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00:04:45 *** Strid_ [~Strid@c-40c3e455.04-372-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #openttd 00:08:26 *** Strid [~Strid@c-4cc7e455.04-372-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:19:32 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r23073 /trunk/.hgignore: -Update: Add another generated file to .hgignore. 00:21:03 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r23074 /trunk/src/ (13 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: Add Vehicle::GetEngine() to simplify code. 00:21:46 *** SirSquidness [~sirsquidn@zomg.dongues.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:22:02 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-007-155.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 00:23:11 <Elukka> there's 7 billion people now 00:23:30 <Elukka> 12 years back there were 6, 12 (a bit less or a bit more depending on how things go) years from now there'll be 8 billion 00:23:32 <Elukka> this will end well 00:23:36 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r23075 /trunk/src/ (17 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Add GetGRF() and GetGRFID() methods to Engine and Vehicle to simplify code. 00:24:18 <planetmaker> late-night-grf-code-spree 00:26:16 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r23076 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Codechange: Separate code for NewGRF and default refit masks more strictly. 00:29:00 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r23077 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Change: [NewGRF] Enforce that the default cargo type of a vehicle is one of the refittable cargos in case of refittable engines. 00:32:28 *** SirSquidness [~sirsquidn@zomg.dongues.com] has joined #openttd 00:41:04 *** kaparen [~aabbcc@c-2467e455.94-17-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:43:27 <frosch123> night 00:43:30 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f5cfd.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:45:44 *** supermop_ [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 00:49:47 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 01:25:32 *** Devroush [~dennis@ip-213-49-91-51.dsl.scarlet.be] has quit [] 01:52:14 *** Chruker [~no@5634a56d.rev.stofanet.dk] has quit [] 03:06:06 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:8de2:4faa:5401:cb98] has quit [Quit: bye] 03:26:59 *** rhaeder [~quix0r@dslb-094-221-157-223.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 03:31:27 *** perk11 [~perk11@188.32.29.238] has joined #openttd 03:31:41 *** rhaeder1 [~quix0r@dslb-088-076-110-139.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:27:42 *** perk11 [~perk11@188.32.29.238] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 04:54:55 *** blotek [~blotek@adkm233.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:57:49 *** supermop_ [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: supermop_] 05:55:54 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B75EC7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:56:19 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B73E84.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 06:01:55 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 06:14:13 *** Elukka [Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:14:25 *** Elukka [Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 06:16:11 *** mib_q66xgc [63b7c028@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 06:16:38 *** mib_q66xgc [63b7c028@ircip1.mibbit.com] has left #openttd [] 06:40:00 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 06:55:34 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e0a9627.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:18:12 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-007-155.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 07:28:42 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 07:38:30 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 07:47:30 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1AE06.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 07:49:00 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-112-26.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 07:51:23 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@ip-86-49-59-25.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 07:52:36 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-178-004-178-007.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 07:54:00 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-187-164.w109-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:03:10 <planetmaker> moin 08:10:52 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 08:20:07 *** kaparen [~aabbcc@c-2467e455.94-17-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #openttd 08:49:36 *** DDR_ [~chatzilla@142.179.78.88] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 7.0.1/20111008085652]] 08:50:38 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-007-155.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 08:53:46 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-192-16.w109-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 08:58:29 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-112-26.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:58:30 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-60-17.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 09:02:02 <dihedral> greetings 09:02:29 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-192-16.w109-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:11:37 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1AE06.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:13:35 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 09:18:58 <Terkhen> good morning 09:20:49 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip3.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 09:55:41 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 1024**2/64/60/60 09:55:41 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 4.55111111111 09:57:57 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 10:02:45 <Terkhen> meh, they killed google reader 10:06:26 <Borgso> Didnt they merge it into Google+? 10:06:48 <Terkhen> exactly 10:07:03 <Terkhen> well, only the "share" part 10:07:07 <Terkhen> which is why I used it 10:15:25 <planetmaker> but google+ is no option as long as they claim to enforce a real name policy 10:18:12 <Rubidium> how can they even enforce such a policy? 10:18:15 <Terkhen> also, spamming google reader with a lot of stupid things from internet is different than spamming google+ 10:18:21 <Terkhen> and IIRC they stopped doing that, but I'm not sure 10:18:29 <Rubidium> how can they disprove that you are normally called planetmaker by your friends? 10:18:41 <planetmaker> Rubidium, enforce or whatever. They seemed to have canceled accounts on the suspicion of non-real names 10:18:55 <planetmaker> Well. In a certain part of the world I am. 10:18:59 <planetmaker> obviously 10:19:40 <Rubidium> just transcribe it in Katakana and see whether they make an issue of it ;) 10:20:17 <planetmaker> Terkhen, but my understanding is that with google+ you could add those people interested in that to the 'spam me with article info 'circle' 10:20:29 <planetmaker> hehe, Rubidium :-) 10:20:41 <planetmaker> I guess I'll rather become Arno Nonymus ;-) 10:20:53 <planetmaker> easier to type for me :-P 10:21:35 <Terkhen> planetmaker: I have not checked google+ much, but to me it seems that the internet stupidities would appear in the main page for those people, mixed with all the other stuff 10:21:38 <Terkhen> spammy 10:22:49 <planetmaker> I don't quite no. As I'm not on google+ I didn't check it out in detail either. 10:22:55 <planetmaker> s/no/know/ 10:40:20 *** kaparen [~aabbcc@c-2467e455.94-17-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:58:26 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-43-4.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Quit: c('~' )o] 10:59:19 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [] 11:07:47 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-43-4.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 11:07:50 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 11:13:43 *** SirSquidness [~sirsquidn@zomg.dongues.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:21:18 *** SirSquidness [~sirsquidn@zomg.dongues.com] has joined #openttd 11:24:44 *** Starhero [~ANONYMOUS@pool-173-72-40-104.cmdnnj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 11:24:57 <Starhero> What is the major thing that lags OTTD? 11:25:14 <Starhero> Seems i start a map..and eventually i get lag... 11:25:20 <Starhero> I load the save later..no lag for a bit 11:25:25 <Rubidium> AIs 11:25:31 <Starhero> Ah... 11:25:50 <b_jonas> I haven't seen any lag in ottd so far 11:25:52 <Starhero> That is what I thought...but i shot them down with the console and I still get lag. 11:26:03 <b_jonas> (but then I'm using a nice fast computer hardware) 11:26:10 <Starhero> So am i 11:26:12 <Yexo> do you get constant lag or every now and then? 11:26:19 <Starhero> quadcore 3 ghz 11:26:23 <Yexo> how big is the map, and how many vehicles are there in total? 11:26:38 <Starhero> I dont think gfx card matter haha but i have a 46se 11:26:45 <Starhero> 460se 11:26:48 <Yexo> the "quadcore" bit of that is irrelevant, for major calculations openttd only uses a single core 11:26:50 <Starhero> largest... 11:26:52 <b_jonas> Starhero: also enough ram, and no other tasks that use the cpu and ram heavily? 11:27:05 <Starhero> 4 gigs of ram ..kinda lacking on that front 11:27:09 <Yexo> b_jonas: ram is kind-of irrelevant, seeing how little ram openttd acutally uses 11:27:38 <b_jonas> probably 11:27:48 <Starhero> also i know to close tasks..I even set ottd to high priority 11:27:56 <Yexo> Starhero: how many vehicles are there on the map? 11:27:57 <planetmaker> my FF uses about 10x as much as openttd does 11:28:01 <planetmaker> (ram) 11:28:23 <planetmaker> and what's the map size? 11:28:31 <Starhero> 2048x2048 11:28:39 <planetmaker> uh... as big as one can get. 11:28:44 <Starhero> I know... 11:28:51 <Starhero> I like it :P 11:28:53 <planetmaker> Then only a few hundret vehicles might give you a lag 11:29:10 <planetmaker> especially if you use ships without many buoys 11:29:21 <Starhero> ahh so it is pathfinding 11:29:34 <b_jonas> the classic ttd map is 256x256, right? 11:29:40 <planetmaker> not only. But it's one part. Yes, it is 11:29:52 <planetmaker> and it has very cheap, very bad path finder 11:30:49 <b_jonas> from my experience, it's not only the vehicles but also the zoomed out graphics that can cause ttd/ttdpatch to lag 11:31:03 <b_jonas> also it lags at startup 11:31:10 <Starhero> oh i stay zoomed in as much as possible 11:31:45 <Starhero> but if the map and veh. is the lag...then there goes my goal of trasnporting everything on this map :'( 11:33:29 <Starhero> I figured it might have been NARS"s "Use fine scale graphics" option so ...to test..I did something crazy...ready? I CHANGED parameters WHILE THE GAME WAS RUNNING! OH NOES!...i backed up my save and READ THE BIG RED BOX FIRST. 11:33:58 <Starhero> ofc had to edit cfg for tha 11:34:42 <Starhero> is there a way of seeing FPS or compute fps? 11:36:42 <planetmaker> no. But there'll not be more fps than 1/0.03 11:38:18 <Starhero> Yeah just wanted a way of gauging my lag..and what options could change it.. 11:38:34 <Starhero> anything but lowering my map size :'( 11:38:53 <b_jonas> Starhero: using fewer vehicles 11:39:02 <Starhero> not so easy. 11:39:05 <b_jonas> and less ships 11:39:06 <Starhero> but will try 11:39:14 <Starhero> i don't use boats or planes at all 11:39:23 <Starhero> nor is anyone else it seems. 11:39:24 <b_jonas> planes aren't a problem 11:39:37 <b_jonas> they don't really need a pathfinder because there aren't areas they can't fly over 11:39:49 <Starhero> AI or players..(this WAS multi player but everyone left so i went offline for a bit. 11:41:24 <planetmaker> less vehicles. Esp. less ships. Less junctions for trains. No industry or vehicle NewGRFs. Switching off "full details" and "full animation" 11:41:37 <planetmaker> reducing the window size you use 11:53:44 *** blotek [~blotek@acra206.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 11:59:40 <TrueBrain> NOTICE: openttd.org now has a valid certificate; you no longer should be getting nagscreens from CACert when connecting over a secured layer to any of our services ;) 12:00:20 <Rubidium> I already never got those nagscreens 12:00:50 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: you would be one of the few. CACert should be in nobodies valid CA root, as they explicitly tell that they don't want to be there :) 12:00:55 <TrueBrain> so your distro/browser is in violation ;) :P 12:03:40 <Rubidium> where do they explicitly tell that? They even have a license for the root key 12:07:01 <TrueBrain> the last audit they got, they stopped midway with the remark they don't want to be a valid root CA just yet 12:08:42 <TrueBrain> any inclusion by any distroy/browser is optional, and purely on their own idea, as CACert still didn't do the required Audit 12:09:49 <TrueBrain> and CACert is doing the mozilla audit atm, which is a very very slow process 12:10:16 <TrueBrain> http://wiki.cacert.org/InclusionStatus and http://wiki.cacert.org/AuditToDo and their maillist for more information 12:10:39 <TrueBrain> it has to be strongly noted here that CACert did not pass ANY audit as of far, and should NOT be a valid RootCA :) But okay .. :) 12:15:26 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r23078 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix (r23077): default ships carrying passengers and oil were suddenly only able to carry coal 12:19:36 <TrueBrain> magic! 12:23:09 <Ammler> TrueBrain: why do you use wildcard cert but still have all ssl websites stay in one home (secure) 12:23:44 <TrueBrain> Ammler: because people tend to type https://www.openttd.org/ 12:23:51 <TrueBrain> and SANs are very expensive 12:24:08 <Ammler> SANs? 12:24:54 <Ammler> but https://wwww.openttd.org is also valid else it wouldn't work 12:24:57 <TrueBrain> Alternative Naming, the certificates we used before 12:25:11 <Ammler> (the forward to secure) 12:25:33 <TrueBrain> exactly; that is why we have a wildcard 12:25:44 <Ammler> but then why forward to secure? 12:25:52 <TrueBrain> because we do 12:26:59 <Ammler> ok, that's a reason too :-P 12:28:00 <TrueBrain> yeah; something we can talk long about, or short, but it just is :) 12:28:35 <Ammler> well, for me it looks more complicated than easy to setup that way 12:28:54 <TrueBrain> the mistake you make here, is that this setup is already in place 12:29:03 <TrueBrain> and if we would be to make any chance, it would take a lot of time 12:29:19 <Eddi|zuHause> <TrueBrain> Ammler: because people tend to type https://www.openttd.org/ <-- that may very well be an automatic process, like "user typed http, let's try https first" 12:29:23 <Ammler> ok, true :-D 12:29:24 <TrueBrain> a general rule: if it aint broken, don't fix it :) 12:29:54 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: long live Firefox plugins ;) 12:30:20 <Ammler> the rule of lazy sysops and managers without money 12:30:46 <TrueBrain> Ammler: holds in general; and if you are going to fix it, make sure you have a test setup first 12:30:59 <TrueBrain> in modern IT, it is impossible to keep up with all the new stuff 12:31:16 <TrueBrain> if you would try, you would never maintain, but always work to improve (by your suggestion, that would be required :P) 12:31:33 <TrueBrain> as there is always something new, somethng better, something ... 12:32:19 <TrueBrain> a stable system is most often much better than a 'correct' system, by what-ever definition ;) 12:32:23 <MNIM> ubuntu doesn't have long term support releases for nothing 12:33:03 <TrueBrain> MNIM: by wording of Ammler, Ubuntu has either lazy sysops or don't have money :D 12:33:06 <TrueBrain> hihihihi :D 12:33:09 <TrueBrain> now I am just teasing Ammler :P 12:33:32 <MNIM> you mean companies who use ubuntu? 12:33:35 <MNIM> probably, lol 12:33:45 <TrueBrain> no, Ubuntu itself :P They have a long term support release :P 12:33:48 <Ammler> MNIM: long term support is the opposite of what we speak here 12:34:03 <TrueBrain> it has old software, not up-to-date FHS, ... ;) 12:34:06 <TrueBrain> which is exactly what we talk about :) 12:34:14 <MNIM> lol 12:34:17 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: "long term" for ~5% of the relesae 12:34:18 <MNIM> well 12:34:27 <TrueBrain> they only include new versions if security is compromised 12:34:34 <TrueBrain> so they too work on the "if it aint broken, dont fix it" rule ;) 12:34:41 <MNIM> yeah, even it's standard, 'up to date' releases features old software, true 12:34:43 <Ammler> TrueBrain: they fix a running system 12:34:53 <TrueBrain> Ammler: that suggests our https schema is broken? 12:34:55 <TrueBrain> as it is not 12:34:57 <TrueBrain> just not what you want it to be :) 12:35:09 <Ammler> no, never said it is broken 12:35:13 <MNIM> but really, would it hurt to have an up-to-date gimp in ubuntu? 12:35:18 <TrueBrain> fix is the inverse of broken, is it not? :D 12:35:25 <TrueBrain> MNIM: yes 12:35:26 <TrueBrain> it would 12:35:28 <TrueBrain> :D 12:35:30 <MNIM> or a current openttd? 12:35:39 <Ammler> not really TrueBrain 12:35:47 <MNIM> or, *gasp* a modern firefox!? 12:35:53 <TrueBrain> Ammler: without joking, I am just pointing out that it is better to have things stable, then have things 'up to date' to what ever standard :) 12:35:53 <Ammler> how else can you fix a working system? 12:36:18 <TrueBrain> which any sane sysop does, lazy or not :) 12:36:21 <planetmaker> a working system doesn't need fixing. It needs changes or updates 12:36:27 <planetmaker> (if it does) 12:36:30 <MNIM> truebrain: I don't even mean unstable releases. 12:36:46 <TrueBrain> MNIM: 'stable' is such a tricky word :) 12:36:53 <MNIM> well, true :P 12:37:19 <MNIM> but if you were giving attention to that, you might as well just run windows 2000 12:37:29 <TrueBrain> hehe 12:37:31 <TrueBrain> yes :) 12:41:22 <Ammler> TrueBrain: btw. is the cert free, never found other than startssl for free 12:41:50 <planetmaker> it's not 12:41:58 <z-MaTRiX> :) 12:42:30 <z-MaTRiX> sed can filter a chatlog and note replacements have been made 12:42:34 <z-MaTRiX> sed -En 's/(.){3,}//g;T ex;s/.*/c:&/;:ex;s/(.{3,}){2,}//g;T ey;s/.*/w:&/;:ey;p' <<< 'lala!'$'\n''laaaaalaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!'$'\n''la la la la la!' 12:43:17 <TrueBrain> z-MaTRiX: seriously, who is your audiance with all those seds and bash scripts? 12:44:00 <z-MaTRiX> well i only use linux, and like to do things with bash, and coreutils 12:44:13 <TrueBrain> but why share it with us? :P 12:44:44 <z-MaTRiX> you like windows i guess 12:44:53 <TrueBrain> lol; bold conclusion 12:45:13 <TrueBrain> so if you don't appreciate your endless seds and bash scripts, you have to like Windows ... 12:45:13 <planetmaker> I mostly guess that TB likes a high SNR 12:45:58 <Eddi|zuHause> "for some people it's a regexp, for others it's the longest smilie of the world" 12:46:12 <TrueBrain> anyway, z-MaTRiX, what I meant to say: can you please stop with useless seds and bash scripts unelss they are somewhat related? :) 12:46:12 <z-MaTRiX> ;> 12:46:36 <z-MaTRiX> well it can be used to parse redundant data from a chatlog for example 12:46:49 <z-MaTRiX> (flood) 12:46:56 <TrueBrain> can anyone in this channel raise his hand if he things that is useful, or trusts the above sed in any way? :) 12:47:22 <planetmaker> s/ngs/nks/ ;-) 12:47:29 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: oops :D 12:48:01 <Ammler> TrueBrain: good example for your speach "better stable as up-to-date" was noai.o.o :-P 12:48:01 <TrueBrain> and nice pun planetmaker :D 12:48:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i found that last sed useful :p 12:48:11 <TrueBrain> Ammler: huh? 12:48:42 <planetmaker> hehe :-) But I'll keep my hands down, failing to see context 12:48:55 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: yeah, I hope z-MaTRiX got the hint ;) :P 12:52:09 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-178-004-178-007.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.] 13:02:32 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1AE06.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 13:15:42 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:6497:838:b997:a136] has joined #openttd 13:15:45 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 13:21:52 <Starhero> is the absolute latest ottd precompiled? Or would i have to fight with a C++ compiler..and header files..and *screams in agony and asks why ppl use C++ when C# ...or HELL JAVA...can make more sense and have the same power* 13:22:22 <Starhero> Key word..."can" 13:24:19 <Rubidium> Starhero: there is no "latest" 13:25:05 <Rubidium> there are at least 4, of which 3 are precompiled but you can reach only 2 precompiled versions 13:26:11 <Yexo> hmm, 4? 13:26:16 <Yexo> stable, nightly, head and? 13:28:06 <Rubidium> 1.1 head 13:28:12 <Yexo> ah 13:28:13 <Rubidium> (although you might add testing as well) 13:28:30 <Rubidium> which would make it 5 13:28:32 <Yexo> I did think about testing, but we currenctly don't have that 13:28:35 <Rubidium> and resp. 4 and 3 13:29:39 <Yexo> Starhero: you'll find http://wiki.openttd.org/FAQ_OpenTTD_versions very informative 13:30:30 <planetmaker> " when C# ...or HELL JAVA...can make more sense and have the same power*" <-- I'm sure this statement can be backed-up by facts ;-) 13:30:45 *** Elukka [Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 13:30:53 <planetmaker> especially in the context of cross-platform portability ;-) 13:31:17 <planetmaker> and speed 13:32:48 <Rubidium> not to mention that porting 300.000 lines of code is not something I fancy doing 13:32:55 <planetmaker> :-) 13:33:08 <Rubidium> especially when it means you can't copy the majority of the code directly 13:33:21 <planetmaker> Well, the forum just has a new guy who wants to write all this stuff from scratch. So volunteers are abundant ;-) 13:33:38 <Yexo> the forum has such a guy every few months 13:33:43 <Yexo> the resuls however... 13:33:51 <planetmaker> yup. That's why volunteers are abundant ;-) 13:34:32 <planetmaker> results... that's something different... did they volunteer to produce results? 13:35:54 <TrueBrain> cubicals! 13:36:14 <planetmaker> 3D! xml! 13:36:25 <TrueBrain> (did that make me look really cool and knowing?) 13:36:38 <MNIM> ...no 13:36:44 <TrueBrain> darn :( 13:36:46 <planetmaker> ...yes! 13:36:55 <TrueBrain> <3 planetmaker 13:37:53 <TrueBrain> Starhero: and I guess it depends on your definition of the word 'sense' .. to me C# makes no sense at all .. :D 13:38:26 <Eddi|zuHause> we should have a 3Dxml! 13:38:40 <Yexo> TrueBrain: you forgot so say it will solve all problems with openttd 13:39:16 <planetmaker> only those problems? :-( 13:39:49 <planetmaker> I thought it'd bring world peace. Finally 13:41:29 <TrueBrain> that 2012 will do 13:41:30 <TrueBrain> or 2038 13:41:32 <TrueBrain> or 2011 13:41:35 <TrueBrain> well, pick a date 13:41:37 <b_jonas> also, real time! oriented! paradigm! 13:42:01 <planetmaker> http://www.looneylabs.com/games/chrononauts <-- date doesn't matter. Just patch time appropriately 13:43:07 <TrueBrain> if you can't fix it 13:43:10 <TrueBrain> go back in time 13:43:11 <TrueBrain> :D 13:43:17 <planetmaker> yup :-P 13:43:26 <TrueBrain> and if you can't win: cheat! 13:43:29 <TrueBrain> now off for a meeting 13:44:32 <planetmaker> best card in that game is "Your Parents Never Met" ;-) 13:45:35 *** kaparen [~aabbcc@c-2467e455.94-17-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #openttd 13:55:11 *** snorre_ [~snorre@c1A0FBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #openttd 13:56:58 *** snorre [~snorre@c1A0FBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:57:23 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-75-99.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 14:03:33 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-43-4.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:12:26 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 14:13:13 <Eddi|zuHause> mÀh, i should really start learning for my next exam 14:15:14 <Rubidium> pff... 14:15:24 <Rubidium> can't you just pass it without learning? 14:15:40 <Rubidium> or didn't you take enough colleges? 14:24:41 <Eddi|zuHause> i did... 5 years ago... 14:46:16 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has joined #openttd 14:56:40 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 15:02:16 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-167-53.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 15:08:03 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-75-99.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:22:21 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B73E84.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:22:43 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B73E84.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 15:45:38 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590ff59c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 16:01:19 *** enr1x [~kiike@62.57.225.29.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #openttd 16:03:07 *** enr1x_ [~kiike@62.57.225.29.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:04:23 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 16:18:20 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r23079 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix (r23077): Retain original behaviour in a silly corner case, which saves us making the specs even more convoluted. 16:19:51 <Starhero> okay...so i just saw a youtube vid where a guy had a mod called..cargodist...but I dont see that in the content..How many other mods are there that are not in bananas? 16:20:29 <frosch123> there are different types of "mods" 16:21:07 <frosch123> bananas holds only NewGRFs which are easy to install, and usable with stable versions 16:21:25 <Eddi|zuHause> what you search for are "patches", see: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewforum.php?f=33 16:21:29 <frosch123> other "mods" are not compatible to stable openttd versions, and require advanced user skills 16:23:09 <planetmaker> or even programming skills :-) 16:23:09 <Starhero> Advanced as in gameplay or installing? As long as nothing is actually a COMPILE..I can move files around edit crap in files..I just HATE HATE HATE compiling C++ crap...I am a C# dev. and normally when you get source for C# you can click compile and have a few easy to fix problems or non at all..I have NEVER compiled something that I haven 16:23:11 <Starhero> t 16:23:28 <Starhero> made with C++ that has worked right 16:23:47 <planetmaker> you said so before. It won't change a thing, though 16:23:56 <planetmaker> (and it's your loss) 16:23:57 <frosch123> patches involve compiling, unless there are precompiled binaries 16:24:03 <frosch123> which are only available in rare cases 16:24:34 <Starhero> Ugh..is there a guide on setting up an eviroment? 16:24:43 <Starhero> I would like to try some.. 16:24:44 * planetmaker wonders though what's difficult about installing a few libs and typing ./configure && make 16:24:55 <Terkhen> Starhero: compiling C# with MSVC is identical to compiling C++ with MSVC 16:25:05 <Terkhen> MSVS* 16:25:21 <Starhero> but 99% of the time i can't wrap my head around w/e settings I need to get crap to compile that OBVIOUSLY compiles on others computers... 16:25:25 <Terkhen> so I don't understand the hate against C++ :P 16:26:07 <planetmaker> Starhero, if it works for others and not for you I'd take my bet where the problem is ;-) 16:26:16 <Terkhen> you will run into the same problems with C# as soon as you want to use some code that is not included in the default library 16:26:20 <Starhero> Besides the actual syntex? Dot operator (and slight cross platform) FTW 16:26:46 <Terkhen> cross platform? did I miss something? 16:26:54 <planetmaker> haha :-) 16:27:19 <Starhero> mono? I mean you still can make some things on linux/unix 16:27:27 <Starhero> sure gui isn't that great... 16:27:29 <Terkhen> did you try it? 16:27:32 <planetmaker> and android? iOS? FreeBSD? 16:27:34 <planetmaker> DOS? 16:27:37 <planetmaker> OSX? 16:27:41 <Terkhen> to my knowledge, mono has a windows version too 16:27:49 <Starhero> Didn't I say slight? 16:27:59 <Terkhen> that makes me suspicious of the feasability of porting stuff from "true" C# to mono 16:28:14 <Terkhen> anyways, your issues are not language related, they are related to how projects with lots of dependencies are built 16:28:34 <Starhero> Honestly..I am not as knowledgable as I wish to be in pretty much anything... 16:28:48 <Starhero> http://ewos.codeplex.com 16:28:49 <Terkhen> OpenTTD has a openttd_useful package that makes things simpler, just follow the tutorial on the wiki 16:28:58 <Starhero> that is the only ...decent thing I have made 16:29:01 <Starhero> with help... 16:29:06 <Terkhen> or, if you can't be bothered to compile, download the binaries 16:29:12 <Terkhen> both cargodist and yacd have them available IIRC 16:29:22 <Terkhen> you just need to browse the forums and find them 16:29:27 <planetmaker> yup. Both outdated ;-) 16:29:43 <Terkhen> well, unless you are willing to code updated version you can't solve that with compiling either 16:29:58 <Terkhen> a updated version* 16:30:01 <planetmaker> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/?C=N;O=A <-- actually both have their "official" binaries hosted there 16:30:17 <planetmaker> but as said... outdated by several weeks at least. Rather months 16:30:23 <Terkhen> months, yup 16:30:38 <planetmaker> June... 4 months 16:30:44 <Starhero> hmm so...blah 16:30:51 <Starhero> no point i gues 16:31:01 <planetmaker> "stable" OpenTTD is similarily "outdated" 16:31:15 <Starhero> that is what i have been using ofc 16:31:18 <planetmaker> with more bug fixes, though 16:31:22 <planetmaker> thus not that old :-) 16:31:59 <Starhero> what is really changed with the lastest non stable? 16:32:03 <planetmaker> thus if you don't care about the bug fixes... 16:32:04 <Terkhen> outdated as in "I can't play without the new features in trunk" 16:32:13 <planetmaker> ^ yup. Thx. Terkhen :-) 16:32:14 <Starhero> (and calling anything stable is a lie) 16:32:19 <Terkhen> Starhero: there is no comprehensive list 16:32:43 <Terkhen> just check the revision log or wait for the changelog of the future 1.2.0 version 16:33:06 <Starhero> if you don't mine...link me to the revision log? 16:33:10 <Starhero> *mind 16:33:42 <Terkhen> http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/ 16:33:51 <Starhero> thanks 16:34:02 <Terkhen> you are interested in the ones tagged as "Feature" and sometimes "Add" 16:36:06 <Starhero> and would my current grfs work in a compile of the latest? 16:37:47 <Terkhen> unless they are incorrect, yes 16:39:47 <Yexo> http://rbijker.net/openttd/misc/changelog.txt is updated to quite recent with only features 16:40:09 <Terkhen> oh, nice :) 16:40:45 <Terkhen> lots of NewGRF stuff 16:42:58 *** blotek [~blotek@acra206.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:47:48 <Eddi|zuHause> "H.264 decoder implemented in javascript" (http://www.golem.de/1110/87409.html) 16:50:28 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e0a9627.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 16:50:41 <Terkhen> that code must be scary :P 16:51:39 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r23080 /trunk/src/ (25 files in 2 dirs): -Feature: [NewGRF] Use variable 10 to enable vehicle GRFs to draw different sprites on the map and in various GUIs. 16:52:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: apparently it's not self-written code, but instead compiled 16:52:54 <Terkhen> oh, I wasn't aware you could do that with javascript 16:53:24 <Eddi|zuHause> you can do that with any language 16:53:29 <Eddi|zuHause> i do that with nml! :p 16:53:43 <frosch123> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action2/Vehicles#Introduction <- would that be an appropiate place to state the meaning of var10 for vehicle drawing? 16:53:53 <frosch123> or does anyone know a better one? 16:54:34 <Eddi|zuHause> shouldn't that go into VarAction2? 16:55:08 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-178-004-178-007.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 16:55:21 <Terkhen> I understood you wrong then, I meant that I did not know that javascript code could be compiled 16:55:34 <Terkhen> but probably you meant compiled from one language to another 16:55:54 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: yes, i meant compiled from another language into javascript 16:56:34 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: it is a cb specific variables. for real callbacks it is mentioned on the cb page; for station foundations it is mentioned in action 0 description where the foundations are enabled 16:57:39 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, then explain it in Action2, and in VarAction2 make a list of all possible meanings (with links to the appropriate detailed description)? 17:02:42 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 17:07:06 <Starhero> CIA? Coding in action? :P 17:08:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Starhero: we mentioned allah and bombs too often, now they are openly monitoring our actions 17:10:13 <Prof_Frink> Let's bomb allah! 17:13:14 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 17:14:37 <Eddi|zuHause> different topic: greece makes a great demonstration why free market and democracy are contradicting philosophies 17:19:39 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 17:23:31 *** ProfFrink [~proffrink@5e0a9627.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 17:24:20 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-006-224.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 17:24:46 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e0a9627.bb.sky.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:24:46 *** ProfFrink is now known as Prof_Frink 17:24:57 *** heffer_ [~felix@hyperion.fetzig.org] has joined #openttd 17:26:11 *** heffer [~felix@hyperion.fetzig.org] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 17:26:12 *** Pinkbeast [damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:28:10 *** Pinkbeast [damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk] has joined #openttd 17:28:44 *** blotek [~blotek@acra206.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 17:39:10 *** JVassie [~James@2.27.86.17] has joined #openttd 17:46:26 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@vpn91.ext.espci.fr] has joined #openttd 17:50:46 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 17:58:22 *** TheMask96 [~martijn@sloth.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:02:24 *** TheMask96 [~martijn@gluttony.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 18:02:27 *** valhalla1w [~valhallas@vpn91.ext.espci.fr] has joined #openttd 18:05:00 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@vpn91.ext.espci.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:13:42 <TrueBrain> OpenDUNE is proud to inform you they just released version 0.7 :D 18:17:15 <b_jonas> hmm, is anyone still working on the prince of persia clone? 18:19:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i never finished prince of persia 1 18:22:41 <Eddi|zuHause> prince of persia 2 was fun. we lost so much time on that bridge :) 18:23:00 <Rubidium> now we're only waiting till GRFCodec is proud to inform there is a new build of a nightly (as would ttdpatch I guess) 18:23:36 <Rubidium> that reminds me... michi_cc, grfcodec's nforenum likes some patching 18:24:33 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: but that is not under my control to influence in any way ;) 18:25:48 <Rubidium> then whom's influence is it? 18:26:09 <z-MaTRiX> :) 18:26:09 <TrueBrain> the author of grfcodec? :P 18:26:12 <b_jonas> I love prince of persia 1. I completed it multiple times, including once in a single run without cheating. 18:26:14 <z-MaTRiX> rasterized 1M pixel radius circle in haskell 18:26:33 <b_jonas> And there are very few video games I've ever completed. 18:27:03 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: I guess a build plan was meant ;-) 18:27:15 <planetmaker> anyway, bbl 18:27:19 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: he should have said so :) 18:27:23 <b_jonas> Though I also like the Commander Keen series a lot 18:27:31 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: so I can just mess with bamboo till it works? 18:27:44 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I seriously didn't catch on at all you were talking about the compile farm 18:28:05 <TrueBrain> (no joke, I seriously didn't catch that part) 18:28:08 <Rubidium> sorry ;) 18:28:21 <b_jonas> actually, Commander Keen 1--3 shares at least one thing with Prince of Persia: they both have a very strange control system that you have to get used to, otherwise you can't jump and land where you want. 18:28:33 <TrueBrain> and if you have a working jail for TTDp ..... 18:28:51 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: for which targets do you want grfcodec, and what is its source? 18:29:46 <planetmaker> all targets :-) 18:29:50 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: windows-win9x(-ish), call it windows-win32 but built with gcc, linux-generic-i686 and linux-generic-amd64 should be enough 18:29:58 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: ubuntu? debian? :P 18:30:35 <Rubidium> there are no debian packaging files, so those can't be built 18:30:52 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: source is at http://hg.openttdcoop.org/grfcodec 18:30:54 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: do you want a nightly + testing + release for grfcodec, or just a subproject under OpenTTD? 18:31:08 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 18:31:29 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: is testing regression, or RC candidates? 18:31:35 <TrueBrain> regression 18:31:40 <TrueBrain> non-uploading comiples 18:31:46 <Rubidium> in any case, nightly + release would be enough as there are no regression tests (yet) 18:31:58 <TrueBrain> well, not regression as regression-test 18:32:02 <TrueBrain> but just a compile, to see if it all works 18:32:06 <TrueBrain> like ... Testing atm 18:32:15 <TrueBrain> (I was naming the current subprojects of OpenTTD ;) 18:32:15 <Rubidium> oh, that would be nice 18:32:49 <Rubidium> nightly -> binaries.openttd.org/extra/grfcodec-nightly" target="_blank">binaries.openttd.org/extra/grfcodec-nightly, releases -> binaries.openttd.org/extra/grfcodec 18:33:03 <frosch123> [19:19] <Eddi|zuHause> i never finished prince of persia 1 <- with the cheat i succeeded 18:33:14 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: no mac version? 18:33:40 <b_jonas> it's easy with the cheat: you just skip to the last level then just run to the arms of the princess 18:34:11 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: they seem to have never been built, so from my POV it's not needed 18:34:30 <TrueBrain> nightly at 21:00? 18:34:33 <Rubidium> though maybe someone else fancies putting in the effort to support Mac out of the box 18:35:00 <Rubidium> http://wiki.openttd.org/Compile_Farm says it ran at 03:00 18:35:16 <TrueBrain> 0300 it is 18:36:18 *** z-MaTRiX [~matrix@index.linuxsecured.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:36:51 *** LordAro [56951cd4@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 18:36:58 <LordAro> evening 18:37:08 <Rubidium> evening 18:37:16 <LordAro> web hosting. thoughts? 18:37:27 <Rubidium> zernebok? 18:37:30 <Zuu> I've reed in the commit logs lately about several interesting new NewGRF features :-) 18:37:32 <Prof_Frink> Bokbok. 18:38:09 <Zuu> LordAro: Depends on what you want to host. 18:38:30 <TrueBrain> I wouldn't start a webhosting company; there are enough of them already 18:38:39 <Zuu> Just another random hobby project or something that requires some kind of updtime? 18:38:59 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: your correct answer should have been ovh.de. This was a test! 18:39:08 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-60-17.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:39:28 <LordAro> :P 18:39:40 <Prof_Frink> TrueBrain: Yes, but do you know how much Rudgikins pays us to say Zernebok? 18:39:41 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: running plan ...... no clue if it will work correctly :D 18:40:09 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: so far compile-errors 18:40:27 <LordAro> basically, i (would like) an area that i can install my own stuff in 18:40:34 <TrueBrain> the board is red! 18:40:58 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: you never compiled grfcodec with buildbot, did you? :D 18:41:07 <Rubidium> no 18:41:12 <TrueBrain> boost is missing 18:41:16 <Rubidium> yep 18:41:16 <TrueBrain> and 'hg' in the windows machine 18:41:23 <TrueBrain> would you be able to install hg on the windows? I can install boost :) 18:41:24 <Rubidium> shall I install it on the linux machines first? 18:41:33 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4db0f7aa.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 18:41:40 <TrueBrain> the windows is also missing boost btw 18:41:49 <Rubidium> boost on windows is a PITA 18:41:54 <Rubidium> but I'll try 18:41:59 <TrueBrain> please do; I will fail horribly :D 18:42:07 <TrueBrain> I can do Linux, I know how Linux owrks :D 18:42:12 <Rubidium> about one million header files fracking stuff up 18:42:24 <Rubidium> (stuff being Windows' performance) 18:42:59 <TrueBrain> ugh ... too many boost shit ... 18:43:04 <TrueBrain> libboost-all-dev ? :) 18:43:39 <Rubidium> that ought to be more than enough 18:43:41 <Zuu> hg is surely installable in Windows, but that was maybe not the question. 18:43:51 <Rubidium> don't know which ones are actually needed 18:44:08 <TrueBrain> me neither; so we just install all :P 18:44:33 <TrueBrain> Achievement unlocked: solving problems 18:44:34 <michi_cc> Rubidium: http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/patches/nforenum_4b.patch 18:44:34 <TrueBrain> :D 18:45:22 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: hmm... guess what typing hg in mingw gives me on the CF? 18:45:33 <TrueBrain> *clueless* 18:46:08 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: it gives me mercurial 18:46:20 <Rubidium> which user runs the builds on Windows? 18:46:27 <TrueBrain> openttd 18:46:27 *** z-MaTRiX [~matrix@index.linuxsecured.net] has joined #openttd 18:46:34 <z-MaTRiX> reloaded 18:46:35 <TrueBrain> otherwise a lot didn't work :) 18:47:36 <Yexo> michi_cc: go ahead and commit that 18:49:58 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: linux still fails ... but this time it seems it is missing a -lz in the Makefile? 18:50:12 <Rubidium> it doesn't need zlib 18:50:17 <TrueBrain> libpng does 18:50:38 <Rubidium> then libpng's libpng-config has to give the -lz 18:51:28 <TrueBrain> makes you wonder, doesn't it? :D 18:52:06 <Rubidium> if I haven't made a typo the hg problem should be solved 18:52:10 <TrueBrain> as it doesn't ... :) 18:52:22 *** hanf [~Klaus@host-89-240-251-195.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 18:52:29 <Rubidium> hmm, building it statically? 18:52:34 <TrueBrain> on my local machine, libpng-config --ldflags shows no -lz 18:52:35 <TrueBrain> but it does work 18:52:40 <TrueBrain> so why doesn't it work on th CF .. hmm .. 18:53:16 <Rubidium> might be that I slightly messed with the libpng and friends on the CF's generic jail 18:53:22 <Terkhen> see you tomorrow 18:53:23 <Rubidium> by removing the .so version 18:53:36 <Rubidium> to force statically linking 18:53:37 <TrueBrain> why would you do that? 18:53:39 <TrueBrain> bye Terkhen :) 18:53:43 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: lolz :D 18:53:53 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: that is one way of doing that :P 18:54:22 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: would it be an issue if I reinstall them? 18:54:25 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: yes, statically linking some stuff is not trivial (or I haven't found the right way to do it) 18:54:30 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 18:54:31 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 18:54:35 <TrueBrain> static is a bitch, yup 18:54:58 <Rubidium> but libpng is a bitch to not do statically as there are currently 1.2, 1.4 and 1.5 in the wild 18:55:06 <TrueBrain> yup 18:55:06 <Rubidium> all with different ABIs 18:55:22 <Rubidium> so the easiest would be to modify libpng-config to just return -lz as well ;) 18:55:29 <Alberth> evenink 18:55:53 <LordAro> evening 18:56:00 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I agree 18:56:08 <LordAro> i'd say something, but i have to go now :L 18:56:39 <Alberth> is it me? :) 18:57:11 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: no target: bundles_xz 18:57:13 <TrueBrain> :D 18:57:28 * Rubidium has "fun" with iexplore 18:57:30 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: hg issue solved; remaining issue is missing boosts/bimap.hpp 18:57:40 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: which bundles do you want for this? 18:57:44 <LordAro> Alberth: no, windoze time limits :( 18:57:57 <Rubidium> use the search bar thingy to search, it immediately comes up with it having blocked "www.bing.com" for security reasons 18:58:28 <LordAro> although, i did rescue my usb stick :) 18:58:45 <Alberth> good, and you made a backup too now? :) 18:58:49 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I made it bundle_gzip 18:58:59 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: perfect ;) 18:59:07 <LordAro> Alberth: well, i had a backup anyway, but was a bit old 18:59:21 <Alberth> :) 18:59:27 <LordAro> i will make sure i have a master on a proper hard drive from now on, however :) 18:59:33 <LordAro> got to run... 18:59:42 *** LordAro [56951cd4@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 19:01:24 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: in ~23 minutes (Windows progress bar time) it will have "installed" boost (I hope 19:01:34 <TrueBrain> and you are killing I/O access :P 19:02:11 <TrueBrain> (to the Windows VM, it is contained :P) 19:02:21 <TrueBrain> and of course the nightly started up .... 19:02:23 <Rubidium> bah... 19:02:33 <Rubidium> never close the explorer window that had the .zip opened 19:02:43 <Rubidium> ... while it's copying files from it 19:03:11 <Rubidium> stupid file manager 19:04:28 <TrueBrain> it is Windows after all ;) 19:04:37 <TrueBrain> well, Java is not much better, Bamboo refuses to pick up the phone .... 19:04:41 <TrueBrain> gimme a webpage ffs :P 19:04:51 <Rubidium> yeah :( 19:06:36 <TrueBrain> I have no clue why Java applications always have to be this bad 19:06:45 <TrueBrain> and why it still is the "industry standard" 19:09:46 <TrueBrain> well, after a while it concluded on its own that it was taking too long to process a job 19:09:53 <TrueBrain> not that it did anything against it, but it concluded :P 19:11:01 <TrueBrain> one of the minor issues with Bamboo ... don't do anything when an expensive (read: nightly) job launches :D 19:11:11 <Alberth> :) 19:15:08 * Zuu wonders which Bamboo TrueBrain is thinking about. From the context it doesn't look like the Wacom Bamboo. 19:15:47 <TrueBrain> you might be right there, yes 19:16:05 <Zuu> "might" - sounds fuzzy 19:16:08 <TrueBrain> :D 19:16:14 <TrueBrain> http://farm.openttd.org/ <- Bamboo 19:16:16 <TrueBrain> it mgiht not load atm :D 19:19:02 <Zuu> Indeed it loads slow if at all. 19:19:13 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-178-004-178-007.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:19:33 <TrueBrain> there is a somewhat I/O shortage by the looks of the server stats :D 19:19:39 <TrueBrain> in general, it is serving everything very very slow :P 19:19:43 <TrueBrain> I blame Rubidium, but I am not sure :D 19:20:19 <TrueBrain> since 10 minutes we are doing 1/5th of the normal bandwidth throughput :p That can not be accidental :D 19:20:49 <Rubidium> oh, I'm already done with boost 19:20:59 <Rubidium> well, or boost extracting was already done 19:21:02 <TrueBrain> then I wonder what is starving the system :) 19:24:06 <TrueBrain> well, I still tihnk it was boost, as everything is back to normal now (excluding Bamboo :P) 19:37:49 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:39:13 <z-MaTRiX> hii 19:41:09 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: Windows also can't find libz :D 19:41:15 <TrueBrain> can you add -lz to libpng-config there? 19:41:30 <TrueBrain> (for --ldflags of course) 19:42:01 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-86-29-57-43.glfd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:42:03 *** plugwash [~plugwash@cpc7-stkp7-2-0-cust208.10-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:42:23 <plugwash> is there any documentation of how the content download system works? 19:42:55 <frosch123> what kind of documentation? 19:43:00 <TrueBrain> http://wiki.openttd.org/Bananas 19:43:00 <andythenorth> there's code 19:43:09 <TrueBrain> http://wiki.openttd.org/Online_content 19:43:51 <TrueBrain> http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/browser/trunk/src/network/network_content.cpp 19:44:00 <TrueBrain> what other URLs can I think of full of random documentation related to the subject ... 19:44:17 <TrueBrain> http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/browser/trunk/src/network/core/tcp_content.h 19:44:19 <TrueBrain> found another one :D 19:44:41 <plugwash> I was wondering how it actually worked, whether it was possible to point it at a private server, whether there were any safegaurds against attackers in the network and so on 19:44:46 <TrueBrain> http://bananas.openttd.org/en/manager/tos/ (does that fall under documentation?) 19:45:17 <TrueBrain> plugwash: that is more than one question :) 19:45:33 <TrueBrain> how it actually work .. open any of the above URLs (still highly depends on what part you want to know about ...) 19:45:46 <TrueBrain> private server: in theory, with a custom compiled library (or if you change your hosts file :P) 19:46:06 <TrueBrain> safeguards against attackers ... what is an attacker going to attack? Sending you a random file you didn't ask for? 19:46:23 <TrueBrain> attackers "in the network" .. what is an attacker "in the network"? 19:46:49 <TrueBrain> s/compiled library/compiled binary/ 19:47:16 <plugwash> "what is an attacker "in the network"?" one placed so they can intercept the connection and replace what the server sends with what they want to send 19:47:28 <plugwash> that is someone with the power to act as a MITM 19:47:29 <TrueBrain> a Man in The Middle attack is that called 19:47:36 <Rubidium> it's not worth the effort to run your own private server. If you do so, then you need to distribute binaries and you could as well just distributed the binaries 19:47:49 * andythenorth remembers something 19:47:53 <TrueBrain> and a MITM is always possible, for anything .. 19:48:05 <TrueBrain> that is why you should run an AV, and trust your ISP :D 19:48:19 <plugwash> TrueBrain, yes but you can limit what they can do 19:48:25 <TrueBrain> they can send you random files 19:48:27 <TrueBrain> I mean ... 19:48:30 <TrueBrain> yippie? 19:48:31 <TrueBrain> lol 19:48:52 <TrueBrain> doesn't sound really useful :D 19:49:14 <TrueBrain> the content service does exactly that: send you files when you request them 19:49:31 <TrueBrain> so the possibilities for any attacker are rather limited to ... sending you a garbage file you didnt ask for? 19:49:38 <andythenorth> MITM is defensible against, but never preventable 19:49:56 <andythenorth> network equivalent of brain-in-a-vat problem in philosophy 19:49:59 <andythenorth> or evil-demon 19:50:04 <andythenorth> or changing-measuring-rods 19:50:11 <plugwash> sending you a different file from the one you asked for 19:50:28 <TrueBrain> either it is a valid grf file (or any other type), or it is not :) 19:50:38 <TrueBrain> about identical as you uploading a file to BaNaNaS 19:50:48 <TrueBrain> or sending you a link of a file to download :) 19:51:12 <Alberth> plugwash: given that many newgrfs hardly state what they do exactly, you have no way to verify anyway :) 19:51:16 <andythenorth> for anyone who wanted to do serious mal, it would be relatively trivial to crack bananas, and upload evil binaries, then find a way to cause you to execute them 19:51:23 <andythenorth> although... 19:51:29 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: 'evil binaries'? 19:51:34 <TrueBrain> what would they do? Make all sprites black? :P 19:51:41 <TrueBrain> any harm they can do is limited to OpenTTD itself 19:51:41 <andythenorth> binaries that do evil things 19:51:57 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: not if you can persuade the user to execute them from their file system :P 19:52:01 <andythenorth> like any other file 19:52:08 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: stupidity cannot be avoided :) 19:52:11 <Alberth> TB: make users waste hours behind the computer playing a game? :) 19:52:15 <TrueBrain> and does not require cracking/hacking ;) 19:52:24 * andythenorth considers some newgrfs malware anyway 19:52:29 <andythenorth> they infringe good taste 19:52:36 <TrueBrain> any newgrf malware that would be possible, you can distribute anyway :) 19:52:39 <plugwash> TrueBrain, depends, what is the chance of their being exploitable bugs in the GRF parser/interpreter 19:52:42 <TrueBrain> people blindly download them anyway ;) 19:52:47 <plugwash> true 19:53:05 <TrueBrain> I tihnk if you have a MITM, OpenTTD contentservice is the least of your worries :) 19:53:13 <TrueBrain> I am pretty sure they rather steal your banking details 19:53:20 * andythenorth has done a tram, and would like applause 19:53:23 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: could you try grfcodec building again? 19:53:25 <TrueBrain> then try to exploit some random game not even 1% of the population plays :P 19:53:29 <Yexo> plugwash: there might be, but quite a few have been fixed in the last versions of openttd 19:53:52 <TrueBrain> plugwash: so to answer your question: no, there are no (explicit) safeguards against MITM, as it is not a valid concern 19:53:55 <Yexo> and the only correct way to prevetn that is fixing the grf code in openttd, not by preventing a MITM 19:54:05 <Yexo> since anyone can upload any grf to bananas, so you don't need a MITM attack for that 19:54:25 <TrueBrain> it is like protecting your door with heavy bolds, while having no walls :P 19:54:29 <Rubidium> what's the point in preventing a MITM attack when someone can just upload a compromising file to bananas? 19:54:40 <TrueBrain> I am very happy we all said the same thing 4 times now :P 19:54:42 <TrueBrain> lolz 19:54:49 * andythenorth is MITM 19:55:31 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: fun fact, make bundle_zip rebuilds the .exe files ... 19:55:44 *** andythenorth is now known as MITM 19:55:55 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: all bundles do, for some (stupid?) reason 19:56:04 <TrueBrain> worth looking into? 19:56:08 <Rubidium> nope 19:56:13 <MITM> oh noes 19:56:20 <MITM> someone has been stealing my nick 19:56:34 *** MITM is now known as andythenorth 19:56:37 <Rubidium> it's forced specifically by the makefile for some reason I don't fancy figuring out 19:56:38 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: r838 compiled and available on master 19:56:39 <TrueBrain> please veirfy :) 19:56:59 <TrueBrain> also distributed over mirrors now 19:57:06 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i wanted to mention to rather use CB15 for capacity instead of CB36 19:57:16 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: now you tell me :P 19:57:20 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that ships around the whole mail/goods mess 19:57:26 <TrueBrain> plugwash: why do you have this worry? 19:57:31 <andythenorth> I rather hoped that would be the case 19:57:39 <__ln__> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15543209 19:57:44 <andythenorth> I looked at cb15 on Sunday, there's some reason I didn't implement it 19:57:57 <andythenorth> __ln__: I saw that earlier, pretty awesome 19:58:01 <andythenorth> the game should feature it :) 19:58:30 <plugwash> It actually started with me musing about the possibility of running private content download servers 19:58:33 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: which reason is that? 19:58:45 <plugwash> and that got me musing about how the system worked more generally 19:58:51 <TrueBrain> plugwash: what would be the benefit of using your own content server? 19:59:16 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: it seems to be okay at first sight 19:59:18 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: CB36 is practiaclly useless with "first refittable" setting 19:59:33 <Eddi|zuHause> i still think the game should actually fix that 19:59:48 <Yexo> Persistent storage accessed by GRFID. Size: 00 - FF (16) for each GRFID <- so how big is it? 256 or 16? 19:59:48 <Alberth> plugwash: just drop all stuff in a directory where openttd can find it, and you don't need a private server 19:59:51 <Eddi|zuHause> an the specs should be clarified 20:00:02 <TrueBrain> plugwash: the whole idea of the content service is to globalize the distribution of grfs (among others), as the old way (manually downloading one by one) was annoying and not reaching a full audiance. So one can wonder why that use would be to start aprivate one? (seriously wondering why you would want it btw :)) 20:00:02 <plugwash> Avoiding cluttering up the content download system with GRFs that are not intended for general use but that you do want to distribute to multiple clients 20:00:05 <frosch123> Yexo: 16 20:00:09 <frosch123> 00 to 0F 20:00:15 <Yexo> ok 20:00:18 <TrueBrain> plugwash: isn't copy/paste easier? 20:00:52 <TrueBrain> but so yeah ... download the source, change the location it uses to find the content server, launch your own (all in the subversion), and profit :D 20:00:52 <Rubidium> plugwash: you are aware that a custom content server requires custom binaries to contact that server? 20:01:11 * andythenorth -> newgrf spec 20:01:43 <plugwash> so the code for the content server is in the openttd svn tree? 20:01:51 <Eddi|zuHause> i looked at the relevant code once 20:01:59 <TrueBrain> all our code is released under GPL and can be found in the SVN 20:01:59 <Eddi|zuHause> but i got scared and threw it in a corner 20:02:00 <TrueBrain> even our website 20:02:16 <TrueBrain> we hold no secret :D 20:02:42 <Eddi|zuHause> except the database password :p 20:02:55 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: lolz :D 20:03:07 <TrueBrain> and user passwords :P 20:03:13 <TrueBrain> and developers emails 20:03:16 <frosch123> plugwash: you can actually specify version ottd version numbers when uploading stuff to bananas 20:03:16 <TrueBrain> and and and :p 20:03:19 <TrueBrain> okay, we have secrets! :P 20:03:22 <Eddi|zuHause> and user credit card information :) 20:03:37 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: tss, you cannot proof that :P 20:03:40 <frosch123> that way you can hide the download for basically all versions, and the stuff will only be available when joining a gamer that uses them 20:03:47 <frosch123> (at least i believe so) 20:04:06 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe i should post on /b/ :) 20:04:09 <TrueBrain> frosch123: hackish, but would work :p Just he is not allowed to upload any grf that he is not the author of :D 20:04:31 <frosch123> TrueBrain: coop is doing that a lot afaik 20:04:37 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: GRFCodec:Testing is running too. Every commit it will compile. Make sure to click 'Watch' if you want to get an email :) 20:05:05 <TrueBrain> frosch123: if they do, they get spank ;) They should never upload any grf of which they cannot give out the rights to distribute :) 20:05:24 <frosch123> i mean the "upload stuff and set version to basically none" 20:05:48 <TrueBrain> frosch123: like I said, hackish, but would work :) 20:05:58 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-31-22.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 20:06:01 <frosch123> e.g. those dummy-grfs which do nothing but say "you need grf pack 7.1" or so 20:06:03 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I will make you the Release target when you want to release. I don't want to test it and overwrite the current release :P 20:07:25 <frosch123> btw. did we forgot some paragraph in the tos, which says something like "this is our server, we may reject distributing whatever we like" ? 20:08:07 <frosch123> maybe bananas becomes a public place :p 20:08:18 <TrueBrain> frosch123: why would we want to reject a file for distribution? 20:08:36 <TrueBrain> anyway, nothing in the ToS says we have to do anything. It is all about the uploading granting (!) us rights 20:08:43 <TrueBrain> nowhere says we will use the rights :) 20:08:45 <TrueBrain> we just have them :P 20:09:57 <Yexo> because without any rules about that we practically have to host almost everything legal 20:10:48 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-86-29-57-43.glfd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:11:33 <TrueBrain> you mean if someone uploads, say, a legal mp3? 20:11:43 <Yexo> of course not 20:11:53 <TrueBrain> then I don't understand what you said, sorry :) 20:11:55 <Yexo> but if someone uploads a very silly grf you can't simply remove it 20:12:03 <TrueBrain> we can; why can't we? 20:12:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: if you go that way, who decides the limits what can be "censored" and what not? 20:12:44 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: the problem with cb15 is that I will have to maintain a list of every cargo where the unit isn't 1t or similar 20:12:52 <Yexo> http://blog.iusmentis.com/2009/09/16/mag-een-site-mij-zomaar-verbannen/ 20:12:55 <andythenorth> every cargo, past, present or future 20:12:55 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: we do :D 20:13:00 <Yexo> sorry for all non-dutch speaking persons in here 20:13:06 *** KritiK [~Maxim@89-178-237-214.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 20:13:18 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes. 20:13:21 <andythenorth> cb15 uses capacity exactly as returned 20:13:39 <andythenorth> so 1 crate goods in that vehicle then weighs 1t 20:13:45 <andythenorth> instead of 0.5t 20:13:46 <andythenorth> etc 20:13:52 <andythenorth> it's insane 20:14:01 <andythenorth> the current solution is clearly much more sane 20:14:21 <andythenorth> which is to double all capacities on the assumption that (a) mail will be in the game (b) it will be first refittable cargo 20:14:33 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: then set mail directly 20:14:44 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: or better: check for presence of mail 20:14:48 <andythenorth> ah ha 20:14:55 <andythenorth> I already set mail 20:14:58 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: do you prefer the 30t down-feather hopper? 20:15:00 <andythenorth> so (b) is lies :) 20:15:13 <TrueBrain> Yexo / frosch123 : so if you really worried we 'give the idea we distribute every file' (which I understand is what Yexo wants to point out with the URL :P), add a point: 7. OpenTTD team holds the rights to not distribute a file, or something :P 20:15:27 <andythenorth> cargo refitting is an unspeakable nest of madness 20:15:29 <Rubidium> Yexo: isn't that more about banning people and removing all their content than removing content from some server? 20:15:31 <andythenorth> so let us not speak of it 20:15:36 <TrueBrain> then you only have to go through the trouble of making everyone sign the new ToS :P 20:15:40 <TrueBrain> ugh, no, lets not change the ToS :P 20:15:48 <frosch123> TrueBrain: plus "without stating any reasons" 20:16:00 <TrueBrain> frosch123: we would never do that, so I am not worried about that tbh :) 20:16:11 <TrueBrain> we never delete anything without having a clear reason 20:16:13 <Yexo> TrueBrain: I'm not worried at all 20:16:21 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: just a matter of compression :p 20:16:23 <frosch123> well, i think we can rely on default law for now :) 20:16:33 <TrueBrain> frosch123: which law? 20:16:42 <frosch123> like offensive content 20:16:43 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: 'Dynamo' ? Does that fit my easter egg naming rules? 20:16:56 <TrueBrain> Yexo: ah; you gave another fibe, sorry :D 20:16:58 <TrueBrain> vibe 20:17:00 <TrueBrain> lolz 20:17:02 <andythenorth> if it's a football team for Dresden or Schalke, it fits :P 20:17:15 <Yexo> Rubidium: "Hoofdregel is dat een site-eigenaar zelf mag bepalen wat hij doet met zijn site (of blog of forum of wat dan ook). Maar als je bepaalde verwachtingen wekt bij bezoekers, dan kun je daaraan gehouden worden." <- I think that is more general than only about bans 20:17:18 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it's Dresden's football team 20:17:24 <andythenorth> ok 20:17:31 <andythenorth> I'll change it now 20:17:47 <TrueBrain> Yexo: but I do see your point there 20:17:57 <TrueBrain> although I wonder if that is Dutch law, or EU law speaking :D 20:18:11 <Yexo> at least Dutch, possible also EU 20:18:40 <TrueBrain> I know Dutch law protects you against fraud in this way 20:18:52 <TrueBrain> really neat btw, but okay :) 20:19:16 <Yexo> reading back I see my first lines about it were giving the wrong signal :p 20:19:21 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: feel free to suggest pantograph improvements, they bore me 20:19:23 <TrueBrain> :D 20:19:26 <Yexo> just thought it's interesting, I'm not worried about it at all 20:19:44 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: it's a separate layer in the psd source file 20:19:50 <TrueBrain> but yeah, reading back the ToS, it would have been good if we also said what they can expect from us :P 20:20:23 <TrueBrain> then agian, the only reason we have a ToS, is to avoid some .... people with argument against such distributed system :P 20:21:09 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it's a pantograph for a late 19th century tram, but not a modern one 20:21:41 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: anything else you want from the CF? 20:22:24 <frosch123> once we had catcodec, osie and strgen 20:22:27 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: a modern (from ca. 1990) pantograph would look like this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/Einholm-Stromabnehmer-Eisenbahnfotograph.jpg 20:22:35 <Yexo> TrueBrain: an easy way to compile dev repos? 20:22:35 <frosch123> oh, and pngcodec 20:22:49 <TrueBrain> Yexo: easy .. hmm ... we have to talk about that :D 20:22:50 <TrueBrain> hihihihi 20:23:11 <TrueBrain> you have to copy an existing project for it, and change the source. Not undoable, but more complex than I wanted :( 20:23:28 <TrueBrain> frosch123: let me know if any of them gets any commit, then I add them 20:24:00 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I don't want to overwrite the current files (as it would change the date, and possibly the binary), so when there is a new revision, I can add them 20:24:20 <TrueBrain> Yexo: but I can add any dev repos you like. Takes me 5 minutes or something 20:24:42 <Yexo> there is nothing now, just wanted to point it out while you're working on it 20:24:59 <TrueBrain> Yexo: yeah, and I prepared anything for it; just it is not a 1 click system I would have liked :( 20:25:05 <TrueBrain> anything = everything 20:25:08 <TrueBrain> nasty typo :P 20:30:46 <TrueBrain> but, I have to add, the Clone Existing Project of Bamboo is really nice; works really well and fast :) 20:33:21 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host48-239-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 20:34:05 <Wolf01> hello 20:36:40 *** heffer_ is now known as heffer 20:38:49 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-86-29-57-43.glfd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 20:39:02 <Eddi|zuHause> now... need to resolve conflicts... 20:39:38 <__ln__> you could start with syria 20:40:04 <MNIM> meh, greece needs it more. 20:40:10 <MNIM> a nuke would be a solution 20:40:40 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 20:40:48 <MNIM> maybe they won't try to blow up their own country like they usually do if you kill them all first 20:41:11 <V453000> :D 20:41:23 <V453000> maybe they should make a poll on blowing the country up 20:41:36 <MNIM> yes, they should. 20:41:45 <MNIM> seriously, wtf is up with greece? 20:41:55 <V453000> greeks. simple as that :D 20:42:01 <MNIM> it used to be an outstanding culture some 2000+ years ago. 20:42:07 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: the inventors of democracy want to play actual democracy? 20:42:52 <MNIM> Eddi|zuHause: usually a praise-worthy idea, but not for greeks. 20:43:00 <Eddi|zuHause> and the second most undemocratical institution in europe doesn't like it` 20:43:04 <Eddi|zuHause> ? 20:43:55 <MNIM> it's not the institution EU which hates it, it's everybody else who lives in europe who hates it, as everybody sees their own tax money being wasted. 20:44:11 <MNIM> at least, I do, and from what I hear around me, a lot of others do too. 20:44:31 <MNIM> usually giving the power to the people is a praise-worthy idea, but not for greeks. 20:45:05 <__ln__> they could rename themselves to Democratic Republic of Greece 20:46:56 <MNIM> pffft. 20:47:43 <Rubidium> a 100% democracy isn't going to work, just look at e.g. California 20:47:55 <MNIM> greece is the only country in 'europe' that has actually had civil war since the last world war, several coups d'etat 20:48:01 <Rubidium> vote for tax cuts, vote against tax increases 20:48:21 <Rubidium> vote for spending more for police/education, vote against spending less 20:49:09 <Eddi|zuHause> http://media.techeblog.com/images/the-firefox.jpg 20:49:13 <MNIM> a military regime, brutal suppression of uprising 20:49:19 <Rubidium> if it were left to the people they would pay no taxes, start retirement from their birth, ... 20:49:19 <Eddi|zuHause> (not related to any topic) 20:49:49 <__ln__> Rubidium: isn't that what they are quite much doing already in greece? 20:49:52 <MNIM> hmmmmh, about unrelated, not sure if want 20:49:59 <andythenorth> bye 20:50:00 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #openttd [] 20:50:03 <MNIM> __ln__: it is 20:50:15 <MNIM> that's why it's going to the sweet-fuck-all atm 20:51:11 <Eddi|zuHause> <MNIM> a military regime, brutal suppression of uprising <-- if you discount, like... whole of eastern europe, spain, ... 20:53:13 <MNIM> uhh yes, spain and portugal, true. 20:53:20 <Eddi|zuHause> <Rubidium> vote for spending more for police/education, vote against spending less <-- that's the problem of allowing to vote for each budget entry separately 20:53:23 <MNIM> forgot those. ^.^; 20:53:50 <MNIM> either way, I still motion that greece is not really a european state 20:54:09 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: and the problem with not doing it means getting basically only things done that nobody likes 20:54:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: if they would have votes on: "increase police funding by x%, increase income tax by y%" 20:54:25 <MNIM> even if only for the fact that word 'europe', of greek origin, means 'land of the sundown' 20:54:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: as an un-splittable unit 20:54:58 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: just look at the bills in the American congress 20:55:17 <Rubidium> a healthcare bill that only makes it because it has tax cuts in it 20:55:33 <Rubidium> (instead of the possibly necessary tax increase) 20:55:39 <MNIM> let's leave americans out of this >.> 20:56:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: as if the tax cut/tax increase thing would work better in, like, germany :p 20:56:06 <Rubidium> why? A lot of our trouble are caused by them 20:56:40 <MNIM> they're possibly even worse than greece, the only way that nation still can pay it's army is because people keep trusting the dollar. 20:56:42 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: in Germany you don't have to opposing blocks of "far left" and "far right" 20:57:15 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: only because we have a reason to suppress our "far fight" block :) 20:58:10 <Rubidium> even then, for many of the sane laws to pass you can find a majority in parlement 20:58:18 <__ln__> will "we" have euro as the currency one year from now? 20:58:20 <MNIM> mostly caused by a country's collective shame about a past which most current residents have never been a part off :P 20:58:25 <Rubidium> instead of always having to win votes with the "extreme" opposite 20:59:08 <MNIM> __ln__: judging by how we're taking care of said euro, Im not sure there's an euro to have as currency next year 20:59:14 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: if by "we" you mean the "core states" with "solid finance", then germany, netherlands and finland will still have the euro by next year :) 20:59:17 <V453000> [21:59] <+Stablean> <insulfrog> it's a pity you can't use the mouse to pop the strey bubbles from the bubble generator :) <--- :D 20:59:40 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 20:59:40 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: yes, that "we" 21:00:07 <MNIM> eddi: not exactly, as we keep trying to fill that bottomless pit down south with our own money 21:00:19 <MNIM> which means that in the end, our wallets will be empty too. 21:00:42 <MNIM> isn't that kindoff odd? 21:01:18 <__ln__> i read an article that by 2018 europe will be in war. 21:01:41 <MNIM> economically stable and safe countries making debts because we're trying to help a country that doesn't even want said help> 21:01:42 <MNIM> ? 21:01:46 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: afghanistan doesn't count? :) 21:02:06 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: no, i mean european countries against each other (or greece) 21:02:09 <MNIM> Afghanistan hardly counts. numbers involved on our side is minimal. 21:02:51 <Rubidium> MNIM: it's "our" own fault for being pussies 21:03:42 <Rubidium> we accepted those countries that didn't meet the requirements for joining in the first place 21:03:51 <MNIM> I didn't. 21:04:15 <Rubidium> you did by proxy 21:04:25 <MNIM> greece has been in the EU far longer than Ive had the right to vote! 21:04:39 <Rubidium> well, then your parents 21:05:00 <MNIM> in fact, greece has been in the EU longer than I have lived, :P 21:05:32 <MNIM> I doubt that, too, considering other country's membership in the EU has never been up for referendum. 21:05:36 <Rubidium> then you may not vote yet 21:05:46 <Rubidium> (and you're at most 12) 21:05:48 <MNIM> which it should have been, IMSHO 21:05:59 <MNIM> Greece joined in 1981 21:06:00 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: it's not about EU membership, but Euro membership 21:06:06 *** blotek [~blotek@acra206.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:06:07 <MNIM> Im born in 1991 :P 21:06:14 <MNIM> ohh. 21:06:26 <MNIM> neither were we asked to vote for that. 21:06:48 *** blotek [~blotek@acra206.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 21:06:49 <Yexo> MNIM: but your government voted about it, and you voted for your government 21:06:55 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: that is one of the real problems, the "democracy deficite" of the EU 21:07:33 <__ln__> one nice way to avoid giving money to greece is to be a country that doesn't use the euro. (e.g. sweden, UK) 21:07:34 <MNIM> I know, I agree with you on that 21:08:04 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: afaik the UK did help out greece already 21:08:10 <MNIM> yeap 21:08:22 <MNIM> I was agreeing with eddi, In case that wasn't clear 21:09:22 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: you focus too much on what you, as a tax payer, "pay" to greece, but governments have whole other objectives. 21:09:46 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: e.g. one of the primary effects of the greece problem is a drop of the euro towards the dollar 21:10:03 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: which greatly helps export-oriented economies like germany 21:10:09 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: I don't think that is their biggest concern 21:10:20 <Rubidium> their biggest concern is bank domino d-day 21:10:48 <Eddi|zuHause> that may be the second goal. helping out their own banks 21:11:12 <MNIM> Im not concerned about paying tax, Im concerned that said tax is money is just thrown onto a big pile, after which a greek anarchist shouts "Eleftheria i Thanatos!" and lights the whole pile on fire 21:11:19 <MNIM> EG, total waste 21:11:23 <Rubidium> if Greece defaults, then all banks having Greek debt will loose that money. That will make their balance too low and they are essentially bankrupt 21:11:45 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: none of the money you "pay" effectively goes to any greek person 21:11:58 <MNIM> you know what I mean. 21:12:00 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: it all flows directly back into the banking system 21:12:14 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: and maybe some rich greek people who know how to navigate the system 21:12:41 <__ln__> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2054913/Europe-war-2018-As-Angela-Merkel-says-euro-meltdown-spark-battle.html 21:12:50 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: and that's the point where it's perfectly legit for the greek people to say "the only way to win this game is to not play at all" 21:13:10 <MNIM> what I mean, anyway, is that the issue greece is costing /a lot/ of money, and said money does nothing to fix the problem. 21:13:21 <Rubidium> another quite noticable thing is insurances banks have taken against not being paid back. With the current system of voluntary dropping half of the debt, those insurance companies don't have to pay. If Greece just goes bankrupt they have to pay, and in effect those insurance companies go bankrupt (which incidentally are banks as well) 21:13:32 <Rubidium> a nice example of this is Lehman Brothers 21:14:09 <Eddi|zuHause> this is the point where you better not have more than 10.000⬠at the bank :) 21:14:37 <MNIM> ...sadly, I'm in trouble, in that case 21:14:43 <Eddi|zuHause> a nice inflation would be useful now 21:15:28 <Rubidium> all in all, it all went sour a long long time ago when the current monetary/banking systems were invented 21:15:39 <MNIM> __ln__: while that's indeed, a historian's mind running wild, a nato/un peacekeeping force for greece like SFOR in the balkan would not be unthinkable. 21:15:45 <Rubidium> the bubble will eventually burst and all we're doing now is postpone it 21:15:55 <MNIM> Rubidium: my thinking 21:16:16 <MNIM> and to postpone it we put even more money at risk 21:16:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: we are postponing it, because nobody has a clue how to start over with a better system 21:17:16 <Rubidium> MNIM: if the monetary systems collapses money has no value, so your debt doesn't either 21:17:26 <Rubidium> after all, it isn't backed by anything solid anymore 21:18:38 <MNIM> that's the issue 21:18:42 <MNIM> I have no debts 21:18:57 <Eddi|zuHause> now's the best time to do so :) 21:19:08 <MNIM> I have ~8000E standing there 21:19:26 <Eddi|zuHause> build a house, buy a farm, start a _productive_ company 21:19:38 <Rubidium> MNIM: actually, you do.... 21:19:48 <Eddi|zuHause> (i.e. nothing "we provide <internet-buzzword>") 21:19:56 <Rubidium> "Federal Reserve Notes are legal tender, with the words "this note is legal tender for all debts, public and private" printed on each note" (Federal Reserve Note = US Dollar, but the Euro works the same) 21:20:14 <MNIM> productive companies need more than 8000e to start, and I can't exactly lend anything right now 21:20:20 <Rubidium> so you "own" ~8000E of someone elses debt 21:20:54 <MNIM> true. so that means that I will own 8000e of /nothing/ if it all goes to hell 21:21:06 <__ln__> investing 8000⬠in the stock market after the upcoming collapse could prove profitable. 21:21:17 <Rubidium> yup 21:21:21 <__ln__> if there's still stock market left. 21:21:47 <MNIM> not to mention that 8000e might only get you a loaf of bread by then 21:26:19 *** blotek [~blotek@acra206.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:30:11 <MNIM> the article is interesting, with just a couple of issues: france isn't exactly clean on economy either, and I doubt they'd go as far as even invading a country while they will barely be able to hold their own together. 21:30:26 <MNIM> belgian civil war, however, doesn't sound so unlikely. 21:33:04 <MNIM> which could prove quite beneficial to the netherlands, as antwerp can wave goodbye to being the prime western euro harbour 21:33:29 <MNIM> which in turn will boost rotterdam, 21:34:08 <MNIM> and as it'll all go to hell just a stone's throw south, dutch politicians suddenly all would agree on something 21:37:18 <Eddi|zuHause> "and I doubt they'd go as far as even invading a country while they will barely be able to hold their own together." <-- throughout history, that's exactly the main reason to go to war. to distract from interior problems 21:37:44 <MNIM> hmmmh, true. 21:38:03 <MNIM> let's put it this way: reasonably, with what we can see now, they cannot 21:38:34 <__ln__> a war in modern-day europe would be interesting. 21:38:56 <MNIM> of course, for you it'll happen way down south and east :P 21:39:16 <MNIM> while I myself would be able to hear the guns in the south 21:39:25 <Eddi|zuHause> switzerland just recently rejected a ban on scatter-bombs, on the grounds that they need them to "defend themselves" 21:39:57 <MNIM> moot argument, of course, since there are better ways, but they are right 21:40:39 <MNIM> switzerland will be okay if the euro blows, but since they have no allies, they only have themselves 21:40:39 *** blotek [~blotek@acra206.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 21:41:08 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: switzerland is one of the main loosers in the whole euro crisis 21:41:21 <frosch123> hmm, i guess libia is no longer interested in invading switzerland 21:41:29 <frosch123> lybia? 21:41:36 <Eddi|zuHause> libya 21:41:37 <MNIM> right now, they are, due to the economical crisis 21:41:47 <MNIM> because europe is a major trading parter 21:42:14 <MNIM> but you can bet your ass that switzerland will have it a lot better than the eu when the exrements hit the fan 21:42:21 <__ln__> libyans are embracing democracy now! (did anyone seriously believe that in any point?) 21:42:25 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: what i said before of germany benefiting from a weak euro, switzerland has the exact opposite 21:42:47 <Eddi|zuHause> switzerland needs a strong euro to stay competetive 21:43:42 <MNIM> true. but what I mean, if we look a couple of years further, when the whole former euro zone is toting their guns and eying their neighbours, switzerland will be relatively high, dry and safe 21:44:27 *** blotek_ [~blotek@acra206.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 21:44:46 <MNIM> switzerland has ridden out two world wars already, literally in the eye in the storm as it's surrounded by combatants 21:44:56 <MNIM> they'll ride out the third too. 21:44:56 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: and a major migration target 21:45:12 <MNIM> correct. but not a major military target. 21:45:43 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: with the anti-immigrants ruling there, that'll be a major strain on interior politics 21:46:13 <MNIM> not more so a strain than in previous wars. 21:46:19 <Eddi|zuHause> some people already call the SVP the "swiss nazi party" 21:46:39 <MNIM> the netherlands have seen this too, in the first world war (tried the same in WW2, didn't go as well that time, lol) 21:47:47 <MNIM> with the guns audible as far as goeree, belgians flooded the border and were put in refugee camps 21:49:09 <MNIM> with soldiers stationed under every suitable roof and belgian refugees in camps, there was quite a strain on the souther regions 21:49:24 *** blotek_ [~blotek@acra206.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:50:47 <MNIM> especially limburg would have not been a good place at that time, as it's wedge in right between belgium and germany. 21:51:01 <MNIM> *wedged 21:51:12 *** blotek [~blotek@acra206.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:53:32 <MNIM> so it's not unreasonable to compare that to switzerland in such a case. 21:54:43 <MNIM> switzerland has however the advantage of a tactically perfect terrain which is easy to defend against any invading force north, west or south, and it's way less populated. 21:54:53 <Starhero> I am confused 21:55:19 <Starhero> I got ottdau...so i could easily try cargodist and yacd 21:55:32 *** valhalla1w [~valhallas@vpn91.ext.espci.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:55:38 <Starhero> I see hardly and differances in features of the game..besides those patches... 21:55:52 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: same can be said about afghanistan 21:56:03 <Starhero> meaning the stable...and this branch that was used for cargodist seem no differnt 21:56:07 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: yet in the past few decades, multiple people tried 21:56:07 <planetmaker> Starhero: there isn't 21:56:24 <Starhero> So there isn;t much changes? 21:56:26 <MNIM> eddi: and failed, and still fail 21:56:35 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: leaving it the least developed region outside africa 21:56:43 <planetmaker> as said before: check the changelog you were linked to before 21:56:53 <MNIM> true, but it wasn't very developed to begin with. 21:57:20 <planetmaker> it's the same game and there's only 3 months worth of development between them and current trunk or stable. At most 21:58:08 <Starhero> Hmm so i might be A-okay on playing this verson with minimum ...frustrations with changes.. 21:58:14 <Starhero> I did check out the last nightly 21:58:31 <Starhero> I see that somethings changed with the vehicle list..but that is about it that i care about. 21:58:45 <Starhero> I think something with slopes and roads also 21:58:58 <MNIM> switzerland, having advanced technology, plus a coherent goverment, plus the advantage of a culture of fortifications and a tactical warfare doctrine based on their geography. 21:59:21 <MNIM> afghanistan hasn't had those advantages in the past hundred years. 21:59:26 <planetmaker> you might care about a handful of NewGRFs working in trunk but not in trunk 3 months ago 21:59:39 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@ip-86-49-59-25.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:59:41 <planetmaker> or you might not care ;-) 22:00:05 <Starhero> This has been said before I am dam sure...but cargodist type patches should be optimized and merged. This really needs to be in the game..it gives a purpose to us millionares *large glossy eyes of inspiration* 22:00:44 <MNIM> merging two types of cargodist? 22:00:52 <MNIM> that's an insane task, at best 22:01:21 <MNIM> that's like trying to merge mac osx and ubuntu 22:01:30 <Yexo> Starhero: last I heard was that nobody had ideas for the optimization 22:01:30 <MNIM> forgive me the crude simile 22:01:31 <planetmaker> Starhero: please come forward with suggestions on how to optimize one or both of the patches 22:01:44 <planetmaker> s/suggestions/patches/ 22:02:23 <planetmaker> yes, that's why they currently are on hiatus 22:02:42 <Starhero> Ah 22:03:02 <Starhero> I have a friend that might beable to help ..but not me.. 22:03:42 <MNIM> I think the best idea here would be to just choose one above the other and get it into trunk. 22:04:01 <planetmaker> MNIM: and loose 50% performance? 22:04:27 <__ln__> *it's 'lose' with one o 22:04:35 <MNIM> yes, or try to merge them both into trunk, and risk them interfering with eachother and have even less left 22:05:14 <__ln__> people who have spelled 'looooose' with two tonight are, in alphabetical order: Eddi|zuHause, planetmaker, Rubidium 22:05:29 <MNIM> not to mention that merging might take much, much longer than simply taking a decision. 22:05:37 <__ln__> not that i'm paying any attention to it or anything 22:06:04 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: it's a stupid word anyway 22:06:13 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: agreed, it's english 22:06:26 <MNIM> afterwards you can compare 'em, see what the differences are, and from then on improve from that 50% you had 22:06:47 <MNIM> otherwise you'll be stuck with the 0% of having no cargodist at all forever 22:06:55 <MNIM> just my thinking here. 22:09:44 *** blotek_ [~blotek@acra206.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 22:09:49 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: that can only be said by someone who hasn't witnessed the old PBS 22:10:20 <MNIM> I haven't. true. Ive heard that it was quite horrible? 22:11:14 <MNIM> either way, is any of the cargodist patches functional? 22:11:21 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: that's why the errors shall not be repeated. that means, features of that scale must be polished before being commited 22:11:37 <MNIM> true, I can't protest on that. 22:11:48 <MNIM> but did you have two versions of pbs too? 22:12:01 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: for various interpretations of "functional" 22:12:45 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: how is having one or two versions of PBS relevant? 22:12:50 <MNIM> Ill interpret that as "it works, I suppose, but I wouldn't give it to a new player to play with", then 22:13:08 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: but between "have buggy PBS" and "have no PBS", the second was the path to be chosen 22:13:11 <MNIM> well, now you have two different patches for cargodist, right? 22:13:42 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: over the course of the past few years, we had like 6 different patches for cargo destinations 22:14:06 <MNIM> oh, so there's already been culled quite a bit 22:14:36 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: performance was usually one of the key problems 22:15:02 <MNIM> ahah 22:16:31 <MNIM> hmmhhhh 22:16:52 <MNIM> how does the process for including a patch into trunk go anyway? 22:17:32 <Yexo> you convince a dev to commit it 22:18:02 <Yexo> of course a lot depends on the size / impact of the patch 22:18:08 <Eddi|zuHause> 1) user writes patch, 2) dev reviews it and slaps it user in the face for not obeying code style, 3) repeat 22:18:14 <MNIM> lol 22:19:29 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: some things never change :D 22:19:40 <__ln__> 2.5) get kicked 22:19:55 <MNIM> so, basically it all depends on the willpower of the patcher to get it to trunk. 22:20:26 <Yexo> it depends on the willpower of said patcher to write a patch in the first place 22:20:59 <MNIM> well, true. but after that patch exists, take for an example, a lot of patch in the forum, a lot die 22:21:13 <Yexo> if the patch is an easy fix of easy feature that doesn't need discussion, the "convincing" part is almost nonexistent 22:21:37 <Yexo> a lot of the patches in the forum have never been updated to adhere to codestyle or have been discussed and rejected 22:21:47 <TrueBrain> most patches die because they do not obey coding style, and the patcher refuses to adjust 22:22:12 <TrueBrain> many people tend to forget it is not a democracy. Coding style is mandatory :) 22:22:47 <MNIM> well, this country is a democracy, but it still doesn't allow me to kill someone. still a democracy :P 22:22:49 <Starhero> ....I am gonna recreate ottd in C# and add multithread and cargo dist in the core...Yes...Yes this will work...*stares at IDE*....screw that....*clicks x* 22:23:20 <Starhero> C++ is what stops me from actually trying to change one thing in this game. 22:23:46 <Starhero> Sad cuz i use to rave about C++ and tell ppl to hate java... 22:23:53 <MNIM> take for an example, a patch for a treeline. Ive seen it in the forums, and Im going to disregard any discussion about it since I just want to give an example. :P 22:24:02 <Starhero> Now i use it's cusion. 22:24:17 <Starhero> treeline? 22:24:48 <Starhero> All I ask is tell me what you mean by that..I'll do the rest of the research..teh hell is a treeline.. 22:25:17 <MNIM> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=46786&start=0 22:25:34 <TrueBrain> MNIM: one way to bend what I meant to say, but you know what I mean :P 22:25:41 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host48-239-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 22:25:59 <MNIM> hypothetically, somebody builds a treeline patch, but doesn't do it properly so it'll never go to trunk. 22:26:43 <TrueBrain> MNIM: as what I meant of course is: even if 10000 people like a patch, if it doesn't obey coding style, it will not be committed :P 22:26:59 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: nobody expects the patch to be "proper" at once, but you have to work to improve it 22:27:03 <MNIM> yes, but will it never be recreated in proper code either? 22:27:16 <MNIM> eddi: hypothetically, original author refuses 22:27:19 <TrueBrain> MNIM: very much depends on the patch writer, and the availiablity of any developer :) 22:27:22 <Yexo> that depends on the patch author and the willingness of the devs 22:27:27 <Starhero> So...that means no ottd devs could ..ya kno...for the sake of the community...code stylize it? 22:27:40 <Yexo> course they could, but that takes time 22:27:49 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: if the author refuses, and nobody else picks it up, there's nothing we can do 22:27:51 <Yexo> time they could spend on anything else they like more 22:28:00 <MNIM> Starhero: you can't just take another's code and fix it, as that would be stealing 22:28:16 <Yexo> MNIM: in this case you could, since it's all gpl 22:28:20 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: In the end, there needs to be somebody who "just does it" 22:28:29 <MNIM> hmmmh, guess so. 22:28:32 <Starhero> well we live in the world of instant communications... 22:29:13 <TrueBrain> Starhero: if the original author is too lazy to code style it, why would a dev bother? 22:29:16 <Yexo> going back to your treeline example: I've seen the patch in the forums. I somewhat like the idea but I'v never really been sold on it's usefulness 22:29:19 <TrueBrain> he could do it too, for the sake of the community ;) 22:29:30 <Yexo> I haven't seen any pushes for it on irc, so I kindof forgot about it 22:29:38 * MNIM fixes that 22:29:45 <MNIM> Ill push for it :P 22:30:03 <MNIM> I kinda like having some tree-less spots 22:31:38 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: imho. tree growth needs some major restructuring 22:32:05 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: to prevent the entire map from being covered with trees so quickly 22:32:15 <MNIM> Ive seen a patch for that too 22:32:49 <Yexo> MNIM: beginning to see the problem? tree line height is mentioned and a major restructuring of tree growth comes up 22:32:54 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: there's a setting to prevent tree growth at all, but that has the extreme opposite effect of eventually having a map without trees 22:33:05 <MNIM> yexo: noticed 22:33:18 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: there must be a balance inbetween 22:33:19 <Yexo> just adding the tree line height without any thoughs about more restructuring of tree growth is a bad idea since it makes further development harder 22:33:27 <MNIM> eddi: I think I saw a setting which slowed it, could be sprinkles? 22:33:30 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: current tree growth patch misses a feedback link to reach this balance 22:33:36 <MNIM> Yexo: gotcha 22:33:36 <Yexo> so suddenly a seemingly simple patch becomes a lot of thinking about the direction is should go in 22:33:46 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: it's in trunk meanwhile 22:34:13 <MNIM> yeah, eddi, the growing fast is not the issue, I mean, it took a hundred years in my game to grow completely full 22:34:38 <MNIM> it needs to have a balance, however 22:34:45 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: now add in a daylength factor, and the same map is full in a few years 22:34:51 <MNIM> it needs something which 'kills' the trees 22:35:06 <Yexo> lumbermill in tropic 22:35:14 <MNIM> ah, trees are linked to clicks, not calender? 22:35:18 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1AE06.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:35:35 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: tree growth is done in the tile loop 22:35:54 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: usual daylength patches leave the tile loop untouched 22:36:03 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: but that's actually not the issue 22:36:20 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@89.246.172.11] has joined #openttd 22:36:54 <MNIM> what is, then? 22:37:37 <MNIM> eh, brb, need to perform daily 'cargodist' loop ;) 22:40:17 <TrueBrain> TMI? :P 22:43:02 *** hanf [~Klaus@host-89-240-251-195.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:43:11 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6CDEE.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:43:14 <planetmaker> trees just die also normally. 22:43:19 <planetmaker> just more trees grow than die 22:44:22 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: that's the problem, the number of trees that die is not scaling properly with the number of trees that exist 22:44:29 <MNIM> ah yes. 22:44:33 <MNIM> that doesn't help 22:44:44 <planetmaker> yes, I'm aware, Eddi|zuHause 22:45:08 <planetmaker> but even if that would be 1:1 tree growth would be unsatisfactorily: you'd end up with trees everywhere - just lower density 22:45:43 <MNIM> planetmaker: to counter that, tree death needs to be more likely near an open spot/recent tree death 22:46:10 <MNIM> that way you would eventually get patches of forest and open land, if balanced right 22:46:53 <planetmaker> which would mean to store lots of overhead info ;-) 22:46:56 <MNIM> at least, it does in nature 22:47:16 <planetmaker> or to introduce entities like "wood" (analoguous to town) 22:47:42 <MNIM> planetmaker: how does current tree growth happen? 22:47:55 <MNIM> tree seed more likely in neighbourhood of existing tree? 22:48:04 <planetmaker> yes 22:48:07 <MNIM> tree death would be just the opposite 22:48:11 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: there are two types of tree growth 22:48:21 <MNIM> tree death more likely in neighbourhood of empty tile 22:48:33 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: one is an existing tree spawning a "child" in a nearby tile 22:48:54 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: the second is a random tree getting spawned on a random tile 22:49:50 <MNIM> ahah 22:50:13 <MNIM> ahah, like that 22:50:15 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: the relevant parts of the code might be called "TileLoop_Tree" and "OnTick_Tree". respectively 22:52:11 <planetmaker> tree_cmd.cpp might be the file to look at 22:52:17 <planetmaker> or similar 22:52:58 <Eddi|zuHause> you may find the second is massively amplified in tropic climate 22:55:40 <MNIM> hmmmh, from what I gather from what you say, it sounds as if the 'tree death more likely near empty spot' should be put under tile-loop 22:56:23 <MNIM> where the case would be 'if empty tile, kill a nearby tree now and then' 22:57:13 <TrueBrain> more then than now :D 22:59:59 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: and if you familiarized yourself with the code, you may introduce a gradual tree line like "beyond height X, trees may not reach the largest growth step, beyond height Y only the smallest growth step, and beyond height Z no tree may be planted" 23:00:44 <MNIM> that's what I was thinking 23:01:09 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: then you've a problem with the arctic forests, which contradict the "natural" tree line concept by requiring to be above the snow line 23:01:28 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: and then you have a problem with any newgrf forest industries 23:01:46 <MNIM> hight x should be independent of snow line 23:01:52 <planetmaker> and mind the wood cutter in tropics 23:02:02 <planetmaker> it cuts trees. and requires them to produce wood 23:02:12 <MNIM> especially in the case of a seasonally changing snowline like in opengx+terrain 23:02:13 <planetmaker> you don't want to render that useless 23:02:37 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: but the tree line is inherently tied to the snow line 23:02:48 <MNIM> not in the patch that I saw? 23:03:03 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: no, but "realistically" 23:03:17 <MNIM> only loosely 23:03:25 <MNIM> depends on climate, really 23:04:04 <planetmaker> good night 23:04:32 <MNIM> snowline is more dependent on air density and density than temperature. 23:04:54 <MNIM> in general, as you go north, the snow line drops faster than the tree line. 23:05:11 <MNIM> wait, scratch that 23:05:23 <MNIM> the winter snow line drops faster than the tree line. 23:06:01 <MNIM> the summer snow line drops slower, naturally 23:06:04 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: the tree line does not "drop" in winter 23:06:23 <MNIM> true. that's why it can't be linked in ottd 23:06:47 <MNIM> as the snow line can vary per season 23:06:56 <Eddi|zuHause> trees need, among other things, a snow-free environment for several months 23:07:29 <MNIM> Id propose to make the treeline the average between summer and winter snow line. 23:07:34 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: you can get the highest seasonal snow line, and set that to be the tree line 23:07:46 <MNIM> or that 23:08:03 <Eddi|zuHause> meaning Z in the above formula 23:08:55 <MNIM> sounds like we've got ourselves the outline for a new trees patch? 23:09:04 <MNIM> now to get someone mad enough to actually code it. :P 23:09:41 <MNIM> anyway, I think it's getting too late for coherent thought for me, so Im withdrawing 23:10:32 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: "we" still have no concept to actually balance tree growth against tree death 23:12:08 <MNIM> trial and error works in nature :P 23:12:25 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 23:24:38 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-86-29-57-43.glfd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 8.0/20111026191032]] 23:37:39 <Eddi|zuHause> trial and error only works reasonably fast if you have immediate feedback 23:38:01 <Eddi|zuHause> that's obviously not the case when it takes 100 ingame years to test 23:42:19 <Eddi|zuHause> also, throwing around the phrase "this is well tested" is a sure way to make sure the patch is never going to trunk :p 23:42:38 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:45:42 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:48:06 *** DDR_ [~chatzilla@142.179.78.88] has joined #openttd 23:55:52 <__ln__> i have matrix A, and it know its inverse too. now solving AX=B is trivial, but how do i use the inverse to solve CX=B, where C is almost like A, but one row multiplied by -1? 23:56:13 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [] 23:57:36 <frosch123> start with C = DA 23:57:51 <frosch123> D being diagonal