Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:00:08 <z-MaTRiX> reprogrammed them, and used it for other purposes 00:00:38 <z-MaTRiX> it is a programmable functional logic array. 00:00:54 <z-MaTRiX> you can program it to be a video card 00:00:54 *** B-17 [~B-17@83-238-150-233.ip.netia.com.pl] has joined #openttd 00:01:04 <z-MaTRiX> washing machine, or anything. 00:01:05 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [] 00:01:37 * Eddi|zuHause still waits for the day when are you telling us something of value 00:02:15 <z-MaTRiX> Eddi|zuHause<< well you asked if i know what it is 00:03:18 <Eddi|zuHause> but how does "you can program an FPGA to be a graphics card" relate to "a graphics card is a specialized FPGA"? 00:03:24 <z-MaTRiX> i don't see any reason to post random crap on here 00:04:02 <z-MaTRiX> its not an FPGA 00:04:14 <z-MaTRiX> it is a fixed function ic 00:04:22 <__ln__> is this the shortest way to map {<0,0,>0} to {0,1,2}: (s<0)?0:(s>0)?2:1 (we can imagine s is a return value by strcmp, for example) 00:04:22 <z-MaTRiX> that is why its cheaper 00:05:30 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: how about "cmp(0,value)+1"? 00:06:49 *** B-17 [~B-17@83-238-150-233.ip.netia.com.pl] has quit [] 00:06:53 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: likely you're asking a way too specialized question, and should look at the more general problem 00:08:43 <z-MaTRiX> cmp value,0;ja above;jb below;mov ax,1;jmp done;above: mov ax,2;jmp done;below:mov ax,0;done: 00:09:11 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 00:09:13 <__ln__> well, actually i'm just thinking about the shortest piece of C code that would give me one of '<','=','>' characters based on the return value of strcmp or strcoll. 00:11:18 <__ln__> this isn't obviously very important. 00:12:08 <z-MaTRiX> wouldn't you want it because you want better performance? 00:13:07 <__ln__> no no, the parameter of optimization is indeed the number of characters in source code this time. 00:13:52 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: chr(clamp(value,-1,+1)+ord('=')) 00:14:32 <Eddi|zuHause> where in C, chr and ord are NOPs 00:15:39 <__ln__> and clamp is something that would need to be defined separately 00:16:58 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: look in src/core/math_func.hpp 00:21:03 <z-MaTRiX> (s>=0)+(s>0); 00:21:08 <z-MaTRiX> win? 00:22:37 <__ln__> z-MaTRiX: cool, that's the winner so far 00:23:15 * Pinkbeast is a Perl programmer and we don't even bother with obfuscated code contests. :-/ 00:23:23 <z-MaTRiX> ;>> 00:23:30 <z-MaTRiX> i do it in bash too 00:23:38 <Pinkbeast> It would be like a contest for falling off a log 00:24:13 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe something like s&1-2*s>>31 00:24:27 <Eddi|zuHause> for -1,0,1, assuming s is 32bit 00:24:40 <Eddi|zuHause> better 00:25:03 <z-MaTRiX> yeah if its integer 00:25:08 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B303.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:26:05 <Eddi|zuHause> should check operator precedence first, though 00:26:22 <__ln__> yeah, bit operations would be nice, but as far as i can imagine they need an assumption of the size. 00:28:19 <z-MaTRiX> in asm i'd use rol now 00:28:35 <__ln__> so now i have: printf("%s %c %s\n", argv[1], "<=>"[(s>=0)+(s>0)], argv[2]); which is comfortably short and elegant to add in a thesis, for example 00:28:38 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, i'm stupid. 00:28:54 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... one moment 00:29:36 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: i think that is needlessly complicated 00:29:55 *** DDR [~chatzilla@142.179.78.88] has joined #openttd 00:30:30 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: as in ascii, <=> are neighbours, so you can just use '='+1 and '='-1 00:30:44 <peter1138> but! 00:31:05 <z-MaTRiX> :) 00:31:16 <Eddi|zuHause> or save one character by writing 61 instead of '=' 00:31:31 <peter1138> EBCDIC! 00:32:11 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, they weren't so bright :p 00:33:16 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: but good luck compiling your ascii-encoded c-file on that one :p 00:33:26 <z-MaTRiX> so write char "c+(s>=0)+(s>0)" 00:33:27 <z-MaTRiX> :) 00:33:32 <peter1138> :) 00:33:57 <z-MaTRiX> sounds c00l 00:35:14 *** LordAro [5684195e@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 00:36:00 <Eddi|zuHause> how about: "61+s&0-(s<0)"? 00:36:31 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, might have some "odd" results 00:36:48 <z-MaTRiX> s&0 = 0 00:36:49 <Eddi|zuHause> that one's wrong 00:37:56 <Eddi|zuHause> need to stay at "61+(s>0)-(s<0)" 00:38:13 <Eddi|zuHause> comparison operators are "bad" because of the needed parentheses 00:38:55 <z-MaTRiX> unfortunately 00:39:30 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: is that an acceptable solution? 00:40:09 <z-MaTRiX> seems short enough for me 00:40:25 <Eddi|zuHause> "<=>"[(s>=0)+(s>0)] == 19 chars, 61+(s>0)-(s<0) = 14 chars 00:40:31 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: sure, it's self-contained and short. 00:40:55 <z-MaTRiX> but nice examples 00:41:05 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it does rely on the assumption of ascii 00:41:18 <z-MaTRiX> yeah 00:41:29 <z-MaTRiX> that's hardcoding 00:41:50 <z-MaTRiX> otherwise you need to include an ascii table 00:45:31 <z-MaTRiX> i'm willing to include an ascii font set in my SDL.h for basic text output ;/ 00:45:49 <z-MaTRiX> i'd prefer the one from my bios 00:46:56 <z-MaTRiX> it'd be cool to detect x86 at program start, and use x86 optimized inline ASM code for outputting text then to graphic sreen 00:47:21 <peter1138> no it wouldn't 00:47:36 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the compiler's job 00:47:39 <__ln__> agreed, it wouldn't 00:47:40 <z-MaTRiX> why not? bit manipulations in C in a loop? 00:48:12 <z-MaTRiX> for every character 00:48:20 <Eddi|zuHause> that's still the compiler's job 00:49:01 <__ln__> z-MaTRiX: what does "detect x86 at program start" mean actually... your program is compiled for ARM, and then it suddenly detects it's been ran on an x86 (which isn't possible), and utilizes x86-optimized code? 00:49:08 <z-MaTRiX> but its a low level function and could take adventage of optimization 00:49:38 <Eddi|zuHause> then you need to teach the compiler to do these optimisations 00:50:23 <peter1138> computer graphic subsystems haven't been that low-level for years 00:50:54 <Eddi|zuHause> you would not program a game this way since the mid 90's 00:51:16 <z-MaTRiX> well i was only talking about the outputting of 8x5 pixel fonts 00:51:39 <z-MaTRiX> that only needs 5 bytes / character 00:52:18 <__ln__> and that's the thing that needs optimization the most? 00:52:41 <Eddi|zuHause> "i use a graphical abstraction layer to override the abstraction by directly outputting to video memory" 00:52:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure you trigger a dozen antipatterns by that :p 00:53:35 <z-MaTRiX> ok the virtual framebuffer may be inefficient too. so? 00:54:02 <z-MaTRiX> i shouldn't optimize anything and just "make it work" ? 00:54:37 <Eddi|zuHause> z-MaTRiX: the order is "make it work" => "profile it" => "optimize the most significant parts" 00:54:45 <z-MaTRiX> it seems to me that bit operations are not the strength of C 00:55:45 <peter1138> ok, 823 sprites in this "32bit megapack" 00:55:50 <peter1138> that seems somewhat of a shortfall 00:55:50 <Eddi|zuHause> z-MaTRiX: of course writing C is going to be bad if you're an ASM programmer. 00:56:07 <peter1138> oops, 768 00:56:19 <z-MaTRiX> Eddi|zuHause<< i can take some compromises 00:56:40 <z-MaTRiX> but i will still optimize my putpixel. 00:56:46 <Eddi|zuHause> z-MaTRiX: likewise your C code will be bad if you're a Haskell programmer 00:57:10 <z-MaTRiX> :) 00:57:24 <z-MaTRiX> depends on what you want 00:57:26 <Eddi|zuHause> just from the complete opposite direction 00:57:42 <z-MaTRiX> i've been at both extremes 00:57:45 <__ln__> a compiler can generate different code for different processors even, can you? 00:58:25 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: yes. it can even dynamically switch on processor type, if you set it the right way 00:59:11 <__ln__> indeed, i was referring to different code within the same binary 00:59:26 <z-MaTRiX> that'd be interesting :) 00:59:42 <peter1138> oh. hmm. there are sprites that have 32bpp replacements showing up as 8bpp only :S 01:00:12 <Eddi|zuHause> wrong metadata? 01:00:24 *** KenjiE20 [kenjie20@free.blinkenshell.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:01:01 <z-MaTRiX> __ln__<< well it might need recompiling though ;< 01:01:10 <z-MaTRiX> ( for an arm ) 01:01:11 <peter1138> ,.......,.......if (height > UINT8_MAX || width > UINT16_MAX) { 01:01:13 <peter1138> ah ha 01:02:45 <z-MaTRiX> it'd be like ifdef x86 ... putpixel_x86 endif ... 01:03:04 <z-MaTRiX> and still be portable 01:03:14 *** Adambean [~AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing] 01:04:05 <__ln__> putpixel_arm could be a bit trickier to do 01:04:09 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: that sounds evil 01:04:24 <z-MaTRiX> willing to do that if i'll have an arm :) 01:06:11 <peter1138> putpixel -> buffer[x+y*pitch] = value 01:06:23 <peter1138> obviously you keep y*pitch around if you're drawing lots on the same line 01:06:41 <peter1138> do you think specific assembly will help you with that? 01:07:22 <__ln__> i bet a lot of ARMs don't have any kind of graphics controller, and even within those that do, its specs vary a lot. 01:07:30 <Eddi|zuHause> inline putpixel, and the compiler will likely result in waaaay better assembly that you could ever come up with 01:08:08 <Eddi|zuHause> like some evil MMX or SSE call 01:08:09 <z-MaTRiX> ok guys relax 01:08:16 <peter1138> __ln__, modern smartphones do, i guess 01:08:46 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: but SDL covers all that 01:08:51 <z-MaTRiX> i have not done any benchmark on it 01:09:07 <z-MaTRiX> anyway i did meant DDE2 code for optimizations. 01:09:13 <peter1138> of course, pixel pushing always comes down to setting a value in a buffer, whether that's video memory or some system memory buffer 01:09:13 <z-MaTRiX> *SSE2 01:09:26 <z-MaTRiX> for some things 01:09:41 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: but i suppose SDL covers that through some OS abstraction layer, which isn't optimal. 01:09:53 <z-MaTRiX> and it will surely improve matrix transformation speeds. 01:09:59 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: yes, we pointed that out already 01:10:44 <peter1138> bbc micro had a 'fun' memory layout for the screen 01:10:47 <z-MaTRiX> i believe SSE2 code has to be hand written. 01:11:02 <z-MaTRiX> gcc does not optimize for that 01:11:31 <Eddi|zuHause> z-MaTRiX: and is tha belief based on any data? 01:11:31 <z-MaTRiX> it cannot know-all 01:12:13 <Eddi|zuHause> z-MaTRiX: it won't if you put "-m i386" 01:12:15 <z-MaTRiX> Eddi|zuHause<< well, have you used SSE2 before? 01:12:50 <z-MaTRiX> single instruction multiple data 01:12:59 <z-MaTRiX> parallel computing #1 01:13:16 <z-MaTRiX> but still, core functions 01:13:30 <Eddi|zuHause> z-MaTRiX: that's an obvious optimization when you do loop-unfolding 01:13:43 <Eddi|zuHause> why wouldn't GCC do that? 01:14:30 <Eddi|zuHause> and there's other compilers, like icc 01:15:11 <z-MaTRiX> yeah i have seen compilers for 000+ 01:15:31 <z-MaTRiX> doing some insane optimizations 01:16:16 <z-MaTRiX> i'm not argueing with making a monkey drawing 01:16:33 <z-MaTRiX> or painting some art 01:17:06 <z-MaTRiX> it's probably straight-forward 01:23:44 <z-MaTRiX> i found this now 01:23:47 <z-MaTRiX> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_vectorization#Techniques 01:24:17 <z-MaTRiX> they say in-theory gcc can optimize using SSE2 01:24:38 <z-MaTRiX> some things 01:34:06 <peter1138> heh, never noticed that, original trains are drawn 2 pixels too low in the horizontal view 01:34:18 <peter1138> maybe 1 01:34:36 <peter1138> oh what have i unleashed? :S 01:35:27 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that's why practically every set has a depot offset of 2 01:42:20 *** hanf^ [~Klaus@host-2-101-53-177.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 01:49:04 *** hanf [~Klaus@host-2-101-53-177.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:53:45 *** supermop_ [~daniel_er@cpe-184-57-41-122.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 02:12:18 *** hanf^ [~Klaus@host-2-101-53-177.as13285.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:35:47 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-061-066.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 02:40:49 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:3943:8607:c2d9:f6cc] has quit [Quit: bye] 02:52:50 *** perk11 [~perk11@188.32.29.238] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 03:10:17 <z-MaTRiX> [010246] __ln__ is this the shortest way to map {<0,0,>0} to {0,1,2}: (s<0)?0:(s>0)?2:1 (we can imagine s is a return value by strcmp, for example) 03:10:30 <z-MaTRiX> btw it was overcomplicated from the beginning 03:10:31 *** DDR_ [~chatzilla@142.179.78.88] has joined #openttd 03:14:32 <z-MaTRiX> (s<0)?"<":(s>0)?">":"=" 03:16:28 <z-MaTRiX> seems to be the most logical approach 03:16:44 *** DDR [~chatzilla@142.179.78.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:19:12 <Eddi|zuHause> but the question was not "logical" 03:20:25 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.74.36] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:20:37 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.74.36] has joined #openttd 03:25:06 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 03:27:56 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 03:30:18 *** Jerik [1873c666@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 03:30:54 <Jerik> Can anyone help me with how to design a good reversal? 03:31:22 <Jerik> As in, say I have a line linking A-B-C-D 03:31:55 <Jerik> How to I get a train to just loop in B and C without travelling all the way around to A and D 03:32:05 <Jerik> This is assuming a two-way line 03:32:45 <Eddi|zuHause> you need to enable the difficulty setting: allow reversing in stations 03:33:34 <Jerik> Yeah, is there a good way without doing that? 03:33:47 <Jerik> So that my stations can all be Roro's 03:34:32 <Eddi|zuHause> never tried that 03:35:27 <Eddi|zuHause> but you'll just need a track that runs around the station, which may be tricky depending on size 03:35:37 <Jerik> right 03:35:48 <Jerik> I've been trying to put a depot between the lines 03:35:53 <Jerik> And then run tunnels under 03:36:04 <Jerik> But I feel like that just destroys efficiency 03:36:18 <Eddi|zuHause> or you run through the station twice, with "no loading" orders 03:37:25 <Eddi|zuHause> so arrival and departure will be on different platforms 03:42:25 <Jerik> Hmm 04:08:00 *** Snail_ [~jacopocol@cpe-66-108-237-227.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Snail_] 04:22:25 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@85.210.74.36] has joined #openttd 04:22:26 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.74.36] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:40:56 *** supermop_ [~daniel_er@cpe-184-57-41-122.columbus.res.rr.com] has left #openttd [] 04:53:51 *** Jerik [1873c666@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 05:53:55 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B7340E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:54:16 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B755F2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 06:25:34 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 06:30:12 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e0a9627.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:02:43 *** DDR_ [~chatzilla@142.179.78.88] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:03:14 *** LordAro [5684195e@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 07:03:21 *** DDR [~chatzilla@142.179.78.88] has joined #openttd 07:07:25 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 07:34:33 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@ip-86-49-59-25.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 07:35:30 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:36:12 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 07:48:30 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:58:36 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 07:58:39 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 08:03:52 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 08:09:28 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@88.130.170.39] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:15:32 <peter1138> oh dear 08:15:41 <peter1138> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/RailtypeLabels 08:15:45 <peter1138> o_O 08:16:02 <Xaroth> I don't get ti :P 08:16:04 <Xaroth> it, even. 08:17:37 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19EC5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 08:17:53 <dihedral> good morning 08:18:06 <peter1138> why do they make so many different types for the same thing :( 08:18:18 <peter1138> TRPD transrapid track Transrapid track type 08:18:20 <peter1138> ^^ MGLV 08:19:15 <Xaroth> I think XKCD made a nice comic about that one 08:22:11 *** APTX [APTX@89-78-217-144.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:27:42 <planetmaker> peter1138: the use of railtypes is not quite clearly defined: should it unique per track type or unique per "traction" type 08:27:57 <planetmaker> where traction is broader as to also distinguish speed or axle weight 08:28:29 <peter1138> planetmaker, the slow/med/fast stuff is all fine 08:29:08 <peter1138> but the DB*/TRPD/FR* stuff is plain unnecessary 08:31:20 <planetmaker> I fully agree 08:31:50 <peter1138> and the MTR* stuff is all a horrible hack 08:31:56 <planetmaker> though the db* stuff is supposed to rather represent an axle weight scheme - thus there might be some sense. As there is some sense for NG labels 08:32:08 <peter1138> MTRO -> 3RDR o_O 08:32:20 <peter1138> narrow gauge, definitely 08:33:23 <planetmaker> all the FR* are supposed to be NG 08:33:54 <planetmaker> thus "wrong" labels 08:34:21 <planetmaker> but if we wanted a use of RT labels similar to cargo labels, we'd have to define a somewhat canonical ensemble of labels to be used 08:34:55 <planetmaker> and not let every track author define his or her own. 08:36:17 <Xaroth> peter1138: http://xkcd.com/927/ 08:38:00 <planetmaker> hehe, yeah, that's a good one 08:38:20 <planetmaker> peter1138: the "problem" is that railtypes can be used as 08:38:32 <planetmaker> a) just an internal name w/o much meaning and using the compatible railtype list 08:38:56 <planetmaker> b) as a semi-canonical label which defines tracks which somewhat match what the label stands for 08:40:29 <planetmaker> there was an idea of the property of an "equivalent" railtype label list 08:40:46 <planetmaker> which gives vehicle sets the chance to focus on a somewhat canonical subset 08:42:30 <peter1138> did we ever have a weight limit property? 08:42:48 <peter1138> i don't think it could work actually, heh 08:43:46 <peter1138> hmm, only as an average 08:44:16 <peter1138> and then loading algorithms would need adjusting... god... no... 08:44:39 <planetmaker> there's no such property, no 08:44:53 <planetmaker> it'd need support by vehicles in the first place 08:45:09 <planetmaker> but can still be done with a trainset which supports the appropriate labels 08:45:38 <planetmaker> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2763 08:51:51 *** Celestar [~dax@217.110.29.210] has joined #openttd 08:55:24 <peter1138> anyone fancy add zoom in/out buttons to the sprite viewer? :) 08:55:44 <Celestar> \o 09:00:53 <Alberth> o/ 09:03:04 *** Celestar [~dax@217.110.29.210] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:03:33 *** Celestar [~dax@217.110.29.210] has joined #openttd 09:05:37 *** rhaeder [~quix0r@dslb-094-221-157-118.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 09:06:04 <planetmaker> peter1138: the sprite aligner is also a bit broken... I need to click 4x to have the sprite move 1px at normal zoom level 09:06:14 <planetmaker> while the number goes up with each click 09:06:30 <planetmaker> (it shows the zoomed-in sprites for 4x though 09:06:31 <planetmaker> ) 09:06:48 <peter1138> planetmaker, yeah the alignment is for 4x sprites 09:07:00 <peter1138> i'm wondering about alignment now, though 09:07:11 <planetmaker> imho it should be for the current zoom-level 09:07:21 <planetmaker> no zoom-selector then needed 09:07:32 <planetmaker> aligning a sprite of a non-active zoom-level seems stupid 09:07:49 <peter1138> zoom level of which viewport ;) 09:08:16 <planetmaker> main 09:09:07 <peter1138> wondering how per-zoom level sprite size/offsets would work 09:10:07 <Celestar> where was the option to reverse mouse scrolling 09:10:49 <peter1138> interface -> interaction 09:10:54 <Celestar> ta 09:21:11 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 09:21:21 <peter1138> heh, these 32bpp-ez sprites have incorrect palettes for the mask sprites 09:27:16 <peter1138> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=57460 < cry 09:29:36 <planetmaker> what? that EJ fails on reading comprehension? 09:30:02 <planetmaker> hm... or is he right after all? :-) 09:31:36 <peter1138> eh, i meant the original post. hmm. 09:33:31 <planetmaker> hm, the OP writes TTD, not OpenTTD. Maybe EJ is right after all :-) 09:33:43 <planetmaker> never underestimate stupidity, it seems 09:34:26 <appe> "EJ"? 09:39:44 <Alberth> appe: look at the initial letters of the name of the final post author 09:40:00 <appe> ah, i see 09:40:26 <appe> i must say 09:40:33 <appe> you have the cutest forum on the web. 09:41:02 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-38-143.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 09:47:02 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-5-177.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:58:35 *** perk11 [~perk11@188.32.29.238] has joined #openttd 10:15:14 *** Phoenix_the_II [~ralph@home.deboom.biz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:38:26 *** MNIM [~mBuntu@ip5452ffad.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:51:44 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-080-084.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 10:55:38 *** andythenorth [~Andy@78-86-194-127.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 10:55:55 <andythenorth> morfing 10:56:15 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [] 10:56:46 <planetmaker> salut andythenorth 10:57:31 <planetmaker> I'm afraid the worst assumption in that thread was right, peter1138 ;-) 10:57:38 <Alberth> efenik andy 11:02:51 *** DDR [~chatzilla@142.179.78.88] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 8.0/20111115183541]] 11:06:26 *** perk11 [~perk11@188.32.29.238] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 11:07:30 <peter1138> hmm, resizable spriteviewer window? 11:07:45 <lugo> i'm wondering, if r23321 was commited 16 hours ago, how could it have been released on 2011-11-23 like stated on http://www.openttd.org/en/download-trunk ? 11:07:55 <planetmaker> peter1138: why resizable? 11:08:05 <peter1138> cos 4x sprites don't fit :p 11:08:13 <planetmaker> :-D 11:08:16 <peter1138> well, not too important 11:08:23 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b29.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Quit: - nbs-irc 2.39 - www.nbs-irc.net -] 11:09:15 <planetmaker> seems like an off-by-one-day, lugo ;-) 11:09:39 <planetmaker> ^ TrueBrain ? 11:09:54 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b29.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 11:16:06 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-080-084.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:16:34 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-080-084.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 11:16:40 <TrueBrain> I have no clue what so ever. The CF puts the right date in the file, and during transfer I receive a file of a day earlier 11:16:42 <TrueBrain> go figure :S 11:17:32 <dihedral> summer time? 11:18:00 <dihedral> ... because summer time is exactly one day, not one hour ... 11:18:02 <dihedral> ops 11:19:16 <Alberth> someone has been playing with a time machine :p 11:19:35 <TrueBrain> the odd part is that finger is correct .. which is also deduced from the same information 11:20:24 *** KenjiE20 [kenjie20@free.blinkenshell.org] has joined #openttd 11:20:49 <Alberth> that would point to the FS info being correct, imho 11:21:42 <Alberth> timezone of the website? 11:21:49 <TrueBrain> no timezone is -24 11:25:55 <Alberth> you need only -20 or so 11:26:02 <TrueBrain> no, it is exactly -24 11:26:38 <TrueBrain> added some debug statements, we will see tonight what it thinks it is doing :P 11:26:47 <Alberth> :) 11:27:03 * Alberth keeps fingers X-ed tonight 11:27:38 <planetmaker> meh... just recreated an hour-long a patch which I thought I had lost. And now I find it :S 11:28:29 <TrueBrain> it seems it takes the relased.txt of last night, which would be odd .. meh, we will see 11:28:37 <TrueBrain> poor planetmaker :( 11:30:28 <peter1138> is the recreation better? 11:32:13 <planetmaker> they're identical except some variable names 11:32:32 <planetmaker> I still knew quite exactly what I needed / was looking for 11:33:10 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23323 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Fix: when you fund a town, it should grow; goals reached or not 11:38:23 * andythenorth had some thoughts about industries and GS 11:38:36 <andythenorth> there is some stuff that really should be delegated to GS, e.g. closure 11:40:39 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has joined #openttd 11:42:50 <planetmaker> andythenorth: we had the idea to introduce a callback for industries for that purpose 11:43:31 <andythenorth> some parts of industries need to be a black box (e.g. production) 11:43:37 <andythenorth> or we need to move to industry code being provided by GS rather than newgrf 11:43:40 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r23324 /trunk/src/spriteloader/grf.cpp: -Fix (r15555): Don't free reusable buffer. 11:43:41 <andythenorth> which might be better long term 11:43:53 <andythenorth> a goal script *should* be able to control industry production 11:44:03 <andythenorth> but currently that's insane 11:44:08 <TrueBrain> it would be nice if it can *hint* increase/decrease 11:44:36 <andythenorth> indeed 11:44:39 *** Celestar [~dax@217.110.29.210] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:44:44 <andythenorth> industries are quite a detailed problem 11:44:49 <andythenorth> maybe a spec... 11:44:53 <andythenorth> maybe later :P 11:45:14 <TrueBrain> but given the amount of shit already in newgrfs, it would be (kinda) impossible to make it more than hinting :) 11:45:44 <andythenorth> so break newgrfs 11:45:50 * andythenorth doesn't care about breaking newgrfs 11:46:08 <TrueBrain> sadly, you are not the only grf author :P 11:46:08 <andythenorth> newgrfs are fragile because the APIs are fragile in place 11:46:15 <andythenorth> we can't fix the APIs without breaking stuff 11:46:33 <peter1138> industry classes... 11:46:34 <andythenorth> fortunately I am not the only grf author :P 11:46:49 <andythenorth> classes. lol :P 12:04:28 *** snack2 [~nn@dsl-prvbrasgw1-fe05dc00-37.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 12:09:21 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@ip-86-49-59-25.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:17:39 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-080-084.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:17:50 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-058-182.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 12:25:18 *** LordPixaII is now known as Pixa 12:26:39 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.74.36] has left #openttd [Laters] 12:29:35 <peter1138> these CETS wagons turn a bit oddly 12:29:48 <peter1138> i guess due to michi's changes? 12:30:30 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.74.36] has joined #openttd 12:33:19 <michi_cc> peter1138: Probably. The graphic offsets were quite specifically tuned to the old behaviour. 12:35:47 <peter1138> *nod* 12:42:23 *** hanf [~Klaus@host-89-242-71-205.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 12:50:17 <planetmaker> the zoom levels are really nice, peter1138 :-) 12:50:30 <planetmaker> just makes me find many small sprite glitches :-( 12:54:01 <peter1138> minor sorting/position issues or hugely in the wrong place issues? heh 12:54:04 <Alberth> a fresh pair of eyes sees many errors :) 12:59:31 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r23325 /trunk/src/screenshot.cpp: -Fix (r23316): World screenshot was incorrectly positioned. 13:00:47 <planetmaker> peter1138: mostly I found some small position errors. But also that the animations of industries differ in pixels where they shouldn't 13:00:59 <planetmaker> It doesn't show on normal zoom. But looks funky when zoomed in 13:01:14 <planetmaker> like the animation of the coal mine shaft 13:01:20 <peter1138> yeah, some things are known wrong, i'm working on them :) 13:01:47 <planetmaker> not your fault. It's all sprites what I meant 13:02:08 <peter1138> ? 13:02:18 <planetmaker> look at the opengfx coalmine for example 13:02:25 <peter1138> oh 13:02:28 <planetmaker> There are pixels changing colour slightly which should not 13:02:43 <planetmaker> it didn't really show before, though. At least not to me 13:02:58 <peter1138> lol 13:02:58 <peter1138> yeah 13:03:01 <peter1138> the dithering :) 13:03:03 <planetmaker> yup 13:03:11 <planetmaker> same with basically all other animations 13:03:17 <planetmaker> more or less 13:03:32 <Alberth> lots of work :( 13:03:48 <planetmaker> yeah :S 13:04:47 <peter1138> even so, there are some offsets that are wrong still :) 13:05:49 *** Xaroth [~Xaroth@059-057-128-083.dynamic.caiway.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:06:54 <peter1138> Trunk uses 32bpp sprites just fine. Same as it does for years. Literally. 13:06:56 <peter1138> damn right 13:35:16 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-058-182.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:35:26 *** Elukka [Elukka@78-27-80-61.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 13:35:28 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-095-033-156-065.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 13:43:03 *** TomyLobo2 [~foo@p4FC22DA6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 13:46:19 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:bc05:7366:2a12:d601] has joined #openttd 13:46:22 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 13:46:26 <peter1138> does nml understand 32bpp pngs? 13:46:41 <peter1138> as in for openttd to load, not to compile into the newgrf 13:48:51 <Hirundo> NML supports 32bpp, it used to work for both normal and EZ sprites 13:48:54 *** TomyLobo [~foo@p5494790E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:48:54 *** TomyLobo2 is now known as TomyLobo 13:49:59 <planetmaker> it's mostly untested, though 13:52:37 <Hirundo> I don't know if NML needs changing after the recent changes to ottd 13:54:00 <Eddi|zuHause> <peter1138> these CETS wagons turn a bit oddly <-- haven't gotten around to adjusting it yet 13:54:42 <Eddi|zuHause> possibly i need to completely revamp the "slicing" system 13:54:43 <andythenorth> wrt to industries and GS 13:54:47 <planetmaker> Hirundo: so far wrt sprite handling nothing changed 13:54:52 <andythenorth> we probably need to look at how GS can influence: 13:54:59 <planetmaker> no new zoom level sprites yet accepted 13:55:01 <andythenorth> - production multiplier 13:55:07 <andythenorth> - automatic production multiplier handling 13:55:48 <andythenorth> - cb28 (but probably not 2f) 13:55:49 <andythenorth> - cb22 13:56:02 <andythenorth> - cb29 13:56:23 * andythenorth needs to have a think. 13:56:48 <andythenorth> newgrf industries *should* be able to cede a reasonable amount of control to GS, but it needs a clean boundary 13:58:02 <Alberth> 'need more/less cargo X' ? 13:59:21 <Noldo> what is GS? 13:59:30 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe we should scratch the idea of changing industry production, since the GameScript has no idea what the cargos actually represent 13:59:35 <Alberth> adjustment of probabilities? 13:59:46 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: +1 13:59:58 <andythenorth> unless game scripts are tied to a specific newgrf... 14:00:02 <andythenorth> which they could be 14:00:26 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: which will horribly break once you have different versions of the game script and the newgrf 14:00:30 <Alberth> Noldo: game script 14:00:54 <Noldo> how concrete is that thing? 14:01:19 <Alberth> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=57431 14:02:50 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: agreed 14:03:10 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: place of building is a scenario thing, isn't it? 14:03:20 <andythenorth> it's also incredibly tiresome if every GS has to try and fix industry closure 14:03:26 <andythenorth> which is currently broken 14:03:56 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: yes, but scenario editor can only do initial placement, the rest is up to the game script 14:04:02 <planetmaker> why is it broken, andythenorth? 14:04:22 <andythenorth> planetmaker: have you experienced mass closure ever? :) 14:04:25 <andythenorth> is it annoying 14:04:26 <andythenorth> ? 14:04:46 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I was thinking to define areas where you can create certain industries. 14:04:50 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: what i had in mind was e.g.: the game script marks some towns as "mining towns", and allows mines to only appear near these towns throughout the game 14:05:01 <planetmaker> I might have done so. But no, I so far had not much issue with industry closures 14:05:08 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: how would it know which are mines? 14:05:08 <planetmaker> with nor without newgrfs really 14:05:17 <planetmaker> not in any annoying way at least 14:05:25 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: "extractive" industries 14:05:35 <planetmaker> andythenorth: extractive type 14:05:38 <andythenorth> so go by existing prop 14:05:41 <andythenorth> makes good sense 14:05:45 <andythenorth> +1 14:06:02 <Eddi|zuHause> the station naming code has a similar calculation what constitutes a mine 14:07:09 <andythenorth> so an industry has 'proprietary' (or private) information, and 'public' information 14:07:20 <Alberth> ? 14:07:22 <andythenorth> the code for processing has to be private 14:07:29 <Belugas> hi hello good day 14:07:37 <Alberth> andythenorth: makes sense 14:07:41 <Alberth> hi Belugas 14:07:44 <andythenorth> that's a black box 14:07:51 <andythenorth> from perspective of GS 14:07:53 <Belugas> sir Alberth, I salute ya 14:08:04 * Alberth salutes to Belugas 14:09:05 <planetmaker> salute Belugas 14:09:08 <Eddi|zuHause> suppose i have a TileIndex, what's the canonic way to get the X and Y coordinates (in game script)? 14:09:50 *** Xaroth [~Xaroth@059-057-128-083.dynamic.caiway.nl] has joined #openttd 14:10:06 * Belugas salutes planetmaker as well :) 14:16:15 <Xaroth> o/ Belugas 14:16:45 <Belugas> and Xaroth receives a salute as well 14:17:04 <V453000> hello, is there an option to disable the extra zoom levels? 14:17:56 <planetmaker> yes. in the adv. settings 14:18:17 <V453000> ah got it 14:18:19 <V453000> thanks anyway 14:18:26 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc12-linl7-2-0-cust144.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 14:18:56 <Eddi|zuHause> ... and what's the squirrel equivalent to python's "for i, x in enumerate(list)"? 14:19:14 <Belugas> fun... new feature comes in.. how to disable it... almost the same every time 14:19:24 <Belugas> just a simple observation, not ranting 14:20:19 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-095-033-156-065.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:21:20 <Xaroth> Eddi|zuHause: foreach (i, x in list) {} ? 14:21:50 <Xaroth> Belugas: the extra zoom levels are quite.. intrusive, so I can totally understand V453000 :P 14:23:13 <Belugas> what do you mean? 14:23:33 <Belugas> and.. i said it was an observation, not a charge against the comment ;) 14:23:47 <planetmaker> if you zoom out and then back in, you easily go past the normal zoom 14:24:01 <planetmaker> esp. when doing so via scroll wheel or guesture 14:25:32 <V453000> yes but one often zooms out to see the map, and then zoom in back. I constantly keep zooming in to 2x or 4x even instead of the desired 1x :) 14:25:52 <V453000> and in the end, the extra zoom not really useful anyhow 14:26:04 <V453000> as of now at least 14:26:51 <V453000> well one could zoom in to discover some minor problems of some sprites which are normally invisible :D 14:33:33 <lugo> what about ctrl+zoom-in/out = 1x? 14:34:31 <peter1138> it's useful 14:34:41 *** hanf [~Klaus@host-89-242-71-205.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:35:06 <peter1138> 1x can be an eyestrain on high resolutions, at least 14:35:12 <peter1138> and lcds suck for scaling, so... 14:35:32 <peter1138> but yes, those settings are there for a reason too :) 14:38:06 <Xaroth> well zooming max the first time does give you instant-headache on 1920x1200 :P 14:38:23 <Xaroth> but once you get used to it (and change the setting to max 2x) it's actually useful. 14:38:58 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e0a9627.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 14:55:20 *** APTX [APTX@89-78-217-144.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #openttd 14:59:52 *** Adambean [~AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 15:03:28 <Alberth> lugo: then you immediately get requests to make the default configurable 15:26:23 *** ptr [~peter@c213-89-142-179.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #openttd 15:38:37 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:53:33 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 16:00:16 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-4d009246.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 16:03:16 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 16:23:17 <Eddi|zuHause> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Qsd0T1B3z4&feature=feedu <-- "minecraft, the movie" (german) 16:30:37 *** TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has joined #openttd 16:38:19 *** TheMask96 [~martijn@gluttony.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:42:42 *** TheMask96 [~martijn@lust.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 16:49:51 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 17:08:48 *** Zuu_ [~Zuu@2.64.65.114.mobile.tre.se] has joined #openttd 17:14:47 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 17:20:36 *** B-17 [~B-17@83-238-150-233.ip.netia.com.pl] has joined #openttd 17:23:46 *** Zuu_ [~Zuu@2.64.65.114.mobile.tre.se] has quit [Quit: Bye] 17:24:02 *** Zuu_ [~Zuu@2.64.65.114.mobile.tre.se] has joined #openttd 17:24:51 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 17:29:02 *** Zuu__ [~Zuu@2.68.248.10.mobile.tre.se] has joined #openttd 17:29:29 *** andythenorth [~Andy@78-86-194-127.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 17:32:01 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23326 /trunk/src/table/gameopt_settings.ini: -Fix [FS#4852] (r23239): snow line for very old savegames wasn't retrieved from the savegame anymore 17:33:47 <Eddi|zuHause> is something like this possible in squirrel: "sign(x) == cmp(y,z)"? 17:33:47 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-178-004-176-085.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 17:34:37 <Eddi|zuHause> as in "if (x<0 and y<z OR x>0 and y>z)"? 17:36:09 *** Zuu_ [~Zuu@2.64.65.114.mobile.tre.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:45:23 <Zuu__> Does one of OR or AND operator have higher priority? 17:49:49 <frosch123> AND is higher than OR in boolean context 17:50:08 *** Zuu__ [~Zuu@2.68.248.10.mobile.tre.se] has quit [Quit: Bye] 17:50:13 *** Zuu_ [~Zuu@2.68.248.10.mobile.tre.se] has joined #openttd 17:50:17 <frosch123> in traditional computer science as well in those programming languages i know 17:50:41 *** Zuu_ [~Zuu@2.68.248.10.mobile.tre.se] has quit [] 17:50:43 *** Zuu_ [~Zuu@2.68.248.10.mobile.tre.se] has joined #openttd 17:51:12 <frosch123> don't mix bitwise with logical though 17:51:13 *** Zuu_ [~Zuu@2.68.248.10.mobile.tre.se] has quit [] 17:58:17 <z-MaTRiX> whhy not ? 17:58:30 <z-MaTRiX> red rain will come? 18:00:29 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 18:04:18 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd 18:04:42 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.170.39] has joined #openttd 18:12:13 *** B-17 [~B-17@83-238-150-233.ip.netia.com.pl] has quit [] 18:12:59 <Alberth> it will be great fun debugging such a mess 18:28:01 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-40-210.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 18:30:36 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host48-239-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 18:31:24 <Wolf01> evening 18:34:47 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc1-aztw25-2-0-cust298.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 18:35:22 * andythenorth has been...pondering GS 18:35:22 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-40-210.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:37:14 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-38-16.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 18:38:28 <andythenorth> allowing GS to change industry production multiplier - yes/no? 18:39:49 <Rubidium> directly change: no, influence the NewGRF/default behaviour: yes 18:40:00 <frosch123> changing production multiplier, opening and closing towns are the things that should work from my pov 18:40:18 <frosch123> direct change should work as well, except maybe for ecs 18:40:42 <andythenorth> Rubidium: 'influence' via what mechanic? 18:40:43 <frosch123> however, gs won't be able to prevent industries from closing or altering production theirself 18:41:23 <andythenorth> I am 100% convinced that all of the production cb is out of scope for GS 18:41:26 <Rubidium> frosch123: but then you have two competing systems influencing the production, which means stuff gets much harder to figure out when it goes wrong 18:41:41 <frosch123> andythenorth: additional parameter in cb 29 or so, which gives a hint from the script 18:41:41 <andythenorth> currently the game can come by and do that anyway 18:41:57 <andythenorth> production multiplier is exposed to the game 18:42:58 <andythenorth> why not just interpret return of 04 80 as 'do whatever game or GS tries to do' 18:43:13 <andythenorth> with GS hooked to the production change 18:43:45 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r23327 /trunk/src/lang/ (8 files): (log message trimmed) 18:43:45 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 18:43:45 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: belarusian - 16 changes by KorneySan 18:43:45 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: finnish - 15 changes by jpx_ 18:43:45 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: german - 8 changes by planetmaker 18:43:47 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: italian - 8 changes by lorenzodv 18:43:47 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: korean - 10 changes by junho2813 18:43:53 <andythenorth> my idea doesn't actually achieve what I have in mind for GS at all :P 18:43:56 <andythenorth> but it's sane 18:44:54 <frosch123> changing the distribution of goods should also work. i think cargodest does that also somewhat 18:44:56 <andythenorth> my idea is that GS should be able to (quite aggressively) force primary production up or down 18:45:16 <andythenorth> frosch123: you mean cargo distributed to stations? 18:45:41 <frosch123> the relation between "cargo distributed to stations" and "station rating" 18:45:51 <andythenorth> yup 18:45:57 <frosch123> currently it is 1:1, but with cargodest it is not afaik 18:46:09 <andythenorth> that's also quite valid for newgrf to adjust - we have that code in FIRS... 18:46:31 * andythenorth could do with some kind of diagram :P 18:47:03 <andythenorth> for example, I think it's also totally valid for a GS to adjust vehicle intro dates, or reliability, or purchase costs 18:47:08 <frosch123> anyway, both cargo callback (profit and station rating) have callback flags 18:47:18 <peter1138> cargo dest in gs? :p 18:47:27 <frosch123> so we have actually a sane way to make the gs detect, whether some newgrf wants to control that 18:47:52 <andythenorth> '[ 18:47:52 <frosch123> so, maybe we should just add some setting to control whether those callbacks are called, or whether the gs is caleld 18:48:03 <frosch123> i never liked those callbacks anyway :p 18:48:18 <andythenorth> they're not widely used afaik 18:48:22 <andythenorth> we only just added them to FIRS 18:48:53 <andythenorth> imho we're trying to do far too much stuff with FIRS 18:49:03 <frosch123> hmm, though profit calculation might actually not work for gs 18:49:20 <frosch123> it requires immediate response 18:49:30 <frosch123> remains station rating 18:50:27 <andythenorth> profit calculation or similar is actually something I would want to control for GS 18:50:29 <Rubidium> (and by proxy industry rating ;), influencing industry production) 18:51:19 <andythenorth> I want to provide spot price economy, which means localised control over cargo payments (or, as proxy, profits) 18:52:05 <Rubidium> I think cargo payments happens way too often and is so fine grained that anything you want to do blows up in some way or another 18:52:37 <andythenorth> can't be cached per town? 18:52:40 <Rubidium> e.g. you are paid for (basically) each bit of cargo individually (and least when transfers and such are in the picture) 18:53:46 <Rubidium> andythenorth: 32 cargos, 256 durations, ~4000 manhattan distances 18:54:56 <Rubidium> which is a big potential amount of variableness for something to cache often 18:55:19 <Rubidium> (like in a few hundred towns) 18:55:52 <andythenorth> hmm ok 18:55:55 <andythenorth> makes e 18:55:55 <andythenorth> 18:55:58 <andythenorth> sense 18:56:28 <Rubidium> not even talking about the effects on transfer payments (you get a lot of the first leg, but the final town says you ought to get a lot less: massive loss for the last vehicle) 18:56:40 <frosch123> hmm, gs could store some propotional factor for every cargotype at every station 18:56:52 <frosch123> so, payment on cargoage etc. is grf controlled 18:57:07 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-153-135.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 18:57:12 <frosch123> while gs can decide than one town pays twice as much for goods than others do unter the same conditionjs 18:57:31 <frosch123> hmm, transfers... :p 18:57:32 <Rubidium> frosch123: which brings us back to transfers 18:58:27 <Rubidium> making losses for no apparant reasons, except that the GS decided that it virtually paid a lot for delivering in B and near nothing for delivering in C 18:58:40 <Rubidium> although that can be "solved" when you know what C will be 18:58:59 <Rubidium> as then you always use C as the payment reference instead of the current station 18:59:05 <andythenorth> with town control, GS could stick something on the town, the profit cb can run from that 18:59:17 <andythenorth> transfers are always tricky :P 18:59:52 <andythenorth> as is the idea of 'every vehicle must make a profit' 19:00:10 <frosch123> well, gs should be able to control the highscore 19:00:51 <frosch123> there is no newgrf callback for highscores yet :p 19:01:10 <frosch123> or does firs fancy to use newhighscores? :p 19:01:23 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:01:30 <andythenorth> firs already does too much :P 19:01:35 <andythenorth> way too much 19:01:55 <Rubidium> pff, let them first do HD ;) 19:02:01 <andythenorth> currently 'industry newgrf' is synonymous with 'economy newgrf' 19:03:41 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@i59F6B3E9.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 19:04:30 *** Zuu_ [~Zuu@2.66.194.78.mobile.tre.se] has joined #openttd 19:05:10 <andythenorth> Rubidium: in the transfer case, why doesn't that problem happen when newgrf controls profit cb? 19:05:57 <Rubidium> it is possible that it happens there as well, but there is no location awareness 19:06:11 <Rubidium> so it will always happen 19:06:45 <Rubidium> and if it would happen, then people would be able to notice that they get significantly less for transporting stuff far away than to transport it locally 19:07:22 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-25-156.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 19:09:44 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.170.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:10:52 <andythenorth> ok 19:11:14 <andythenorth> so the 'problem' with spot price economy is that transport companies aren't paid that way 19:11:28 <andythenorth> they're paid by tonmile 19:11:29 <andythenorth> etc 19:11:40 <andythenorth> so maybe it's a bad idea. but it would be fun :P 19:12:05 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-38-16.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:12:32 <andythenorth> *dist is probably a better way of modelling supply and demand 19:14:06 <Zuu_> And faster than Squirrel. 19:16:04 <andythenorth> GS being able to influence *dist is attractive though 19:16:17 <andythenorth> or GS -> influencing town -> town influencing *dist 19:19:05 *** JVassie [~James@2.27.99.231] has joined #openttd 19:19:10 <andythenorth> dealing with industry stuff and GS is brain ache 19:23:16 * andythenorth is also wondering if FIRS 'economies' should be dropped as an idea 19:23:30 <andythenorth> and ceded to GS, via cb 22 19:24:53 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: what happens when I create a map w/o a goal script being present but then load the game with a server which has one? 19:25:50 <Zuu_> It just run rhe script I guess. 19:25:53 <andythenorth> tying GS to a specific newgrf version - that's all handled via savegame? 19:26:24 <Zuu_> Save/load is not yet implemented 19:26:37 <andythenorth> conceptually I mean 19:27:01 <andythenorth> this stuff could make a big difference to how (industry) newgrfs should be designed 19:27:26 <Zuu_> I answered pms question. 19:27:45 <andythenorth> :) 19:28:24 <planetmaker> Zuu_: that's what I figured so far, too. I just wonder... would stuff go haywire, if things are not initialized maybe on map creation? 19:28:58 * andythenorth is in a world of ponder 19:29:19 <andythenorth> how tightly bound / decoupled should GS be from specific maps / newgrfs / settings 19:29:20 <andythenorth> ? 19:29:51 <Zuu_> I say you will not get any such problems. The init code will run when the game loads. 19:29:56 * andythenorth wants to be able to play quite intricate challenges, bound to specific maps and newgrfs 19:30:01 <andythenorth> but maybe that's wrong 19:30:17 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I'd say that's most probably possible 19:30:23 <planetmaker> it will make for awesome scenarios 19:30:34 <Zuu_> Actually the GS might be unaware that it is a loaded game. 19:30:37 <planetmaker> but it will be _very_ time consuming to produce 19:30:43 <andythenorth> planetmaker: it could also make for some epic falling outs 19:30:56 <andythenorth> if for example, version of FIRS needed for a GS is not available on bananas 19:31:12 <planetmaker> theoretically possible 19:31:15 <andythenorth> goal scripts *must* be GPL? 19:31:38 <andythenorth> they execute code in same space as ottd, so they have to be GPL? Or they're a separate library? 19:32:07 <planetmaker> they're as separate as AIs 19:32:09 <Zuu_> AIs don't have to be GPL. 19:32:15 <andythenorth> you can place a bet on what I think GS licensing should be 19:33:29 <Zuu_> The difference is that AIs have AI libraries that can have a different license to the AI. For GS that is currently not.possible. 19:34:18 <Zuu_> So any GS that use SuperLib has to be GPL2. 19:34:44 <Terkhen> hello 19:34:48 <andythenorth> hola 19:36:11 * Alberth waves hi 19:37:48 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-153-135.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:42:23 *** Zuu_ [~Zuu@2.66.194.78.mobile.tre.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:43:45 <andythenorth> is GS fast enough to handle things like industry production code? 19:44:58 <frosch123> gs can generally not react on stuff in time 19:45:05 <frosch123> it can only do monthly stuff etc 19:45:15 <frosch123> not on delivery etc 19:48:34 <andythenorth> hmm 19:49:47 <andythenorth> that shoots my idea in the head then 19:50:05 * andythenorth thinks industry newgrfs should cede control over nearly everything to GS 19:50:45 <andythenorth> with libraries, so each GS author doesn't have to write *everything* just to get industry support 19:52:44 <andythenorth> production code, industry window text, open/close, cb28, accepted/produced cargos, production multiplier 19:53:38 <andythenorth> station name, availability dates, fund window text, fund cost, probability 19:54:15 <andythenorth> newgrf should handle cb2f (tile restrictions) and tile (graphics) callbacks, and nothing else 19:54:48 <andythenorth> is this possible though? 20:01:19 <Alberth> industry window text? fund window text? 20:01:28 <Alberth> station name? 20:01:31 <andythenorth> yup 20:01:41 <andythenorth> nearly everything 20:02:02 <andythenorth> station name is probably immaterial 20:02:06 <andythenorth> the rest should go to GS 20:02:13 <Alberth> feels somewhat insane to me :) 20:02:42 <Alberth> tile graphics callback? 20:02:48 <andythenorth> nope 20:02:58 <andythenorth> tile graphics are a self-contained aspect of the industry 20:03:00 <Alberth> oh, sorry, read wrong 20:04:05 <Alberth> why would you have coal mine accept steel? 20:04:22 <andythenorth> because you want that for your scripted scenario? 20:04:23 <Alberth> or provide diamonds or so? 20:04:30 <andythenorth> to make interesting scripted scenarios, GS author needs control over production + open / close + location + availability 20:05:12 <andythenorth> to control production, and not have madness, you also need to control cargos (per industry via cb) and that means controlling texts 20:05:43 <Alberth> controlling cargoes is madness imho 20:06:04 <andythenorth> FIRS economies would have controlled cargos 20:06:14 <andythenorth> which means your GS might explode depending on FIRS parameters 20:06:27 <andythenorth> or GS has to have intimate knowledge of newgrf parameters 20:06:31 <andythenorth> same for ECS, not FIRS specific 20:07:27 <andythenorth> I've come up with some alternative ideas... 20:07:48 <andythenorth> newgrf could always cede control of some things to default cb result 20:07:57 <andythenorth> allowing GS to control that if GS is provided 20:08:51 <andythenorth> newgrf could have parameters for use with any GS, (or specific GS) - but parameters are generally crappy 20:08:55 <Alberth> imho either you make a special combination of firs & gs, or you make a much more general gs 20:09:16 <andythenorth> +1 20:09:18 <Alberth> in the latter case, assume you have both 20:09:24 <Alberth> *former 20:10:21 <Alberth> if you want cargoes tricks, imho the newgrf should supply them, not the gs 20:12:10 * andythenorth thinks it gets a lot more interesting when GS authors can do things like: 20:12:21 <andythenorth> - "this mine will produce a lot of stuff" 20:12:36 <andythenorth> - "this steel mill will close in 1970, no matter what you do" 20:12:37 <frosch123> andythenorth: you lose any industry specific behaviour that way 20:13:03 <frosch123> the latter required the script to actually distinguish mines and steelmills 20:13:23 * andythenorth should read current GS docs :P 20:13:24 <frosch123> you get problems like cargos with vehicles :p 20:13:50 <andythenorth> so can a GS identify an industry type (by ID)? 20:15:19 * andythenorth finds the docs :) 20:15:25 <frosch123> scripts are completely decoupled from newgrfs 20:15:45 <frosch123> they are not even supposed to know cargolabels, though they can read them for 'display purposes' 20:15:56 <andythenorth> k 20:16:01 <andythenorth> this helps 20:16:29 * andythenorth has other ideas 20:17:15 <andythenorth> how 'done' is town control? I've seen commits for it, but I don't trust my assumptions 20:17:41 <frosch123> newgrf town control? or gs town control? 20:17:56 <andythenorth> newgrf - we got stuck on persistent storage question? Or is that solved? 20:18:09 <frosch123> that's the only part that was implemented :p 20:18:15 <andythenorth> ok 20:18:18 <frosch123> though you cannot write to storage of other grfs 20:18:25 <frosch123> (which is not too limiting) 20:18:26 <andythenorth> could GS write to storage? 20:18:56 <andythenorth> or have it's own storage that grfs can read 20:19:37 <frosch123> "could"? the question is rather whether that would be "good" at all 20:19:56 <andythenorth> maybe I explain my aim, rather than guessing implementations :P 20:20:17 <andythenorth> so it seems best that industries are pretty much a black box to GS? 20:20:32 <andythenorth> i.e. GS can't know much about the internals of an industry, as it's very decoupled 20:21:14 <andythenorth> that rules out nearly everything where a GS might touch an industry 20:21:39 <andythenorth> even cb 28 and such might be unwise if GS doesn't know about industry 20:21:52 <andythenorth> but industry and GS could communicate predictably using town 20:22:10 <andythenorth> if industry newgrf had a spec for how it will behave according to certain town storage values 20:22:23 <andythenorth> GS could produce predictable and interesting results 20:22:50 <andythenorth> 'town' is probably a fine-grained enough level of detail for gameplay 20:25:34 <andythenorth> there would be some gaps 20:26:04 <andythenorth> like the GS might be trying to control number of coal mines in a town (based on knowing about a specific newgrf), but that still wouldn't be possible 20:26:47 <andythenorth> but the industry could write the number of coal mines to town storage when cb 28 runs 20:27:19 <andythenorth> the industry could also do a lot of the other interesting stuff, like store cargo delivered etc 20:27:26 <andythenorth> this assumes storage isn't limited :P 20:27:32 <Terkhen> andythenorth: GS should not have access to the standard town / industry storage... but you could add special storages with a specific, fixed format and meaning to enable communication between NewGRFs and GS 20:27:57 <andythenorth> it's an appealing idea 20:29:02 <Terkhen> the default NewGRF storages have no fixed format, therefore all GS would need specific support for each NewGRF 20:29:05 <Terkhen> that would be madness :) 20:29:20 <andythenorth> no more madness than cargo classes 20:29:21 <andythenorth> oh 20:29:22 <andythenorth> wait :P 20:29:50 <Terkhen> a lot more actually ;) 20:29:50 <andythenorth> is what I'm describing asynchronous signalling? 20:30:22 <andythenorth> seems like there would separate GS and newgrf storage for each newgrf 20:30:40 <andythenorth> each can read but not write to the others 20:30:45 <andythenorth> other's 20:31:14 * andythenorth ponders 20:31:56 <andythenorth> ha: http://eaipatterns.com/ramblings/18_starbucks.html 20:34:32 <andythenorth> rather than GS being able to control industries, it can leave hints behind, and if the hint is in the right place, the industry will do something predictable with it 20:34:45 <z-MaTRiX> hey 20:34:47 <andythenorth> what each newgrf does is up to the newgrf authors 20:35:17 <andythenorth> any intricate GS though will be tightly bound to a single industry newgrf (nothing else makes sense) 20:35:35 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.173.169] has joined #openttd 20:41:44 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@i59F6B3E9.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:44:19 <andythenorth> can we add 'monologue by andythenorth' to the topic please? 20:44:25 <andythenorth> :) 20:48:34 <guru3_> anyone know anything about 32bpp? 20:48:38 *** guru3_ is now known as guru3 20:53:32 <planetmaker> it's 4x as much memory as 8bpp ;-) 20:56:59 <andythenorth> Terkhen: there would be one town storage for each newgrf? 21:07:20 <frosch123> yes 21:07:28 <frosch123> you can read the storages of other grfs 21:08:33 <andythenorth> I had an idea for a scheme with multiple storages per newgrf 21:08:45 <andythenorth> with the offsets corresponding to industry or cargo IDs :P 21:08:55 <andythenorth> for convenience :P 21:13:07 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 21:21:43 *** DDR [~chatzilla@142.179.78.88] has joined #openttd 21:23:52 <Terkhen> andythenorth: each NewGRF has write access to a single town persistent storage, and has read access to all of them 21:24:12 * andythenorth should stop inventing complex schemes :P 21:24:24 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:24:34 <andythenorth> Terkhen: did you move yet? 21:27:56 <Terkhen> yes :) 21:28:06 <andythenorth> ¿que tal 21:29:24 <Terkhen> fine, I'm still getting accustomed, everything is different at a big city :P 21:31:45 <Belugas> yeah, no more sheep running around :) 21:31:49 <Belugas> hem... 21:31:51 * Belugas runs off 21:31:59 <Terkhen> my hometown is not that small :P 21:32:37 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: atm scripts are not stored with the savegame, and are forced loaded upon game start; warning: loading a savegame gives an unwanted initial delay in the setup of the script 21:32:52 <Belugas> hehehe joking, Terkhen 21:33:16 <Terkhen> ;) 21:46:16 <planetmaker> hm, thx, TrueBrain 21:47:12 <TrueBrain> it is best to start a newgame atm :) 21:47:54 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-095-033-157-191.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 21:47:55 <andythenorth> hmm 21:47:57 <andythenorth> HEQS http://www1.trekkerweb.nl/nl/25251377-%5Blinkpage_machines%5D.html?location=321829656338876,10646295,true 21:50:22 *** APTX [APTX@89-78-217-144.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:51:22 <andythenorth> http://www.roadtransport.com/blogs/big-lorry-blog/BLB3.jpg 21:51:59 *** LordAro [5684195e@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 21:52:23 <andythenorth> http://www.schwertransportwelt.de/Feind.JPG 21:53:48 <andythenorth> http://offroadvehicle.ru/AZBUCAR/Hover%20Truck/Hovertrik.jpg 21:56:11 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@193.52.24.37] has joined #openttd 21:58:30 *** APTX [APTX@89-78-217-144.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #openttd 21:59:17 <appe> :o 22:07:32 <andythenorth> dunno what use those vehicles would be :P 22:07:40 <andythenorth> zero gameplay advantage ;) 22:07:44 <planetmaker> he 22:08:03 <peter1138> the last one looks ... well... 22:08:32 <peter1138> something from the 50s, in a "this is what the future will look like" way 22:08:45 <andythenorth> ...like a good case for roadtypes? 22:08:46 <Terkhen> good night 22:09:27 <andythenorth> bye Terkhen 22:09:35 <andythenorth> the 50s future looked like this :D http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=letourneau+landtrain&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1276&bih=668&sei=iBLQTpTBOtPo8QOtxo2jBA 22:10:02 <peter1138> nice 22:11:55 <andythenorth> I was going to add that to heqs 22:12:02 <andythenorth> but really....pointless :P 22:15:14 <andythenorth> can a GS build new objects? 22:17:12 <andythenorth> nvm 22:17:52 <andythenorth> so...a GS could open / close certain numbers of industries in a town 22:18:02 <andythenorth> using special one tile industries 22:18:04 <Xaroth> eventually 22:18:12 <Xaroth> well, depends 22:18:21 <andythenorth> 'proper' industries could then use industry count in the town as a var to control behaviour 22:18:35 <andythenorth> so basically using the map as storage to communicate between GS and industry 22:19:29 <andythenorth> the GS could also communicate directly with a specific industry by building 'special' industry types on neighbouring tiles, and the industry checking those 22:19:59 <andythenorth> GS would need to be able to use magic bulldozer in that second case 22:20:36 <andythenorth> GS could also raise and lower land around an industry as a means of storing values 22:20:48 <Xaroth> why store values? 22:20:59 <andythenorth> to allow GS to control industry 22:20:59 <Xaroth> I mean.. GS doesn't need to raise/lower to store anything :P 22:21:46 <Xaroth> or it can call a specific callback? 22:22:13 <Xaroth> I'm not really a fan of using hack-ish workarounds when you can do it properly 22:22:16 <andythenorth> industry newgrf could define behaviour, like 'raise one corner of tile next to N tile of industry for production multiplier 8' or such 22:22:35 <Xaroth> but why? 22:22:38 <andythenorth> lower 3 corners of N tile to close industry 22:22:40 <Xaroth> why interact with the game 22:22:47 <Xaroth> if you can interact directly? 22:23:50 <Xaroth> that's like placing a pink hippo in your neighbours garden to inform them their dog was barking again last night 22:23:59 <andythenorth> :) 22:24:00 <Xaroth> sure, with some magic sekrit language they'd understand 22:24:11 <Xaroth> but.. what's wrong with going 'yo, dog was barking again last night' 22:24:15 <Xaroth> bro. 22:24:43 * andythenorth visits newgrf spec 22:24:56 * andythenorth wonders what else towns can do 22:25:27 <andythenorth> hmm, varaction 2 is a bit limited wrt towns 22:26:20 <andythenorth> encoding information via the slope bits would be best 22:27:26 <andythenorth> although I also like the idea of constructing specific industries 22:27:58 <andythenorth> var 68 can use layout numbers 22:28:08 <andythenorth> that's a lot of potential data.... 22:29:18 <Xaroth> it all sounds wonderful and stuff, but I still don't see the point in doing visual (as minimal as they be) changes ingame, to allow for backend communication 22:29:29 * andythenorth ponders....an industry can have 255 layouts 22:29:49 <andythenorth> but it would probably make more sense to treat the number as a bitmask 22:30:04 <andythenorth> which gives...rather fewer values 22:31:08 *** TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has quit [Quit: Poof] 22:31:44 <andythenorth> Xaroth: the aim would be to allow GS to control industries 22:31:49 <andythenorth> via an API 22:32:11 <frosch123> Xaroth: luckily andy's set are all gpl. so if the ruins them, we can branch off :p 22:32:23 <Xaroth> frosch123: thank fook for that :P 22:32:34 <andythenorth> frosch123: you don't like my idea of communicating via stuff on the map? :P 22:32:49 <Xaroth> andythenorth: but surely you must see the insanity of using top-level stuff to communicate low-level information? 22:33:24 <andythenorth> not really :) 22:33:26 <andythenorth> it could be fun 22:33:33 <Xaroth> then you need a sanitycheck :P 22:33:46 <andythenorth> frosch123: does var 68 allow both layout *and* town check? 22:33:52 <andythenorth> spec implies it does 22:34:31 <andythenorth> hmm 22:34:41 <andythenorth> 64 industry types are not enough for this scheme 22:34:47 <andythenorth> rather more would be needed 22:35:32 <andythenorth> perhaps 1024 22:35:57 <frosch123> andythenorth: i would read it like that, yes 22:35:59 <andythenorth> for a set with 64 'real' types, that gives 15 bytes of storage per industry type 22:36:16 <andythenorth> the 'storage' industries could look like houses or such 22:36:43 <frosch123> something different 22:36:58 <andythenorth> rainbows? 22:37:03 <andythenorth> hellmouths? 22:37:04 <frosch123> on the front page of the specswiki: i keep on clicking the the features in the wrong tables 22:37:14 <frosch123> so i get to action2 instead of varaction2 22:37:37 <andythenorth> oh :( 22:37:53 <frosch123> is it a good idea to add a huge "0", "2", "VA", "R" and "3" to the tables 22:37:57 <frosch123> (i.e. spanning 4 rows) 22:38:09 <andythenorth> frosch123: looks like a layout issue to me 22:38:12 <frosch123> or is it only me who misclcks? 22:38:24 <andythenorth> the gap between table and title is the same for preceeding and following 22:38:50 <andythenorth> i.e. there should be a larger gap between a table and the following title 22:39:03 * andythenorth tests 22:39:42 <andythenorth> gah 22:39:46 <andythenorth> wiki formatting :( 22:39:48 <frosch123> i think empty rows would make it look weird 22:40:10 <andythenorth> I can only fix it with an empty list bullet 22:40:15 <andythenorth> no <br /> 22:40:21 <andythenorth> wiki formatting is remarkably stupid 22:40:36 <andythenorth> in the quest to make it easy for idiots, they made it harder for normal people 22:40:40 <planetmaker> frosch123: it's not only you who mis-clicks 22:40:42 <frosch123> just add an empty line? 22:40:59 <andythenorth> wiki formatting allows an empty line? which magic characters do I press :P 22:41:21 <planetmaker> good night 22:41:37 <andythenorth> bye planetmaker 22:42:28 <andythenorth> hmm 22:42:30 * andythenorth eats words 22:42:38 <andythenorth> <br /> is not only allowed, but recommended :P 22:42:46 <andythenorth> frosch123: try now 22:43:01 <andythenorth> might help, might not 22:44:54 <andythenorth> I only added one <br /> 22:45:13 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 22:45:17 *** Adambean [~AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing] 22:47:39 <Mazur> That sounds utterly stupid, andythenorth, are you sure? 22:47:53 <Mazur> <br> is a thing in and of itself, begin and end in one. 22:48:23 <andythenorth> as a tag? 22:48:24 <Mazur> Or it is in HTML. 22:48:28 <Mazur> Yes. 22:48:29 <andythenorth> I mean I just added it once 22:49:05 <andythenorth> mediawiki prefers xhtml 22:49:09 <andythenorth> hence / 22:49:10 <Mazur> <BR> is a break in a line, bypassing automatic formatting. 22:49:21 <andythenorth> I'm just surprised it works at all 22:49:40 <Mazur> So am I. 22:50:36 <Mazur> It might simply have been added to pacify the kind of people who use Macro$hit products and take every tag needs an end-tag too literally.] 22:50:48 <andythenorth> Mazur: that's a bit wrong 22:50:51 <andythenorth> for various reasons 22:51:02 <andythenorth> :) 22:51:20 <Mazur> Only one bit? I must be sickening or something. 22:51:22 <andythenorth> but anyway, I'm surprised that mediawiki respects any html / xhtml at al 22:51:24 <frosch123> andythenorth: the empty line looks weird, but i like the bold number in a separate column :) 22:51:33 <andythenorth> frosch123: I was going to revert my change 22:51:36 <andythenorth> it was only a test 22:51:39 <frosch123> reload 22:51:44 <frosch123> i reverted it already :p 22:51:50 <andythenorth> good work 22:52:05 <andythenorth> hmm 22:52:06 <andythenorth> ok 22:52:18 <andythenorth> makes sense 22:52:21 <Xaroth> Mazur: obviously you missed out on the xml spec? 22:52:59 <Xaroth> a <br /> is just a br element with no content 22:53:07 <frosch123> what? who added a link to the nml-specs in the "game mechanics" section? 22:53:28 <andythenorth> someone well meaning? 22:53:38 <andythenorth> but perhaps mistaken? 22:53:56 <Xaroth> it's also the same reason you should close an img tag, and a hr, and several others 22:53:57 <frosch123> planetmaker did, but i cannot ask him anymore whether he really wanted it in that place 22:54:11 <frosch123> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/index.php?title=Main_Page&diff=2269&oldid=2125 22:54:11 <Mazur> Xaroth, yep, never laid eyes on it, perhaps never will. 22:54:57 <andythenorth> Xaroth: try closing an <a name="foo"/> :P 22:55:02 <andythenorth> for explodey results 22:55:05 <planetmaker> frosch123: looks stupid there. Feel free to revert. ;-) 22:55:21 <Xaroth> andythenorth: that doesn't work, the <a> isn't 'empty' 22:55:28 <andythenorth> I always try it for a named anchor 22:55:32 <andythenorth> with explodey results 22:55:44 <Xaroth> you anchor to a piece of content 22:55:49 <Xaroth> so you should include content in it. 22:55:52 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:55:54 <andythenorth> <form /> would also be witty :P 22:56:03 <peter1138> iirc those anchers are deprecated now 22:56:10 *** APTX [APTX@89-78-217-144.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:56:11 *** APTX [APTX@89-78-217-144.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #openttd 22:56:20 <andythenorth> there's probably a specific html 5 tag for them :P 22:56:22 <andythenorth> what larks 22:56:33 <andythenorth> 'everything must be semantically perfect' 22:56:50 <Xaroth> no 22:56:52 <peter1138> html 5, the one where they removed the xml-ness because muppets found it too hard 22:57:03 <Xaroth> html 5 looks at id=<x> 22:57:08 <Xaroth> THEN at name=<x> 22:57:12 <peter1138> yeah 22:57:13 <andythenorth> interesting 22:57:20 <Xaroth> so <div id="foo" > is linkable by page.html#foo 22:57:29 <andythenorth> that is interesting 22:57:36 <Xaroth> that's been around for ages :P 22:57:52 * andythenorth lives in a world where IE 6 support still matters 22:58:01 <peter1138> i always end up forgetting that input fields need name= instead of id= 22:58:09 <peter1138> ie6 :( 22:58:11 <Xaroth> peter1138: same 22:58:12 <andythenorth> we don't move to new standards quickly 22:58:15 <andythenorth> :( 22:59:07 <andythenorth> html 5 seems to be spawning tags merrily from my limited knowledge of it 22:59:48 <Xaroth> and iirc, IE6 might even support the id=foo method. 23:00:05 <Xaroth> don't care though, I'm long glad I don't have to do ie-compatible crap :P 23:00:18 * andythenorth will try it next time 23:00:24 <andythenorth> named anchors are odd 23:00:31 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r23328 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Change: Make the viewport vehicle position hash cover the same area. 23:00:52 <andythenorth> hmm 23:00:57 <andythenorth> safari does it 23:01:07 * andythenorth has finally learnt something new today :) 23:01:26 <andythenorth> also that means that named anchors could collide with ids 23:01:33 <andythenorth> so one more reason to not use them 23:02:25 <andythenorth> Xaroth: using the ottd map for industry communication seems no more insane to me than ajax apps which use lists with display:none as data storage :P 23:02:29 <andythenorth> which I have seen done 23:04:10 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r23329 /trunk/src/ (viewport.cpp viewport_func.h): -Fix (r23316): Scale child sprite pixel offsets unless told not to. Fixes lifts and industry graphics. 23:04:45 <peter1138> named anchors could collide with named anchors 23:04:51 <peter1138> seeing as name="" isn't unique 23:05:09 <andythenorth> named anchors suck 23:05:15 <Xaroth> andythenorth: sometimes you can combine that with compatibility for javascript-less clients 23:05:16 <andythenorth> I'm going to war with them on monda 23:05:47 <andythenorth> +y 23:06:15 <Xaroth> like a filtered display, for non-js clients they just see the entire list, where javascript-enabled clients can apply filters to only see a subset of the items 23:06:24 <Xaroth> elegant, yet effective 23:06:27 <andythenorth> yeah it makes sense for some cases 23:06:49 <Xaroth> by all means, in >50% of the cases you see it they should have done with a js var 23:06:57 <andythenorth> I've seen it used for things that would make more sense to push into an array or such 23:07:06 <andythenorth> instead of creating spurious DOM elements 23:07:42 <andythenorth> keeping state in the GUI weirds me out in the first place; keeping it in the actual markup seems insane 23:08:35 <andythenorth> and yes, my suggestions about industry communication are not entirely serious :P 23:09:33 <andythenorth> also 23:09:35 <andythenorth> bedtime 23:09:49 <andythenorth> good night 23:09:50 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc1-aztw25-2-0-cust298.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 23:23:55 <Eddi|zuHause> any evil GS guru around? need a lab animal for www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/delaunay.nut (beware of syntax errors etc. i have not actually executed this code) 23:24:40 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@193.52.24.37] has quit [Quit: zzzzz] 23:31:38 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [] 23:34:10 <frosch123> there is at least one ai doing that 23:34:14 <frosch123> so, compare the code :p 23:34:45 *** snack2 [~nn@dsl-prvbrasgw1-fe05dc00-37.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 23:38:11 <Eddi|zuHause> you do know that comparing two programs is an undecidable problem? :) 23:39:12 <Eddi|zuHause> and i'm sure my program is hopelessly wrong 23:42:24 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-25-156.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:47:09 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip3.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 23:49:35 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:49:56 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd