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00:10:24 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: glx * r22898 /trunk/src/core/bitmath_func.hpp: -Codechange: use MSVC compiler intrinsics for byte swapping 00:22:43 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19AA2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:41:01 *** perk11 [~perk11@188.255.47.217] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! 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FIRS question. Can the translation change cargo units? Instead of crates, can supplys be measured in pieces? I mean can the text be "2 supplies" instead of "2 creates of supplies"? 09:46:34 <Yexo> if done consistently, I don't see why not? 09:46:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i believe so 09:46:40 <Terkhen> I think so, yes 09:49:15 *** MNIM [~mBuntu@ip5452ffad.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has left #openttd [Oops. Did i really want to do that, or was it just my window focus again?] 09:50:22 *** Mazur [~mazur@5ED2BEAE.cm-7-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:53:37 *** Mazur [~mazur@5ED2BEAE.cm-7-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 10:00:46 <George> How? STR_CARGO_UNIT_FMSP :{SIGNED_WORD} ÑпакПвПк ÑелÑÑ ÐŸÐ·ÑПваÑПв 10:01:03 <George> what should I use? 10:01:37 <George> STR_CARGO_UNIT_FMSP :{SIGNED_WORD} агÑПÑÐµÑ ÑÑеЎÑÑв ? 10:01:46 <Yexo> just use :{SIGNED_WORD} supplies ? 10:02:10 <George> Щл 10:02:44 <George> And is it possible to change the weight and reduce the amount? 10:02:53 <Eddi|zuHause> no 10:02:56 <Yexo> no 10:03:12 <George> For example have something like {SIGNED_WORD/10} агÑПÑÐµÑ ÑÑеЎÑÑв ? 10:03:24 <Yexo> not possible, there is no support for that in nfo 10:04:12 <George> And whom may I suggest to change the measure for supplies 10:04:26 <Yexo> andy as author of FIRS 10:04:38 <Yexo> although I'm not sure it's possible to change this at all 10:04:54 <Yexo> that is, without changing the amount of supplies that is produced 10:05:35 <George> Would it be too bad to change it? 10:06:06 <Yexo> supplies production is already low 10:06:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i think the game can only handle smaller weights, 1 unit of cargo must be a fraction of 1t 10:06:49 <Eddi|zuHause> so you can't have "1 Tractor" unit that has a weight of 15t 10:07:18 <George> Eddi|zuHause: ECS vehicles weighs 2,5 tons 10:07:34 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, then i don't know 10:07:41 <George> You can have up to 16t per unit 10:07:56 <Yexo> George: ah, you only want to change the weight of the supplies? 10:08:12 <Yexo> that wouldn't be so bad 10:08:31 <George> Increase the weight and reduce the amount of units per vehicles 10:08:47 <George> per vehicle 10:08:58 <Yexo> is there a value for the latter in nfo? 10:09:22 <Eddi|zuHause> there is an automatic conversion factor 10:09:33 <Eddi|zuHause> during refitting 10:09:39 <George> you mean http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Cargos#Weight_of_one_unit_of_the_cargo_.280F.29 ? 10:09:47 <Eddi|zuHause> which the newgrf can ignore, though 10:09:50 <Yexo> no, I know that one 10:11:38 <George> so, what do you think about this idea? Should I contact andy or not? 10:11:40 <Eddi|zuHause> weight multiplier is applied to capacity, unless you use callback 15 10:13:51 <Terkhen> George: besides having to modify all NewGRFs that support FIRS, I don't have a strong opinion on this matter 10:14:47 <George> only CB 15 calls should be changed ;) 10:15:15 <Eddi|zuHause> sane people use CB 36 ;) 10:15:41 <Terkhen> it's work nonetheless 10:16:21 <George> Yes, it would require some change, but I suppose it is not insane ;) 10:16:24 <Eddi|zuHause> George: if you can run this past andythenorth, i say go ahead ;) 10:16:44 <George> You mean you like the idea? 10:16:59 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 10:17:20 <George> Yexo, Terkhen, what do you think? 10:18:25 <Eddi|zuHause> might need a few tweaks to cargo production, though 10:18:32 <Terkhen> I think that farm supplies with vehicle-like weight will look strange when coming from a fertiliser plant :) 10:19:03 <Terkhen> same thing happens now with small stuff weight coming from "vehicles" 10:19:09 <Terkhen> so I don't have a strong opinion either way 10:19:18 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but that comes with the genericity of the cargo. it's equally strange that a tractor weighs 1t 10:19:42 <George> why? A BIG box of fertilizer ;) 10:19:47 <Yexo> George: it would require some careful tweaks to the cargo production, but over I like it 10:20:07 <George> Ok, I'll contact andy 10:21:21 <planetmaker> what weight should a unit of fertilizer have in your eyes? 10:22:01 <George> a unit of farm supplies. about 10t 10:22:10 <Eddi|zuHause> fertilizer is usually bulk cargo 10:22:15 <planetmaker> yes 10:22:18 <Eddi|zuHause> so it doesn't really matter 10:23:17 <Eddi|zuHause> George: the interesting part about that is that you can't use the HEQS Gmund Mog for supplies anymore (2t capacity) 10:23:23 <planetmaker> IMHO 10t is too much 10:23:30 <planetmaker> it would not fit with fertilizer at all 10:23:56 <planetmaker> or it would make sense to deliver 3 units of fertilizer per year and farm or so 10:23:57 <Terkhen> urgh, true 10:24:01 <Terkhen> I want to use the gmund mog :P 10:24:17 <Terkhen> I usually have a swarm of those things moving everywhere when I play FIRS 10:24:21 <planetmaker> 10t is fine if you assume FMSP to be a tractor 10:24:27 <planetmaker> but that's not the only interpretation 10:24:54 <planetmaker> what is the benefit of changing it from 1unit=1t to 1unit=10t? 10:25:25 <George> planetmaker: And what would be wrong with fertilizer? Usually you deliver a truck of them IRL, that is several (5-8) tons of cargo 10:25:43 <planetmaker> that's exactly what you do 10:26:09 <George> the benefit is to have a truck ful loaded instead of going almost empty 10:26:18 <planetmaker> but it means IMHO to decrease the granularity to too big units 10:26:43 <planetmaker> I could go with like 3t 10:27:03 <planetmaker> would be roughly a m^3 of fertilizer 10:27:08 <planetmaker> actually 2 10:27:19 <George> 3t is to little for a truck ;) 10:27:50 <hanf> if on the webtranslator there's no "needs translator" does that mean someone is working on it? when I get back to uni I could do faroese and finish off the chinese if necessary, but not if someone is working on it! 10:27:50 <George> I want to make a delivery more realistic 10:27:52 <planetmaker> A big truck should carry more than one supply 10:27:54 <Terkhen> that size is perfect for delivering supplies 10:28:02 <planetmaker> A gmund can carry one or two units 10:28:15 <planetmaker> but a full-sized truck should carry more than one, two units 10:28:30 <Terkhen> hanf: IIRC the "needs translator" appears when more than 100 strings are missing a translation 10:28:49 <planetmaker> there's a config file setting for that 10:28:57 <Terkhen> faroese would welcome a translator :) 10:29:04 <planetmaker> Mine is at one :-) 10:29:28 <Terkhen> both chinese variants have some recent strings missing 10:29:40 <Terkhen> see http://translator.openttd.org/en/status 10:29:42 <hanf> Terkhen: ah okay. I don't speak faroese but have plenty of faroese friends at uni :P 10:29:45 <planetmaker> Terkhen, I think the gmund with a capacity of one or two supplies, that's good. But a full truck could well deliver 5 ... 10 units 10:29:45 <hanf> yeah I'm looking at that now 10:29:54 <planetmaker> and a train 10 10:29:58 <planetmaker> *train wagon 10:30:34 <planetmaker> The units fmsp transported in ogfx+ sets is set to low anyway 10:30:47 <planetmaker> and that is easy to do for vehicle sets, George 10:31:01 <planetmaker> it's thus just a matter of weight 10:31:56 <George> that is why I suggest to make it larger 10:33:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i was thinking around 4t per units 10:33:57 <Eddi|zuHause> a railway wagon with 30t capacity would then carry 7 units 10:34:18 <Eddi|zuHause> a truck with 12t capacity would carry 3 units 10:34:35 <Terkhen> as long as the gmund can carry a single unit, I don't mind the changes 10:34:41 <Terkhen> I don't want this to break my way of playing FIRS :P 10:35:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know how the rounding is done 10:35:10 <George> well, I do not say 10t is the best value, I only suggest to make weight larger and capacity smaller 10:35:27 <Eddi|zuHause> if in doubt, implement HEQS with cb15 to force minimum 1 unit ;) 10:40:31 <Yexo> George: if you're seriously looking at the Russian translation for FIRS, you might want to add plurals/gender/cases support too 10:42:03 <planetmaker> Terkhen, yes, the gmund IMHO should be the unit-definition for supplies 10:42:10 <Terkhen> :) 10:42:16 <George> sorry, I'm not familar with the way to code them, but we are currently have a discussion on the russion forums about FIRS translation, so I hope that we would do it by the team. 10:43:28 <Eddi|zuHause> the german translation uses genders, and the hungarian translation uses cases, if you need examples 10:44:10 <George> planetmaker: > gmund IMHO should be the unit-definition for supplies - I think not ;) it should hust have the capacity 1 unit. But the weight should be counted based on average truck, having 2-3 units capacity 10:44:26 <George> so that was the reason for 10t 10:44:42 <planetmaker> George, and there I disagree 10:44:48 <planetmaker> An average truck should have more capacity 10:44:56 <Eddi|zuHause> rv capacities in the game are generally higher than "realistic" 10:45:03 <George> how many? 10:45:10 <planetmaker> We use 10 ... 15 10:45:19 <planetmaker> which IMHO is a good thing for FIRS 10:45:26 <Yexo> George: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/561/ <- that might be helpful as examples 10:45:28 <George> 10 supplies? 10:45:38 <planetmaker> yes 10:45:42 <George> isn't it too much? 10:45:45 <planetmaker> no 10:45:50 <planetmaker> I don't think so 10:46:09 <planetmaker> The big trucks carry more than just a bit 10:46:19 <planetmaker> and a unit can be less than a full tractor ;-) 10:46:32 <George> what is the profit to deliver 10, if the industry needs 1. You can't say the truck to unload 1 unit of cargo, can't you? 10:46:36 <planetmaker> I don't consider tractor the unit 10:46:57 <planetmaker> George, industries can use more than one 10:47:12 <Eddi|zuHause> George: industries might require more than 1 unit in the future 10:47:16 <planetmaker> And it will in the future also become interesting to deliver more 10:47:26 <George> how much? 10:47:45 <Eddi|zuHause> the suggestion was to increase it with the production multiplier 10:47:48 <planetmaker> depends :-) ^ 10:47:53 <George> The max required amount should define the truck capacity ;) 10:48:29 <George> Eddi|zuHause: with the production multiplier - how much? 10:48:41 <planetmaker> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2296 10:48:49 <Eddi|zuHause> details might be tunable 10:49:09 <planetmaker> I don't think that's how it works... max amount = truck amount 10:50:35 <planetmaker> though of course it's an indicator. But there are too many ways to play 10:51:56 <Eddi|zuHause> in my YACD/FIRS game i put one FMSP wagon to the pick up trains, and had trains with larger capacity run through the major hubs to distribute the supplies 10:52:29 <planetmaker> yup, that's how I used it, too 10:52:48 <planetmaker> full supply-only trains among hubs. 10:53:05 <planetmaker> and locally either that way. Or trains which visited all industries subsequently 10:53:53 <Eddi|zuHause> problem was that it was difficult to determine whether an industry gets supplies every month 10:54:21 <planetmaker> yes. That's one of the things we plan to make easier. By somewhat introducing something similar to a stockpile for that 10:55:06 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that was kinda the source of my suggestion 11:01:53 <George> Andy wrote "I quite like this idea. I think it could work well" 11:05:28 <planetmaker> he hasn't yet thought it through, I'm sure ;-) 11:10:13 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@i59F6D22A.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 11:14:30 *** EmperorJake [~jake@27-33-135-224.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #openttd 11:17:13 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.165.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:43:02 <Eddi|zuHause> when was the last time andy thought _anything_ through? ;) 12:14:34 *** EmperorJake [~jake@27-33-135-224.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 12:24:38 *** perk11 [~perk11@188.255.47.217] has joined #openttd 12:27:34 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 12:49:24 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:a09c:542f:a85d:f36c] has joined #openttd 12:49:28 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 12:50:40 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #openttd 12:53:05 *** jpx_ [jpx_@a91-156-244-221.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd 12:57:00 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [] 13:24:06 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 13:32:43 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r22899 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Add: Allow towns to build bridges over canals and rivers. 13:41:06 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 13:44:48 *** Markk [mark@rikskriminalpolisen.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:45:08 *** Markk [mark@rikskriminalpolisen.com] has joined #openttd 13:45:46 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:52:29 <Belugas> hello 13:54:57 *** Swissfan91 [Swissfan91@5e0ad068.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 14:08:12 *** perk11 [~perk11@188.255.47.217] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 14:10:31 *** Swissfan91 [Swissfan91@5e0ad068.bb.sky.com] has quit [] 14:10:33 *** Swissfan91 [Swissfan91@5e0ad068.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 14:37:06 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 14:59:16 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 15:07:46 *** Elukka [Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 15:08:32 <Elukka> i may have asked this yesterday but i was half asleep and don't remember :D 15:08:38 <Elukka> are there train sets with full, graphical support for FIRS? 15:09:39 <Terkhen> opengfx+ trains 15:10:01 <Terkhen> besides that, maybe 2cc 15:10:05 *** douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-83-190.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 15:10:14 <Elukka> alright 15:10:17 <Yexo> depends on the version of FIRS 15:10:25 <Yexo> for current trunk probably none 15:10:33 <Terkhen> really? what was added? 15:10:39 <Terkhen> I only remember alcohol 15:10:43 <Yexo> sugarbeet / sugarcane split 15:10:47 <Terkhen> oh, that :) 15:10:56 <Terkhen> I'm going to test what happens with ogfx-rv now 15:11:17 <Yexo> most likely supported, just without special graphics, hence no "full, graphical support" 15:13:05 <Terkhen> yes, sugar beet looks like coal in ogfx-rv, and probably the same happens with ogfx-trains 15:13:10 <Terkhen> so... probably none :P 15:13:20 * Terkhen fixes it now 15:14:31 <Elukka> heh 15:14:47 <Elukka> for most cargos it'd probably look better if missing cargo graphics had a medium brown color than black coal 15:15:19 <Terkhen> at least in OpenGFX+ Road Vehicles, the idea is to have full support for all cargos 15:15:26 <Terkhen> black coal is very noticeable 15:15:32 <Terkhen> so bugs and omissions are easy to spot :) 15:16:06 <Elukka> my favorite train sets are dbset and nars and both are coal everywhere 15:16:30 <Terkhen> dbset has a FIRS addon, but IIRC it is quite outdated 15:16:42 <Elukka> yeah 15:16:53 <Elukka> better than nothing i suppose 15:16:59 <Eddi|zuHause> DBSetXL 0.9 has a prospected release date of 11.11.11 15:17:17 <Terkhen> and from what I read back then, the addon will be only updated once that FIRS reaches cargo stability :P 15:17:26 <Elukka> dbset has ongoing development? :O 15:17:45 <Elukka> heh, i can see why they'd want to do that 15:17:57 <Terkhen> is proper support for all FIRS cargos planned for it? 15:18:12 <Elukka> how hard would it be to get at the sprites and just change the color of stuff? 15:18:14 <Eddi|zuHause> well, semi-proper... 15:18:27 <Elukka> never touched grfs 15:18:32 <Eddi|zuHause> MB and andy "agreed to disagree" on certain parts :p 15:18:40 <Terkhen> so no support 15:19:04 <Terkhen> Elukka: that's what I'm going to do now for sugar cane and sugar beet on ogfx-rv... recolouring of existing cargo sprites 15:19:14 <Terkhen> but for stuff that is not bulk, modifying sprites is more complicated 15:19:29 <Elukka> that's what i'd like to do for dbset and maybe nars 15:19:46 <Elukka> boxcars and such don't matter much but open bulk cargo is really noticeable 15:19:53 <Yexo> with dbset it's not so useful since you won't be allowed to distribute the result 15:19:56 <Yexo> for nars I'm not sure 15:20:01 <Eddi|zuHause> if i read things right, the problematic part are "supplies", which might get generic boxes. other cargos should be fine 15:20:47 <Elukka> i'd just like to make a quick fix for myself :D 15:21:24 <Terkhen> yes... that's the problem with restrictive licenses 15:21:30 <Terkhen> a lot of work is never shared 15:21:46 <Terkhen> you might want to help with CETS :P 15:21:57 <Elukka> what's CETS? 15:22:16 <Yexo> central-european train set 15:22:39 <Terkhen> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets <--- some people in this channel are working on it 15:22:55 <Elukka> ooh 15:23:02 <Eddi|zuHause> bulk cargos might be done by recolour tables 15:23:08 <planetmaker> Yexo: ogfx+trains already supports it in nightly ;-) 15:23:16 <Terkhen> recolour tables? what's that? :P 15:23:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i just haven 15:23:43 <Eddi|zuHause> 't looked into the details yet 15:24:01 <Eddi|zuHause> cargo wagon scheme is kinda low on the priority list 15:24:03 <Elukka> i think i'd be more familiar with making 3D models and rendering those like people do for 32bpp graphics but i suppose i could draw decent sprites 15:24:23 <Elukka> can't hurt to try, at least 15:24:39 <Terkhen> some people makes 3D models and then converts them to 8bpp sprites somehow 15:25:03 <Terkhen> after that, they tweak the sprites 15:25:08 <Elukka> i'm not sure if that's worth the effort since the sprites are so small 15:25:11 <Elukka> unless you already have the models 15:25:13 <planetmaker> but ogfx+trains takes just the raw sugar sprites. no variation so far 15:25:34 <Terkhen> ogfx-rv does not have sprites for either type of raw sugar cargo 15:25:53 <planetmaker> trains have just some colour variation on the bulk 15:26:05 <planetmaker> but not recolour sprite variation ;-) 15:26:08 * Terkhen checks the sprites 15:26:19 <Elukka> suppose i wanted to try drawing sprites for CETS... where would i find out what's needed, and what style the existing sprites are so i could try to emulate that? 15:26:24 <Terkhen> I could release a new version of ogfx-rv in time for FIRS testing 15:26:37 <Terkhen> but I'll probably play more with eGRVTS 2 than with my own trucks :P 15:26:42 <planetmaker> :-) 15:26:59 <Yexo> Elukka: ask Eddi|zuHause 15:27:19 * Elukka pokes Eddi|zuHause 15:27:26 <Yexo> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets <- there is the project page 15:28:47 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:29:04 <Eddi|zuHause> the sprite templates are here: https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets/repository/show/src/gfx 15:29:45 <Elukka> oh, those should simplify things 15:29:51 <Eddi|zuHause> some graphics are here: https://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2924 15:30:03 <Elukka> are those... templates for curved track? 15:30:12 <Eddi|zuHause> the length of the wagons are not fully decided yet 15:30:17 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 15:30:29 <Eddi|zuHause> it's either 24m=16lu or 24m=12lu 15:30:59 <Eddi|zuHause> (1 standard TTD wagon = 8lu) 15:31:11 <Elukka> you can do longer wagons these days? 15:31:25 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a bit hacky :) 15:31:46 <Elukka> it's something i've wanted to see for a long time 15:31:52 <Elukka> does it work? 15:32:20 <Eddi|zuHause> need this patch to test the GRF: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=51697 15:33:30 <Elukka> i have some german umbauwagen models (as in physical models) handy that would make for good sprite drawing reference for me :P 15:34:00 <Elukka> so do both locomotives and wagons attempt to have realistic proportions? 15:34:22 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 15:34:51 <Elukka> hm, besides looking better that should make drawing a bit easier 15:35:08 <Eddi|zuHause> oberhÃŒmer wants to draw to the 24m=12lu proportions 15:35:14 <Elukka> what's lu? 15:35:20 <planetmaker> length unit 15:35:22 <Eddi|zuHause> length units 15:35:27 <Elukka> ah 15:35:32 <Eddi|zuHause> 16lu=1tile 15:36:02 <Elukka> so the 12 angles you have in the templates... 15:36:06 <Eddi|zuHause> it's the smallest unit available in the game for movement, bounding boxes, etc. 15:36:16 <Elukka> is someone developing actual curved track? 15:36:34 <Eddi|zuHause> not that i know of 15:36:49 <Elukka> why so many angles then? 15:36:57 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:37:12 <Eddi|zuHause> because with only 4 views, the long wagons stick too far out 15:37:20 <Elukka> oh true 15:38:04 <Elukka> i'm having trouble picturing how the 12 angles work with 8 track angles though 15:38:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i have an idea how to do matching curved tracks, but it's kind of not a priority, and current railtype specs don't allow enough variables 15:38:51 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: download the grf and check it out 15:39:12 <Elukka> i can't compile the patch D: 15:39:45 <Eddi|zuHause> except the full-tile wagons, most things should still work with unpatched openttd 15:39:57 <Elukka> alright, i'll try 15:40:12 <Elukka> hey, assuming i can get anything done 15:40:13 <Elukka> http://www.gscalecentral.co.uk/f/download.axd?file=4;84709&where=msg 15:40:18 <Elukka> these cars were permanently coupled in pairs 15:40:26 <Elukka> should that be two separate cars or one long car in game? 15:40:39 <Elukka> hm. i suppose two separate cars so articulation works 15:41:09 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, articulated should be separate 15:41:35 <Ammler> http://www.tt-ms.de/forum/showthread.php?tid=5396 <-- cets2 :-) 15:42:22 <Elukka> one more question before i try doing anything... how do i get the scale right 15:42:27 <Elukka> are the boxes in the template absolute bounding boxes? 15:42:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: i'm quite sure our set has some distinction to theirs 15:42:33 <Elukka> like, would a wagon's curved roof go under or above the box 15:43:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: the green boxes are mere suggestions. 2px=1m is oberhÃŒmers suggested scale 15:43:37 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-78-102-233-190.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 15:43:44 <Elukka> i see 15:44:35 <Elukka> http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Railway/IMG_2725.jpg 15:44:43 <Elukka> now i have work to do both on physical and pixel trains :p 15:45:14 <Eddi|zuHause> the difference between the 16lu=24m or 12lu=24m is whether to take the / view as to-scale and the - view as elongated, or to see the - view as to scale and the / view shortened 15:45:30 <Eddi|zuHause> TTD-scale-problems are ugly 15:45:45 <Elukka> i suppose the most important thing is consistency 15:46:18 <Eddi|zuHause> be careful with railway models, they're sometimes not fully to scale either 15:46:40 <Elukka> yeah i know 15:46:41 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. H0 is originally 1:87, but some wagons are shortened to 1:100 15:46:48 <Elukka> the longer coaches tend not to be 15:48:58 <Elukka> i've seen many a heated discussion on shortened H0 coaches :) 15:52:46 <Elukka> erm, where can i find the cets grf? 15:53:31 <Eddi|zuHause> eurgh... "the usual places" 15:54:24 <Elukka> i was trying to dig in the repository 15:55:14 <Eddi|zuHause> https://bundles.openttdcoop.org/cets/nightlies/ 15:55:32 <Elukka> i see, thanks 15:55:48 <Eddi|zuHause> try r140, the longest wagons should work better there 15:59:28 <Elukka> oh that's terribly pretty 16:00:16 <Elukka> gonna practice drawing something 16:00:49 <Eddi|zuHause> the vehicle lifetimes are not implemented properly yet, so best used with "vehicles never expire" 16:01:05 <Eddi|zuHause> also check out the GRF parameters 16:01:14 <Elukka> green boxes! 16:07:47 <Elukka> do i just pick whichever template fits the real rolling stock best? 16:10:38 <Eddi|zuHause> you take the real vehicle length, e.g. 14m, and divide that by the scale 24/12 or 24/16. so you have 14/24*12 = 7 or 14/24*16 = 9.3 (rounded to 10) 16:11:06 <Eddi|zuHause> so you take the 7lu template if you want to stick to oberhÃŒmer's scale 16:12:10 <Eddi|zuHause> like i said, there was no final decision yet 16:13:17 <Elukka> alright 16:14:00 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@0278a82f.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 16:14:25 <planetmaker> hm, no final decision albeit oberhuemer already draws? 16:14:47 <Eddi|zuHause> well, he did that on his own risk 16:18:07 <planetmaker> For no good reason other than "if longer, then properly" I prefer the 16 lu solution. 16:19:30 <Elukka> i'm gonna stick to ober's scale 16:20:31 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i'm not too strong on the opinion anymore. the "problem" is both work out equally well in my head :) 16:21:52 <Elukka> i like as realistic proportions as possible but i'll just go along with whatever's being used 16:22:12 <planetmaker> well... what's the argument for one or the other? Or why not 8lu? 16:25:50 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 16:26:38 <Eddi|zuHause> the argument against 8lu is that the shorter vehicles get too short, causing offset issues and lack of details in graphics 16:27:31 <Eddi|zuHause> even in the 16lu case i have problems getting the 3lu/4lu tenders to fit in the movement scheme 16:28:05 <planetmaker> too short? 16:28:31 <Eddi|zuHause> for very short vehicles, the turning point is outside the vehicle 16:29:13 <Eddi|zuHause> which makes for some odd effects in curves 16:33:03 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 16:34:14 <planetmaker> hm. But that might probably be rather fixed in OpenTTD? 16:34:53 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but this is problematic, as it may potentially break existing grfs which abuse the feature or implement countermeasures 16:35:54 <planetmaker> would need checking 16:36:24 <Eddi|zuHause> no, it needs a flag to switch the behaviour from old to new 16:37:28 <planetmaker> or that... though if it breaks no newgrf, it can be changed 16:37:29 <Eddi|zuHause> (much like 32px vehicles) 16:37:59 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: any grf making use of var45 is affected 16:38:12 <Eddi|zuHause> var45 has existed for years 16:39:15 <planetmaker> it has. But I'm not sure how many sets really would use it 16:39:30 <planetmaker> I can imagine definitely not more than a hand full 16:39:41 <Eddi|zuHause> that is not the point 16:40:03 <Eddi|zuHause> alone the existence of LV5-test grfs is enough 16:41:32 *** Mks [~mks@c83-176-234-98.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:43:06 <Elukka> is the bottom of the template box the part that touches the rails? 16:43:46 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 16:44:16 <Elukka> hm. with 12 angles it might just be worth it to make a real quick 3D model first... 16:45:48 *** Mks [~mks@c83-176-234-98.cust.tele2.se] has joined #openttd 16:49:30 <peter1138> make 360 angles 16:50:35 *** Swissfan91 [Swissfan91@5e0ad068.bb.sky.com] has quit [] 16:50:40 *** Swissfan91 [Swissfan91@5e0ad068.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 16:51:46 <Swissfan91> hello everyone 16:52:02 <Terkhen> hi Swissfan91 16:52:29 <Swissfan91> how's your day going? 16:52:44 <Terkhen> can't complain :) 16:52:51 <V453000> neither :) 16:53:05 <Swissfan91> good 16:53:20 *** DDR [~DDR@d142-179-78-88.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 16:53:30 <Swissfan91> I'm finally getting around to some of the crazy projects I make threads about 16:53:33 <Eddi|zuHause> if you have nothing to complain about, you are dead. 16:53:52 *** Mks [~mks@c83-176-234-98.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:54:05 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-178-004-177-245.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 16:54:31 <Terkhen> if I were dead, I'm pretty sure I would have a lot of things to complain about 16:54:50 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 16:55:09 <Swissfan91> good to see this sort of conversation follows me in xD 16:55:43 <Terkhen> :P 16:56:47 *** Mks [~mks@c83-176-234-98.cust.tele2.se] has joined #openttd 16:57:18 <Elukka> um. which direction should locomotives point in on the templates? 16:57:20 <Elukka> left or right 16:57:28 <Swissfan91> man, I wish I could draw for OTTD 16:57:45 <Elukka> hey i can't either but i'm pooping some pixels and hoping something decent comes out 16:58:02 <Swissfan91> what're you drawing? 16:58:22 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: in the first sprite, the top is the front and the bottom the back. the rest follows from there 16:58:29 <Elukka> alright 17:01:43 <Elukka> swissfan91, trying to draw this: http://www.gscalecentral.co.uk/f/download.axd?file=4;84709&where=msg 17:03:42 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 17:06:24 <Swissfan91> Elukka: I see, what set is that for? 17:06:28 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd 17:06:59 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f656c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 17:08:47 <Elukka> CETS.. hopefully, if i can make anything up to decent standards :D 17:10:13 <Swissfan91> oh right, thats great. I'd love to see that set happen. 17:10:14 <Swissfan91> Good luck. 17:10:18 <z-MaTRiX> fnx="./test.txt";newfs=`dd if="$fnx" bs=64k skip=0 2>/dev/null | gzip -9 | dd bs=64k seek=0 conv=notrunc of="$fnx" 2>&1 | grep "bytes.*copied" | sed -re 's;^([0-9][0-9]*) .*;;Ig'`;dd if=/dev/null bs=1 count=0 seek="$newfs" of="$fnx" 2>/dev/null;mv "$fnx" "$fnx.gz" 17:12:37 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-78-102-233-190.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:13:11 <z-MaTRiX> gzip-in-place for fun <; 17:14:20 <Eddi|zuHause> 2>&1 sounds like a dangerous thing to do in a pipe 17:14:58 <z-MaTRiX> hm, that should redirect stderr to stdout 17:15:08 <z-MaTRiX> so į can grep it 17:19:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure there are ways to directly grep stderr 17:19:50 <__ln__> z-MaTRiX: english only 17:20:28 <z-MaTRiX> __ln__<< where do you see other? 17:20:46 <__ln__> z-MaTRiX: 'į' is not an english word 17:21:16 <Elukka> interesting 17:21:23 <Elukka> sprite drawing is infectious 17:21:32 <Elukka> i mentioned it on an unrelated channel and now this guy is drawing ICEs 17:22:59 <Eddi|zuHause> ICEs are the trickiest part of the set... i have no clue how to do them properly 17:23:30 <Eddi|zuHause> we need vehicles that are both articulated and dualheaded 17:24:08 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.189] has quit [] 17:25:41 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 17:25:42 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 17:25:54 <Swissfan91> if only we had keen drawers at the Swiss set :P 17:26:31 <V453000> if only we had more drawers at the NUTS set :P 17:26:46 <pjpe> if only that guy on 2cc would come back from the dead 17:26:52 <Swissfan91> if only we had more drawers :P 17:26:54 <Eddi|zuHause> if only we had more nuts at the drawerset 17:27:21 <V453000> :d 17:27:23 <Elukka> i'm happy if i can be useful :P 17:28:10 <Swissfan91> its annoying in some respects that we have so many train sets about Europe, and they cannot be merged into two. A European Livery set, and a European CC set 17:28:28 <Swissfan91> i know people enjoy having one about their respective country (Dutch, DB set etc) 17:28:32 <Terkhen> you have the 2cc train set :P 17:29:33 <Swissfan91> indeed, which is a very good set 17:30:01 <Elukka> hmm... i guess nobody will count individual windows :P 17:30:10 <Elukka> umwauwagen have 7, but the sprite looks more like the real thing with 6 17:30:19 <Eddi|zuHause> err... i'm sure they do :p 17:31:01 <V453000> it isnt too easy to add/take away a window on the few pixel space you have :) 17:31:18 <Elukka> yeah 17:31:58 <Elukka> not mine, but the guy i mentioned is doing his first sprite work too 17:31:59 <Elukka> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3590931/badiceisbad.png 17:33:50 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-78-102-233-190.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 17:34:10 <Elukka> hm. i suppose curved roofs should have some shading 17:34:39 <Elukka> which direction does the sun shine from in ttd world again? 17:35:50 <Eddi|zuHause> ask andy, he has done some research on it 17:36:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i think it's from the lower right, at a high angle 17:36:24 <Elukka> alright 17:38:07 <V453000> I have that feeling, too 17:40:31 <z-MaTRiX> Eddi|zuHause<< im not so sure, standard unix tools take standard input as default 17:41:03 <Eddi|zuHause> z-MaTRiX: you have named pipes and stuff, you can do all sorts of funny plummery 17:41:30 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 17:41:32 <z-MaTRiX> you mean using a fifo file? 17:41:53 <z-MaTRiX> redirecting stderr seemed straight forward 17:42:26 <Elukka> okay i guess the windows should be darker than the car body 17:42:39 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host26-234-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 17:42:55 <Wolf01> hello 17:43:43 <z-MaTRiX> hey 17:45:35 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22900 /trunk/src/lang/ (dutch.txt esperanto.txt german.txt romanian.txt): 17:45:35 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:45:35 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: dutch - 1 changes by Yexo 17:45:35 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: esperanto - 9 changes by Ailanto 17:45:35 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by planetmaker 17:45:36 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: romanian - 1 changes by kkmic 17:46:33 <Elukka> hey, eddi, what about variants like first class and dining cars? 17:46:43 <Elukka> they are pretty nice in dbset but i have no idea if cets is planning to do that sort of thing 17:49:52 <z-MaTRiX> howcome crc32 sum util is not included in coreutils? 17:50:21 <z-MaTRiX> it is old, and ca nbe faked, but still in use... 17:50:43 <sortkrudt> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBSsqiytCI8 17:50:45 <sortkrudt> oups. sry 17:51:37 <Elukka> contrast is kinda hard to manage... since the wagon itself is all so medium greyish green 17:52:37 <frosch123> z-MaTRiX: everyone uses md5 today for checking corruption 17:52:53 <frosch123> or sha-(various numbers) 17:53:02 <z-MaTRiX> btw my preference is sha512sum 17:53:17 <z-MaTRiX> but totalcmd splits files and checksums crc32 17:53:37 <Elukka> http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Art%20and%20stuff/umbauwagen.png 17:53:42 <z-MaTRiX> also it is in zlib 17:53:43 <Elukka> first shot! kinda hard to see :D 17:53:47 <Elukka> if anyone has any suggestions, shoot 17:54:03 <Elukka> i used colors from the livery template 17:57:17 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: the passenger wagon proposal is here: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2884 17:57:38 <Elukka> ooh 17:58:24 <Elukka> this is basically a modernish (60s-80s) wagon but the length is only 13 meters as it was rebuilt out of ancient coaches 17:58:31 <Elukka> so i used the closest template 17:58:46 <Elukka> it was quite prolific in germany i understand 17:59:58 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 18:00:13 <Elukka> so you don't really have short and long coaches separately? 18:00:42 *** Hyronymus [~chatzilla@s53757898.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd 18:05:14 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: naturally the wagons get longer over time, as that was their real development 18:05:40 <Elukka> i see 18:05:49 <Elukka> germany is a bit of a special case as they had short wagons up to the 80s 18:06:13 <Eddi|zuHause> just if a wagon is twice as long, it gets twice the capacity 18:06:27 *** Masa [~Marcel@p54B1D4F4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 18:06:35 <Masa> hey guys 18:06:37 <Eddi|zuHause> the capacity-to-size ratio doesn't get larger over time 18:06:39 <Elukka> alongside longer coaches of course 18:06:42 <Elukka> yeah that makes sense 18:07:00 <Masa> great game, love the visuals and audio ... but .. FCKING DO SOMETHING ABOUT PLACING RAILWAYS 18:07:09 <Masa> its so broken and rage inducing i cant even 18:07:21 <pjpe> that's uh 18:07:22 <pjpe> great 18:07:29 <Eddi|zuHause> great introduction. 18:07:35 <pjpe> we 18:07:39 <pjpe> we'll look in to that 18:08:12 <Masa> seriously i put tracks and when im close to getting where i want .. RED RAIL 18:08:25 <Elukka> huh? 18:09:12 <Masa> somehow placing tracks can modify terrain it itself and then i get "land facing in wrong direction" or some bs when i attempt to connect the two ends of my track 18:09:54 <Eddi|zuHause> so then move the terrain? 18:10:08 <Masa> anyway, games great just saying that its a major upset for me coming to this. i am trying to enjoy it but this is just bad first user experience 18:10:27 <Alberth> thank you so much for sharing 18:11:02 <Masa> no problem, i will feel better until i try building railways again 18:11:48 <frosch123> just start an ai, and it will build the rails 18:12:02 <Terkhen> create a flat scenario and play on it :) 18:12:40 <Masa> also, one more thing 18:13:18 <Masa> after i buy a train in a depot, i expect to be able to find that train again when i click the depot, but it just disappears from the list 18:13:19 <Elukka> i think your problem might be you're trying to build diagonal tracks on slopes 18:13:20 <Elukka> you can't do that 18:13:44 <Masa> the consequence is, theres also no way to delete the train and destroy the depot in case you place the depot the wrong way 18:13:58 <pjpe> sure you can 18:14:04 <frosch123> you have very interesting problems :) 18:14:06 <Masa> at least i could not figure out to sell the train from the vehicle list 18:14:07 <pjpe> you can sell trains when they're stopped in depots 18:14:20 <Masa> nope, it asks me to pull the train from the list into the icon 18:14:26 <Masa> but the train is not in the list 18:14:32 <pjpe> in the depot list? 18:14:37 <pjpe> tell it to turn around and head for the depot 18:14:39 <Masa> yep, its not there 18:14:46 <Alberth> train is not stopped? 18:14:57 <Masa> the train could not even leave the depot because the depot was facing the wrong way -.- 18:15:01 <Terkhen> order the train to go back to the depot 18:15:13 <Terkhen> and trains don't go outside depots on their own, you have to order them to start 18:15:23 <Terkhen> I have to go, see you tomorrow :) 18:15:28 <Masa> bye 18:15:28 <Alberth> bye Terkhen 18:16:07 <Alberth> Masa: stopped is not the same as not being able to leave the depot 18:16:14 <Masa> from my point of view the train should always be in the depot list, but whatever. i ll try it again 18:16:31 <Elukka> the train is always in the depot list if it is in the depot 18:16:36 <Elukka> even if it's only partially in 18:17:12 <Masa> well i guess it makes sense if you have a whole network with several depots 18:17:29 <Elukka> um, yeah, it's of course only in the list of the particular depot the train is in 18:17:29 <Masa> but if you only have one railway and one depot i kinda expected it to always show there you know 18:18:07 <Alberth> it is always in the list of trains 18:22:22 <z-MaTRiX> is this a bug in ls ? 18:22:31 <z-MaTRiX> $ ls -l 40g.img.gz 18:22:31 <z-MaTRiX> ls: unrecognized prefix: rs 18:22:45 <z-MaTRiX> ls: unparsable value for LS_COLORS environment variable 18:22:45 <z-MaTRiX> ls: 40g.img.gz: Value too large for defined data type 18:25:16 <Alberth> sounds like messedup LS_COLORS env var 18:25:47 <Alberth> ls -l --color=none 40g.img.gz 18:25:49 <Masa> by the way, should i include the depot in my bus route ? 18:25:51 <z-MaTRiX> it displays all other files in dir, but skips that one... 18:26:14 <Alberth> also other .gz files? 18:26:49 <z-MaTRiX> yes 18:30:04 <z-MaTRiX> but if the "40g.img.gz" file is 0 bytes, the value too large error disappears 18:31:00 *** Masa [~Marcel@p54B1D4F4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 18:32:15 <z-MaTRiX> something is not cool here, maybe system needs runlevel 6 18:32:50 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22901 /trunk/src/genworld_gui.cpp: -Fix (r22767): The river density dropdown was missing in the 'play heightmap' window. 18:33:02 <Alberth> I am afraid you have to dig in the env var string to figure out what is wrong 18:33:37 <z-MaTRiX> just recently wrote some long script that killed the terminal 18:33:49 <z-MaTRiX> maybe that did something ;/ 18:34:21 <z-MaTRiX> though it was in another terminal recently closed... 18:37:49 <Alberth> kill $$ ? :) 18:38:02 <Alberth> (iirc) 18:38:37 <z-MaTRiX> no, assumed there was some reserved variable name in it, and mc got killed after script run 18:39:44 <Elukka> hmm drawing the diagonals is where it gets hard 18:40:00 <z-MaTRiX> and some typos 18:40:18 <z-MaTRiX> '`() 18:40:20 *** Westie [~westie@icarus.typefish.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:42:44 *** Westie [~westie@icarus.typefish.co.uk] has joined #openttd 18:51:49 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 18:57:28 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 19:00:42 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:02:44 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 19:17:56 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 19:21:07 *** Westie [~westie@icarus.typefish.co.uk] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 19:25:48 *** zachanima [~zach@0x52b41806.static.bcbnet.dk] has joined #openttd 19:33:54 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 19:36:50 <sortkrudt> ok. totally irrelevant question but! favourite beer? 19:39:02 <V453000> Pilsner Urquell 19:39:10 <V453000> . 19:39:10 <XeryusTC> La Chouffe 19:39:55 <SmatZ> Pilsner Urquell ftw :) 19:40:12 <V453000> hell yeah 19:40:19 <V453000> hi SmatZ btw :p still alive? 19:40:20 <Eddi|zuHause> not that big on beer myself 19:40:30 <SmatZ> hello V453000 :) 19:40:35 <XeryusTC> pilsner != beer! 19:40:41 <Eddi|zuHause> most of the time Köstritzer 19:42:01 <sortkrudt> urqueell. is that from ur country? havent' seen it, but dont like ÃŒberbitter beer. 19:42:09 <sortkrudt> I love killkenny/guiness and dark, dark beer 19:42:37 <Eddi|zuHause> Pilsner Urquell is from Pilsen, obviously 19:42:56 <frosch123> and obviously the origin of every "pils" 19:43:21 <sortkrudt> köstritzer is awesome german beer. i have to say. dont have it in norway tho 19:43:31 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-27-32-4.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 19:43:46 <XeryusTC> oh, there is always Hertog Jan Grand Prestige btw 19:44:08 <sortkrudt> i like local brewereries. 19:44:12 <XeryusTC> one huge kick to the head but so damn tasty 19:44:18 <sortkrudt> killkenny is awesome 19:44:19 <frosch123> haha, when i was in norway everyone drank warsteiner... some beer which i cannot remember to have seen being drunk in germany :p 19:44:19 <Eddi|zuHause> XeryusTC: do all your beers have such weird names? := 19:45:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i've only ever seen Warsteiner in commercial spots... never seen it anywhere 19:45:45 <XeryusTC> i have seen 50+ empty warsteiner cases next to 50+ empty heineken cases at a lan party once :P 19:46:01 <XeryusTC> actually, they were build into one giant pyramid :D 19:46:02 <sortkrudt> beer is somewhat luxuary in norway. about 5 euro per beer-can 19:46:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't seen beer cans in ages 19:46:27 <sortkrudt> maybe 3 euro for cheap ones. or 2,5 for the crappy ones 19:46:38 <sortkrudt> well. beer in can is OK if its lager. better in can 19:46:47 <XeryusTC> cheepest you can get here is like 30 cent/can 19:47:07 <Eddi|zuHause> 20x0,5l cost around 10-15⬠here 19:47:13 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 19:47:20 <frosch123> yeah, we were told norwegians would be upset, if we woudl bring a present with < 60% 19:47:39 <Eddi|zuHause> so you brought Stroh 80? :) 19:47:42 <sortkrudt> yes. above 60% is defined as drugs in norway 19:47:49 <XeryusTC> i was about to mention Stroh xD 19:48:20 <frosch123> stroh is mainly known for "Warum liegt hier Stroh rum?" :p 19:48:28 <XeryusTC> i have this bottle of Captain Morgan Original sitting next to me :o 19:48:42 <sortkrudt> captain morgan. known. 19:48:54 <V453000> stroh is undrinkable :D 19:49:12 <V453000> at least the 80% one 19:49:16 <sortkrudt> many people from germany here? 19:49:24 <Eddi|zuHause> quite 19:49:34 <Eddi|zuHause> ~30% i guess 19:49:39 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 19:49:46 <sortkrudt> i have a girlfriend from germany 19:49:55 <sortkrudt> tahts my only relation 19:49:57 <sortkrudt> he he 19:50:03 <Eddi|zuHause> pics or it didn't happen! 19:50:10 <sortkrudt> lulz! 19:50:20 <XeryusTC> i had german i high school 19:50:23 <frosch123> yeah, "in germany" would have meant something different :p 19:50:43 <XeryusTC> how's that for a connection :P 19:50:52 <sortkrudt> nice connection 19:50:54 <XeryusTC> german being forced upon you, again 19:50:56 <sortkrudt> she's a lovely girl. 19:50:59 <sortkrudt> yea. again -_- 19:51:02 <sortkrudt> those ze germans! 19:51:03 <__ln__> sortkrudt: does she know you? 19:51:26 <sortkrudt> http://cdn.pimpmyspace.org/media/pms/c/kq/dx/wb/ters_81_34.jpg 19:51:35 <sortkrudt> lolz. know me! lolz 19:52:12 <frosch123> hmm, that's the second time in a few days that image is linked here :p 19:52:21 <sortkrudt> yea. and I'm all responsible 19:52:35 <sortkrudt> once they were known for their sense of humour! 19:52:36 <frosch123> you posted it also the other times? 19:52:48 *** Westie [~westie@icarus.typefish.co.uk] has joined #openttd 19:52:50 <sortkrudt> yesterday 19:52:52 <sortkrudt> yea. hehe 19:54:52 <Eddi|zuHause> http://www.southpark.de/alleEpisoden/1502/?autoplay=false 19:55:34 <__ln__> unfair, we have only episodes up to season 13 20:02:32 <frosch123> damn the "german jokes" are easier to understand when reading the english subtext :p 20:03:32 <sortkrudt> hehe 20:03:33 <sortkrudt> mhm 20:09:44 *** Bjarni [~Bjarni@0x573c4281.espnqu1.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd 20:09:47 *** mode/#openttd [+o Bjarni] by ChanServ 20:10:57 <__ln__> @seen Bjarni 20:10:57 <DorpsGek> __ln__: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 23 weeks, 1 day, 20 hours, 48 minutes, and 54 seconds ago: <Bjarni> thanks 20:11:03 <__ln__> Bjarni! 20:11:49 <Bjarni> O_O 20:11:56 <Bjarni> 23 weeks 20:11:59 <Bjarni> can't be right 20:12:08 <sortkrudt> any funny german saying i can say to my girlfirend aus deautchland? 20:12:14 <sortkrudt> (she is on skype) 20:12:38 <__ln__> sortkrudt: "Wenn ist das NunstÃŒck git und Slotermeyer? Ja!" 20:12:59 *** JVassie [~James@2.27.99.14] has joined #openttd 20:13:07 <sortkrudt> what does 'knÃŒllbar' means? 20:13:34 <sortkrudt> in norwegian it means: "fuckable". 20:14:37 <sortkrudt> du mich auch scherzkeks 20:14:56 <__ln__> Bjarni: bots don't lie. (on the other hand, DorpsGek doesn't "see" people when they visit the channel but don't talk) 20:15:10 <hanf> I guess this channel is some kind of german love-in 20:15:39 <Bjarni> why all this German loving? 20:15:54 <sortkrudt> cause we love the motherland! 20:15:55 * Bjarni got a phonecall from Germany today 20:16:02 <sortkrudt> nein. ze vaterland! 20:17:54 <__ln__> Bjarni: what did germany want from you? 20:19:01 <Bjarni> they told me it's ok to come back xD 20:19:06 <hanf> I quite enjoy some german bands, that's about it I think. the language is rather nice too! 20:19:07 <hanf> lol 20:20:49 *** LordAro [56890f09@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 20:21:07 <LordAro> oh! Bjarni :) 20:23:29 <LordAro> planetmaker: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=968970#p968970 <-- was mostly a joke, you know ;) 20:25:07 <Swissfan91> is anyone on here a dab hand with MS Visio? 20:26:47 *** perk11 [~perk11@188.255.47.217] has joined #openttd 20:30:45 <Elukka> Eddi|zuHaus: what's up with the three sprites in between the two rows here: https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/1801/p8_front_5lu.png 20:30:56 <Elukka> want to make sure i'm not missing anything 20:33:41 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4d08ed04.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 20:34:05 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22902 /trunk/src/genworld_gui.cpp: -Fix: The name of the heightmap glitches in the 'play heightmap' window. 20:41:20 *** jpx_ [jpx_@a91-156-244-221.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:42:59 <Bjarni> bahh.... my log is too big. It's still not done opening the document 20:43:23 <__ln__> Master Bjarni, what's up? 20:43:43 <Bjarni> I wondered when I last showed up in the channel 20:44:04 <Bjarni> meaning the application have been trying to open the txt file for like 20 minutes now 20:44:18 <Bjarni> it starts like this 20:44:18 <Bjarni> Mar 25 14:14:12 --- Topic for #openttd is All hail Ludde, our King | http://svn.openttd.com | All hail Wiggo, our bitch 20:44:18 <Bjarni> Mar 25 14:14:12 --- Topic for #openttd set by wiggo at Wed Mar 17 23:58:48 20:44:42 <Bjarni> that is 2004 20:45:58 <frosch123> did you switch to windows? 20:46:07 <frosch123> or is there no 'tail' on osx? :p 20:46:18 <Bjarni> just did use tail 20:46:38 <Bjarni> and got what I wanted within seconds 20:46:52 <Bjarni> as usual, using anything with a GUI is slower 20:47:02 <Bjarni> and in fact I was here in July 20:47:56 *** perk11 [~perk11@188.255.47.217] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 20:49:11 <__ln__> Bjarni: but didn't say nothing? 20:49:25 <Bjarni> I didn't check 20:49:37 <Bjarni> most likely I said something 20:49:47 <Bjarni> but it's possible it was just PMs 20:50:38 <Bjarni> it takes 26 seconds to cat my log file 20:50:45 <Bjarni> and display everything in the terminal 20:51:07 <frosch123> how long does it take for you to read it? 20:51:18 <frosch123> can you please measure that 20:52:56 <Bjarni> what is the command for word count and linecount? 20:53:07 <frosch123> wc 20:53:14 <frosch123> like toilet 20:55:42 <Bjarni> $ wc openTTD-#openttd.txt 20:55:42 <Bjarni> 1292188 14439294 88676336 openTTD-#openttd.txt 20:55:46 <Bjarni> could take a while to read 20:56:11 <LordAro> lol 20:57:06 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:59:08 <Elukka> hmmm 20:59:22 <Elukka> sunlight doesn't shine from the upper left in openttd, it's from the upper right 20:59:59 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:00:12 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #openttd 21:00:12 <frosch123> the direction of sunlight in openttd is as consistent as the direction of wind 21:00:26 <Elukka> ha 21:00:40 <Elukka> if i was really, really lazy i'd just mirror my sprites 21:00:45 <Bjarni> wow 21:00:58 <Bjarni> that logfile is the size of 30,5 lord of the rings 21:01:05 <Bjarni> based on wordcount 21:01:18 *** LordAro [56890f09@ircip3.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 21:01:42 <Bjarni> meaning I can read the 3 books and multiply the time by 30 and then I have an estimate of how long it takes to read the log 21:02:01 <__ln__> a lot of it is joins and parts 21:02:36 <Bjarni> there is a lot of joining and parting in LotR too 21:02:46 <Bjarni> joining in Fellowship of the Ring 21:03:01 <__ln__> true 21:04:19 <Elukka> i bet now i can't unsee that sunlight direction isn't consistent 21:05:42 <Bjarni> Elukka: did you see the Mythbusters episode about the moon landing? 21:05:52 <Elukka> yup! 21:05:56 <Elukka> been a while though 21:06:16 <Bjarni> did you understand why the shadows didn't go in the same direction? 21:07:35 <Bjarni> they gave an explanation which should be good enough to show that light can come from more than one angle based on just a single light source 21:07:36 <Elukka> ground elevation? 21:07:52 <glx> because they never landed on the moon 21:07:56 <Bjarni> but.... in reality they didn't show anything 21:08:13 <Bjarni> basically they didn't explain why it was like that, just "it is" 21:08:30 <Elukka> on earth there's a whole lot of ambient light due to the atmosphere, but the side of an object facing the sun is still brighter 21:08:36 <Bjarni> and the camera was placed so people couldn't tell if they added extra light or not to do the recording 21:08:45 <Bjarni> meaning they didn't proved anything 21:09:08 <Elukka> so, openttd ligthing is a conspiracy 21:09:18 <Bjarni> YES! 21:09:19 *** TWerkhoven[l] [~turbulent@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 21:09:21 <Bjarni> now you get it 21:09:24 <Elukka> D: 21:09:37 <Elukka> (we're not seriously believing the moon landings were faked though, right) 21:10:05 <Bjarni> eventually you will learn that all that stuff about Columbus finding new land is faked too 21:10:37 <frosch123> imo most impressive about sunlight is the direction in which it arrives 21:11:15 <Bjarni> Elukka: how could they possibly not be. The Eagle lands and launches again.... they reconnect to that other vehicle in space 21:11:16 <frosch123> if you have a usual human made small light source, the shadow is always bigger than the original object 21:11:25 <frosch123> for the sun it is the other way around 21:11:33 <Elukka> america doesn't actually exist, those military forces everywhere actaully originate from interdimensional portals 21:11:36 <Elukka> *actually 21:12:03 <Bjarni> reconnect..... the Russians nearly lost Mir when they attempted to connect based on technology the US claimed to have used on Apollo 11 21:12:15 <Elukka> yeah the sun is so far away the rays are effectively parallel 21:12:18 *** zachanim1 [~zach@0x52b41806.static.bcbnet.dk] has joined #openttd 21:12:21 <Bjarni> turned out that all simulations the Russians did ended up in failure 21:12:29 <Bjarni> and they concluded it couldn't be done 21:12:34 <Elukka> what 21:12:42 <Elukka> okay, irony is hard to detect 21:13:21 <Bjarni> it's not possible to connect two objects in space without crashing them too fast into each other unless you use advanced technology to help you 21:13:30 <Bjarni> such as laser range detection 21:13:35 <frosch123> Elukka: i mean: the sun is bigger than every other object you see, so the light encloses small objects, so they do not cast a shadow anymore 21:13:39 <Bjarni> Apollo 11 didn't use such stuff 21:13:39 <Elukka> you are kidding right 21:13:49 <Bjarni> no 21:14:07 <Elukka> if you really had to you could eye the docking with no instruments 21:14:12 <Elukka> it probably wouldn't succeed but it's possible 21:14:54 <Elukka> first you plan your trajectory so that you end up on the same orbit as the object you're docking to... then when you're close, you can mostly forget about trajectories and just fly 21:15:44 <Bjarni> and then you either use all your fuel to make corrections or you come in too fast 21:15:56 <Elukka> you can't come in too fast if you're on the same orbit 21:16:09 <Elukka> the orbital velocity around an object at a certain altitude is a constnat 21:16:10 <Bjarni> because the human eye can't tell distance in space... at least not good enough for this task 21:16:10 <Elukka> constant 21:16:15 <glx> maybe they had help from aliens 21:16:25 <glx> they have stargate anyway 21:16:36 <Elukka> both the soviets and americans managed in-space docking of two spacecraft in the 1960's 21:17:03 <Elukka> i don't think it's ever actually been eyeballed... but it doesn't need particularly advanced technology 21:17:06 <glx> soon the ISS will be lost 21:17:28 <__ln__> Bjarni: we are not talking about mere humans, but astronauts 21:17:37 <Elukka> but it had its risks. all the docking required for the apollo mission architecture was considered a downside 21:17:59 <George> how many times does CB 26 happen, while 1 animation frame is displayed? 21:18:28 <Elukka> there's nothing magical about docking that would have made it impossible in the 60's 21:18:37 *** zachanima [~zach@0x52b41806.static.bcbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:18:47 <frosch123> George: do you mean cb 27? 21:19:12 <George> no. CB26 21:19:25 <__ln__> Bjarni: what about the other arguments that Savage and Hyneman presented? 21:19:29 <frosch123> hmm, what does cb26 have to do with frames? 21:19:30 <Elukka> before apollo, there was gemini, which were missions designed to practice orbital rendezvous and docking in preparation for apollo 21:19:36 <Elukka> there were also test flights of apollo on low earth orbit 21:20:32 <Elukka> incidentally, apollo spacecraft also docked with soviet soyuz spacecraft 21:20:44 <Bjarni> <__ln__> Bjarni: what about the other arguments that Savage and Hyneman presented? <-- I can't remember those :p 21:20:55 <Bjarni> it has been ages since I saw that show 21:21:25 <frosch123> George: i mean, cb 26 decides which frame to pick, so if you change the frame on every cb, then it is called once per frame? or what? 21:21:31 <Elukka> if apollo was somehow faked, the soviets would have been the first to reveal it 21:21:37 <__ln__> Bjarni: one of those was the retroreflector 21:21:41 <Bjarni> btw the DVB-T TV broadcaster here has problems.... too few customers 21:21:50 <Bjarni> they made all channels free for a while 21:22:11 <Bjarni> and then I saw that they broadcast channels in as low as 1 Mbit/s 21:22:14 <Elukka> there's also the funny thing that the soviets, among others, tracked apollo 21:22:18 <Bjarni> that's not really good 21:22:22 <Elukka> they watched it 21:22:25 <Elukka> it did what it did 21:22:45 <__ln__> indeed, the soviets' watch was another argument 21:22:54 <Elukka> the low orbit test flights before apollo... you could probably have seen those with the naked eye 21:23:11 <Elukka> i've personally seen a japanese upper stage fly 600 km over my house one night 21:23:17 <frosch123> George: the calls to cb 26 are only defined by property 10 resp. cb 27 21:23:18 <Bjarni> <Elukka> there's also the funny thing that the soviets, among others, tracked apollo <-- The Apollo missions were cancelled once the Russians invented a way to track and hence follow the rockets all the way to the moon 21:23:33 <sortkrudt> I think the early hebrew calculated the distance to the moon with 9% failure with their nakes eyes. not bad. 21:23:35 <Elukka> there was no special way to track them 21:23:37 <George> I intended once, but the way, my code works, makes me think that it happens several times 21:23:41 <Elukka> they could have tracked them with ww2 technology 21:23:42 <sortkrudt> 3k years ago 21:23:43 <Bjarni> to begin with the Russians were unable to see such a small object near the moon 21:23:44 <Elukka> it wasn't invented then 21:23:53 <George> I'll make more tests tomorrow 21:24:16 <Elukka> do you still think docking was impossible then? 21:24:50 <Bjarni> <sortkrudt> I think the early hebrew calculated the distance to the moon with 9% failure with their nakes eyes. not bad. <--- the Indians figured out the Earth is round around 1500 years ago and calculated the diameter within 1% or something like that.... not bad either 21:25:32 <glx> but at that time it wasn't round yet 21:25:36 <Elukka> honestly, if you have any idea how orbits function, you would understand how a rendezvous is possible 21:25:45 <sortkrudt> No, thats true. even tho catholism shouldnt represent christian nescessarly. 21:25:58 <Elukka> nah, the ancient greeks knew earth was round 21:26:03 <Elukka> knew its size pretty accurately too 21:26:23 <sortkrudt> europe have allways been attached to 'politically correctness'. which kills science and philosophy. 21:26:33 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f656c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:26:42 <glx> and everybody knows the sun turns around the earth 21:26:43 <Bjarni> <Elukka> honestly, if you have any idea how orbits function <-- I do and I understand how objects can move at the same speed in orbit.... however when they dock they do NOT move at the same speed 21:27:02 <Elukka> yeah but at the time scales and velocities involved it doesn't matter that much 21:27:18 <George> frosch123: I made the code, that changes idustry registers instead of changing graphics, and then make graphics depending on register, not animation frame (this way I have more than 256 animation stages). But looks like it runs faster, than the animation with the same delay. 21:27:20 <Elukka> if you accelerate 5 m/s to reach and dock with an object, you would eventually end up at a very slightly different orbit 21:27:26 <Elukka> but on a timescale of minutes, not really 21:27:49 <Elukka> do you think the soviets faked their dockings too? 21:28:00 <sortkrudt> its awesome how to calculate the earth size within 1% margine with nakes eyes. dont understand how they do that. 21:28:00 <Bjarni> sounds good..... 5 m/s with 80 km to go 21:28:02 <George> But maybe I'm too tired and mistaken 21:28:15 <Elukka> why would you have 80 km to go 21:28:18 <Bjarni> and how do you know it's 5 m/s and not -5 m/s? 21:28:39 <Elukka> you put it on an orbit close to the object you wish to dock to 21:28:41 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-78-102-233-190.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:28:48 <Elukka> well, if the docking target is behind you then it's -5m/s 21:29:01 <Elukka> first unmanned soviet docking... 1967 21:29:04 <Bjarni> I think you missed my point 21:29:10 <Elukka> first manned soviet docking 1969 21:29:38 <Bjarni> the two objects are really far from each other... possibly hundreds of km 21:29:49 <Bjarni> they close in on each other at really high speed 21:29:59 <Elukka> no, they don't 21:30:05 <Elukka> they close in at a very small relative velocity 21:30:23 <Elukka> you also launch so that when the craft that attempts to dock with the other craft reaches orbit, it's already close to it 21:31:29 <Elukka> if you wanted to, you could download orbiter sim and perform an apollo rendezvous with the same instruments that were used in real life :P 21:31:35 <Bjarni> orbit is not like a lane on a road... it's not just "let's use this one". Moving into the very same orbit like you talk about is quite hard 21:31:51 <Elukka> yeah, it's not trivial 21:31:52 *** Hyronymus [~chatzilla@s53757898.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:31:58 <Elukka> rendezvous to within docking distance took some trial and error 21:32:07 <Elukka> "In 1962 and again 1963, the Soviet Union launched pairs of spacecraft simultaneously, Vostok 3 and 4 and Vostok 5 and 6. In both cases, the launch rockets' guidance systems inserted the two craft into nearly identical orbits; however the precision of such a system was not nearly enough to achieve true rendezvous." 21:32:21 <Elukka> subsequently, techniques were developed enough so that docking was possible 21:32:53 <Bjarni> simulators are just that: simulators. I once drove 50 km in MSTS with 40 wagons without adding water or coal to the locomotive. A simulator proves nothing 21:33:07 <Elukka> do you think the ISS is also impossible? modern spacecraft with the possible exception of the shuttle have no more maneuvering fuel than apollo 21:33:21 <Elukka> yet they dock with it all the time 21:33:30 <__ln__> i once (no, twice, thrice) drove 1 km/h over the speed limit in MSTS, and derailed. 21:33:47 <Bjarni> modern spacecraft use laser to tell the distance and difference in speed and calculate how to handle the engines based on that 21:34:49 <Bjarni> <__ln__> i once (no, twice, thrice) drove 1 km/h over the speed limit in MSTS, and derailed. <--- I once drove 135 km/h on a 75 km/h track without derailing. MSTS can be somewhat odd 21:34:58 <Elukka> i believe soyuz still uses radar 21:35:09 <Bjarni> that's possible 21:35:20 <Elukka> if you had a spare million or so you could buy a ticket to go up on one and see how it's done 21:35:23 <Bjarni> but the principle is the same 21:35:37 <Elukka> do you suppose apollo didn't have radar technology? 21:35:45 <Bjarni> it doesn't matter how it's done today when it wasn't done like that back then 21:36:01 <Elukka> actually it was done pretty much the same :P 21:36:28 <Swissfan91> does anyone use Paint.net for sprites ? 21:36:30 <Bjarni> this is getting us nowhere 21:37:05 <Bjarni> (just like 60'ties rocket technology) 21:37:15 <Elukka> apollo had a radar transponder... this was common technology in the 60's 21:37:59 <Elukka> lasers are not needed and are still not commonly used on docking 21:38:36 <Bjarni> here is the thing. It was the cold war. Russia had Sputnik and the Americans were scared that it would drop nuclear bombs on them. The Americans decided to place nuclear rockets on the moon because the Russians can't attack them there 21:38:42 <Bjarni> Apollo was part of this 21:38:54 <Elukka> that would make absolutely zero sense 21:39:06 <SpComb> military nuclear stuff often doesn't 21:39:13 <Bjarni> while they didn't actually go there, the Russians at the time couldn't be sure and it scared the hell out of them 21:39:15 <Elukka> it doesn't make sense in the context of nuclear war strategy 21:39:38 <Elukka> a missile originating on the moon would take a couple days to reach earth and would be comparably easy to intercept 21:39:44 <Bjarni> it makes as much sense as placing nuclear missiles under the ice of the North Pole 21:39:55 <Elukka> (that wasn't done either) 21:40:18 <Bjarni> Russia still have Typhoon subs there with like 26 missiles in each 21:40:23 <Elukka> oh yeah, subs 21:40:31 <Elukka> a missile launched from the US would, on the other hand, reach russia in hours... and it would be practically impossible to intercept all of them 21:40:38 <Elukka> you wouldn't want to place them on orbit either 21:40:57 <Bjarni> the idea wasn't to block an attack as this is really hard 21:41:10 <Bjarni> the idea is to scare the other side not to attack because both sides would lose 21:41:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni comes and the discussion gets horribly off topic. interesting causality :p 21:41:41 <Elukka> moon missiles would do nothing to that 21:41:50 <Elukka> that was the whole basis of the cold war 21:41:51 <Bjarni> if the US had missiles on the moon, then if Russia attacked America, nomatter what they did, they couldn't prevent a counterattack 21:42:03 <Elukka> both sides had enough missiles to decimate the opposition, and there was nothing either of them could do to stop it 21:42:16 <Elukka> they couldn't prevent a counterattack either way 21:42:17 *** hanf [~Klaus@cpc2-hart4-0-0-cust324.11-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:42:28 <Elukka> missiles still take hours to reach their target 21:42:36 <Elukka> counterattacks would have been launched within minutes 21:42:44 <Bjarni> I know 21:43:05 <Elukka> placing nukes on the moon would accomplish nothing 21:43:06 <Bjarni> I'm not saying this is sane when you stop and think about it, but it's what they did 21:43:26 <Elukka> some proof to support that? 21:43:50 <Eddi|zuHause> <Elukka> Eddi|zuHaus: what's up with the three sprites in between the two rows here: https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/1801/p8_front_5lu.png <-- no idea, must ask oberhÃŒmer... probably just examples/drafts... nothing the build script would recognize 21:44:02 <Elukka> alright 21:44:28 <Bjarni> sure... I sneaked in and took photos of their plans..... what do you think? :p 21:44:44 <glx> <Elukka> both sides had enough missiles to decimate the opposition, and there was nothing either of them could do to stop it <-- not only the opposition 21:45:11 <Bjarni> they could tell everybody on the planet like 5 or 10 times 21:45:17 <Bjarni> still can.... I think 21:45:26 <Bjarni> kill everybody... not sure how many times 21:45:28 <Elukka> not really 21:45:48 <Elukka> the point was to destroy the opposing nation, they couldn't really kill everyone 21:45:54 <Elukka> it would have been terrible though 21:46:20 <glx> yeah radiations are known to stay within the borders 21:46:51 <Elukka> cancer rates would be quite bad globally, but it wouldn't kill the entire population 21:47:06 <Elukka> just every survivor's life would suck 21:47:27 <Elukka> both russia and america had extremely twitchy trigger fingers, so that the doctrine of mutually assured destruction would be enforced... a few times the world came really, really close to nuclear war 21:47:49 <Elukka> like, dependent on one guy saying yes or no 21:48:42 <Eddi|zuHause> they say the closest was when the russian early warning system had a malfunction 21:48:45 <Elukka> yeah 21:49:16 <Eddi|zuHause> it measured the light over suspected starting spots, and triggered on some solar reflections 21:49:25 <Elukka> there was also a case where officers on board a soviet sub near cuba thought the war had already began, and were about to launch a nuclear torpedo at an american group 21:49:35 <Elukka> 3 of them had to agree to launch it, only one didn't 21:50:34 <Eddi|zuHause> that would probably have caused some diplomatic fallout, but not necessarily a war 21:50:48 <Elukka> yeah it wasn't as close as the incident you mentioned 21:50:57 <Elukka> would have been very risky though 21:51:38 <Elukka> hey, remember that time a couple years back when the US wanted to reheat some good old cold war tensions with russia? 21:51:56 <Elukka> they were going to build missile silos in... poland i think 21:51:58 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure what you mean 21:52:09 <Elukka> they said it was for interceptors in case a missile was launched by a 'rogue state' 21:52:18 <Elukka> but they could have launched nukes just fine 21:52:35 <Elukka> they did the same thing to russia that the soviets did to the US during the cold war, with cuba 21:52:37 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:52:46 <Elukka> eventually the US backed out of it 21:53:43 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... they didn't really... only very late after the economy crisis hit, they finally decided to cut down the budget 21:54:03 <Bjarni> At one time Russia detected an attack from America and was about to counterattack, but then the leader thought "this can't be right. Nobody would attack like that with just 4 missiles" and called off the counterattack. Turned out the satellite had spotted the rising sun as rocket engines and raised a false alarm. 21:54:41 <Elukka> it wasn't a leader, just an officer whose orders were to report it as a launch 21:54:50 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, that was what i meant above 21:54:56 <Elukka> we're all terribly lucky he didn't 21:55:09 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:55:10 <Elukka> because soviet doctrine was to launch every missile in response 21:55:19 <Elukka> in turn, american doctrine was to launch all of theirs 21:55:36 <Eddi|zuHause> it also turned out that the NATO strategy for a first strike would have been to knock out moscow first, so a few rockets would have actually been plausible 21:55:54 <Bjarni> he didn't know that :p 21:56:06 <__ln__> indeed it was just an officer, who got fired or at least transferred after the incident 21:56:11 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, but he said later that if he knew that, he would have decided otherwise 21:56:13 <Bjarni> and neither did I 21:56:48 * Bjarni wonders why Denmark joined NATO 21:57:16 <Bjarni> NATO declared Denmark to be the front line and too tricky to defend meaning in case of an attack, Denmark would be on it's own 21:57:40 <peter1138> yeah but you've got bacon 21:57:43 <appe> i was reading: 08:11 <@Bjarni> NATO declared war on Denmark 21:57:47 *** douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-83-190.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:57:51 <appe> and got brown pants. 21:58:05 <Bjarni> Denmark paid money to NATO, yet NATO refused to help funding military defenses in Denmark 21:58:18 <Bjarni> appe: LOL 21:58:23 <Eddi|zuHause> easy. just reuse the ones the germans left there :p 21:58:56 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause: those 2000+ bunkers are all placed to defend the west because the enemy is England 21:59:13 <Bjarni> Germany never defended Denmark against either Poland or Russia 21:59:56 <Eddi|zuHause> that makes sense ;) 22:00:22 *** JVassie [~James@2.27.99.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:01:26 <Elukka> got around to mostly finishing a sprite hopefully for CETS 22:02:52 <Bjarni> We now know that a Russian lady was a spy for Germany and she told that Churchill would place his military in Norway and attack Germany though Denmark. He predicted that Germany would counterattack and the frontline would be in Denmark. Germany decided to beat England to it and conquered Denmark and Norway 22:03:24 <Bjarni> and England was the enemy from their point of view, so it all makes sense 22:03:42 <Bjarni> we will never know if England would have attacked like that if Germany didn't attack 22:03:49 <Eddi|zuHause> that was probably before they entered a war with russia 22:04:08 <Bjarni> yeah 22:04:13 <Bjarni> like 3 years before 22:05:12 <__ln__> Bjarni: you should visit this channel more often than every 23 weeks and 1 days. 22:05:32 <Bjarni> Germany attacked on the 9th of April 1940 at 4:20. This means most Danes woke with German presence everywhere 22:06:18 <__ln__> Bjarni: do you have passport control at borders atm, btw? 22:06:54 <Bjarni> sure and the likes of you are likely to be rejected because you look suspicious :p 22:07:01 <Bjarni> what do you think? 22:07:17 <__ln__> yes? 22:07:23 <Bjarni> there is some checks, but not like the papers claims 22:08:26 <Bjarni> Denmark increased the number of people checking people at the borders. When the new setup is done, then there will be one customs worker on the Danish side of the border for every 20 on the Swedish side 22:08:43 <Bjarni> all that stuff about closing the boarder is nonsense 22:09:20 <peter1138> bjarni 22:09:25 <peter1138> we ought to rewrite autoreplace 22:09:42 <Bjarni> German newspaper(s) claimed it was to block German tourists from entering the country. 22:10:22 <Bjarni> however reality is new CCTV, which will trigger if stolen cars tries to leave the country and stuff like that 22:10:39 <Bjarni> and an estimated 1% of vehicles will be stopped, not everybody 22:11:04 <planetmaker> it's a violation of the schengen treaty 22:11:13 <Bjarni> no it's not 22:11:30 <planetmaker> and a huge step back in the freedom of movement 22:11:41 <Bjarni> some people claimed that for political reasons, though nobody claims it for legal reasons 22:11:57 <planetmaker> for diplomatic reasons 22:13:14 <Bjarni> it's a question of open boarders where organized burglars enters the country, steals everything and then leave. To slow that down the politicians decided to add more custom workers at the boarders to look for stolen goods 22:13:17 <__ln__> my passport was indeed checked the previous time i entered denmark! ... 22:13:26 <Bjarni> EU told Denmark to do something like that 22:13:29 <__ln__> ... maybe because i was arriving from Washington, D.C. 22:13:57 <peter1138> mine was too 22:14:09 <planetmaker> now, that's quite the truth reversed, eh, Bjarni? 22:14:13 <peter1138> maybe because it was 24 years ago 22:14:16 <Bjarni> <__ln__> ... maybe because i was arriving from Washington, D.C. <-- entering from a non-EU country is kind of out of this issue 22:14:30 <sortkrudt> open boarder wouldn't be an issue through free capitalsim. 22:14:31 <Bjarni> EU basically wants everybody to be checked when entering 22:14:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't even have a passport the last time i entered denmark 22:14:58 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe we didn't even go past the checkpoint 22:14:58 <planetmaker> ID cards are good enough 22:15:16 <sortkrudt> ID cards is reduntant. Cash should be enough. 22:15:17 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: didn't have an ID card either 22:15:29 <Eddi|zuHause> i was like 9 years ;) 22:15:31 <Bjarni> The idea is to have an EU ID card to prove that people don't have to show passport 22:15:33 <planetmaker> :-) 22:15:37 <peter1138> (actually i would've been on my parents' passports... 22:15:39 <peter1138> ) 22:15:48 <Elukka> eddi 22:15:49 <__ln__> for me, my driver's license should be enough to carry with me in denmark. 22:15:50 <Elukka> http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Art%20and%20stuff/umbauwagen-1.png 22:15:53 <Elukka> what do you think? 22:16:00 <sortkrudt> EU is more and more like a social democratic state. I'm glad norway aint in EU. 22:16:10 <Bjarni> however EU can't agree on such cards and so far the only card accepted to prove a person shouldn't show passports when entering is.... a passport :p 22:16:56 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [] 22:19:49 <Bjarni> sortkrudt: yet Norway pays money to EU and change laws to fit EU to avoid a boycott 22:20:58 <__ln__> norway and switzerland are two poor third world countries 22:21:55 <Bjarni> <sortkrudt> EU is more and more like a social democratic state <--- remove democratic and you are on to something. Elected politicians aren't allowed to speak unless they are in a group of likeminded elected in at least 7 countries 22:22:36 <Bjarni> Norway is an oil producing and exporting country... yet it's like their economy doesn't really benefit from it anymore 22:23:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: might be slightly to monotone-greyish 22:24:08 <Elukka> that can be modified 22:24:22 <Elukka> it's difficult to strike a balance between the color scheme on the template and visibility 22:24:32 <Elukka> this particular coach doesn't have particularly eye-popping colors 22:24:43 <Elukka> do you think more color, more contrast or brighter? 22:25:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: and when you look at this picture: http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/7455/98980fk262knigstein0667qg5.jpg the windows could be slightly larger and closer together 22:26:05 <Elukka> hmm 22:26:16 <Eddi|zuHause> means you can make the doors more visible 22:26:35 <Elukka> it would be possible but then they'd be significantly larger 22:26:52 <Eddi|zuHause> try 2px window 1px inbetween 22:27:15 <Elukka> i'll see how it looks 22:27:23 *** TWerkhoven[l] [~turbulent@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:27:58 <Eddi|zuHause> and in the partially-diagonal views, move the wheels slightly outwards 22:29:11 <planetmaker> http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32006R0562:EN:NOT <-- Bjarni, read the treaty yourself. Title III, Chapter I is about internal borders 22:31:11 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 22:32:19 <__ln__> gotta go zzzzz -> 22:32:52 <sortkrudt> Bjarni: sure its an oil nation, but we are not a working nation. 22:33:40 <Elukka> hmm 22:33:47 * Bjarni falis to see a violation 22:33:50 <Elukka> moving the windows closer together on the side views makes the door areas much too large 22:34:13 <Bjarni> planetmaker: what have you been told, which should be a violation? 22:34:15 <Elukka> small adjustments on the diagonals can be made though 22:34:22 <Elukka> they're already 2x2 pixels 22:35:10 <Elukka> not sure what you mean with the wheels? 22:35:50 <Bjarni> btw I encountered police both when entering and leaving Germany 22:36:10 <sortkrudt> I miss the times where you can be drunk and hunt, or drive. 22:36:11 <Bjarni> The Germans had placed two police officers, who watched who boarded the ferry 22:36:44 <Bjarni> and when going the other way the police were present with no less than 3 police cars 22:36:56 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: the wheels are too far inwards, the ends of the wagons hang in the air 22:37:08 <Elukka> oh 22:37:42 <sortkrudt> nothing is more fun than being abit tipsy and shooting clay-doves. :) 22:38:00 <Elukka> they do hang in the air for a couple meters on the real ones though 22:38:18 <Bjarni> sortkrudt: using black powder ;) 22:38:23 <sortkrudt> me too. 22:38:30 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 13300/2 22:38:30 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 6650 22:38:32 <Elukka> the outer wheels are between the first two large windows 22:38:41 <sortkrudt> I have flint, percussion and catridged filled with blackpowder. what do u have? 22:39:06 <Bjarni> sortkrudt: were you glued to the TV when they broadcasted Hurtigruten - minutt for minutt? 22:39:09 * Bjarni was 22:39:23 <sortkrudt> No, but I have watched some of it. alot of nice places. :) 22:39:54 <sortkrudt> its quite expensive to take the boat. about 2K euro or so to get the whole view from bergen to north norway 22:40:08 <Bjarni> I saw when the horses fell over and landed on a rider.... they removed that part from their homepage... now there is a gap or just front camera 22:40:20 <sortkrudt> I'm workin on two blackpowder weapons to hunt with. 22:40:56 <Eddi|zuHause> # Enten jagen macht besoffen doppelt so viel Spaà 22:41:26 <sortkrudt> but for now I got a pump-shotgun I use for hunting birds. 22:41:40 <sortkrudt> bist du aus deutschland Bjarni? 22:41:52 <Elukka> eddi: do you think i should stick with the template colors, or make it pop out more? 22:42:00 <planetmaker> English only 22:42:00 <Eddi|zuHause> (there's a pun in there, because in the song he's drunk driving, and "Ente" is a name for the Citroen 2cv) 22:42:06 <sortkrudt> sry planetmaker. 22:42:11 <Elukka> the same paint was used on a lot of rail vehicles so that would essentially mean adjusting the template 22:42:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: especially less monotone 22:42:23 <Bjarni> sortkrudt: do I look like a German to you? :p 22:42:36 <sortkrudt> wtf. i dont tell on nicks anymore :) 22:42:41 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: i haven't really checked how accurate the template colours are 22:42:47 <sortkrudt> been on irc since '96. lots of nick :) 22:42:53 <Elukka> they look alright to me 22:43:04 <Elukka> they're accurate, but i'm not sure they're ideal for the game 22:43:07 <sortkrudt> Bjarni, you have some b.powder guns? 22:43:08 <Bjarni> I have used this nick since 2004 22:43:18 <Eddi|zuHause> but really, make random pixels slightly darker and slightly lighter 22:43:26 <Elukka> hmm 22:43:30 <sortkrudt> my nick is actually 'blackpowder' in old norwegian or danish. :) 22:43:33 <Bjarni> I haven't been shooting in ages and never much 22:43:39 <Eddi|zuHause> so it's not all one monotone area 22:43:42 <Elukka> what do you think about weathering the roofs and such? 22:43:49 <Eddi|zuHause> no 22:43:59 <sortkrudt> Bjarni, well. its fun. now the hunting' season have started so :) 22:44:04 <Bjarni> <sortkrudt> my nick is actually 'blackpowder' in old norwegian or danish. :) <--- I know that.... and yet you assume me to be German.... I don't get it 22:44:06 <Eddi|zuHause> try orienting on a clean wagon :) 22:44:20 <sortkrudt> I didnt know that you knew that! DOH! :) 22:44:25 <Elukka> it's hard to make more detail than there is! 22:44:37 <Elukka> the sides and roof are flat green and flat grey respectively 22:45:07 <sortkrudt> yea, ur danish. i see :9 22:45:11 <Elukka> i suppose some very light lines on the roofs to emulate the real, thin ones... they wouldn't be visible at this scale, but it might give a better impression of the wagon 22:45:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: no, i mean just make the pixels slightly lighter or darker, that the area is less "flat" 22:45:48 <Bjarni> <Bjarni> sortkrudt: using black powder ;) <--- this could have tipped you that I might understand it 22:45:53 <Elukka> just random pixels? 22:45:58 <sortkrudt> Bjarni, if u want go for a rifle of blackpowder i suggest rolling black. very nice rifle indeed. doable for hunting. 22:46:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: look at the DBSet, hardly any 2 neighbouring pixels have the same colour 22:46:22 <Elukka> i wanted to but didn't have any dbset sprites handy :P 22:46:29 <Bjarni> sortkrudt: I have no plans for shooting anything 22:46:42 <sortkrudt> Oh. Ok. 22:46:44 <Bjarni> though trollshooting can be quite tempting 22:46:46 <sortkrudt> hunting is so nice tho. 22:47:05 <Elukka> perhaps i'll take a photo of a real wagon, shrink it to ttd size and see what color differences there are :D 22:47:33 <Bjarni> I think it's really funny in Back to the Future where Doc adds what looks like gunpowder or something to the steam locomotive and it just moves faster 22:47:43 <Bjarni> makes absolutely no technical sense whatsoever 22:48:10 * Bjarni knows what to do to a steam locomotive to make it go faster than specifications 22:48:11 <sortkrudt> the whole movie doesnt make any technical sense whatsoever. hehe 22:48:21 <Bjarni> though it's a really bad idea since it can blow up instead 22:48:57 <sortkrudt> so u dont have any bpowder weapons? 22:49:26 <Bjarni> no 22:49:34 <Bjarni> I once had a bbgun 22:49:39 <sortkrudt> Oh. okey. 22:49:42 <Bjarni> or rather, long time borrow 22:49:56 <sortkrudt> we have this law that you dont need to aply to cops if your weapon is older than 1890. which is cool. :) 22:50:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni: it's obviously something that makes the fire burn hotter. 22:50:38 <sortkrudt> i have comboweapon (shotgun 16gauge and 12,7mm) and an old weapon fro 1855. norwegian classy one. only 512 in world. 22:51:18 <Bjarni> that legalises Madsen maskinkanonen 22:51:26 <sortkrudt> yes. 22:51:32 <glx> <@Bjarni> though it's a really bad idea since it can blow up instead <-- Doc didn't care, there was no bridge anyway 22:51:34 <Bjarni> do you know that one? 22:51:49 <sortkrudt> never heard of it. 2sec ill google 22:51:55 <Bjarni> glx: blowing up before the bridge would be bad 22:52:06 <sortkrudt> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cc/20_mm_Madsen.jpg/220px-20_mm_Madsen.jpg <- 22:52:48 <sortkrudt> used during the 2th world war. still older than 1890? :) 22:53:04 <sortkrudt> well. any weapon older than 1890 is legal in norway without aplying to the cops afaik. 22:53:06 <Bjarni> hmm 22:53:09 <Bjarni> now I wonder 22:53:16 <Bjarni> was it from 1888 or 1892 22:53:51 <sortkrudt> well. norway is strict on it. even a rifle from 1891 you ahve to aply on. on of my weapons are from 1891 or so, but I say 1890 so it would be legal. hehe 22:53:57 <Wolf01> 'night 22:54:01 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host26-234-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 22:54:17 <Bjarni> the thing is this gun is quite powerful 22:54:24 <sortkrudt> DISA was made in 1900. 22:54:29 <sortkrudt> so prolly not 1880 :) 22:54:39 <sortkrudt> http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/DISA 22:54:39 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:55:03 <Bjarni> if I recall correctly, Germany lost more armoured vehicles to this gun than Denmark lost soldiers when the Germans invaded 22:55:24 <Bjarni> "Udviklingen af det luftkÞlede maskingevÊr begyndte i 1879" <-- before 1890 ;) 22:56:06 <sortkrudt> Ja. Det er sant. Uansett sÃ¥ kommer det ann pÃ¥ produksjonsdato av det aktuelle vaabenet. 22:56:14 <sortkrudt> (sry, forgot my self writing danish or smt) 22:56:30 <Bjarni> NOT Danish :P 22:56:36 <sortkrudt> close too*! lulz 22:57:14 <sortkrudt> you just have potatoes in ur throat. thats the main difference ^^ 22:57:24 <Elukka> eddi: here's some really subtle tweaks, upper row is new, lower row is old, what do you think? 22:57:26 <Elukka> http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Art%20and%20stuff/tweaks.png 22:57:59 <Bjarni> http://www.steampunk.dk/wp-content/uploads/220306.jpeg <-- it's funny that the greatly planned and strong German invasion encountered serious problems from defense like this 22:58:39 <sortkrudt> Well. Will of men who want freedom counts 1000 of arrogant people. 22:59:16 <sortkrudt> Small countries fighting huge countries has to do like vietnam; small group sabotaging and such 22:59:53 <sortkrudt> http://www.middlesexvillagetrading.com/MDBF.shtml this is one of my shotguns. blackpowder :) 23:00:15 <sortkrudt> kind'a funny weapon but crap metal. 23:00:52 <Bjarni> the thing is the motorbikes (Danish construction) had a top speed of 85 km/h. Germany used Panzer I with a top speed of 40 km/h and something else with a top speed of 80 km/h. This means the Danish soldiers could apply a hit and run tactic 23:01:58 <sortkrudt> I guess. I don't know that much about danish history. 23:02:00 <Bjarni> the Germans used 11 mm cannons while the Danes used 20 mm cannons with explosive armour piercing shells. 23:02:09 <sortkrudt> We just hide in the forrest, shot, and run. hehe 23:02:43 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-034-021.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 23:02:44 <planetmaker> @topic add -1 | today: free history lessons 23:02:44 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: topic add [<channel>] <topic> 23:03:09 <Bjarni> Which means the Danes set them to automatic and removed German vehicles one by one. In Norway the same kind of vehicles were used and nobody in Norway had strong enough weapons to penetrate the armourplating 23:03:13 <sortkrudt> Lot to learn about history leasson. 23:03:39 <sortkrudt> My grandfather was one of the secret undercovers. mainly dealing with explosives, and destroying bridges. 23:04:07 <sortkrudt> butz nordic countries were lucky cause main of our people was arian. :9 23:04:19 <Bjarni> my grandmother supplied food to resistance people, who had to go underground and hide 23:04:42 <sortkrudt> yes. I'm proud of knowing this fact of the brave men of those times. 23:04:51 <sortkrudt> not to fuck with nazis. 23:05:09 <Bjarni> many girls did 23:05:16 <sortkrudt> hihi 23:05:20 <sortkrudt> yea. well. girls. 23:05:48 <sortkrudt> I bet many soldiers was like: whatever.. when war is finished, i have to move from this crap fatherland 23:05:50 <Bjarni> and after the Germans left, those girls were captured, shaven on their heads (no more hair) and then put on public display 23:06:04 <sortkrudt> yea. heard of that. common in france aswell 23:06:17 <sortkrudt> its hard to judge. 23:06:31 <sortkrudt> when you got a govt. forcing you do be in a war, its hard to know who wants this war or not 23:06:54 <Bjarni> The Danish parlament resigned in 1943 23:07:15 <Bjarni> which meant the country was without parliament when the war ended. 23:07:18 <sortkrudt> we did resign in '45. 23:07:32 <sortkrudt> Ok. 23:07:52 <sortkrudt> I like no parliment tho, but. cant last forever. 23:08:15 <glx> works in belgium 23:08:27 <Eddi|zuHause> they have a parliament, but no government 23:08:30 <Bjarni> which left a huge problem... who should govern. They formed a government, which included all parties and some resistance people and they controlled the country until the next election (later that year... I think) 23:08:41 <sortkrudt> pure capitalism works best. its the only ethical system. 23:09:00 <Eddi|zuHause> pure capitalism doesn't work at all... 23:09:16 <sortkrudt> it does. history shows us this. 23:09:36 <sortkrudt> we haven't had pure capitalism since 1800's in US and hongkong the 1900s 23:09:38 <Elukka> it results in starving, people dying due to lack of healthcare, and other such fun stuff 23:09:38 <sortkrudt> sadly. 23:09:40 <Elukka> not what i'd call ethical 23:09:44 <Eddi|zuHause> only if you forget 90% of the history 23:09:48 <sortkrudt> Elukka, thats bs. 23:10:00 <sortkrudt> no Eddi|zuHause. You need to understand the history. 23:10:04 <sortkrudt> what is capitalism? 23:10:07 <Elukka> it does, though 23:10:17 <Elukka> what happens in pure capitalism if you flat out run out of money and can't secure a job? 23:10:19 <sortkrudt> it is only people who are allowed to choose products. 23:10:29 <sortkrudt> there will be no problems with jobs in pure capitalism 23:10:34 <sortkrudt> no taxes, no regulations. 23:10:34 <Elukka> yes there will 23:10:37 <sortkrudt> works best. 23:10:57 <sortkrudt> the world is black and white. either hardcore socialism or capitalism. can't avoid this. 23:10:57 <Bjarni> When London told that the war was over for Denmark, then everybody started celebrating. I read one story about a train arriving at a station and the station master informed the crew of the news. One big issue: the train had two German soldiers as guards..... they decided to carefully tell them and what happened next? 23:11:01 <Bjarni> take a guess :p 23:11:08 <Elukka> no roads, toxic food and children's toys... 23:11:15 <Elukka> a couple of results of no taxes and regulations that pop to mind 23:11:30 <sortkrudt> Elukka. bullshit. myths only. roads would be much better in free capitalism. 23:11:39 <Elukka> why do you think pure capitalism would mean everyone has a job anyway? 23:11:49 <sortkrudt> its a myth that govt. has to care with govt. school, roads and healthcare. 23:12:01 <sortkrudt> Elukka, cause peopel are genuinly egoists. its unavoidable. 23:12:12 *** perk11 [~perk11@188.255.47.217] has joined #openttd 23:12:17 <sortkrudt> it's the way, truth and the life. 23:12:18 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-178-004-177-245.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.] 23:12:19 <Elukka> in the real world, only countries with significant government participation in school, roads and healthcare have it work well 23:12:28 <sortkrudt> only on paper. 23:12:37 <sortkrudt> you really don't see the picture. 23:12:46 <Bjarni> capitalism sucks in it's pure form. Socialism sucks big time in pure or or semi-pure form. 23:12:53 <sortkrudt> I could mention co uple of names, and you would harvest alot of political understand if you would see some if it. 23:13:00 <Elukka> is one of them rand 23:13:03 <sortkrudt> Bjarni, no. capitalism is what we are tought since todlers. 23:13:07 <sortkrudt> Rand is awesome. 23:13:12 <Elukka> haha 23:13:13 <sortkrudt> I'm and randist. 23:13:15 <sortkrudt> -d 23:13:28 <Bjarni> <sortkrudt> Bjarni, no. capitalism is what we are tought since todlers. <-- and there are issues 23:13:44 <sortkrudt> Bjarni, no, you have to care about your self. if you wouldn't you wouldnt play tycoon :) 23:14:03 <Swissfan91> can anybody here draw good buildings in OTTD? or point me towards a good tutorial? 23:14:05 <Bjarni> pure capitalism includes stuff like China selling toothpaste to South America containing fake toothpaste, which is discovered when people drop dead 23:14:14 <sortkrudt> bs. 23:14:16 <Elukka> yes it does 23:14:21 <Elukka> it's the most profitable thing for the corporations to do 23:14:32 <sortkrudt> in capitalism you wouldnt have paper works. you just kill people who want to force people or swindle. 23:14:42 <sortkrudt> :) 23:14:48 <Elukka> that would quickly end up pure fascism 23:14:52 <sortkrudt> no. 23:14:56 <sortkrudt> it could, but no. 23:15:05 <Bjarni> btw did anybody even read my question? :) 23:15:13 <sortkrudt> fascism includes lobbyism, whcih is not possible in capitalism. 23:15:19 <sortkrudt> no. hehe 23:15:37 <Elukka> anyway, in pure capitalism... suppose you study for a field and the economy changes, and that field does not need any more laborers 23:15:44 <Elukka> you have no job, and no money to study for another field 23:15:46 <Elukka> what happens to you? 23:16:08 <sortkrudt> Elukka, i have to beg of mercy of others, or move to the forrest and live by my means - or die. 23:16:26 <sortkrudt> but since working is legal this would probably never happend. 23:16:30 <Eddi|zuHause> in pure capitalism there is no mercy 23:16:31 <Bjarni> Elukka: sort of like the nuclear technicians/engineers in Germany? ;) 23:16:34 <Elukka> being driven to the forest or dying is ethical to you? 23:16:48 <Elukka> you die due to the whims of the free market, and this is ethical? 23:16:50 <sortkrudt> yes it is, Eddi|zuHause. thats the point. US is the greatest charritable country for a reason. 23:17:08 <sortkrudt> Elukka. yes. its more ethical to die without harming others than sucking life out of others. 23:17:21 <Elukka> that's a pretty horrible viewpoint to be frank 23:17:27 <Bjarni> <sortkrudt> yes it is, Eddi|zuHause. thats the point. US is the greatest charritable country for a reason. <--- hence US isn't pure capitalism 23:17:35 <sortkrudt> only because you like to force people to do stuff they dont want to do, Elukka. 23:17:51 <sortkrudt> Bjarni, it is the most capitaalistic country in the world. 23:18:01 <Elukka> look, real people in the real world, if they're starving, they don't give a shit about ideology 23:18:09 <Bjarni> which shows no country has pure capitalism 23:18:15 <sortkrudt> no. most people ar ethieves, thats right Elukka. 23:18:15 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: it is also the country with the highest demand for charity 23:18:18 <Elukka> you wouldn't be espousing pure capitalism were you one of your nation's many poor people 23:18:34 <sortkrudt> Bjarni, yes, no country is perfect, but it doesnt tell us not to achieve perfection. 23:18:44 <sortkrudt> what is pure capitalism Elukka? choice? 23:18:47 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: that means there is an actual market for "charity" 23:18:48 <Elukka> you say this only because you are sufficiently wealthy and do not wish to share 23:18:51 <Bjarni> sortkrudt: if US is pure capitalism, then how do you explain the health bill? 23:19:09 <sortkrudt> Eddi|zuHause. ofcourse. dont you care about people? many do. and if they money for it, they will help 23:19:27 <Elukka> in the united states, right now people die because they cannot afford healthcare 23:19:30 <Elukka> there is no charity to them 23:19:31 <Elukka> nobody helps them 23:19:33 <Elukka> they just die 23:19:34 <Bjarni> btw it looks like the health bill turned out to be a real drain in the economy.... US has huge issues 23:19:35 <sortkrudt> Bjarni, its the *most* capitalistic country, but they are moving to nordic structure which could jeapardize the whole secular lifestyle 23:19:47 <Elukka> they die, due to curable diseases in a developed country well capable of curing them 23:19:58 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: that's only working because people are _not_ being capitalistic 23:20:01 <sortkrudt> I'm against the healthbill. they could privatize everything. much better. everything is better in private. 23:20:14 <sortkrudt> Eddi|zuHause. no. capitalistic is about caring about stuff. 23:20:29 <Elukka> well, it's nice to know you support a system where people will literally die due to your ideology, and you believe it's ethical 23:20:35 <Elukka> i won't engage in any more political discussions with you :) 23:20:41 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: capitalism is about caring about stuf that gets you anything in return! 23:20:46 <Elukka> now! sprites 23:20:51 <Elukka> http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Art%20and%20stuff/tweaks.png 23:20:53 <sortkrudt> if you look at the norwegian, danish or whatever govt. you'll allways find 99% of the stuff made in the private. you can substract the private, and you have nothing 23:20:57 <Elukka> upper is new, lower is old 23:21:00 <Elukka> eddi, what do you think? 23:21:07 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: yes, i want privatised nuclear power stations. because that's worked so well! 23:21:10 <Elukka> i added some lines to the roof, in real life they'd be too small to see at this scale but i still think it looks good 23:21:17 <Elukka> (they do exist in real life, they're just rather thin) 23:21:35 <sortkrudt> Eddi|zuHause. yes. if i give to my mother is of my knownledge that I have something in return. that means. i'm glad to help. it gives me something? would you ever play tycoon if it didnt GIVE you something? 23:21:55 <sortkrudt> Eddi|zuHause. ofc. nuclearpower is the way of the future. 23:23:12 <Bjarni> sortkrudt: tell that to the people of Fukushima 23:23:44 <sortkrudt> tell them not to allowe people like their emperor to be like this. taking side of nazis. 23:24:02 <sortkrudt> I fully support fukushima bombing. 23:24:04 <Bjarni> wtf 23:24:08 <glx> <sortkrudt> ... everything is better in private. <-- yeah rail safety in england was way better when it became private 23:24:16 <Bjarni> what did the emperor do? 23:24:34 <sortkrudt> glx. u dont understand. private is no connection with the govt. at all. who ever can build whatever they want. 23:24:39 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: by that statement you successfully disqualified yourself 23:24:41 <sortkrudt> Bjarni. take sides. 23:24:54 <glx> electricity in US is a nice thing too 23:24:55 <Eddi|zuHause> fukushima != hiroshima 23:24:57 <sortkrudt> Eddi|zuHause. yea right. heard this often. prolly because you think govt is ur God. 23:24:59 <glx> and it's totally private 23:25:12 <Bjarni> besides showing up on TV after the disaster and state that everybody should work together to overcome the disaster (mainly tsunami) 23:25:22 <sortkrudt> basically. your life is most important. if you dont love ur self, you are nothing. 23:25:34 <sortkrudt> we've seen ddr. we've seen ussr. socialism is not in our nature. 23:25:42 <sortkrudt> we are egoists. deal with it people. 23:26:10 * Elukka pokes Eddi 23:26:11 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19DED.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:26:16 <DDR> You've never seen me! 23:26:16 <Elukka> any more suggestions on how to bring it up to the set's standards? 23:26:22 <Bjarni> <Eddi|zuHause> fukushima != hiroshima <-- Hiroshima is the target of one nuclear bomb (blame the Americans). Fukushima is the site of nuclear meltdown in 3!!! reactors and they are still out of control 23:26:39 <Bjarni> leaking radiation and stuff 23:26:50 <glx> less than chernobyl 23:27:11 <sortkrudt> still less radiaton of scanners at the airport than the accident in japan after last tsunami. 23:27:14 <Bjarni> yeah, but still a major issue 23:27:42 <Bjarni> DDR: http://jp.dk/jptv/nyheder/indland/article2218917.ece <-- I just found a video from your place :p 23:27:48 <DDR> 'less than chernobyl'... that's like comparing a very small puncture in a garden hose to firehydrant a car just ran into. 23:27:55 <Eddi|zuHause> they meanwhile say some regions are even more radiated than after tschernobyl 23:28:35 <Bjarni> 'less than chernobyl' <-- sounds like "ferry sunk, 500 people drowned..... so what, it's less than Titanic" 23:28:38 <sortkrudt> assumption of private wanting evil is utterly self-contradictinary 23:28:55 <Elukka> fukushima is peanuts compared to the tsunami disaster at large 23:29:08 <Elukka> people only focus on it instead of the tsunami itself because it sounds more spectacular 23:29:17 <Bjarni> not really 23:29:23 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: we have seen how a bunch of egoists can bring entire countries and the world economy to its knees 23:29:29 <Elukka> it was a significant disaster, but it was far from the worst that japan experienced that day 23:29:35 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: how's that a glorious chapter of capitalism? 23:29:43 <Bjarni> the tsunami disaster can be fixed. Leaking radiation isn't something fixable 23:29:44 <DDR> Bjarni: More like '5 people drowned'... 23:29:53 <sortkrudt> Eddi|zuHause. yea. especially those who think they are not egoists. ehhe. every humanbeing is egoists. they need to lvie their life. they do it anyway 23:30:29 <DDR> Bjarni: Of course it is. You stop radiation leaking like you stop any other leak... it's just harder to get to. ;) 23:30:32 <sortkrudt> Eddi|zuHause, economy died cause of regulation, not the lack of. you should look into austrian economics, nor keynaism 23:30:40 <DDR> 3-Mile Island leaked, and it stopped soon enough. 23:30:57 <sortkrudt> not keynism.* 23:31:13 <Bjarni> DDR: if it's that easy to stop, then why is there still a leak? Also what about all the radiation, which has already leaked into the sea and farmland? 23:31:14 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: please give me some of the stuff you smoked 23:31:25 <sortkrudt> Eddi|zuHause. gief arguments plx. 23:31:29 <DDR> It's not _easy_ at all. It's just not impossible. 23:31:55 <sortkrudt> I know for a fact that system of printing press and that our govt is our God will fail. 23:31:57 <Bjarni> people are still evacuated and it looks like more people should have been evacuated, but it's unrealistic to evacuate millions of people 23:31:59 <glx> Bjarni: the problem is not stopping it, it's accessing the building 23:32:22 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: the economy collapsed because there was an "imaginary" economy that didn't have corrective measures (like taxes on transactions) 23:32:23 <Bjarni> I see those two issues as one issue 23:32:28 <sortkrudt> Gold have rissen 1500% since 90s. its for a reason: its not politically controlled. it reflects the market beautifully 23:32:30 <DDR> That's leaked. It's not continuing to leak... it might leech, and disperse, but I don't think enough has actually leaked out of the power plant to be lethal. Probably cancerous in the long run... 23:32:42 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: that means it builds up until it collapses. sooner rather than later nowadays. 23:32:44 * DDR shrugs. 23:32:48 <sortkrudt> Eddi|zuHause. bs. its the taxes and bailout that destroys the economy 23:32:53 <Elukka> okay, random people i asked suggest the original version with less random detail looks better 23:33:03 <sortkrudt> (that is, govt. interfering with the free market) 23:33:07 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: the bailouts were _after_ it already collapsed 23:33:23 <glx> remember 1929 23:33:36 <sortkrudt> sure. but govt. _strongly encourraged_ people to lend people to those who cant pay back. free market would never ever let that happend. 23:33:40 * Bjarni notes DDR supports nuclear power, even when the evidence is against it 23:33:41 <Eddi|zuHause> the "free market" does simply not work. there is no "natural balance" 23:33:42 <sortkrudt> it was politically descission. 23:33:54 <DDR> Mostly, too, the chernobyl plant actually *blew up*. It didn't leak so much as vaporize. Now, in Japan, nothing has blown up. You can drink different water, but you can't breathe different air. :P 23:34:02 <Bjarni> if it were harmless, would exports from Japan stop? 23:34:02 <sortkrudt> Eddi|zuHause. yes it is. dont you balance your self with your friend? you need a comitee to live with others? 23:34:10 <Eddi|zuHause> DDR: the fukushima plant is still leaking radiation. lots of. 23:34:13 <DDR> Bjarni: Well, how many people die from coal-fired power plants and their smog? 23:34:30 <Elukka> yeah, funny thing 23:34:38 <Elukka> coal kills many many more people than nuclear, chernobyl included 23:34:40 <Bjarni> exported food and goods have been found to be radioactive in excess of limits and have been stopped when entering other countries 23:34:59 <sortkrudt> anyway. humans law suck ass. just ignore them. its more about moral, which we are not tought in schools anymore. 23:35:17 <Swissfan91> I've drawn my FIRST SPRITE EVERYONE! :) 23:35:42 <Elukka> okay can we all talk about sprites and not nuclear for a while :P 23:35:47 <Bjarni> Swissfan91: I did that ages ago. I have yet to make one, which is good enough to include in the game though :p 23:35:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: kitchens kill most people 23:35:57 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: ban kitchens! 23:36:10 <Bjarni> coal power kills far less people than cars 23:36:16 <DDR> Besides, how else do we *get* power? We've only got so much coal and oil, our rivers are already dammed, and burning our forests seems unpalatable. Sure, there are various 'green' options like solar panels, but they're kind of beans compared to a large nuclear power plant. 23:36:43 <DDR> Bjarni: For a good working example, look at France. How many times have their nuclear power plants been in the news? 23:37:03 <Eddi|zuHause> DDR: currently, mankind uses like 2.5 times the energy that earth can regenerate 23:37:07 <Bjarni> if we use only one power source, then we would actually last longer on coal than nuclear power 23:37:10 <glx> a lot after fukushima DDR :) 23:37:19 <DDR> Yeah. We're kind of fucked in that regard. :/ 23:37:20 <Bjarni> we have coal for 400+ years with the current demands 23:37:33 <sortkrudt> and prolly oil 100 years ++ 23:37:44 <Swissfan91> thanks for the vote of confidence Bjarni :P 23:37:45 <DDR> glx: Heh, OK, you've got a point. I guess I meant, 'in the news because of a malfunction'. 23:38:00 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: depending on who you ask, "oil peak" already happened or is in the next ~5-10 years 23:38:03 <Elukka> we have coal for 400 years, but is the earth going to tolerate burning all that 23:38:20 <sortkrudt> Eddi|zuHause, its alot of oil left. you just need to work to get it out. 23:38:37 <DDR> sortkrudt: Yes, but we'll work harder and get less. 23:38:41 <sortkrudt> Eddi|zuHause: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1s_hld3JEQ 23:38:45 <Bjarni> Swissfan91: for the record: I didn't see your sprite. It could be fine. However there is no law that all sprites are good sprites ;) 23:38:50 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: like in canada, where "oil sands" require more energy than you get out of? that makes sense. 23:39:13 <DDR> Nah, oil sands is a _massive_ net gain. 23:39:15 <sortkrudt> Eddi|zuHause, yes, and the free market will solve it. if it wouldnt be metal we would have cars made out of wood. 23:39:32 <sortkrudt> free market solves everything :) 23:39:36 <DDR> Truly epic, much to the loss of some rather pretty forests above it. :/ 23:39:40 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: "oil peak" is the point where the global production of oil cannot be increased anymore 23:39:42 <sortkrudt> what free market doesnt solve, its not worth doing. 23:39:56 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: it doesn't mean the oil has "run out" 23:40:02 <Bjarni> <Elukka> we have coal for 400 years, but is the earth going to tolerate burning all that <--- if you talk about CO2, then yes. We can reduce CO2 emissions and then a volcano burps and we gained nothing 23:40:02 <sortkrudt> Eddi|zuHause, okey. but then they go for some other stuff. we have just barely started our explotation of the globe. 23:40:09 <Elukka> that's not true 23:40:30 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: but it means that when demand rises, and production doesn't rise as well, the price is going to skyrocket 23:40:31 <Bjarni> I think the known oil reserves will last 42 years.... assuming current usage 23:40:33 <sortkrudt> yes it is. science is not even close to finish its explotation. 23:40:42 <sortkrudt> sure. they've said this for 100 years. 23:40:54 <sortkrudt> they find oil field close to everyday 23:40:59 <Bjarni> we have natural gas for 130 years or something though 23:41:01 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: look at the oil crisis in the 1970's 23:41:11 <sortkrudt> so what? 23:41:11 <Elukka> volcanoes generate... going from memory here, but i can find sources... about 200 million tonnes of co2 a year, while humans generate over 30 000 million tonnes 23:41:18 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: nobody believed that the US oil runs out 23:41:23 <Eddi|zuHause> and then it suddenly did 23:41:28 <Eddi|zuHause> prices skyrocketed 23:41:29 <sortkrudt> so? 23:41:32 <Elukka> volcanoes are peanuts 23:41:33 <sortkrudt> and? 23:41:38 <DDR> _It will happen again._ 23:41:47 <sortkrudt> prices skyrocketing was OK. naturally 23:42:01 <Elukka> when eyjafjallajökull erupted, co2 emissions dropped as european planes were grounded 23:42:02 <sortkrudt> if you ahve ten people wanting ur stuff, instead of one man, its Ok to turn up the prize. 23:42:10 <Elukka> as those planes alone make way more co2 than the volcano 23:42:12 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: but the "free market" was horribly unprepared for that event. 23:42:24 <sortkrudt> we haven't had free market for ages. only parts of it. 23:42:31 <sortkrudt> but the free market will surivive. allways has 23:42:39 <sortkrudt> as long as u have humanbeings you have a free market. 23:42:45 <sortkrudt> only illegal ofcourse. he he 23:42:56 <Bjarni> CO2 estimation in Eyjafjallajokull turned out to be way lowered than what was measured 23:43:22 <sortkrudt> I love stuff which are not controlled. its so nice. I don't ask any govt. who I'm going to ahve babies with, nor do I ask them what I should do. Govt. cannot controll humanbenigs. no humans can do that. it has been tried. 23:43:29 <sortkrudt> only massmurders think this way 23:43:36 <Bjarni> which in turn leads to the possibility of redesigning the entire model of estimating CO2 in volcanic activity 23:43:52 <sortkrudt> maybe we should forbid volcanic activity? hehe 23:43:58 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: you're not even listening. 23:44:16 <sortkrudt> yea I'm. its just that I heard this point of view so many times. 23:44:25 <sortkrudt> govt. suck ass at everything. 23:44:39 <Bjarni> <sortkrudt> maybe we should forbid volcanic activity? hehe <--- yeah.... let's fine Iceland. Clearly they let out much more CO2 per person than the rest of us 23:44:42 <sortkrudt> if govt. doesnt why not have govt. controlling everything. 23:44:49 <Bjarni> (they are like 350k people) 23:44:49 <sortkrudt> Bjarni. hehe. yea. :) 23:45:01 <Bjarni> or 380k 23:45:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm having the feeling i am discussing about homeopathy, and all the counter-arguments i get are: "of course it doesn't work if you combine it with other medicine" 23:45:25 <sortkrudt> the nice with ayn rand is that she describes reality how it is without politicians fuckin' it . 23:45:48 <sortkrudt> Eddi|zuHause, capitalism doesnt work if you blend in sociialism. 23:45:53 <Elukka> even if volcanoes emit more than we think... do you think they can emit two orders of magnitude more? 23:46:11 <Eddi|zuHause> the nice thing with karl marx is that he describes reality how it is without economicians fuckin' it 23:46:40 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: socialism doesn't work if you blend in capitalism. 23:46:58 <Elukka> i like my mixed economy i live in thank you very much 23:47:25 <sortkrudt> Eddi|zuHause, true, but socialism doesnt work. we are all egoists. it will allways fail due this fact. 23:47:53 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: true, but capitalism doesn't work, we are all egoists, it will always fail due to this fact. 23:48:10 <sortkrudt> thats the reason for capitalism works. it admits that we are all egoists. 23:48:11 <Bjarni> looks up Taal (a volcano in the Philippines). Earlier this year the volcano were measured to release 4,600 tonnes/day and it wasn't erupting 23:48:29 <Bjarni> of CO2, that is 23:48:45 <glx> for me the main problem is stock market 23:49:12 <sortkrudt> main problem is regulations which kills the little man to do stuff. in us 70% of the market is 'non'stock-market'. 23:49:20 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the reason socialism works, it balances the fact that we are all egoists 23:50:10 <Elukka> that would be less than 2 million tonnes a year 23:50:24 <Bjarni> socialism doesn't work. People are egoists and when people lose the possibility to gain stuff personally from working, then people stop working 23:50:39 <Elukka> if you had ten thousand volcanoes releasing that much, human emissions would still dwarf volcano emissions 23:50:43 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: have you looked at the chicago food exchange? they had to split their stocks between "i want to actually sell/buy food" and "i just want to gamble on stuff". and then the "gamble" section has 10 times more "value" than the "real" market 23:50:48 <Elukka> that's how much we burn stuff 23:50:52 <Bjarni> <Elukka> that would be less than 2 million tonnes a year <--- from a non-erupting volcano 23:51:14 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: how does that blend in with your 70% figure? 23:51:26 <Elukka> it's a tiny amount even if every single volcano on earth that is not erupting releases that much 23:51:27 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: looks more like 10% to me. 23:51:32 <Elukka> then you add in the ones that do erupt and it's still a tiny amount 23:59:30 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing]