridge lower than X you can safely exit when there's a hill high enough 20:16:47 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:17:00 <krinn> yep, i see i can build a little hill 1 height if one build a bridge over 2 steepslope 20:17:19 <Rubidium> question is whether adding an API to get the height level of the bridge is really what is useful, or is "is there a bridge at heightlevel N or lower" much more useful? 20:17:26 <Rubidium> (similarly for tunnels) 20:18:27 <krinn> well, know the level of the bridge would answer the isthereabridge but also tell you if you could pass bellow or not 20:18:35 <Eddi|zuHause> GetAllTunnelBridges(tile) resulting in a list of heights/directions/whatevers? 20:19:03 <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, actually finding bridge direction is really easy knowing a tile is a bridge 20:19:22 <Rubidium> but the requires lots of iterating, whereas if you give a boundary you'll be able to terminate the search much sooner 20:19:23 <Eddi|zuHause> (that one is potentially extensible to crossing bridges etc.) 20:20:15 <krinn> Rubidium, i don't have answer for tunnel (and they are actually more problematic because could be build farer down than one could build high a bridge) 20:20:31 <krinn> but for bridge, openttd have the function to get its height already 20:20:38 <Rubidium> tunnels and bridges can be equally long 20:21:03 <krinn> MayHaveBridgeAbove(tile) && IsBridgeAbove(tile) && 20:21:03 <krinn> GetBridgeHeight(GetSouthernBridgeEnd(tile)) 20:21:25 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: yes, that is because the bridge direction is stored in the tile 20:21:36 <Rubidium> GetSouthernBridgeEnd is found by iterating the map 20:21:45 <Eddi|zuHause> so it's a simple linear iteration from there 20:21:56 <Eddi|zuHause> to find the bridge head 20:22:29 <krinn> yep but iterating for openttd is just running, while for an ai it's taking everyone time 20:22:57 <krinn> the ones i show are use when openttd check if it could allow a tile to be raise, so it check for a bridge that could stop it from doing that 20:23:12 <krinn> and it even iter a 2nd time to get the costs of the actions 20:23:28 <krinn> never saw any complain that the game run slower when one click raise tile 20:23:35 <Eddi|zuHause> "âThere were 35,791 votes polled in Delhi, each of which had two paper backÂups. So of what should have been around 70,000 paper trails, around 3,500 were missÂing. This means there was an error rate of 5%,â said G.V.L. Narasimha Rao, presÂiÂdent of VeTA, and a memÂber of BJPâs elecÂtoral reforms committee." 20:23:58 <Eddi|zuHause> yay for voting computers! 20:24:10 <andythenorth> ya 20:24:24 <andythenorth> very important to count votes correctly in India 20:24:37 <Rubidium> krinn: I've seen them for levelling land 20:24:39 <andythenorth> otherwise the politicians won't know who to pay 20:25:08 <krinn> but didn't saw any for tunnel 20:25:29 <krinn> as openttd just check the tile bellow for lowering, and don't need to check if two tiles bellow there's one 20:25:59 <krinn> actually, i think the bridgeheight is use but wasn't create for that purpose, must have been made for some other purpose, but a welcome use in that case 20:26:18 <Wolf01> 'night 20:26:20 <Rubidium> krinn: I guess you're right 20:26:23 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host152-94-dynamic.117-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 20:26:34 <Rubidium> tunnels aren't quite drawn, bridges are 20:28:12 <krinn> just check, i wasn't sure, but you can build really high bridge in openttd 20:28:35 <krinn> 7 tiles from a hill to another 7 tiles hill and it work 20:28:47 <krinn> lol quite impressive construction 20:28:56 <krinn> more like a viaduc 20:28:57 <Rubidium> 16 heightlevels works fine as well 20:29:24 <krinn> must be why one create the getbridgeheight 20:34:54 *** Pikka [~Figgy@d58-111-88-82.rdl800.qld.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 20:35:09 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19A53.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:35:51 *** rhaeder [~quix0r@dslb-188-109-255-048.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 20:38:00 <Pikka> moin mentelgen 20:38:50 <Eddi|zuHause> you're writing upside down. 20:39:58 <__ln__> expectable 20:41:04 <Terkhen> hi Pikka 20:42:08 <krinn> hi 20:43:19 * andythenorth spots a pikka 20:43:36 <Pikka> a rare spotted pikka! 20:43:55 * andythenorth plays dicewars 20:44:44 * andythenorth wonders if dicewars supports newgrf 20:45:06 <frosch123> NewDice 20:45:15 <andythenorth> NewWars 20:45:27 <frosch123> ottd is a peaceful game 20:45:29 <andythenorth> the lighting in DiceWars is wrong :P 20:45:46 <andythenorth> clearly not compatible with ttd original graphics 20:45:49 <andythenorth> sun is on the left 20:45:52 <andythenorth> http://www.gamedesign.jp/flash/dice/dice.html 20:46:19 <andythenorth> ^ and there goes your evening 20:47:33 <Zuu> krinn: See tt-forums. I just posted a comparison between our AIs in your AI thread :-) 20:48:26 <Zuu> Your AI is doing well 20:48:41 <krinn> not as good as i wish :) 20:48:55 <krinn> and my AI sucks at terraforming lol 20:49:29 * LordAro is losing badly at diceawars :) 20:50:32 <andythenorth> LordAro: you'll lose as many as you win 20:50:37 <andythenorth> there's a certain amount of chance 20:50:45 <Terkhen> huh... looks strange 20:50:56 <andythenorth> it's a good exercise in drawing your opponent in 20:51:03 <andythenorth> the computer players are not sophisticated 20:51:26 <krinn> Zuu, shit i've lost the war, and i was happy before see it 20:51:40 <andythenorth> it's quite easy to get them to over-extend themselve 20:51:54 <Rubidium> krinn: sucks at terraforming or can't do terraforming at all? 20:52:02 <Pikka> andy, did you see my recent PM? look okay? 20:52:26 <Rubidium> you might outperform almost all AIs in one of my test games if your AI can perform some terraforming 20:52:26 <krinn> can't do any at all Rubidium :) 20:52:48 <krinn> this is what i'm trying to correct, that's what the aircraft tests show me 20:53:01 <andythenorth> Pikka: oops 20:53:04 <andythenorth> sorry, forgot to reply 20:53:04 <krinn> dunno if the tests are good for user, but for ai dev, it's a great feature :) 20:53:26 <andythenorth> Pikka: forest fire industry? 20:53:33 <Pikka> hmm.. google says it's 3 degrees and foggy... it feels about 15 degrees and I can see the cranes at fisherman's island, which I can't usually... 20:53:40 <Zuu> krinn: heh, don't take it soo deadly ;-) 20:54:05 <Pikka> andy: perhaps. :P 20:54:49 <andythenorth> can we load it with a crate? 20:54:53 <andythenorth> that would be easiest 20:55:00 <krinn> we cannot be sure, but i think i have less property maintenance in fact, just the aiports that dope the value 20:55:56 <Pikka> perhaps andy... although obviously you'll want fancy loads for your FIRS cargos? :P 20:56:02 <andythenorth> hmm 20:56:14 <andythenorth> well there's a small bulldozer that might fit 20:56:31 <Hirundo> frosch123: Yes, basically 0C <null-terminated-string> <param1> <param2> ... <paramn> 20:56:34 <Pikka> and of course wood, steel etc would be good with their own graphics 20:56:34 <andythenorth> I am a big fan of 'all cargoes travel in crates' :P 20:56:38 <Pikka> lol 20:56:57 <Pikka> well, I can certainly do some of the loads :) 20:57:31 <Pikka> I remind you that this was your idea though :P 20:57:35 <andythenorth> I'll dig up some FIRS sprites 20:57:43 <andythenorth> how about a boat? 20:57:51 <andythenorth> how about another plane? 20:58:10 <andythenorth> http://www.flickr.com/photos/nunatak/120113838/ 20:58:33 <Pikka> mmhm :P 20:58:49 <Pikka> I don't think planes have been introduced as a cargo though 20:58:58 <andythenorth> http://www.google.com/imgres?q=helicopter+carrying+plane&um=1&hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&biw=1253&bih=660&tbm=isch&tbnid=zpZk7lctKcrVnM:&imgrefurl=http://www.urlesque.com/2009/04/27/last-shot-helicopter-vs-plane/&docid=Ql7zWB3HDMGhAM&w=425&h=603&ei=is0xTrWoG9HG8QOcrYShDg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=186&vpy=74&dur=925&hovh=268&hovw=188&tx=86&ty=113&page=1&tbnh=174&tbnw=120&start=0&ndsp=17&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0 20:59:54 <frosch123> Hirundo: i wonder whether some functions, which prints all registers upon usage wouldn 21:00:01 <frosch123> 't be more useful? 21:00:27 <Hirundo> registers or parameters? 21:00:37 <frosch123> plus the final parameter values after activation 21:00:42 <Pikka> mm, Mi-26 21:00:44 <frosch123> sorry, parameters :) 21:01:07 <Pikka> you're going to want me to add that one next 21:01:08 <frosch123> for callbacks i always wanted to add some backtrace feature to the console or newgrf debug window 21:01:54 <andythenorth> Pikka: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/heqs/repository/raw/sprites/graphics/bulldozers.pcx 21:02:02 <andythenorth> is bulldozers 21:02:05 <Hirundo> For NML purposes, I was thinking about a 'debug action 2' 21:02:33 <Pikka> cool 21:02:56 <andythenorth> Pikka: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/heqs/repository/raw/sprites/graphics/gmund_mog.png 21:03:00 <Pikka> so they're "engineering supplies" (and perhaps "goods")? 21:03:05 <frosch123> Hirundo: how would that look like? 21:03:10 <Hirundo> basically an action2 that contains a printf(string, var1, var2, ..) vars can be any variable (with optional parameter, use 7D to read register) 21:03:11 <andythenorth> ^^^ that truck is 80% yours anyway 21:03:19 <andythenorth> Pikka: also Farm Supplies 21:03:32 <Pikka> okay 21:03:38 <andythenorth> and maybe ECS vehicles (not sure) 21:03:41 <Pikka> and I guess I can do crates, then :P 21:03:48 <frosch123> Hirundo: i don't think having to add extra stuff to a grf is the right way 21:03:49 <Hirundo> format like 02 <feature> <type-bye=some unused one> <null-terminated string> <var1> <var2> <varn>.... 21:04:17 <Hirundo> Basically, it'd allow NML to create a 'debug build' 21:04:45 <Hirundo> And also, to check for certain run-time errors and signal those 21:05:00 <andythenorth> Pikka: you don't have crates already? 21:05:05 <andythenorth> from ukrs? 21:05:13 <Pikka> well, yes 21:05:16 <Hirundo> currently, if the user does bad stuff (e.g. trying to use var 7B with param > 255), there is no way to tell him 21:05:19 <Pikka> but I have to add them to the helicopter :P 21:05:48 <Pikka> also, the aircraft don't have the shortened diagonal sprites that trains do... 21:05:49 <andythenorth> my laziness is increasing with sprites 21:06:09 <andythenorth> the more I draw, the less I can be bothered to draw :P 21:06:30 <andythenorth> but also the more copy-paste I can use ;) 21:06:44 <frosch123> Hirundo: hmm, what do you mean with that? shall nml automatically insert some kind of assertion when using var 7b? 21:07:06 <frosch123> that would sound like something ottd should do independent of nml 21:07:46 <Hirundo> basically NML could tell stuff to the user/dev at runtime, instead of at compile time only (via action B/C) 21:08:09 <andythenorth> sounds like an ottd feature 21:08:14 <andythenorth> in game debug 21:08:14 <Hirundo> and in NewGRF style, the format and use of those messages is determined by the user (in this case, compiler) 21:08:25 <andythenorth> I did that in a hack way in FIRS 21:08:33 <frosch123> the problem with inserting such stuff in action123 is, that it occurs way to often 21:09:00 <Hirundo> hmm I missed something: 02 <feature> <type-bye=some unused one> <null-terminated string> <var1> <var2> <varn>.... <next-action2> 21:09:00 <frosch123> so, either it needs some kind of assertion, or some manual trigger to tract one callback/spriteresolving 21:09:04 *** robotx [~robotx@pat-36.wireless.bristol.edu] has joined #openttd 21:09:21 *** robotx [~robotx@pat-36.wireless.bristol.edu] has quit [] 21:10:23 <Hirundo> such a trigger could be built in the current debug system, and/or via the grf debug switch 21:10:55 <Hirundo> 02 <feature> <type-bye=some unused one> <debug-level> <null-terminated string> <var1> <var2> <varn>.... <next-action2> 21:11:43 <frosch123> shall the variables get appended at the end, or does the string contrain stringcodes? 21:12:10 <andythenorth> Hirundo: do you have an actual case to use it with? 21:13:14 <andythenorth> Pikka: what will happen to the load when on ground? 21:13:37 <Pikka> it will only appear when the aircraft gets to a certain altitude, like with the current sling load on the chinook 21:13:58 <andythenorth> there's a sling load on the chinook :O 21:14:04 <Pikka> always has been :P 21:14:04 <andythenorth> there's a reason to start a new game 21:14:30 <Hirundo> frosch123: I thought of printf-like stuff (%..), but string codes are an interesting thought 21:14:32 <andythenorth> how clever 21:14:57 <frosch123> Hirundo: basically actionb like strings 21:15:11 <Hirundo> andythenorth: Basically, allowing the user to debug NML without NFO knowledge, and without OpenTTD depending on the NML specs 21:15:26 <andythenorth> in actionscript, I always like 'trace()' 21:15:37 *** thinksteve [~stephan@p579BDB52.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:15:43 <andythenorth> trace(arbitrary expression or string) 21:15:55 <andythenorth> prints to the output window 21:16:28 <andythenorth> actually faster and easier to write trace by hand than use the flash debugger (which is slow and tracks every object, var, prop) 21:16:31 <Hirundo> I know all too well :) actionscript is about my only programming experience before ottd / c(++) 21:16:56 <andythenorth> I made my own flash debugger by just using dynamic text fields :P 21:16:59 <andythenorth> way easier 21:17:12 <andythenorth> that gave me the idea for using industry window as debugger in FIRS 21:17:14 <frosch123> Hirundo: anyway, when would that output get activated? 21:17:26 <frosch123> i don't think printing it every time is that useful 21:17:39 <andythenorth> when developer sets equivalent of 'trace on'? 21:18:18 <Hirundo> for a lot of cases (not often-called callbacks) that'd work fine 21:18:22 <andythenorth> it's a flag in flash IDE test player, and also a compile time setting for swf 21:18:42 <frosch123> Hirundo: i think you have to at least some entity in the game 21:18:47 <frosch123> i.e. one industry, one industrytile ... 21:18:57 <andythenorth> I only mention flash because it's similar case - n objects all executing code on ticks 21:18:58 <frosch123> e.g. open the newgrf debug gui of it, any only print stuff there 21:18:58 <Hirundo> yes of course 21:19:15 <frosch123> oh, i thought you wanted to print everything to console :o 21:19:45 <Hirundo> yes, that's what I meant (originally) 21:20:12 <Hirundo> I replied to your first sentence "at least one entity", which would be mandatory to call any CB in the first place 21:21:08 <frosch123> oh, i a verb in that sentence :) 21:21:09 <Hirundo> though I'd also like the ability to print user errors just when newgrf_developer_tools is enabled 21:21:35 <frosch123> i meant that the debug output should only be active for those things you have the debug gui opened for 21:21:55 <frosch123> but, maybe that can be controlled via the severity 21:22:28 <frosch123> e.g. stuff to print in the debug gui when opened, stuff to always print, and stuff to pause the game on 21:22:48 <frosch123> though the latter could also be done as for ais 21:22:55 <Hirundo> sounds sensible 21:23:04 <frosch123> via some ingame editbox which triggers on matching debug otuput 21:25:30 <frosch123> hmm, i guess it needs both 21:25:48 <frosch123> pausing the game on an assertion is something different than pausing it on a breakpoint 21:25:54 <Eddi|zuHause> some way to get debug output for callbacks of one vehicle might be useful 21:25:57 *** Biolunar_ [mahdi@blfd-d9bf00a8.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: gn8] 21:26:36 <Hirundo> I'd suggest a fourth level - stuff to print only when some specific item+callback is flagged via the debug GUI 21:26:53 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: add callback results to the newgrf debug gui 21:27:29 <LordAro> night all 21:27:34 *** LordAro [56951e1e@ircip3.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 21:27:41 <Eddi|zuHause> not only results, also things like stepping through 21:28:04 <frosch123> Hirundo: maybe if those debug action2 are not present, ottd could just print on every varact2 21:28:09 <frosch123> when selecting a specific callback 21:28:32 <frosch123> i.e. if there is a gui to select callback etc, the tracing should be easy 21:28:38 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:94c3:172a:f453:86b5] has joined #openttd 21:28:42 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 21:28:47 <Eddi|zuHause> also: in the train window, i need a selector for which wagon i want to view 21:28:59 <Hirundo> yes, agreed 21:29:05 <andythenorth> sleepy time iggle piggle 21:29:58 <Hirundo> for NML that is becoming less and less useful though, as the direct relationship between switch-blocks and varaction2 is getting removed 21:30:20 <frosch123> Hirundo: if you compile something without debug symbols, you can still debug the assembler code 21:30:22 <frosch123> :) 21:30:27 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 21:31:07 <Hirundo> Agreed 21:31:20 <Hirundo> Currently NML projects are largely started by people who know NFO also, but will that be the same in a year or two? - I doubt 21:31:49 <frosch123> yeah, also a reason grf2html is unmaintained. it is useless for nml :) 21:31:58 *** bodis [~bodis@cpc3-ando3-0-0-cust781.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:32:01 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6DB5D.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 21:32:19 <frosch123> even if you know nfo 21:32:47 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-009-117.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.] 21:33:02 <frosch123> nml makes it too easy to write complicated terms :p 21:34:10 *** Fish-Face [~fish@cpc24-aztw23-2-0-cust147.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 21:34:21 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 21:35:12 <Hirundo> ^^ I have my doubts that the NFO -> NML conversion will ever work satisfactorily 21:35:13 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e090e25.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 21:35:30 <Fish-Face> I want to add conditional orders so that trains arriving at a pickup skip to going back to the drop-off if they're full. But the conditional order is evaluated as soon as the train gets to the station, so it's never true when it arrives at the first one 21:35:46 <Fish-Face> I tried adding a duplicate order but this makes the train leave the station and come back in, blocking the line in the process 21:35:55 <Fish-Face> is there a good way to use conditional orders like this? 21:37:02 <MNIM> sadly, i don't think there is. i wish there was something similar for my purposes too 21:37:28 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@i59F6B4E8.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:38:03 <Fish-Face> damn... so far all my ideas for using conditional orders have turned out to be impossible 21:38:06 <Hirundo> Fish-Face: you can use waypoints to delay evaluation of the order 21:38:31 <Fish-Face> presumably the waypoint must still be outside the station 21:38:32 <frosch123> night 21:38:36 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590ff3d9.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:38:47 *** ezra [~ezrac@67.110.141.71] has quit [Quit: Puh-peace!] 21:39:42 <MNIM> hmmmh, good idea. if you put the waypoint within the station's sign block, you won't block anything 21:41:17 *** perk11 [~perk11@broadband-77-37-203-211.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 21:42:46 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-86-49-8-98.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:53:35 <krinn> and why not using the conditional order but to loop until empty ? 21:54:22 <krinn> Fish-Face, i don't think you wish your train specially to run the line again before getting the order to get back because it is full no ? 21:54:40 <krinn> so why not dup order after the drop off station and loop it if train is still full 21:55:31 <krinn> your train won't get back full to the loading station, and you might even send it to a waypoint before return back to the dropoff station 22:05:12 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [Quit: The Third Tiberium War - http://www.moddb.com/mods/the-third-tiberium-war] 22:13:58 *** Zephyris [~Zephyris_@host86-145-92-120.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 22:15:44 *** Zephyris [~Zephyris_@host86-145-92-120.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has quit [] 22:25:07 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@78-80-200-5.tmcz.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:39:48 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [] 22:42:21 <krinn> night all 22:42:32 *** krinn [~krinn@197.54.71.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 22:57:30 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 22:58:51 *** supermop_ [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:43:06 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-25-210-214.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:51:04 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]