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00:19:11 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-179-039.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 01:49:14 *** mikethete [~mikethete@70-100-79-107.br1.sma.wv.frontiernet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:18:44 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:f1cd:a5eb:ccca:dc10] has quit [Quit: bye] 02:25:00 *** rhaeder1 [~quix0r@dslb-188-109-249-154.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 02:30:33 *** rhaeder [~quix0r@dslb-188-109-247-140.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:39:34 *** gelignite [~gelignite@i528C32AE.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: good nite] 03:09:56 *** z-MaTRiX [~matrix@index.linuxsecured.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:02:05 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b29.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:02:46 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b29.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 04:05:44 *** joho^_^ [~joho@c-6f04e155.132-7-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #openttd 04:06:18 *** joho [~joho@c-6f04e155.132-7-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:49:56 *** DDR [~DDR@142.179.78.88] has joined #openttd 04:56:02 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B738C2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:56:27 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B73878.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 05:27:57 *** supermop_ [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: supermop_] 05:32:27 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:42:52 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 05:46:11 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 05:46:14 *** Kogut [d586afe1@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 05:53:18 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:55:34 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 05:57:32 <Terkhen> good morning 06:12:16 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has joined #openttd 06:14:45 *** z-MaTRiX [~matrix@index.linuxsecured.net] has joined #openttd 06:16:15 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 06:18:56 <z-MaTRiX> hi 06:19:01 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 06:20:20 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@027af076.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:35:15 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 06:41:07 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 06:41:50 *** norbert79 [~Norbi@deibp9eh1--blueice1n2.emea.ibm.com] has joined #openttd 06:50:42 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #openttd 06:56:54 <Kogut> hi 07:08:32 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-179-039.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 07:13:22 <dihedral> good morning 07:13:37 <norbert79> morning 07:17:15 *** AndrewV [~chatzilla@203-59-135-71.perm.iinet.net.au] has joined #openttd 07:18:19 *** AndrewV is now known as Pawz 07:19:24 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:21:21 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 07:29:26 *** Elukka [Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 07:34:46 *** Pawz [~chatzilla@203-59-135-71.perm.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 7.0.1/20110928134238]] 07:38:31 <planetmaker> moin 07:39:53 <lugo> mornings 07:42:54 <norbert79> moin moin 07:45:41 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip3.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 07:45:53 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 07:53:16 <appe> morning 08:04:57 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1AD34.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 08:40:15 *** joho^_^ is now known as joho 08:40:20 *** DDR [~DDR@142.179.78.88] has quit [Quit: In democracy it's your vote that counts; In feudalism it's your count that votes. - Mogens Jallberg] 08:58:16 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:01:54 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 09:03:04 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:11:47 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b29.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:14:05 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b29.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 09:24:23 *** perk11 [~perk11@188.255.47.217] has joined #openttd 09:29:28 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:30:51 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip4.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 09:38:49 *** norbert79 [~Norbi@deibp9eh1--blueice1n2.emea.ibm.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving for now. Bye everyone!] 09:41:48 *** norbert79 [~Norbi@deibp9eh1--blueice4n2.emea.ibm.com] has joined #openttd 09:42:51 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 09:48:01 *** norbert79 [~Norbi@deibp9eh1--blueice4n2.emea.ibm.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:51:06 *** norbert79 [~Norbi@deibp9eh1--blueice4n2.emea.ibm.com] has joined #openttd 09:57:32 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:58:45 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 10:14:02 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:14:13 *** perk11 [~perk11@188.255.47.217] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 10:23:32 *** KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-8-68-209.as43234.net] has joined #openttd 10:33:26 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 10:42:02 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:54:22 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 11:09:18 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-178-004-177-154.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 11:21:05 <MNIM> hmmmh. 11:21:39 <MNIM> I kinda like the Canadian station sets, but I kinda wish there were more options with building 'parking space' pretties on top of the lines. 11:21:49 <MNIM> ..kinda 11:51:14 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 12:08:02 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:10:10 <Terkhen> I just noticed that houses can produce any number of cargos using callback 0x2E :O 12:10:50 <planetmaker> yeah... quite... powerful 12:10:54 <planetmaker> compared to industries ;-) 12:11:03 <Terkhen> and quite a headache for fixing subsidies :) 12:11:18 <planetmaker> hm, yes? 12:12:55 <Terkhen> I need to know what type of cargo is produced / accepted by all houses and industries 12:13:16 <planetmaker> hm... 12:14:54 <Terkhen> it seems that there are functions for doing that already :P 12:15:30 <planetmaker> :-) 12:15:37 <planetmaker> It sometimes makes one wonder :-) 12:20:28 *** norbert79 [~Norbi@deibp9eh1--blueice4n2.emea.ibm.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving for now. Bye everyone!] 12:21:50 <Terkhen> :P 12:22:46 <z-MaTRiX> :) 12:23:00 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 12:27:42 *** norbert79 [~Norbi@deibp9eh1--blueice2n2.emea.ibm.com] has joined #openttd 12:28:44 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1AD34.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:42:12 *** norbert79 [~Norbi@deibp9eh1--blueice2n2.emea.ibm.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:45:07 *** norbert79 [~Norbi@deibp9eh1--blueice1n2.emea.ibm.com] has joined #openttd 12:52:34 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has joined #openttd 13:06:50 <Belugas> hello 13:08:42 <Terkhen> hi Belugas 13:09:15 <Belugas> hi sir Terkhen :) 13:12:06 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:41ed:b64c:ea5d:79b9] has joined #openttd 13:12:09 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 13:21:32 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 13:27:06 <Belugas> ghrrr.... reboot time... be back 13:27:10 *** Belugas [~belugas@216.191.111.237] has quit [Quit: On snow, everyone can follow your traces] 13:31:38 *** Belugas [~belugas@216.191.111.237] has joined #openttd 13:31:41 *** mode/#openttd [+o Belugas] by ChanServ 13:45:17 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:45:35 <b_jonas> I think I'll play with fewer industries (and possibly fewer towns) in the next game so that I have more space 13:47:24 <Terkhen> hmm... playing the game 13:55:57 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 14:00:55 <planetmaker> wait... it can actually be _played_? 14:03:29 *** norbert79 [~Norbi@deibp9eh1--blueice1n2.emea.ibm.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving for now. Bye everyone!] 14:03:35 <Terkhen> maybe we should try to demonstrate empirically if it can be played or not 14:08:39 <Kogut> yes, only minimal coding is needed to create ai :) 14:08:46 *** norbert79 [~Norbi@deibp9eh1--blueice1n2.emea.ibm.com] has joined #openttd 14:21:22 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:25:19 *** TWerkhoven [~Turbulent@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 14:29:56 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 14:33:41 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:40:00 *** enr1x [~kiike@62.57.225.29.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #openttd 14:44:06 <Terkhen> hmmm... 14:44:10 <Terkhen> subsidies are confusing 14:44:44 * planetmaker sometimes uses AI to have them test the game ;-) 14:45:16 <planetmaker> like "cargo support needs testing and you're feeling lazy? - Just start 10 AIs and see what they can come up with" ;-) 14:52:38 <Terkhen> I'll do that once I finish with subsidies :P 14:56:24 <peter1138> subsidiaries1 14:56:27 <peter1138> -1+! 14:57:56 <Eddi|zuHause> !!11einself 14:58:08 <Terkhen> oh, that's a typo? 14:58:15 <Terkhen> good luck fixing it in OpenTTD source then :P 14:58:33 <Terkhen> I learned the word from there, it's everywhere 14:58:34 <Eddi|zuHause> no, it's something entirely different 14:59:13 <Eddi|zuHause> "subsidy" = government funding to aid development, "subsidiary" = subcompanies 14:59:44 <Eddi|zuHause> (basically multiple companies controlled by the same player) 14:59:57 <Terkhen> oh, I understand now :P 15:04:48 <peter1138> aka an ancient patch 15:04:50 <Terkhen> stupid msys, the console window hang up so badly that I can't even kill it 15:04:53 <peter1138> oh the fun we had 15:05:32 <Terkhen> what was that patch for? 15:06:13 <Terkhen> like infrastructure sharing? 15:06:23 <peter1138> yes, but it went further 15:06:45 <peter1138> you could charge people for using your tracks, etc... 15:10:04 <Terkhen> hmmm... sounds complicated :P 15:11:58 <peter1138> guess why it never hit trunk :) 15:13:00 <Terkhen> :) 15:13:26 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 15:19:41 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4d08ea7d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 15:25:18 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f55a3.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 15:30:56 *** DayDreamer1 [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 15:31:48 *** FHerne [~francis_h@pmsmail01.perse.co.uk] has joined #openttd 15:31:55 *** FHerne [~francis_h@pmsmail01.perse.co.uk] has left #openttd [] 15:32:21 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd 15:32:29 *** DayDreamer1 [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has left #openttd [] 15:33:38 <supermop> good day 15:35:33 <Terkhen> hi supermop 15:35:57 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:36:04 <frosch123> damn, it took me ages to understand today's xkcd 15:36:47 <norbert79> frosch123: Well, yeah, me too 15:37:03 <norbert79> frosch123: Wasn't that funny imo :) 15:37:13 <norbert79> frosch123: I am this crazy by default 15:37:22 <peter1138> it works if you knew about the fedex logo thing 15:37:38 <frosch123> i first had to look up the fedex logo to understand what they were talking about 15:37:46 <frosch123> then i could interpret the joke :) 15:38:13 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:39:50 <supermop> hi terken 15:40:01 <supermop> terkhen 15:40:56 *** norbert79 [~Norbi@deibp9eh1--blueice1n2.emea.ibm.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving for now. Bye everyone!] 15:41:38 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 15:45:49 * Terkhen wonders if OnNewMonth is called when a game starts 15:48:25 <Eddi|zuHause> that's like a one line patch :) 15:48:44 <Eddi|zuHause> printf("this line is executed") 15:49:47 <Terkhen> meh, that means compiling code 15:49:53 *** Hyronymus [~chatzilla@s53757898.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd 15:50:05 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-88-242.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 15:51:35 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@027af076.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 15:54:02 <Terkhen> nope, it isn't 15:54:05 <frosch123> i would expect it is not called 15:54:11 <frosch123> but the tileloop is called 15:54:12 * Terkhen rethinks his code 15:55:58 <Terkhen> hmm... there are no subsidies in the first month anyways 15:56:19 <Terkhen> I don't need to calculate town cargo acceptance / production before that 16:09:12 *** Kogut [d586afe1@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 16:14:34 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #openttd 16:19:38 *** ercole [~ercole@c100-123.i07-26.onvol.net] has joined #openttd 16:19:51 <ercole> hello 16:20:29 <Terkhen> hi ercole 16:20:46 <ercole> I would like to use the seaplane.grf on openttd 1.1.3 but it gives me an attempt to use wrong ID error 16:21:02 *** Kogut [d586afe1@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 16:21:27 <ercole> Is there a new version of this grf 16:22:08 <planetmaker> "wrong ID error"? 16:23:24 <MNIM> hmmmh, service vastly improved at all IC stations when I adopted TGV duplex across all intercities, but my profits dropped 50% 16:23:42 <planetmaker> nor can we answer your question at all, as we don't even know which newgrf (version) you use 16:24:33 <Rubidium> planetmaker: he meant STR_NEWGRF_ERROR_INVALID_ID 16:25:08 <planetmaker> oh 16:25:27 * planetmaker wonders when that is triggered 16:26:01 <Rubidium> probably when it tries to assign aircraft stuff to a non-aircraft? 16:26:04 <ercole> I use openttd 1.1.3 on ubuntu linux, if I download a new grf from the online resource it works OK, but seaplane.grf is not there, so I got the archive from the forums for windows and got the seaplane.grf file and added it manually to the data folder of openttd on linux 16:26:29 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1AD34.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 16:26:33 <MNIM> huh, I think some train just delivered a huge load 16:26:51 <Rubidium> ercole: that NewGRF is likely for some custom build of OpenTTD and as such you need that custom build 16:26:52 <glx> doesn't seeplane need some newairport stuff ? 16:26:54 <ercole> when I start openttd it recognises the grf and allows me to select it but when I start a new game I get the error 16:26:57 <planetmaker> hm, ho. Seaplane. I guess that's a NewGRF written for a never released testing version of OpenTTD 16:27:09 <MNIM> suddenly my year profit was higher than last year already in april 16:27:11 <planetmaker> yes, iirc it's something from an (old) NewAirports branch 16:27:18 <planetmaker> Thus it won't work with OpenTTD (yet) 16:27:33 <MNIM> (yet) (tm) 16:27:35 <MNIM> :P 16:27:44 *** DayDreamer1 [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 16:28:20 <ercole> So why was the project halted? 16:28:21 <planetmaker> of course we got the trademark on (tm)!. And you did use it without permission! ;-) 16:29:30 <planetmaker> ercole: long story short: there are things which need consideration and careful thought on how to implement in order to keep it both maintainable, a sane spec for airports and it needs implementation 16:29:36 <planetmaker> which needs time 16:29:41 <planetmaker> who said it's halted? 16:30:47 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:30:49 <planetmaker> and a very common reason for not immediately continuing with something is also "I got distracted" :-) 16:30:52 <MNIM> hmmmh, increased profit seems to be a trend 16:31:08 <MNIM> perhaps my halved profit resulted from unfinished upgrades :S 16:31:29 <ercole> so there will be a seaplane implementation in openttd then 16:31:31 <MNIM> planetmaker: tell me about it. 16:31:43 <MNIM> I build aircraft for xplane. 16:31:59 <MNIM> I still have an old plane from a year back or so that I need to finish. 16:32:15 <MNIM> in the meantime I have another almost ready to release >.< 16:32:20 <planetmaker> ercole: somewhen: very likely. when? No idea 16:32:31 <Terkhen> ercole: as soon as someone codes it and maintains it until it is deemed good enough for inclusion :) 16:32:53 <Kogut> like morehightlevels... 16:33:10 <planetmaker> which still needs lots of work 16:33:18 <planetmaker> it's not even finished once 16:33:27 <planetmaker> all newgrf support is lacking there 16:33:43 <ercole> The archivr I got for windows runs OK on windows and allows you to build seaport fro aeroplanes, it only does not work on openttd 1.1.3 16:33:59 <planetmaker> that might be 16:34:57 <planetmaker> as said: that newgrf was written for a development version which implemented stuff which has not yet been entirely made it into trunk this way 16:35:27 <planetmaker> thus it works for the custom openttd build found adjacent to it. But with no other openttd version 16:40:44 <ercole> there was also airportsextended.grf which also caused same problem 16:44:54 <planetmaker> ercole: yes... might well be, if they're written for that ancient development branch 16:46:11 <planetmaker> Hm... though... I guess in principle a sea airport could already be done 16:46:28 <planetmaker> via NewGRFs. Such NewGRF simply does not yet exist 16:46:59 <ercole> Hope to see one in the future 16:49:51 <planetmaker> Such hope can easily be made reality oneself ;-) 16:52:09 <planetmaker> depending on POV, writing a newgrf is more or less work than one might expect 16:53:43 <ercole> I decoded the seaplane.grf into the pcx & nfo file but the don't know what parameters to change in the nfo file 16:54:14 <planetmaker> the main problem would be to get sea airports, wouldn't it? 16:54:52 <planetmaker> if you want to make those planes available, I'd suggest to not write it in nfo but in nml if you have no prior grf coding experience 16:55:04 <planetmaker> http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NMLTutorial 16:55:07 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 16:55:39 <Terkhen> but doesn't it need special support that vanilla openttd does not have? 16:56:38 <planetmaker> yes and no... I got the idea that it might be possible to take one of the default statemachines and just attache seaport sprites to it 16:56:48 <planetmaker> any plane could fly there... but that's up to the player then 16:57:07 <planetmaker> it would be a marvelous extension for ogfx+airports 16:57:39 <planetmaker> not each statemachine would lend itself to this, but some probably could be made to look ok on sea 16:59:08 <planetmaker> but one will not get support like "this plane can't go to that airport" in vanilla openttd 16:59:21 <planetmaker> and it will definitely look funny when an A380 lands in the ocean... 16:59:27 <ercole> Btw here is the link where I found the seaplane.grf http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=36326&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=20 17:00:11 <ercole> AT the bottom of the thread is the file and picture 17:00:30 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-179-039.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:00:47 <planetmaker> yes, I see that. It *should* be feasible to get something like that with vanilla openttd 17:00:53 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-044-189.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 17:00:58 <planetmaker> it "just" needs coding of both, the plane and the airport 17:01:44 <planetmaker> as you see in the screenshot it is made with a really VERY ancient version of openttd from an indeed discontinued branch 17:01:58 <planetmaker> and the new attempt has not yet been finished 17:02:26 <ercole> The helicopter can land in both airports and heliports, while aeroplanes are allowed to land only in aerports. So make seaplanes in same way 17:03:44 <supermop> most seaplanes can typically only land on water 17:03:56 <ercole> the seaport could be a modified heliport 17:04:19 <planetmaker> the picture there shows a modified small airport ;-) 17:04:25 <planetmaker> and planes cannot land on heliports 17:04:37 <ercole> so seaplanes can land in aerports and seaports but normal aeroplanes can only land in airports 17:04:57 <planetmaker> currently every plane will be able to land everywhere 17:05:09 <planetmaker> there's no concept of sea planes in openttd trunk 17:05:29 <planetmaker> what one could do, is provide graphics, thus that one has sea planes and seaports 17:05:37 <Kogut> all AIs are supposed to do commands via AIObject::DoCommand and it requires DEF_CMD (like CMD_BUILD_RAIL_WAYPOINT) 17:05:49 <planetmaker> with the "benefit" that normal planes could land there, too. And seaplanes on a mountain-top airport as well 17:05:58 <Kogut> as I want to add new DEF_CMD definition 17:06:43 <Kogut> it is required to add it to command.cpp (sth like DEF_CMD(CmdBuildRailWaypointRectangle, 0, CMDT_LANDSCAPE_CONSTRUCTION), // CMD_BUILD_RAIL_WAYPOINT_RECTANGLE) 17:07:16 <Kogut> and to command_type.h (sth like CMD_BUILD_RAIL_WAYPOINT_RECTANGLE, ///< build a waypoint rectangle) 17:07:17 <ercole> have to go now, nice talking 17:07:19 *** ercole [~ercole@c100-123.i07-26.onvol.net] has quit [Quit: Bye for now!] 17:07:49 <Kogut> is it required to regenerate sth (like with new squirrel function)? 17:07:50 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r23004 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Feature [FS#4795]: Allow to use offsets for all types of action5 except sea shores 17:08:34 <Kogut> Or maybe it is bad idea to add new command type and new fuction to waypoint_cmd.cpp file? 17:09:51 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1AD34.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:09:53 *** Kogut [d586afe1@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 17:12:53 *** Kogut [d586afe1@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 17:17:54 <frosch123> "World population reaches 18,437! Senior citizens complain about crowded neighbourhoods!" 17:18:57 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, we should have more such messages, like "company XYZ builds 100th vehicle" 17:19:16 <frosch123> do you know the source of that quote? 17:19:34 <Eddi|zuHause> not really... 17:20:11 <frosch123> i am browsing forum topics from 2005 :p 17:20:18 <Terkhen> heh :P 17:20:25 <Terkhen> let's do NewGRF news 17:21:55 <Terkhen> I'm thinking about subsidies... if all cargos are the same (we don't assume anymore that passengers are the only thing that towns can produce and that everything else is produced by industries), does it make sense to start by choosing a random cargo instead of a random town / industry? 17:22:56 <frosch123> i would start with something with poor serivce 17:23:30 *** Jerre [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 17:23:32 <frosch123> i.e. something unserviced 17:23:35 *** Jerre [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:23:45 <Terkhen> hmm... can I measure poor service for any cargo produced in a town? 17:23:51 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 17:24:16 <Eddi|zuHause> towns measure transported cargos just like industries 17:24:43 <frosch123> hmm, i guess may idea gets pointless in later game stages 17:24:57 <Terkhen> I only remember them measuring cargos with a town effect, let me check 17:25:12 <Kogut> "start by choosing a random cargo" - wgat with strange cargos like regearing? 17:25:29 <Kogut> Or maybe secondary, unproduced 17:25:41 <Terkhen> Kogut: I can easily filter regearing cargos away 17:25:50 <Terkhen> but what's the problem with subsidizing secondary cargos? 17:26:00 <Kogut> I guess that sth with production>0 but with low service rate may be good idea 17:26:32 <Terkhen> there is a %transported limit already 17:26:44 <Terkhen> it must be lesser than 42 17:26:54 <Kogut> and still - there is single factory on map. 1/cargo_count subsidies will be awarded to this industry 17:27:01 <Kogut> may 17:27:19 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-86-31-202-169.oxfd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 17:27:35 <Terkhen> true, choosing cargos scales badly with map size 17:27:39 <Terkhen> hmm... 17:27:47 <Terkhen> towns have GetPercentPassTransported and GetPercentMailTransported 17:27:51 <Kogut> and is it possible to increase maximal length of subsided route? 17:28:07 <Kogut> now it is completely pointless 17:28:08 <Terkhen> maybe I should expand those functions to all cargos 17:28:26 <Terkhen> in fact I must, otherwise this won't work 17:28:49 <Terkhen> Kogut: distance is a single constant in the code 17:28:58 <Terkhen> making it a setting is out of the scope of my patch for now, though 17:29:09 <Terkhen> although it could be added later 17:29:21 <Kogut> @Terkhen - well, maybe this is kind of patch that is doable for me 17:30:12 <Terkhen> yes, it is a small patch... but you probably shouldn't start with it until I'm done with subsidies, I could mess your patch :P 17:30:32 <Terkhen> hmmm... I remember adding something like that to my patch pack years ago, maybe there is a patch already at the forums somewhere 17:30:53 <Terkhen> Kogut: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=32452 17:30:54 <Kogut> @Terkhen - I am trying to add new function to NoAI API 17:31:33 <Terkhen> meh, adapting towns will take a while 17:31:52 <Terkhen> I should have suspected it, the patch was too simple :) 17:32:13 <Terkhen> Kogut: adding a setting for subsidy distance will probably be simpler 17:32:21 <Terkhen> I haven't fiddled much with the NoAI code 17:32:52 <Kogut> and I wonder - is it possible to group AIObject::DoCommand in way "do all or nothing" 17:33:20 <Kogut> @Terkhen - well, my AIAI requires this function 17:33:30 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-86-49-123-120.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 17:33:30 <Terkhen> hmmm 17:33:38 <Terkhen> what do you mean? 17:33:51 <Eddi|zuHause> imho subsidies should work completely different. like "transport >X cargo per year from A to B, gain exclusive rights for 10 years" 17:33:52 <Kogut> and as I see nobody is interested in adding new noai API functions 17:33:58 <Terkhen> not building stuff partially like when you build a road up to an obstacle? 17:34:07 <Kogut> yes 17:34:16 <Terkhen> I have some code for you, let me check the revision 17:35:00 <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: I agree that subsidies should be different, but for now I'm only fixing the source/destination mess 17:35:45 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-86-31-202-169.oxfd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:37:16 <Terkhen> @commit 18986 17:37:16 <DorpsGek> Terkhen: Commit by terkhen :: r18986 /trunk/src (3 files in 2 dirs) (2010-02-02 21:25:01 UTC) 17:37:17 <DorpsGek> Terkhen: -Fix (r18803): Make building long roads fail for AIs if there is an obstacle in the way. 17:37:21 <Terkhen> Kogut: ^ 17:39:21 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r23005 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix (r23004): Of course there's still the 16-sprite version for shore tiles... we should continue to handle it. 17:43:11 *** KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-8-68-209.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:43:42 <Kogut> @Terkhen - it changes behaviour of CMD_BUILD_LONG_ROAD 17:43:48 <Terkhen> only for the AI 17:43:56 <Terkhen> it is something "wrong" to do 17:44:08 <Terkhen> but if someone requested the normal behavior for AIs I would code a switch 17:44:14 <Kogut> and I cannot change behaviour of existing functions 17:44:24 <Terkhen> I just assumed that every NoAI author would prefer the specific behavior :) 17:44:59 <Kogut> As changing from AIRail::BuildRailWaypoint(TileIndex tile) to AIRail::BuildRailWaypoint(TileIndex tile, StationID waypoint_id) will break all AIs using this function 17:45:36 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r23006 /trunk/src/lang/ (latvian.txt portuguese.txt unfinished/persian.txt): 17:45:36 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:45:36 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: latvian - 4 changes by Parastais 17:45:36 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: persian - 20 changes by Peymanpn 17:45:36 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: portuguese - 1 changes by JayCity 17:45:44 <Kogut> and stupid squirrel is unable to use default parameters or function overloading 17:46:09 <Kogut> maybe I will add CMD_BUILD_RAIL_WAYPOINT_RECTANGLE 17:46:16 <Terkhen> IIRC you need to code a compatibility function for older versions o fthe NoAI API 17:46:22 <Terkhen> adding new commands is not a good option IMO 17:46:27 <Terkhen> anyways, I have to go now :) 17:46:34 <Terkhen> sorry, we can continue this conversation tomorrow 17:48:26 *** KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-8-68-209.as43234.net] has joined #openttd 18:06:05 <appe> hm 18:06:11 <appe> something is up with my trains 18:06:12 <appe> http://gyazo.com/49c5918bf6741166f281bb4202ff3c9d 18:06:35 <appe> look at that. the train takes the shortcut instead of going to the sunningwell refinery 18:06:41 <appe> although it has orders to go there 18:07:07 *** DayDreamer1 [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:07:52 <PeanutHorst> you need to change your signals to force it to go to the sunningwell refinery, i'd guess 18:08:39 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 18:15:22 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:17:33 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.185.169] has joined #openttd 18:22:57 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@88.130.176.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:31:15 *** macee [~macee@54005F0D.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has joined #openttd 18:38:10 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 18:44:18 *** macee [~macee@54005F0D.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has left #openttd [] 18:47:12 *** Elukka [Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 18:49:50 <Elukka> "But not everybody is enthusiastic. Around 10 people demonstrated outside Wednesday's news conference in Helsinki, carrying plaques saying "E.ON E.OFF - German nuclear power to Finland? No thank you." 18:49:55 <Elukka> i love how 10 people is news 18:49:56 <Elukka> 10 people! 18:51:19 <V453000> :D 18:51:41 <Eddi|zuHause> is that some follow-up to siemens announcing to pull out of a nuclear project in finland? 18:52:00 <Eddi|zuHause> (and all other nuclear projects as well) 18:55:16 <Elukka> not really 18:55:36 <Elukka> they got around to picking the site of a new plant 18:55:39 <Elukka> people complain 18:55:56 <Elukka> supposedly environmentalists, but you'd think if they were real environmentalists they'd be complaining about the coal power 18:56:52 <__ln__> the green party here has the perfect solution for all the energy we need in the future. 18:57:58 <Elukka> i'd even vote for a green party if 1. their other politics were sensible 2. their 'green' politics were sensible 18:58:06 <__ln__> "we shall make new innovations, which create both environmentally-friendly energy and new jobs for people" 18:58:08 <Elukka> they are so clueless 18:58:57 <Elukka> nuclear is currently the only form of power that's both environmentally friendly and economical enough for large scale implementation 18:59:13 <Elukka> well, hydro works too but it's limited to how many suitable rivers you have... 18:59:38 <planetmaker> and can be argued to not be environmental friendly, too ;-) 18:59:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i guess finland has plenty of water, but is too flat for water power 19:01:26 <__ln__> i found a page that says there are 207 hydro power plants in here. 19:01:46 <__ln__> 57 of them over 10MW 19:01:57 <Elukka> we have plenty, just it isn't really possible to build any more 19:02:25 <Elukka> dams certainly have their own environmental issues too 19:04:07 <V453000> austria? :) 19:04:41 <Elukka> finland 19:05:17 <Elukka> really, i think the sensible thing to do would be to replace coal with nuclear 19:05:49 <planetmaker> fusion 19:06:01 <Elukka> and with wind and solar to the degree feasible... probably not very much 19:06:17 <Elukka> fusion has the issue of always being 30 years in the future 19:06:28 <planetmaker> Elukka: Germany had last year about 10 nuclear plants running on average. 19:06:32 <Elukka> it'll be great once they figure it out but you can't really make plans on it 19:06:43 <planetmaker> Now it has one on standby. Which is about 10GW of installed power 19:06:50 <V453000> planetmaker: even currently? I have no clue about the current situation tbh 19:07:00 <planetmaker> obviously shutting down them, had no detrimental effect ;-) 19:07:15 <V453000> hm :) 19:07:17 <planetmaker> V453000: now there's none running 19:07:18 <Elukka> germany's phasing out of nuclear power must be one of the most misguided and environmentally harmful things anyone has done in a good while 19:07:23 <planetmaker> or one. Not entirely sure 19:07:26 <V453000> yeah :| 19:07:36 <planetmaker> Elukka: why? 19:07:40 <V453000> well you are online so I see you have electricity :P 19:07:47 <Elukka> they're building a dozen coal plants 19:07:51 <Elukka> many of them burn lignite 19:07:53 <planetmaker> Germany still exports more electricity than it imports 19:07:55 <Elukka> it's the dirtiest fuel available 19:08:25 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: 10MW is really nothing... 19:08:48 <planetmaker> it's the equivalent of _one_ modern wind turbine 19:08:50 * peter1138 puts Eddi|zuHause on a treadmill 19:08:57 <panna> i heard there's uranium in the coal 19:09:09 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:09:12 <planetmaker> I heart there's uranium within you, panna 19:09:17 <Elukka> they're replacing an environmentally friendly, economical form of power with the worst kind imaginable 19:09:20 <Eddi|zuHause> "sizeable" power stations start around 100MW, "large" ones more likely around 1GW 19:09:20 <V453000> hm I thought turbine makes even less :) 19:09:23 <Elukka> it makes no damned sense 19:09:25 <andythenorth> barp 19:09:27 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: i know. anyway, 4% of all electricity comes from water. 19:09:39 <planetmaker> Elukka: tell that someone living in Chernobyl of Fukushima 19:09:52 <V453000> he, yeah 19:10:23 <panna> my heart beams 19:10:26 <panna> radiates 19:10:29 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-142-31.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 19:10:29 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 19:10:29 <V453000> but was it someones actual fault in fukushima or was it just the quakes and whatnot? 19:10:30 <Eddi|zuHause> the only way you can get nuclear power to be both "economical" and "environmental" is if you discount the possibility of it blowing up 19:10:32 <Elukka> fukushima wasn't half as bad as chernobyl... and should we stop building dams because there was a catastrophic dam accident that ruined a whole area and killed a hundred thousand in china? 19:11:03 <Elukka> eddi, nuclear hurts people and the environment when it blows up which is very rare 19:11:10 <Elukka> coal hurts people and the environment under normal operation 19:11:11 <planetmaker> Elukka: the difference between a catastrophic dam failure and a catastrophic nuclear plant failure is the long-term effect 19:11:22 <Belugas> a dam causes damages one time and not for an extensive lenght of time 19:11:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: actually, the amount of radiation believed to have been released from fukushima until now is higher than the one released by tschernobyl 19:11:31 <V453000> :o 19:11:42 <planetmaker> and yes, what eddi says 19:11:42 <Eddi|zuHause> and fukushima is still far from being "under control" 19:11:48 <Elukka> i recall in china coal kills around 200 people per terawatt hour 19:11:53 <planetmaker> and the amount of people impacted is not less either 19:12:19 <andythenorth> coal kills coal miners with regularity 19:12:22 <andythenorth> hmm 19:12:45 <andythenorth> did someone just commit roadtypes? :o 19:12:46 <Eddi|zuHause> and uranium doesn't kill uranium miners? 19:12:48 <Elukka> if nuclear killed 200 people would be calling for all nuclear plants to be shut down right now 19:13:00 <Elukka> they just don't notice that coal is worse in all respects 19:13:28 <Eddi|zuHause> everybody knows that coal is bad 19:13:33 <planetmaker> Elukka: your perception might be wrong on some aspects ;-) 19:13:34 <Elukka> if we want to talk long term, how about the way we've increased the co2 concentration in the atmosphere by a third and how it's bound to have all sorts of fun global effects 19:13:51 <Eddi|zuHause> the difference is accidents with coal are generally locally confined 19:14:03 <Elukka> well, since we agree coal is bad, what do you suppose we should replace it with? 19:14:05 <Eddi|zuHause> there is no 30km evacuation radius around any coal plant in the world 19:14:21 <Elukka> yeah because coal spreads its poison all around on a regular basis 19:14:23 <planetmaker> Elukka: regenerative energy: wind, solar, geo-thermal, ... 19:14:31 <andythenorth> hmm 19:14:42 <andythenorth> hmm hmmm hm hmmm 19:14:43 <planetmaker> tidal on coastal regions. 19:14:55 * andythenorth lives close to multiple nuclear plants 19:14:56 <andythenorth> what fun 19:14:59 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: there's still a difference from effects being "bad" (coal) or "devastating" (nuclear) 19:15:02 <Elukka> none of those are economical enough for large scale implementation 19:15:05 <__ln__> 30 km evacuation zone is insignificant compared to the landarea of a continent. 19:15:05 * andythenorth is also in a tsunami zone 19:15:09 <Elukka> nuclear isn't 'devastating' 19:15:23 <Elukka> it's kinda like how car accident deaths aren't reported because they happen all the time, but plane accidents are because they're rare and spectacular... planes are still safer than cars, though 19:15:38 *** TWerkhoven[l] [~turbulent@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:15:42 <planetmaker> uhm... ? What could be a worse accident than Chernobyl or Fukushima? 19:15:45 <V453000> or we can send the unemployed to hamster-like running machines so they produce electricity and suddenly zero unemployment globally \o/ 19:16:04 *** TWerkhoven[l] [~turbulent@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 19:16:06 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: volcanos with unspeakable names :p 19:16:12 <V453000> :D 19:16:20 <Elukka> coal in general is a much worse accident than chernobyl and fukushima combined 19:16:43 <Elukka> it's a slow, steady, constant accident instead of one spectacular event, so people don't notice 19:16:53 <__ln__> yes, and coal emits more radiation all the time than nucular power plants do. 19:17:02 <planetmaker> which is ok 19:17:06 *** TWerkhoven[l] [~turbulent@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:17:12 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: actually, there have been spectacular coal-events, but those were in the 1950s 19:17:17 <planetmaker> it's not nice, but it can be solved in time as it's a slow problem 19:17:19 <Elukka> it kills people, ruins the environment and causes what is essentially uncontrolled global geoengineering 19:17:24 <Rubidium> planetmaker: coal plants' radiation? 19:17:50 <Eddi|zuHause> radiation in low dosages is (practically) harmless 19:18:04 <V453000> I agree with using nuclear energy, but on the other hand with your point when someone notices something, if you drink 1 beer per evening is also better than if you dont drink for a year and then drink several kegs :P 19:18:17 <Eddi|zuHause> hiking through the mountains gives you more radiation than any coal power plant nearby 19:18:21 <planetmaker> Rubidium: yes. Their ashes contain more radioactive material than is released by a nuclear plant under "normal" operation 19:18:25 <Kogut> In Poland there are large areas of cities destroyed due to coal mines below 19:19:07 <planetmaker> V453000: good analogy :-) 19:19:16 <V453000> :P 19:19:30 <planetmaker> the nuclear plant is unfortunately the "now drink this whole barrel" type 19:19:38 <V453000> yes exactly 19:19:53 <Elukka> there have been two serious nuclear accident in the world ever 19:20:14 <Eddi|zuHause> actually no 19:20:18 <Eddi|zuHause> there were like 20 19:20:19 <Elukka> consider the scale of the entire world for a second 19:20:23 <andythenorth> Elukka: quite a lot more than 2 19:20:24 <__ln__> Elukka: more 19:20:28 <V453000> there were 2 officially 19:20:32 <Elukka> okay, which 19:20:40 <Eddi|zuHause> three mile island 19:20:43 <andythenorth> is there an official scale of 'serious' 19:20:44 <andythenorth> ? 19:20:46 <Elukka> three mile island sure wasn't a serious accident 19:20:57 <Rubidium> planetmaker: but when you drink a whole barrel you'll vomit, i.e. you'd go away ;) 19:21:00 <Elukka> if it kills nobody and doesn't ruin any amount of land i don't think it counts as serious 19:21:12 <andythenorth> also, didn't we discuss this before :P 19:21:16 <V453000> Rubidium: :D 19:21:20 <supermop> it was a serious meltdown, but the containment building didnt fail 19:21:26 <planetmaker> Elukka: agreed. But then there are even more than 20 19:21:26 <Elukka> anyway, one of the real ones was caused by a catastrophic earthquake and tsunami... that dwarfed the nuclear accident itself 19:21:32 <andythenorth> can we not go and troll some stupid forum threads? 19:21:43 <supermop> that building is still completely sealed and useless 19:21:46 <planetmaker> Elukka: did the tsunami dwarf it? Sure? 19:21:52 <planetmaker> The tsunami is gone. 19:21:54 <Elukka> so TMI ruined a building 19:21:56 <Elukka> no it's not 19:22:00 <Elukka> the tsunami destroyed huge swathes of land 19:22:11 <planetmaker> The plant will continue to have a dead-zone around for decades to come 19:22:12 <Elukka> it'll cost endless billions to rebuild 19:22:16 <z-MaTRiX> :) 19:22:22 <Elukka> i kind of doubt that 19:22:26 <andythenorth> meh 19:22:27 <planetmaker> which is more billions than the tsunami for sure 19:22:37 <z-MaTRiX> p=printf\ ;$p\%q "The Matrix has you..."|while read -n1 c;do $p\%s "$c";usleep $(($RANDOM*20));done;$p\n; 19:22:38 <Elukka> extremely doubtful 19:22:41 <planetmaker> and totally avoidable :-) 19:22:43 <z-MaTRiX> (itsa bashscript) 19:22:46 <planetmaker> while the tsunami was not ;-) 19:23:00 <Elukka> either way, a nuclear accident due toa 15 meter tsunami wave is hardly an argument against nuclear as a whole 19:23:09 * andythenorth considers nuclear plant for FIRS 19:23:36 <supermop> it is an argument against keeping 40+ year old boilig water reactors around 19:23:42 <Elukka> that's true 19:23:51 <Elukka> fukushima would have been avoidable 19:23:57 <planetmaker> Elukka: it is. 19:23:58 <MNIM> andythenorth: that's actually kinda cool. 19:23:58 <V453000> andythenorth: will it go BOOM? :D 19:24:10 <supermop> but yes, coal plants kill many more people 19:24:13 <planetmaker> or do you argue also a coal power plant at that site would have such aftermath? 19:24:23 <MNIM> uranium mine -> uranium enrichment plant -> nuke plant? 19:24:44 <Elukka> to be logically consistent, you must also be against water power as it has caused a truly catastrophic accident that resulted in a hundred thousand deaths 19:25:09 <Elukka> no, if it was a coal power plant it'd instead have contributed to a global catastrophe for the past few decades 19:25:17 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: list of all nuclear incidents categorized INES 4 or higher: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_von_UnfÀllen_in_kerntechnischen_Anlagen 19:25:26 <V453000> andythenorth, MNIM... and the uranium enrichment plant should require chemicals or something from other FIRS stuff :) 19:25:28 <supermop> well hydro is worse due to destruction of land, see 3 gorges 19:25:48 <Elukka> and the only one with significant death toll in that list is chernobyl.. 19:25:59 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1AD34.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 19:26:09 <Elukka> it is absolutely dwarfed by the death toll from coal or even hydro 19:26:13 <MNIM> exactly, V453000: I was thinking of something to tie it in the chain, but didn't find anything in an instant 19:26:25 <MNIM> elukka: you're being incredibly shortsighted here. 19:26:27 <V453000> I suppose chemicals are best 19:26:40 <V453000> or alcohol? :P 19:26:43 <planetmaker> MNIM: he's incredibly trolling ;-) 19:26:51 <V453000> Alcohol solves _everything_ 19:26:51 <Elukka> i am also thinking from the viewpoint of what is good for the coming centuries... 19:26:51 <MNIM> probably. 19:26:53 <Elukka> no i am not 19:27:14 <Elukka> the entire argument against nuclear is emotionally based, it doesn't seem to matter if one shows it has objectively less deaths than other forms of power 19:27:24 <MNIM> anyway, a coal plant may cause destruction of the environment /if all goes well/ for centuries to come 19:27:31 <V453000> I dont have too distanced opinion from Elukka, but I know I dont know much about it so I dont express it :) 19:28:05 * andythenorth is moderately convinced by nuclear 19:28:19 <MNIM> but the damage a coal plant causes (sulphur and carbon in the atmosphere) can be minimized and/or compensated. 19:28:24 <Elukka> i wouldn't be surprised if our overall distaste for nuclear will be what will end us, if sufficiently severe global warming occurs 19:28:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: how is something good for the "upcoming centuries" when the already accumulated waste has to be watched over for 10.000 years? 19:28:38 <MNIM> if all does not go well, it may cause, say, a hundred deaths over the course of a week. 19:28:45 <planetmaker> also... from a fuel supply perspective nuclear is not a future technology. Uranium supply won't last longer than coal either 19:29:00 <Elukka> coal deposits the waste in the atmosphere... nuclear deposits it in the bedrock 19:29:01 <Elukka> i'd pick the latter 19:29:34 <Elukka> planetmaker, almost all of that waste is usable nuclear fuel 19:29:37 <Elukka> we have the technology 19:29:46 <Elukka> additionally, thorium reactors are an attractive near term prospect 19:29:50 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: and now count the instances of civilization "forgetting" the existence of anything in the last 10.000 years 19:30:00 <V453000> :D 19:30:00 <Eddi|zuHause> which is basically the complete history of mankind 19:30:07 <V453000> fair point 19:30:16 <Elukka> it's 800 meters underground, what harm will it cause? 19:30:16 <MNIM> the best solution for nuclear waste is letting it go through it's entire decay chain until it causes no harm 19:30:28 <Elukka> either way it's still less bad than the waste coal power constantly pumps in the atmosphere 19:30:53 <Elukka> using the waste as fuel has some safety issues that would make it less economical to use, though... for one, it's significantly radioactive 19:30:56 <Elukka> traditional nuclear fuel isn't 19:31:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: politicians can't even plan 5 years ahead. how do you expect them to plan 10.000 years ahead? 19:31:20 <andythenorth> train snowplough: http://www.windhoff.de/pic/ft/obb/ssf/b2.jpg 19:31:21 <Elukka> they've already built a waste repository deep underground over here, so i guess they managed 19:31:28 <MNIM> if that waste is properly taken care of, or if nuclear fusion becomes a viable option in the next couple of decades or so, nuclear waste is not an issue, and your only problem is safety 19:31:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: what if seismic activity pushes the 800m deep deposit into a water supply, which poisons whole rivers? 19:31:59 <planetmaker> Elukka: nuclear waste in the "bedrock" is as good as nuclear waste in your drinking water ;-) 19:32:00 <Elukka> that's why you carefully choose your location so that cannot happen 19:32:00 <V453000> andythenorth: that is bloody cute :D 19:32:10 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: nuclear waste is totally useless to fusion plants 19:32:20 <Elukka> yeah but nuclear waste is useful to fission plants 19:32:21 <MNIM> exactly, eddi 19:32:30 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host64-51-dynamic.15-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 19:32:38 <Wolf01> evenpink 19:32:44 <MNIM> there is no (read, negligible) waste from a fusion plant. 19:32:44 <V453000> morning 19:32:50 <Kogut> @10.000 year - there are plans, including "how to mark it?" 19:32:56 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: that's the point, nobody knows what the proper criteria are to choose the location carefully enough 19:33:01 <Elukka> fusion would be in every way superior to fission, at least if it ends up economical 19:33:05 <Elukka> it's just it doesn't exist yet... 19:33:33 <Elukka> are we really worried that in 4000 years some archeologist stumbles upon our waste canisters and dies of radiation poisoning? 19:33:35 <planetmaker> the advantage is its lack of catastrophic failure 19:33:51 <__ln__> if it did exist, oil companies would buy all the rights to the technology 19:33:55 <MNIM> anyway, your biggest danger will come from terrorism, bad maintenance and poorly skilled operators, and freak tsunamis and earthquakes, like they're afraid of in the netherlands. 19:34:06 <Elukka> and is that a more significant concern than the 30 gigatonnes of waste coal pumps into the atmosphere? 19:34:44 <V453000> I think that world ends in 2012 so we dont have to give a crap about what is in 4000 years. Period :-D :P 19:34:51 <Elukka> what i do agree with is that 30 year old reactors should be decommissioned 19:34:56 <Elukka> they should be replaced with new reactors, though 19:35:18 <MNIM> However, even if one single wrongly turned screw cracks, you might not be looking at a hundred deaths over a week, but more likely thousands, even millions of deaths and diseases caused indirectly by nuclear release. 19:35:33 <Elukka> that seems rather unlikely 19:35:36 <Rubidium> Elukka: it's not necessarily the old ones, it's also the ones at dangerous locations 19:35:54 <Eddi|zuHause> if one can't even find a politically accepted way to build a train station, or 3km of highway, how do you expect to get through with building a nuclear power station? :) 19:36:06 <MNIM> and, in the worst case scenario, seven /billion/ deaths and diseases 19:36:08 * andythenorth will be annoyed if the world ends in 2012 19:36:11 <Rubidium> but heh... you want cheap electricity, so they run them as long as possible to make them make as much money as possible 19:36:14 <andythenorth> it means roadtypes won't get done :( 19:36:17 <MNIM> EG - the whole world population 19:36:20 <MNIM> hahaha, andy 19:36:27 <MNIM> that'd suck indeed 19:36:41 <Elukka> haha 19:36:42 <V453000> andythenorth: :D yeah that would suck 19:36:45 <Elukka> how will nuclear power kill 7 billion 19:36:59 <Kogut> http://www.wipp.energy.gov/picsprog/test1/Permanent_Markers_Implementation_Plan_rev1.pdf 19:37:00 <MNIM> elukka: ever heard of the phrase 'nuclear winter'? 19:37:01 <Elukka> nuclear weapons couldn't kill that many 19:37:22 <MNIM> directly? no. indirectly? several times over. 19:37:31 <Elukka> yes, the idea of a nuclear winter (which is considered very doubtful now) comes from nuclear weapons, not power plants, lifting enough matter to the atmosphere to block out a significant amount of heating from the sun 19:37:33 <Rubidium> pff... just shut down the largest nuclear source of energy and you'll see pretty quickly 19:37:33 <andythenorth> the thing with world-ending prophecies is that eventually, if enough are made, one will be correct 19:37:36 <Elukka> pwoer plants... can't do that 19:38:13 <supermop> hey andy 19:38:17 <Elukka> (the reason it's considered doubtful is that during the gulf war those burning oil wells, which released gobs of stuff, didn't have much of an effect) 19:38:20 <planetmaker> Elukka: but the nuclear ones are far better targets for terrorists than any other power plant ;-) 19:38:27 <Rubidium> s/the/our/ 19:38:31 <planetmaker> (there that you argued with the terrorism comparison) 19:38:36 <supermop> would you mind giving me ome feedback on my grf if you get a chance? 19:38:36 <MNIM> your average powerplant has the munition for several nukes 19:38:41 <Elukka> no, it does not 19:38:50 <Elukka> it's not sufficiently enriched 19:38:53 <MNIM> and burning powerplants cause CO2, not dust 19:38:54 <Eddi|zuHause> wasn't there one other world ending prophecy that was supposed to happen in spring, and then was postponed to autumn? 19:38:54 <Elukka> and that's not a small difference 19:38:58 <Eddi|zuHause> did that happen yet? 19:38:59 <MNIM> dust=cold Co2=hot. 19:39:14 <Elukka> that... doesn't make sense either :/ 19:39:26 <Rubidium> MNIM: what is ash? 19:39:32 <MNIM> well, actually, CO2 /could/ cause a cold, but long before that we'd be more worried about not suffocating. 19:39:36 <Elukka> you know, saddam had a nuclear power plant 19:39:40 <MNIM> dust. oil doesn't give much ash 19:39:48 <Elukka> he did not have the years of research and massive industrial facilities required to build a nuclear weapon, though 19:39:55 <Elukka> a nuclear plant simply cannot cause a nuclear explosion 19:40:01 <supermop> the dangerous emissions from coal plants are the particulates that cause asthma and lung cancer 19:40:07 <TrueBrain> welcome to #openttd . We do not talk about OpenTTD. We are that elite in this club :D 19:40:08 <Elukka> it's physically impossible 19:40:15 *** enr1x [~kiike@62.57.225.29.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:40:18 <TrueBrain> Elukka: wanna bet? :) 19:40:20 <MNIM> TrueBrain: quite, quite 19:40:23 <Rubidium> Elukka: then why do all trucks and cars need filters because the amount of particles in the air gets too high near highways and in cities? 19:40:25 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: nothing new there :p 19:40:27 <MNIM> preferably not 19:40:39 <Rubidium> that's pretty much ash from oil 19:40:41 <MNIM> I like my lungs nuclear-dust free, thanks 19:40:42 <Elukka> i meant that a nuclear power plant causing a nuclear explosion is physically impossible, rubidium 19:40:55 <supermop> anyway, isnt there an energy policy channel somewhere? 19:41:16 <planetmaker> supermop: it's not yet on bananas, is it? 19:41:24 <MNIM> it is not, elukka. unlikely? yes. we're talking about the worst case scenario of a worst case scenario. 19:41:26 <planetmaker> got the link for me lazy? 19:41:30 <Elukka> no it's literally impossible 19:41:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: and what's your physics degree that you base your opinion on? 19:41:39 <V453000> hm I actually also thought nuclear plant cant make a nuclear explosion 19:41:48 <MNIM> no such thing is absolutely impossible. 19:42:05 <Elukka> it's extremely basic knowledge 19:42:08 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem about nuclear weapons is not how to make it explode 19:42:10 <MNIM> faster-than-sound travel was thought impossible just until six decades ago! 19:42:11 <supermop> bottom of the page: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=48605&start=80 19:42:16 <Eddi|zuHause> but how to make it explode the _right_ way 19:42:41 <planetmaker> MNIM: not quite... Sputnik was 1954. 19:42:46 <SpComb> fizz out 19:42:48 <planetmaker> hm... no 19:42:59 <Elukka> yes, NMIN, it is absolutely impossible 19:43:00 <planetmaker> 1957 19:43:13 <supermop> NML stations are absolutely impossible 19:43:17 <TrueBrain> hahaha 19:43:19 <TrueBrain> nothing is impossible 19:43:23 <TrueBrain> the impossible just take a little bit longer 19:43:25 <Kogut> it is "impossible" as in "it is not predicted by any theory that can be considered as science" 19:43:37 <planetmaker> "faster than light is impossible" ;-) 19:43:39 <Elukka> nuclear fuel is not the same stuff as what goes into a nuclear weapon 19:43:43 <TrueBrain> unless you are some all-knowing-being, you can't say it is absolutely impossible 19:43:45 *** enr1x [~kiike@62.57.225.29.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #openttd 19:43:50 <Elukka> wait are you now arguing science is all wrong 19:44:19 <supermop> again, where is the energy policy channel? 19:44:35 <TrueBrain> supermop: we don't have a policy for energy in this channel 19:44:37 <TrueBrain> I am sorry :) 19:44:44 <Kogut> well, it is possible that wearing red socks can cause invisible demons to kill aliens on Saturn 19:44:51 <Prof_Frink> supermop: Over there -->, but they're too busy nattering about some transport game they found on the interwebs. 19:45:02 <V453000> :D 19:45:14 <Kogut> but it is hard to use it as reason to not wear red socks 19:45:15 <MNIM> elukka: nope. nuclear fuel is generally lower grade, true. 19:45:25 <Elukka> it is always lower grade 19:45:36 <MNIM> what it does mean is that your margin for criticality will be higher. 19:45:51 <Elukka> criticality is what you have when a nuclear reactor is operating under normal conditions 19:45:55 <Elukka> this means there's a chain reaction 19:45:59 <Elukka> this means it makes electricity 19:46:36 <Elukka> supercriticality is probably what you mean, though fuel still can't cause a nuclear explosion 19:46:42 <Elukka> it'll easily cause a steam explosion by heating things up, though 19:46:55 <Eddi|zuHause> a nuclear power plant actually makes no electricity 19:47:02 <Eddi|zuHause> it generates heat 19:47:08 <MNIM> elukka: the difference between a nuke going boom and a nuclear plant is that this critical margin has far more space between 'no chain reaction' and 'boom' 19:47:09 <supermop> well anyway, Nuclear plants can go into ottd because there would never be a terrorist or earthquake, or rogue state to reprocess the fuel into weapons 19:47:15 <Elukka> yeah and it turns a turbine with steam it's basically a steam engine :P 19:47:31 <Elukka> what i was trying to say is 'criticality' is the normal state of an operating nuclear power plant 19:47:32 <MNIM> but there's always room for boom behind that margin 19:47:38 <Kogut> like coal plant - it also generates heat -> steam -> electricity 19:48:02 <Elukka> and... nuclear fuel cannot make a nuclear explosion 19:48:10 <Elukka> don't you think saddam and other such people would love if it could? 19:48:29 <Elukka> every two bit dictator can get nuclear fuel... but they can't get materials for nuclear weapons 19:48:30 <__ln__> saddam wouldn't, because he's dead 19:48:36 <Eddi|zuHause> btw. there's plenty of other things that can explode in a nuclear power plant besides the fuel 19:48:51 <TrueBrain> __ln__: *snap* :D 19:49:02 <TrueBrain> Elukka: define nuclear explosion ;) 19:49:17 <TrueBrain> as in chernobyl there was a lot of nuclear particles thrown in the air after an explosion .. :D 19:49:19 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: but hitler is alive and lives on the back side of the moon 19:49:41 <Elukka> yes but nothing in a plant can make a nuclear explosion 19:49:45 <V453000> yeah but chernobyl wasnt a nuclear explosion, just the steam, right? 19:49:47 <TrueBrain> it was in the plant 19:49:50 <TrueBrain> it was an explosion 19:49:55 <MNIM> elukka: they /can't/ get their hands on it, contrary to popular belief. 19:49:56 <TrueBrain> V453000: many many explosions happened in that plant :D 19:50:01 <V453000> true :D 19:50:06 <MNIM> more like D: 19:50:15 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 19:50:26 <supermop> anyway 19:50:28 <Elukka> a nuclear explosion is a very rapid nuclear chain reaction that mostly releases energy in x-rays and gamma rays (that are then absorbed by the atmosphere, causing the fireball) 19:50:29 <Prof_Frink> Nuclear energy is a lie. 19:50:35 <Elukka> it is extremely different to any other kind of explosion 19:50:35 <supermop> why are we even talking about this 19:50:46 <Prof_Frink> They just spread radiation to hide what *reall* goes on inside. 19:50:47 <Kogut> why not? 19:51:23 * andythenorth returns from the energy policy channel 19:51:32 <andythenorth> turns out they just had loads of feature requests for FIRS 19:51:34 <Elukka> yes NMIN, because weapons grade uranium/plutonium is much harder to make than fuel grade 19:51:37 <andythenorth> I left :P 19:51:39 <V453000> andythenorth: :D 19:51:45 <Prof_Frink> Get yourself a hazmat suit and go inside. 19:51:57 <MNIM> lol, andy 19:52:12 <Prof_Frink> You'll find... banks and banks of cat/toast generators. 19:52:17 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: did they at least request nuclear power stations? 19:52:24 <andythenorth> :P 19:52:37 <MNIM> elukka: I challenge you to acquire a kilo of fuel-grade uranium 19:53:09 <TrueBrain> Challenge accepted 19:53:10 <TrueBrain> :D 19:53:14 <Elukka> what. 19:53:22 <TrueBrain> you do know the CIA monitors this channel, right? 19:53:25 * TrueBrain kicks CIA-2 19:53:25 <CIA-2> ow 19:53:31 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: that's probably easy, just social-engineer you into the right university 19:53:32 <Elukka> well, several corporations have it... i suppose the best way would be to gain ownership of one 19:53:42 <andythenorth> start buying shares... 19:53:43 <Elukka> oh yeah, universities have reactors too! 19:54:10 <Elukka> there are many un-nice people in the world who would very much love it if nuclear fuel could make a nuclear explosion... and every other country would have nukes 19:54:34 *** DDR [~DDR@142.179.78.88] has joined #openttd 19:54:54 <V453000> wiki says that power plant has 2-4% uranium, bomb 95% 19:54:57 <MNIM> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_proliferation 19:55:01 <MNIM> for the record. 19:55:29 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: the problem is not uranium, but the right isotope 19:55:31 <planetmaker> supermop: the "special" tiles kinda glitch 19:55:42 <planetmaker> there's a stray roof further up on them 19:55:54 <V453000> ah, yes ... sorry 19:56:03 <Kogut> And it is possible to extract it using centrifuges 19:56:19 <MNIM> the chart on there is not complete, though 19:56:21 <Kogut> but sometimes Stuxnet happen 19:56:25 <Kogut> happens 19:56:34 <MNIM> several nato nuke-sharing countries aren't on their 19:56:35 <planetmaker> http://imagebin.org/177550 19:56:37 <MNIM> *there 19:56:38 <planetmaker> ^ supermop 19:58:05 <MNIM> also, the baltic states aren't colored, which is odd 19:58:36 *** TWerkhoven[l] [~turbulent@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:00:13 <Elukka> oh here's a fun quote from the university of pitthsburgh's site 20:00:17 <Elukka> "In 2 out of 3 melt-downs there would be no deaths, in 1 out of 5 there would be over 1000 deaths, and in 1 out of 100,000 there would be 50,000 deaths. The average for all meltdowns would be 400 deaths. Since air pollution from coal burning is estimated to be causing 10,000 deaths per year, there would have to be 25 melt-downs each year for nuclear power to be as dangerous as coal burning." 20:01:06 <Elukka> probabilistic risk analysis 20:01:32 <MNIM> /deaths/ yes. 20:01:58 *** TWerkhoven[l] [~turbulent@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 20:02:21 <MNIM> not counting disease, grave injuries, lethal, incapacitating or mutilating genetic faults caused in aftermaths over centuries. 20:02:27 <Elukka> no, that is counting everything 20:02:33 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 20:03:14 <Elukka> "There has been much misunderstanding on genetic diseases due to radiation. The risks are somewhat less than the cancer risks; for example, among the Japanese A-bomb survivors from Hiroshima and Nagasaki, there have been about 400 extra cancer deaths among the 100,000 people in the follow-up group, but there have been no extra genetic diseases among their progeny." 20:03:18 <Kogut> coal mining/burning also causes diseases, grave injuries 20:03:20 <MNIM> I would like to see the scientific tests that confirmed those 10000 deaths by coal burning though 20:04:05 <Elukka> it's surprisingly hard to find sources 20:04:06 <MNIM> whereas nuke power has the advantage that we know the condition of the planet before it started. 20:04:07 <supermop> planetmaker: the extra roofs are the point 20:04:10 <Elukka> o_O 20:04:20 <Elukka> the guardian says coal kills a hundred thousand each year 20:04:28 <MNIM> the guardian? 20:04:47 <andythenorth> guaranteed science 20:04:48 <andythenorth> :PO 20:05:10 <MNIM> hahaha 20:05:11 *** Hyronymus [~chatzilla@s53757898.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:05:29 <MNIM> journalists are not very well known for the comprehension of numbers. 20:05:36 <Elukka> the university is probably more reliable 20:05:40 <V453000> hm :( I fucking suck at making old-looking engines :( I always start making decorations to it and it starts looking modern again :| 20:05:49 <Elukka> of course it's impossible to make a certain assessment of how many people coal kills 20:06:34 <MNIM> coal burning started hundreds of years ago, before medicine was even able to cure a simple cold 20:06:49 <Elukka> the world health organization pegs the world's air pollution deaths (not just coal, this includes traffic and such) at 2 million a year 20:06:50 <MNIM> as such, you have no control group or zero measurement 20:07:12 <MNIM> which effectively means that anything you claim upon research is very, very void 20:07:17 <Elukka> yeah, no 20:07:33 <Elukka> coal burning on the current scale didn't start hundreds of years ago 20:07:49 * V453000 puts on the "As long as the beer is cheap, I am fine" opinion stance 20:08:02 <planetmaker> supermop: what's their point? Roofed tracks? 20:08:32 <V453000> I think so :) 20:08:40 <MNIM> it started during the industrial revolution, which, according to my calender at least, is several hundreds of years ago 20:09:04 <planetmaker> supermop: I think they need some additional conditions to show that roof then 20:09:25 <supermop> planetmaker: yes! for hiding yards within a building that looks like a large locomotive shed 20:09:34 <Elukka> yeah but the scale is dwarfed by what's done today 20:09:58 <planetmaker> hm.... why do I need to hide normal tracks when the train can wait in the station, too? 20:10:14 <V453000> I am wondering who is going to make a 100% covered network with it :P 20:10:25 <Elukka> i'm not really familiar with their research methods, but i wouldn't be so hasty to declare all research on the subject void as i doubt you are either 20:12:43 <MNIM> http://satwcomic.com/nuclear-power 20:12:45 <MNIM> heh 20:13:10 <supermop> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=48605 20:13:59 <Elukka> yeah, sweden is well known for its several yearly meltdowns and a huge mutant population 20:14:13 <MNIM> hehehe 20:14:33 <Eddi|zuHause> large-scale coal burning in europe started around 1800, with a peak around the 1950's 20:14:51 <Eddi|zuHause> after that, oil took over as the main energy source 20:16:27 <Elukka> in germany they seem to be about equal 20:16:39 <Elukka> hmm, still more oil 20:17:15 <MNIM> mostly brown coal dug in northwestern open mines. 20:17:20 <Elukka> the worst coal 20:17:26 <MNIM> quite 20:17:33 <Elukka> hmm... nuclear power would be kind of boring in openttd as the amounts of fuel and waste transported would be quite tiny compared to coal :P 20:17:57 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, we know that 20:18:07 <MNIM> far smaller volumes, yes. 20:18:14 <Eddi|zuHause> which is why it is not implemented. 20:18:56 <MNIM> but nuclear fuel transports require /FAR/ more measures in place than cheap coal. 20:19:26 <Eddi|zuHause> now model protesters and police protection in the game :p 20:19:41 <MNIM> nuclear transport trains are practically empty, transporting only a fraction of fuel 20:19:51 <MNIM> eddi: that's probably not a good idea. 20:20:14 <MNIM> however, the trains also carry their own army, pretty much 20:20:24 <Eddi|zuHause> people are already rallying up for the next CASTOR transport to gorleben expected in december 20:20:24 <Rubidium> MNIM: yet nuclear fuel transports are safer than say... trains filled with chlorine gas (or any other poisonous gas) 20:20:27 <MNIM> say, a wagon would transport only a single unit of nuke fuel 20:20:45 <MNIM> rubidium: quite possibly because of those measures. 20:21:11 <planetmaker> supermop: I guess I don't quite know how I should properly use them 20:21:18 <planetmaker> can you enlighten me? 20:21:18 <Rubidium> just because it's solids vs. gas 20:21:41 <MNIM> besides fuel, I would not be surprised if a large amount of what's on these wagons is decoy. 20:21:44 <MNIM> I know I would 20:22:30 <Rubidium> it's mostly lead anyway 20:22:40 <MNIM> that too. 20:22:57 <Eddi|zuHause> unspent nuclear fuel is pretty unspectacular 20:22:58 <supermop> yes, 1 second please 20:23:07 <Eddi|zuHause> spent nuclear fuel is the dangerous kind 20:23:46 <Rubidium> ah well... it all has a relatively short half life compared to me ;) 20:23:51 <MNIM> anyway, I live within biking distance of one of those dangerous lines with chemicals coming from both rotterdam and antwerpen 20:24:06 <Elukka> well, nuclear fuel isn't particularly radioactive (besides MOX) 20:24:10 <Elukka> it's the waste that's the nasty stuff 20:24:27 <Elukka> beaten to it 20:24:33 <Belugas> same as a runny nose 20:24:41 <Belugas> waste... quite nsty 20:26:04 * andythenorth considers playing the game 20:26:25 <MNIM> some cities along that line are lucky to have a bypass along their stations, but in the city I used to study the wagons with chloride in it will quite literally pass within arms reach if you are waiting on the platform 20:26:43 * TWerkhoven[l] thinks andy should 20:27:02 <MNIM> most goods transport happens overnight, but still, the railway passes right next to the city center 20:27:59 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: and out of 10.000 such transports, how many explode and contaminate a 30km area, rendering it uninhabitable for at least 500 years? 20:28:18 <MNIM> not a lot, fortunately. 20:28:34 <MNIM> considering Id be pretty fucked in that case 20:31:55 * andythenorth tries to remember what silly patch Eddi|zuHause wrote for him recently 20:32:11 <Eddi|zuHause> "daylength" 20:32:17 <andythenorth> he 20:32:18 <andythenorth> yes 20:32:25 <andythenorth> it's genius 20:32:31 <andythenorth> my game is still interesting 20:32:34 <Eddi|zuHause> or actually, "yearlength" 20:32:39 <andythenorth> :P 20:32:56 <Eddi|zuHause> just avoid the year 2050 20:32:57 <MNIM> anyway, I think nuke transport would be kinda interesting in ottd. 20:32:59 <andythenorth> I do have totally insane amounts of cargo waiting due to FIRS station rating modification 20:33:39 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: there are no war materials in the game. 20:33:52 <MNIM> eh, I meant nuke as in nuclear fuel 20:34:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i think RRT had war materials 20:34:01 <MNIM> my bad, I was being lazy :P 20:34:27 <andythenorth> hmm 20:34:37 * andythenorth needs a new map colour for industry 20:34:40 <andythenorth> blearch 20:34:40 <MNIM> anyway, the chain would look something like this: 20:34:53 <andythenorth> uranium mine 20:34:57 <andythenorth> fuel processor 20:35:01 <andythenorth> power plant 20:35:01 <MNIM> Uranium mine ==> enrichment plant ==> power plant 20:35:04 <andythenorth> repository 20:35:13 <MNIM> ==> waste processing plant 20:35:14 <andythenorth> it's an old idea :) 20:35:17 <andythenorth> much discussed 20:35:26 <andythenorth> I ruled it out of main FIRS 20:35:48 <andythenorth> the main problem was gameplay: it would only need a delivery about once every 12 months :P 20:35:57 <V453000> :d 20:36:22 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: the game is not prepared to handle infrequent small-amount services 20:36:30 <MNIM> andy: decrease wagon capacity? one wagon = one fuel unit 20:36:32 <supermop> power plants dont make sense in tt until they can affect the growth/production of towns and industries 20:37:00 <supermop> planetmaker: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=48681 20:37:03 <TWerkhoven[l]> since when is tt about making sense? 20:37:06 <Eddi|zuHause> power plants were completely removed from FIRS 20:37:24 <andythenorth> that was because there is no point dropping coal or fuel oil into them 20:37:30 <supermop> the idea came about in spring 2010 20:37:38 <andythenorth> nuclear is a valid add-on to FIRS, but we're out of cargos 20:38:00 <planetmaker> supermop: the screenshots don't show to me the need for tiles which cover an adjacent tile 20:38:00 <supermop> as a way to create eye candy depots that worked 'better' 20:38:23 <supermop> so you can have things like switches and signal 'inside' 20:38:42 <Rubidium> andythenorth: just stuffify everything ;) 20:39:21 <planetmaker> hm, switches and signals 20:39:50 <andythenorth> planetmaker: any idea where they industry map colours are defined in nml firs? 20:39:52 <supermop> so that a 3 tile wide shed is actually a depot that can have multiple entries, and can stable trains waiting to enter the depot or leave for the mainline 20:40:16 <Elukka> huh. 20:40:20 <Elukka> you removed coal power plants? 20:40:23 <planetmaker> hm, I see now, supermop 20:40:25 *** KritiK [~Maxim@89-178-77-41.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 20:40:43 <V453000> Elukka: they used coal anyway :P 20:40:51 <andythenorth> planetmaker: nvm, found them :) 20:40:56 <andythenorth> they're in the action 0 20:41:14 <planetmaker> grep for them to get a list, andythenorth ;-) 20:41:26 <andythenorth> they were a set of defines in nfo 20:41:29 <planetmaker> grep -Ri "propertyname" sprites/nml/industries/*.pnml 20:41:38 <Kogut> I hate bitfields 20:41:41 <andythenorth> defines might be overkill, but made it easy to check colours used 20:42:11 <planetmaker> you could use defines again. If it helps 20:42:23 <planetmaker> not sure, though :-) 20:43:16 *** FHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 20:44:07 <planetmaker> supermop: motivationally I probably should not say it: personally I'd stick to the per-tile station-tiles. Using the special ones requires too much thought during building :-) 20:45:12 <planetmaker> but personally I never tried to build a station like you show in your usage examples either 20:45:25 <planetmaker> so that might be 90% of the explanation :-) 20:46:00 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-107-46.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 20:47:22 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:48:04 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 20:50:19 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-142-31.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:50:49 <supermop> i never wanted to until i had this idea! 20:53:28 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-107-46.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Quit: c('~' )o] 20:54:07 *** JVassie [~James@2.27.105.86] has joined #openttd 20:56:01 <andythenorth> hmm 20:56:12 <andythenorth> I can't find anything to upgrade HEQS log trucks to :P 20:56:23 <andythenorth> they start like this: http://www.forestechequipmentltd.com/details.aspx?iid=578 20:56:26 <andythenorth> and they remain like that :P 20:56:54 <planetmaker> needs an earlier model? 20:57:11 <Kogut> My patch is WORKING! 20:57:23 <Kogut> I am shocked 20:57:33 <andythenorth> planetmaker: yeah, probably 20:57:45 <andythenorth> there is a long gap before they are available 20:59:00 <Eddi|zuHause> well, historically, wood was often gathered by narrow gauge trains 20:59:09 <andythenorth> got that covered 20:59:23 <planetmaker> trams :-) 20:59:41 <planetmaker> bed time. good night 21:00:02 <Eddi|zuHause> CETS will contain two-part log wagons :) 21:00:23 <planetmaker> he :-) 21:00:23 <z-MaTRiX> another approach 21:00:28 <z-MaTRiX> p=printf\ ;a="The Matrix has you...";while [ "$a" ];do $p\%c "$a";a=${a:1};usleep $(($RANDOM*20));done;$p\n 21:00:32 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-178-004-177-154.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.] 21:01:15 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-86-49-123-120.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:01:35 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:03:53 *** TWerkhoven[l] [~turbulent@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:05:13 <Kogut> good night 21:07:10 <MNIM> augh, something is eating my cpu and it is pissing me off to no end 21:07:25 <andythenorth> good night 21:07:30 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 21:09:46 <frosch123> night 21:09:50 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f55a3.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:10:36 *** TWerkhoven [~Turbulent@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:12:09 *** MINM [~mBuntu@ip5452ffad.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #openttd 21:12:09 *** MNIM [~mBuntu@ip5452ffad.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:26:21 *** FHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has left #openttd [] 21:30:03 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1AD34.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:31:18 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-86-31-202-169.oxfd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 21:32:26 *** AD [wilberforc@drinks.mountaindew.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:37:47 *** Kogut [d586afe1@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 21:37:53 *** AD [wilberforc@drinks.mountaindew.org] has joined #openttd 21:38:26 *** AD is now known as Guest12658 21:39:25 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:45:07 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-88-242.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:53:15 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-86-31-202-169.oxfd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 8.0/20110928060149]] 21:57:12 *** MrSieb [~01Mr@chello062178128065.5.13.vie.surfer.at] has joined #openttd 22:04:21 *** Guest12658 [wilberforc@drinks.mountaindew.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:04:43 <Eddi|zuHause> http://www.rbd-breslau.de/16-triebwagen/eb-001.jpg <-- that is a seriously weird construction 22:06:47 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 22:09:28 *** AD_ [wilberforc@drinks.mountaindew.org] has joined #openttd 22:11:14 <Elukka> whuh. 22:11:15 <Elukka> yes it is 22:11:56 <Eddi|zuHause> that was intended for the berlin S-Bahn, before they decided to go DC instead of AC 22:12:23 <Elukka> so they took the compartment coaches and attached an engine to the end of one 22:12:49 <Eddi|zuHause> yep 22:13:30 <Eddi|zuHause> the early prussian electric engines also consisted of such units underneath 22:16:20 <Eddi|zuHause> (in slightly larger variants) 22:16:54 <Eddi|zuHause> like these monsters http://www.rbd-breslau.de/12-elloks/e91_40.html 22:23:44 <Wolf01> 'night 22:23:52 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host64-51-dynamic.15-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 22:26:04 *** KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-8-68-209.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:28:00 <Elukka> http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/auditrain.jpg 22:28:03 <Elukka> the cheapest train :P 22:33:37 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:34:01 <Eddi|zuHause> that must be a dutch invention :p 22:34:18 <Elukka> top gear, very british 22:34:26 <MINM> duh. 22:34:31 <MINM> why dutch? :S 22:35:10 <Eddi|zuHause> obviously because "caravan" and "dutch" are immediate associations ;) 22:42:04 <MINM> ...lol 22:42:20 <MINM> actually, down here, we will sooner think of germans 22:43:09 <MINM> well, indirectly, since caravan = tourist = german 22:45:15 <michi_cc> Terkhen: Not sue what you want to do with subsidies, but if you need town acceptance/production: http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/git/yacd.git/commitdiff/d2d24d29b44189e32a6e27c978cf5d36cd224c6e (+ previous commit) 22:47:46 <Elukka> http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/trains-1.jpg 22:47:49 <Elukka> sometimes trains have breakdowns 22:48:19 <MINM> ...expectable 22:48:25 <Eddi|zuHause> that does not look good 23:03:17 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has left #openttd [] 23:10:47 *** JVassie [~James@2.27.105.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:17:53 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 23:18:31 *** George|2 [~George@212.113.107.39] has joined #openttd 23:18:31 *** George is now known as Guest12675 23:18:31 *** George|2 is now known as George 23:22:22 *** Guest12675 [~George@212.113.107.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:41:34 *** KritiK [~Maxim@89-178-77-41.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:42:31 <__ln__> what's the probability that at least 40 out of 60 randomly guessed answers to true/false questions are correct? 23:47:32 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:49:36 <__ln__> http://www.apple.com/stevejobs/ 23:49:46 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 23:55:08 *** enr1x [~kiike@62.57.225.29.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]