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00:15:46 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing] 00:22:21 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 00:59:21 *** perk11 [~perk11@31.181.40.32] has joined #openttd 01:00:23 *** DDR [~DDR@d142-179-78-88.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:05:15 *** DDR [~DDR@d142-179-78-88.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 01:54:20 *** APTX [APTX@89-78-217-144.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:01:08 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 02:02:03 *** Strid_ [~Strid@c-0dcde455.04-372-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:09:55 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-181-036.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:10:26 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-054-077.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 02:16:22 *** douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-79-222.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:26:06 *** rhaeder [~quix0r@dslb-188-109-253-072.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 02:31:45 *** rhaeder1 [~quix0r@dslb-188-109-255-107.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:37:36 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:d0f1:a0b1:9454:9c31] has quit [Quit: bye] 02:43:08 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-054-077.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 02:57:03 *** APTX [APTX@89-78-217-144.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #openttd 03:26:54 *** perk11 [~perk11@31.181.40.32] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 03:38:17 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 04:43:53 *** jpx_ [jpx_@a91-156-250-245.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd 04:52:42 *** Endymion_Mallorn [~pplgoldbl@ool-3f8fd010.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #openttd 04:55:26 <Endymion_Mallorn> Hi all. My question is sort of a multi-headed one. First, what costs go into the Property Management line on the Finances window, and second, with everything in the game being based around making money, why isn't there a page in the Wiki for Finances? 04:55:42 *** jpx_ [jpx_@a91-156-250-245.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:56:02 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B747ED.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:56:28 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B727B9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 04:57:25 <Pinkbeast> In vanilla, Property Maintenance is stations and only stations. 04:57:44 <Pinkbeast> ... and because, sadly, making money is laughably easy after the initial setup 04:59:28 <Endymion_Mallorn> You say sadly. I say that 9 out of 10 games I play, I end up in the red for more than my max loan. 05:00:01 <Endymion_Mallorn> ... though I have noticed this tends to happen more painfully during games I start in 1900 with eGRVTS. 05:00:36 <Pinkbeast> Well, that's not vanilla, then... but with any set granting rail vehicles? FIRS, or vanilla industries? 05:01:21 <Endymion_Mallorn> Vanilla. I'm actually not a big fan of FIRS. I prefer using OpenGFX+ Industries, or ECS Vectors. 05:01:38 <Endymion_Mallorn> If I don't use vanilla, that is. 05:02:11 <Pinkbeast> I don't know that it's still true in 1900, but many of the early EGRVTS steam RVs are inferior to horse-drawn ones, with which it is quite possible to make money. 05:03:47 <Endymion_Mallorn> The problem with the horse-drawn is twofold: speed and capacity. And it's most definitely still true in terms of running cost and reliability. Go from /yr; 99% reliability to 6/58%(IIRC)? I think not 05:04:30 <Pinkbeast> Hang on, they're _faster_ than the early steam vehicles (again, might not still be true in 1900) 05:04:35 <Pinkbeast> But what about rail? 05:04:40 <Endymion_Mallorn> I mean, when I fast-forward, in 10 seconds, I see "Going To..." "Broken Down" "Going To... (same station)" "Broken Down", etc. 05:04:52 <Endymion_Mallorn> Can't wrap my head around it. 05:05:19 <Pinkbeast> You may be the one person left who plays with breakdowns on, but... 05:05:27 <Endymion_Mallorn> I've tried it in plain vanilla, even with a map that was perfect, just a dedicated Coal -> Power Station, straight line. And it still didn't turn a profit. 05:05:48 <Endymion_Mallorn> Without breakdowns, the game would be impossibly easy and boring. 05:05:53 <Pinkbeast> I mean, what rail vehicle set are you using? 05:06:26 <Endymion_Mallorn> Vanilla. 05:06:28 <Pinkbeast> But equally well, the existing breakdown model is just hopeless 05:06:39 <Pinkbeast> ... er, and starting in 1900? 05:07:14 <Endymion_Mallorn> I got eGRVTS because I found that I was better with road vehicles than anything else. 05:09:05 <Endymion_Mallorn> And yeah, I'll agree, the sheer number of breakdowns makes me wonder when the breakdowns are "rolled" for and with what form of RNG. 05:10:34 <Pinkbeast> I don't know what you're doing wrong, though. I started off (years ago) with breakdowns on and coal->power rail still made respectable amounts of money. 05:11:07 <Endymion_Mallorn> Me either, that's the messed-up thing. 05:11:41 <Pinkbeast> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=53283 has some actual breakdown mechanics in 05:13:04 <Endymion_Mallorn> Okay. Well, mechanically speaking, do you know what the numbers are behind "property maintenance"? Because that's the one that always kills me. 05:15:03 <Pinkbeast> "Directly proportional to the number of the company's stations", says the wiki 05:16:54 <Endymion_Mallorn> You know, I realize something. I have been spoiled when it comes to numbers-heavy/math-heavy games. 05:17:26 <Endymion_Mallorn> I started with Pokemon Red... and I was one of the people with a hex editor taking cracks at it. 05:18:41 <Pinkbeast> I just started a brand new vanilla game in 1930 and laid out a single coalmine line. 05:19:08 <Endymion_Mallorn> What map size do you use? 05:21:17 <Endymion_Mallorn> My settings, on starting a new game, are in a nutshell as follows: Climate: Temperate; Mapsize: 256*256; TerraGenesis;Towns:High;Industries:High;Sea Level:Very Low;Tree Algorithm:Improved;Variety Distribution:None;Map Edges: Random; 05:21:47 <pjpe> 256 x 256? 05:22:45 <Endymion_Mallorn> Yeah, I find it's a nice, manageable size for me. It's not too big that I lose track of things, but it's not so small it feels cramped. 05:23:15 <Endymion_Mallorn> Oh. And Flat terrain type and smoothness set to "Smooth". 05:23:39 <Pinkbeast> I used 256x256 for this test. I had less flat terrain than that, but my initial line is still totally flat. 05:24:10 <Endymion_Mallorn> Alright 05:24:30 <Endymion_Mallorn> Now, Fast-Forward shouldn't have any effect, should it? 05:25:12 <Pinkbeast> Well, I could just FF through the rest of the year... 05:25:58 <Pinkbeast> What you describe does sound like the behaviour of a vehicle that has been unable to service for some time. 05:26:20 <Pinkbeast> First breakdown, 28 July 05:26:57 <Pinkbeast> 22nd Aug... 05:27:08 <Pinkbeast> (I have 4 trains running on this route) 05:30:14 <Endymion_Mallorn> Wow. 05:30:20 <Pinkbeast> 19th Sep. And that's it. So 3 breakdowns from 4 trains in the year. At the end of the year I have a company value of 47K and a 50K loan. In that year I took 64K train income for 4K running costs, 1,200 property maintenance, 3K loan interest. 05:30:49 <Endymion_Mallorn> I just tried the same thing, and I ended up with a train that could not enter the station. 05:31:00 <Pinkbeast> Got a savegame? 05:31:00 <Endymion_Mallorn> 1 track, length 3. 05:32:11 <Endymion_Mallorn> A virgin one, from before I set up the trains. 05:32:35 <Pinkbeast> An autosave from after would be more informative. 05:32:49 <Endymion_Mallorn> I don't know where my autosaves are, even 05:33:04 <Endymion_Mallorn> Oh, wait. Duh 05:35:55 <Endymion_Mallorn> http://wikisend.com/download/181290/autosave1.sav 05:37:22 <Pinkbeast> Well, the track doesn't actually connect to the coalmine station. 05:38:54 <Endymion_Mallorn> *raises eyebrow* 05:40:39 <Pinkbeast> Also especially with no cargo weight multiplier (I was using x3) you might use one or two more cargo wagons 05:41:04 <Endymion_Mallorn> Okay. I see what you are saying and I fixed it there. 05:41:35 <Pinkbeast> Now the train is immediately profitable. 05:41:48 <Endymion_Mallorn> But the station is only 3 in length. That's why the train only has the engine and two cars, so it fits on the platform. 05:42:19 <Endymion_Mallorn> And where does one find this "cargo weight multiplier" you speak of? 05:43:15 <Pinkbeast> Nothing's stopping you building a bigger station; the train only has a length of 1.5 tiles so in any case fits twice over into a 3 tile station; in "Advanced Settings", "Trains", "Weight multiplier for freight to simulate heavy trains" 05:43:42 <Pinkbeast> I observe you have breakdowns "normal", which is likely to get silly, but even with that the train is profitable. 05:44:13 <Endymion_Mallorn> How does one determine the lengh of a train in terms of station tiles? If a train with three parts is only equal to 1.5 tiles...? 05:44:19 <Endymion_Mallorn> Well, yeah. 05:45:03 <Pinkbeast> The length of a train is shown in a depot when it's under construction (and this one is 2.0 tiles, er, sorry) 05:45:11 <Pinkbeast> ... also all vanilla rail vehicles are 0.5 tiles 05:45:49 <Pinkbeast> But I think you do have an issue with depot placement. You've ensured that whenever the train wants servicing it has to run uphill with full cargo 05:46:16 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 05:46:27 <Endymion_Mallorn> No, it goes past the station for the power plant. It should empty itself out before it wants service/ 05:46:28 <Endymion_Mallorn> *. 05:46:59 <Pinkbeast> Thanks. Now actually try it? 05:47:08 <Endymion_Mallorn> What if I just put that into orders, so that every time it gets there, it unloads and then goes to the depot? 05:47:38 <Pinkbeast> Why not just position a depot at each station, and on the same side of the station as the railway line? 05:48:23 <Pinkbeast> A train going to a depot goes directly there. It doesn't stop, even if it passes a scheduled station. The train _does_ go up the hill loaded, for all that you say it "should" not. 05:49:42 <Endymion_Mallorn> Even if I have it in the orders as follows: 05:49:42 <Endymion_Mallorn> 1. Go to Nesditch South (Wait for any Full Load); 2. Go to Nesditch Woods (Unload and leave empty); 3. Maintain at Nesditch Train Depot ? 05:50:06 <Pinkbeast> Well, that's not the case under discussion. 05:50:50 <Pinkbeast> But then it wouldn't go up the hill loaded because it would only get to order 3 after already unloading. 05:50:54 <Endymion_Mallorn> Right. 05:51:10 <Pinkbeast> But then the depot still would be better positioned not up a hill. 05:52:04 <Pinkbeast> Next to the entrance to Nesditch South, for example, to permit newly constructed trains to get to the coalmine asap once double track is in use. 05:52:39 <Endymion_Mallorn> Ah. "I see", said the blind man. 05:53:01 <Pinkbeast> Hm? 05:57:02 <Endymion_Mallorn> I get what you're saying. 05:58:19 <Endymion_Mallorn> It's just... I'm not really that good with trains. To be honest, when I played real TTD a while back, I always set it somewhere around 2000 and used airplanes. 05:58:25 <Pinkbeast> Also it's a good idea to service between unload and load because then cargo delivery times are reduced, meaning more money. But if you've kept that running, I guess you've noticed that one tank engine is more than covering property maintenance and loan repayments... 05:58:37 <Endymion_Mallorn> Yeah 05:58:42 <Endymion_Mallorn> Why don't buses? 05:58:54 <Endymion_Mallorn> Or for that matter, coal trucks in Vanilla? 05:59:42 <Pinkbeast> Why not use them? The capacity is a bit limited. You need a _lot_ of coal trucks to make one coal train once the more powerful locomotives appear. 06:00:15 <Endymion_Mallorn> Ah, and by the time you reach your capacity, you're overtaken in terms of road vehicle running costs. 06:00:34 <Endymion_Mallorn> We're talking a single train, that's more like 11 coal trucks. Each with its own maintenance. 06:00:43 <Pinkbeast> Reaching your capacity _at all_ can be problematic. 06:00:53 <Endymion_Mallorn> True 06:01:33 <Pinkbeast> That mine already wants more than one train - I would guess three. Pretty soon you need a vast RV station just to keep them loading fast enough. And then the coalmine's production can increase by a multiple of something like 15 or 20 during the game... 06:01:37 <Endymion_Mallorn> So basically, if I want to have fun with buses and such, get a self-sustaining coal line going like the one we have there, and then go off and see if I can do anything in terms of profit. 06:02:19 <Pinkbeast> I would build a bit more of a coal operation. In the test game I did, I immediately built a longer double-track line and put 4 trains on it. 06:02:51 <Endymion_Mallorn> Ah. So demolish the current stations, put in 2 double-track stations, and go from there? 06:02:57 <Pinkbeast> But once that's done, money isn't really an issue, and that's why there's no wiki page on Finances (instead there are some describing these basic moneyspinners 06:03:22 <Pinkbeast> Demolish? No. Add platforms and tracks, but keep the existing train running - it's profitable 06:03:40 <Pinkbeast> Just make sure when you add signals it isn't on the wrong side of the line 06:04:06 <Endymion_Mallorn> Ah. Now we get back to something I don't really "get". 06:04:46 <Pinkbeast> http://wiki.openttd.org/Image:Tutorial_three_trains.png is close enough 06:05:07 <Endymion_Mallorn> If it ever loads :-p 06:05:19 <Endymion_Mallorn> Ah. There it is. 06:05:39 <Pinkbeast> http://wiki.openttd.org/Image:Tutorial_two_platforms_both_ends.png # also 06:06:47 <Endymion_Mallorn> Okay. So, one of the tracks goes one way, and the other goes the other way. And I set the signals, what, two or three tiles away from the stations? 06:06:53 <Pinkbeast> So. A signal on each platform, facing trains as they leave. Then crossovers. Then one-way signals to make sure trains use the right track. 06:07:49 <Pinkbeast> The signalling in that is a bit odd. I tend to put a pair of one-way signals immediately after the crossover, and then put signals at my preferred spacing all down the line to the other station 06:08:44 <Endymion_Mallorn> A one-way signal on each track as it leaves the station?? 06:08:55 <Pinkbeast> In the second picture, the station at the power station is pretty much what I mean except I would have a one-way signal on the other line as well. 06:09:32 <Pinkbeast> No. Station. Ordinary PBS signal facing station. Crossover. One-way signal. 06:14:38 <Pinkbeast> http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~damerell/games/signals.png shows the exact arrangement of signals I used for the line I constructed for my test game 06:14:56 <Pinkbeast> The other station isn't in shot but it's got an exactly identical arrangement. 06:16:33 *** _1009 [~chatzilla@b85159.upc-b.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 06:17:45 <planetmaker> moin 06:17:50 <Pinkbeast> Ahoy. 06:18:19 <_1009> Ohai. 06:19:02 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e091fee.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:20:45 <Endymion_Mallorn> I see. 06:20:57 <Endymion_Mallorn> Alright. It's 2AM. I gotta sleep now. Thanks for the help. 06:21:04 <planetmaker> Endymion_Mallorn: sometimes it also helps to use explicit service / goto depot orders 06:21:04 <Pinkbeast> No worries. 06:23:14 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has joined #openttd 06:24:21 *** Endymion_Mallorn [~pplgoldbl@ool-3f8fd010.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Endymion_Mallorn] 06:41:44 <_1009> I'm trying to get familiair with the code, so I decided to add a cheat which allows you to stop an AI (suggested by planetmaker or krinn, don't remember) - I'm wondering, what's the right way to add a new String? I see like static const StringID STR_CHEAT_CHANGE_DATE = 0x496; in strings.h, but can't figure out what value I should give my new string. 06:43:19 <planetmaker> just add the string to src/lang/english.txt 06:43:27 <_1009> OK, thanks. 06:43:40 <planetmaker> don't add translations :-) 06:43:58 <planetmaker> they're done exclusively via our web translator interface 06:44:25 <_1009> Okay that's good. But, I think I should also add a line in strings.h, right? 06:44:51 <Pinkbeast> Isn't that all automagically generated by the build process? 06:45:34 <_1009> I... don't know. :3 I'll try! 06:46:12 <planetmaker> it is. Strings are not assigned a number anywhere manually 06:46:28 <_1009> Okay great. 06:48:00 <planetmaker> you'll notice that all gui files re-compile once you touch english.txt :-) 06:48:14 <_1009> Lol, so I noticed, it takes quite some time now. 06:48:23 <_1009> Smart stuff there :) 06:50:15 <_1009> Why is it that OpenTTD when compiled by hand takes so much longer to do stuff (like generating the world) than it is when downloaded? 06:50:40 <_1009> Ooh the rivers are really pretty! 06:51:41 <planetmaker> they are :-) 06:52:10 <planetmaker> by default openttd builds some debug informations into the binary 06:52:17 <_1009> Okay I see 06:52:20 <planetmaker> which are skipped for release builds 06:52:35 <_1009> Anyway, I succeeded adding my own line to the cheat widget, hurray for me =X 06:52:38 <planetmaker> ./configure --enable-static --without-assert and something else 06:52:50 <planetmaker> but don't do that when testing ;-) 06:52:53 <_1009> Oh, right. It's the assert thing. Okay, great to know. 06:52:57 <planetmaker> rather even add --enable-debug 06:53:03 <_1009> No it wasn't really a problem, but I was just wondering. 06:53:08 <_1009> M'kay :) 06:57:11 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 06:57:18 <_1009> Gonna leave for work and then school, see you 06:57:19 *** _1009 [~chatzilla@b85159.upc-b.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 6.0/20110811165603]] 06:57:21 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 07:02:12 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 07:07:01 <George> Action 0 Feature 8 (Global Variables) Property 14 (Gender/case translation table) is not supported by TTDPatch. Should they be skipped with action 7 or 9? 07:15:17 <planetmaker> iirc they should be ignored by ttdpatch 07:16:05 <planetmaker> but according to wallyweb it still makes problems (you know that)... you'd have to ask a ttdp developer on it, I guess 07:16:46 <planetmaker> what did you do so that it worked for him? 07:17:52 <planetmaker> PS, George: typo ahead: "...does bot support..." -> "...does not support..." 07:19:15 <George> I used action 9. But I'm not sure that it is correct 07:27:16 <Terkhen> good morning 07:29:21 <planetmaker> does it work, George? 07:29:28 <planetmaker> from the specs it should 07:29:39 <planetmaker> as far as I read them 07:30:14 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 07:31:45 <George> wally reports it is, but I do not know, is that correct 07:31:59 <George> I tried action 7, but it did not work 07:32:06 <George> But why? 07:32:26 <George> I thought action 7 should be used :( 07:35:41 <planetmaker> http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Dutch_Trainset_MUs <--- boah... those who devised that colour scheme must be totally not feel the pain 07:37:04 <planetmaker> action9 also works during initalization which action7 does not... 07:38:30 *** jpx_ [jpx_@a91-156-242-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd 07:40:13 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-178-004-183-167.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 07:42:54 *** Belugas [~belugas@216.191.111.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:45:45 *** Belugas [~belugas@216.191.111.237] has joined #openttd 07:45:48 *** mode/#openttd [+o Belugas] by ChanServ 07:54:40 *** Progman [~progman@p57A199CC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 07:57:23 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd 08:03:21 *** Netsplit synthon.oftc.net <-> charm.oftc.net quits: lugo, Theos, Andel, devilsadvocate, ccfreak2k, Born_Acorn 08:04:03 *** Netsplit over, joins: Born_Acorn, Andel, Theos, devilsadvocate, lugo, ccfreak2k 08:04:57 <dihedral> greetings 08:05:41 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:11:22 *** jpx_ [jpx_@a91-156-242-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:17:38 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-054-077.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 08:33:57 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 08:45:52 <andythenorth> mornin 08:48:24 <planetmaker> hello andythenorth, hello dihedral 08:52:40 *** heffer [~felix@hyperion.fetzig.org] has joined #openttd 08:56:07 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 09:09:03 *** LordAro [~lordaro@host86-154-80-124.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 09:09:30 <LordAro> mornings 09:14:53 *** pjpe [ae5f3b40@ircip3.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 09:29:45 *** DDR [~DDR@d142-179-78-88.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: In democracy it's your vote that counts; In feudalism it's your count that votes. - Mogens Jallberg] 09:36:29 <andythenorth> I'm so glad the game put that river on the map, it was *so* useful :| 09:36:30 <andythenorth> http://tt-foundry.com/misc/useful_river.png 09:37:07 *** douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-79-222.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 09:37:17 <planetmaker> well what do you expect? 09:37:30 <planetmaker> rivers by default aren't navigable when sloping much 09:37:53 <planetmaker> You should use opengfx+ airports by default 09:37:57 <andythenorth> you'll all have to put me on ignore :P 09:39:17 <andythenorth> next time I just build a railroad 09:44:11 <planetmaker> ships were never meant to transport stuff from a hill top to the sea ;-) 09:45:45 <andythenorth> you should visit Wales, or the English north 09:45:46 <andythenorth> :P 09:46:45 <andythenorth> there are canals over mountain ranges 09:50:04 <planetmaker> Like the panama canal ;-) 09:50:40 <planetmaker> using different water on rivers than on sea is a good idea [TM] 09:53:01 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 09:54:59 <appe> andythenorth: what industry is that? 09:57:25 <andythenorth> quarry 09:58:44 <planetmaker> sand quarry 09:59:07 <planetmaker> probably from a custom FIRS version :-P 09:59:22 <andythenorth> technically true 09:59:29 <Yexo> <planetmaker> [09:15:17] iirc they should be ignored by ttdpatch <- unknown properties are generally not ignored but errors 09:59:35 <andythenorth> although it's identical to the one in 0.7.0-beta1 10:00:14 <planetmaker> I meant to refer to feature 14 in that sentence. The General specs not. 10:01:17 <Yexo> George: according to http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/GrfLoadingStages TTDPach checks the action0 for validity during the Init stage 10:01:32 <Yexo> which means you'll need to use action9, since action7 doesn't cause a skip during Init 10:03:48 <andythenorth> no 90' turns for ships seems like a misfeature 10:03:53 <andythenorth> how is it supposed to be useful? 10:04:03 <andythenorth> apart from causing my ships to get stuck 10:04:19 <Yexo> I agree, I don't see a use for that 10:04:21 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r22863 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_order.cpp: -Fix (r22861): AIOrder::SetOrderCondition didn't accept the new condition 10:05:38 <andythenorth> if there were diagonal canals / rivers .... maybe it would make sense 10:14:45 *** LordAro [~lordaro@host86-154-80-124.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:19:11 *** heffer [~felix@hyperion.fetzig.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:46:25 *** Mazur [~mazur@5ED2BEAE.cm-7-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:07:28 *** jpx_ [jpx_@a91-156-250-245.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd 11:09:13 <Eddi|zuHause> there are diagonal coasts 11:11:07 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@i59F6D1E3.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 11:16:20 <planetmaker> andythenorth: if you build a zig-zag river boats travel it diagonally 11:16:35 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6DAA5.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:50:30 <appe> i dont get this 11:50:33 <appe> http://tt-foundry.com/misc/useful_river.png 11:50:37 <appe> isnt a train ..better? 11:50:47 <appe> ive never really understood boating. 11:51:44 <andythenorth> a train is better 11:52:02 <andythenorth> this is sad 11:55:49 <peter1138> heh 11:56:02 <andythenorth> what's to understand about boating? 11:56:11 <andythenorth> you get a log, put it in the water, put stuff on it 11:56:55 <peter1138> you don't generally send them down the rapids though 11:59:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i would definitely have built this differently... 11:59:32 * andythenorth looks for web evidence of steam boats being hauled through rapids 11:59:35 <andythenorth> it happened 11:59:41 <andythenorth> can't find a good picture though :P 12:04:59 <peter1138> andythenorth, two arguments to that 12:05:08 <peter1138> if it didn't happen then making it happen is unrealistic 12:05:31 <peter1138> if it did happen then making it happen would be too realistic 12:05:37 <andythenorth> meh 12:05:44 * andythenorth proposes new open source game 12:05:52 <andythenorth> OpenRiverboatTycoon 12:06:11 <andythenorth> a decent land generator would make some of this go away 12:06:18 <peter1138> OpenAnythingButBloodyTrainsTycoon 12:06:29 <andythenorth> mountains and flat bits on the same map? I'll buy that for 12:06:58 <andythenorth> I want the mississippi and the rockies :P 12:07:17 <peter1138> tgp was supposed to be the best ever! 12:07:39 <andythenorth> tgp is adequate 12:07:41 <andythenorth> but not shiny 12:07:50 <andythenorth> and you proved that it is also distinctly odd 12:08:00 <andythenorth> and variety distribution is just lies 12:08:07 <planetmaker> port terragen to openttd ;-) 12:08:14 <planetmaker> or scriptable terrain generators 12:08:34 <planetmaker> with callbacks for certain parts of map generation 12:08:56 <planetmaker> like heightmap. river gen, treegen, towngen, industrygen, objectgen, roadgen,... 12:09:22 <planetmaker> and add that option of mapgen scripts to bananas ;-) 12:10:16 <planetmaker> they could feature a similar interface like action14 for newgrfs (i.e. allowed to display a parameter window with things to configure by the user) 12:14:10 <Eddi|zuHause> well, the terragen interface _was_ prepared for more customizable algorithms 12:18:55 *** alluke [~591b0bad@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 12:19:12 <alluke> there the f is danmack 12:19:27 <alluke> where* 12:19:39 <andythenorth> off the grid 12:19:46 <andythenorth> his spriting days may be over 12:20:01 <andythenorth> he lost the love for spriting 12:20:08 <planetmaker> hm... no nearby tile check for water tiles 12:20:09 <andythenorth> this seemed to happen after collaborating with me :( 12:20:23 <planetmaker> or with me :-( 12:20:40 <andythenorth> I know amount of work for canset was getting him down 12:20:49 <andythenorth> and he got married and started a job and moved house and such 12:20:54 <andythenorth> life 12:21:02 <planetmaker> it'd let me down, too, if I didn't see it put to use anytime soon 12:21:13 <planetmaker> yeah 12:21:23 <alluke> pm 12:21:33 <alluke> could u edit the topic of fts 12:21:39 <peter1138> what sort of greeting is "where the f is danmack"? 12:21:50 <andythenorth> a dumb one 12:21:56 <andythenorth> but I indulged him 12:22:01 <TrueBrain> one that begs for a kick tbh :P 12:22:37 * planetmaker could answer 'yes' or 'no' if pm knew what alluke is talking about 12:22:50 <alluke> finnish train set :P 12:22:58 <alluke> something like coder(s) needed 12:23:01 <planetmaker> answer: 'no' 12:23:05 <alluke> doh 12:23:44 <planetmaker> what about you give it a shot yourself. It's not like it's terribly difficult anymore nowadays 12:24:11 <alluke> coding? 12:25:00 <planetmaker> I know stupid suggestion. 12:25:52 <alluke> could try 12:25:57 <alluke> but i know nothing about it xD 12:26:11 <andythenorth> ho 12:26:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i knew nothing about coding at one point either... 12:26:26 * andythenorth knew nothing about making omelettes 12:26:32 * andythenorth knew nothing about marriage 12:26:41 * andythenorth knew nothing about multiple kinds of infinities 12:26:44 <alluke> you learn those on tv 12:26:45 <Eddi|zuHause> admitttedly, i started at about age of 10... 12:26:48 * andythenorth knew nothing about how to shave 12:26:59 * andythenorth knew nothing about how people live in Bombay 12:27:12 * andythenorth knew nothing about typing on QWERTY keyboard 12:27:19 * andythenorth knew nothing about video codecs 12:27:26 <TrueBrain> go more basic 12:27:27 <TrueBrain> reading 12:27:29 <TrueBrain> writing 12:27:38 * andythenorth knew nothing about Joseph Campbell "12 steps of epic narratives" 12:27:39 <planetmaker> wait. You were not born with those capabilities? 12:27:40 <Eddi|zuHause> speaking 12:27:47 <alluke> is it similar to hacking gmae files 12:27:49 <alluke> game* 12:27:59 <Eddi|zuHause> no. not at all 12:28:03 <alluke> hm 12:28:57 <Eddi|zuHause> start here: http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NMLTutorial 12:29:03 <Yexo> FoOBar wrote a very good tutorial here: 12:29:11 <Yexo> well, see eddi's link 12:29:19 <andythenorth> can't we just do satire afternoon instead? 12:29:32 <planetmaker> why instead? aren't we there already? 12:29:41 <TrueBrain> is it ever anything else? 12:29:52 <andythenorth> well, why stop now? 12:30:08 <TrueBrain> because they felt sad I guess 12:30:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i'll do satire if you make a virtual machine from a real one... 12:30:40 <andythenorth> maybe we could make bananas 2 12:30:45 <andythenorth> but I know nothing about that 12:30:58 <planetmaker> bananas.... there some in my shelf. I guess I'll grab one now :-) 12:31:06 <TrueBrain> pass me one pleaaaasseeee 12:31:09 <TrueBrain> I am hungry like fuck 12:31:31 <planetmaker> sure. here you go :-) 12:31:36 <TrueBrain> cheers mate 12:31:37 <planetmaker> tcp/ip transfer might be slow though 12:32:05 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:b414:6fac:e89d:3e01] has joined #openttd 12:32:05 <planetmaker> and depends on your 3d printer, whether its cartridges are adequately filled ;-) 12:32:06 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 12:32:06 <TrueBrain> use pidgeon transport 12:32:16 <planetmaker> good idea 12:32:35 <alluke> uncommented nml looks really similar to game files ive hacked 12:32:54 <TrueBrain> Yeah, we all agree'd on a single game file standard; every game is using it these days 12:32:56 <TrueBrain> much easier 12:33:17 <planetmaker> apropos pidgeon: http://www.wdr.de/tv/kopfball/sendungsbeitraege/2010/1017/brieftaubenprotokoll.jsp 12:33:28 <andythenorth> Game File Your Standard 12:33:39 <Eddi|zuHause> alluke: in my days "game file hacking" meant taking a hex-editor 12:33:58 <planetmaker> xml ftw! 12:34:02 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: in my days "game file hacking" had no meaning. Even these days it doesn't :p 12:34:17 <andythenorth> why isn't the game coded in xml? 12:34:18 <alluke> hah 12:35:00 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: put <code><!--[CDATA ]--></code> around the text in every file, and it will be 12:35:17 <TrueBrain> I make no promises if it still works or compiles 12:35:22 <andythenorth> xml is the solution to all 12:35:24 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:36:34 <Eddi|zuHause> "xml is like {violence|alcohol|...}. if it doesn't solve your problems, you're not using enough of it yet." 12:36:55 <andythenorth> will it fix locks? 12:36:59 <andythenorth> xml locks? 12:37:01 <andythenorth> xml ports? 12:37:05 <andythenorth> xml roadtypes? 12:37:21 <Eddi|zuHause> xml 32bpp extra zoom? 12:37:33 <BartHoning> Who is in charge of the 32bpp project? Does someone oversees what sprites still need to be done? What programs do they use to create the 32bpp versions? 12:37:35 <Eddi|zuHause> xml daylength? 12:38:03 <Ammler> BartHoning: ask at tt-forums? 12:38:12 <andythenorth> BartHoning: ^ 12:38:12 <Yexo> BartHoning: nobody, no, blender/gimp/finally pngcodec 12:38:25 <andythenorth> 32bpp isn't a project, it's a car crash 12:38:35 <andythenorth> a project has a purpose 12:38:37 <Ammler> evil andy 12:38:37 <andythenorth> and ships stuff 12:38:55 <andythenorth> 32bpp should be filed alongside BROS 12:39:25 <Yexo> in terms of not getting anything done, yes 12:39:32 <Yexo> although they're making very different mistakes 12:39:40 <alluke> the fts will be too hard for me 12:39:46 <andythenorth> I'd file them under 'weak-brained people need something to amuse them' 12:39:51 <andythenorth> they're side-shows 12:40:25 * andythenorth is not forgiving today 12:40:37 <Eddi|zuHause> they need a BIG project manager!! 12:42:09 <andythenorth> how BIG? 12:42:19 <Yexo> alluke: I will help with coding the finish train set under one big condition: I'm not going to do any grunt work like making sure the graphics are properly aligned or filling in properties of different vehicles 12:42:25 <andythenorth> what's the scale? 12:43:23 <Yexo> and before doing anything I want to hear a clear license for the sprites 12:53:56 <planetmaker> alluke: why will the finnish set be too hard? 12:54:01 <planetmaker> start with some simple engines 12:54:14 <planetmaker> the examples in the tutorial are quite elaborate 12:54:32 <alluke> i think i could start with tve1 12:54:37 <alluke> it wont even change livery 12:54:42 <alluke> or name 12:54:46 <alluke> but 12:54:51 <alluke> of to driving school now 12:55:11 <planetmaker> the point is to get started. Start simple 12:55:15 <planetmaker> every set starts simple 12:55:27 <planetmaker> complications can always be added 12:55:46 <planetmaker> you'll learn them as you go 12:57:12 <Eddi|zuHause> <planetmaker> every set starts simple <-- there was quite a huge jump in CETS from one engine to all engines :p 12:57:30 <planetmaker> see. It started simple ;-) 12:57:45 <planetmaker> then things just got copied (intelligently via template) 13:02:52 *** alluke [~591b0bad@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:30:09 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 13:37:06 <Belugas> hello 13:42:07 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 13:51:55 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 13:55:10 *** perk11 [~perk11@31.181.40.32] has joined #openttd 13:56:44 <perk11> how do I know inflation rate in openttd? 13:57:07 <perk11> and how do I calculate smth in game start prices? 13:57:31 <Yexo> start a new game and look at the price 13:57:42 <Yexo> isn't the inflation listed in the difficulty window 13:57:53 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [] 13:57:57 <planetmaker> or price / (1+x/100)^n 13:58:06 <planetmaker> it is listed there 13:58:31 <perk11> I only see "starting interest rate" there 13:58:59 <perk11> is it inflation rate as well? 14:00:21 <planetmaker> hm, I thought so. Might be wrong, though 14:00:25 <Yexo> see http://wiki.openttd.org/Economy#Inflation 14:00:33 <Yexo> "The inflation rate for costs is equal to the initial interest rate of the game, as determined by the game difficulty, and the cargo payment inflation is slightly below that (about 1 percent). " 14:00:46 <Yexo> I think, but not completely sure, that that is correct 14:00:54 <perk11> Yexo: thank you 14:03:00 <perk11> different inflation rates for costs and cargo payment makes it quite difficult to calculate something in game-start prices 14:03:27 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 600/1.83 14:03:27 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 327.868852459 14:04:14 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 365*3/600 14:04:14 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 1.825 14:04:57 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 365.25*3/600 14:04:57 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 1.82625 14:05:31 *** Osai [~Osai@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:05:46 *** avdg [~avdg@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:05:50 *** DJNekkid [~djnekkid@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:06:20 *** Hirundo [~Hirundo@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:07:42 *** SmatZ [~smatz@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:09:12 *** ^Spike^ [~Spike@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:09:22 *** Yexo [~Yexo@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:09:22 *** XeryusTC [~XeryusTC@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:09:22 *** planetmaker [~planetmak@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:09:27 *** tneo [~tneo@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:09:27 *** Ammler [~ammler@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:12:25 *** Terkhen [~Terkhen@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:12:27 *** V453000 [~V453000@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:15:01 *** Hirundo [~Hirundo@178.63.83.101] has joined #openttd 14:15:31 *** Ammler [~ammler@178.63.83.101] has joined #openttd 14:15:33 *** SmatZ [~smatz@178.63.83.101] has joined #openttd 14:15:50 *** Ammler is now known as Guest8146 14:16:04 *** planetmaker [~planetmak@178.63.83.101] has joined #openttd 14:16:04 *** tneo [~tneo@178.63.83.101] has joined #openttd 14:16:20 *** planetmaker is now known as Guest8147 14:16:34 *** ^Spike^ [~Spike@178.63.83.101] has joined #openttd 14:17:00 *** ^Spike^ is now known as Guest8148 14:17:04 *** V453000 [~V453000@178.63.83.101] has joined #openttd 14:17:04 *** Osai [~Osai@178.63.83.101] has joined #openttd 14:17:04 *** Terkhen [~Terkhen@178.63.83.101] has joined #openttd 14:17:07 *** mode/#openttd [+o Terkhen] by ChanServ 14:17:34 *** XeryusTC [~XeryusTC@178.63.83.101] has joined #openttd 14:17:34 *** Yexo [~Yexo@178.63.83.101] has joined #openttd 14:18:34 *** avdg [~avdg@178.63.83.101] has joined #openttd 14:19:04 *** DJNekkid [~djnekkid@178.63.83.101] has joined #openttd 14:22:44 *** Guest8148 [~Spike@178.63.83.101] has quit [Quit: Ehm.. Quit? What's That?] 14:23:04 *** ^Spike^- [~Spike@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 14:25:56 *** Guest8147 is now known as planetmaker_ 14:26:11 *** snack2 [~nn@dsl-hkibrasgw1-ff1cc000-21.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 14:32:11 *** Guest8146 [~ammler@178.63.83.101] has quit [Quit: gone...] 14:32:29 *** Ammler- [~ammler@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 14:35:58 *** Mazur [~mazur@5ED2BEAE.cm-7-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 14:40:19 <andythenorth> http://thedailywtf.com/Comments/The-Cool-Cam.aspx 14:41:22 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 14:42:29 * ^Spike^- likes http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Classic-WTF-ITAPPMONROBOT.aspx more :) 14:58:07 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 15:07:02 *** ^Spike^- is now known as ^Spike^ 15:16:27 *** Ammler- is now known as Ammler 15:21:33 *** planetmaker_ is now known as planetmaker 15:32:53 *** TinoDidriksen [~TinoDidri@alpha.visl.sdu.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:39:32 <planetmaker> http://imagebin.org/170582 <-- should rivers get completely snowed riverbanks? 15:40:49 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 15:41:09 <Eddi|zuHause> (if it's like with rails: snow/no snow without transiton) 15:41:42 *** fjb [~frank@p57941EDF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 15:42:08 <planetmaker> it's not like rails 15:42:13 <fjb> Moin 15:42:16 <planetmaker> I can handle transitions 15:42:33 <planetmaker> but I'm considering to use one snow-density lower than the height suggests 15:42:39 <Eddi|zuHause> no 15:42:44 <Eddi|zuHause> silly idea 15:42:49 <planetmaker> water is warm 15:42:54 <planetmaker> warmer than snow 15:43:10 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but the water does not warm the shore 15:45:33 *** TinoDidriksen [~TinoDidri@alpha.visl.sdu.dk] has joined #openttd 15:51:20 <Belugas> it does not? you are sure? 15:56:03 <Eddi|zuHause> even if the river is floating, the shores are the most likely to freeze 15:58:07 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 15:58:53 <Belugas> oh... yeah.. 15:59:16 * planetmaker considers to use NML to generate the necessary code 15:59:43 <Belugas> but the water DO warm the shores, not jsut enough sometimes to stop it from freezing 16:05:50 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 16:20:42 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B727B9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:24:57 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B727B9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 16:31:50 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #openttd 16:33:02 *** perk11 [~perk11@31.181.40.32] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 16:34:25 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590ffe00.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 16:41:19 <Hirundo> Some (random) variety in riverbanks would be nice, probably a PITA to draw though 16:42:24 <planetmaker> that will be feasible 16:42:34 <planetmaker> though I don't have it in the immediate planning 16:42:48 <planetmaker> does NML do rivers meanwhile? I think not, right? 16:43:30 <planetmaker> I'm missing the easy math for height check in NFO which I grew so accustomed for with NML :-) 16:45:44 <Yexo> how are rivers coded? 16:46:28 <Hirundo> As canals (feature 5) IIRC 16:46:47 <planetmaker> yup 16:47:16 <planetmaker> feature5, ids 5 and 3 16:47:20 <planetmaker> s/3/2/ 16:47:25 <Yexo> so completely unsupported so far 16:48:11 <planetmaker> yes... it's one of those things where a lot of abstraction in principle could be used 16:48:41 <planetmaker> it works again slightly different to all other features 16:51:12 <Yexo> looks like both action0 properties can be automatically generated 16:51:21 <Yexo> so it would only need action3 16:52:33 <planetmaker> yes 16:52:42 <planetmaker> I don't see a need for the CB at all 16:54:38 <Hirundo> Indeed it's pretty pointless, I think 16:55:17 <Hirundo> offset would always be a multiple of the amount of sprites per 'block', but you might as well use a separate spriteset for that 16:55:31 <planetmaker> the graphics flag otoh is very useful and I use it. I just need permission to use the water sprite ;-) 16:56:01 <Yexo> the graphics bit could be detected automatically by the amount of sprites you provide 16:56:06 <planetmaker> yup 17:01:36 <Hirundo> Automatic detection might require stepping through all switch-blocks 17:07:04 <appe> http://gyazo.com/0feef97c91a9f91f8ab59d7962927e63 17:07:07 <appe> forgot the laptop on. :( 17:14:25 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 17:20:08 *** pjpe [ae5f3b40@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 17:23:37 <Yexo> Hirundo: I realize that, but I think a function for stepping through all switch blocks is beneficial in other situations too 17:37:40 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 17:37:43 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 17:40:03 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host26-234-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 17:40:14 <Wolf01> evenink 17:40:39 <Eddi|zuHause> knineve 17:40:50 <Alberth> moin Wolf01, Eddi|zuHause 17:42:46 <__ln__> ave lupus01 17:43:11 <__ln__> except... the romans didn't know zero. my apologies. 17:46:07 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22864 /trunk/src/lang/ (13 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed) 17:46:07 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:46:07 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: catalan - 6 changes by arnau 17:46:07 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: dutch - 1 changes by habell 17:46:07 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: french - 1 changes by Snail_ 17:46:08 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: italian - 3 changes by Snail_, lorenzodv 17:46:08 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: persian - 63 changes by Peymanpn 17:46:09 <Alberth> neither did they knew about 1 :p 17:46:24 <__ln__> nor about OpenTTD 17:46:56 <Eddi|zuHause> they did know rails and steam machines, but never thought about combining them 17:47:16 <Pinkbeast> Thinking about it wouldn't have done them any good with their metallurgy 17:51:40 *** Hyronymus [~chatzilla@s53757898.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd 17:55:37 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4db1a1bd.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 18:00:26 *** Strid_ [~Strid@c-adcee455.04-372-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #openttd 18:01:25 <Eddi|zuHause> but maybe the demand would have given a push to metallurgy research? 18:03:01 <__ln__> they should have set their goal for the Apollo program in the first place 18:03:19 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 18:14:54 <Pinkbeast> Eddi> The Romans didn't think in suchlike terms. I mean... they could have built pumping engines with the industrial base they had, and then they might have had the whole Industrial Revolution, but... 18:15:22 <Pinkbeast> ... all I'm saying is that knowing about steam-powered machinery and rails in Rome doesn't, alas, let you build a practical locomotive. 18:17:46 <Pinkbeast> ... it was tried several times here, but before you can make steel rails economically, it's no good. 18:18:08 *** Chruker [~no@5634a56d.rev.stofanet.dk] has joined #openttd 18:19:11 <Eddi|zuHause> the metallugically problematic part is the boiler and pistons, which have to endure heat and pressure 18:20:25 <Pinkbeast> You'd think that, but you'd be wrong. In the 19th century there were several working mine locomotives - working save that they constantly broke iron rails. 18:20:53 <Pinkbeast> ... I mean, obviously, yes, the boiler and pistons do have to endure heat and pressure, but it turns out making the rails is the harder problem. 18:21:05 <__ln__> were they good with some other material that can endure heat and pressure? 18:21:05 <Eddi|zuHause> in the wild west they had wooden rails with tiny iron plating 18:21:36 <Pinkbeast> ln> You can make a boiler from iron. It's heavy, but it works, and you only have to make one of it. 18:22:02 <Eddi|zuHause> you don't break any speed records on those, though... 18:22:21 <andythenorth> can't you can make a boiler from copper and staves? 18:22:40 <andythenorth> http://www.cheddarvalleysteam.co.uk/ 18:23:08 <Eddi|zuHause> copper might be available in smaller quantities than iron... 18:23:39 <Pinkbeast> Certainly Rocket's boiler tubes are copper 18:24:10 <__ln__> http://www.amazon.com/Shall-Never-Forget-Kids-Coloring/dp/1935266748/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1314892698&sr=8-1 18:26:05 *** TheMask96 [martijn@wrath.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:27:36 <Pinkbeast> The Romans would probably do better to build steam river tugs. 18:30:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i remember that on 11. September 2001 short after 15:00 (CEST) i went to watch Star Trek on TV, and thought "WTF? is that a movie?!?" 18:31:10 <Eddi|zuHause> and my brother played Transport Tycoon on my computer 18:31:36 *** TheMask96 [martijn@sloth.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 18:35:44 *** Lakie [~Lakie@82.153.138.44] has joined #openttd 18:36:56 <__ln__> i was watching some movie and heard about the thing an hour later than most. and didn't have any sort of internet connection in my apartment at the time. 18:39:15 <Sacro> http://i.imgur.com/LztEz.jpg 18:39:18 <Sacro> oof 18:45:52 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd 18:46:03 <__ln__> Sacro: i've seen something similar happen 18:47:36 <Eddi|zuHause> what exactly am i looking at? 18:51:01 <Eddi|zuHause> what i always wondered: if in a discharged lead-battery you have two plates with PbSO4, and in a charged lead-battery you have one plate of Pb and one of Pb(SO4)2, does it matter in which direction you charge it? 18:54:13 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 19:01:19 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 19:05:32 * Alberth would expect that such batterries are not entirely symmetric electrically 19:07:09 *** pjpe [ae5f3b40@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 19:07:31 <Hirundo> IIRC there's some PbO2 in there too 19:15:02 *** eQualizer [~lauri@dyn140-116.spy.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:20:20 <__ln__> C3PO 19:20:21 <Yexo> http://devs.openttd.org/~yexo/river.png Strange river (westmost-one), It starts on a mountain, ends on a tile without lake or sea 19:20:32 <Yexo> just before that it splits of to another part that runs to the sea 19:21:34 <andythenorth> random 19:21:40 <andythenorth> I like the river generator 19:21:46 <andythenorth> so many years of debate about it :P 19:21:47 <TWerkhoven> just means a second source? 19:22:02 * andythenorth points and waves at (a) docks (b) locks 19:22:10 <TWerkhoven> im more interested by the square lake at the bottom-right 19:22:14 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, it's a second river that starts at the bottom of the mountain and runs into the first 19:23:10 <Yexo> ah, indeed. Just the start of the first is a bit unlucky 19:25:46 <Eddi|zuHause> river generation needs a "canyon" mode. if it is stuck in a sink, choose to either generate a lake or a canyon (or both, in that order). the canyon will find another tile of the same height, and level mountains along a path to make room for the river. from that point on, "normal" river generation is continued 19:26:13 <Eddi|zuHause> until either the sea is reached, or the random decision results in "generate lake, but no canyone" 19:33:09 <__ln__> but eh, if Zefram Cochrane is from Alpha Centauri, not Earth, doesn't it take pretty much time to AC without warp? 19:34:36 *** pjpe [ae5f3b40@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 19:36:42 *** macee [~macee@dsl4E5C1FE2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #openttd 19:37:33 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22865 /trunk/src/newgrf_generic.cpp: -Fix (r13885): The GRFFile parameter for generic callbacks is a return parameter. 19:41:03 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22866 /trunk/src/newgrf_generic.cpp: -Fix (r16396): Generic callbacks shall chain to the next GRF when the callback fails. 19:41:32 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: alpha centauri is the nearest star, with about 4.2 light years 19:41:52 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: that is fairly reasonable to reach without light speed 19:42:49 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-27-158-233.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 19:43:48 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22867 /trunk/src/newgrf_generic.cpp: -Fix (r12122): Variables 40 and 81 of callback 18 are not the same as 80. 19:45:00 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like "why did nobody ever report this?" commits :) 19:45:11 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: ok, it's realistic then. 19:45:31 <Yexo> eddi: there is only one generic callback that is supported by OpenTTD, which is cb18 19:45:37 <Yexo> and even that one is only partially supported 19:45:56 <Yexo> as far as I know the only newgrf that implements that callback is ISR, and that has been working for years (even without those fixes) 19:47:18 <Eddi|zuHause> r22866 reads like "if a second grf implements cb18 and returns failed, then ISR gets broken, too" 19:47:36 <frosch123> yup 19:47:42 <frosch123> thus there is no such second grf :p 19:49:01 <Yexo> or ISR was always loaded after such a second grf, or nobody bothered to report a problem 19:49:17 <Yexo> the only "problem" that happens is that AIs will built default stations instead of NewGRF stations 19:49:37 <Yexo> and for that to work the AI has to support it too, so if it doesn't work you first have to check the AI, than the NewGRFs 19:51:05 *** Mks [~mks@c83-176-234-98.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:51:43 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, how do you proprose travelling 4.2 light years away? 19:52:05 <__ln__> btw, i have all the star trek series on dvd except the animated one in my bookshelf now :/ 19:53:09 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: even if you only reach 0.1*c, that means 42 years, which is possible within the lifetime of a human. 19:53:54 *** Mks [~mks@c83-176-234-98.cust.tele2.se] has joined #openttd 19:58:16 <frosch123> hmm are you aging faster or slower when moving fast? 19:58:39 <peter1138> slower 19:58:55 <peter1138> relative to something, heh 19:59:33 <frosch123> there was also some gravity component to it? 20:00:39 <peter1138> hmm, fastest we've launched is 36,900mph 20:00:58 <peter1138> quite a long way of 67,000,000mph of 0.1c :) 20:01:01 <peter1138> *off 20:04:09 <peter1138> hm 20:04:21 <peter1138> wonder where i left my landscape routines.. 20:05:55 *** Wolfsherz [~Wolfsherz@p57A6FB4E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 20:06:50 *** pjpe [ae5f3b40@ircip3.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 20:07:35 <appe> 0.1c is awesomly fast. 20:08:04 <appe> tip on any grf with trains that fast? :> 20:08:50 <frosch123> the "logic train" is the fastest one in ottd world afaik 20:09:32 *** Wolfsherz [~Wolfsherz@p57A6FB4E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 20:11:01 <andythenorth> good night 20:11:02 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 20:21:57 *** eQualizer [~lauri@46.163.224.65] has joined #openttd 20:27:26 <appe> frosch123: i dont get it. i have the grf, i loaded it and set the parameter to ..96. 20:27:27 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e091fee.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 20:27:43 <appe> but when i open a toyland map, i cant even build maglev (year 3000). 20:28:56 <frosch123> no idea, never used the grf 20:30:33 <Terkhen> good night 20:30:42 * appe dont understand. 20:30:47 <appe> doesnt. 20:33:03 <frosch123> yeah. looks like it does not work in toyland 20:33:07 <frosch123> only in the other climates 20:33:14 <frosch123> ask Ammler :) 20:34:07 <appe> oh, haha 20:34:27 * TrueBrain is sad 20:34:33 <TrueBrain> brickland never continues development 20:34:33 <appe> but 20:34:35 * TrueBrain is sad 20:34:40 <appe> i dont find any new train? 20:35:00 <frosch123> it works in the other three climates 20:35:08 <frosch123> it is a maglev engine available from year 0 20:35:14 <appe> yes 20:35:18 <appe> im in the normal mode 20:35:31 <appe> year 40000 20:35:35 <frosch123> just set it to 60000 km/h 20:35:46 <appe> where, and how? :D 20:35:48 <frosch123> then you can sometimes spot the train :p 20:36:10 <frosch123> in main menu open the grf configuration, select the grf, click configure parameters 20:36:15 <appe> ah, ok 20:36:23 <frosch123> select "1 parameter" and set that one to the speed you want 20:36:27 <Ammler> 06 07 // climate availability 20:36:27 <frosch123> max is likely 65535 20:37:03 <appe> i ahm there we are 20:37:04 <appe> neat. 20:37:04 <Ammler> no clue why that is set 20:37:12 <appe> oops. 20:38:22 *** jpx_ [jpx_@a91-156-250-245.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:38:28 <appe> jesus 20:38:35 <appe> it has the worst acceleration in history 20:38:39 <appe> how can i affect that? 20:39:33 <Ammler> logic train has instant acceleration, afaik at least fasted possible 20:39:55 <frosch123> Ammler: maybe it has no te 20:39:59 <frosch123> so you cannot attach anything 20:40:02 <Ammler> http://svn.openttdcoop.org/grfdev/logic/makegrf 20:40:06 <Eddi|zuHause> you need high TE, high power and low air resistance 20:40:30 <Ammler> isn't TE unnecessary on maglev? 20:40:44 <appe> Ammler: uhm, when i set the parameter, i get the gator train with the set speed 20:40:50 <frosch123> yeah, when you attach wagons it takes quite some time :p 20:40:50 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, probably 20:40:59 <appe> :p 20:41:16 <Ammler> never tested with waggons... 20:41:31 <frosch123> yeah, too few power 20:41:41 <Ammler> frosch123: max possible? 20:41:43 <frosch123> it is stuck at 11886 km/h 20:41:54 <frosch123> 66447 hp 20:41:57 <Ammler> 0B FF FF // Power 20:42:00 <TheHog> Yexo: there? i guess i fixed all issues we talked about (2-way feeder) ... by only using my new logic when the current order of a vehicle in a station is 'transfer && !no_load' 20:42:08 <frosch123> Ammler: i attached 5 empty wagons 20:42:14 <frosch123> so the train has a weigt of 96 t 20:43:24 <frosch123> hmm, with 2 wagons (39t) it is the same 20:44:31 <Ammler> well, I guess the acceleration behavoior changed since the last time I played with that train :-) 20:44:34 <frosch123> might be some rounding problem 20:44:36 <Eddi|zuHause> without friction, you have a don't-care on the mass for the maximum reachable speed 20:44:59 <Eddi|zuHause> P/v = F_drag + F_frict 20:45:10 <frosch123> with no wagons (1t) it reaches 48104, while 50292 is max 20:45:20 <frosch123> might be airdrag 20:45:35 <Yexo> TheHog: great :). Now you can convince another dev to include it 20:46:12 <TheHog> yexo: first i need your convidence :) do you think that's a valid way? 20:46:21 <TheHog> i'm now running some test games 20:46:42 <TheHog> a) the trick still works 20:47:11 <Yexo> I think it's better than before, but impossible to make it work in every case without a cargo destinations patch 20:47:14 <TheHog> b) the A-B-C coal->power plant, C drops, D new power plant works also 20:47:24 <Yexo> hence personally I'd prefer to wait for that and not implement a stop-gap now 20:48:11 <TheHog> yeah but I think cargodst will make openttd so much different than the original.. it would almost be openttd 2.0 :) 20:48:20 <Yexo> the "trick" can be implemented using all kinds of orders btw, also with "transfer && !load" orders 20:48:35 <Eddi|zuHause> the typical counter-example is 3 airports ABC with aircraft on each route, and bus feeders from each airport to the respective city. how do you prevent cargo going in circles on the aircraft, never reaching the city? 20:48:39 <TheHog> yeah ok 20:49:08 <TheHog> Eddi|zuHause: my patch does that.. let me explain 20:49:32 <TheHog> it check if the loading vehicle has the order 'transfer and pickup' 20:49:32 <Yexo> TheHog: are you sure? your patch works for the bus part, but won't the aircraft still take the passengers? 20:50:05 <TheHog> and then checks if the loading cargo is not already picked up at the same route of the vehicle 20:50:27 <TheHog> Yexo: still using tranfers_at_xy but using a validation in front of it.. let me post a patch.. w8 20:50:54 <TheHog> still have to do some sanity checking.. but I guess i'm almost there 20:51:41 <Eddi|zuHause> TheHog: even if it catches that. then, what about 4 airports? 20:52:25 <TheHog> same.. because it is the same route 20:52:43 <Yexo> I'd really like to see that patch, as I don't believe it right now 20:52:47 <TheHog> it will not pickup cargo that is picked up somewhere on the same route 20:53:07 <Yexo> either it doesn't work or it uses insane amounts of memory 20:53:45 <TheHog> let me upload it to the bugtracker w8 20:54:50 <TheHog> http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4154 there it is 20:56:54 <Yexo> TheHog: 3 airports, A <> B, B <> C, C <> A. All aircraft fly between two of those airports with transfer & load orders on both sides 20:57:07 <TheHog> btw, got a small warning while compile current trunk on tree_gui.cpp (not my mod) 20:57:12 <Yexo> at every airport there is a but that loads in the city center, transfers and the airport and takes passengers back to the city 20:57:49 <Yexo> which os/compiler are you using and can you copy/paste that warning? 20:58:17 <TheHog> c++ 2010 .. < signed/unsigned warning 20:58:27 <TheHog> - for (uint i = this->base; i < this->base + this->count; i++) { 20:58:27 <TheHog> + for (uint16 i = this->base; i < this->base + this->count; i++) { 20:58:37 <Yexo> passengers coming from A and transferring at B can be picked up by an aircraft going B <> C, than at C pickup up by an aircraft going C <> A, at A by aircraft going A <> B etc. 20:58:47 <TheHog> line 91 21:00:23 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 21:00:26 <TheHog> Yexo: true.. that still makes passengers go round circles 21:00:42 *** macee [~macee@dsl4E5C1FE2.pool.t-online.hu] has left #openttd [] 21:01:19 <TheHog> you could explain that by 'breaking the chain would break the feeder logic' 21:01:37 <TheHog> no that is not correct.. w8 :) 21:03:06 <TheHog> but that would not really be a big problem.. the planes load balance the passengers on those three airports so that busses can keep up 21:04:37 <TheHog> eventually the busses will take the passengers out of the airports 21:06:17 <Yexo> passengers start at A, are taken to B (that's ok), than to C (you could argue still ok), but if at that point they're taken back to A something is wrong 21:06:28 <Yexo> as they can't go to the city A 21:06:57 <TheHog> hmm indeed 21:07:05 <Wolf01> 'night 21:07:08 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host26-234-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 21:07:18 <TheHog> but that can easily be fixed by another check 21:07:42 <TheHog> check with cp->source before picking up 21:08:02 <TheHog> to make sure the bus at A does not pick up the passengers at the airport A 21:08:52 <TheHog> but,.. that eventually will break 4-feeder-stage 21:09:41 <Yexo> as I said before: I don't think you can solve the issue without some destinations patch 21:09:43 <TheHog> say for example bus->train->airport (circle) -> same train -> bus does not pick the passengers from trainstation and train also 21:09:52 * Zuu is happy to see that the RoadAI highly utilizse the SuperLib library. 21:10:05 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-108-48.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 21:10:16 <TheHog> Yexo: indeed but I think this is a much asked improvement of the current logic 21:10:21 <Yexo> it's been on my TODO list for a very long time to check SuperLib and use in in AdmiralAI 21:10:25 <Zuu> It uses SuperLib for station building, road building, logging, setting orders, the helpers and possible something more. :-) 21:10:26 <Yexo> but I haven't worked on it for a long time 21:11:15 <Zuu> It even uses a function that implements PAXLink-ish engine selection. :-) 21:11:25 <TheHog> and then again,.. no one uses transfer && load now because it makes no sense currently 21:11:51 <Yexo> TheHog: perhaps, my stand on it hasn't changed though: I think it makes it even more unclear how orders work exactly, so for that reason I won't commit it. I'm not really against it, so if you can convince another dev to commit it, fine. 21:13:06 <TheHog> ok i'll try.. 21:13:10 <Zuu> RoadAI has just 696 lines of code. 21:13:23 <TheHog> I stumbled uppon this line today 'Am I correct or did I miss anything? I play OpenTTD just for a couple of weeks, may be I am totally wrong. This problem stopped my enthusiasm a bit since I feel it should be possible to solve this problem in a nice way' 21:13:27 <TheHog> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=48363 21:14:31 <TheHog> who are the others devs again? 21:15:11 <Yexo> everyone with ops or voice in this channel, or see http://www.openttd.org/en/contact 21:15:19 <TheHog> planetmaker: did you copy the last half hour of logs? 21:15:41 <Yexo> TheHog: I've read that topic before, as you see Alberth seems to agree with my standpoint 21:15:57 <Yexo> "Since your algorithm does not cover such cases, the only way out is to throw your algorithm away, and design and implement one that really works. I believe time is better spent by designing a proper generic solution in the first place." 21:16:02 *** snack2 [~nn@dsl-hkibrasgw1-ff1cc000-21.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com )] 21:16:50 *** douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-79-222.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:16:54 <TheHog> yeah ok that's the final conclusion but it started with 'losing enthusiasm'.. i guess a lot of people stop at that point and don't even bother 21:16:59 <Yexo> and if you want an answer from pm for example, it's better to ask your question directly. There are publicly available logs of this channel, so he can always read back 21:17:09 <TheHog> k 21:19:42 <TheHog> things a man must do to make the world a better place :) 21:24:53 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590ffe00.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:30:45 *** JVassie [~James@2.27.86.130] has joined #openttd 21:31:05 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:42:46 *** pjpe [ae5f3b40@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 21:46:22 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [] 21:48:55 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-178-004-183-167.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... 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