Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:02:59 *** supermop_ [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 00:04:00 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-044-189.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 00:06:03 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: if you give me a 10DM bill, i can tell you ;) 00:07:55 <__ln__> so the euro has finally lost its value 00:08:42 <Eddi|zuHause> no. but the 10DM bill had Gauss and the formula for the normal distribution on it 00:10:01 <__ln__> i was kind of thinking of Gauss, but i thought he was on 100DM or something 00:11:18 <Eddi|zuHause> http://www.didaktik.mathematik.uni-wuerzburg.de/history/ausstell/gauss/gauss_10DM.jpg 00:11:54 <Eddi|zuHause> but on this image, the resolution is not high enough 00:13:13 <supermop_> the moire patterns on that forehead are a bit disconcerting 00:14:44 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the scanner's fault 00:15:11 <Eddi|zuHause> this is a more high res image: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/DEU-10m-anv.jpg 00:16:26 <supermop_> ok now i need a really good printer and a bunch of cotton paper 00:16:39 <supermop_> they still accept marks for euros right? 00:16:53 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but only at central banks 00:40:24 *** Vettel [~Zeknurn@hd9483b29.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 00:41:47 *** xORR [xor@the.x-base.org] has joined #openttd 00:44:56 *** Netsplit reticulum.oftc.net <-> kilo.oftc.net quits: eQualizer, DabuYu, TrueBrain, tneo, tty234, V453000, jpx_, avdg, @peter1138, Zeknurn, (+5 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 00:44:56 *** Vettel is now known as Zeknurn 00:44:57 *** xORR is now known as xQR 00:45:56 *** Netsplit over, joins: tneo 00:46:05 *** Netsplit over, joins: snorre_, avdg, V453000, jpx_, TrueBrain, tty234, DabuYu, Fuco, @peter1138, Noldo (+2 more) 00:46:05 *** V453000 [~V453000@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:46:08 <Eddi|zuHause> traffic light in ulaan baator (capital of mongolia): http://einestages.spiegel.de/hund-images/2011/10/04/7/6ce89a52343eb2666534cda7539fea72_image_document_large_featured_borderless.jpg 00:46:11 *** mode/#openttd [+v peter1138] by ChanServ 00:46:49 *** V453000 [~V453000@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 00:47:53 <__ln__> great 00:50:44 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 01:08:14 *** Biolunar_ [~mahdi@blfd-4db1a688.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 01:15:18 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4d08ea7d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:20:56 *** z-MaTRiX [~matrix@index.linuxsecured.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:01:13 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:41ed:b64c:ea5d:79b9] has quit [Quit: bye] 02:16:52 *** Biolunar_ [~mahdi@blfd-4db1a688.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us!] 02:26:09 *** rhaeder [~quix0r@dslb-094-220-137-006.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 02:31:57 *** rhaeder1 [~quix0r@dslb-188-109-249-154.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:40:20 *** Elukka [Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:41:15 *** Elukka [Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 02:57:13 *** DDR [~DDR@142.179.78.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:06:20 *** DDR [~DDR@142.179.78.88] has joined #openttd 04:09:05 *** supermop_ [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:38:02 *** z-MaTRiX [~matrix@index.linuxsecured.net] has joined #openttd 04:38:14 *** z-MaTRiX [~matrix@index.linuxsecured.net] has quit [] 04:38:55 *** z-MaTRiX [~matrix@index.linuxsecured.net] has joined #openttd 04:39:28 <z-MaTRiX> hey 04:41:14 *** Pawz [~chatzilla@203-59-135-71.perm.iinet.net.au] has joined #openttd 04:43:28 <Pawz> hello people 04:44:36 <Pawz> does anyone here have a copy of FIRS that works with the 32bbp + Extra zoom levels? 04:49:38 <Pawz> it's unfortunately difficult to find all the bits and pieces of things to get 'em all working together 04:56:02 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B73878.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:56:23 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B732AE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 05:00:04 <planetmaker> Pawz: there's no reason FIRS should not work with 32bpp or extra zoom 05:00:14 <planetmaker> Unless of course, if that binary is too old 05:00:31 <planetmaker> where then FIRS 0.6.4 as from bananas should still work 05:00:36 <planetmaker> and good morning :-) 05:03:18 <Pawz> howdy :) It's not quite that it's not working, it's just that I've got this odd issue where I end up with duplicates of the road vehicles - like 2 regal busses (one 32bpp one not) 05:04:38 <planetmaker> which is totally unrelated to FIRS 05:04:56 <Pawz> is it? hm 05:05:08 <planetmaker> and probably rather related to something like "old vehicles, new cargos" Newgrf or similar 05:05:20 <Pawz> OpenGFX+ Road Vehicles perhaps? 05:05:29 <planetmaker> of course. FIRS is industries and cargos. Not vehicles 05:05:47 <Pawz> does FIRS update vehicles with the new cargo types ? 05:05:52 <planetmaker> no 05:06:13 <planetmaker> and never will 05:07:31 <Pawz> ok... but you need some vehicles to transport the new goods 05:08:35 <Pawz> so for example I grabbed the 'ECS & FIRS original vehicle set' grf, which seemed to do that 05:08:52 <planetmaker> yes, that'll be the newgrf which causes double vehicles 05:09:34 <Pawz> am I going about this the wrong way then? 05:09:54 <Pawz> or do I just have to give up on 32bpp 05:10:26 <Pawz> when it works, it looks amazing though 05:10:28 <planetmaker> I don't know that NewGRF. But I know only one vehicle set which provides vehicles in 32bpp 05:10:42 <planetmaker> which is grvts 05:10:53 <planetmaker> (not egrvts) 05:11:35 * Pawz cancels egrvts 05:11:36 <Pawz> heh 05:12:22 <Pawz> grvts doesn't show up as an online newgrf 05:12:28 <planetmaker> it isn't 05:12:29 <Elukka> sets that don't have 32bpp sprites should still work, just, well, it won't have 32bpp sprites 05:12:43 <planetmaker> and yes, the sets should ALL work 05:12:56 <planetmaker> just the sprites will show in the usual 8bpp 05:12:59 <Pawz> yeah, just the duplicated vehicles thing 05:13:19 <planetmaker> Pawz: that's the result of *one* vehicle NewGRF which does re-define the original vehicles 05:13:46 <Pawz> mhm, so I'm looking for a way to have FIRS cargos, on 32bpp trucks! 05:13:49 <planetmaker> did you try starting a new game without this ecs and firs original vehicle newgrf? 05:13:51 <Pawz> :) 05:13:52 *** mib_ji5sws [43a96030@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 05:14:00 <planetmaker> Pawz: that does not exist 05:14:09 <mib_ji5sws> hey guys 05:14:12 <mib_ji5sws> i have a question... 05:14:18 <Pawz> hm. poop. 05:14:23 <planetmaker> neither FIRS is 32bpp nor are there vehicles with all those cargos in 32bpp 05:14:26 <mib_ji5sws> lets say I have a website. I can embed a youtube video in it. 05:14:35 <planetmaker> it all will work on 32bpp though 05:14:43 <planetmaker> just not use that many colours 05:14:49 <Pawz> yeah, I can get it working fine without the high res vehicles 05:14:49 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd 05:14:57 <mib_ji5sws> In fact, I could embed multiple youtube videos in it. So that if someone opened the original link, all of those youtube videos' views would increase by 1, correct? 05:15:09 <Elukka> incidentally, is higher resolution sprites a feature of 32bpp or extra zoom levels? 05:15:11 <mib_ji5sws> Is there anyway I can embed a website within another website? 05:15:16 <Pawz> extra zoom levels 05:15:16 *** mib_ji5sws is now known as Anwar 05:15:20 <Elukka> i don't mean actually zooming in more, just the 32bpp sprites seem to be much higher resolution 05:15:32 <Pawz> well, yeah they look nicer at standard zoom 05:15:42 <planetmaker> Elukka: it's a common mis-conception that 32bpp requires the extra-zoom binary or patch. 05:15:48 <planetmaker> normal openttd supports 32bpp 05:16:16 <Elukka> yeah i know 05:17:03 <Pawz> time to try the dev nightly 32bpp build 05:17:05 <Anwar> My question: 05:17:05 <Anwar> Hey guys. I can embed multiple videos to a site, so that if someone opens the site, the videos' views increase by one for every video. Is there any way I can embed a website into another website, so that if someone visits the original website, the embedded website is requested and displayed on it as well? Thanks. 05:17:14 <Pawz> since the standard one seems to have hardly anything in it 05:17:20 <Elukka> http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=123792 05:17:21 <Elukka> http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=123792 05:17:31 <Elukka> what i mean is the 32bpp sprite obviously has way more resolution 05:17:43 <Pawz> yeah it looks awesome 05:17:44 <Elukka> err, and i linked the same thing twice it seems :P 05:18:29 <Elukka> so... without extra zoom levels, would the 32bpp sprite look like that or would it be as pixelated as the 8 bit sprite+ 05:18:42 *** Anwar [43a96030@ircip3.mibbit.com] has left #openttd [] 05:19:41 <Pawz> it would look a lot better 05:19:54 <Pawz> you can tell right away with the new sprites 05:21:10 <Pawz> I can post a screenshot somewhere if you like 05:24:53 <Pawz> of course now I've screwed up my copy somehow -_- 05:27:10 <Elukka> i know what it looks like with extra zoom levels, but i'm curious how it looks without it 05:27:15 <Elukka> guess i could just go try grvts 05:29:54 <Pawz> does anyone have a compilation pack of 32bit sprites somewhere? 05:30:30 <Pawz> I don't mean a perfectly complete one, just one that is 'everything currently made / in progress' 05:32:05 <Pawz> hmm wonder what happens if you unpack the sprite folder outta the tars 05:33:50 <Pawz> huh. lookit that it works. Guess that would solve issues with tars over writing each other. maybe. 05:34:36 <Pawz> whoever did the 32 bit menu did a great job 05:37:27 <planetmaker> zephyris probably ;-) 05:39:07 <Elukka> i would like to play with 32bpp, but it looks so out of place unless everything is 32bpp... 05:39:32 <Elukka> if there was a 32bpp base set i think grf artists would be much more inclined for making 32bpp sprites 05:40:20 <Pawz> I found a wiki entry about a 32bpp base set 05:40:32 <Pawz> But it didn't say much 05:40:51 <Elukka> as far as i know nobody's really making one 05:40:54 <Pawz> Is there somewhere that lists all the sprites in the game? 05:41:31 <Elukka> not sure 05:41:40 <Elukka> either way it'd be just shy of 7000 sprites to draw 05:42:00 <Pawz> tough part at the moment seems to be finding all the sprites already done 05:42:22 <Pawz> Wonder what the OpenGFX guys used 05:42:43 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 05:43:17 <Elukka> well it was a well-concerted effort with fancy tracking tables and devzone stuff 05:43:40 <Elukka> i wish there was a 32bpp base set project but i don't feel inclined to make one :P 05:46:29 <Pawz> I'd be happy with someone who's got all the 32bpp sprites posting their data folder :) 05:47:18 <Pawz> I have yet to find any game even close to OpenTTD in terms of game mechanics 05:47:39 <Pawz> it's just that on 1920 x1200 it gets a little too small 05:48:21 <Elukka> i agree 05:48:51 <Elukka> even just an extra zoom level without new sprites would be nice 05:49:10 <Pawz> well, have you tried the extra zoom binaries? 05:49:12 <Elukka> sure, things would be more pixelated but whatever 05:49:25 <Elukka> from what i've seen the extra zoom level patch makes old sprites blurry 05:49:52 <Pawz> well, blurry / pixelated, similar effect 05:50:10 <Elukka> i dunno 05:50:11 <Elukka> http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Art%20and%20stuff/4_abteilwagen.png 05:50:14 <Elukka> i'd much rather have that than blur 05:50:30 <Elukka> that's a normal resolution 8 bit sprite at 200% zoom 05:51:04 <Pawz> well, it's not quite blur 05:51:18 <Pawz> it's some kind of 'round off the edges' algorithm they've got going 05:51:32 <Elukka> there's different zoom algorithms... browsers tend to do the blurry thing, graphics programs dont' 05:51:43 <Elukka> i think the blur in extra zoom levels looks awful 05:54:16 <Terkhen> good morning 05:54:23 <Terkhen> Pawz: http://mz.openttdcoop.org/opengfx/authors/script.php?feature=spritesbyfile&q=ogfx1_base 05:54:36 <planetmaker> moin Terkhen 05:54:56 <Pawz> http://tinypic.com/r/244y2p2/7 05:55:07 <planetmaker> Elukka: do you draw cets in 32bpp? 05:55:10 <Pawz> there you go Elukka that's at the next zoom level 05:55:33 <Elukka> planetmaker, nah 05:55:34 <Terkhen> 32bpp with 8bpp looks out of place, yes 05:57:45 <Pawz> terkhen that's pretty comprehensive! 05:58:03 <Elukka> humh. that doesn't have the kind of blur i thought it had 05:58:09 <Elukka> might be i've only seen ancient screenshots 05:58:43 <Pawz> you can see in there the difference the 32bpp makes 05:58:47 <Pawz> with proper zoom levels 05:58:54 <Elukka> yeah 05:58:59 *** Pawz [~chatzilla@203-59-135-71.perm.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:59:09 <Elukka> planetmaker, that file probably isn't indexed since it's just a WIP shot, but i draw using the palette 05:59:11 <Elukka> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/1948/pr_4_abteilwagen_3kl_10lu.png 05:59:13 <Elukka> that's the actual game version 05:59:38 *** Pawz [~chatzilla@203-59-135-71.perm.iinet.net.au] has joined #openttd 05:59:44 <Pawz> lol that page just made firefox crash 06:00:56 <Pawz> so, is there anyone still active who maintains those scripts Terkhen? How hard would it be to get the source and/or add a column for 32 bit? 06:03:12 <planetmaker> just use a slightly different link... http://mz.openttdcoop.org/opengfx/newgrf.php?1=2633:2691 06:03:15 <Pawz> or is it just insane to think about organising 'em 06:03:27 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:04:07 <planetmaker> but I'm not sure how up to date the 32bpp part is 06:04:25 <planetmaker> those people develop the stuff elsewhere 06:05:29 <Pawz> is that built from a repository somewhere? 06:06:57 <planetmaker> yes 06:07:19 <Pawz> same one as the jupix one? 06:07:45 <planetmaker> no :-) http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/opengfx and ... 06:09:05 <planetmaker> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/32bpp 06:09:35 <planetmaker> not sure they use a vcs on jupix server really 06:10:01 <planetmaker> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/32bpp-extra <-- I meant that :-) 06:10:10 <Pawz> yeah found that one :) 06:10:45 <planetmaker> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/opengfx32bpp <-- or that? Dunno :-) 06:10:46 <appe> i guess you didnt miss the news about steve jobs. 06:11:00 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 06:11:05 <planetmaker> hard to miss 06:14:04 <Pawz> farkles, there's TWO wikis lol 06:15:26 <Pawz> it's like poking a bag that things keep falling out of 06:15:38 <Pawz> in a good way 06:15:45 <planetmaker> two wikis? 06:16:00 <planetmaker> hundrets! ;-) 06:16:16 <Pawz> well, there's the whole openTTD thing and then the openTTDCoop 06:16:35 <planetmaker> oh, sure 06:17:05 <planetmaker> but why shouldn't? 06:17:12 <planetmaker> it's two different things ;-) 06:17:23 <planetmaker> one for the game. And one for a particular gaming community ;-) 06:18:38 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@027af076.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:20:07 <Pawz> and the gaming community hosts the graphics project for the game 06:20:45 <planetmaker> ah... well. you mean OpenGFX? 06:21:11 <planetmaker> yes. The DevZone evolved quite well :-) 06:22:07 <Pawz> well, colour me impressed all around :) 06:22:39 <planetmaker> Reason might be that it was easier for me to setup things on my server when I started working on the graphics project ;-) 06:23:06 <appe> propellerheads reason <3. 06:23:13 <peter1138> i guess when we 'adopted' opengfx, there was no particular need to move any of its working development process... 06:24:08 <Pawz> Is there perhaps more information than the standard openttd wiki for creating sprites? 06:24:22 <planetmaker> there are two more wikis ;-) 06:24:30 <Pawz> Like, say, a 3dsmax file with all the standard tiles... oh dear 06:24:44 <Pawz> you weren't kidding about the 'hundrets and hundrets' were you 06:24:45 <Pawz> lol 06:24:49 <peter1138> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/ :D 06:25:02 <planetmaker> http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Tutorials and http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Main or http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Main_Page 06:25:05 <peter1138> i'm not sure why it's separate 06:25:24 <peter1138> possibly because the remaining ttdpatch user doesn't want newgrf to be too associated with openttd... 06:25:47 <planetmaker> well. NewGRF specs being separate makes sense. Somewhat 06:25:54 <Pawz> only one of those eh? :) 06:26:03 <planetmaker> no. all of those 06:26:14 <planetmaker> :-) 06:26:36 <Elukka> "TTD internally uses a 3D engine, which then uses an isometric projection to display graphics on a 2D screen." 06:26:39 <Elukka> it... runs a 3D engine? 06:26:41 <planetmaker> Pawz: and it proves usually quite helpful to look at existing newgrf projects 06:26:52 <Elukka> i suppose the graphics engine is 2D? 06:26:53 <planetmaker> you find many on the devzone again. 06:27:04 <planetmaker> it's pure 2D, Elukka. or 2.5D 06:27:06 <Elukka> or could you really just unlock the camera and move around in a (very flat) world? 06:27:08 <Elukka> i see 06:27:32 <Terkhen> Elukka: where did you find that text? :P 06:27:38 <Elukka> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/PalettesAndCoordinates#Coordinates 06:27:57 <peter1138> some parts have 3D coordinates 06:28:05 <peter1138> that doesn't really make it a 3D engine 06:28:06 <planetmaker> hence 2.5D ;-) 06:28:23 <Elukka> yeah, i thought it was a 2D engine 06:28:28 <Elukka> i suppose the wiki is a bit wrong 06:28:29 <Terkhen> I wouldn't call an engine that uses bounding boxes "3D engine" :P 06:28:52 <planetmaker> o_O That was the last place I expected such statement 06:30:03 <Pawz> oddly enough I crossed paths with that page yesterday and thought the same thing 06:39:10 <Pawz> planetmaker is there a root page for that script with the 32bpp graphics? 06:39:59 <Pawz> I'm basically trying to find somewhere I can pick a sprite and 'upgrade' it to 32bpp 06:40:11 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:40:31 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 06:41:11 <Terkhen> Pawz: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=42293 <--- that is the thread of the may 32bpp project... I would prefer it if they were sprite-oriented instead of pack oriented, though 06:41:16 <Terkhen> s/may/main/ 06:41:39 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 06:42:39 <planetmaker> I still think the project might profit from using one repo. And just starting to use one license instead of many. And that's it. 06:42:52 <Pawz> Terken: Is that seperate from the http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/32bpp project? 06:42:58 <Pawz> it seems scattered between a few places 06:43:52 <Terkhen> Pawz: I don't know much about the project, sorry 06:43:53 <planetmaker> Pawz: you found one of the things which hinder progress there ;-) 06:43:58 <Terkhen> but ^ 06:45:00 <Pawz> ok.. then.. planetmaker.. what if someone were to say, grab all the stuff from the jupix repo and break it down by sprite and upload it to the 32bpp project? 06:45:11 <Terkhen> you will be hindered by different licenses 06:45:18 <planetmaker> I'd probably make an OpenGFX clone, call it OpenGFX-32bpp and bundle the 32bpp files on top 06:45:23 <planetmaker> in a new project 06:45:44 <planetmaker> and look for gpl sprites only 06:45:57 <Terkhen> I'd create a new project, with a license decided from the very beginning and start asking authors for their permission to relicense 06:46:03 <Terkhen> otherwise it will be a nightmare :P 06:46:08 <planetmaker> and I'm not exactly sure how it's organized on jupix' server 06:46:16 <Terkhen> note that I don't know if the current project has done that relicense task 06:47:31 <planetmaker> I just know there's still stuff with different licenses 06:47:51 *** norbert79 [~Norbi@deibp9eh1--blueice2n2.emea.ibm.com] has joined #openttd 06:47:54 <planetmaker> but in which bundles or when and where... dunno 06:48:54 <planetmaker> Pawz: but in principle that's what one could do - as long as one minds the license of the graphics and only uses those which on may 06:49:49 <Pawz> Planetmaker: alright. Where do the images come from in that script you gave me ? 06:51:26 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:51:44 <Pawz> since the only successful way to do this would be to have a proper repository that compared the base sprites to the 32bpp 06:52:02 <Pawz> which *looks* like what you've got already 06:52:47 <planetmaker> hm, I'd have said it comes from the 32bpp project http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/32bpp 06:52:53 <planetmaker> but I wonder about the repo... 06:55:06 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has joined #openttd 06:55:15 <Pawz> is that seperate from what Jupix is doing? 06:55:36 <Pawz> That thread seems to indicate he's running some kind of 32bpp base conversion project 06:55:43 <planetmaker> I don't quite know 06:56:10 <Terkhen> that project is managed by GeekToo and IIRC he was the one updating the extra-zoom patch 06:56:27 <planetmaker> yes 06:58:00 <Pawz> ok so we're definitely talking two overlapping projects 06:58:17 <Pawz> the sprite based approach seems much cleaner though 06:59:35 <planetmaker> well, it's definitely at least in parts done by the same people iirc 06:59:48 <Terkhen> and IMO we need a project geared towars creating a 32bpp base set, not a project that aims to help with 32bpp pack distribution 07:00:09 <peter1138> last time i looked at 32bpp they were all distracted by ugly mismatching extra zoom sprites... 07:00:30 <Terkhen> yes, extra zoom could come later, once that a base set is working 07:00:37 <Terkhen> that would increase the interest in extra zoom 07:00:38 <planetmaker> yes, definitely 07:00:58 <Pawz> I suppose the difficulty there is that once you've got a 3d model rendered it's dead simple to make more zoom levels 07:01:00 <planetmaker> one big backdraw though: 32bpp cannot be distributed yet via bananas 07:01:10 <planetmaker> Pawz: probably 07:01:26 <peter1138> only because there's nothing to distribute yet, therefore it was never written... 07:01:35 <planetmaker> of course :-) 07:02:42 <planetmaker> someone got the download link for the current 32bpp sprites at hand? 07:02:49 <Pawz> har 07:02:53 <Pawz> that's what got me started on this 07:03:08 <Pawz> there IS no link for the current ones 07:03:12 <planetmaker> :-) 07:03:25 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #openttd 07:03:26 <peter1138> if only i could draw... 07:03:39 <Pawz> I can draw 07:03:45 <Pawz> if I knew what I needed to draw 07:03:51 <peter1138> one other problem they have is they try to perfect every single sprite they do 07:04:09 <Pawz> hey you gotta admit the sprites they DO have look amazing 07:04:16 <peter1138> yes, individually 07:04:23 <planetmaker> but not all-together 07:04:38 <planetmaker> there's (also) different styles 07:05:32 <planetmaker> hm... with those sprites I have not even all ground tiles seem done... :S 07:05:44 <peter1138> open up opengfx to see what needs to be drawn :) 07:05:44 <planetmaker> looks ugly this way 07:06:33 <planetmaker> uh? 07:06:47 <planetmaker> http://imagebin.org/177618 07:07:11 <peter1138> what happened there? 07:07:28 <planetmaker> I just use the 32bpp-anim blitter :-) 07:07:30 <planetmaker> Nothing more 07:07:44 <peter1138> oh right, unfinished 32bpp stuff :p 07:08:00 <planetmaker> and as such the 32bpp sprites which I could find. I got the pack from jupix site one? two? weeks ago 07:08:25 <peter1138> the roads look odd :S 07:08:35 *** Elukka [Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 07:09:10 <planetmaker> http://jupix.info/openttd/gfxdev-nightlies/ <-- Pawz that's where I got the stuff and which is currently the official download link iirc 07:09:35 <Pawz> ^ yeah that link gives you 27 tars 07:09:40 <Pawz> well, compiled from 27 07:09:45 <peter1138> that's... ugh 07:09:53 <Pawz> the dev one is like 100+ 07:10:57 <Pawz> and is about 65mb :) 07:11:46 <planetmaker> Pawz: but then, use that tar, see what is missing ingame and you know what needs drawing :-) 07:12:15 <planetmaker> and my 8bpp shores are nicer :-P 07:13:19 <planetmaker> (I dislike shores straight as a ruler) 07:13:51 <Pawz> Well, what stops me is that I *know* there's some more stuff out there (like fences!) that isn't showing up in the nightly dev build and I can't remember where the heck I found it in the first place 07:14:04 <Pawz> since at first I was like 'hey cool, I can make a fence, that's easy' 07:14:24 <Pawz> and then the organisation expedition began :) 07:14:42 <Pawz> Which brings me back to the question of where the heck are those nice sprites you show in your PHP script? :) 07:15:46 <Pawz> some of them exist here.. hmm 07:17:05 <planetmaker> :-) If I knew exactly, I'd have told you 07:18:02 <planetmaker> they are sure all part of *some* 32bpp pack 07:18:16 <planetmaker> probably even an extra-zoom pack as they're twice the required size 07:19:32 <Pawz> yeah plus the script has the extra zoom levels 07:19:59 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:20:28 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:22:01 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 07:26:58 *** DayDreamer1 [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 07:26:58 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:33:23 *** DDR [~DDR@142.179.78.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:33:59 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-044-189.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 07:34:31 <Pawz> planetmaker: is there a root page for this script? http://mz.openttdcoop.org/opengfx/newgrf.php?1=1600:1700 07:37:52 <planetmaker> not directly. I thought it was from the OpenGFX project. But that's slightly different 07:38:34 <Pawz> i think i found it! 07:38:36 <Pawz> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/opengfx32bpp 07:40:32 *** DayDreamer1 [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:40:50 <Ammler> those are not related, as I setup the php script, I imported some 32bpp tars, those were never updated 07:41:28 <Ammler> only the opengfx sprites are linked to nightly, the rest is static 07:41:44 <Ammler> (and maybe 3 years old) 07:44:04 *** DDR [~DDR@142.179.78.88] has joined #openttd 07:45:29 <planetmaker> Ammler: maybe we just start a 32bpp nightly? :-) 07:45:42 <planetmaker> All gpl, no frills, normal zoom only? 07:45:58 <Pawz> may as well add the option for all zoom levels eh 07:46:24 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd 07:46:34 <planetmaker> maybe 07:46:55 <planetmaker> but the zoom-levels patch as is has serious short-comings 07:47:06 <Ammler> planetmaker: baseset? 07:47:33 <planetmaker> Yes, sorta. Like take OpenGFX and put on 32bpp sprites where available 07:47:48 <planetmaker> and kinda use the 32bpp-extra for the extra grf 07:47:52 <Ammler> yes, but then we first should convert to nml 07:47:55 <planetmaker> yes 07:48:10 <planetmaker> we should indeed. Easier in that case 07:48:16 <Pawz> the patch may have shortcomings, but the core concept is a good one 07:48:33 <planetmaker> let's say: the idea: yes 07:48:36 <Ammler> well, nml is the only tool which supports 32bpp 07:48:43 <Ammler> so required imo 07:48:46 <planetmaker> yes. though there's pngcodec 07:48:58 <planetmaker> but doing it in NML is much nicer / easier and all 07:49:00 <Ammler> I would not call that a tool :-P 07:49:13 <planetmaker> it's a tool like nforenum and grfcodec 07:49:25 <planetmaker> it's the assembler for 32bpp where nml is the "c" ;-) 07:49:57 <planetmaker> so... would I need nml support for OpenGFX, eh? 07:50:08 <planetmaker> or we (first) start an NML branch for OpenGFX 07:50:16 <Ammler> well, it is not independent tool 07:50:18 <planetmaker> branch. Not repo 07:50:24 <Ammler> you need another script to run it 07:51:54 <Pawz> well, if I can help in any way.. ? 07:52:10 <Pawz> not sure how much work you're talking about that's all :) 07:52:39 <planetmaker> Pawz: that's talking about quite some work :-) 07:53:31 <Ammler> no chance to convert opengfx via script to nml? 07:53:33 <planetmaker> as it means a re-write of a base set 07:53:50 <planetmaker> Ammler: not entirely. But it could be done in large parts 07:54:12 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1AC2E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 07:54:24 <planetmaker> it would fail where we use the templates 07:54:34 <planetmaker> which we do not do in most cases 07:55:16 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 07:55:50 <Ammler> is the same tar able to have normal and ez sprites? 07:56:07 <Pawz> what *are* ez sprites? 07:56:28 *** DDR [~DDR@142.179.78.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:56:42 <Ammler> 32bpp are same size as 8bpp 07:56:54 <Ammler> 32bpp-ez have differen sizes 07:57:32 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 07:58:15 <Pawz> the -ez ones use NML for correct positioning then? 07:58:24 <Ammler> the issue is because everyone thinks ez is the "normal" 32bpp, people still stay making 8bpp graphcis 07:59:00 <Ammler> instead making 32bpp right from start and not care about the very limited palette anymore 07:59:33 <peter1138> :S 07:59:35 <planetmaker> Pawz: probably not and they use nfo. But not sure 07:59:46 <planetmaker> or pngcodec 07:59:53 <planetmaker> nml is still a very new language 07:59:56 <Ammler> IMO, openttd should trash 8bpp and use 32bpp only 08:00:01 <planetmaker> nah 08:00:08 <planetmaker> 8bpp is still faster 08:00:27 <Ammler> you have proves? 08:00:35 <planetmaker> but newgrfs can meanwhile declare their preferred blitter. Thus... it's just about using it 08:00:46 <planetmaker> Ammler: yes. it could be easily proven 08:01:25 <Ammler> I thought it is just a bit more memory usage 08:01:46 <planetmaker> and thus needs more memory shuffling and updating. Thus it's slower :-) 08:01:49 <Ammler> which openttd has bascially none 08:01:59 <Pawz> well, maybe if you're running on 256mb of ram :) 08:02:14 <planetmaker> that's sufficient, Pawz for any openttd 08:02:24 <Ammler> Pawz: how much memory has a today phone? 08:02:47 <Pawz> no idea. are phone users a pretty big user base? 08:03:01 <Pawz> I'd think it'd be terribly painful to use the game on a phone. 08:03:16 <Ammler> don't think so, just think, those might be the only user which would suffer from more memory usage 08:03:24 <appe> bill evans is a god damn hero. 08:03:30 <Pawz> regardless, there's no point in dumping 8bit if you've got 'em all already 08:03:54 <Ammler> nah, you still need to support it 08:04:02 <Ammler> it is not like done 08:04:14 <Ammler> there is no opengfx 1.0 :-) 08:04:16 <Pawz> oh? I though OpenGFX had replaced all teh sprites 08:04:23 <planetmaker> it has 08:04:34 <planetmaker> we just didn't call it 1.0 for whatever reason 08:04:41 <Pawz> so that's not 'done'? :) 08:04:55 <planetmaker> toyland could use more climate-specific sprites 08:04:56 <Ammler> planetmaker: because it isn't done 08:04:59 <Pawz> you just want to add ice to your rivers don't you 08:05:10 <planetmaker> and some other things might need a slight overhaul to look better 08:05:14 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:05:25 <planetmaker> Pawz: yes... but don't they have ice? 08:05:32 <planetmaker> or you want ice floating? 08:05:40 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd 08:05:41 <Pawz> floating ice that animates! 08:05:52 <planetmaker> no animation. Floating ice is feasible 08:06:08 <Pawz> I'd like 32bpp floating ice please. 08:06:08 <planetmaker> the buoy has floating ice around it, if above snow line ;-) 08:06:16 <Ammler> oh, isn't animation a bit issue on 32bpp, btw.? 08:06:28 <Ammler> or at least the action colors 08:06:29 <Pawz> apparently it's just not there? 08:06:36 <Pawz> I think the palette cycling doesn't work 08:06:48 <planetmaker> let's see 08:07:01 <Ammler> then we have a real reason not to drop 8bpp :-) 08:07:23 <Ammler> s/bit/big/ 08:07:39 <Pawz> I'd call it a reason to add animating to 32bit 08:08:24 <norbert79> Ammler: Memory usage? That could be also an additional reason... Just saying. 08:08:33 <Ammler> norbert79: really? 08:08:53 <norbert79> Ammler: Well, I am thinking on machines which don't have a GPU included 08:08:55 <planetmaker> palette animation works 08:09:09 <planetmaker> norbert79: openttd needs not really a gui 08:09:13 <planetmaker> err... gpu 08:09:23 <Ammler> are there any benchmarks/stats avialable somewhere 08:09:26 <planetmaker> just some video memory 08:09:38 <norbert79> planetmaker: Exactly. 8 bit uses less of it... 08:09:50 <Ammler> I mean the difference needs to be damn huge as 8bpp uses no memory 08:09:53 <norbert79> if it is important still 08:10:03 <norbert79> Ammler: It uses, but not the system RAM 08:10:17 <norbert79> Memory isn't always RAM only :) 08:10:44 <planetmaker> Ammler: the amount of memory needed for graphics is about 4 times as big for 32bpp when compared to 8bpp 08:10:45 <Ammler> I see, and that is different from 8bpp to 32bpp? 08:10:49 <planetmaker> thus... it will be slower 08:11:17 <Ammler> planetmaker: thats sounds for me like you calculated 32/8 :-P 08:11:27 <planetmaker> bah. 32bpp coal mines are... in need of a serious overhaul 08:11:37 <planetmaker> coal pile looks like just a black dot 08:11:50 <planetmaker> no dust anywhere. Waaaay too clean for such mine 08:12:03 <planetmaker> newly kÀrcher'ed buildings... 08:12:20 <Pawz> how much of a process is it to get a standard png into the game? 08:12:59 <Ammler> does a today graphic card really take advance from 8bpp graphcis? 08:13:11 <Pawz> I don't know anything about making newgrfs or whatnot, but I can make some sprites 08:13:28 <Pawz> Ammler - it *may* IF the sprites are rendered through a 3d engine 08:13:36 <Pawz> which I doubt OTTD does 08:14:08 <Ammler> I really would like some stats/benchmarks which show difference from 8bpp to 32bpp 08:14:11 <Ammler> (no ez) 08:14:47 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has left #openttd [] 08:14:49 <planetmaker> Pawz: in principle as much work as using http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:32bpp_sprites on sprites, i.e. only slightly over getting a normal newgrf up and running 08:15:38 <norbert79> Pawz: I love the fact, that OpenTTD doesn't need any accelerated GPU to be able to work, so it can be ran even on very old machines too 08:15:57 <Pawz> norbert79: wasn't suggesting it should be otherwise :) 08:15:59 <norbert79> Pawz: Would be sad if it would be changed 08:16:14 <Pawz> just sayin' that it wouldn't use the GPU to do anything 08:16:35 <Ammler> norbert79: and that can't handle 32bpp? 08:17:25 <norbert79> Ammler: Well, very old GFX card cannot handle 32 bpp that fast, for example an S3 Virge might go well with it, while a plain S3 would suffer 08:17:55 <norbert79> Ammler: But these all are assumptions, since old games used to use 8bit, but that got 'projected' onto a 32 bit resolution 08:18:07 <norbert79> Ammler: So basically it looked better, but still all sprites were 8 bit 08:18:27 <Ammler> well, that 8bpp and 32bpp doesn't differ noticeable is also (my) assumption ;-) 08:18:48 <norbert79> Ammler: Memory usage... Still... more bpp, more memory needed 08:18:55 <Ammler> norbert79: 32bpp would not have any issue to render 8bpp, would it? 08:19:05 <norbert79> ? 08:19:20 <Ammler> norbert79: 4 times the memory from now would not be much more 08:19:27 <norbert79> That would make the CPU usage higher 08:19:28 <Ammler> it would still be below 100MB 08:19:30 <planetmaker> Ammler: 8bpp is mostly also faster with the (palette) animation 08:19:37 <planetmaker> which needs to be done quite differently for 32bpp 08:19:41 <Ammler> at max 200 08:19:48 <planetmaker> and palette animation is a core part of openttd graphics 08:19:50 <norbert79> Why to use 32 bit sprites and converting those back to 8 bit? Doesn't make sense 08:20:07 <V453000> well the main CPU melt that openttd makes is pathfinding and other not-drawing actions I suppose 08:20:26 <Ammler> norbert79: I meant using the 8bpp sprites and render with 32bpp 08:20:37 <V453000> so a slight increase in drawing might not be that drastical? 08:20:37 <Ammler> I guess, that is already that way, if you enable 32bpp 08:20:38 <planetmaker> V453000: not only. zooming out on a busy map uses significant amounts of cpu 08:20:44 <V453000> true 08:20:55 <norbert79> Ammler: Yes 08:20:58 <planetmaker> and look at the speed up for fast-forward you get for a full-screen window and a minimized window 08:21:21 <V453000> yes, didnt think about that 08:21:22 <PeanutHorst> norbert79: good thing i use a ViRGE/DX 08:21:24 <PeanutHorst> :p 08:21:26 <planetmaker> as all drawing and sprite update is on the cpu it's not negligible 08:21:36 <Ammler> maybe we should ask SmatZ to make some benchmarks 08:21:43 <norbert79> PeanutHorst: Lucky... I only could get a regular S3 back then... :) 08:21:51 <Ammler> I mean everyone here does just guess, nobody really knows :-) 08:21:52 <V453000> hm :) I am happy with 8bpp anyway :P 08:21:55 <Ammler> or can prove 08:21:57 <norbert79> PeanutHorst: it was way too expensive back then 08:22:17 <norbert79> Ammler: Can't prove what? 08:22:19 <peter1138> s3... *shudder* 08:22:27 <peter1138> V453000, yeah, that's the problem :) 08:22:33 <peter1138> well "problem" 08:22:36 <Ammler> norbert79: that dropping 8bpp blitter would slow down the game 08:22:52 <Ammler> (noticeable) 08:23:35 <norbert79> Ammler: Try it on older machines, you'll see using 32 bit... Besides, simple: create a BMP file, 640x480, save it in 32 bit and in 8 bit. Check filesizes 08:23:55 <Ammler> yesyes 08:24:05 <Ammler> that is obvious 08:24:08 <Eddi|zuHause> man you guys talk waaay too much this early in the morning 08:24:16 <PeanutHorst> norbert79: i was joking - but I do have a Virge DX around here 08:24:19 <Terkhen> :P 08:24:25 <PeanutHorst> also an ATi RAGE IIc 08:24:26 <Ammler> of course it will differ, I meant "noticeable" 08:24:57 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Headaches? :) 08:25:31 <norbert79> Ammler: Even on my Intel 945 I can see huge difference, when using 32 bit, and fullscreen... It slows indeed down 08:25:32 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: I suggested to drop 8bpp, some people don't want :-P 08:26:32 <Ammler> norbert79: you run openttd? :-o 08:26:51 <norbert79> Ammler: Not right now, but home I use to play it with my son often in LAN 08:27:16 <Ammler> hehe 08:27:24 <Ammler> well, I meant the test you just did 08:27:31 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: yeah, i came that far 08:27:41 <Ammler> or do you speak from memory? 08:27:42 *** Pawz [~chatzilla@203-59-135-71.perm.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 7.0.1/20110928134238]] 08:28:02 <norbert79> Ammler: Re-read my sentence, of course I am speaking about past experiences/tests 08:28:07 <norbert79> Ammler: :) 08:28:24 <Ammler> as all here do, nobody really knows :-) 08:28:55 <Ammler> maybe peter1138 does, but he is silent about this topic :-P 08:29:16 <peter1138> i am? 08:29:22 <peter1138> what is it know? 08:29:54 <peter1138> +i 08:30:02 <peter1138> obviously not english 08:30:11 <Ammler> would people notice, if openttd just drops 8bpp? 08:30:16 <norbert79> Ammler: Yes 08:30:42 <Ammler> :-) 08:30:43 <peter1138> someone would complain 08:30:48 <peter1138> possibly me ;) 08:30:56 <norbert79> and many hundred others too 08:31:14 <norbert79> tt-forums would die off from the slashdot effect 08:31:44 <Ammler> don't the mac users run openttd in 32bpp mode since ever? 08:32:05 <peter1138> i thinks o 08:33:11 <Ammler> planetmaker: I just think, you should also discuss this with your devs team, before we start a simple 32bpp opengfx clone 08:33:13 <Eddi|zuHause> mac people are crazy anyway 08:33:29 <norbert79> I think that's a touchy topic today... 08:33:49 <peter1138> i don't think that's relevant 08:34:04 <Ammler> or well, we could call current opengfx 1.0 and continue on opengfx 2 with 32bpp :-) 08:34:32 <PeanutHorst> agree on that one 08:34:39 <peter1138> heh, i remember i posted a screenshot of 32bpp openttd once ;) 08:34:47 <PeanutHorst> or opengfx-ng (next gen) 08:34:48 <PeanutHorst> :p 08:34:51 <peter1138> it was 8bpp graphics but using the 32bpp blitter :p 08:35:06 * Ammler wonders if there will ever be 32bpp too few colors eihter? 08:35:25 <peter1138> well, it can't produce octarine 08:35:34 <PeanutHorst> ... 08:35:36 <PeanutHorst> nothing can. 08:35:36 <PeanutHorst> :) 08:35:48 <dihedral> oi 08:35:56 <Ammler> maybe we should make a kind of 1024bpp just to be sure 08:36:22 <PeanutHorst> ... 08:36:23 <peter1138> Ammler, some graphics cards can do 16 bits per channel (48bpp) 08:37:00 <norbert79> peter1138: Used to ran Half Life in that mode, when played on a Pentium 200 MMX, with an older GFX card 08:37:10 <peter1138> but i doubt that's necessary for gaming 08:37:15 <peter1138> norbert79, no, that's 16bpp 08:37:23 <norbert79> oh, wait, now I see 08:37:27 <norbert79> sorry 08:37:48 <norbert79> was confused with 16 bits/channel and with 16bpp 08:37:53 <peter1138> who thinks i should have a go at making antialiasing text with shadows look better? :p 08:38:01 <peter1138> -ing+ed 08:38:08 <norbert79> peter1138: I don't... 08:38:14 <planetmaker> 10:31 norbert79: tt-forums would die off from the slashdot effect <-- I'd not count on that 08:38:17 <peter1138> good call 08:38:24 <planetmaker> at least openttd website survived a slashdot already 08:38:40 <peter1138> it missed out on the opportunity to get notched :( 08:38:42 <norbert79> peter1138: I don't get it, OpenTTD was never about shiny bleed-edge graphics, it looks even after 17 years as good as it looked in 2011 08:38:45 <norbert79> I mean 1994 08:39:09 <Ammler> what does andy like about the ttd graphcis, the limited colors or the pixeling? 08:39:42 <planetmaker> Ammler: what discussion would starting a 32bpp OpenGFX clone need? 08:39:44 <norbert79> Ammler: Since when do you use a Personal Computer? 08:39:48 <Eddi|zuHause> you can pixel-push 32bpp graphics just as well 08:40:03 <Ammler> planetmaker: if we want to keep 8bpp opengfx 08:40:21 <Ammler> or simply "close" that and continue with 32bpp opengfx only 08:40:22 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Sure, but it's just not the same... 08:40:29 <planetmaker> I don't think it's an either-or question 08:40:46 <planetmaker> They could live along eachother, couldn't they? 08:40:53 <peter1138> yes 08:40:59 *** DDR [~DDR@142.179.78.88] has joined #openttd 08:41:08 <Terkhen> yup 08:41:09 <norbert79> Now I drop this conversdation and grab some food, I don't get it why it's such a rush dropping 8bpp, like all world would be depending on this... 08:41:20 <peter1138> norbert79, have you seen the text shadow with antialiased text on? :p 08:41:31 <peter1138> heh 08:41:34 <planetmaker> norbert79: I don't think anyone wants to really drop it here :-) 08:41:37 <Ammler> norbert79: there is no hurry :-P 08:41:50 <Eddi|zuHause> problem is that currently, if you go the 32bpp way, you have duplicate work with also providing 8bpp images 08:41:50 <peter1138> "rush" 08:41:51 <peter1138> hehe 08:41:54 <planetmaker> The only thing which is needed is easy 32bpp support. And graphics in 32bpp 08:41:55 <norbert79> peter1138: I do graphics, I know the difference for sure, but I just like OpenTTD as it looks, as it is now :) 08:42:41 <Ammler> norbert79: the question was just, if 8bpp has any advantage, which we didn't found any 08:42:43 <norbert79> peter1138: I go even further: Heores of Might and Magic started to suck, when they moved away from the good old looks, and even the 5th Episode or the 6th isn't the same either... I would have kept the 2D look as it was, and I still think HoMM3 is the best 08:42:57 <norbert79> Ammler: %s/any/many 08:43:09 <Ammler> all without prove :-P 08:43:10 <planetmaker> norbert79: fully agreed on HOMM 08:43:40 <Eddi|zuHause> i have not played any other than HoMM3 08:43:48 <planetmaker> Ammler: do the test: take a built-up psg. Measure cpu usage with both blitters and compare 08:43:52 <norbert79> planetmaker: Ever tried WoG, Wake of Gods called 3.5? It's a nice try, but I still don't like it... 08:43:58 <planetmaker> norbert79: no 08:43:59 <Ammler> I mean dropping 8bpp would not mean dropping 8bpp newgrfs 08:44:03 <planetmaker> don't even know that name 08:44:28 <planetmaker> Ammler: but then... why drop 8bpp? 08:44:31 <planetmaker> Any reason? 08:44:36 <norbert79> planetmaker: It's an extension to HoMM3, and there is also a project in place called: VCMI for HoMM http://forum.vcmi.eu/portal.php 08:44:43 <Ammler> so you don't need to support it anymore 08:44:56 <planetmaker> it's a blitter which is there. So what? 08:44:58 <norbert79> planetmaker: Basically they try to do with HoMM3 the same what OpenTTD is for TTD 08:45:07 <planetmaker> ah 08:45:20 <planetmaker> I shall look at that. thanks 08:45:27 <norbert79> planetmaker: You are welcome 08:46:43 <Ammler> planetmaker: that's the point, you keep 8bpp in openttd, because it might have influence on psg (what's psg?) 08:47:43 <planetmaker> public server game? ;-) 08:48:30 <V453000> :-D 08:48:39 <planetmaker> I surely know I can play longer with 8bpp than with 32bpp blitter :-) 08:48:40 <Ammler> but you paused the game, I hope 08:48:43 <norbert79> Professional Service Gendre 08:48:56 <Ammler> planetmaker: I thought, you need to use 32bpp 08:49:08 <norbert79> Pretty Serious Game 08:49:10 <planetmaker> Ammler: no, I don't need to 08:49:15 <Ammler> so my guess, that osx users need 32bpp was wrong 08:49:16 <planetmaker> it's just the default 08:49:24 <planetmaker> but I don't use it usually 08:49:28 *** DDR [~DDR@142.179.78.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:49:58 <Ammler> why is it default? 08:50:10 <planetmaker> because there's hardware which has issues with 8bpp 08:50:26 <planetmaker> and the drivers obviously don't properly support that somewhere 08:50:31 <planetmaker> s/and/or/ 08:51:50 <planetmaker> Ammler: and don't stop the game, but compare the very same game running 08:55:28 <Ammler> equal cpu usage, 4MB more useage for 32bpp 08:55:52 <Ammler> 35 instead 31, so 8bpp is really waste of your time 08:57:36 <Ammler> 9547 marcel 20 0 386m 44m 10m R 49 0.6 1:10.24 ./openttd -b 32bpp-anim 08:57:38 <Ammler> 9493 marcel 20 0 409m 40m 10m R 47 0.5 1:31.19 ./openttd 08:58:38 <V453000> why is it a waste? 08:58:52 <V453000> I mean ... what is that much worse with it 08:58:56 <Ammler> because as user I see no difference 08:59:38 <Ammler> V453000: you might got it wrong, droping 8bpp blitter would not mean you can't use the 8bpp newgrfs :-) 09:00:06 <V453000> probably :p 09:00:18 <V453000> just trying to understand 09:00:29 <Ammler> I mean, those 2 openttd looked exactly the same, I didn't use any 32bpp sprites 09:01:33 *** Pawz [~chatzilla@58-7-149-99.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #openttd 09:01:35 <Eddi|zuHause> "no diffference" doesn't pass as "worse" around here 09:01:43 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 09:03:01 <Ammler> hmm, did I use the word "worse"? 09:03:27 <Ammler> I just said, supporting 8bpp is waste of time 09:04:09 <Pawz> how about supporting a 32bpp repository that sorts things by sprite number 09:04:18 <Ammler> Pawz: just use nml 09:04:19 <Pawz> that wouldn't be a waste of time! ;) 09:04:43 <Ammler> nml does the numbering for you 09:04:47 <V453000> but why is 8bpp a waste of time :) Do you mean it is better to draw 32bpp sprites, or just that 32bpp should be used regardless of the sprites 09:04:54 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-188-194.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 09:04:57 <Ammler> V453000: no 09:05:06 <Ammler> it is just waste of time for the devs here 09:05:09 <Pawz> just a question.. how bad does a 32bpp sprite look when run as 8b? 09:05:30 <planetmaker> it doesn't look 09:05:31 <Ammler> as openttd 32bpp can happily use the 8bpp sprites without any drawback 09:05:42 <planetmaker> vice versa: no difference 09:05:59 <V453000> I see, thanks 09:06:07 <Ammler> Pawz: we have some "ugly" 32bpp houses in opengfx 09:06:12 <planetmaker> Ammler: here consistently 32bpp uses a few % more CPU 09:06:15 <peter1138> has anyone tried it? 09:06:21 <planetmaker> like 2...5% 09:06:57 <Ammler> but as always with 32bpp it is wrongly also meant with ez 09:06:59 <planetmaker> and 5MB more ram (38 vs. 43) 09:07:08 <Ammler> and the houses might be ugly because those were for ez 09:07:50 <planetmaker> opengfx-8bpp needs less noisy houses, too 09:08:01 * planetmaker likes swedish-houses style 09:08:22 <peter1138> "someone" should do a complete set in sketchup ;) 09:08:44 <Ammler> V453000: you would still need to draw 8bpp, if you like to stay with retrolook 09:09:15 <V453000> well I mainly think that drawing in many more colours is much harder to do 09:09:36 <Ammler> but if 32bpp doesn't support animations, it is useless anyway 09:09:40 <V453000> maybe isnt, dont know 09:09:41 <planetmaker> Ammler: it does 09:09:55 <Ammler> planetmaker: palette animations 09:10:00 <peter1138> it does, but only palette animation 09:10:03 <planetmaker> it does 09:10:10 <Ammler> hmm - hmm 09:10:11 <planetmaker> hm, only palette animation?! 09:10:23 <appe> "swedish-houses style"? 09:10:31 <planetmaker> the rest has nothing to do with blitter 09:10:32 <Ammler> peter1138: might just said it wrong 09:10:34 <peter1138> as opposed to random changes within the sprite 09:10:35 <V453000> appe: newGRF 09:10:35 <planetmaker> the "normal" animation 09:10:50 <peter1138> which isn't anything special about 32pp 09:10:53 <peter1138> +b 09:10:54 <planetmaker> peter1138: what random changes? 09:11:10 <Pawz> isn't the 'normal' animation just a matter of flipping between sprites? 09:11:11 <planetmaker> appe: like the swedish-houses newgrf 09:11:20 <planetmaker> it's the nicest house newgrf around IMHO 09:11:27 <planetmaker> maybe next to ttrs 09:11:32 <peter1138> meh, *i* know what i mean :p 09:11:37 <planetmaker> but they're a bit different style 09:11:40 <appe> oh, ok 09:11:57 <peter1138> not sure if i've seen swedish houses 09:12:03 <peter1138> but TAI looks quite nice 09:12:22 <Ammler> does TAI have own graphics in the meantime? 09:12:36 <peter1138> always did 09:14:12 <peter1138> (yes, they're *very* *very* similar to the original graphics) 09:23:47 <Terkhen> :P 09:24:05 <Pawz> hey quick question 09:24:10 <Pawz> how do I swap blitters? 09:25:35 <planetmaker> by restarting openttd with another blitter :-) 09:25:59 <planetmaker> openttd -b blittername 09:26:01 <Pawz> by googling blitter & openttd to figure out the config 09:26:02 <Pawz> :) 09:26:22 <planetmaker> you know... you even got a readme 09:27:03 <Pawz> hey it animates my 32bpp stuff 09:27:19 <Pawz> well, the smoke on my power plant at least 09:28:11 <planetmaker> yes 09:28:13 *** Vadtec [~Vadtec@2001:470:1f06:13e0::1337] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:30:09 *** Vadtec [~Vadtec@2001:470:1f06:13e0::1337] has joined #openttd 09:34:16 *** DDR [~DDR@142.179.78.88] has joined #openttd 09:44:43 *** DDR [~DDR@142.179.78.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:57:04 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4db1a688.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 10:11:09 <peter1138> lull 10:16:54 <Eddi|zuHause> your tongue is numb? 10:22:23 *** Progman_ [~progman@p57A1A13E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 10:24:07 *** Progman_ [~progman@p57A1A13E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 10:25:42 *** KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-8-68-209.as43234.net] has joined #openttd 10:26:15 <peter1138> yay, fancy antialiased text with shadows ;p 10:27:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i wouldn't know, i only ever used the sprite font... 10:27:32 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1AC2E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:28:24 <peter1138> hmm, 32bpp-anim still has the alpha bug 10:28:58 <Yexo> what alpha bug? 10:30:01 <Pawz> oh man changing the font size & type in the config makes it SO much easier to read 10:32:10 <Terkhen> yes :P 10:34:50 <Rubidium> Yexo: the one where animated colours don't propagate through transparent stuff 10:35:18 <peter1138> yexo, this one... http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/1.png 10:35:28 <Pawz> hey is there a way to change a group of vehicle's service times at the same time? 10:35:48 <peter1138> can't remember what caused it now :S 10:36:00 <Yexo> peter1138: what part of your image? 10:36:08 <peter1138> the text 10:36:19 <peter1138> it's meant to be antialiased 10:36:24 <Yexo> ah 10:36:34 <peter1138> it's not a font issue though, it's a rendering problem 10:36:48 <Yexo> that's a differnet problem than what rb mentioned, right? 10:36:52 <peter1138> think so 10:37:06 <Yexo> which font is that? 10:37:20 <peter1138> can't remember, it's old. i think it's arial 10:37:46 <peter1138> i'll get a current one 10:38:26 <peter1138> http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/anti.png 10:38:33 <peter1138> bit clearer :) 10:38:51 <peter1138> (also demonstrates the nicer text shadow) 10:40:08 <peter1138> ((also we need kerning :p)) 10:41:31 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1A13E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 10:42:45 *** MINM [~mBuntu@ip5452ffad.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:43:03 <peter1138> only happens with 32bpp-anim, not the other 32bpp blitters 10:43:24 <Yexo> I can't reproduce it yet 10:44:45 <peter1138> happens less often with palette animation enabled, but still occurs 10:45:40 <b_jonas> aren't you taking the "newspaper" thing too seriously? just because openttd shows a "newspaper" doesn't mean text has to have press quality. 10:45:41 <Yexo> http://devs.openttd.org/~yexo/font.png This is what I get, which looks fine 10:46:01 <peter1138> ok, make sure palette animation is off, then on the main menu, open up the newgrf settings window, then close it... 10:46:31 <Yexo> palette animation is the "full animation" buttin in game right? 10:46:33 <Yexo> that one was already off 10:46:36 <peter1138> yes 10:46:48 <Pawz> I'm sad I can't get 32bpp vehicles working with FIRS 10:46:54 <Yexo> opening and closing the newgrf window indeed reproduced it 10:53:41 <Terkhen> Pawz: why not? 10:54:06 <Pawz> Terkhen: because I can't find a newGRF that enables FIRS cargos without overwriting the 32bpp vehicles 10:54:18 <Terkhen> oh, I see 10:55:10 <peter1138> old wagons new cargos? 10:55:38 <Pawz> i'll give it a shot 10:58:34 <Pawz> aha! that works.. for trains 10:59:10 <Pawz> too bad there isn't another one for boats & trucks 11:02:30 <Pawz> although... hmm this Refit RV one looks like it works 11:02:32 <Pawz> cool 11:02:33 <Pawz> :) 11:03:23 <Pawz> took me half a week but I think I finally have a working 32bpp version that's reasonably playable 11:03:43 <b_jonas> Pawz: next challenge: get extra zoom playable too 11:03:52 <Pawz> It is :D 11:04:00 <Pawz> That's what I'm working with at least 11:04:15 *** lugo [bnc4free@209.141.56.5] has quit [Quit: over and out] 11:04:17 <planetmaker> b_jonas: the real challenge is to get openttd playable with only 32bpp 11:04:30 <Pawz> this looks incredible 11:04:45 <Pawz> amusing I note that the vehicle windows are done in 8bpp 11:06:49 <b_jonas> (or rotatable) 11:07:24 <Pawz> rotatable isn't necessary 11:07:51 <b_jonas> well, I'd settle with much less actually 11:07:57 <b_jonas> better transparency options 11:08:49 <b_jonas> namely: a way to hide smoke from power plants (preferably automatically done if you set industries to transparent), 11:09:22 <b_jonas> a way to somehow indicate trees without them covering everything (perhaps show them as tree stumps), 11:10:03 <b_jonas> a button on the transparency toolbar to hide fences around railway tracks (currently you need to turn "full detail" off), 11:10:07 <b_jonas> etc 11:10:26 <Pawz> I'd just prefer starting with 32bpp base set completely done :) 11:11:28 <peter1138> that'd be nice 11:12:01 <b_jonas> as for the vehicle windows, assume the camera is attached to the vehicle so it's of worse quality than the normal view which uses real TV cameras 11:12:41 <Pawz> heh it actually doesn't look bad 11:12:49 <Pawz> since it's at the standard zoom 11:13:56 <Pawz> hmm lol how do you tell a whole group of like 15 busses that they need to maintain themselves a little more often than once every 150 days 11:15:06 <appe> appe wants ipad compatible openttd, puh-leaze 11:15:22 <b_jonas> Pawz: sell all, recreate them with clone? 11:15:38 <Pawz> hmm was hoping there was something like shared orders 11:15:49 <Pawz> I guess I'll just insert a shared go to depot order 11:16:31 <b_jonas> that works too 11:18:09 <b_jonas> I should figure out how to best optimize the depots of my trains 11:18:55 <Pawz> I'm tempted to pack this entire openTTD folder up into a zip and post it on the forum 11:19:50 <Eddi|zuHause> that's legally questional 11:20:17 <Pawz> is it? 11:20:27 <__ln__> it is. 11:20:39 <Yexo> there are several tar files for 32bpp (ez) that have no license file 11:20:47 <Yexo> which in effect means you're not allowed to redistribute them 11:21:00 *** enr1x [~kiike@62.57.225.29.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #openttd 11:21:03 <norbert79> Yexo: Unless approval from original creator 11:21:05 <Pawz> well I'm not using any ez 11:21:09 <Pawz> tar files 11:21:24 <Pawz> what ez tar files? heh 11:21:33 <Pawz> are there more?? 11:21:47 <Yexo> more than what? 11:21:53 <Yexo> did you look in jupix repository? 11:21:59 <norbert79> Pawz: You can only distribute material, for which you have the license included or got written approval from original creator. 11:22:07 <norbert79> Pawz: Just saying in general 11:22:48 <planetmaker> Pawz: posting sprites you have no permission to distribute, especially in our forums will not make you friends and you'll find that file or link thereto removed pretty quickly 11:23:12 <Pawz> *shrug* Just wanting to help people find all these graphics 11:23:38 <Pawz> so rehosting a tar is bad? 11:23:40 <planetmaker> Pawz: that's not the problem 11:23:50 <norbert79> Pawz: Well, what I do normally for myself is, that I download (almost) every possible NewGRF, and create one ZIP for my own use 11:23:50 <Yexo> Pawz: that depends on the license 11:23:51 <planetmaker> the problem is you *may not* distribute many of the sprites 11:23:52 <Pawz> (like the nightly jupix build) 11:24:00 <__ln__> however rehosting a tar does need a permission from the author (or license that permits it) 11:24:16 <planetmaker> or rather *must not* 11:24:23 <Yexo> A way to circumvent the problem is to create a list of links to the original locations instead of rehosting the file 11:24:36 <Yexo> that way if the original file is updated people will automatically download the updated file 11:24:40 <planetmaker> yes 11:25:04 <Pawz> I see why you want to make all the 32bpp stuff available under the same license -_- 11:25:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i suppose we already have like 10 "lists of links" to 32bpp files, that are all somewhat unmaintained and outdated 11:25:39 <norbert79> Pawz: One license solves the problem. For example that's why I prefer Creative Commons, easy to modify the terms to your needs... 11:26:13 <norbert79> Pawz: Or GPL... 11:26:38 <Pawz> OpenTTD is GPL right? 11:26:49 <norbert79> Pawz: The engine yes 11:27:06 <norbert79> Pawz: So is Duke Nukem 3D, yet the GRP doesn't comes with it 11:27:16 <norbert79> Pawz: and Doom 3 by now afaik 11:27:31 <norbert79> Pawz: Seperate the engine from the graphics/music, etc 11:27:41 <Yexo> Pawz: we're already discussing including the relevant 32bpp sprites in the ogfx+ projects. For that we'll only use sprites with a gpl license 11:28:00 <Yexo> creating a list of files we could use for that would be very useful 11:28:14 <norbert79> Yexo: Easier to implement in OpenTTD, including forcing of releasing the source as well 11:29:00 <norbert79> Pawz: Look at the problem like a Website. You can download Drupal, but to make it look well, you need to work on it, make changes, new graphics, etc... 11:29:13 <Yexo> norbert79: I don't get that. What is easier to implement in OpenTTD? 11:29:25 <norbert79> Yexo: Using GPL... Sorry for the confusion 11:29:48 <norbert79> Yexo: I am just focusing on many things at the same time... :) 11:29:52 <planetmaker> indeed, that might be a good work :-) 11:29:56 <Yexo> how can you "implement" "using GP" ? 11:30:05 <Yexo> sorry, I just don't get it at all 11:30:05 <norbert79> Yexo: never mind, just void my last sentence... 11:30:13 *** lugo [bc6f57fe@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 11:30:41 <planetmaker> Pawz: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ogfx-trains and http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ogfx-rv are the projects 11:31:18 <norbert79> planetmaker: Will these both be included in OpenGFX? 11:31:24 <norbert79> planetmaker: later on... 11:31:26 <planetmaker> if you gather 32bpp gpl'ed (or cc-by) sprites and create an issue for them it will be helpful 11:31:38 <planetmaker> they're NewGRFs 11:31:56 <norbert79> planetmaker: I mean in the base package... 11:31:57 <planetmaker> but they share the vehicles. As such sprites can be used for the base set, too 11:31:59 <Yexo> norbert79: no, they're separate projects. They do share the look and file with opengfx, but that's all 11:32:34 <norbert79> Yexo: Well, it would be nice having them, since then you could just totally remove the need of using the original GRF-s 11:32:57 <planetmaker> err... you don't need any original grf, do you? 11:33:22 *** Pawz [~chatzilla@58-7-149-99.dyn.iinet.net.au] has left #openttd [] 11:33:30 <planetmaker> and there he goes ;-) 11:33:31 <norbert79> planetmaker: With OpenGFX no, but these two add even more to the game, doesn't it? 11:33:33 <norbert79> lol 11:33:40 *** Pawz [~chatzilla@58-7-149-99.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #openttd 11:33:49 <norbert79> ah, back already 11:33:59 <planetmaker> norbert79: they enhance the vehicles such that they are usable with all industry newgrfs 11:34:05 <Pawz> closed the wrong window :P 11:34:08 <Yexo> yes, ogfx-trains and ogfx-rv add more cargo support and refitability to the original vehicles 11:34:17 <planetmaker> and add a bit extra sugar here and there 11:34:25 <norbert79> planetmaker: But ECS and FIRS do that already, don't they? 11:34:27 <Yexo> that part can never be included in the baseset 11:34:31 <Pawz> so how is that related to 32bpp? 11:34:41 <planetmaker> norbert79: they are industries. they don't change *any* vehicle 11:34:53 <Yexo> not directly. But your original problem was finding a vehicle set that works with 32bpp sprites 11:34:54 <norbert79> planetmaker: No, but still there is a possibility to refit, right? 11:34:56 <planetmaker> using firs w/o a vehicle newgrf will screw your game. same with ecs 11:34:58 <Yexo> we're trying to create one :) 11:35:11 <planetmaker> norbert79: no. They don't change any vehicle 11:35:14 <Pawz> ah i see 11:35:22 <Pawz> although 2 grfs work already :) 11:35:40 <norbert79> planetmaker: Hmm... Are you sure on that (more like a rethorical question)... I remember different... 11:35:41 <Yexo> those grfs are basically much better versions of "old wagons new cargoes" 11:35:44 <Pawz> 'old wagons new cargos' and 'refit default rvs' 11:36:16 <norbert79> planetmaker: I played ECS, and I can remember on changing trains, yet I am not sure on vehicles, that's true 11:36:33 <planetmaker> norbert79: you must have used train and rv grfs. 11:36:41 <planetmaker> or you would only be able to transport the default cargos 11:36:45 <norbert79> planetmaker: Probably, wasn't playing in single 11:37:53 <Pawz> aha! opengfx + trains works with 32bpps 11:38:06 <Pawz> why didn't you say so in the first place? lol 11:38:32 <planetmaker> I didn't know :-) 11:38:41 <Pawz> oh wait 11:38:44 <Pawz> it doesn't change the bus 11:38:45 <Pawz> dangit 11:38:53 <planetmaker> well. +trains only changes rail vehicles 11:38:54 <Pawz> the cargo trucks are 8bpp 11:38:58 <Pawz> yeah i got both 11:39:58 <Pawz> ok, so you're looking for gpl / similar 32bpp graphic sets 11:40:14 <Pawz> so you can include 'em by default in the +trains and rv's set? 11:40:33 <planetmaker> Pawz: yes, we need the 32bpp sprites which correspond to the rail and road vehicles as found in ogfx+trains and ogx+rv 11:40:38 <Yexo> exactly :) 11:40:55 <planetmaker> which would mostly be like the vehicles found in the base set 11:41:07 <norbert79> planetmaker: Any specific palette needs for creating 32bpp sprites? 11:41:25 <planetmaker> dunno 11:41:26 <Yexo> norbert79: no, it's 32bpp, not paletted images 11:41:40 <planetmaker> I'm not sure how CC and 2CC is handled 11:41:41 <Yexo> you only need a mask file with the default palette for the company colours 11:41:47 <norbert79> Yexo: I know, but some colours might be still have some specific needs, or does 32bpp uses alpha channels? 11:41:48 <planetmaker> that'll need some specific colours 11:41:53 <planetmaker> ah 11:42:06 <norbert79> Yexo: That's already a palette need in my definiton 11:42:07 <norbert79> :) 11:42:09 <Yexo> afaik 32bpp uses the alpha channels 11:42:20 <PeanutHorst> ... 11:42:21 <Eddi|zuHause> afair 32bpp uses an overlay for company colours 11:42:22 <PeanutHorst> daaaaaaaaaamn 11:42:25 <PeanutHorst> i just set up a vactrain line 11:42:31 <PeanutHorst> daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn. 11:42:31 <norbert79> Yexo: Ok, so alpha channels then... Does this includes transparency, like PNG images use? 11:42:42 <Yexo> I think so 11:42:43 <PeanutHorst> norbert79: alpha IS transparency. so yes. 11:42:48 <norbert79> PeanutHorst: Not always... 11:43:02 <peter1138> hmm, weird, i didn't know that openttd "manually" drew shadows for small text of town names 11:43:06 <norbert79> PeanutHorst: have seen alpha's being handled only for 'transparency", but opacity handling lacked 11:43:16 <Yexo> norbert79: see http://wiki.openttd.org/SpriteLoader 11:43:21 <norbert79> Yexo: Cheers 11:43:28 <PeanutHorst> norbert79: yes, that's 1-bit alpha 11:43:34 <PeanutHorst> also called bit mask 11:43:44 <norbert79> PeanutHorst: I know them, thank you... 11:44:11 <PeanutHorst> if it's 8-bit alpha, you're representing opacity, so in the context of 32bpp (8bpp of RGB + 8bpp alpha) it /is/ transparency 11:45:37 <norbert79> PeanutHorst: Ok, let me put this different: does 32bpp able make difference for one pixel if it's fully transparent or not, or is it only able to understand if a pixel is used at one point or not 11:45:55 <norbert79> PeanutHorst: I am asking if I have to consider the usagae and avoid specific colours 11:46:06 <norbert79> PeanutHorst: or the game is able to handle it like PNG files 11:47:26 <peter1138> basically we cheated 11:47:31 <peter1138> there's two images 11:47:39 <peter1138> one is fully 32bpp with 8bit alpha etc 11:47:44 <PeanutHorst> ah. well, I haven't got into making NewGRFs yet, so i'd say err to the side of caution until a dev tells you otherwise 11:47:55 <peter1138> the other contains an 8bpp image containing colours to be remapped 11:48:01 <norbert79> peter1138: I see 11:48:11 <peter1138> so you can use any colour in the 32bpp part 11:48:34 <norbert79> so basically for 8bit the palette (I guess Windows based) must stay 11:48:42 <peter1138> you're restricted to the original 8bpp palette for any remapped part, which is probably fine for normal-size sprites 11:48:52 <norbert79> Understood 11:49:42 <peter1138> of course, getting an image editor that supports paletted and nonpaletted layers might be tricky :) 11:50:16 <norbert79> GIMP 11:50:21 <norbert79> oh, wait 11:50:22 <norbert79> no 11:50:46 <norbert79> well, first the image is being crerated, then I simply converti it back to RGB 11:50:49 <norbert79> simple 11:50:57 <norbert79> after I applied the palette 11:51:08 <norbert79> not really a big deal 11:51:35 *** Kogut [d586afe1@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 11:57:24 <norbert79> peter1138: So if I understand you correctly such images are possible with generic image editing with 32bpp 11:57:25 <norbert79> http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/7899/23587086.png 11:57:32 <norbert79> (white is transparency) 11:57:54 <norbert79> Basically an image with fully transparent and opacity 11:58:26 <norbert79> (Example usage: simulating brake rubber burns on airports, using as design element) 11:59:10 <norbert79> (Why 1? Becuase this was ONE example :)) ) 12:00:21 *** lugo [bc6f57fe@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 12:00:44 *** Beengalas [~Beengalas@nl105-254-205.student.uu.se] has joined #openttd 12:03:20 <Kogut> "Science Applications International Corporation (SAIC) reported a data breach involving personally identifiable and protected health information (PII/PHI) impacting an estimated 4.9 million military clinic and hospital patients." 12:03:28 <Kogut> (data) "may include Social Security numbers, addresses and phone numbers, and some personal health data such as clinical notes, laboratory tests and prescriptions." 12:03:33 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... assume i use ply in the generate script, does that clash with the parsetab file from nmlc? 12:03:42 <Kogut> *The risk of harm to patients is judged to be low despite the data elements involved since retrieving the data on the tapes would require knowledge of and access to specific hardware and software and knowledge of the system and data structure.* 12:04:00 <norbert79> Kogut: The US Army? 12:04:43 <Kogut> yes 12:04:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Kogut: aka "we trust in security by obfuscation"? 12:04:45 <norbert79> Kogut: If yes, they release many standards of their own, including sometimes system specific things, and it also seems, that the human side isn't also well trained. 12:05:04 <Kogut> http://www.tricare.mil/mybenefit/Download/Forms/DataBreach_PublicStatement.pdf 12:05:06 <norbert79> Kogut: There are the ARTEP, FM's, etc, many different releases availlable 12:05:22 <norbert79> Kogut: it's not that impossible to do 12:05:49 <norbert79> Kogut: if one spends enough time understanding the structure, and how they work, it can be done within months/weeks 12:06:11 <Kogut> and bonus "The unfortunate event happened last month when the data was stolen from the car of a SAIC employee in San Antonio." 12:07:13 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: by default yes, but you can change the name of parsetab.py in your code 12:07:18 <norbert79> Kogut: Well, generals and admirals won't be happy... 12:07:37 <norbert79> Kogut: I think full disk encryption is in effect at the army too 12:07:47 <norbert79> Kogut: am suprised it was still to be accessed 12:07:52 <Kogut> "personal health data such as clinical notes, laboratory tests and prescriptions" <- I can imagine use of things like "general A is deadly allergic to foo food" 12:09:07 <Kogut> @Yexo - is it possible to group AIObject::DoCommand in way "do all or nothing"? 12:09:22 <Yexo> no 12:09:49 <Yexo> you could execute all of them is testmode, if all succeed execute all 12:12:00 <Kogut> Maybe it will be better create new command code, CMD_BUILD_RAIL_WAYPOINT_RECTANGLE 12:13:00 <Yexo> why? CmdBUildRailWaypoint can already build a multi-tile waypoint 12:14:11 <Kogut> Oh, now I see it. Thanks. 12:15:20 <Kogut> is it OK to use EnforcePrecondition in a loop? 12:15:36 <Kogut> @Yexo ^ 12:15:59 <Yexo> could be, but most likely it can be used outisde it too 12:16:46 *** Beengalas [~Beengalas@nl105-254-205.student.uu.se] has left #openttd [] 12:17:39 <Yexo> Kogut: just remove the "@pre GetRailTracks(tile) == RAILTRACK_NE_SW || GetRailTracks(tile) == RAILTRACK_NW_SE" precondition for the rectangle function 12:18:36 *** MoleM [c2326022@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 12:18:57 <Kogut> why? 12:19:20 <Kogut> it is still required to check tiles - all tiles in this case 12:19:29 <Yexo> to avoid the "precondition in a loop" problem 12:19:29 <Kogut> so I will do it in a loop 12:19:35 <Yexo> and the cmd will already check all tiles 12:19:40 <Yexo> no need to duplicate that check 12:19:45 <Kogut> OK 12:20:56 *** MoleM [c2326022@ircip1.mibbit.com] has left #openttd [] 12:28:41 <Kogut> width_between_tile_and_tile2 = abs(GetTileX(tile), GetTileX(tile2)) <- is it correct 12:29:38 <Yexo> add 1 to that 12:29:48 <Yexo> abs(5, 5) == 0 12:30:02 <Yexo> and the comma in the middle should be a minus 12:31:00 *** Kogut [d586afe1@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 12:31:53 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:58a5:e1c9:4d42:5994] has joined #openttd 12:31:56 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 12:33:06 <peter1138> http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/oldshadow.png 12:33:09 <peter1138> http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/newshadow.png 12:33:10 *** Kogut [d586afe1@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 12:33:44 <Yexo> newshadow looks a lot better 12:35:04 <norbert79> aye, but I would use 60% of transparency maximally... it looks way to focused 12:35:13 <norbert79> less 'strong' would look nicer 12:35:14 <planetmaker> the new one is much clearer 12:35:27 <planetmaker> much less blurred 12:36:09 <planetmaker> in comparison the old one looks like badly jpg-compressed ;-) 12:36:10 <norbert79> looks a bit overused to me... I wouldn't set a shadow under each font, only for those, where focus is needed 12:36:42 <peter1138> norbert79, ttd's *always* had that shadow 12:37:05 <norbert79> never really seen it... :) 12:37:18 <peter1138> it's only not there for black text 12:37:22 <norbert79> maybe that's why it disturbs me a bit, because of neater resolution on the fonts :) 12:37:32 <peter1138> (oh, and it's only there on the middle-size text) 12:40:48 <norbert79> planetmaker: Possible using different shadow colour? 12:41:00 <norbert79> planetmaker: darker orange would look better... 12:41:07 <planetmaker> don't ask me, please 12:41:13 *** norbert79 [~Norbi@deibp9eh1--blueice2n2.emea.ibm.com] has left #openttd [Leaving for now. Bye everyone!] 12:41:20 *** norbert79 [~Norbi@deibp9eh1--blueice2n2.emea.ibm.com] has joined #openttd 12:41:27 <norbert79> planetmaker: Sorry... 12:42:47 <peter1138> dark orange shadow? 12:42:53 <norbert79> peter1138: Moment 12:43:04 <peter1138> i'm not going to change any text colours, heh 12:47:38 <norbert79> peter1138: http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/4326/text30041.png 12:47:56 <norbert79> First: black shadow 12:47:58 <peter1138> on the title? lol 12:48:05 <norbert79> It was just a demonstration 12:48:07 <peter1138> i'm not doing anything with the title 12:48:18 <Yexo> the title are just sprites anyway, not "text" 12:48:25 <norbert79> Not the title, it's basically a demo of what I was thinking of 12:48:37 <norbert79> using not the black as shadow 12:49:42 <norbert79> Instead of 000000 I was using E9C030 12:50:00 <norbert79> Looks better for orange coloured text 12:50:09 <peter1138> heh 12:50:21 <peter1138> well, colour remaps still use palette entries 12:50:43 <norbert79> Even the 8bit palette has some nice colours... :) 12:50:51 <norbert79> not just black ;-) 12:51:24 <norbert79> unless the same shadow colour would be used everywhere 12:51:55 <peter1138> it is, yes 12:52:00 <norbert79> Dang 12:57:27 *** Pawz [~chatzilla@58-7-149-99.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 7.0.1/20110928134238]] 13:29:42 *** norbert79 [~Norbi@deibp9eh1--blueice2n2.emea.ibm.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving for now. Bye everyone!] 13:38:06 *** norbert79 [~Norbi@deibp9eh1--blueice1n2.emea.ibm.com] has joined #openttd 13:38:08 *** norbert79 [~Norbi@deibp9eh1--blueice1n2.emea.ibm.com] has quit [] 13:38:11 *** Devroush [~dennis@ip-83-134-177-170.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #openttd 13:43:47 *** norbert79 [~Norbi@deibp9eh1--blueice1n2.emea.ibm.com] has joined #openttd 13:46:13 *** Devroush [~dennis@ip-83-134-177-170.dsl.scarlet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:46:48 *** Devroush [~dennis@ip-83-134-138-210.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #openttd 13:48:36 *** Timur [~Timur@228.84-48-163.nextgentel.com] has joined #openttd 13:48:45 <Timur> Hello 13:48:53 <planetmaker> hello 13:49:31 <Timur> I'm having some trouble with my town growth, and was wondering if someone could provide insight into why there's no growth. 13:50:08 <planetmaker> switched off maybe? 13:50:14 <Terkhen> we need more info :P 13:50:32 <Timur> I guessed so :P 2sec, I'll list it. 13:50:43 <planetmaker> it = provide savegame link ;-) 13:51:15 <Timur> Ah, ok. Where can I upload it? 13:53:08 <michi_cc> peter1138: Looks a lot better, commit it :) 13:54:18 <planetmaker> dunno... whereever one can upload stuff 13:55:05 <planetmaker> make sure that there are free roads near the town, so that it can expand 13:55:18 <Timur> http://www.megaupload.com/?d=ZXNLN1CK 13:55:22 <Timur> There's my save. 13:55:22 <planetmaker> a town circled by rail usually has a very hard time to grow 13:55:32 <Kogut> why there's no growth. - you modified seed tile, under town name, right? 13:55:57 <Timur> The town only has rail on one side, the other three are free, and premade roads for growth. 13:56:18 <planetmaker> Kogut, town centre +- 2 tiles are searched for a road piece to start the search for growth from 13:56:53 <Timur> I have no idea what you guys are talking about :P 13:57:05 <Kogut> anyway, large station in central part can kill towngrowth 13:57:07 <planetmaker> the road piece under the town name 13:57:13 <planetmaker> in the centre of the town 13:57:17 <Kogut> and it easier to ask about single tile 13:58:00 <planetmaker> it's even easier to say "towns don't grow" ;-) 13:59:11 <planetmaker> hmpf... my openttd here lacks lzma. Which sucks 13:59:22 <Timur> Have anyone checked out my save? 13:59:54 <planetmaker> seems I can't load it right now for reasons which are not your fault 14:00:22 <Timur> I'm using OTTD 1.1.2 if it's any help. 14:00:53 <planetmaker> well. did you check the town growth setting? 14:01:05 <planetmaker> how long did you look / wait to observe growth? 14:01:20 <planetmaker> How well is the town serviced / how many stations within its vicinity? 14:01:36 <planetmaker> did you change either date or newgrfs? 14:01:55 <planetmaker> do you use the uk houses and industry grf? 14:02:14 <Timur> I started in 1976,and I'm in 2005 now. 14:02:22 <Yexo> Timur: see http://wiki.openttd.org/Towns#Town_Growth 14:02:26 <Timur> I use original everything :P 14:02:35 <Timur> Only names are different 14:02:39 <Yexo> building 5 stations instead of only 1 helps town growth 14:02:52 <Timur> I've read the wiki. 14:03:38 <Timur> The town has been receving steady passangers/water/food for alteast 10-20 years. 14:04:07 <PeanutHorst> Yexo: do they need to be actual seperate stations for that? 14:04:09 <Kogut> on my trunk openttd city is growing 14:04:17 <Yexo> PeanutHorst: yes 14:04:24 <PeanutHorst> Yexo: welp, i'm doomed 14:04:31 <peter1138> michi_cc, http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/fancyshadow.diff < another patch to be forgotten in the mists of time :p 14:04:38 <Timur> Its max size has been 3000, but then it decreases, and swings between 2000 and 3000. 14:05:09 <planetmaker> peter1138, then go for it... 14:05:34 <michi_cc> peter1138: Does it really need a setting? Just enable it unconditionally... 14:05:49 <planetmaker> uh, setting? 14:05:52 <peter1138> praps :p 14:06:16 <planetmaker> yeah. fancy stuff should be default :-) 14:06:24 <planetmaker> and then a setting like "ugly fonts" 14:06:48 <planetmaker> (i.e. I'm with michi, no setting needed) 14:06:58 <Kogut> @Timur - I added 5 serviced bus stations in city 14:07:06 <peter1138> k 14:07:29 <Timur> Kogut: Individual stations? 14:08:14 <Kogut> @Timur - yes 14:08:21 <Timur> Also, does it grow bigger? 14:08:22 <Kogut> 3,133 14:08:28 <Kogut> 3,200 14:08:49 <planetmaker> that's probably one house difference :-) 14:09:12 <Kogut> 3,300 14:09:30 <Kogut> @planetmaker "Its max size has been 3000, but then it decreases, and swings between 2000 and 3000." 14:09:43 <Belugas> hello 14:09:45 <Kogut> and 3,500 14:09:50 <Kogut> hi 14:10:08 <planetmaker> salut Belugas 14:10:38 <Timur> Sweet, in other older games I've managed to get a town up to 16k, and was confused to why this one wouldn't grow. 14:11:03 <planetmaker> Timur, make it a challange, grow it to one million ;-) 14:11:05 <PeanutHorst> woot, profit of £2,510,000 last year in openttd, i'm on the gravy maglev now :D 14:11:21 <Kogut> 4,100 14:11:49 <Kogut> 4,200 ande openttd is compiled 14:12:34 <Timur> Wow, I just added 4 stations, with a total of 5 in the town, and its grown to almost 3000 now :D 14:12:42 <Timur> Thanks guys! 14:13:01 <planetmaker> http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/PublicServer:Archive_-_Games_131_-_140#gameid_140 ;-) 14:13:04 <Timur> @planetmaker: Is it possible to get a million sized city? 14:13:12 <Kogut> @Timur - drop & load station are rather poor idea 14:13:24 <Timur> Whats that? 14:13:29 <planetmaker> download and look yourself ;-) 14:13:32 <Timur> hehe 14:13:37 <planetmaker> it's a savegame 14:13:49 <V453000> he :) 14:13:51 <Kogut> Your train are loading and unloading cargo on the same station 14:14:29 <Timur> Do i have that on any stations? I usually build from raw product -> industry 14:14:34 <Kogut> it is inefficient and can result in a deadlock 14:14:56 <Kogut> see station near food factory 14:15:08 <V453000> anything can result in a deadlock if you put it that way :) 14:15:30 <planetmaker> V453000, a one-way circle has a hard time to dead-lock ;-) 14:15:32 <Kogut> it is possible to have higher ratings with more full load trains 14:15:57 <Kogut> it is funny how AI can manage to produce deadlock 14:16:00 <Timur> I thought all my trains were "Stay untill fully loaded" ? 14:16:17 <Kogut> yes, but you can add more to have higher station rating 14:16:29 <Kogut> what will result in deadlock with your design 14:16:29 <Timur> I have no idea what that is. 14:16:35 <Kogut> deadlock? 14:16:41 <Timur> No, station rating 14:16:47 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.185.169] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:16:52 <Timur> Isn 14:17:17 <Timur> Isn't deadlock just a traffic jam with the front trains stopped? 14:17:30 <Kogut> see station window and switch to rating (button on the bottom of the window) 14:17:38 <Kogut> @deadlock - yes 14:17:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Timur: imagine a station with 3 platforms, 2 platforms are filled with loading food, only one is available for dropping off grain. now imagine a 3rd food train occupying that 3rd platform, no grain can ever be delivered anymore 14:17:53 <Kogut> better station rating -> more cargo -> more fun 14:18:21 <Timur> That little red/green bar? 14:19:01 <Kogut> population reached 5,600 14:19:17 <V453000> pm: I almost figured :P 14:19:18 <Timur> My foodfactory staion is based on perpetual delivery, so that there's almost always one train ready to go. 14:19:41 <Timur> My population is still just under 3k 14:20:10 <Kogut> well, create 5 bus stations add service (I use 20 busses) and fast forward 14:20:12 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:20:22 <Kogut> 5,700 in 2012 14:20:25 <Timur> 20 busses? I have 3 :P 14:20:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Timur: you can solve this situation with waypoints like here: http://www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2024.%20Jan%201951.png ore trains take the right waypoint (from their view), and can reach all 3 platforms, steel trains take the left waypoint and can only reach two platforms 14:21:01 <norbert79> Timur: For one city of 3 stations I always start 4 buses, with a delay to each station, the forth one is going always around 14:21:34 <planetmaker> V453000, see, almost. Now you know :-P 14:21:36 * planetmaker hugs V453000 14:21:40 <Eddi|zuHause> => there can never be all 3 platforms occupied with steel trains 14:21:46 <norbert79> Timur: Sometimes I assign busses zones, where they can work 14:23:06 <Timur> @Eddi: Do you have one station for unloading and one for loading? 14:23:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Timur: in this picture, no. it's a combined station, but with two separate entrances 14:23:59 <Timur> Thats what i meant :P 14:25:14 <Kogut> @Timur and 6,000 in 2014 14:25:35 <Timur> I've played OTTD for a while, but my building skills are poor :P 14:25:50 <Timur> I'm at 2641 in 2007 14:26:00 <Timur> which is down 200 for the last year 14:26:19 <PeanutHorst> ARGH 14:26:30 <PeanutHorst> why is there such a thing as an "impossible track combination" when you're laying diagonal? 14:26:39 <V453000> :P 14:26:57 <PeanutHorst> as an engineering feat, it's quite possible and rather efficient 14:27:18 <norbert79> Timur: Play more online games when OTTD-ing, you can learn a few tricks from other players too 14:27:53 <Timur> I usually just play with friends or alone, mostly just for fun and while watching movies. 14:27:57 <planetmaker> PeanutHorst, on slopes 14:30:02 <norbert79> Timur: Not much to learn from that then... :))) 14:30:15 <Timur> Hehe, yes, I know. 14:31:11 <norbert79> Timur: http://norbert79.deviantart.com/gallery/26407951 - I know, I might have overdone this, but still might be worth taking a look... Haven't play this scenario for a long time though :( 14:32:15 <Timur> Thats a bit out of my league :P 14:32:33 <Kogut> @Timur - and I plan to make in next two years AI that will be able to create your network. Sometimes. On easy settings. And then it will be one the best available. 14:32:44 <PeanutHorst> planetmaker: no, that's "land sloped in wrong direction" 14:32:57 <norbert79> Kogut: Well, I am curious, so keep it up... :) 14:32:59 <PeanutHorst> i'm talking about putting ... say... a maglev and a conventional rail side-by-side 14:33:03 <Timur> @Kogut, in 2008 my town has decreased a further 100, down to 2500 14:33:21 <norbert79> Timur: Interest rates... Check acceptance ratings 14:33:39 <Timur> Where do i check that? 14:33:49 <norbert79> Timur: Click one station, and check your ratings 14:34:23 <Timur> Just over 50% in my main town. 14:34:35 <norbert79> Such a pity noone broadcasts any games, anywhere... :) 14:35:29 <Kogut> Well, there is possibility to enter as spectator into multilayer game 14:35:48 <norbert79> Kogut: Sure, but many tend just playing for themselves 14:36:09 <norbert79> Kogut: And opening a multiplayer game with maximum 1 player allowed isn't very well solved either :) 14:41:30 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... query tool doesn't mention railtype 14:41:34 <Eddi|zuHause> only speed limit 14:41:41 <norbert79> Love today's XKCD comic :) 14:41:44 <norbert79> Well done 14:43:18 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure i get it... 14:43:29 <norbert79> The ball is like the hourglass in Windows 14:43:39 <norbert79> it looks like a flame if you look long enough on it 14:43:46 <norbert79> Since Steve Jobs passed away... 14:44:42 <Sacro> wtf 14:44:44 <Sacro> xkcd on a thursday 14:44:52 <norbert79> Sacro: Why not? :) 14:45:06 <Sacro> norbert79: quite 14:45:08 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.185.169] has joined #openttd 14:45:08 <Timur> I guess its a special one, since Jobs passed. 14:45:44 <norbert79> Well, was expected... He resigned, his book was out... 14:46:00 <Timur> Yes, but there was hoping. 14:46:03 <norbert79> Sure 14:46:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd not have said hourglass, but rather the thingy that tells you youtube videos are buffering... 14:46:19 <norbert79> but since he got thinner with every year it started being obvious... :( 14:46:25 <Eddi|zuHause> but where do you see a flame? 14:46:45 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: never mind... Anyway, the thingy in youtube are circles in a circle form 14:47:00 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, round and turning... 14:47:58 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... is this my fault or NuTrack's fault? ICE1 goes on very high speed rail and very low speed rail, but not on medium speed rail 14:48:08 <planetmaker> well, it's the "busy, please wait" cursor 14:50:02 <Eddi|zuHause> ICE1 with 14 middle wagons has 910 capacity and is 12.7 tiles long 14:50:21 <Timur> @Kogut: My town is still not growing as much as yours. It peaked at 3200, and now in 2010 its at 2900 14:50:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Timur: then your bus service is not good enough 14:50:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Timur: need to visit the stations more often 14:51:07 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Does the track for your ICE go near Enschede? ;-) 14:51:11 <Timur> I've got 5 stations in the city, and busses coming and going the entire time 14:51:48 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: what would my ICE do in the netherlands? 14:51:51 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-94-112-27-44.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 14:52:01 <Eddi|zuHause> (unless you meant Eschede) 14:52:11 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Oops, yes, typo 14:52:24 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Because that would explain why it goes that slow :) 14:52:57 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: i didn't say it goes slow 14:53:20 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:53:23 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Lovely, I also misread you... I think I need a break for today... 14:53:31 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Had to re-read 14:54:48 <norbert79> See you all 14:54:50 *** norbert79 [~Norbi@deibp9eh1--blueice1n2.emea.ibm.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving for now. Bye everyone!] 14:59:45 <Timur> Is there somewhere I can check out some very good networks, yet simple enought so that I can replicate it. 15:00:52 <planetmaker> good or simple? ;-) 15:01:07 <Timur> Better than the crap i have :P 15:03:36 <planetmaker> I can only offer good and not simple :-) 15:03:45 <planetmaker> just from the link I posted earlier. 15:03:48 <planetmaker> it has over 200 savegames 15:04:09 * Terkhen never *really* needed anything besides three way junctions and once a simple four way junction 15:04:31 <planetmaker> 4-way tend to get very bulky and complicated :-) 15:04:36 <planetmaker> often two 3-way are easier :-) 15:04:40 <Terkhen> yes, it is best to avoid them 15:04:45 <Terkhen> it was on a small map IIRC 15:04:57 <Terkhen> therefore the 4 way junction was small and it didn't work anyways 15:05:02 <planetmaker> especially when talking about tracks with LL_RR or more per direction :-) 15:08:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i can only offer aesthetic, neither good nor simple 15:08:28 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:10:09 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: should we scrape 1lu of the ICE3 head, so a full ICE3 fits on exactly 6 tiles? 15:12:13 <Eddi|zuHause> 6 tiles = 6*32 = 196m, ICE3 length = 200m 15:12:25 <Timur> Yay! My town just reached 4k :) 15:12:57 <peter1138> m? 15:13:07 <peter1138> miles ;) 15:13:09 <Eddi|zuHause> meters, obviously 15:13:11 <peter1138> 6*32 is 192, btw 15:13:19 <Eddi|zuHause> whatever 15:13:26 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, that might be an idea 15:14:28 *** George is now known as Guest12763 15:14:32 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has joined #openttd 15:15:28 <Eddi|zuHause> don't know whether it is achievable to fit a full ICE1 in 12 tiles, it's 10lu longer 15:15:54 <Eddi|zuHause> but 12 tiles sounds like a more sensible measure than 13 tiles 15:17:45 <Eddi|zuHause> we need engines that are both dualheaded and articulated... providing the ICE1 as full articulated train is crazy 15:18:17 *** George is now known as Guest12764 15:18:21 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has joined #openttd 15:19:47 *** Guest12763 [~George@212.113.107.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:23:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Timur: this was my latest network: http://www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Loisachkirchen%20Transport,%205.%20Nov%201988.png (12MB) 15:23:47 *** Guest12764 [~George@212.113.107.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:25:32 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd 15:25:56 <supermop> good morning 15:27:17 <Timur> Well, I'm off. Thanks for the help guys. 15:28:05 *** Timur [~Timur@228.84-48-163.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: Bye for now!] 15:28:32 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@027af076.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 15:37:14 <b_jonas> I need three-way junctions, but I find it difficult to make them, because I have space constraints 15:37:47 <b_jonas> because I've generated the map with lots of industries and towns, everything is cramped 15:42:14 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 15:43:44 <peter1138> heh, google searches for "cheats" instead of "cets" 15:44:01 <peter1138> but it doesn't tell you its done the substitution 15:49:44 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 15:52:19 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 15:52:35 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-88-242.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 15:58:27 <Yexo> peter1138: it doesn't do that for me. I get "Child exploitation tracking system" and "copmuting and educational technology services" as results 1 and 2 15:58:54 * Prof_Frink copmutes Yexo 15:59:26 <peter1138> oh 15:59:32 <peter1138> oh "cets openttd" 16:00:21 <planetmaker> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/cets/nightlies/LATEST/ <-- peter1138 16:01:01 <Yexo> peter1138: at the bottom of the search results: "Tip: These results include the word "cheats". Show results that include only "cets"." 16:01:38 <planetmaker> bye for today 16:02:41 *** Firzen [~Neon@dslb-094-219-017-088.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 16:04:15 <peter1138> is it normally at the bottom now? 16:04:22 <peter1138> it used to be at the top 16:04:40 <peter1138> i.e. Did you mean: openttd 16:04:48 <peter1138> which is still there if you misspell something. hmm. 16:08:03 <Eddi|zuHause> it says "did you mean: cheats" at the top for me 16:09:07 <Eddi|zuHause> "Centre for European and Transition Studies - University of Latvia" 16:09:27 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-188-194.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:10:25 *** hanf [~Klaus@host-89-241-74-116.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 16:16:24 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #openttd 16:22:39 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 16:31:08 <peter1138> oh, it's you 16:36:02 *** Ryo [~rrgreen12@host86-154-71-209.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 16:36:14 *** Ryo [~rrgreen12@host86-154-71-209.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has left #openttd [] 16:48:26 *** Elukka [Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 16:49:09 *** Adambean` [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 16:52:31 *** TWerkhoven [~Turbulent@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 16:55:43 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:55:48 <Kogut> @Yexo - I finished my noai API patch, can you look at http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=44249&p=974385#p974385 ? 16:56:04 <Yexo> - * @param keep_rail Whether to keep the rail after removal. <- why do you remove that line? 16:56:06 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:56:21 <Yexo> the documentation of BuildRailWaypointTileRectangle is partly incomplete and partly wrong 16:56:30 <Yexo> * @pre IsRailTile(tile). <- that shouldn't be there 16:56:45 <Yexo> there should be something about requiring tile and tile2 to be in a straight line 16:56:59 <Yexo> ie either TileX(tile)==TileX(tile2) or TileY(tile)==TileY(tile) 16:57:17 <Yexo> you're using spaces instead of tabs for alignment 16:57:27 <Kogut> "- * @param keep_rail Whether to keep the rail after removal. <- why do you remove that line?" - it is fault of stupid diff generator 16:57:41 <Yexo> we have a nice template "swap" for swapping variables 16:57:44 <Kogut> "you're using spaces instead of tabs for alignment" - it is fault of forum 16:57:50 <Yexo> just call "swap(tile, tile2);" instead of doing it yourself 16:57:59 <Kogut> the documentation of BuildRailWaypointTileRectangle is partly incomplete and partly wrong <- I will fix it 16:58:09 <Yexo> if that's the case, please attach a diff isntead of including it in your forum post 16:58:21 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 16:58:42 <Yexo> your check for swapping is too complicated 16:59:04 <Yexo> the line "if (tile > tile2) swap(tile, tile2);" is enough 16:59:40 <Yexo> you need to make sure that both width and height are < 15 before calling DoCommand 17:00:15 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:01:26 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-044-189.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:01:47 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-095-033-158-091.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 17:06:02 <Kogut> should be fixed (except IsRailTile - it is again fault of stupid diff generator). 17:06:20 <Kogut> I will check new code with testAI and repost patch 17:06:42 <Kogut> @Yexo "5>..\src\ai\api\ai_rail.cpp(219) : error C3861: 'swap': identifier not found" 17:07:51 <Yexo> add #include "../../core/math_func.hpp" at the top 17:08:17 <Kogut> Swap is working 17:08:28 <Kogut> is it different function? 17:08:45 <Kogut> btw thanks for help 17:22:50 <Kogut> @Yexo also with "#include "../../core/math_func.hpp"" compiling resulted in 5>..\src\ai\api\ai_rail.cpp(220) : error C3861: 'swap': identifier not found 17:24:00 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host64-51-dynamic.15-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 17:24:15 <Yexo> the function in the stl is called "swap". OpenTTD has it's own version called "Swap" 17:24:52 <Wolf01> evenjobs 17:26:30 <Kogut> Swap changed behaviour of this function, with swap and mentioned include I am unable to compile 17:27:18 <Yexo> swap is from the stl, you'd have to include <algorithm> I think 17:27:34 <Yexo> math_func.hpp is already (indirectly) included or Swap wouldn't work either 17:29:18 <Kogut> and with my idiotic swap variable everything is working 17:34:11 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 17:39:17 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 17:39:21 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 17:43:33 *** Devroush [~dennis@ip-83-134-138-210.dsl.scarlet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:45:14 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r23007 /trunk/src/lang/welsh.txt: 17:45:14 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:45:14 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: welsh - 52 changes by kazzie 17:46:41 <Kogut> @Yexo tile > tile2 is not the same as AIMap::GetTileY(tile)-AIMap::GetTileY(tile2)>0 || AIMap::GetTileX(tile)-AIMap::GetTileX(tile2>0) 17:47:31 <Yexo> actually it is (as long as tile and tile2 are in a straight line) 17:49:55 *** KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-8-68-209.as43234.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:01:59 <peter1138> heh, whatever happened to the openttdcoop ts server? 18:04:08 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f68d6.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 18:05:33 <TWerkhoven> ts? 18:06:28 <Yexo> teamspeak? 18:06:38 <TWerkhoven> ah 18:16:25 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@i59F6DE4B.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 18:18:16 *** DDR [~DDR@142.179.78.88] has joined #openttd 18:21:38 *** KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-8-68-209.as43234.net] has joined #openttd 18:23:12 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.185.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:26:20 <Kogut> @Yexo - there is new version ( http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=44249&p=974404#p974404 ) 18:26:50 <Kogut> ooops, wrong file 18:28:15 *** hanf [~Klaus@host-89-241-74-116.as13285.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:30:32 <Kogut> @Yexo - now I uploaded correct file 18:30:47 *** Bjarni [~Bjarni@0x573c4281.espnqu1.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd 18:30:50 *** mode/#openttd [+o Bjarni] by ChanServ 18:31:58 <Yexo> EnforcePrecondition(false, abs(AIMap::GetTileX(tile)-AIMap::GetTileX(tile2)) < 15); <- space too much before "abs" and there have to be spaces around the minus 18:32:31 <Yexo> and I'm missing a precondition "TileX(tile) == TileX(tile2) || TileY(tile) == TileY(tile2)" 18:33:55 <Yexo> * @pre GetRailTracks(tile_in_rectangle) == RAILTRACK_NE_SW || GetRailTracks(tile) == RAILTRACK_NW_SE. <_ if you document it as @pre, it should give a PreconditoinError when it fails 18:34:03 <Yexo> you don't check for it in the function, so don't document it as @pre 18:34:12 <Kogut> OK 18:34:14 <Yexo> perhaps use @note or just put it in the description 18:34:31 <Yexo> * @exception AIError::ERR_FLAT_LAND_REQUIRED <- I don't think you can actually get that error 18:34:32 <Kogut> and I add abs(AIMap::GetTileY(tile) - AIMap::GetTileY(tile2)) < 15) as @pre 18:34:39 <Yexo> you should check which errors you can get and mention those 18:34:52 <Kogut> OK 18:35:12 <Yexo> there is still stray documentation changes for RemoveRailWaypointTileRectangle 18:37:15 <Kogut> So I should describe possible errors using @exception 18:37:20 <Rubidium> isn't it "can be built"? 18:42:26 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 18:48:56 *** JVassie [~James@2.30.129.177] has joined #openttd 19:09:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a feeling startup is faster in versions before the startup gui was introduced 19:10:43 <Alberth> the magic of a progress bar :) 19:16:29 <Rubidium> nah, the cost of progress 19:17:50 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r23008 /trunk/src/spriteloader/png.cpp: -Add: Palette detection and conversion for the M part of 32bpp sprites. 19:24:11 <Eddi|zuHause> http://www.lolroflmao.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/nofriends.png 19:28:46 <Rubidium> :D 19:28:59 <Kogut> @Yexo - OK, now it should be better ( http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=44249&p=974404#p974404 ) 19:31:31 <Rubidium> + * @param tile One corner of the rectangle to clear. 19:31:36 <Rubidium> I hope you're not clearing them 19:31:47 <Rubidium> + * @pre width or rectangle == 1 || height of rectangle == 1 19:31:51 <Rubidium> s/or/of/ 19:32:51 <Rubidium> then there's the inconsistency with ending lines of the documentation; always add a period 19:33:01 <Kogut> clear -> "cover with waypoints" (?) 19:33:02 <Rubidium> + * @return Whether the rail waypoint(s) has been/can be build or not. 19:33:13 <Rubidium> s/build/built/ 19:33:42 <Eddi|zuHause> how about a filter on the purchase list by model name? 19:34:10 <Rubidium> Kogut: sounds okay 19:35:15 <Rubidium> although I wonder whether it would, consistency wise, be better to mimic the station building API 19:35:29 <Kogut> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=44249&p=974404#p974404 <- reuploaded 19:35:33 <Rubidium> i.e. northern tile and then building X "platforms" 19:36:39 <Kogut> well, AFAIK it is supposed to mimic normal interface 19:37:00 <Rubidium> and "normal" refers to what? 19:37:09 <Kogut> used by humans 19:37:55 <Kogut> Yexo said that it also should include limitations, like width == 1 || height == 1 19:38:16 <Kogut> but I can change it 19:38:34 <Rubidium> well... I'm just wondering 19:39:07 <Rubidium> but the interface used by humans sets a begin point and then allows you to build N tiles perpendicular to the clicked tile 19:39:37 <Rubidium> which would be more like selecting a tile and then saying it's N wide (has N "platforms") 19:41:14 <Kogut> hm, maybe. I will ask Yexo 19:43:51 <Yexo> minicing the station interface sounds like a good idea 19:44:05 <Yexo> with the difference that the direction would be inferrred from the direction of the track 19:44:33 <Kogut> OK 19:45:36 <Kogut> so now we will have static bool BuildRailWaypointTileRectangle(TileIndex tile, int length, StationID waypoint_id); 19:45:50 <Rubidium> s/length/width/ 19:47:59 <Kogut> maybe size? 19:49:37 <Yexo> size is too generic, it's really the width here, or num_platforms if you want to be really consistent with stations 19:49:47 <Yexo> but a waypoint doesn't really have "platforms" 19:50:18 <Kogut> num_waypoints? 19:50:48 <Yexo> it are not differnet waypoints 19:50:54 <Yexo> it's one waypoint with multiple ?? 19:51:02 <Yexo> what for stations would be platforms 19:53:05 *** supermop_ [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd 19:53:23 <Kogut> num_gates (??) 19:53:23 <supermop_> hi 19:53:37 <Kogut> hi 19:53:49 <Yexo> ok for me 19:53:56 <Kogut> @Yexo - num_parts 19:53:57 <Yexo> if(tile<tile2)Swap(tile, tile2); <- missing some spaces 19:54:48 <Yexo> and it's the wrong way around 19:55:00 <Yexo> it's more logical to make sure that tile < tile2, so the check should be the other way around 19:55:12 <Kogut> if (tile < tile2) Swap(tile, tile2); 19:55:14 <Yexo> byte height = -(AIMap::GetTileY(tile2)-AIMap::GetTileY(tile))+1; <- also wrong 19:55:32 <Kogut> is it space friendly? 19:55:35 <Yexo> the maximum difference can't fit in a byte 19:55:58 <Kogut> anyway, now this will be deleted 19:56:00 <Yexo> it should be: int height = AIMap::GetTileY(tile2) - AIMap::GetTileY(tile) + 1; 19:56:25 <Kogut> as num_parts / num_gates is introduced 19:56:30 <Yexo> Kogut: see http://wiki.openttd.org/Coding_style 19:56:50 <Kogut> and I think that num_parts is better, there are newgrf waypoints without gates 19:57:14 <Yexo> why not make it "width" as rb suggested? 19:57:15 *** dageek [~dageek@2001:8b0:ff85:0:223:32ff:fec9:1f10] has joined #openttd 19:57:19 <Kogut> and anyway - is it doable to make BuildNewgrfWaypoint? 19:57:27 <Yexo> no 19:57:58 <Kogut> there are width and height in CmdBuildRailWaypoint function 19:58:10 <Kogut> and I prefer to avoid confusion 19:58:34 <Yexo> those are internal variables, you can rename those 19:58:41 <Kogut> as width from ai may turn out to be height in CmdBuildRailWaypoint function 19:58:46 <Yexo> the parameter names are more important as they are visible in the documentation 19:59:21 *** Devroush [~dennis@ip-83-134-138-210.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #openttd 20:00:47 <Kogut> is it ok to use int? I see uint32 everywhere 20:01:16 <__ln__> how long have you felt you see uint32? do they follow you? 20:01:28 <Yexo> yes, int it ok 20:02:29 *** perk11 [~perk11@188.255.47.217] has joined #openttd 20:05:00 <Kogut> @__In__ It is coming! 20:05:05 *** Kogut [d586afe1@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 20:05:49 *** GhostofKogut [d586afe1@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 20:07:17 <Bjarni> GhostofKogut: 0x274EB831 20:07:24 <__ln__> Bjarni! 20:07:42 <Bjarni> I see.... the uint32 are really following him :p 20:08:01 <Bjarni> yeah I'm back home again 20:08:37 <Bjarni> and I have a travel story to tell you guys 20:08:47 <Bjarni> involving trains 20:08:53 * __ln__ prepares the popcorn 20:09:08 <Bjarni> I took a train from Hamburg towards Bremen 20:09:17 <Bjarni> during rush hour on a weekday 20:09:19 <Bjarni> it was packed 20:09:27 <Bjarni> and the locomotive broke down 20:09:28 <Bjarni> big time 20:09:45 <Bjarni> and blocked the westbound track between the two cities 20:09:55 <Bjarni> not good, specially not at a time like that 20:10:17 <Bjarni> we waited 10 minutes, then two repairguys showed up 20:10:25 <Bjarni> and fixed the locomotive in 15 minutes 20:10:57 <Bjarni> and the train could continue like nothing happened (just 25 minutes late) 20:11:32 <Bjarni> because of the magic of switching trains I ended up being 15 minutes late at my final destination :) 20:12:35 <Bjarni> I wonder how many places will send repaircrews to broken trains with such a short notice 20:12:40 <Bjarni> err 20:12:44 <Bjarni> *respondtime 20:12:50 <__ln__> you seem to have developed a positive habit to visit germany on a regular basis 20:12:51 <Sacro> Bjarni! 20:13:15 <Bjarni> Sacro! 20:13:22 <Bjarni> that wasn't fun 20:13:26 <Bjarni> Bjarni! 20:13:34 <Bjarni> not that much fun either 20:14:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni: try that scenario again after there was 20cm of new snow that day :p 20:14:28 <Bjarni> <__ln__> you seem to have developed a positive habit to visit germany on a regular basis <--- well... when you have stuff to do, you go where it's has to be done 20:14:41 <GhostofKogut> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=44249&p=974404#p974404 <- YA version of patch 20:15:00 <Bjarni> I have yet to try a vacation in Germany 20:15:42 <GhostofKogut> after this change code etc is really better 20:15:49 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause: it's actually strange. The weather was awesome this time. Sunny and between 20 and 29°C 20:15:54 <Bjarni> no wind 20:15:59 <Bjarni> for two weeks 20:16:05 <Sacro> @seen Bjarni 20:16:05 <DorpsGek> Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 5 seconds ago: <Bjarni> for two weeks 20:16:09 <Eddi|zuHause> yep, was obscure weather :p 20:16:10 <Bjarni> and it turned bad and rainy on the day I left 20:16:16 <Eddi|zuHause> but today the wind started 20:16:34 <Eddi|zuHause> typical fall-storms 20:17:38 <Bjarni> btw the locomotive which broke was a BR 146 (I think) 20:18:08 <Bjarni> Metronome... that company is actually interesting 20:18:12 <Eddi|zuHause> obviously new engines break down more often than old ones :p 20:18:41 <Bjarni> they drive those big trains between Bremen, Hamburg, Uelzen and so on 20:18:59 <Bjarni> yet I found brand new Desiro DMUs in Metronome livery 20:19:09 <Bjarni> that puzzled me 20:19:26 <__ln__> metronom actually 20:19:30 <Eddi|zuHause> that might have been the new S-Bahn Bremen 20:19:34 <__ln__> http://www.trainslide.com/hoch_fotos/529ewd-bahnhof-lauenbrueck.jpg 20:19:50 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip4.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 20:19:57 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 20:20:15 <Bjarni> <Eddi|zuHause> that might have been the new S-Bahn Bremen <--- and they were parked in Soltau? I don't think so 20:20:31 <Eddi|zuHause> Metronom also manages some branch lines 20:20:46 <GhostofKogut> @Yexo - is it good moment to create a ticket for this patch? 20:21:01 <Bjarni> Metronom is partly owned by OHE, which is quite active in Soltau 20:21:12 <Bjarni> OHE = Ost Hannover Eisenbahn 20:22:22 <b_jonas> I wonder how complicated it would be to have an UI to allow doing train depot operations (sell whole, sell part, buy wagons, buy engine, refit, leave depot) while the train is not yet in the depot, in which case it will go to depot and then perform those operations; 20:22:41 <b_jonas> plus a way to repeat the same operations on multiple trains. 20:23:01 <Alberth> the UI is the simple part 20:23:13 <Bjarni> you mean kind of like a button on a train stating "goto depot and sell itself"? 20:23:15 <Alberth> the tricky part is the underlying command stuff 20:23:47 <b_jonas> Bjarni: yes, but not just sell but also more complicated commands, like renew to this engine (possibly multiple engines), or remove a passenger car and add a mail car instead. 20:23:56 <Eddi|zuHause> the only thing that is currently implemented is "stop in depot" 20:24:02 <Bjarni> I did something a bit like that for autoreplace 20:24:11 <Yexo> GhostofKogut: you might as wel keep updating your version in the forum 20:24:15 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: 'refit to x' also works 20:24:20 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, yes 20:24:24 <Bjarni> some actions are automated once a vehicle enters a depot 20:24:28 <Yexo> instead of posting there you could have created a ticket when you started 20:24:36 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: that plays into the idea of shunting, etc. 20:24:37 <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: actually "send to servicing" is also implemented I think 20:24:57 <Bjarni> but to link a specific train to custom orders like that.... tricky 20:25:20 <b_jonas> Bjarni: NO NO, I don't want scheduled orders 20:25:32 <b_jonas> only manual commands executed _once_ 20:25:32 <Bjarni> I know 20:25:54 <Bjarni> but you give the commands, the game stores them and executes them once they enters a depot 20:26:11 <b_jonas> Bjarni: yes, and also sends train to depot 20:26:17 <Bjarni> and those commands are linked to just one vehicle, not all vehicles of ID x 20:27:04 <Alberth> b_jonas: there have been several discussions, mostly in connection with groups, although you could consider them separate. See http://wiki.openttd.org/Requested_features/Reworked_groups for a collection to start 20:27:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Netz_der_metronom.svg 20:27:38 <Alberth> of course, groups make it more complicated 20:27:48 <Bjarni> I have been wondering about the remove mail wagon issue a few times 20:28:02 <Bjarni> there is a reason why I didn't "just write it" ;) 20:28:22 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 20:29:32 <b_jonas> I'd mostly such a feature this for renewing and for selling the whole vehicle 20:29:52 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause: and as you can see Metronom doesn't send trains to Soltau. It's grayed out on that map, yet they were all parked there 20:30:01 <b_jonas> (obviously this would not be restricted to trains, it would make sense for all type of vehicles) 20:30:17 <Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni: the map is from 2007, so maybe something changed 20:30:44 <Bjarni> DB operated the passengers, OHE operated the freight trains 20:31:37 <Bjarni> but I read something about Desiros driving between Soltau and Buchholz from november 20:31:43 <Bjarni> I just thought it should be DB 20:32:06 <Bjarni> but the only text on them was "Niedersachen" 20:32:18 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 20:35:30 <Bjarni> https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-hhNax-zExfU/Thti2LBE14I/AAAAAAAAAJw/2xKHBB1iczk/11.07.11%2B-%2B1 <--- just like that one except "ist am Zug" wasn't there 20:35:45 <Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landesnahverkehrsgesellschaft_Niedersachsen 20:35:51 <Bjarni> same yellow paint, the horse and letters were the same 20:36:16 <Eddi|zuHause> the horse is the sign of Niedersachsen 20:36:42 <Bjarni> I know 20:36:51 <Bjarni> I have seen it plenty of times 20:36:56 <Bjarni> on flags and stuff 20:37:09 <Bjarni> it's on plenty of houses too 20:37:12 <Bjarni> normal houses 20:37:17 <Bjarni> they add horses 20:39:15 <__ln__> i think Eddi's link from last night is relevant here: http://einestages.spiegel.de/hund-images/2011/10/04/7/6ce89a52343eb2666534cda7539fea72_image_document_large_featured_borderless.jpg 20:40:04 <Bjarni> haha 20:40:06 <Bjarni> good one 20:42:13 <Eddi|zuHause> that's in the capital of mongolia :) 20:42:43 <Bjarni> red and blue 20:42:56 <Bjarni> Japan used to use blue instead of green 20:43:10 <Bjarni> they changed that, though it should still be possible to find blue trafficlights 20:43:33 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-28-107-172.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 20:44:33 *** Firzen [~Neon@dslb-094-219-017-088.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.] 20:45:25 * Bjarni just looked at pictures 20:45:50 <Bjarni> the train in question does infact say LNVG 20:45:59 <Bjarni> with small letters 20:46:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni: since Metronom only rented the locomotives, they also carry the LNVG colours 20:46:26 <appe> wordfeud? 20:49:11 <Elukka> "The Applied Levitation SPM Maglev system is inter-operable with steel rail tracks and would permit maglev vehicles and conventional trains to operate at the same time on the same right of way. MAN in Germany also designed a maglev system that worked with conventional rails, but it was never fully developed." 20:49:12 <Elukka> weird 20:50:01 <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't sound that obscure... 20:51:46 <Bjarni> sounds reasonable to me 20:52:03 <Bjarni> it would even make trackplanning easier 20:52:40 <Bjarni> like in OTTD, a track could be maglev and electrified at the same time 20:52:55 <Bjarni> could solve some issues when moving from one system to another 20:53:19 <Eddi|zuHause> that exists already 20:53:35 <Eddi|zuHause> it's called "universal railtype" and is available in the fruit storage of your trust 21:03:26 *** mikethete [~mikethete@70-100-79-107.br1.sma.wv.frontiernet.net] has joined #openttd 21:04:18 <frosch123> night 21:04:23 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f68d6.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:09:22 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause started talking about fruitcake and the channel died :p 21:12:47 *** dageek [~dageek@2001:8b0:ff85:0:223:32ff:fec9:1f10] has quit [Quit: dageek] 21:12:58 *** DDR [~DDR@142.179.78.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:17:19 <__ln__> Bjarni: start talking about history 21:21:25 <Bjarni> hehe 21:21:44 <Bjarni> that's actually tricky to honour such a request 21:23:19 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: do you watch the vehiclevars patch building? 21:23:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: that kinda became obsolete 21:23:39 <Ammler> last working version was r22990 21:24:00 *** DDR [~DDR@142.179.78.88] has joined #openttd 21:24:09 <Ammler> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/openttd-vehiclevars/testing/ERROR/ <-- error logs 21:24:38 <Ammler> well, then it might make sense to remove the repo 21:24:54 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, can you do that for me? 21:25:14 <Ammler> yep, I will 21:36:15 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:42:15 <b_jonas> wait, so oil refineries have invisible squares and you need to cover those squares to accept mail? 21:42:19 <b_jonas> funny 21:42:54 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-94-112-27-44.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:43:44 <b_jonas> so there's exactly one square in an oil rig that accepts mail, and exactly one that accepts passengers? 21:44:54 <Eddi|zuHause> they're not invisible, just the rig is not fully covering these with graphics 21:45:50 <b_jonas> and apparently oil rigs only have two squares that accept oil 21:48:19 <b_jonas> apparently a power station also only has one square that accepts coal, and a saw mill has two squares accepting wood, but factories and steel mills accept cargo on all squares 21:48:55 <b_jonas> all this for compatibility with ttdpatch 21:52:32 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:52:38 <Eddi|zuHause> what has compatibility with ttdpatch to do with this? 21:54:15 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1A13E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:57:26 *** KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-8-68-209.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:00:27 <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: I presume that's why it works this way 22:00:40 <b_jonas> you know, savegame compatibility 22:00:44 <Wolf01> 'night 22:00:48 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host64-51-dynamic.15-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 22:00:59 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a genuine game feature... has nothing to do with compatibility 22:01:03 <Prof_Frink> b_jonas: Not ttdpatch. Not even TTD. 22:01:09 <b_jonas> back when openttd was started, developpers tried to make it very similar to ttd 22:01:21 <Prof_Frink> It's been like that since TT. 22:01:31 <Prof_Frink> Back when openttd was started it *was* ttd. 22:01:47 <b_jonas> it was a clone of ttd, yes 22:03:08 <glx> acceptance is exactly like in TTD 22:04:42 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: just because it was never changed, doesn't mean it is "for compatibility" 22:04:51 <Bjarni> I always found this feature quite annoying 22:05:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni: make a GRF that changes it :) 22:05:23 <Bjarni> that would be annoying for me as well :p 22:05:35 <b_jonas> wasn't the fact that power stations accept part of Passenger even declared a bug at some point? 22:06:07 <Eddi|zuHause> plenty of people have declared plenty of things 22:06:48 *** TWerkhoven [~Turbulent@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:07:06 <supermop_> people have to work at the power plant 22:07:10 <Bjarni> declarations by random people on the forum shouldn't be read as facts 22:07:11 <b_jonas> no wait, that's my mistake 22:07:21 <b_jonas> it was something different that was declared a bug 22:07:22 <b_jonas> sorr 22:26:22 *** GhostofKogut [d586afe1@ircip4.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 22:37:36 *** MNIM [~mBuntu@ip5452ffad.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #openttd 22:39:12 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has left #openttd [] 22:40:53 <Elukka> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/ff/Ge_4-4_III_651.jpg 22:41:00 *** DDR_ [~DDR@142.179.78.88] has joined #openttd 22:41:11 <Elukka> that center buffer looks almost like the classic HO couplers... 22:41:17 <Elukka> at a glance, anyhow 22:42:23 *** DDR [~DDR@142.179.78.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:42:24 *** DDR_ is now known as DDR 22:42:33 <Eddi|zuHause> not like any i have ever seen 22:45:47 <Elukka> hmm. it's the mÀrklin coupler hooks it makes me think of 22:45:49 <Elukka> remove the two upper prongs 22:47:10 <Elukka> some older and cheaper locomotives came with (still do) with couplers that lack a loop 22:48:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i once had one of those, that only had a "proper" coupler at the tender 22:52:36 <Elukka> i'm shocked to find the old start set br 89 with coupler hooks actually has NEM sockets 22:56:50 <Bjarni> ahh the wonders of track maintenance 22:57:09 <Bjarni> there is something right outside with an idle diesel engine and it goes bum bum bum 22:57:16 <Bjarni> somewhat annoying 22:57:42 <Bjarni> I opened the window and the guys outside talked with each other and I could make out "it's too short" and stuff like that 22:57:50 <Bjarni> this might be a long night 22:57:54 <Eddi|zuHause> "Guest to waiter: Hey, my coffee is cold" 22:58:00 <Bjarni> I can skip even trying to sleep in this noise 22:58:06 <Eddi|zuHause> "waiter: well, if you want something warm, you should order a beer" 22:58:21 <Bjarni> hehe 22:58:47 <Bjarni> ohh... they started using a crane.. something happens 22:58:48 *** supermop_ [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has left #openttd [] 22:58:49 <Bjarni> good 22:59:04 <Bjarni> the question is... for how long? :/ 22:59:55 <Bjarni> <Eddi|zuHause> "waiter: well, if you want something warm, you should order a beer" <--- I have relatives who ages ago headed beer on the stove 23:00:09 <Bjarni> but it wasn't beer like the kind you can buy today 23:00:22 <Elukka> http://www.modellbau-scheilo.de/DrehscheibenGrube.CrashModellUndOrginal.1823.JPG 23:00:26 <Bjarni> and it was several decades ago 23:00:27 <Elukka> that locomotive looks like it's giving you the finger 23:00:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni: they have been depicted in asterix? 23:00:53 <Bjarni> lol 23:01:08 <Elukka> http://www.modellbau-scheilo.de/HPschussBehand.JPG 23:01:17 <Elukka> i very much want to know how he painted the tracks... i can't get anything half as neat 23:01:22 <Bjarni> oh good. A petrol powered rotary saw for cutting rails 23:02:18 <Bjarni> <Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni: they have been depicted in asterix? <--- no but I think it did take place like in the 1930's 23:02:30 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: so someone built a model of a real life train crash? :p 23:02:45 <Elukka> yeah 23:03:01 <Elukka> http://www.modellbau-scheilo.de/ 23:03:08 <Elukka> that's probably my favorite model railway i've seen 23:03:13 <Elukka> only on the internet sadly 23:03:20 <Bjarni> in Denmark resistance didn't want the Germans to use the Danish trains. At night they sneaked into the roundhouses in Copenhagen and set the engines to drive 23:03:35 <Bjarni> all the turntables ended up like that and all the engines were trapped inside 23:03:53 *** JVassie [~James@2.30.129.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:04:09 <Bjarni> turned out to be efficient 23:04:32 <Elukka> the tracks, ballast and lighting are the greatest mysteries to me, on that site 23:04:57 <Elukka> the lighting looks so much like sunlight, it's probably one of the main factors why it looks so good 23:05:15 <Bjarni> photoshop :p 23:05:23 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:06:11 <Bjarni> oh a diesel once ended up in a turntable pit in Copenhagen 23:06:21 <Elukka> photoshop won't do it 23:06:41 <Bjarni> somebody forgot to pull the mechanical brake before leaving and as the air went out of the brake system then.... you know :p 23:06:48 <Elukka> you can fix up the white balance, but a photo in bad lighting still doesn't look good no matter how much you photoshop it 23:07:55 <Bjarni> I know 23:07:59 <Bjarni> I was joking 23:08:06 <Bjarni> those photos look good 23:08:07 <Elukka> heh 23:08:13 <Elukka> i've been considering daylight lamps but i dunno how much they'd do 23:12:25 <Eddi|zuHause> "Freitag, der 7.Oktober 111" 23:12:36 <Bjarni> 111 23:12:45 <Eddi|zuHause> y2k bug!!! 23:12:47 <b_jonas> where does it say that? 23:12:49 <Bjarni> damn timemachine fucked up again 23:13:03 <Eddi|zuHause> on the page that Elukka posted 23:15:58 <Eddi|zuHause> "three in an office and one works. what is this?" 23:16:11 <Eddi|zuHause> "three public servants and one ventilator" 23:17:10 <Bjarni> I saw that ferry thing on Norwegian TV. People showed up on the harbours when they knew TV was coming (go figure) 23:17:51 <Eddi|zuHause> what ferry thing? 23:17:59 <Bjarni> two girls were holding a big sign saying something like "we can't stay here all day. People would think we were public servants" 23:19:16 <Bjarni> <Eddi|zuHause> what ferry thing? <--- http://www.nrk.no/hurtigruten/ 23:19:24 *** perk11 [~perk11@188.255.47.217] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 23:19:46 <Bjarni> understanding Norwegian helps a bit :p 23:19:51 <z-MaTRiX> :) 23:19:54 <z-MaTRiX> clear;e=eval\ ;p=printf\ ;x="$e$p$";u=USER;n=NAME;r=$(stty -g);stty raw -echo;read -sn1 -p \[$($x$u)@$(${x}HOST$n):~\]$\ ;a="The Matrix has you now $(grep $($x$u$n) /etc/passwd |awk -F: '{print }')...";while [ "$a" ];do $p\%c "$a";a=${a:1};sleep .$(($RANDOM*20));done;stty "$r";$p\n 23:20:27 <Bjarni> basically it's a 134 hour video stream of a ferry going from A to B 23:20:48 <Bjarni> From Bergen along the coast almost all the way to Russia 23:22:11 <Bjarni> z-MaTRiX: I don't dare to enter that 23:22:23 <z-MaTRiX> ;>> 23:22:27 *** Adambean` [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing] 23:22:31 <Bjarni> for some reason it tells me that you could take over my computer 23:22:37 <z-MaTRiX> looks little cryptic 23:23:56 <Eddi|zuHause> you must use encode() and stuff to make it more cryptic 23:24:08 <Eddi|zuHause> waay too much plain text 23:24:30 <glx> especially the a part :) 23:24:39 <glx> it tells too much ;) 23:25:39 <Eddi|zuHause> "why are the chinese small and yellow?" "if they were big and yellow, they would be mail trucks" 23:25:41 <z-MaTRiX> hah you'r right 23:26:13 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause: that one works better in countries with yellow mail trucks.... such as Germany 23:26:18 <Eddi|zuHause> (that probably only works in countries where the mail is yellow) 23:27:29 <Bjarni> oh dear. The politicians in Denmark are still debating 23:27:36 <Bjarni> they started at 9 or 10 23:27:51 <Eddi|zuHause> "the soothsayer meeting is cancelled due to unforseen events" 23:28:06 <Bjarni> meaning they have been debating for like 15 hours strait 23:28:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni: are they done forming a govermnent yet? 23:28:29 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause: haha... awesome way to lose customers :D 23:28:52 <Bjarni> <Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni: are they done forming a govermnent yet? <--- sort of... but it's wicked 23:29:24 <Bjarni> basically parlament has 179 seats, meaning majority is 90+ votes 23:29:29 <Eddi|zuHause> as long as it works better than in belgium :p 23:29:44 <Bjarni> the new government is basically just one party with like 15-20 seats 23:30:24 <Bjarni> with support for parties which wants the opposite politics 23:30:41 <Bjarni> meaning 2 or 3 parties goes against their own politics 23:31:22 <Bjarni> and those parties have declared they will not do a single thing of all the stuff they promised during the election campaign 23:32:06 <Elukka> bjarni: i followed the ferry stream 23:32:07 <Bjarni> btw there is something weird about the government thing 23:33:10 <Bjarni> when I was in Germany Bild wrote that the new government had canceled the new boarder control law and that people should no longer show passport to enter Denmark 23:33:14 <Bjarni> two issues: 23:33:26 <Bjarni> 1: the new government wasn't formed at the time 23:33:43 <Bjarni> 2: the law in question didn't force passport control 23:33:55 <Bjarni> oh and btw they haven't actually done anything yet 23:34:18 <Eddi|zuHause> a major german politician once said something like "it is unfair to demand politicians after the election stick to what they promised before the election" 23:35:08 <Eddi|zuHause> Bild is not exactly the bright spot in investigative journalism :p 23:35:29 <Bjarni> but who informed them? 23:35:41 <Bjarni> I don't think they made it up themself 23:37:49 <Bjarni> btw even though that law is in effect right now I haven't actually seen any Danish custom workers or police at the border 23:37:56 <Bjarni> while in Germany... 23:38:13 <Bjarni> police has been present with 2-3 cars every time I arrived 23:38:34 <Bjarni> the police watched me board the ferry when I left the first time 23:38:51 <Bjarni> the 2nd time custom workers were on the train and questioned everybody 23:39:05 <Bjarni> they approached me twice 23:39:22 <Eddi|zuHause> "i haven't slept in days" - "aren't you really tired then?" - "no, i sleep well in nights" 23:41:18 <Bjarni> basically they were active all the way from LÌbeck to Puttgarten. Two men for a single ICE-TD set (4 units) 23:41:39 <Bjarni> that's like 15 minutes for each car 23:41:56 <Bjarni> and the train was less than half full 23:43:50 <Bjarni> great statement from the new government 23:45:24 <Bjarni> "The voters showed they don't want politicians who does as they promise during their campaign. Please stop trying to do so" (said to the last government) 23:47:02 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:47:33 <Bjarni> so basically she orders another party (political enemy) not to follow their political goals and not to do as they told the voters they wanted to do 23:48:17 <Bjarni> that would be like Gordon Brown telling Cameron that he should stop being honest with the people 23:48:30 <Eddi|zuHause> in berlin the first attempt at forming a government failed, because both parties insisted on doing as they campaigned ;) 23:48:36 <Bjarni> (I don't know if Cameron is honest or not. It was an example) 23:48:48 <Bjarni> and that's the problem 23:49:10 <Bjarni> here one party wants lower taxes, specially for high income people 23:49:27 <Bjarni> the communists totally refuse that 23:49:36 <Bjarni> yet they formed a government together 23:50:02 <Bjarni> the government is two days old now 23:50:16 <Eddi|zuHause> that was fun in the german 2005 elections: one party wanted to raise tax by 2%, the other party wanted to not raise the tax. the result was that they raised the tax by 3% 23:50:29 <Bjarni> they already lost a vote in parliament because disagree internally 23:50:59 <Bjarni> and today one party started talking about pulling their support from the government 23:51:24 <Bjarni> had they actually done that then the government would have been the shortest lived one in Denmark ever 23:51:26 <Bjarni> two days! 23:51:53 <Bjarni> but it will die soon.... most likely 23:52:15 <Eddi|zuHause> there were plenty of short-lived governments in germany from 1919 to 1933 23:53:01 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-28-107-172.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:53:16 <Bjarni> one party talked about pulling their support. 3 parties made the agreement to form the government, but two of them has plenty of people who talks like they could pull support from their own party 23:53:25 <Eddi|zuHause> it was so bad that the president had to use a paragraph for emergency laws to pass legislation, because the parliament was hung 23:53:59 <Eddi|zuHause> (that was a major part in anti-democratic extremists gaining power) 23:54:47 <Bjarni> the communists and the burning of the Reichstag didn't help either 23:55:10 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but by then it was already too late 23:55:32 <Bjarni> in 1920 the Danish king fired the prime minister and forced a new election 23:55:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i think in the 15 years of the weimar republic, only one government managed to pass through a full 4 year term 23:56:02 <Bjarni> because the government had refused the offer to get Schleswig-Holstein back 23:56:22 <Bjarni> the allies offered it to Denmark because Germany lost and Germany needed a punishment 23:56:31 <Bjarni> the government said no 23:56:55 <Bjarni> the allies made a compromise where the people should vote which country they wanted to be with 23:57:36 <Bjarni> the Danish government went to Schleswig and made a campaign stating they were the government and that Denmark didn't want them. They wouldn't get the right to vote and stuff like that 23:57:47 <Bjarni> they voted to belong to Germany because of that 23:57:59 <Bjarni> and the king was furious because of this incident 23:58:08 <Bjarni> and so was the Danish polulation 23:58:30 <Bjarni> and the government lost big time in the following election 23:58:46 <Eddi|zuHause> interesting... 23:59:10 <Eddi|zuHause> but afaik a small part of schleswig was returned to denmark in that election 23:59:27 <Bjarni> the party which was behind this happens to be the party which gained the real power in the new government 23:59:33 <Bjarni> the current one