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00:12:21 *** JVassie [~James@2.27.86.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:13:28 *** nicfer [~nicfer@190.50.18.22] has joined #openttd 01:13:43 <nicfer> hi 01:14:15 <nicfer> so many time :D 01:16:52 <__ln__> time is uncountable 01:24:55 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [] 01:27:05 <z-MaTRiX> also, this is eternity 01:32:01 *** nicfer [~nicfer@190.50.18.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:40:50 *** nicfer [~nicfer@190.50.26.52] has joined #openttd 01:50:59 *** blotek___ [~blotek@aeih229.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 01:58:21 *** blotek_ [~blotek@aeoe106.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:37:26 *** glx is now known as Guest16016 02:37:26 *** glx_ [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:b91c:6cfd:c68b:ee15] has joined #openttd 02:37:26 *** glx_ is now known as glx 02:37:29 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 02:42:46 <nicfer> can I write a GRF with NML that adds a new vehicle using default game sprites? 02:43:39 *** Guest16016 [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:b91c:6cfd:c68b:ee15] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:49:18 *** blotek___ [~blotek@aeih229.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:26:00 *** rhaeder1 [~quix0r@dslb-094-221-149-164.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 03:30:32 *** rhaeder [~quix0r@dslb-094-221-136-226.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:56:17 <nicfer> I was trying to compile a test grf but I got this error: 03:56:19 <nicfer> nmlc: "input", line 3: Syntax error, unexpected token "name" 03:56:47 <nicfer> oh, I know why 03:56:53 <nicfer> I forgot a semicolon 03:58:03 <nicfer> now I got another error: 03:58:06 <nicfer> nmlc: "input", line 35: Unrecognized identifier 'spritegroup_flatbed_truck_1_goods' encountered 03:59:32 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:b91c:6cfd:c68b:ee15] has quit [Quit: bye] 04:00:08 <nicfer> I'm following the tutorial at http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NMLTutorial/Road_vehicle_item_definition and it told me that it's written so 04:32:45 *** nicfer [~nicfer@190.50.26.52] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:41:45 *** nicfer [~nicfer@190.50.47.251] has joined #openttd 05:07:43 *** supermop_ [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #openttd [] 05:20:31 *** supermop_ [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 05:31:40 *** nicfer [~nicfer@190.50.47.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:55:24 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B751AC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:55:59 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B73A0D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 05:56:36 *** Elukka [Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 06:20:31 *** JVassie [~James@2.27.86.104] has joined #openttd 06:44:05 *** Qantourisc [~Qantouris@78-22-225-157.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:51:45 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e0a9627.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:59:40 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 07:11:16 *** Qantourisc [~Qantouris@78-22-225-157.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 07:23:18 *** JVassie [~James@2.27.86.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:23:57 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 07:29:44 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 07:32:53 <planetmaker> moin 07:38:14 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 07:51:38 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 07:55:45 <Terkhen> good morning 07:56:40 <Terkhen> hmm... that spritegroup nicfer mentioned is from ogfx-rv, and I remember getting that error... maybe he's compiling a broken revision 07:59:02 <Terkhen> http://xkcd.com/974/ 08:01:12 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-053-063.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 08:05:34 <planetmaker> hello Terkhen 08:06:15 <planetmaker> from what I read, that error happens if one doesn't read the following two pages of the tutorial which introduce the graphics. But I didn't test 08:09:47 *** Celestar [~dax@89.204.153.75] has joined #openttd 08:13:26 <Terkhen> oh, right, code for the tutorials :) 08:14:58 *** Celestar_ [~dax@89.204.153.18] has joined #openttd 08:15:24 *** Celestar [~dax@89.204.153.75] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:15:40 <dihedral> thank you Rubidium 08:15:44 <dihedral> and good morning 08:22:30 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B0C5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 08:23:48 <Celestar_> \o 08:23:52 *** Celestar_ is now known as Celestar 08:28:10 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 08:28:17 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #openttd [] 08:31:52 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@ip-86-49-59-25.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 08:32:05 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-020-186.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 08:36:37 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 08:40:43 <Celestar> *yawn* 08:40:43 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 08:42:26 <peter1138> hi 08:44:24 <andythenorth> lo 08:48:00 * andythenorth just had the worrying thought that MB doesn't understand the cargo system :O 08:48:26 <andythenorth> I've been poking at it for 3 years, on the assurance that it's perfect, and I must be the one who's stupid 08:49:43 <andythenorth> he thinks that classes are OR when it's convenient to him for them to be OR, and AND when it's convenient for them to be AND 08:50:04 <andythenorth> and in any case he wants to use explicit labels anyway 08:50:32 <Celestar> cargo system? 08:51:29 <andythenorth> classes 08:52:04 <Celestar> ahh 08:53:11 <andythenorth> fibre crops are piece goods and bulk, and may travel by wagons that are refittable to bulk, wagons that refit to piece goods, or wagons that refit to piece goods AND bulk 08:53:33 <andythenorth> but food is express and refrigerated, and may only travel in vehicles that provide both express AND refrigerated 08:55:37 <andythenorth> this latter condition can only be achieved by excluding refrigerated cargo from non-refrigerated express vehicles 08:57:40 <Celestar> uh huh ... 08:57:44 <Celestar> mess, anyone? 08:58:37 <peter1138> how about don't overcomplicate it :p 08:58:45 <andythenorth> hmm 08:58:57 <andythenorth> peter1138: I'm trying to under-complicate it 08:59:17 <andythenorth> anyway I'm wrong 08:59:39 <andythenorth> fibre crops are intended to only travel in wagons that provide piece goods AND bulk 09:01:14 <andythenorth> I think the classes are using AND, which is undocumented 09:02:06 <planetmaker> uhm... piece and bulk? 09:02:33 <andythenorth> planetmaker: according to spec 09:02:47 <andythenorth> planetmaker: assume I have no opinion on any cargo classes until I understand the system 09:02:56 <andythenorth> *specific classes, especially FIRS classes 09:03:24 <andythenorth> I have been treating them as OR 09:03:36 <andythenorth> I know Pikka has treated them as OR, because he told me to 09:03:40 <planetmaker> the use is unspecified 09:03:53 <peter1138> it is OR 09:03:59 <andythenorth> see train prop 28/29 docs, the implication is that it's AND 09:04:22 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B0C5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:04:52 <planetmaker> quite right 09:04:56 <planetmaker> though... 09:05:01 <andythenorth> vehicles should be providing an implicit AND by excluding all classes they don't support 09:05:09 <andythenorth> according to the spec 09:05:42 <andythenorth> it's a horrible way to set an AND, but probably the only smart way in an action 0 09:06:09 <peter1138> don't forget the XOR :D 09:06:21 <planetmaker> that's irrelevant as it's not a class thing 09:06:24 <andythenorth> the XOR is like lighting a bomb 09:06:37 <andythenorth> it ties classes and labels back together in the most horrible way :P 09:06:59 <planetmaker> yes... 09:07:15 <andythenorth> it destroys the very practical abstraction that classes could have offered 09:07:39 <andythenorth> it doesn't pay any respect to 'stuff changes' :| 09:07:59 <planetmaker> it'd be easier to have classes. And labels as unconditional override 09:08:10 <andythenorth> that's what the cb route will do :) 09:08:23 <andythenorth> frosch solved this...2 years ago :P 09:08:46 <andythenorth> me and Pikka agreed with him...then did....nothing 09:09:18 <andythenorth> :P 09:09:56 <andythenorth> anyway 09:09:58 * andythenorth -> work 09:10:02 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 09:21:43 *** pjpe [ae5b514a@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 09:24:05 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 09:30:28 *** andythenorth [~Andy@78-86-194-127.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 09:33:18 * andythenorth wonders if 'may' and 'must' should be made explicit as two distinct cargo props 09:33:36 <andythenorth> (or as two return values from a 'what are my classes' cb on cargos) 09:34:09 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B0C5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 09:34:30 <andythenorth> for cases like refrigerated, covered, oversized, requires pressure discharge 09:34:47 <andythenorth> hazardous 09:34:57 <andythenorth> someone's going to invent 'must be shock proofed' at some point 09:35:30 <andythenorth> all of those are 'musts' in addition to the fundamental of whether the cargo is bulk, piece, liquid (and arguably neo-bulk) 09:36:01 <andythenorth> making it a cb would enable witty things, like milk needing refrigeration only after 1900 or whatever 09:36:08 <andythenorth> which is almost certainly a bad idea 09:36:10 <planetmaker> that sounds what I just wrote, andythenorth :-P 09:36:16 <andythenorth> sorry, was cycling :P 09:36:19 * andythenorth -> logs 09:36:23 <planetmaker> no, in the FIRS issue 09:36:36 <planetmaker> for sugar cane 09:37:14 <planetmaker> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/3218#change-8470 09:37:33 * andythenorth reads 09:37:52 <andythenorth> if we can figure out the right answer, it could be a good time to make a 'big' change to this 09:38:07 <andythenorth> some of the older sets are quite dead anyway wrt FIRS, ECS support 09:38:10 <planetmaker> basically the conclusion of that is, that cargo classes are both, "and" and "or". Depending on which bits you look at 09:38:30 * andythenorth thinks we should non-violently deprecated the current methods 09:38:52 <andythenorth> basically I want to write 'FIRS will only work reliably with vehicle sets that implement a refitting cb' 09:39:18 <andythenorth> and then decide an interpretation of classes (AND or OR), write it firmly in the wiki and stick to it 09:39:39 <andythenorth> HEQS, FISH, OpenGFX can all be updted 09:40:02 <andythenorth> CETS, UKRS 2, egrvts 2, french set, dutch set, 2cc set are all being actively developed 09:40:08 <andythenorth> US set is being revived 09:40:13 <andythenorth> pikka may take over canset 09:40:30 <andythenorth> DB set will do whatever DB set will do, same for new ships 2 09:40:36 <andythenorth> japan set is being actively developed 09:42:47 <andythenorth> planetmaker: the excluding is a headache no? 09:43:28 <andythenorth> it makes a nonsense of the class system 09:44:12 <andythenorth> if I add 'vehicle must be red' I shouldn't rely on newgrf authors in the past excluding that bit in case I invent it 09:44:15 <planetmaker> Not necessarily 09:44:26 <planetmaker> like piece goods and not armoured makes certainly sense 09:44:59 <andythenorth> I wonder if that makes sense only because we're familiar with it 09:45:06 <planetmaker> But mostly it needs a clarification of how it's supposed to be used 09:45:29 <andythenorth> indeed 09:45:51 <andythenorth> test case: if armoured didn't exist, and we added it now... 09:46:52 <andythenorth> option a) vehicles exclude that class explicitly because they don't know about it 09:47:01 <andythenorth> option b) vehicles allow that bit explicitly 09:47:12 <andythenorth> option c) vehicles neither allow nor exclude that bit 09:47:35 <andythenorth> which would have been the correct option - for a wagon that allows piece goods 09:47:36 <andythenorth> ? 09:49:57 * andythenorth suspects that (c) might be the right answer 09:50:12 <andythenorth> vehicle remains non-committal about classes the author didn't know about 09:50:49 <andythenorth> the sensible cargo author then sets piece goods and armoured 09:51:03 <andythenorth> their cargo gets transported by anything that refits piece goods 09:51:19 <andythenorth> they then ask / hope / beg for more accurate vehicle set support 09:51:41 <andythenorth> this suggests that classes are OR not AND 09:57:56 <andythenorth> hmm 09:58:31 <andythenorth> if a vehicle grf declared which cargo classes it knew about... 10:00:57 <planetmaker> as the vehicle NewGRF decides about which it uses, it doesn't need to declare it 10:01:02 <planetmaker> it just allows cargos or not 10:01:33 <planetmaker> just allowing by cargo class certainly is the easiest approach. And it already works 10:03:13 <planetmaker> but a CB which allows things like allow if CC == bulk || (CC == piece,oversized) would solve all these issues of and or or 10:03:24 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@ip-86-49-59-25.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:24:20 <andythenorth> planetmaker: so the cargo just treats all cargo as OR and the vehicle author decides? Works for me 10:25:00 <andythenorth> the proper domain of how to transport things is defined by the vehicles 10:25:18 <andythenorth> in which case we should (continue?) setting cargos as OR 10:25:39 <planetmaker> well... this has issues, too :-). But might be the best. As a vehicle set author knows best what his vehicle can transport 10:25:49 <andythenorth> what about cases like 'milk should be refrigerated after 1900' ? 10:25:58 <andythenorth> is that a bad case? 10:26:14 *** DDR_ [~chatzilla@142.179.78.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:27:26 <planetmaker> adding a callback imho doesn't help the issue with classes and is beside the CC discussion 10:28:23 <planetmaker> even when that is a new and possibly better method we should use the most sane way of traditional CC without consideration of a CB 10:29:07 <planetmaker> i.e. let's not consider that, unless I'm given a good reason how it solves the original problem 10:29:58 <planetmaker> I'm missing a "." behind "method" 10:37:25 *** andythenorth [~Andy@78-86-194-127.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 10:37:44 *** andythenorth [~Andy@78-86-194-127.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 10:49:50 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-053-063.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 10:50:28 *** erik [~erik@vhe-490300.sshn.net] has joined #openttd 11:02:08 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [] 11:07:01 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-4d008696.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 11:13:08 <planetmaker> hm, cargo classes are a bit. Are they "all apply" or "one or more apply" when set by a cargo? 11:13:19 <planetmaker> both makes somewhat sense 11:15:38 <andythenorth> planetmaker: :) 11:15:51 <andythenorth> think about it long enough...we'll find the answer :P 11:16:04 <andythenorth> I think I can summarise 11:16:30 <andythenorth> 1. if the new proposed cb is used by the vehicle, the final decision rests with the vehicle set author 11:16:55 <andythenorth> 2. we need to agree a convention for the 'traditional' method and try to enforce it 11:17:19 <andythenorth> if we ask Pikka, I'm 99% certain he's working to 'one or more apply' 11:17:57 <andythenorth> I am proposing for FIRS that we treat them as per your comments in the ticket, i.e. OR 11:18:17 <andythenorth> if vehicles choose to AND them, there's not much we can do about that 11:18:29 <andythenorth> "This is a bit mask of all cargo classes to which this cargo belongs, out of the following:" 11:18:50 <andythenorth> I read that as 'there are multiple sets which this cargo is a member of" 11:19:07 <andythenorth> rather than "the combination of cargo classes describes precisely one set which the cargo is a member of" 11:19:20 <planetmaker> andythenorth: the question is "is member of" or "can be member of" 11:19:43 <Eddi|zuHause> it wouldn't make any sense if a cargo is "bulk AND piece goods"... only "bulk OR piece goods" 11:19:49 <planetmaker> i.e. bulk + piece is mutually exclusive for one detailed representation. Still the cargo could be available as one OR the other 11:20:03 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: it may not make sense, but that *is* the apparent spec 11:20:17 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: it does make sense. Just not at the same time 11:20:34 <Celestar> Yexo: what about your fence helper? :) 11:20:36 <planetmaker> i.e. water could be piece or liquid (water in boxed bottles or in a tanker) 11:20:37 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: hence "OR" 11:21:05 <andythenorth> but the box car should be excluding liquid 11:21:11 <andythenorth> according to the spec 11:21:15 <Yexo> Celestar: I hid some trouble, wasn't able to fix it soon enough and put it away for a bit. Than yesterday I accidentally deleted part of that code 11:21:22 <andythenorth> so water should not travel by box car. according to the spec 11:21:39 <Celestar> heh 11:21:47 <andythenorth> if the box car doesn't exclude liquid, it becomes refittable for all liquids, which is odd 11:21:50 <Celestar> Yexo: you need your diff back? :P 11:21:59 <planetmaker> andythenorth: bottled it makes sense :-) 11:22:01 <Yexo> nah :) 11:22:14 <andythenorth> planetmaker: you make sense. But you're not compliant with the spec :P 11:22:14 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no, "not exclude" is not the same as "include" 11:22:24 <andythenorth> true 11:22:31 * andythenorth has logical flaw 11:22:39 <planetmaker> tri-state logic :-) 11:22:48 <planetmaker> yes / no / not-defined 11:22:49 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: a box car would be refittable to cargos that are "piece goods OR liquid" 11:23:05 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but not to cargos that are purely "liquid" 11:23:12 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: but cargos AND 11:23:18 <andythenorth> the spec is quite clear about it 11:23:27 <andythenorth> a cargo isn't piece goods OR liquid, it's piece goods AND liquid 11:23:32 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: which means that water would need to get cargo class liquid and piece goods. In principle 11:23:34 <andythenorth> so you need a vehicle that supports both 11:23:43 <planetmaker> which means changing default cargos 11:24:00 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: logical AND is a "common" OR, while logical OR is a "common" AND 11:24:02 <andythenorth> for a vehicle to support both, it must allow piece goods and liquid. This 'undefined' route doesn't work 11:24:15 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it's quite likely that the person who wrote the specs messed that up 11:24:30 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: this is why my first suggestion this morning is that MB doesn't understand the cargo scheme 11:24:42 <andythenorth> for years we've been told it's us who have the problem 11:24:48 <andythenorth> and that the specs are unambiguous 11:24:50 <andythenorth> and perfect 11:25:00 <andythenorth> the spec is quite clear here about the AND: http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0Trains#Cargo_classes_.2828.2C_29.29 11:25:04 <andythenorth> not a bit of doubt 11:25:45 <andythenorth> to transport food (which is express, refrigerated) you need a vehicle that is express AND refrigerated 11:26:07 <andythenorth> and you're non-refrigerated express vehicles must exclude refrigerated 11:26:25 <andythenorth> you're / your /s 11:26:41 <andythenorth> otherwise you fail spec 11:27:39 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: proof by example? 11:27:43 <andythenorth> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0Trains#Cargo_classes_.2828.2C_29.29 11:27:53 <andythenorth> last paragraph 11:28:17 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: an example doesn't make a generic spec. 11:28:46 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: shall we suggest that I think the spec is either (a) wrong or (b) incomplete or (c) just badly written? 11:28:48 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: this paragraph allows no conclusion how to interpret "bitmask(CC_BULK, CC_PIECE_GOODS)" 11:29:01 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: (b) 11:29:08 <andythenorth> b? 11:29:13 <andythenorth> b OR c 11:29:16 <andythenorth> b AND c? 11:29:38 <Celestar> b XOR c? 11:29:54 <Eddi|zuHause> my answer is complete. 11:30:03 <andythenorth> b XOR c, and if you know about specific sentences in the spec and put them in a bit mask... 11:30:25 <peter1138> heh 11:30:36 <peter1138> still on this, heh 11:31:11 <andythenorth> yarp 11:36:39 *** SpBot_ [spbot@skrblz.fixme.fi] has joined #openttd 11:36:41 <andythenorth> Yexo: it helps if we forget the current methods and think only about the new cb proposed by frosch 11:36:53 <Yexo> andythenorth: what about tourist: are they either passengers or express? 11:36:56 <andythenorth> I am quite prepared to say "FIRS doesn't work well with older sets that don't use the cb" 11:37:08 <peter1138> they are ORed 11:37:23 *** Netsplit reticulum.oftc.net <-> solenoid.oftc.net quits: SpBot, HerzogDeXtEr2, Neon, APTX, TWerkhoven, Elukka, MNIM, @SmatZ, yorick, __ln__, (+6 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 11:37:36 <andythenorth> Yexo: tourists? I don't know. 11:37:36 <Yexo> the spec says: "This is a bit mask of all cargo classes to which this cargo belongs, out of the following: " which to me clearly indicates it's AND, not OR 11:37:48 <andythenorth> I was going to ask you what the spec said :P 11:37:50 <peter1138> ah 11:37:55 <andythenorth> I'm bored of having to try and figure this out :D 11:37:58 <peter1138> sorry i was on the vehicle properties 11:38:10 <Yexo> for the vehilce properties it's indeed OR 11:38:16 <peter1138> the cargo belongs to all 11:38:23 <planetmaker> so... we always stick to all 11:38:25 <andythenorth> one set, or n sets? 11:38:29 <peter1138> that doesn't specify AND or OR 11:38:45 <peter1138> just that it does 11:39:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i think there need to be two sets of cargo classes. "basic" categorization that is ORed (bulk, piece, liquid) and "specific" categorization that is ANDed (refg, express, armored, ...) 11:39:04 *** Elu is now known as Elukka 11:39:12 <planetmaker> yes ^ 11:39:17 <peter1138> i think you need to just stop making everything overly complex 11:39:32 <planetmaker> though the specification would then need be specific to the "base" class 11:39:37 <planetmaker> At which point we're back to the CB 11:39:44 <andythenorth> I think we're always back to the cb 11:39:55 <peter1138> if (_gted[engine].cargo_allowed & cs->classes) SetBit(mask, cs->Index()); 11:40:01 <peter1138> do you want that to read 11:40:03 <andythenorth> fwiw, last time discussed, me pikka and frosch seemed to think the cb solved this 11:40:06 <Yexo> if you force vehicle sets to use the cb you might as well force them to add specific support for firs 11:40:13 <peter1138> if ((_gted[engine].cargo_allowed & cs->classes) == cs->classes) SetBit(mask, cs->Index()); 11:40:30 <peter1138> that would make all classes required, not just one 11:40:34 *** Netsplit over, joins: SmatZ, dihedral 11:40:34 *** mode/#openttd [+o SmatZ] by ChanServ 11:40:41 <Yexo> peter1138: that breaks backwards and ttdpatch compatibility 11:40:43 <peter1138> and probably break some existing stuff :) 11:40:45 *** Netsplit over, joins: avdg 11:40:45 <Yexo> so that's not really an option 11:41:06 <frosch> btw. there is one valid point about not adding a cargoclass "clean". it does not influence whether a vehicle can be refitted to it or not; only the costs. So the "clean" could as well be added to some other property. e.g. 15 "freight status" 11:41:15 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe we should completely revamp the system for grfv8? 11:41:25 <frosch> then there would also be room for "need cleaning before loading" and "needs cleaning after unloading" 11:42:25 <peter1138> Yexo, also making it and would make it useless for new stuff too 11:42:28 <peter1138> so no win there 11:42:33 <peter1138> so what's the problem again? lol 11:44:24 <planetmaker> hm, valid point, frosch 11:44:41 <planetmaker> though it could be considered that. 11:44:43 <Eddi|zuHause> there are two separate problems: the existing classes cause too many exceptions (e.g. wood, steel, livestock), and trying to resolve these exceptions opened concerns about incompleteness of the specs 11:44:59 <planetmaker> like food wagons always contain a sign like "don't fill in chemicals" or similar 11:45:38 <Eddi|zuHause> DRG had two kinds of refrigerated wagons, one for general food, and one for fish 11:45:53 <Eddi|zuHause> they exclude each other 11:46:54 <andythenorth> frosch: new property for things that are 'must' rather than 'can' 11:47:11 <andythenorth> e.g. refrigerated, clean, covered etc 11:47:30 <Celestar> hm. 11:47:43 <andythenorth> I dislike a new prop for this 11:48:02 <Celestar> to me. "bulk" "liquid" "boxed" etc might be another property than, say, "refigerated" 11:48:12 <andythenorth> me too 11:48:29 <andythenorth> but adding more props might just make it worse not better 11:48:48 <peter1138> seems to me that the spec caters for "can't be done" 11:48:54 <andythenorth> refrigerated is a bad case 11:49:01 <peter1138> whereas you want something to cater for "isn't done" 11:49:05 <Celestar> andythenorth: probably ÃP 11:49:08 *** MNIM [~mBuntu@ip5452ffad.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #openttd 11:49:46 <peter1138> milk & oil could both go in the same tanker 11:49:51 <peter1138> (not together) 11:49:52 <andythenorth> at once! 11:50:03 <Celestar> erm. 11:50:07 <peter1138> why would you need "clean"? 11:50:16 <andythenorth> affects refit cost 11:50:16 <Celestar> hopefully not :P 11:50:19 <andythenorth> not refittability 11:50:22 <Celestar> IRL, not even sequentially 11:50:28 <peter1138> you have to refit to go from oil to milk and vice versa 11:50:42 <Celestar> food tankers may not carry anything else than food. 11:50:46 <andythenorth> clean might be a case better solved another way 11:50:57 <andythenorth> 'clean' started out as 'foodstuff' 11:51:07 <peter1138> Celestar, as i said, catering for "isn't done" rather than "can't be done" 11:51:21 <Celestar> Jet A-1 tankers may not carry anything else than Jet A-1. 11:51:27 <Celestar> not even Jet A 11:51:41 <peter1138> disallow refit after it's been used :D 11:51:46 <Celestar> :D 11:52:10 <peter1138> i still think it's being made overly complex 11:52:28 * andythenorth would be a big fan of having it simpler 11:52:32 <Celestar> hey, this is openttd :P 11:52:41 <Celestar> if you want it simple, play Quake :D 11:52:50 <andythenorth> if you want it simple, play Dope Wars 11:53:01 <andythenorth> or puzzle bobble 11:53:06 <Celestar> if (see_mob) shoot(mob); 11:53:38 <Celestar> I'd love to remove refit altogether :D 11:53:44 <andythenorth> refrigerated is a bad case, because refrigerated was not really available until a certain date 11:54:02 <Celestar> but have something like shunting yards :D 11:54:45 <peter1138> why is it a bad case? 11:54:56 <andythenorth> if food is refrigerated AND express, there won't be any food transport before ~some date 11:54:56 <peter1138> if it's not available, you just can't transport stuff that needs it 11:55:22 <peter1138> but it's OR 11:55:25 <Celestar> something like ... Maschen :D 11:55:34 <planetmaker> Maschendrahtzaun? 11:55:44 <peter1138> food is refrigerated or express 11:55:54 <Celestar> no planetmaker :P 11:55:59 <peter1138> fruit is actually bulk or refrigerated ;D 11:56:06 <andythenorth> or piece goods 11:56:12 <andythenorth> or express 11:56:15 <peter1138> no 11:56:19 <andythenorth> fruit == 'most cargos' 11:56:22 <peter1138> i'm talking about the default cargos 11:56:32 <andythenorth> right 11:57:11 <andythenorth> so the prop28/29 stuff on the wiki *is* wrong 11:57:12 <andythenorth> ? 11:57:19 <peter1138> if you're making a food-type cargo, it makes sense to use the default cargo classes for that 11:57:25 <andythenorth> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0Trains#Cargo_classes_.2828.2C_29.29 11:57:33 <peter1138> what's wrong about it? 11:57:42 <andythenorth> my logic probably 11:57:51 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no, it's just _unspecified_ 11:58:03 <peter1138> "match the classes" is perhaps vague 11:58:14 <peter1138> it's "match any of the classes" not "match all the classes" 11:58:27 <andythenorth> bah 11:58:32 * andythenorth is not clever enough 11:59:52 <andythenorth> english is vague 12:00:03 <andythenorth> but 'does not require refrigeration' seems quite clear to me 12:00:07 <andythenorth> require == AND 12:00:40 <peter1138> AND NOT, yes 12:00:47 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it draws conclusions from some hypothetical "real world" that is not part of the specs, and open to interpretation 12:00:52 <peter1138> allowed AND NOT disallowed 12:01:17 <peter1138> allowed/disallowed is a list of cargos, not a list of classes 12:02:00 <peter1138> s/list/bitmask/g :) 12:02:18 <andythenorth> so for food, in the spec case. with two vehicles 12:02:34 <andythenorth> vehicle A is as per spec - it allows express, but excludes refigerated 12:02:40 <planetmaker> is over-sized and overweight = neo-bulk? 12:02:52 <andythenorth> vehicle B allows express, and does not include or exclude refrigerated 12:03:14 <andythenorth> planetmaker: maybe, maybe not. Depends on whoever invented it turning it up to clarify 12:03:31 <peter1138> vehicle A & B are what? 12:03:34 <andythenorth> anything 12:03:37 <andythenorth> whatever you like 12:03:40 <andythenorth> it's your set :) 12:03:41 <peter1138> ok 12:03:58 <peter1138> what's the problem with them? 12:04:04 <andythenorth> (I'm just writing cargos, vehicle authors control what travels where) 12:04:30 <peter1138> vehicle allows express, but excludes refrigerated. therefore it cannot carry food. 12:04:36 <peter1138> *vehicle A 12:04:53 <peter1138> vehicle B allows express, but does not care about refrigerated, therefore it can carry food. 12:05:00 <andythenorth> this is good 12:05:05 <peter1138> (because food can be moved fast) 12:05:08 <Celestar> just if you guys think you build big stations: 12:05:20 <peter1138> never mind that it could be stuck on the map for 2 years :p 12:05:27 <andythenorth> so the industry set author should not be trying to enforce AND categories. It's none of their business 12:05:31 <Celestar> http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=53.406513,10.06073&spn=0.018522,0.045447&t=h&z=15&vpsrc=6 12:07:04 <andythenorth> so where's the problem? :P 12:08:13 <peter1138> that's what i keep saying ;) 12:09:22 <andythenorth> vehicle C: the author wants to only allow cargos that are express AND refrigerated 12:09:28 <andythenorth> how? 12:09:45 <andythenorth> exclude all other classes 12:10:18 <peter1138> no 12:11:29 <peter1138> what if it's hazardous food ? ;) 12:11:43 <peter1138> hehe 12:11:55 <andythenorth> like a giant burger? 12:12:14 <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch> btw. there is one valid point about not adding a cargoclass "clean". it does not influence whether a vehicle can be refitted to it or not; only the costs. So the "clean" could as well be added to some other property. e.g. 15 "freight status" <-- then that same should apply to "needs refrigeration" or "needs special protection" 12:12:16 <peter1138> hazardous, oversized, refrigerated, express 12:12:34 <peter1138> and passengers 12:12:41 <peter1138> soylent green is people 12:13:06 <planetmaker> AND bulk. concurrently 12:13:07 <frosch> Eddi|zuHause: why? either a wagon is refridgerated or not 12:13:13 <frosch> that is refittability 12:13:17 <peter1138> :D 12:13:34 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch: but i _can_ put milk in a normal box van. 12:13:44 <Eddi|zuHause> "milk (cans)" 12:14:02 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch: i just can't move it for several days 12:14:10 <Eddi|zuHause> s/for/over/ 12:14:13 <frosch> then milk should be classified as liquid + piece goods + refridgerated 12:14:38 <frosch> Eddi|zuHause: everything in ttd moves for several days :p 12:14:40 <planetmaker> frosch: and water as liquid + piece 12:15:08 <frosch> anyway, packaged milk and water is rather "goods" 12:15:09 <andythenorth> peter1138: you said 'no' to excluding above 12:15:11 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch: but the current interpretation is that it should be (liquid + piece)*refrigerated 12:15:16 <andythenorth> but what's the correct answer? 12:15:16 <frosch> so milk is no piece goods 12:15:45 <andythenorth> frosch: a wagon is either refrigerated, or not, or doesn't know 12:15:46 <frosch> you can package everything 12:15:56 <andythenorth> piece goods should be the default class :P 12:15:58 <frosch> so, just because something can be packaged, it is no piece goods 12:16:00 <andythenorth> everything can be packaged 12:16:12 <andythenorth> default refit all vehicles to anything that has class piece goods 12:16:20 <peter1138> andythenorth, it still allows express or refrigerated 12:16:22 <andythenorth> instant forward compatibility for all time 12:16:34 <andythenorth> peter1138: yes 12:16:48 <frosch> the important fact is that you do not package milk when transporting it from the farm to the dairy 12:17:06 <frosch> while the dairy just produces food (packaged piece goods) 12:17:12 <frosch> milk (packaged) is nonsense 12:17:23 <peter1138> exactly 12:17:43 <andythenorth> meh 12:17:53 <andythenorth> I think anything that is predicated on a discussion of real cargos doesn't help 12:18:17 <andythenorth> if $someone wrote an unambiguous spec some of this would go away 12:18:51 <andythenorth> frosch: what is milk in churns if not packaged (real world examples don't help, there's always a counter-case) 12:19:35 <frosch> that is a pre-historic type of transportation that can be done for anything liquid 12:19:45 <frosch> so just allow boxvans to transport liquid before 1950 12:19:45 <Noldo> :D 12:19:48 <andythenorth> but it's not pre-historic for ottd 12:19:59 <andythenorth> frosch: date based refits using a cb :D 12:20:05 <andythenorth> suddenly all your routes break :) 12:20:53 <frosch> that is actually a valid point about mb's scheme. early wagons can carry basically anything; while wagons introduced later are specialised 12:21:03 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the traditional way to do this is offer a new vehicle with fewer refit options, but other advantages (increased load, increased speed, etc.) 12:22:33 <andythenorth> in the case of vehicle C (author wants express AND refrigerated), they can't 12:22:37 <andythenorth> is the answer 12:22:46 <andythenorth> it's invalid 12:23:39 <planetmaker> that's what you have the possibility to select individual cargos 12:23:51 <andythenorth> sort of 12:24:45 <andythenorth> so the spec is firmly OR? 12:26:05 <andythenorth> when setting cargo classes on cargo prop 16? 12:26:13 <andythenorth> it's a list of sets to which the cargo belongs? 12:28:02 <frosch> cargoclasses of a cargo are OR 12:28:09 <andythenorth> awesome 12:28:29 <andythenorth> so can I set 'refrigerated' as one of the classes on steel? :) 12:28:34 <andythenorth> that's valid? 12:28:40 <andythenorth> 'cold steel' 12:29:12 <peter1138> *grone* 12:29:16 <andythenorth> I don't mean I propose to do this, I just mean, "it would be valid" 12:29:17 <andythenorth> :) 12:29:33 <andythenorth> stupid maybe 12:29:40 <andythenorth> but logically holds up 12:29:55 <frosch> a cargo that is defined as piecegoods or liquid can be transported by either tankers or fladbed wagons 12:30:18 <andythenorth> yup 12:30:24 <frosch> it is not the purpose of a vehicle to set the EXCLUDE-mask to the NOT-value of the INCLUDE-mask 12:31:27 <andythenorth> a cargo that is piecegoods or liquid or refrigerated can be transported by tankers, flatbed wagons, or any vehicle with refrigeration 12:31:58 <andythenorth> a cargo that is liquid or refrigerated can be transported by any tankers or any vehicle with refrigeration 12:32:02 <frosch> refridgeration is a class the is more useable for the EXCLUDE-mask, not for the INCLUDE-mask 12:32:13 <andythenorth> more usable maybe 12:32:21 <andythenorth> but to be logically strict about the spec... 12:32:31 <andythenorth> and free ourselves from 10m interpretations... 12:32:36 <frosch> not all classes can be treated the same 12:32:50 <frosch> "express" is espeically broken 12:32:51 <andythenorth> all animals are equal, but some are more equal? 12:33:29 <frosch> yes, horses and cows are equal; especially the cows 12:33:49 <andythenorth> http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=all+animals+are+equal+but+some+are+more+equal+than+others&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 12:34:03 <andythenorth> frosch: how do you feel about a new prop? 12:34:13 <andythenorth> for 'additional cargo crap' 12:34:23 * andythenorth thinks it might be logical, but just as much of a mess 12:34:53 <frosch> cargo classes are for refittablity. period. 12:35:48 <planetmaker> so do we unify oversized and neo-bulk? 12:35:57 <andythenorth> only when we know what the intention was 12:36:05 <planetmaker> we'll never know 12:36:22 <andythenorth> neo-bulk doesn't necessarily mean heavy or large 12:36:44 <planetmaker> it means unhandy 12:36:47 <andythenorth> yes 12:37:06 <andythenorth> not neatly packaged 12:37:30 <andythenorth> not going to flow nicely 12:37:45 <andythenorth> logs are the epitome of neo bulk 12:39:34 <peter1138> piece goods ;) 12:39:50 <peter1138> well, wood is anyway 12:39:53 <andythenorth> he 12:39:56 <peter1138> both types 12:40:05 *** blotek [~blotek@aeih229.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 12:40:09 <frosch> i wondered whether that "pouring" thingie is the opposite of "neo-bulk". i.e. whether every "bulk" cargo is either "pouring" or "neo-bulk" 12:40:57 <peter1138> it's stuff that's "pourable" in ttd-land 12:41:05 <peter1138> coal, gravel, sand 12:41:26 <peter1138> grain, wheat, maize 12:41:37 <peter1138> copper :D 12:41:42 <andythenorth> frosch: every cargo is either bulk (dry, liquid) or break-bulk 12:41:50 <andythenorth> break-bulk = piece goods 12:41:51 <peter1138> sugar, toffee and cotton candy, yes 12:42:22 <andythenorth> neo-bulk is a sub-class of piece goods, for things that are basically shipped like bulk, but can't be poured 12:42:42 <andythenorth> I would leave bulk alone 12:42:52 <andythenorth> although probably lots of people will fall into the same trap as me 12:43:15 <andythenorth> they will think of 'bulk' as bulky, rather than spending an afternoon reading about the classifications of the international cargo industry 12:43:36 <Eddi|zuHause> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=979089#p979089 <-- proposal (avoiding the word "bulk") 12:44:11 <frosch> well, if every bulk cargo is either pouring or neo-bulk, then one of those classes is too much 12:44:21 <planetmaker> andythenorth: it really never occured to me that bulk would mean the same as bulky... 12:44:30 <planetmaker> (yes, it doesn't) 12:44:36 <andythenorth> planetmaker: you are more germanic that mean :P 12:44:43 <andythenorth> you are probably more used to precision 12:44:47 <frosch> neo-bulk = bulk AND (NOT pouring); resp, pouring = bulk AND (NOT neo-bulk) 12:44:56 <andythenorth> and less used to spending half your life socially unpicking ambiguity :P 12:45:08 * andythenorth reads proposal by Eddi|zuHause 12:45:27 <andythenorth> I'd be quite prepared to break all previous classes, and basically go for a v2 of the schema 12:48:35 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: that's a bit problematic, too: consider water: liquid, piece, clean (when transported in tanker, doesn't matter when palettized) 12:50:20 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: possibly needs further refinement 12:50:54 <peter1138> pure refined water 12:52:20 <planetmaker> the longer I think about it, the better it seems to me to treat it as 'and'. And as such a cargo / industry set has to decide whether milk is liquid or piece goods 12:52:50 <planetmaker> vehicle sets then still can do the other thing, when they explicitly cater for milk 12:52:54 <peter1138> planetmaker, the default cargos wouldn't work 12:52:56 <andythenorth> milk is liquid 12:53:04 <andythenorth> milk is only piece goods when packed 12:53:08 <andythenorth> packing != cargo 12:53:12 <planetmaker> peter1138: how not? 12:53:13 <andythenorth> all cargos can be packed into piece goods 12:53:17 <peter1138> food would be express and refrigerated 12:53:38 <planetmaker> yup 12:53:43 <planetmaker> which is fine 12:53:55 <peter1138> right, now which sets define that? 12:53:58 <peter1138> *vehicle sets 12:54:01 <andythenorth> and not transportable in many sets until > 1900 or so 12:54:32 <planetmaker> the vehicle set decides itself anyway what it does with the cargo classes given for a cargo 12:54:49 <planetmaker> it's about how it most consistently can be used what we have 12:55:09 * andythenorth gets it 12:55:29 <andythenorth> when setting cargos, there's no code difference between AND or OR 12:55:42 <andythenorth> but we as industry set authors have to *make* a fricking decision 12:55:48 <andythenorth> and so there should be a convention for that 12:55:53 <andythenorth> currently it's all over the place 12:56:12 <andythenorth> but the actual refit is controlled by vehicle set, not industry 12:56:29 <peter1138> you still have some confusion? 12:56:38 <andythenorth> no 12:56:40 <peter1138> good 12:56:44 <andythenorth> just waiting for everyone to agree on something 12:56:49 <andythenorth> and change a spec somewhere 12:56:56 <andythenorth> might take a while... 12:57:41 <peter1138> the spec's fine 12:57:53 <planetmaker> it's ambigeous 12:57:54 <peter1138> and changing it breaks anything already out there 12:58:03 <planetmaker> on how it should be used 12:58:10 <andythenorth> peter1138: by 'spec' you mean wiki, or code? 13:00:59 <peter1138> ok, i changed the wording to "match any of the classes" 13:01:02 <peter1138> what's ambiguous now? 13:04:37 <planetmaker> ... 13:05:11 <planetmaker> and what's the reason that and is not applicable? 13:05:33 <peter1138> pardon? 13:05:37 <planetmaker> i.e. you just change the specs 13:05:51 <peter1138> i clarified them 13:05:52 <planetmaker> previously both arguments were similarily valid 13:06:03 <peter1138> to state what actually happens 13:06:19 <planetmaker> 'what happens' is what vehicle sets choose to make happen 13:06:25 <planetmaker> It's not what openttd does 13:06:30 <peter1138> huh? 13:06:41 <peter1138> ok, i dunno what you're talking about now :) 13:07:53 <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2083/setting_classes.png 13:08:21 <planetmaker> errm... don't you think it should be clarified at the *cargo* definition rather? If so? 13:08:26 <planetmaker> What about the other vehicles? 13:09:09 <peter1138> i just clarified that bit of the spec, the bit which andythenorth kept pasting around 13:09:22 <andythenorth> he did 13:09:31 <andythenorth> I made a picture of it :) 13:09:49 <andythenorth> from a cargo author's point of view, the classes *must* be treated as 'any of these' 13:09:55 <andythenorth> there is no AND 13:10:03 <frosch> andythenorth: that depends on the class 13:10:09 <andythenorth> :o 13:10:13 <andythenorth> wtf? :) 13:10:16 <andythenorth> a class is a class 13:10:28 <frosch> it might be OR for piece and bulk; but it is AND for refridgerated and covered/sheltered 13:10:36 <frosch> as well hazardious 13:10:37 <andythenorth> it can't be 13:10:47 <andythenorth> peter1138 proved to me earlier that you can't AND 13:11:00 <andythenorth> there is no way to do it on a vehicle refit 13:11:01 <andythenorth> currently 13:11:07 <planetmaker> cargo: piece + liquid + refrigerate 13:11:16 <frosch> there is a difference when you look from the vehicle pov, compared to the cargo pov 13:11:23 <andythenorth> are we describing current spec now, or as it should be in an ideal world? 13:11:24 <planetmaker> vehicle A: refit to piece and not to refrigerate --> don't carry cargo 13:11:34 <andythenorth> yes 13:11:37 <planetmaker> vehicle B: refit to piece --> allow cargo 13:11:42 <andythenorth> yes 13:11:44 <frosch> some classes are only meaningful for the INCLUDE-mask, some only for the EXCLUDE-mask, some for both 13:11:57 <planetmaker> vehicle C: refit to liquid -> allow cargo 13:12:19 <andythenorth> yes 13:12:21 <planetmaker> vehicle D: refit to refrigerate and NOT piece --> disallow? 13:12:27 <andythenorth> disallow 13:12:36 <planetmaker> thus piece makes no sense in the disallow 13:12:43 <planetmaker> nor does liquid or bulk 13:12:45 <andythenorth> that is correct 13:12:45 <planetmaker> ever 13:12:47 <andythenorth> simple isn't it :P 13:12:53 <planetmaker> but observing that: all is fine 13:13:01 <planetmaker> otherwise: vehicle grf error 13:13:29 <planetmaker> maybe one could make two further columns for the classes table: use in vehicle allow. use in vehicle disallow 13:13:34 <planetmaker> as a guide 13:14:31 <andythenorth> could be 13:14:37 <andythenorth> might help 13:14:49 <andythenorth> that's why I wondered about two properties 13:14:56 <peter1138> can you try explaining it in clear english, cos sometimes these "X A B -> Y" things don't mean anything 13:15:28 <andythenorth> peter1138: it's too easy for cargo authors to make it easy for vehicle authors to do bad things 13:16:35 <andythenorth> if I understood maths, I'd talk about this in terms of sets :P 13:16:39 <andythenorth> but I don't 13:18:34 <andythenorth> planetmaker: are there cases where bulk / piece / liquid should ever be excluded? 13:19:04 <planetmaker> I don't think so 13:19:17 <planetmaker> those three should never be excluded it seems 13:19:49 <andythenorth> shuffle the bits around, and reduce the size of the exclude property :P 13:20:50 <frosch> maybe we should extent the cargoclasses to support 1024 of them 13:20:56 <frosch> then every cargo can have its own class 13:21:03 <peter1138> heh 13:21:34 <andythenorth> namespaced :P 13:23:59 * andythenorth excludes cargos in HEQS 13:24:06 <andythenorth> possibly that is a mistake 13:24:11 <peter1138> just do what people wanted for aircraft 13:24:11 *** erik [~erik@vhe-490300.sshn.net] has left #openttd [Leaving] 13:24:16 <peter1138> allow everything 13:26:00 <andythenorth> why do I disallow stuff? 13:26:03 <andythenorth> I must be a dumbass :P 13:26:30 <andythenorth> why do mining trucks need to care about piece goods? 13:26:33 <andythenorth> just don't include them :P 13:32:23 <planetmaker> yup 13:34:09 <andythenorth> makes no bloody difference if I set exclude to 00 13:34:12 <andythenorth> hmm 13:34:19 <andythenorth> except now they refit to FICR 13:36:03 <peter1138> what is FICR? 13:36:06 *** Oneiric_Soul [~Oneiric_S@vhe-490300.sshn.net] has joined #openttd 13:36:08 <andythenorth> Fibre Crops 13:36:17 <andythenorth> classes are piece + bulk 13:36:21 <andythenorth> so the behaviour is correct 13:36:32 <andythenorth> if it was marked as 'clean' I could exclude it :P 13:36:37 <andythenorth> from mining trucks 13:36:42 <peter1138> but does piece & bulk make sense? 13:36:55 <andythenorth> I don't know, it's not my decision 13:36:59 <peter1138> :) 13:37:03 <planetmaker> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Cargos#CargoClasses_.2816.29 <-- added hint which classes to not exclude 13:37:10 <andythenorth> MB controls FICR 13:37:12 <andythenorth> not me 13:37:20 <planetmaker> peter1138: yes, it does 13:37:25 <planetmaker> wood + wood chips 13:37:43 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I have avoided discussing wood versus wdpr for three days 13:37:46 <andythenorth> now is not the time :) 13:37:50 <planetmaker> :-) 13:38:23 <peter1138> okay 13:38:34 <peter1138> but fibre crops *could* be transported in a mining truck 13:38:37 <peter1138> you just wouldn't do it 13:38:56 <andythenorth> use the label 13:38:59 <supermop_> people could also sit in the back 13:39:01 <andythenorth> the solution is already known 13:39:06 <peter1138> disallow it via the label, yeah 13:39:11 <andythenorth> I use the label to exclude grain, wheat and maize 13:39:16 <andythenorth> that's what labels are for 13:39:38 <peter1138> that just means the label needs to be in the lower 32 entries of the translation table 13:39:53 <andythenorth> which is a bit of an arse 13:40:08 <andythenorth> frosch: the cb would be able to access >32 ctt entries? 13:40:21 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if you take my proposal, a mining truck would exclude "light" cargos 13:40:33 <planetmaker> yes. But feasible. ogfx+ uses 21 cargos in explicit refits currently 13:40:39 <peter1138> andythenorth, yes 13:40:49 <peter1138> it's only the refit mask that's limited to 3 13:40:50 <peter1138> t*32 13:41:16 <andythenorth> so, where's the problem? 13:41:31 <andythenorth> point and laugh at people who use bulk, piece or liquid in exclude 13:41:47 <andythenorth> encourage the use of a cb to overcome CTT limits 13:41:55 <andythenorth> find out wtf oversized is supposed to be 13:42:04 <peter1138> bulky ;) 13:42:07 <andythenorth> set cargo authors straight about AND / OR 13:42:19 <andythenorth> my work here is done :P 13:42:43 * andythenorth thinks neo-bulk should be a core class like bulk and piece, but....hysterical raisins 13:42:58 <supermop_> needs a better name 13:43:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i disagree there 13:44:01 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: neo-bulk is about how to handle the cargo, and thus is a *specialized* property 13:44:18 <Celestar> WTS [clue] 13:44:45 <Celestar> Why is it so difficult for people to understand the causilty principle? 13:45:10 <peter1138> hm 13:45:36 <Celestar> I just spent 90minutes in a friggen meeting to explain to some fsckwit that I cannot change the CAUSE of something when I encounter its EFFECT. 13:46:02 <Celestar> no amount of mandays they give me will enable me to break relativity :P 13:46:56 <planetmaker> I agree with Eddi|zuHause here. bulk+piece+liquid are 'core' classes. neo-bulk just describes the piece-good. It's also in the transportation stuff I found classified as a sub-category to piece goods 13:47:02 <peter1138> yeah but got anywhere with tile layers? 13:47:19 <planetmaker> and pikka also has a point: any cargo should define at least one of the 6 original classes 13:47:29 <Celestar> peter1138: played around with benchmarking/performance a bit more. 13:47:42 <peter1138> 6? 13:48:07 <peter1138> there are 8 13:48:12 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 13:48:16 <peter1138> i guess you're exclusing passengers & mail 13:48:21 <peter1138> *excluding 13:48:24 *** Progman_ [~progman@p57A1CD7B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 13:48:31 <Celestar> that's unexclusable .... 13:48:35 <Celestar> er ... excusable 13:48:54 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B0C5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:49:02 *** Progman_ is now known as Progman 13:50:34 <peter1138> :p 13:51:17 <Celestar> michi_cc: does your code call GetTileSlope way more often than the original one? 13:52:09 <andythenorth> planetmaker: ok I'm convinced on neo-bulk 13:52:16 <andythenorth> it's a subclass of break-bulk (piece) 13:54:09 <Celestar> michi_cc: I'm loading the same map in trunk, and your repo, run it for 10k ticks. Your code calls GetTileSlope 153426028 times, while trunk calls it 6306034 times. 13:54:20 <Celestar> that's a factor of 25 which I don't understand 13:55:56 <peter1138> that's quite a lot 13:58:52 <Terkhen> hmmm... lots of long conversations lately 13:59:41 *** Progman_ [~progman@p57A1CD7B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 14:00:46 <Yexo> Celestar: did you check afterload? 14:05:39 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1CD7B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:05:44 *** Progman_ is now known as Progman 14:07:31 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:e10b:2972:428a:9030] has joined #openttd 14:07:34 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 14:08:10 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@ip-86-49-59-25.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 14:10:26 *** Neosublimation [~Neon@dslb-094-219-020-186.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 14:10:58 *** Eddi|zuHause2 [~johekr@p54B73A0D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 14:14:19 *** SirSquidness [~sirsquidn@zomg.dongues.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:14:25 *** SirSquidness [~sirsquidn@zomg.dongues.com] has joined #openttd 14:14:53 *** Celestar [~dax@89.204.153.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:15:28 *** supermop_ [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:16:07 *** enr1x [~kiike@62.57.225.29.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:16:38 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B73A0D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:17:03 *** Firzen [~Neon@dslb-094-219-020-186.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:17:42 <frosch> Terkhen: don't judge conversations by their length; but by their results :p 14:20:41 *** SirSquidness [~sirsquidn@zomg.dongues.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:20:45 *** SirSquidness [~sirsquidn@zomg.dongues.com] has joined #openttd 14:21:35 <andythenorth> MB proposes moving to wagon classes 14:21:37 <andythenorth> which is not a new idea 14:21:41 *** enr1x [~kiike@62.57.225.29.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #openttd 14:21:42 <andythenorth> but he has worked it through 14:22:02 <andythenorth> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=53654 14:22:44 <planetmaker> for certain definitions of 'worked through' 14:22:55 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 14:23:39 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-56-134.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 14:25:27 <planetmaker> http://www.stinnes-freight-logistics.de/gueterwagenkatalog/deutsch/gueterwagen/index.html 14:26:48 <andythenorth> so...we could keep the current scheme 14:26:57 <andythenorth> adopt the scheme from Eddi|zuHause2 14:27:01 <andythenorth> or adopt the scheme from MB 14:27:15 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause 14:27:21 <andythenorth> or keep the current scheme, but enforce a split between 'core type' and 'requires' 14:27:31 <andythenorth> or do nothing 14:27:41 <Eddi|zuHause> i spot some flaws in MBs scheme... 14:27:48 * planetmaker currently prefers 'do nothing' 14:28:00 <planetmaker> it was all clarified ;-) 14:28:12 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. the "L" category, which covers various completely different things 14:28:13 <planetmaker> it has its limitations. But every scheme has that 14:28:18 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-24-148.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:30:45 <Eddi|zuHause> PS: in MBs scheme, mail vans should be "D" 14:33:51 <Belugas> hello 14:34:09 <frosch> afternoon sir belugas :) 14:35:09 <Belugas> hi hi mister frosch 14:45:25 <andythenorth> what are the problems with 'express' as a concept? Multiple people have reservations about it 14:46:51 <frosch> it's one of those classes which are only suitable for "exclude"-classes 14:47:26 <frosch> so, if your set has two wagons carrying piece goods you can set the express-wagon to carry bulk, and the non-express wagon to carry bulk except express 14:47:36 <frosch> but which set actually has these classes? 14:47:44 <andythenorth> NARS 2 14:47:47 <frosch> another problem is the default cargo "goods" 14:48:10 <frosch> it has only the "express class", so technically you would have to use the class in a INCLUDE-mask unless you handle it explicitly 14:48:12 <andythenorth> goods is express? :o 14:48:14 <andythenorth> meh 14:48:15 <frosch> but, INCLUDE makes no sense :p 14:48:44 <frosch> andythenorth: the default goods is some cargo, which is produced at refineries, saw mills and factories 14:48:56 <andythenorth> clearly needs express :P 14:49:35 <frosch> maybe it should have been liquid + piece goods + express 14:50:04 <andythenorth> perhaps yes 14:51:08 <planetmaker> sounds like 'yes' 14:54:29 <andythenorth> frosch: this could be changed - it's additions not removals? 14:54:51 <frosch> no 14:55:15 <frosch> you can only add new defined classes 14:55:18 <frosch> not change old ones 14:55:26 <andythenorth> it's only going to cause lots of horrible exclusion problems :) 14:55:30 <andythenorth> no-one will notice 14:55:49 <planetmaker> and result in all sets not carrying goods any longer? 14:56:00 <frosch> exactly 14:56:01 <andythenorth> new-goods? 14:56:07 <andythenorth> NewGoods 14:56:15 <frosch> andythenorth: just leave it as an exception 14:56:25 <andythenorth> tidy mind problem 14:56:26 <frosch> in fact we might need to do that anyway for all existing cargos 14:56:56 <frosch> cargo classes are for unknown cargos after all 14:57:15 <frosch> so, classes of known cargos do not matter actually :p 14:57:15 <andythenorth> goods doesn't practically cause problems 14:57:18 <andythenorth> it's just odd 14:57:46 <planetmaker> frosch: ehm... don't matter? 14:58:32 <frosch> planetmaker: yes. you can always get away with not changing the classes 14:58:36 <andythenorth> I think he means, 'issues regarding goods can be handled via the label' ? 14:58:43 <planetmaker> but it might be nicer to have not a xor existing cargo label but two properties like "allow label" and "disallow label" 14:59:03 <peter1138> new properties 14:59:17 <frosch> the cb is already decided, isn't it? 14:59:17 <peter1138> instead of a refit mask, a list of cargos from the translation table ;) 14:59:29 <peter1138> cb makes more sense :) 14:59:34 <andythenorth> frosch: I'm banking on the cb 15:00:05 <frosch> currently the topic is only to reduce "oversized", "neo bulk" and "pourable" to a single class 15:00:12 <Eddi|zuHause> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=979097#p979097 <-- thoughts? 15:00:12 <andythenorth> cb relies on vehicle authors to Do The Right Thing 15:00:28 <peter1138> always will do 15:00:28 <frosch> and whether to use "clean" as class, or whether to put it in a different property similar to "freight" 15:00:43 <andythenorth> frosch: it smells wrong as a class 15:00:51 <andythenorth> it's a nice hack, but... 15:01:06 <planetmaker> well... it's a cargo property 15:01:17 <planetmaker> I still think it's useful to refit a wagon from coal to grain 15:01:50 <andythenorth> is clean an attribute or a requirement? 15:01:54 <andythenorth> it's ambiguous 15:02:00 <andythenorth> does coal need clean? 15:02:17 <andythenorth> if the previous cargo was something like mud 15:02:17 <planetmaker> coal is dirty 15:02:26 <planetmaker> mud is dirty 15:02:30 <planetmaker> dirt + dirt = still dirt 15:02:33 <andythenorth> heh 15:02:57 <planetmaker> grain is clean. fruit are clean. grain and fruit give some kind of food. But it's not clean anymore 15:03:20 <planetmaker> or tell the grain mill that processing sugar beet is about the same as oat 15:03:38 <andythenorth> it was intended to show 'needs clean vehicle' rather than 'is clean cargo' 15:03:39 <frosch> maybe "clean" is the wrong property 15:03:49 <andythenorth> foodstuffs was less ambiguous initially 15:03:52 <andythenorth> but the scope crept 15:03:53 <frosch> maybe it should be "easily cleanable" vs. "hard cleanable" 15:04:11 <frosch> you also have to clean the vehicle when refitting from oil to chemical 15:04:21 <frosch> though maybe that holds for all liquid stuff 15:04:47 <andythenorth> set a base cost for cleaning the vehicle to the next cargo? 15:04:56 <planetmaker> no 15:05:07 <planetmaker> that doesn't make sense 15:05:09 <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch> in fact we might need to do that anyway for all existing cargos <-- if the purpose was to reduce the number of exceptions, then we hereby failed 15:05:13 <frosch> or to word it differently: does "clean" mean the cargo needs a clean environment before loaded, or does it mean "it does not make it dirty for the next cargo"? 15:05:27 <planetmaker> or rather: we have that. It's refit cost 15:05:29 <andythenorth> needs a clean environment (was the intention) 15:05:54 <planetmaker> frosch: I interpreted it as "needs (somewhat) clean environment" 15:05:57 <frosch> Eddi|zuHause: the goal is to require no execptions for future cargos, not for existing ones 15:06:11 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch: i disagree. 15:06:17 <frosch> planetmaker: so both chemicals and milk need a clean environment 15:06:29 <frosch> so refitting from chemicals to milk is fine? 15:06:42 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch: someone writing a new set, should have to care the least bit about hysterical exceptions 15:06:44 <planetmaker> :-) Chemicals are dirty :-P 15:06:52 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: they just need to use labels 15:07:04 <planetmaker> Though of course that's problematical 15:07:08 <frosch> planetmaker: so refitting from oil to chemicals is fine? 15:07:14 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause or create a case for cargo scheme v2, clean sheet of paper, break all old set 15:07:31 <planetmaker> frosch: yes, that's what I implemented 15:07:37 <planetmaker> oil is just a chemical 15:07:37 <andythenorth> possibly there are enough new sets being worked on, and enough exciting 1.2 stuff to get away with a v2 15:07:52 <andythenorth> or tie this to ottd 2 15:08:01 <planetmaker> With the distinction: it needs some cleaning. But not a totally thorough 15:08:13 <planetmaker> (i.e. refit is not free, but feasible in a station) 15:08:14 <peter1138> water is a chemical 15:08:18 * andythenorth liked the idea of reimplementing the entire 'default' economy in newgrf :P 15:08:20 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there should never be an ottd2, unless it's a complete rewrite... 15:08:44 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: well you're proposing to rewrite cargo schema.. just start there and work outwards 15:09:07 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: everything that is an incremental edit, will just result in another 1.x 15:10:45 <andythenorth> water is a chemical :o 15:10:50 * andythenorth is not drinking water any more 15:10:54 <peter1138> heh 15:10:58 <andythenorth> it's full of chemicals :o 15:11:10 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: air is a chemical 15:11:12 <planetmaker> dihydregenmonoxide is the chemical which kills most people on the world actually 15:11:21 <andythenorth> try this 15:11:30 <andythenorth> 'may contain trace elements of mineral compounds' 15:11:47 <andythenorth> now write it on the side of a bottle of spring water as 'contains trace elements of mineral compounds' 15:12:00 <andythenorth> one will stop people drinking water, the other will make you a lot of money 15:12:15 <Eddi|zuHause> "berlusconi expected to resign within the next few hours" 15:12:44 <Eddi|zuHause> "mineral water: may contain traces of minerals"? 15:13:03 *** Celestar [~dax@89.204.153.18] has joined #openttd 15:13:08 <planetmaker> may contain traces of sodium chloride and fluoride 15:13:11 <Celestar> Yexo: not yet :P 15:13:40 <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: i thought we discussed that the last time? :p 15:13:44 <frosch> [16:11] * andythenorth is not drinking water any more <- you know what fishes do in water? 15:14:08 <andythenorth> I've heard about that 15:14:24 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: discussed what? 15:14:40 <Celestar> Yexo: no, the call tree sais different. 15:14:45 <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: the effect of the savegame conversion on profiling 15:15:03 <Celestar> Yexo: 150M out of the 153M calls are from GetFoundationSlope 15:15:48 <Celestar> Yexo: which itself, is called 50 times as often ... 15:16:51 <Celestar> Yexo: aha. in trunk, GetFoundationSlope is not called from TileLoop_Clear. In your code, it is. 150M times. 15:17:27 <Yexo> Celestar: my code? 15:18:29 <Celestar> erm 15:18:29 <Celestar> michi_cc's code. 15:18:29 <Celestar> :P 15:20:10 <planetmaker> must be the similarity of nick names :-P 15:20:29 <planetmaker> scnr ;_) 15:21:28 <peter1138> :D 15:21:30 <Celestar> :D 15:21:51 <Eddi|zuHause> the keys are like right next to each other :p 15:22:03 <Celestar> rofl 15:22:19 <peter1138> can clear tiles even have a foundation? o_O 15:22:27 <Celestar> can MP_CLEAR have foundations anyway? 15:22:31 <peter1138> lol 15:23:00 <b_jonas_> probably it can 15:23:13 <Eddi|zuHause> well, if you turn MP_CLEAR into "everything underneath a rail/road tile", then yes 15:23:21 <frosch> yes, if the clear tiles are sloped and have a tunnel directly under them 15:23:47 <b_jonas_> I mean, when you replace rail tracks with monorail with the rail upgrade tool, there must be an in between state when the foundations aren't changed but there's no rail on the square 15:23:53 *** b_jonas_ is now known as b_jonas 15:23:53 <Celestar> rofl peter1138 15:23:53 <Celestar> not in trunk :P 15:24:28 <b_jonas> frosch: hmm, how does that work? 15:24:53 <frosch> not in trunk :p 15:25:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: it probably wouldn't make a lot of sense to encode the foundation separately into each stacked MP_RAIL/MP_ROAD tile, only into the basic MP_CLEAR tile 15:25:51 <Eddi|zuHause> (and possibly MP_BRIDGE/MP_TUNNEL) 15:26:09 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: that's a performance hit. 15:26:40 <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: then maybe a new tile class MP_OCCUPIED is necessary? 15:26:45 <peter1138> and 150M calls of GetFoundationSlope isn't? :D 15:27:13 <Celestar> peter1138: that's what I mean :P 15:27:18 <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: but then again you scrap the possibility of having cliffs 15:27:26 <peter1138> MP_FOUNDATION... 15:27:33 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4d083d45.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 15:27:45 <andythenorth> should I add this to the cargo props page on the wiki? http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2083/setting_classes.png 15:27:54 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: what peter1138 said :P 15:28:04 <Celestar> MP_CLIFF :P 15:28:35 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: how is that clarifying anything? 15:28:52 <andythenorth> improve it then ;) 15:28:57 <andythenorth> let's assume it's GPL 15:29:01 <Celestar> but assuming that about 95% of the clear tiles do not have foundations, we either make the call to it MUCH cheaper (buffering) or skip it. 15:29:12 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what exactly is it supposed to clarify? 15:29:12 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you can even have the source, although it's a mac app :P 15:29:26 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: and if you store the slope (or all 4 points) directly in the struct, there's no need for it anyway. 15:29:39 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause when you set a class on a cargo, which set(s) it's going into 15:31:24 <andythenorth> not sure my diagram is mathematically correct :P 15:31:31 <andythenorth> it's a long time since I did venn diagrams 15:35:38 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 15:38:10 <michi_cc> Celestar: Did I tell you already that it is non-optimized code? :) 15:38:59 *** TWerkhoven2 [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 15:39:04 <Celestar> michi_cc: yeah. I'm helping :P or attempting to :D 15:39:46 <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: storing the foundation explicitly is probably the most sensible solution 15:40:07 <Celestar> it also gives the highest flexibility. 15:40:17 <Celestar> and the least hassle when attempting to retrieve it :P 15:40:37 <Celestar> michi_cc: I just really like that idea ^^ 15:45:02 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 15:50:35 <Celestar> bbl 15:50:35 *** Celestar [~dax@89.204.153.18] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:53:21 <peter1138> hm 15:56:18 *** TWerkhoven [~Turbulent@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 16:01:03 <andythenorth> hmm 16:01:27 <peter1138> hmm 16:02:16 <andythenorth> mmmh? 16:02:22 <planetmaker> hm! 16:05:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Àhm 16:05:34 <Rubidium> mmmbop? 16:05:48 <Belugas> Humming birds 16:05:52 <Eddi|zuHause> man that was DECADES ago! 16:08:10 <z-MaTRiX> heyh 16:11:24 <Elukka> http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/periapsis.png 16:11:26 <Elukka> really, really low orbit 16:11:55 <MNIM> wewt, KSP! 16:12:02 <MNIM> also, is that the pole? 16:12:07 <Elukka> that is the moon 16:12:12 <Elukka> yes, there's a moon 16:12:17 <MNIM> oh 16:12:28 <peter1138> i need to update... 16:12:34 <MNIM> yeah, that game evolves fast, last time I played it it had no moon yet 16:12:35 <Elukka> you need the experimental version 16:12:50 <Elukka> kerbin rotates and orbits the sun now, and there's the Mun 16:13:00 <MNIM> since the game runs in windows, and I haven't booted windows in ~2months... 16:13:06 * andythenorth wants the moon 16:13:09 <andythenorth> on a stick 16:13:24 <Elukka> it's awesome to do a translunar injection burn, hit 50x time compression and watch the planet get smaller 16:14:03 <Elukka> there's a trajectory map now which makes orbital transfers a lot easier 16:14:23 <peter1138> hm 16:14:35 <MNIM> sweet. 16:14:50 * peter1138 wants... 16:15:03 <peter1138> celestar & michi_cc to finish ;) 16:15:10 <MNIM> when I last played it you still had to eyeball orbit and compare it to orbital charts, lol 16:15:12 <Elukka> http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/munrokkit.png 16:15:15 <Elukka> the rocket that took me there 16:15:25 <MNIM> oh, not that big, lol 16:15:31 <Elukka> http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/tsto-2.png 16:15:48 <peter1138> hmm 16:16:02 <MNIM> yeah, this version has rcs already instead of the SAS 16:16:03 <MNIM> lol 16:16:30 <MNIM> sickness avoidance system... except that it caused more motion sickness than it prevented, lol 16:16:32 <peter1138> shame it's windows only :( 16:16:47 <z-MaTRiX> hahaha 16:16:47 <Elukka> it lifts about 3,5 full fuel tanks to low orbit 16:16:52 <Elukka> well there's a mac version :P 16:16:54 <peter1138> oh 16:16:56 <peter1138> windows & mac only 16:17:01 <peter1138> who the hell uses them? 16:17:02 <z-MaTRiX> i have just read windows will not like if you rin it off a fast ssd 16:17:31 <z-MaTRiX> there is too little io access delay 16:17:47 <MNIM> heh 16:17:50 <MNIM> silly me. 16:17:53 <peter1138> cite? 16:18:06 <MNIM> I should still get around to putting a vm on this box. 16:18:48 <Eddi|zuHause> is that like hobby-versions of pacman running too fast, because the guy programmed it to run on his 286 and didn't account for increasing CPU speeds? 16:19:12 <MNIM> ...that's kinda dumb. 16:19:13 <z-MaTRiX> Eddi|zuHause<< exactly ;) 16:19:20 <MNIM> not that Im better, but still 16:19:22 <MNIM> >.< 16:19:28 <z-MaTRiX> and guys blame it on the SSD 16:19:29 <peter1138> no cite? 16:19:31 <peter1138> :S 16:19:32 <z-MaTRiX> the SSD is bad... 16:19:34 <z-MaTRiX> ;>>> 16:19:40 <z-MaTRiX> cite ? 16:19:42 <Eddi|zuHause> even some professional games suffered from this. e.g. north&south 16:19:44 <peter1138> yes 16:19:46 <peter1138> as in 16:19:53 <peter1138> maybe you'd understand [citation needed] ? 16:19:59 <Eddi|zuHause> (man i'm seriously getting old) 16:20:01 <z-MaTRiX> well its on an online store as comment and in hungarian language 16:20:07 <peter1138> ok 16:20:12 <peter1138> ok 16:20:13 <z-MaTRiX> http://www.argep.hu/product_1622135.html 16:20:15 <z-MaTRiX> but here it is 16:20:24 <z-MaTRiX> OCZ Agility 3 SATA III 2.5" SSD 60GB (AGT3-25SAT3-60G) 16:20:25 <peter1138> so utter tripe anyway 16:20:28 <z-MaTRiX> blazing speed 16:20:39 <z-MaTRiX> and its getting cheap 16:21:02 <Eddi|zuHause> wtf am i gonna do with a 60GB disk? 16:21:10 <z-MaTRiX> system ? 16:21:47 <z-MaTRiX> its SATA III 525 MB/s read/475MB/s write ;> 16:22:11 <z-MaTRiX> faster than my sd-ram was in 2001 16:22:45 <z-MaTRiX> there is 2TB one too, but it has a price 16:23:18 <z-MaTRiX> its faster, as a PCI-Express x4 card 16:24:41 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you give a 60GB disk to someone else that's what you do with it 16:25:08 <andythenorth> wait until the baby pictures kick in, then you start thinking "what is the biggest disk they make, and why don't I have it"? 16:25:43 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [] 16:25:49 <peter1138> SDRAM in 2001? 16:25:53 <z-MaTRiX> yeah 16:25:54 <peter1138> that would've been about 1GB/s 16:25:58 <z-MaTRiX> noo 16:26:06 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i have a 2TB, a 1TB, a 500GB and a 400GB disk currently 16:26:07 <peter1138> hmm 16:26:12 <peter1138> unless it was PC-66... urgh :p 16:26:18 <z-MaTRiX> maybe DDR ram... 16:26:38 <peter1138> that would've been 1.6GB/s 16:26:55 <peter1138> assuming crappy original 16:27:00 <z-MaTRiX> ok, low end SD-ram is about 290MB/s 16:27:04 <z-MaTRiX> in a memtest 16:27:30 <peter1138> ... 16:27:34 <peter1138> that's about the speed of EDO 16:28:46 <z-MaTRiX> ok 16:28:54 <z-MaTRiX> i didnt have EDO ram 16:28:56 <z-MaTRiX> :) 16:29:05 <z-MaTRiX> but i do have some computers with SD-ram 16:29:56 *** rhaeder1 [~quix0r@dslb-094-221-149-164.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:31:54 <z-MaTRiX> single channel DDR1 400MHz goes at ~1.6GB/s with memtest 16:32:30 *** rhaeder [~quix0r@dslb-094-221-149-164.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 16:35:40 <z-MaTRiX> but i dont believe you can get >600MB/s out of an SD-ram 16:37:34 <peter1138> theoretical speed, yeah 16:44:14 <Belugas> stomac growls. freaking time change :S 16:44:51 <Rubidium> Belugas: oh, I'm not over it myself yet either :( 16:45:14 <Rubidium> it's *so* annoying to wake up long before your alarm is set to go off 16:45:39 <peter1138> more time for openttd deving :D 16:46:20 <Belugas> indeed, Rubidium... indeed 16:47:16 <Belugas> i worked out late on the basement yesterday ( secretly building my speaker cabinet ;) ) so i slept late. my son jumped on the bed at 4:30. like... GET OUT!!!! 16:50:58 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:54:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: but time change was over a week ago :p 16:54:50 <Rubidium> yeah... sad, ain't it? 16:55:17 *** Oneiric_Soul [~Oneiric_S@vhe-490300.sshn.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:55:37 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e0a9627.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 17:01:01 <Eddi|zuHause> but i must admit, my sleeping pattern also "shifted" since then 17:02:11 <frosch> yup, i get hardly out of bed before 10 am :p 17:07:25 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 17:07:31 <andythenorth> frosch: 10am :P 17:07:42 <andythenorth> clear indicator of a no-child-at-home status 17:07:59 <andythenorth> I bet Belugas has been awake at every 10am for several years 17:08:16 <andythenorth> probably maybe 1200 x10am for Beluga consecutively 17:08:17 <andythenorth> ? 17:10:26 *** TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has joined #openttd 17:10:32 <TGYoshi> hi :3 17:10:50 <planetmaker> hi 17:12:09 <TGYoshi> just decided to try out openttd again :p 17:12:24 <TGYoshi> LetÂŽs figure out how to make opengfx work 17:12:44 <planetmaker> use the installer.. 17:13:11 <planetmaker> if it works already: use online content download and select it in the game options 17:13:21 <TGYoshi> Oh, found it :P 17:13:28 <TGYoshi> putting in data/ folder 17:13:48 <TGYoshi> IÂŽm using the ÂŽnightlyÂŽ version 17:15:02 <TGYoshi> Except for openmsx :3 17:15:33 <planetmaker> get that via ingame content download 17:16:35 <TGYoshi> ah :D 17:16:36 <TGYoshi> ty :P 17:17:43 <TGYoshi> You probably know some other must-have new-gfx things ;p 17:17:56 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-095-033-153-132.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 17:19:06 <Belugas> i cannot remember last time i've been able to sleep past 7:00h am... my wife is the kind "get up, we have millions of thngs to do" Even before my kid... nf we switched time only this weekend, in order to match our big neighborous... 17:19:09 <planetmaker> neither is new-gfx. Both are base sets and kinda essentials 17:21:06 <TGYoshi> sure, I mean those add-on things. I remember some quite huge extension to industries etc. 17:22:07 <planetmaker> it's hard to recommend anything. Tastes vary wildly. 17:22:20 <planetmaker> Again I'd like to direct you to the online content ;-) 17:22:54 <planetmaker> Test out a few, best individually and use those which you like - in a new game :-) 17:23:17 <planetmaker> just when using an industry set, make sure you use vehicle sets, which usually support also newly introduced cargos 17:24:19 <TGYoshi> :p 17:24:34 <TGYoshi> IÂŽll first try the original game 17:25:08 <TGYoshi> Anyway, where is the inverse mouse option? XD 17:25:30 <planetmaker> somewhere in the adv. settings 17:25:39 <TGYoshi> Expectable. Somewhere 17:26:05 <planetmaker> surely not in the 'economy' branch ;-) 17:27:29 <TGYoshi> Maybe stations 17:28:45 <TGYoshi> Ah found it 17:28:49 <TGYoshi> ÂŽReverse scroll direction 17:29:14 <TGYoshi> quite weird how my mouse sticks tho :P 17:31:38 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:33:43 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 17:35:06 *** Elu [Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 17:36:37 *** andythenorth [~Andy@78-86-194-127.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 17:39:53 *** hanf [~Klaus@host-2-101-49-241.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 17:40:29 *** andythenorth [~Andy@78-86-194-127.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 17:41:28 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-095-033-153-132.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 17:41:38 *** Elukka [Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:45:31 * andythenorth wonders how well the wagon code system would apply to HEQS 17:46:40 <andythenorth> are mining trucks "ordinary open high- and low-sided wagons" (class E) 17:46:58 <andythenorth> or "special wagons: silo wagons, low-loaders" (class U) 17:47:22 <andythenorth> or "special open high-sided wagons" (class F) 17:47:36 *** LordAro [~lordaro@host86-149-28-212.range86-149.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 17:47:43 <frosch> call the manufacturer and ask 17:47:58 <andythenorth> I have him on the line now 17:48:00 <LordAro> evenings 17:48:07 <andythenorth> he's wondering how the class codes apply 17:48:25 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 17:48:28 <andythenorth> my shipping magnate wants to know too 17:49:05 <andythenorth> probably ships might be safely described by just attaching all classes 17:49:11 <andythenorth> that's fien 17:49:13 <andythenorth> fine /s 17:49:50 <andythenorth> what about planes? 17:50:00 <Prof_Frink> Carpentry tools. 17:50:05 <andythenorth> probably class G "ordinary covered wagons, box cars, vans" 17:50:26 <andythenorth> yes: box cars http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairchild_C-119_Flying_Boxcar 17:53:57 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@ip-86-49-59-25.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:59:09 <__ln___> http://www.rail.co/2011/11/07/japan-looks-at-high-speed-freight-services/ 18:08:05 <Elu> "It is necessary to introduce a high speed freight service on the route because the wind turbulence generated by a passing Shinkansen has the ability to derail a freight train which can be avoided if the freight train travels at a similar speed to the Shinkansen." 18:08:07 <Elu> really? 18:08:10 *** Elu is now known as Elukka 18:13:28 *** TheMask96 [~martijn@sloth.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:17:25 <appe> that's neat. 18:18:11 <appe> you people know this more then me, but japan really seems to be the government interested in trains. and good trains, too. 18:18:48 *** TheMask96 [~martijn@pride.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 18:20:45 <__ln___> *than 18:20:48 <andythenorth> bbl 18:20:49 *** andythenorth [~Andy@78-86-194-127.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 18:22:07 *** pjpe [ae5b514a@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 18:39:13 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-11-29.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 18:42:03 *** hanf [~Klaus@host-2-101-49-241.as13285.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:44:34 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r23128 /trunk/src/lang/vietnamese.txt: 18:44:34 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 18:44:34 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: vietnamese - 14 changes by nglekhoi 18:44:58 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-56-134.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:47:09 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 18:53:16 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:06:15 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host48-239-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 19:07:05 <Wolf01> hello 19:10:18 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-127-107.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 19:10:31 <appe> evening. 19:11:48 *** JVassie [~James@2.27.86.104] has joined #openttd 19:15:43 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-11-29.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:16:00 <andythenorth> planetmaker frosch I'm going to summarise some cargo class thoughts for a forum post... 19:16:48 <andythenorth> 1. there could be alternatives (eddi, MB), but the class system + cb is one option 19:17:06 <andythenorth> 2. cargo authors need to treat cargo classes as OR 19:17:40 <andythenorth> 3. cargo authors should not be concerned about what vehicles carry what, only what the intrinsic properties of the cargo are 19:20:02 <andythenorth> 4. setting lots of classes is probably unwise (I can't prove this, but I think it will hold) 19:21:05 <andythenorth> [small interruption, the toddler just weed on the floor] 19:21:36 <planetmaker> also shit happens ;-) 19:22:58 <andythenorth> 5. freight cargos should set at least one of: bulk, piece, liquid; this ensures widespread cargo support 19:24:13 <andythenorth> 6. don't use real-life transport examples as a guide to the classes, use the intrinsic properties. Milk can travel in churns, oil can travel in barrels, water can travel in bottles, but all are properly liquid not piece goods. If a vehicle set author wants to allow liquid transport by box van (liquid in containers), it's up to them 19:25:23 <andythenorth> 7. vehicle set authors should include at least one of: bulk, piece, liquid; exceptions for special vehicles or label-based support only 19:25:57 <planetmaker> I don't think a guide is needed there 19:25:58 <andythenorth> 8. vehicle set authors should not exclude: bulk, piece, liquid; this is likely to lead to poor support for future cargos 19:26:00 <planetmaker> (for 7) 19:26:51 <andythenorth> 9. labels and explicit support are the solution to awkward cargos (highly specific cases) 19:26:51 *** utn [~utn@95.154.15.84] has joined #openttd 19:27:12 <utn> can't you play against pc users when you got a mac? 19:28:35 <andythenorth> 10. vehicle set authors should only exclude the known classes (i.e only set the known class bits). Setting a general exclude may damage the abstraction in future 19:29:02 <Rubidium> utn: there's no such limitation 19:29:30 <andythenorth> I could add some general stuff, like 'final decision on transportation rests with vehicle author' 19:29:33 <utn> okay i will try reinstall it then, thx 19:29:43 *** utn [~utn@95.154.15.84] has quit [] 19:29:44 <Rubidium> utn: except that you need to use the same version of OpenTTD, e.g all should use 1.1.3 (regardless of whether it's a Mac OS X, Windows or Linux binary) 19:29:56 <andythenorth> and 'industry authors shouldn't waste time trying to force certain refits on older vehicle sets by dicking around with classes improperly' 19:31:07 <andythenorth> and "it may be appealing to you (seem correct) to exclude refrigerated cargo from *every* non-refrigerated wagon, but that's liable to blow up in someone's face" etc 19:32:50 <appe> i think im getting the hang on track effectivity 19:33:10 <appe> adding a longer turn made my year round profit 20% higher 19:33:24 <appe> i do not want to know how people do this in real life. 19:34:27 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23129 /trunk/src/ (55 files in 4 dirs): -Add: [NewGRF] Property for the rail type name. 19:36:23 <andythenorth> planetmaker: if you agree with above, I'd like to review FIRS cargos more carefully + methodically :) 19:36:54 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-24-125-108.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 19:39:40 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 19:44:33 <planetmaker> as said, I'd skip 7 19:50:12 <andythenorth> I can skip 7 19:50:25 <andythenorth> you think it's not true, or so obvious not worth stating? 19:51:28 <frosch> i still do not know whether oversized and neo-bulk is the same :p 19:51:40 <planetmaker> it works for me well without including piece, bulk, liquid for some wagons 19:52:03 <planetmaker> frosch: I'm tempted to make it the same 19:52:16 <planetmaker> I'm not aware of any existing vehicle set which uses oversized 19:52:22 <planetmaker> nor industry set actually 19:52:39 <frosch> no idea whether george actually set them 19:52:45 <frosch> or whether mb just added them to wiki :p 19:53:17 <planetmaker> it was added in 2009 19:54:01 <frosch> we might just check the current machinery vector 19:54:08 <frosch> (i think that is the one with vehicles) 19:54:39 <frosch> anyway, what about turning the "clean" into a separate property, which is passed to the refitcost callback? 19:54:54 <frosch> or does anyone want to exclude clean cargos from his vehicles? 19:55:29 <peter1138> orudge 19:55:48 <peter1138> can you make the forum autoreplace mb's broken apostrophes? :p 19:56:07 <frosch> broken apo'strophe's ? 19:56:53 <peter1138> he uses U+00B4 Acute Accent 19:57:41 <peter1138> always has done o_O 19:57:43 <frosch> ah, ÂŽ instead of ' 19:58:19 <peter1138> aye 19:58:28 <frosch> well, they were the same back in dos times 19:59:54 <peter1138> not... really 20:00:04 <peter1138> B4 would've been a line drawing symbol 20:00:33 <frosch> well, but the symbols which would appear when you press the keys 20:00:33 <peter1138> also, hard to type 20:00:49 <frosch> ÂŽ is easier to type than ' on german keyboard 20:00:53 <frosch> the latter requires shift 20:00:58 <peter1138> o_O 20:01:10 <planetmaker> ehm... frosch, not really. Yes, but... 20:01:16 <frosch> except if you use dead-keys, then you need to press ÂŽ twice, resp use space 20:01:32 <frosch> but who uses dead keys? if you can have compose? 20:01:47 * planetmaker didn't consider shift more difficult ;-) 20:03:18 <andythenorth> frosch: wrt clean and oversized - I want to get a general approach written down as per 1-10 above (maybe excluding 7)... 20:03:33 <andythenorth> now that you've raised the problems with express, that kind of bothers me 20:03:39 <peter1138> it really messes up the text flow :( 20:03:43 <peter1138> orudge, do it! 20:03:59 <planetmaker> frosch: I'm still not convinced that clean would be a property... 20:04:04 <andythenorth> me neither 20:04:34 <andythenorth> why is express a class *except* for historical reasons? 20:04:40 <andythenorth> express is a bit like clean 20:04:47 * andythenorth had some more thoughts around this 20:05:13 <andythenorth> classes are for *refitting* 20:05:33 <andythenorth> some of these classes might be more properly hints to *refit cost* and *cargo decay* callbacks 20:05:51 <andythenorth> 'express' should really mean 'enhanced decay' 20:05:58 <andythenorth> refrigerated similar 20:06:14 <andythenorth> clean absolutely 20:06:24 <andythenorth> is for refit cost only 20:07:54 <frosch> maybe "express" is the same as "clean" :p 20:08:00 <andythenorth> maybe 20:08:09 <planetmaker> hm. maybe 20:08:37 <frosch> tourists are passenger+express btw 20:08:46 <planetmaker> yes, they are 20:08:49 <andythenorth> tourists trouble me 20:08:54 <planetmaker> they're cleaner than passengers 20:09:06 <planetmaker> especially when the tourists are football fans 20:09:26 <peter1138> passenger or express? 20:09:34 <andythenorth> so tourists can travel by NARS 2 express box van? 20:09:36 <andythenorth> how quaint 20:09:36 <peter1138> so you can shovel them into express vans...? 20:09:40 <peter1138> hurr 20:09:49 <andythenorth> and planes without windows 20:09:55 <peter1138> so you need to exclude passengers... :p 20:10:17 <andythenorth> the madness recurs :P 20:10:29 <andythenorth> peter1138: no 20:10:36 <andythenorth> you exclude 'tourists' label 20:10:40 <andythenorth> because it's known 20:10:42 <andythenorth> :P 20:11:14 <peter1138> i think excluding the passenger class is more useful in that case 20:11:27 <andythenorth> or you exclude pax, because your vehicle definitely can't carry anything that might be PAX 20:11:42 <andythenorth> and then the unintended consequences that might occur are the fault of the cargo set 20:11:48 <andythenorth> for setting a silly class 20:12:00 <orudge> peter1138: heh, it does bug me, but the phpBB autoreplace isn't quite intelligent enough to be able to replace characters inside words 20:12:05 <orudge> at least, I don't think it is 20:12:07 <peter1138> :( 20:12:10 <orudge> maybe you can do regexps these days 20:12:12 <orudge> I can't remember 20:12:13 <peter1138> there's probably a module for it :) 20:12:19 <andythenorth> why set express? Any sane vehicle set author will just exclude tourists from express vehicles 20:12:24 <orudge> (hence people saying things like "shitty" and it appearing as "s***" with the word filter) 20:12:35 <orudge> (as oppossed to "s***ty") 20:12:47 <peter1138> hm 20:12:57 <peter1138> waht 20:13:01 <peter1138> was it waht? 20:13:18 <andythenorth> wiht? 20:13:26 <peter1138> with!!! 20:13:29 <peter1138> hm 20:13:31 <peter1138> can't remember 20:14:02 <orudge> whit 20:14:21 <peter1138> :) 20:16:19 <andythenorth> frosch: unless someone pops up and proves different, I would be happy for oversized/overweight to be merged with neo-bulk, although I don't like the 'oversized/overweight' name, it's inadequate 20:16:38 <peter1138> # funny how love is 20:16:48 <peter1138> "large" 20:16:51 <frosch> yes, i would rename it to "oversized/overweight/neo-bulk" 20:17:02 <frosch> anything transported in open wagons or flatbeds 20:17:09 <andythenorth> how about 'inconvenient' :P 20:17:24 <andythenorth> to go alongside express and clean as silly classes 20:17:30 <frosch> non-pouring bulk? :p 20:17:54 <andythenorth> well I think we should merge in hazardous as well 20:18:03 <andythenorth> uranium is inconvenient :P 20:19:27 <andythenorth> hazardous is also a 'hint' property 20:19:53 <andythenorth> it could be used for excludes, but it's not that likely 20:20:30 <andythenorth> if you're doing a vehicle set at TTD scale, you shouldn't be adding 'tanker - non-hazardous', and 'tanker-hazardous' 20:20:33 <andythenorth> it's kind of pointless 20:20:54 <andythenorth> but you might use hazardous to lower the vehicle speed limit 20:21:11 <andythenorth> perhaps exclude from planes is valid for hazardous? 20:21:44 <andythenorth> you might use hazard to enforce using a caboose 20:24:14 <andythenorth> frosch: 'like bulk but doesn't pour' 20:24:15 <andythenorth> snappy 20:24:25 <MNIM> Hmmmh 20:25:00 <MNIM> in the future you could have town object to transporting hazardous through their town area? 20:25:06 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-77-77.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 20:25:38 <MNIM> oh, and in case of a collision, bad things happen and surrounding tiles are rendered useless for some time? 20:28:56 <frosch> for some time? no. they get replace with MP_VOID for the rest of the game 20:29:42 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-127-107.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:31:02 <andythenorth> these are good ideas :P 20:31:05 <andythenorth> NewDisasters 20:31:26 <frosch> i guess you cannot even build tunnels to pass MP_VOID :p 20:31:30 <andythenorth> it would be fun - and also a huge griefing opportunity 20:33:32 <frosch> oh, but aircraft can pass it, so even if a town is enclosed by MP_VOID, you can still reach it 20:34:48 <andythenorth> frosch: where was your list of suggested changes to default cargos? 20:36:29 <frosch> i linked it in the thread 20:36:32 <frosch> it is on ottd wiki 20:36:43 <andythenorth> sorry 20:36:54 <andythenorth> I was looking in the thread but missed it :| 20:37:00 <frosch> but since noone commented on it, i assume noone took a look at it :p 20:37:09 <planetmaker> :-) 20:37:16 <andythenorth> I looked 20:37:27 <andythenorth> I just don't know what to do about it yet :) 20:37:37 <frosch> bubbles is the only cargo which is oversized but not neo-bulk 20:39:39 <andythenorth> I'm not convinced even that things like steel are either of those classes 20:39:52 <andythenorth> it could be, but is it helpful? 20:45:23 <planetmaker> why are bubbles not neo-bulk? 20:45:40 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd 20:46:05 <planetmaker> we should declare steel as liquid and hazardous ;-) 20:47:08 <frosch> steel slabs look quite neo-bulk/overweight to me 20:47:37 <frosch> http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Slabs_stack.jpg&filetimestamp=20100220164144 <- does not pour 20:47:59 <MNIM> it does when it belts :P 20:48:04 <MNIM> *melts 20:48:16 <MNIM> hah, that'd be a laugh, transporting molten metal 20:48:28 <Zuu> Possible in a mars scenario 20:48:40 <MNIM> true point 20:48:41 <Zuu> Or a hell climate? 20:48:58 <Zuu> Sounds like Afterlife :-) 20:49:06 <Zuu> If you ever played that game. 20:49:13 <frosch> MNIM: steel is transported via train in liquid state 20:49:23 <frosch> though only a few kilometers 20:49:23 <MNIM> Zuu: don't think so. 20:50:05 <Zuu> MNIM: Its a sim/tycoon-ish game where you build the heven + hell. 20:52:44 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 20:53:03 <andythenorth> steel is definitely bad if it falls on you 20:53:11 <andythenorth> and I *am* planning to add torpedo cars to HEQS 20:53:28 <andythenorth> torpedo = molten metal, not weapon 20:55:14 <frosch> would make for an interesting income function 20:55:22 <frosch> if the trip take to long you have to buy a new wagon 20:55:58 <MNIM> lol 20:56:37 <andythenorth> frosch set capacity to 0 if last trip took too long? 20:57:07 <frosch> yeah :) 20:59:37 *** LordAro [~lordaro@host86-149-28-212.range86-149.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: "Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so."] 20:59:53 <andythenorth> frosch: wrt oversized / neo-bulk, let's plan to merge them in 7 days(?) if nobody objects? 21:00:17 <andythenorth> and lets argue away the 'oversized / overweight' aspect as not-very-important 21:00:36 <Zuu> Recently, I was thinking about a NewGRF which lowers the train speeds and increase loading time in the winter. :-) 21:01:10 <andythenorth> Zuu: you'd need hemisphere parameter 21:01:12 <andythenorth> ;) 21:01:32 *** pjpe [ae5b514a@ircip3.mibbit.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:02:44 <andythenorth> he 21:02:54 <andythenorth> http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=380234&nseq=0 21:02:55 <Zuu> Or put it in a national train set? Though it would be interesting if you could run an australian trainset along with eg. UKRS both with this "feature" :-) 21:03:21 <Zuu> Those 500 ton wagons are nice :-) 21:03:33 <Zuu> Except when they derail 21:04:21 *** pjpe [ae5b514a@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 21:04:41 <Zuu> One had a derail here in Sweden which I took quite some time to move away. :-) 21:05:13 <MNIM> I can imagine 21:10:12 *** TWerkhoven[l] [~turbulent@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 21:10:45 <Rubidium> just use the z-level and snow line? 21:11:01 <Rubidium> or just the snow line in general 21:16:31 <andythenorth> can a train check snow line? 21:16:46 <frosch> somewhat 21:17:07 <frosch> not officially with more heightlevels 21:18:01 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-095-033-153-132.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 21:18:14 <frosch> but you can compare variable 9E with var 20 to draw snow on your ship :p 21:18:18 <andythenorth> ooh 21:18:22 <andythenorth> ice on ships is bad 21:18:24 <andythenorth> they sink 21:18:29 <andythenorth> NewDisasters 21:18:58 <andythenorth> I can do a sinking ship without NewDisasters 21:20:23 *** Hyronymus [~chatzilla@s53757898.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd 21:21:32 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:34:29 *** DDR_ [~chatzilla@142.179.78.88] has joined #openttd 21:35:11 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> or "special open high-sided wagons" (class F) <-- mining trucks are most likely that. F are self-discharging hopper wagons. 21:35:32 <andythenorth> mining trucks definitely self-discharge 21:41:15 <Rubidium> so do box cars with gasses ;) 21:41:24 <andythenorth> babies self-discharge 21:41:38 <planetmaker> they're neo-bulk, though 21:41:42 <andythenorth> indeed 21:42:39 * andythenorth ponders writing actual code to test if 'clean' is a stupid idea 21:45:13 <Rubidium> shouldn't liquid containers always be cleaned? 21:45:29 <andythenorth> probably 21:48:15 <planetmaker> there's a different between clean and clean when you refit between oil and diesel and milk 21:48:43 *** Elukka [Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 21:48:56 <planetmaker> same as there's a difference between clean hands before eating and before doing a liver transplant 21:49:25 <andythenorth> planetmaker: are you for or against? :) 21:49:30 <andythenorth> clean 21:50:00 <Rubidium> planetmaker: imo diesel and oil are the same in terms of cargo in the TTD realm 21:50:17 <planetmaker> I'm unsure. I like the idea, but of course it doesn't describe in any way a provision necessary 21:50:23 <planetmaker> as such it's a bit odd class 21:50:31 <andythenorth> I think it's odd 21:50:35 <planetmaker> Rubidium: oil and fuel oil then ;-) 21:50:39 <andythenorth> so is the livery refit class :P 21:50:46 <planetmaker> 15? 21:51:06 <andythenorth> yes 21:51:21 <andythenorth> not a cargo 21:51:44 <andythenorth> and 'regearing' is not pikka's finest moment 21:51:50 <Rubidium> planetmaker: that, maybe, goes one way (fuel oil -> oil). The other way around needs cleaning due to the crap in oil 21:53:01 <andythenorth> hmm 21:53:06 <planetmaker> Rubidium: yes. But the amount of cleaning is WAY different to when you would want to put in milk after a delivery of crude oil 21:53:15 <planetmaker> (i.e. in reallife it wouldn't be allowed) 21:53:33 <andythenorth> all liquids would demand cleaning 21:53:45 <andythenorth> maybe there's a way to solve it by convention, not class 21:53:46 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@vpn91.ext.espci.fr] has joined #openttd 21:53:57 <andythenorth> again, it might have to be left to the vehicle set author 21:54:00 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> hazardous is also a 'hint' property <-- "hazardous" should be the opposite of "clean", i.e. add it to "oil", "fuel" and "chemicals" 21:54:05 <andythenorth> :) 21:54:07 <andythenorth> meanwhile 21:54:29 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: andythenorth, but then it should go into the same property as clean then 21:54:34 <planetmaker> or as express possibly 21:54:36 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: fluid oxygen is hazardous as well, but might not need as much cleaning 21:54:52 <andythenorth> isn't it boring when a vehicle set goes something like A, B (bigger, faster than A), C (bigger, faster than B), D (bigger, faster than C) 21:54:54 <andythenorth> ? 21:55:00 <planetmaker> fluid oxygen... much "nicer" than oil ;-) 21:55:38 <andythenorth> is it easier just to do the inverse of everything oberhumer suggests? 21:55:43 <andythenorth> easier / better /s 21:56:35 <planetmaker> eh? 21:57:02 <andythenorth> I wondered if it was a general rule in life: !(oberhumer suggestions) 21:57:12 <andythenorth> in this case, it's about trams 21:57:48 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> and I *am* planning to add torpedo cars to HEQS <-- what UIC class are those? U? Z? 21:59:05 <andythenorth> dunno 21:59:21 <andythenorth> but they will refit to anything 'clean' 21:59:38 <andythenorth> cargo might get vapourised, but won't get dirty 22:02:01 * andythenorth ponders some actual FIRS cargo classes 22:02:39 <andythenorth> planetmaker: no rush, but do you want to see if you can see any FIRS classes that look wrong - in light of the AND/OR thinking etc. 22:02:59 <andythenorth> and also the 'liquids can go in containers but that doesn't make them piece goods' type thinking 22:03:09 <Wolf01> 'night 22:03:12 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host48-239-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 22:03:35 <planetmaker> I shall have a look 22:07:06 <peter1138> anyone heard of maverick sabre? 22:07:48 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing] 22:08:26 <andythenorth> planetmaker: BEER is probably wrong 22:08:31 <andythenorth> sets piece goods 22:09:05 <planetmaker> well. maybe. Though I've never seen a beer tanker ;-) 22:09:11 <planetmaker> would be good for 1st May though 22:09:20 <Eddi|zuHause> BEER should very well be piece goods 22:09:50 * andythenorth thinks this would be a good test 22:10:01 <andythenorth> what is specifically piece goods about beer? 22:10:09 <andythenorth> when I drink it, it's liquid... 22:10:10 <andythenorth> :) 22:10:27 <Eddi|zuHause> beer is delivered in crates 22:10:34 <planetmaker> or barrels 22:10:36 <andythenorth> delivered yes 22:10:41 <Eddi|zuHause> or occasionally barrels 22:10:46 <andythenorth> that conflates cargo with container 22:10:50 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: this is ONLY about the delivery 22:10:57 <andythenorth> no no ;) 22:11:09 <andythenorth> this is only about the properties of the cargo 22:11:12 <frosch> night 22:11:17 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: everything other the (common) delivery method is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT 22:11:17 *** frosch [~frosch@frnk-4d008696.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:11:18 <andythenorth> cargo set author doesn't control vehicles 22:11:58 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, the property of the cargo is that it is commonly packaged in bottles/barrels 22:12:04 <andythenorth> no :) 22:12:09 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. 22:12:18 <andythenorth> well yes 22:12:22 <andythenorth> I don't mean you're wrong 22:12:23 <Eddi|zuHause> see :) 22:12:28 <andythenorth> I just mean it's not helpful 22:12:40 <Eddi|zuHause> it is 22:12:46 <andythenorth> basing cargo classes on examples of packaging or real world vehicles isn't helpful 22:12:57 <Eddi|zuHause> it must be 22:12:59 <andythenorth> why 22:13:07 <andythenorth> every single cargo is piece goods 22:13:22 <andythenorth> I can create a case for any cargo you name that it is piece goods 22:14:17 <Eddi|zuHause> not "a case", but "a common case" 22:14:36 <andythenorth> based on... 22:14:36 <Eddi|zuHause> (other than "fits into an ISO container") 22:14:41 <andythenorth> reality? 22:14:43 *** supermop_ [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 22:14:47 <andythenorth> google image search? 22:15:05 <andythenorth> planetmaker: just for you: http://www.landerholm.us/Prague/photos/pilsnerTruck.jpg 22:15:27 <planetmaker> :-) 22:15:50 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: do a nitpick reply in the thread if you like 22:15:58 <andythenorth> I'll find the link 22:16:09 <andythenorth> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=53654&start=20 22:16:35 <andythenorth> having a "yes!" "no!" argument here is not a good use of your time or mine 22:16:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i have that one open already :) 22:17:03 <andythenorth> oh 22:17:07 <andythenorth> also we have a new contribution 22:17:17 <andythenorth> and proof of the AND problem 22:17:32 <Eddi|zuHause> not understanding that fully, but it roughly seems to coincide with my proposal 22:18:10 <andythenorth> the upside of my solution is that it keeps the existing class structure entirely 22:18:21 <andythenorth> the downside is that nobody seems to agree wtf that is 22:18:36 <andythenorth> the upside of your solution is that it makes sense 22:18:46 <andythenorth> the downside is it's entirely new 22:19:15 <Eddi|zuHause> deprecate the existing system with GRFv8? 22:19:23 <Eddi|zuHause> replace it with a new one? 22:19:54 <andythenorth> maybe 22:20:03 <andythenorth> I'm way out of my depth about how to do that 22:21:53 <andythenorth> I'm trying to figure out the newest suggestion 22:22:11 <andythenorth> doesn't cement travel in his grain car? 22:22:31 <andythenorth> and coal travels in his fish wagon 22:22:59 <peter1138> # somehow i have to make this final breakthrough... now 22:23:58 <andythenorth> or he has to have a wagon for 'covered AND bulk AND refrigerated' 22:24:15 <andythenorth> and another wagon for 'bulk AND food AND covered' 22:24:24 <andythenorth> which is going to make ships interesting at minimum :P 22:24:26 <andythenorth> and planes 22:24:54 <andythenorth> if it has to be exact-match AND, then I'm going to need to invent a lot stupid ship names for FISH 22:25:22 <supermop_> thought the idea behind fish was all ships able to carry any cargo 22:25:30 <andythenorth> and the buy menu length will be (number ship models) * (number of class combinations) 22:25:49 <andythenorth> supermop_: that wouldn't be possible with exact-match AND on cargo classes 22:26:01 <andythenorth> you could only refit if all the classes matched perfectly 22:26:12 <andythenorth> so you'd need a vehicle type for every combination of cargo classes in the game 22:26:30 <andythenorth> @calc !11 22:26:31 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1) 22:26:37 <andythenorth> @calc 11! 22:26:37 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1) 22:26:58 <planetmaker> @calc factorial(11) 22:26:58 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Error: 'factorial' is not a defined function. 22:27:07 <planetmaker> @calc factor(11) 22:27:07 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Error: 'factor' is not a defined function. 22:27:09 <andythenorth> is it factorial, or nCr ? 22:27:43 <supermop_> none of you own a calculator anymore? 22:27:45 <andythenorth> if factorial, 39916800 vehicles are needed apparently 22:27:52 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 1/sqrt(5)*(((1+sqrt(5))/2)**11-((1-sqrt(5))/2)**11) 22:27:52 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 89 22:28:11 <Eddi|zuHause> that can't be right 22:28:12 <planetmaker> supermop_: but in the other room ;-) 22:28:26 * andythenorth has an Apple calculator :P 22:28:47 <andythenorth> stupid thing also has the internet and a hard drive 22:28:54 <andythenorth> what's the point in those? 22:29:13 <supermop_> i want one of the rereleased hp 15Cs 22:29:24 <andythenorth> anyway, 39916800 seems to be a lot of vehicles 22:29:32 *** TWerkhoven[l] [~turbulent@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:29:51 <valhallasw> +1 supermop_ 22:30:05 * valhallasw still works on an HP 41CV 22:31:16 <andythenorth> maybe with the callback it would be ok actually 22:31:25 <andythenorth> so if it must be AND strict-matched 22:31:33 <andythenorth> I need how many varact checks? 22:32:07 <andythenorth> < 39916800 22:32:35 <andythenorth> but I'm writing the cb, so I can ignore all the AND stuff anyway 22:32:39 <andythenorth> and just do what I like 22:33:03 <andythenorth> I can return 'allow' if it's 1910 and disallow if the snowline is > 7 22:33:16 *** TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has quit [Quit: Poof] 22:33:53 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: do you propose moving the 'extra' classes to a new prop? 22:34:17 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: implementation detail... 22:34:24 <andythenorth> well yes... 22:35:12 <andythenorth> but we could achieve your proposal by convention (keep existing system, argue with people who do it wrong), or by new code 22:35:17 <andythenorth> also 22:35:26 *** Hyronymus [~chatzilla@s53757898.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:35:34 <andythenorth> milk is clearly piece goods if I accept your beer argument 22:37:18 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the difference, like frosch123 pointed out, is that you transport milk from the farm to the dairy, while you transport beer from the brewery to the customers 22:37:27 <andythenorth> true 22:37:36 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if you transported milk from the dairy to the customers, then the same as beer would apply 22:37:56 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but you transport food from the dairy to the customer, which already is piece goods 22:38:05 <andythenorth> you can file it under edge case, but I think you make more problems with the beer argument than you solve :P 22:38:18 <andythenorth> change it to *beer bottles* and you win 22:38:43 <andythenorth> hmm 22:38:51 <andythenorth> how is beer dimensioned in FIRS? 22:39:07 <supermop_> bottles and kegs could arguable be different cargoes anyway 22:39:09 <Eddi|zuHause> don't know 22:39:11 *** Neosublimation [~Neon@dslb-094-219-020-186.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.] 22:39:16 <andythenorth> litres 22:39:27 <andythenorth> litres of alcohol 22:39:29 <supermop_> litre bottles? 22:39:38 <andythenorth> dimension it in crates and I'd accept your case 22:39:58 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: 1 crate == 12 litres :) 22:40:05 <supermop_> how about cases 22:40:20 <supermop_> a hand truck would hold one keg or 6 cases 22:40:39 <supermop_> soo that doesnt really help 22:41:19 <Terkhen> good night 22:41:19 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think you make this more of a problem than it is 22:41:55 <andythenorth> beer? 22:42:04 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there really is no problem wrt newgrf development if a cargo is both "piece goods" and "liquid", as long as people stick to the "no exclude" rule 22:42:35 <supermop_> andy you've inspired me to grab a brooklyn winter ale from the fridge 22:42:40 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: maybe 22:42:55 <andythenorth> it's unclear though 22:43:21 <andythenorth> now you (as cargo set author) want to control how cargo is transported in detail? 22:43:21 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@i59F6ACB6.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 22:44:16 <andythenorth> I accept it does no harm 22:45:41 <andythenorth> cargo waiting: 99 bottles of beer 22:45:56 <andythenorth> time for bed :) 22:46:18 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 22:48:50 *** valhalla1w [~valhallas@193.52.24.37] has joined #openttd 22:49:07 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6D59C.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:53:50 *** valhalla2w [~valhallas@193.52.24.37] has joined #openttd 22:55:52 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@vpn91.ext.espci.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:56:57 *** valhalla1w [~valhallas@193.52.24.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:58:15 *** TWerkhoven [~Turbulent@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:06:50 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: Do you think it would make sense to change YAIM to show "123 â¬/month (456)"? 23:07:16 <Eddi|zuHause> imho just leave out the 456 completely 23:08:02 <michi_cc> The window is showing the count though if you disable maintenance cost, something some people might find useful. 23:08:19 <Eddi|zuHause> or add a details button listing "tracks" "crossings" "signals" "stations" "tunnels" etc. for each railtype 23:09:33 <Eddi|zuHause> so you can have: "tracks: 123", "crossings: 35 (x2)", "tunnels: 12 (x4)", ... "sum: 456" 23:10:11 <michi_cc> Oh, crossings are much more evil :p For overlapping track bits, its count² 23:10:34 <Eddi|zuHause> details... :) 23:11:25 *** z-MaTRiX [~matrix@index.linuxsecured.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:12:01 <michi_cc> So a detail window in a detail window? I refuse to write an expandable tree or something like that. 23:13:53 <Eddi|zuHause> so it's "switches: 34 (x4, x9)"? 23:14:49 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.189] has joined #openttd 23:15:45 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe "switches: 15 (x4)", "crossings: 25 (x9..x36)"? 23:17:09 <Eddi|zuHause> and [?]-click on a tile could show that tile's maintenance cost 23:17:36 <Eddi|zuHause> (maybe i should actually test the patch...) 23:20:13 <peter1138> why does it need to be so detailed? 23:21:18 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: so people notice which sections are really evil maintenance-wise 23:21:55 <peter1138> i'm still trying to add a scrollbar to the finances window 23:22:07 <peter1138> so that no extra window is needed for the breakdown of costs, maybe ;) 23:22:27 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: what's the problem with that? 23:22:50 <Eddi|zuHause> with the new widget trees, that should be a really simple task 23:29:10 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-095-033-153-132.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 23:30:50 <Zuu> I have always missed a window with a sumary over how much infrastructure each company have. The company window have vehicle counts but if you want eg. station counts you need to open also the station list of all companies. 23:32:06 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-24-125-108.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:40:16 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:42:33 *** valhalla2w [~valhallas@193.52.24.37] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:55:02 *** JVassie [~James@2.27.86.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:55:36 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [] 23:58:09 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: The finance window is not much more than a single widget in which everything is hand-drawn. 23:58:48 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: so just offset and crop the drawing depending on scrollbar position 23:59:20 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4d083d45.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us!] 23:59:21 <Eddi|zuHause> or split it into separate widgets (e.g. one for each year)