Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:00:17 <Aali> you must have some long routes 00:00:24 <Afdal> :o 00:00:30 <Aali> could solve that with waypoints I guess 00:00:36 <Afdal> How so? 00:00:37 <Aali> its a bit fiddly though 00:00:41 *** KenjiE20 [kenjie20@free.blinkenshell.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:00:54 <Aali> station -> service -> waypoint -> service etc.. -> station 00:01:20 <Afdal> then how is that any different 00:01:27 <Afdal> than just letting them service on their own 00:01:33 <Afdal> when you select so many depots manually 00:01:51 <Yexo> if you give your trains a service order the distance doesn't matter 00:01:52 <michi_cc> Service orders do not care about the tile limit. 00:02:02 <Afdal> huh 00:02:17 <glx> an the train goes to service only where you want 00:02:23 <glx> *and 00:02:42 <Afdal> yeah and then when it passes that spot you wanted it to service, because it didn't need to at that time 00:02:51 <Afdal> you can end up with lower reliability 00:03:04 <Yexo> the same happens already, I don't see your point? 00:03:04 <Afdal> if you don't allow it to service at other depots too 00:03:14 <Afdal> Exactly, I don't see the point of servicing orders 00:03:15 <Yexo> yes, hence the waypoints and allowing it to service at other depots 00:03:30 <Afdal> Again, which is pretty much the same as just letting it service manually 00:03:40 <Afdal> If you're going to select a bunch of other depots 00:03:49 <Yexo> except that letting them service automatically you have a limit of tiles the depot can be away from your mainline 00:03:54 <Afdal> Oh I see what you mean 00:03:56 <Afdal> hmm 00:03:56 <glx> just use "go to nearest" 00:03:58 <Yexo> with service at depot orders you can circumvent that limit 00:04:07 <Afdal> aahh 00:04:15 <glx> no need to click on every depot 00:04:24 <Afdal> Well, that could be awfully tedious with big tracks 00:04:28 <Yexo> yes 00:04:31 <Afdal> But I guess you only need to do it once 00:04:35 <Yexo> but trains don't need to service that often 00:04:44 <Afdal> setting up the order list, I mean 00:04:53 <Yexo> I mean, you don't need a depot every 20 tiles 00:04:58 <glx> and use shared orders too :) 00:05:02 <Afdal> ofc 00:05:16 <Yexo> or just play without breakdowns and without servicing :p 00:05:19 <Afdal> Do you really need waypoints? 00:05:23 <Afdal> I don't see how that would help 00:05:26 <Aali> default breakdowns are kind-of a big deal though :) 00:05:33 <Afdal> oh u 00:05:38 <Aali> never managed to go beyond ~100 trains with them 00:05:44 <Afdal> I like the extra challenge servicing brings to the game 00:05:49 <Yexo> the "service" orders are evaluated at the time the train leaves the station 00:05:53 <Aali> for me its unbearable 00:05:54 <Afdal> Gotta figure out ways to make the best depots, like now :3 00:06:10 <Afdal> Well the "normal" breakdown rate is horrendous, true 00:06:11 <Aali> the improved breakdowns patch made it sane 00:06:18 <Aali> well, a bit more sane anyway 00:06:18 <Afdal> I don't find Reduced that big a deal though 00:06:44 <Afdal> Are you guys ever planning on adding that patch to OpenTTD? 00:06:50 <Afdal> as an advanced setting? 00:07:02 <Afdal> I've never played with a patch before 00:07:32 <Aali> it was pretty dead back when I used it.. which was like.. years ago 00:07:40 <Afdal> :( 00:07:43 <Aali> so no, I dont think that particular patch has any chance 00:07:48 *** DDR [~chatzilla@142.179.78.88] has joined #openttd 00:08:21 <Afdal> What was whoever saying about waypoints in addition to the goto depot order now? 00:08:26 <Afdal> Why would you need waypoints? 00:08:49 <Afdal> Yexo the "service" orders are evaluated at the time the train leaves the station 00:08:55 <Afdal> Oh, does that apply to waypoints too 00:09:27 <FLHerne> Yes. 00:09:40 <Afdal> But wait, what you end up doing with service orders then 00:09:48 <Afdal> is spacing out the possible check 00:10:10 <Afdal> so it's possible for it to be less efficient, even though the check will always occur 00:10:18 <FLHerne> Can anyone suggest any compile options to cut CPU load ingame? 00:10:29 <Afdal> I guess you could just put the waypoints directly before the depot splits 00:10:34 <Afdal> that would work 00:10:52 *** Progman [~progman@p57A18E48.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:11:05 <FLHerne> This 133MHz processor is irritating, and the game lags a bit... 00:11:54 <glx> don't use ships 00:13:32 <Afdal> only problem with this fix is you can't put waypoints on diagonal track 00:13:56 <FLHerne> Is that a compile option? I thought there was a setting in the .cfg for that? 00:15:29 <FLHerne> i.e. max ships = 0 or however it's phrased 00:16:05 <michi_cc> It is a setting for the person sitting in front of the keyboard. 00:16:55 <FLHerne> I am sitting in front of the keyboard, so that's OK 00:17:08 <michi_cc> It means, just don't build any. 00:17:51 *** Snail_ [~jacopocol@CPE0013f7fc9e20-CM0013f7fc9e1c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #openttd 00:18:13 <FLHerne> I won't... 00:18:18 <michi_cc> I don't know what OS/hardware you use, but you could test whether the 8bpp-optimized or the 32bpp-optimized blitter is faster (32bpp-anim will very likly be the slowest). 00:19:14 <FLHerne> 8bpp is faster, I tried that on my last build 00:19:52 <FLHerne> This time I'm building without networking or sound support, to try and get a couple more FPS 00:20:17 <FLHerne> I was just wondering what else I could disable :-) 00:21:18 <michi_cc> Networking will likely have no effect, and there's no need to disable sound support, just pass '-s null' and '-m null' on the command line to get the 'do nothing' sound and music driver. 00:22:50 <FLHerne> OK, thanks 00:24:40 <FLHerne> I'll start, compiling then, hopefully it'll finish before I get up...took about 6 hrs last time... 00:25:58 <Afdal> So does filling your track with path signals 00:26:03 <Afdal> Eat up more CPU 00:26:15 <Afdal> Because trains are constantly checking if they have to service? 00:26:21 <Snail_> hi, I have a question probably for OTTD developers 00:26:51 <Snail_> in the "railtypes" feature, when drawing tunnels, the tunnel head is always the original one 00:27:33 <Snail_> this keeps compatibility with different landscapes, but limits the newGRF authors as to drawing different tunnel entrances across different types 00:28:20 <Snail_> would it be possible to add an option to replace the original tunnel head with a custom sprite provided by the railtype newGRF? of course, this custom sprite would need to be compatible with the landscapes... 00:29:36 *** Adambean [~AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing] 00:29:40 <Afdal> Actually... If a path signal always ensures a depot check anyway, how is putting maintenance in orders along with waypoints any different? 00:30:44 <michi_cc> Snail_: Just Action A the original tunnel sprite. It is not possible for a NewGRF to query the base set in use though. 00:31:37 <Snail_> michi_cc: you mean it's not possible for a newGRF to figure out which landscape the game is in? 00:33:00 <JVassie_> bonjour Snail :D 00:33:11 <michi_cc> You can query for temperate/arctic/tropical etc, but not for the base set. If you could, you'd have an instant desync if both players with the original base set and players with OpenGFX join the same multiplayer game. 00:34:01 <Snail_> salut jvassie ;) 00:34:49 <Snail_> I see... so if I decided to "action A" the original tunnel sprite with a different one based on the base set, someone playing with OpenGFX would see that sprite being different from the rest of the landscape? 00:35:24 <michi_cc> Yes. And GRF parameters work for single player, but still fail for multiplayer. 00:35:54 <michi_cc> All that is the reason why you can't provide a custom tunnel sprite in the railtype definition. 00:36:57 <Afdal> If a path signal always ensures a depot check anyway, how is putting maintenance in orders along with waypoints any different? Doesn't seem to make any difference, just tested it on an old save game. 00:37:31 <michi_cc> Maintenance orders will always find the depot, regardless of the length of the track leading to thedepot. 00:37:50 <Afdal> I see 00:38:01 <Afdal> So maybe that would be better if you were using 8 tile+ length trains 00:38:12 <Afdal> But if you're not it really makes no difference 00:39:06 <Afdal> err not "maybe", it would be 00:39:45 <Snail_> hmm 00:40:02 <Afdal> So does filling your track with path signals over block signals eat up more CPU because trains are constantly performing depot checks?? 00:40:15 <Snail_> michi_cc: so I can't provide a custom tunnel sprite in the railtype definition, but I can still change it through action A, right? so what's the difference? 00:40:39 <michi_cc> You get *one* custom sprite, not one per railtype. 00:41:21 <Snail_> ohh, I see 00:41:31 <Snail_> all the railtypes will have the same then 00:42:26 <michi_cc> But even with Action A, as soon as your sprite contains even a bit of grass it will always be a mismatch for about half the players (depending on which base set's grass you take). 00:43:00 <Snail_> ok... 00:43:41 <Snail_> how about making tunnel entrances as sprites that only contain the entrance and no landscape? a little bit like the track sprites, which contain only the tracks and the ballast underneath, but no landscape... 00:44:38 <michi_cc> The only sane way IMHO is to introduce a parameter for the tunnel sprite that by default (for multiplayer compatibility) is set to "use base set tunnel sprite". 00:44:38 *** FLHerne [~francis@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:45:11 <michi_cc> The grass would overlap with the tracks and the train because you'd need to know where to cut a "hole" into the sprite. 00:46:42 <Snail_> but the hole could remain the default one in terms of size... so OTTD would still know where to cut 00:47:51 <Snail_> re. the parameter, yes I agree, but still it would be awkward to draw a custom tunnel head that would suit both XIXth century NG rails and modern TGV tracks 00:50:11 *** JVassie_ [~James@2.30.128.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:50:12 *** JVassie_ [~James@2.30.128.207] has joined #openttd 00:51:33 <michi_cc> Someone⢠would need to draw all needed sprites for the original base set. 00:52:03 <michi_cc> (I.e. all landscape types in all orientations.) 00:53:33 <Snail_> you mean if one wanted to create custom tunnel heads? 00:53:59 <Snail_> as a matter of fact I already drew some, for my NG tracks 00:55:12 <Afdal> Does filling your track with path signals over block signals eat up more CPU because trains are constantly performing depot checks? 01:00:01 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@D5225594.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:00:05 <michi_cc> Snail_: I mean grass sprites with a fitting hole. 01:00:12 <Afdal> Last question I swear :3 01:01:12 <michi_cc> Afdal: The depot check is only expensive if it decides to search for a depot. As long as the train does not need servicing, it will be very quick. 01:01:32 <Afdal> ah, but it will use more CPU then won't it 01:01:41 <Afdal> just less if you have your depots spaced properly 01:01:53 <Afdal> err, less the less space you have between them 01:03:20 <Snail_> but the grass could be that of the default sprite, on which the new head would be the overlay... 01:03:36 <planetmaker> that's difficult. 01:03:49 <planetmaker> tunnel heads most likely have different slopes than the tile slopes 01:03:52 <Snail_> just like in the normal tracks... the grass would be around the tunnel head, but the tunnel head itself would be replaced 01:04:00 <planetmaker> just look at the ttd tunnels - they have grass on top 01:04:13 <planetmaker> thus it looks awkward then, too 01:04:28 <michi_cc> I doubt you can even measure the extra check for the no service case. And do remember that only a very limited amount of tiles is searched for a depot, so a depot search is still cheap in comparison to a full pathfind at a junction tile. 01:04:53 <Snail_> yes, perhaps we could restrict such an overlay to approximately follow the original head. I could live with that 01:05:04 <michi_cc> Snail_: It would need grass tiles with a proper transparent area, otherwise the grass would overlap the vehicles. 01:05:31 <Afdal> Yeah but if a train needs to service 01:05:34 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-016-188.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:05:47 <Afdal> It's going to check every 2 tiles for a depot when path signals 01:05:55 <Afdal> with* 01:06:12 <Afdal> and with a lot of trains and a lot of track, that could add up 01:07:07 <planetmaker> thus it would need terrain sprites for all 4 slopes, one for each of the track sides. Thus two per each of the slopes and terrain type. For both base sets 01:07:09 <michi_cc> So more or less a tile that is all grass and has the same shape and outline as the default tunnel portal. If a set wants to provide a tunnel portal wider on the inside, it would have to hide the extra grass with some kind of darkness. 01:07:11 <planetmaker> then it *might* work 01:07:49 <Snail_> planetmaker: that would be great 01:08:00 <planetmaker> well. Go ahead and create those sprites 01:08:05 <planetmaker> would be a first step ;-) 01:08:18 <planetmaker> Please do for both basesets 01:08:23 <michi_cc> Or maybe where the portal hole is a bit bigger, under the assumption that no one would like to draw a tunnel portal just a pixel "thick". 01:08:30 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-011-135.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 01:09:02 <planetmaker> still, the problem is where to place the hole 01:09:11 <Snail_> ok :) 01:09:15 <planetmaker> now the entry portal can be anywhere on the tile 01:09:21 <Snail_> I already have a set of custom tunnelheads 01:09:21 *** Elukka [~Elukka@78-27-84-248.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 01:09:26 <Snail_> you want me to PM it to you? 01:09:31 <planetmaker> Snail_: not custom tunnel heads 01:09:35 <planetmaker> the grass sprites 01:09:37 <planetmaker> for the sides 01:09:59 <planetmaker> where stuff can be overlayed onto 01:10:34 <Snail_> oh, oko 01:10:38 <Snail_> ok 01:10:49 <planetmaker> I wonder though... how much it needs on the top side of the slopes... 01:10:54 <planetmaker> or whether at all 01:10:58 <michi_cc> planetmaker: Totally arbitrary tunnel portals wouldn't work, graphics artists would just have to draw sprites that fit onto the default hole (which would roughly the shape and size of the default hole). 01:11:32 <planetmaker> hm.... I'd make that bigger by quite a bit 01:11:35 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:12:49 <michi_cc> Some, but a bigger hole means the portal itself has to be more massive as well. 01:13:15 <planetmaker> hm... would it work to always draw the default background, then a custom background on top, then the train, the default top and then a custom top? 01:13:28 <planetmaker> that'd not allow bigger portals, though 01:13:39 <planetmaker> thus it needs a bigger portal 01:14:01 <michi_cc> Oh, and the tunnel sprite actually consists of two parts, one drawn behind and one drawn over the vehicle sprite (Base set sprites 2365 and following). 01:14:23 <planetmaker> yes, of course 01:14:47 <planetmaker> a back where the track and the train is drawn onto. And then overpainted by the front 01:15:15 <planetmaker> where the front must include the top 01:15:50 <michi_cc> planetmaker: The default tunnel sprites have shading that suggests the roundness of the tunnel tube, so that wouldn't really work as a base sprite. 01:16:12 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:17:02 <planetmaker> I know. And they even have no grass. Depending on track type 01:18:25 <michi_cc> Anyway, that results in 48 sprites per base set to be drawn. Get to work, someone⢠:) 01:18:30 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 01:18:34 <planetmaker> Thus what it needs is like the untouched part of the tunnel sprites 01:18:43 <planetmaker> And the player needs to supply the additional back part and the additional front / top part 01:19:14 <planetmaker> @calc 2 * 4 * (4+2) 01:19:14 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 48 01:19:17 <planetmaker> yup :-) 01:19:34 <planetmaker> but I see no other way to implement it otherwise 01:19:52 <planetmaker> and it's not like it's not feasible. But someone [TM] 01:20:00 <Snail_> sorry was afk 01:21:11 <Snail_> planetmaker: I'm willing to give it a try if you need "someone" to draw ;) 01:21:21 <Snail_> I can use the sprites I already drew as base 01:21:47 <Snail_> do I need to break them in a certain way? or can I just send you the final result and you can try and break it up? 01:22:06 <planetmaker> Snail_: mind, it needs those sprite parts which are NOT the tunnel of the tunnel tile 01:22:25 <planetmaker> and yes, I'll need the two parts separately. I don't need finished tunnels 01:22:55 <planetmaker> as that breaking up is IMHO the hard part. After all I don't want new tunnels. But the default tunnels properly split up into parts that the actual portal can be replaced by a custom one 01:23:35 <planetmaker> i.e.: no custom portals. But the existing tunnels broken into "back grass", "portal" and "front + top grass" 01:23:44 <planetmaker> hm... no, "front grass" 01:23:53 <planetmaker> portal was extra and includes top grass 01:25:24 <Snail_> oh I see 01:25:59 <planetmaker> let me best make a dirty example... 01:26:02 <Snail_> you only need the default parts, so that a custom portal can later replace the default one 01:26:06 <Afdal> also 01:26:15 <Afdal> You guys know your wiki is kinda messed up right now, right? 01:26:25 <Afdal> It hasn't been displaying pages properly the last several days 01:26:26 <planetmaker> yes. For this to work we first need to change the default to a way that it can be modified 01:26:49 <planetmaker> Afdal: works for me. 01:26:58 <Afdal> <.< 01:27:03 <planetmaker> so: no, I don't know nor experience troubles 01:27:08 <Afdal> Well I'm not blocking any ads or scripts 01:27:21 <Afdal> And openttd's wiki is the only wiki I go to that's not displaying correctly 01:27:22 <planetmaker> there are no ads except a link to our sponsor 01:28:03 <Snail_> planetmaker: ok. Will it work if I take a screenshot from a game and then split up the tunnel from there? 01:28:05 <Afdal> oh wait a second 01:28:09 <michi_cc> I guess you ned something like http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/patches/tunnel.png 01:28:12 <Afdal> disabling Adblock fixed it 01:28:22 <Afdal> I wonder what I'm blocking 01:28:50 <Afdal> No wait, it fixed itself just now 01:28:53 <Afdal> without my doing anything 01:28:54 <michi_cc> Snail_: Decode trg1r.grf and look at sprites 2365+. 01:28:58 <Afdal> Weird, I wonder what the problem was 01:30:10 <planetmaker> http://mz.openttdcoop.org/opengfx/newgrf.php?1=2365:2372 01:30:17 <planetmaker> ^^ quicker ;-) 01:31:00 <Snail_> thanks ;) 01:31:01 <michi_cc> And also the appropriate plain slope sprites, but they are distributed over all base GRFs. 01:31:06 <Eddi|zuHause> has the railtype yet an option to choose whether to use the rail/monorail/maglev tunnel? 01:31:51 <Snail_> those sprites are split already, but we'll need to split them even further, right? the tunnel head needs to be separated from the grass above the tunnel? 01:32:28 <planetmaker> I'd say 'yes' 01:33:08 <planetmaker> I'd split it into three parts... then the actual normally sloped grass part can be made a bit bigger to allow for more custom tunnel portals 01:33:23 <Eddi|zuHause> it needs 4 parts 01:33:37 <Eddi|zuHause> ground-front, ground-back, entrance-front, entrance-back 01:35:07 <planetmaker> ground and back are the same 01:35:32 <Eddi|zuHause> "ground" meaning the grass, and "entrance" meaning the wall/roof 01:35:41 <michi_cc> The base set would only need the grass though, if no custom tunnel sprites are defined for a railtype the code would just fallback to drawing the default tunnels like now. 01:35:55 <planetmaker> yes 01:36:34 <Snail_> yep 01:36:55 <michi_cc> The railtype NewGRF would then supply only the back and front sprites with the portal itself. And it does *not* need an extra back part, because that can be attached to the tunnel track sprite that is already used. 01:36:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i believe the 32bpp-ez tunnel entrance is cut wrong... 01:37:40 <michi_cc> So a NewGRF would supply one back sprite with rails + back part of tunnel portal and a new sprite with the front portal overlay. 01:37:50 <Snail_> s o, the sprites where the tunnel head is facing the viewer need to be in three parts: track underlay, portal overlay, grass overlay? 01:39:11 <michi_cc> The base set needs sprites like the two I linked (just tweaked a bit better to allow as many different portal outlines as possible), just in all four directions for all 6 different grass types. 01:39:34 <Snail_> right 01:39:42 <Snail_> any link to the other grass types? 01:40:05 <michi_cc> Basically I don't know if a bigger or a smaller cutout is better, simply because I don't draw tunnel portals :) 01:41:15 <Snail_> hehe, the only ones I drew so far have a smaller cutout, but a bigger portal itself (NG has smaller loading gauge) 01:41:16 <michi_cc> For the original TTD sprites you need to decode all trg*.grf and search the slopes in there, for OpenGFX there is probably also some nice page with them. 01:41:57 <planetmaker> I do believe something like http://imagebin.org/190914 is needed 01:42:14 <planetmaker> there's a gimp file with all terrain sprites for OpenGFX 01:42:32 <michi_cc> And just a note on my examples: The sprites are very crude combinations of the tunnel sprites with the portal erased and the slope grass to fill them up. 01:43:01 *** sllide [~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #openttd 01:43:24 <planetmaker> but same as michi, I'm not sure on the exact way a good cut would need to be 01:43:41 <michi_cc> planetmaker: One thing they do need to show is some shading to indicate the tunnel "bulb", because if you really just use the slope it would look weired. 01:43:57 <michi_cc> Oh, and the cutout needs the identical between TTD and OpenGFX of course :) 01:44:21 <planetmaker> probably that's best... 01:44:30 <planetmaker> doesn't make it easier, though 01:44:39 <Snail_> I guess that if one supports custom portals, the grass over the tunnel would be drawn *before* the custom portal itself, right? 01:45:05 <Snail_> so that if one supplied a larger portal (like the massive ones in the XIX century) with lots of masonry around the cutout, it would be drawn over the grass 01:45:18 <michi_cc> Yeah, drawing order would be back grass, then tracks with back portal, front grass, front portal overlay. 01:45:21 <planetmaker> michi_cc: but showing the "bulb" implies already a terrain-covered thing... though... maybe not, as it can be overdrawn. So you might be right that it's a good thing to have 01:45:33 <Snail_> michi_cc: sounds great 01:46:08 <michi_cc> planetmaker: The point is that you can overdraw/hide the bulb, but you couldn't add it in the portal overlay to match the grass. 01:46:17 <planetmaker> yes 01:46:19 <planetmaker> quite right 01:47:07 <michi_cc> So the shading needs to be just so to not look off. Quite a challenge to draw. 01:48:16 <Snail_> what do you mean by tunnel bulb? the part of the slope that is actually horizontal coz there's the tunnel underneath? 01:48:32 <Snail_> like, the semicircle emerging from the slope? 01:49:23 <planetmaker> yes 01:49:34 <michi_cc> The right sprite in my example has a lighter area at the top which indicates that the area in the middle isn't sloping like left and right. 01:52:02 <Snail_> you mean the "bulb" has to be separated? why can't it be drawn in the same sprite as the slope? 01:52:13 <michi_cc> No. 01:52:26 <michi_cc> I mean it has to be present so you can't just take the plain sloped grass. 01:52:49 <Snail_> yep 01:53:10 <Snail_> anyway I did a quick example for one orientation only. Can I show you guys so that I see if I'm on the right track? 01:58:41 <michi_cc> Snail_: You are allowed to, but you have to decide for yourself if you can :p 01:58:49 <planetmaker> well... ^^ ;-) 01:58:55 <Snail_> :D 01:59:11 <Eddi|zuHause> typical german answer :p 01:59:21 <Snail_> I meant across irc (I'm not an expert of this) 01:59:25 <Snail_> perhaps I should PM? 01:59:37 <planetmaker> just post a link to what you mean ... ? 01:59:42 <planetmaker> to that image 02:00:01 <planetmaker> I mean... we did, why wouldn't you be allowed to? 02:00:18 <Snail_> ok, well I have no space to upload it to 02:00:23 <Snail_> I'll just PM it to you guys 02:00:26 *** Afdal [~chatzilla@host-174-45-176-7.chy-wy.client.bresnan.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:00:41 <planetmaker> just use imagebin as I used 02:00:43 <planetmaker> quicker 02:03:22 <Snail_> http://imagebin.org/190917 02:03:31 <Snail_> thanks for the tip about imagebin :) 02:04:09 <planetmaker> well. that back part of the grass is not large enough imho 02:04:25 <planetmaker> it should not contain the cut-out of the "bulb", I guess... 02:04:39 *** JVassie_ [~James@2.30.128.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:05:09 <planetmaker> you might not need create the portals itself. That'd only be needed for an actual railtype NewGRF 02:06:10 <planetmaker> And the ground/back (with tracks)...not sure the walls are needed. Just the ground 02:06:33 <planetmaker> if at all 02:06:38 <planetmaker> *unsure* 02:06:50 <Snail_> but perhaps new walls might be supplied by the newGRF 02:07:08 <michi_cc> Snail_: The back grass part should also have grass in the area where the tracks are to allow tracks that are smaller than default. 02:07:15 <Snail_> for instance, a portal made of bricks would have reddish walls, while one made of stone would have greyish walls 02:07:16 <planetmaker> yes. But this task is not a newgrf task, but what the base set must supply 02:07:52 <planetmaker> i.e. those parts which the newgrf must not / need not include 02:07:55 <Snail_> michi_cc: got it, you have a point 02:08:16 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: btw, do you have anything to say on the report i linked earlier where people have problems with the opengfx signals? 02:08:45 <Snail_> planetmaker: ok... well, ideally a newGRF should either provide its own walls, or no walls at all, and then the custom walls would be used 02:08:49 <planetmaker> I'm not aware of any signal issue and OpenGFX has signals of both types, Eddi|zuHause 02:08:55 <michi_cc> And I guess the cut-out of the left-most sprite should be a bit bigger as otherwise it would be impossible to have portals that are "bigger" than default on the inside. 02:09:07 <planetmaker> though I never play with British, thus it's long ago I checked 02:09:38 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: as far as i read out of it, opengfx shows british semaphore signals regardless of the traffic-side setting 02:10:13 <michi_cc> Snail_: A NewGRF would provide either no tunnel sprites at all, in which case the current (uncut) tunnel sprites are shown, or it would provide the two portal sprites (i.e. second-left and right sprite in your example). 02:10:18 <planetmaker> I don't play with semaphore either. So... don't know currently either 02:10:36 <planetmaker> but I shall check. But not before sleep 02:10:51 <planetmaker> but what's a "british" semaphore and what a German, Eddi|zuHause? 02:11:05 <Eddi|zuHause> http://www.tt-ms.de/forum/showthread.php?tid=5676&pid=78993#pid78993 02:11:07 <Snail_> michi_cc: ahh I understand. So those "cut" sprites (1st and 3rd column in my drawing) would *only* be used if a newGRF provided custom portals 02:11:18 <planetmaker> yes 02:11:18 <michi_cc> Yes. 02:11:38 <planetmaker> Snail_: and those sprites would have to be supplied by that very newgrf 02:11:38 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: british semaphores point to the left if red, and downwards if green, german semaphores point to the right if red and upwards if green 02:11:44 <Snail_> therefore walls would not be needed, because the newGRF would need to provide them. Same for the portals themselves. So all I need to draw are my 1st and 3rd columns, perhaps with a larger bulb to allow for larger tunnel heads? 02:12:05 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: which is problematic alone for the fact that they're pointing into the track if they are drawn on the right side 02:12:29 <michi_cc> Which is why the cut-out needs to have a good shape (I don't know if good here means large or small, you'd probably have to test that with your french portals) to allow the most flexibility for NewGRFs. 02:13:08 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: at least there are sprites of both types 02:13:29 <Snail_> mich_cc: yes. Well, we would need a "one size fits all", both for NG and SG. I'm not gonna draw two bulb sizes :D 02:13:40 <planetmaker> in sprites/png/infrastructure/semaphores.png 02:13:50 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i don't have opengfx 02:14:03 <Snail_> perhaps I'll just enlarge this a little bit. Would look a little bit weird for NG. But considering the vast majority of sets out there uses SG, the latter needs priority 02:14:06 <michi_cc> Snail_: Yes. And that is the difficult part of the job :) 02:14:25 <Snail_> :p 02:14:49 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: whatever you use, it's an easy thing to check as you can switch base sets easily 02:14:50 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-011-135.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [] 02:14:57 <planetmaker> if you know what to look for 02:14:59 <Snail_> the grass in the underlay is not a joke too, cz it needs to be shaded (a little bit darker) 02:15:08 <michi_cc> A bigger cut-out doesn't necessarily mean a big tunnel inside though, just that the portal would have more walls/decoration to cover the space. 02:15:11 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: and the bandwith to get it and keep it up to date? 02:15:29 <planetmaker> oh. my. god 02:15:40 <planetmaker> all those wasted bits. I'm really sorry 02:15:48 <Snail_> michi_cc: yes it's true. I'll do some tests 02:15:58 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm also really sorry that i'm living in the most underpriviliged village around 02:16:20 <Eddi|zuHause> but seriously, my whole garden hose bandwidth is already used for the whole day now 02:16:56 <planetmaker> last time I heart you talk about bandwidths it was in terms of movies / hour ;-) 02:17:06 <planetmaker> *heard 02:17:46 <Eddi|zuHause> the last time i spoke about bandwidth was that it doesn't suffice for viewing a low-res livestream like the openttd-yogscast 02:18:19 <Snail_> time ago I made this 02:18:20 <Snail_> http://imagebin.org/190919 02:18:27 <planetmaker> which still is a lot compared to 3MB for opengfx 02:18:47 <Eddi|zuHause> which is 3MB of something else i won't get instead 02:18:51 <Snail_> I think this encompasses all the climates for OpenGFX. It shows the final result of how my NG tunnels should look like. Are those all the openGFX climates I need? 02:19:11 <planetmaker> toyland 02:19:47 <Snail_> oh :p 02:20:25 <planetmaker> a base set is a base set and all need to supply exactly the same sprites 02:20:40 <Eddi|zuHause> the sprites look like the wall is standing in the middle of nowhere 02:21:16 <planetmaker> anyway, I'm off to bed. Have a good night, folks 02:21:40 <Snail_> good night 02:22:13 <Snail_> Eddi|zuHause: yep because I didn't edit it much 02:23:16 <Snail_> and that would be the inconveniences of a "one size fits all" base I guess... it needs to accommodate both old-style tunnel heads like the one I drew (which includes a big wall) as well as more modern heads without a wall around the opening 02:24:14 <planetmaker> you start to understand why it wasn't (yet) done ;-) 02:25:10 *** sllide [~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 02:25:28 <Snail_> :) 02:25:46 <Snail_> anyway I think I found the toyland sprites, I've got a file with all the openGFX infrastructure 02:26:10 <Snail_> I'll just need to decode the original sprites and give it a try... I still think it's gonna be better than nothing 02:26:53 <Wolf01> 'night 02:26:55 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host48-239-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 02:29:34 *** Biolunar_ [~mahdi@blfd-4d086af8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 02:36:42 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4db0e029.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:55:13 <Snail_> hmm, I just decoded trg1r.grf, I could find the sprites for the normal and snow-covered tunnels, but not the others (desert and toyland) 02:55:29 <Snail_> perhaps they're in another *.GRF file? 03:08:16 <Snail_> nevermind I found them 03:15:26 *** adamkex [~adam@h18n3-fre-d2.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #openttd 03:30:36 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 03:40:01 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, the climates are in the other grfs 03:41:19 *** Biolunar_ [~mahdi@blfd-4d086af8.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us!] 03:43:47 <adamkex> Can somebody help me explain how a a feeder service with busses and trains work? x1 is a trainstation outside of city x. x2 is a busstation inside city x. y1 is a trainstation outside of city y. y2 is a bustation inside city y. What I want is that passengers travel by bus from x2 to x1, then by train from x1 to y1, and then by bus from y1 to y2. i seem to have set this up but my trains seem to be loading the same passengers as it unloade 03:47:09 <Eddi|zuHause> transfer only works one-way 03:47:42 <Eddi|zuHause> pr you need really complex systems with more than one station 03:48:08 <Eddi|zuHause> one station only handling incoming passengers, the other one only handling outgoing passengers 03:50:05 <adamkex> so my best bet is just to place trainstations very close to the city? 03:51:01 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, at least close enough so the trains can unload without transfer 03:51:40 <Eddi|zuHause> and use the trams to haul passengers to the stations with transfer and leave empty, so more pople use the long distance trains 03:54:47 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:34e7:b910:a468:8ee9] has quit [Quit: bye] 03:57:55 <adamkex> Eddi|zuHause: but how would the arriving passengers enter the city if all busses are set so they leave the train station empty? 04:16:46 *** pjpe [ae5b52e7@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 04:24:18 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-16-139.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:50:58 *** fjb|tab is now known as Guest22163 04:50:58 *** Guest22163 [~frank@p5DDFE646.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:50:59 *** fjb|tab [~frank@p5DDFE646.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 05:02:46 *** Snail_ [~jacopocol@CPE0013f7fc9e20-CM0013f7fc9e1c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Snail_] 05:51:04 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B74876.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:51:21 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B745BA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 06:07:30 *** fjb|tab [~frank@p5DDFE646.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:20:25 *** Twofish [~Twofish@box80-64-205-146.static.sdsl.no] has joined #openttd 07:43:45 *** encoded [~encoded@adsl-65-23-250-212.prtc.net] has joined #openttd 07:44:26 <encoded> lol wtf 07:45:43 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 07:45:46 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 07:53:56 *** eberon [~Lee@99-135-137-23.lightspeed.evtnil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:58:58 *** KouDy [~KouDy@188.75.190.58] has joined #openttd 07:59:11 <encoded> can i just unzip the nightly build over an installed stable? 07:59:51 <encoded> too late 08:05:33 <Alberth> sounds like a good way to make a big mess of your file system to me :p 08:10:58 *** KouDy1 [~KouDy@188.75.190.58] has joined #openttd 08:11:53 <encoded> its in D:\games\openttd not program files if thats what you mean 08:13:10 <encoded> can someone explain how to get 2 trains in 1 track? i never did it like that in original TTD 08:13:22 <Alberth> no, I meant that now you have no way of knowing which file is used and which one is not. 08:14:42 <Alberth> http://wiki.openttd.org/Tutorial/Two_Platforms 08:15:07 <Alberth> there is also a Signals wiki page, which you may read after the tutorial 08:15:30 <Alberth> +want to 08:16:30 *** KouDy [~KouDy@188.75.190.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:18:51 <planetmaker> encoded: the best choice is to not unpack *over* another installed version, but just unpack the game into a new directory 08:19:36 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-002-239.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 08:21:59 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@ip-86-49-59-25.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 08:32:05 <dihedral> greetings 08:32:44 <Alberth> o/ 08:33:26 <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause, what about LTE? did you check the coverage of that? 08:38:44 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.26.172] has joined #openttd 08:51:10 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-153-135.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 08:57:14 *** TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has joined #openttd 09:13:03 <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: i did, but they limit bandwidth to what i have right now after ridiculously low amounts of traffic 09:16:59 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@D5225594.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has joined #openttd 09:21:13 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 09:22:33 *** Progman [~progman@p57A18E13.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 09:38:27 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-002-239.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:38:50 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 09:39:16 <Terkhen> good morning 09:45:06 <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause, that is a sad story indeed 09:45:43 <dihedral> i just got myself internet from "kabelbw" 09:46:07 <dihedral> as the standard dsl line would not go beyond 2Mbit/s 09:52:15 *** andythenorth [~Andy@host86-180-12-160.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 09:52:57 <andythenorth> morning 09:53:18 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 09:53:19 <__ln__> , said andythenorth 09:54:34 <encoded> its 6am 09:54:41 <encoded> wtf are you guys doing up? 09:55:34 <andythenorth> there speaks a man without children 09:55:36 <dihedral> it is 6am in YOUR timezone 09:56:25 <Terkhen> it's 11 AM here, and I'm busy enjoying my holidays :) 09:58:22 * Alberth wonders how you can be busy doing that :p 10:00:23 <Terkhen> being with the family, slacking and playing games take all of my time :P 10:01:35 <Alberth> enjoy :) 10:02:09 <Terkhen> thanks 10:02:17 <Terkhen> it's almost time to go back, though 10:03:17 *** pjpe [ae5b52e7@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 10:05:35 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@ip-86-49-59-25.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:06:13 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@ip-86-49-59-25.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 10:09:20 *** snack2 [~nn@dsl-prvbrasgw1-fe05dc00-37.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 10:17:26 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@ip-86-49-59-25.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:18:19 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-011-135.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 10:40:10 <andythenorth> hmm 10:40:18 <andythenorth> http://iagenweb.org/cerrogordo/photos/electric_Brick_Tile_1952.jpg 10:40:22 <andythenorth> HEQS ^ ? 10:43:08 <Alberth> industrial tram :) 10:45:48 *** fjb|tab [~frank@p5DDFE646.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 10:51:23 <andythenorth> there's one a bit like that already in the game 10:51:31 <andythenorth> game / set /s 10:51:34 <andythenorth> hmm 10:51:41 <andythenorth> those are standard gauge 10:53:40 <Alberth> likely they picked whatever was easily available 10:56:00 *** TWerkhoven2[l] [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 10:56:52 * andythenorth ponders industrial rail vehicles 10:56:54 <andythenorth> maybe a railtype 10:57:07 <andythenorth> meh - there would have to be signals and things 10:57:21 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-82-26-113-18.midd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 11:00:17 <andythenorth> http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/mccl3.jpg 11:00:24 <andythenorth> http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr0102/cdm99.jpg 11:02:02 *** TWerkhoven[l] [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:02:58 <andythenorth> http://www.american-rails.com/california-interurbans.html 11:06:38 <Alberth> man included at the front :p 11:15:39 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-40-235.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 11:17:47 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host48-239-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 11:18:06 <Alberth> moin Wolf01 11:18:34 <Wolf01> hello o/ 11:19:28 *** Elukka [~Elukka@78-27-84-248.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 11:20:14 *** TWerkhoven2[l] [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:20:55 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:22:12 *** JVassie_ [~James@2.30.128.207] has joined #openttd 11:22:21 *** KenjiE20 [kenjie20@free.blinkenshell.org] has joined #openttd 11:24:12 *** Pixa [~pixa@79-68-103-143.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd 11:25:17 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@79-74-225-216.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:30:56 *** DDR [~chatzilla@142.179.78.88] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 8.0/20111115183541]] 11:43:44 *** Pixa [~pixa@79-68-103-143.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:43:54 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-46-125.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 11:44:51 *** Pixa [~pixa@79-68-102-81.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd 11:49:44 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-97-175.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:50:51 *** fjb|tab is now known as Guest22186 11:50:52 *** fjb|tab [~frank@p5DDFE646.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 11:50:56 *** Guest22186 [~frank@p5DDFE646.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:56:41 *** Devedse [~Devedse@cable-123-30.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #openttd 11:58:13 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 12:02:09 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-82-26-113-18.midd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:02:31 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23687 /trunk/readme.txt: -Fix [FS#4922]: document where the game script directory is 12:02:35 *** Markavian [~Markavian@188-222-85-41.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:11:40 *** lordnokon [~LordNokon@41-135-163-215.dsl.mweb.co.za] has joined #openttd 12:12:11 <lordnokon> hi people 12:13:14 <lordnokon> i need a bit of help beter understanding min profit under the detailed performance rating 12:13:36 <lordnokon> i do i get a 100% rating on it? 12:13:58 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@ip-86-49-59-25.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 12:14:01 <lordnokon> *how do i 12:14:24 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@ip-86-49-59-25.net.upcbroadband.cz] has left #openttd [] 12:14:49 *** vargadanis [vargadanis@catv-89-135-23-65.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #openttd 12:15:45 <vargadanis> hello there 12:16:03 <vargadanis> I have a problem with a station and dunno what causes the issue.. here is a picture of the station: http://i43.tinypic.com/6oop01.png 12:16:27 <vargadanis> it looks to me that from the depo there should be a free way to the 3rd and 4th track of the station yet the trains wouldn't go 12:16:31 <TWerkhoven> you mean the transparancy? 12:16:34 <vargadanis> any tips why that could be? 12:16:40 <TWerkhoven> or waiting for free path 12:16:47 <vargadanis> waiting the free path 12:17:18 <Rubidium> missing electrification 12:17:18 <vargadanis> I use the path signals and one way path signals for this station 12:17:23 <vargadanis> damn.. 12:17:42 <Rubidium> that's even clear from this image 12:17:55 <vargadanis> damn 12:17:56 <vargadanis> thank you 12:18:09 <vargadanis> after I start the game it seems that it defaults back to the non electric one 12:18:18 <vargadanis> I'll pay attention when loading the game 12:18:20 <vargadanis> thank you 12:18:37 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@85.210.72.189] has joined #openttd 12:19:13 <Rubidium> then set that setting for default railtype to "most used" 12:19:54 *** Pixa [~pixa@79-68-102-81.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:20:34 <vargadanis> that would be a smart thing to do, wouldn't it? So I cannot do that - smart solutions are not my thing in TTD :) hehe 12:21:29 <Alberth> you only need more practice :p 12:23:13 <Alberth> lordnokon: http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_mechanics may be what you are looking for 12:23:29 <Alberth> (we have many lords here nowadays) 12:24:49 <Rubidium> Lord Albert XVII ;) 12:27:23 <lordnokon> i've read that before, but still sit on 0/100 12:27:38 <lordnokon> even thou i have no vechile making negative income 12:29:30 <Alberth> so the lowest profit is too low 12:32:58 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.71.170] has joined #openttd 12:34:53 *** encoded [~encoded@adsl-65-23-250-212.prtc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:37:19 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@85.210.72.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:37:46 <lordnokon> al my income are about 100 000ponds 12:38:03 <lordnokon> at a time 12:38:21 <lordnokon> per train, ship, aircraft of verchile 12:38:27 <lordnokon> *vehicle 12:39:26 *** TWerkhoven2 [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 12:46:19 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:48:11 <Alberth> I don't know then. Perhaps you can post your save game at the forum and ask it there? 12:55:36 *** TWerkhoven[l] [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 12:56:34 <lordnokon> fook i hate this country i stay in 12:58:04 *** TWerkhoven2 is now known as TWerkhoven 12:58:54 <MNIM> lordnokon: have you taken a look at the finances window yet? 13:01:18 <lordnokon> MNIM: yes i have, not strange there 13:02:04 *** andythenorth [~Andy@host86-180-12-160.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:02:46 <MNIM> do the numbers add up? 13:04:39 *** Snail_ [~jacopocol@CPE0013f7fc9e20-CM0013f7fc9e1c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #openttd 13:07:14 *** andythenorth [~Andy@host86-180-12-160.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 13:07:41 <lordnokon> http://i39.tinypic.com/eijm6o.png 13:12:29 <Eddi|zuHause> lordnokon: min profit is the vehicle with the lowest income 13:14:31 <lordnokon> Eddi|zuHause: per anual year? 13:14:48 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, including vehicles stopped in depot, etc. 13:15:21 <Eddi|zuHause> you can sort the vehicle list by income 13:16:56 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:6c9d:1490:49de:bcb4] has joined #openttd 13:16:59 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 13:17:37 <lordnokon> previous year? 13:19:17 <lordnokon> Eddi|zuHause: i just want to confirm, no vechile is suppose to have any negative income? and has to make at least a min of 10 000 for that fin year? 13:19:19 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 13:20:24 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-82-26-113-18.midd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 13:20:42 <Eddi|zuHause> we can't double check that unless you give us the savegame 13:25:14 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-5d821e4e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 13:27:12 <lordnokon> where can I upload my savegame to? 13:27:54 <Eddi|zuHause> either the forums, or a filehoster of your choice 13:28:02 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-5d821e4e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [] 13:28:47 <Rubidium> what the ... a "how to get 32 bits graphics" tutorial completely filled with just changing some fracking settings that have absolutely nothing to dow ith 32bpp graphics 13:29:07 <Rubidium> (e.g. changing the autoreplace money limit) 13:29:21 <planetmaker> eh? 13:29:51 <Rubidium> that's definitely helping those 32bpp graphics get going 13:34:37 *** Snail_ [~jacopocol@CPE0013f7fc9e20-CM0013f7fc9e1c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Snail_] 13:39:21 <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: in attempting to move towards rendering the intermediate views, a friend tried to render a box to fit the templates using an isometric projection at a 30 degree angle from the ground, and the sprite angles you've listed for the CETS templates 13:39:23 <Elukka> it doesn't fit thouhg 13:39:24 <Elukka> http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/bawkses.png 13:39:25 <Elukka> any idea what's up? 13:39:40 *** ZirconiumX [50019723@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 13:39:51 <ZirconiumX> Hello everyone 13:39:53 * planetmaker guesses "the ceiling" 13:40:05 <Alberth> Elukka: 30 degrees is not right afaik 13:40:18 <Elukka> huh. 13:40:25 <Elukka> that's what truebrain was using 13:40:33 <Elukka> what is right? 13:40:59 <Eddi|zuHause> the angle is arctan(1/2), so ca. 26.5° 13:41:25 <Elukka> aha, thanks 13:46:22 <TrueBrain> 35 degrees Elukka 13:46:29 <TrueBrain> did I say 30? Sorry, has to be 35 :P 13:46:37 <Elukka> ...35, not 26.5? 13:46:37 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-5d821e4e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 13:46:38 <TrueBrain> Orthographic, 35 degrees for the camera 13:46:54 <TrueBrain> 128x64 for resolution, aspect ratio 100/100 (as long as they are the same I guess) 13:47:11 <TrueBrain> camera is at 0/-60/3 (not really relevant tbh) 13:47:22 <TrueBrain> -30 degrees X, -225 degrees Z (y = 0) 13:47:38 <TrueBrain> and then most likely another 90 degrees X rotation to see your object :) 13:48:12 <TrueBrain> Elukka: basically, there are 3 places you need to set things to get it "just right" 13:48:30 <TrueBrain> the Scene has to be in resolution of 128x64 (at least, I like that most) 13:49:02 <TrueBrain> then I have an "Empty" entry, to bias the camera so I can do stuff easier. It is at 0,0,0 with rotation -30, 0, -225 (XYZ Euler) 13:49:19 <TrueBrain> in that is the camera, at 0,-60,3, with rotation 90,0,0 (XYZ Euler) 13:49:39 <TrueBrain> the camera itself is Orthographic, with 35 'scale' 13:50:09 <TrueBrain> also make sure to set your clipping from 0.1 to some insane value .. 500 or so 13:50:13 <TrueBrain> default value can be a bit tight :P 13:50:36 <TrueBrain> that should be the total information to generate images correctly for OpenTTD from blender :) 13:52:38 <TrueBrain> @calc 360 - 225 13:52:39 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 135 13:52:42 <TrueBrain> @calc 360 - 225 - 90 13:52:43 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 45 13:52:52 <TrueBrain> owh, lol, that is not 35 :P *fail* 13:53:47 <TrueBrain> owh, Elukka, and then a tile is 12.5 <units> in both directions 13:53:56 <Elukka> thanks, i'll try that out some time 13:54:13 <Elukka> coincidentally, with the 35 degree angle i can already render correct sprites with qubicle \o/ 13:54:17 <TrueBrain> so I guess the camera is at 45 degrees from the Z, and 60 degrees from the X 13:54:20 <Elukka> the lengths are wrong but that's fixed by cutting out some pixels in the middle 13:56:54 <TrueBrain> PS: the above values work, as in, it is in my blender that generates a valid landscape set. There are a lot of other values on the wiki and I dunno where more; most of them are wrong (for blender at least) :P 13:57:17 <TrueBrain> including the .blend file on the wiki; it generates images that are off by 2 pixels :( 13:58:02 <TrueBrain> and for blender, dont forget to store the PNGs as RGBA :P (RGB is default) 14:01:43 <Belugas> hello 14:06:16 <TrueBrain> so I guess BaNaNaS is almost 3 years old now .. how nice :) 14:06:36 <TrueBrain> 42M downloads, hehe 14:11:34 *** Chris_Booth_ [~chatzilla@client-82-26-113-18.midd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 14:12:37 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@88.130.186.214] has joined #openttd 14:12:48 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-82-26-113-18.midd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:13:01 *** Chris_Booth_ is now known as Chris_Booth 14:13:24 *** fjb|tab [~frank@p5DDFE646.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:16:42 <Belugas> 49 million downloads??? 14:16:44 <Belugas> wow.. 14:16:51 <Belugas> that's impressive! 14:16:59 <TrueBrain> 42 14:17:00 <TrueBrain> but yes 14:18:21 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6A0F2.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:23:20 *** andythenorth [~Andy@host86-180-12-160.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 14:40:16 *** Adambean [~AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 14:44:38 <Belugas> hem.. 14:44:59 <Belugas> sorry, my glasses are not what they used to be :) 15:03:23 *** KritiK [~Maxim@93-80-57-221.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 15:05:08 *** Twofish [~Twofish@box80-64-205-146.static.sdsl.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:26:32 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@79-68-99-205.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd 15:30:02 *** KingPixaIII [~pixa@79-68-98-113.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd 15:31:03 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.71.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:34:38 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@79-68-99-205.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:36:48 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 15:36:48 *** Pixa [~pixa@79-68-105-204.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd 15:39:05 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@79-74-226-222.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd 15:42:33 *** KingPixaIII [~pixa@79-68-98-113.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:44:58 *** Pixa [~pixa@79-68-105-204.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:53:18 *** Pixa [~pixa@79-68-109-159.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd 15:56:03 <__ln__> http://users.utu.fi/lanurm/kuvat/tmp/ICE-screen.jpg 15:57:06 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@79-74-226-222.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:58:02 *** eberon [~Lee@99-135-137-23.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #openttd 16:20:44 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@D5225594.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:30:30 <Aali> so thats what happened in Eschede.. 16:32:27 *** ptr [~peter@c-5eeaaa31-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #openttd 16:39:30 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 16:41:19 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 16:42:02 *** dlr365 [~Doug@d142-59-83-184.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 16:54:23 *** Pixa [~pixa@79-68-109-159.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:56:06 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-82-26-113-18.midd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:57:17 *** ZirconiumX [50019723@ircip3.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 16:59:37 *** Pixa [~pixa@79-68-111-49.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd 17:02:42 *** TomyLobo2 [~foo@84.148.119.75] has joined #openttd 17:02:43 *** ptr [~peter@c-5eeaaa31-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:02:44 *** ptr [~peter@c-5eeaaa31-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #openttd 17:03:24 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@85.210.78.110] has joined #openttd 17:07:10 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-82-26-113-18.midd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 17:08:33 *** TomyLobo [~foo@p549465DF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:08:33 *** TomyLobo2 is now known as TomyLobo 17:09:08 *** Pixa [~pixa@79-68-111-49.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:09:12 *** Pixa [~pixa@79-68-98-149.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd 17:12:26 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@85.210.78.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:17:13 *** Pixa [~pixa@79-68-98-149.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:18:31 *** andythenorth [~Andy@host86-180-12-160.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 17:21:46 <andythenorth> michi_cc: what was the blocker for yacd? was it frequently re-calculating the link graph for all cargo packets waiting on stations? 17:24:24 <michi_cc> There is no frequent recalculation of anything. What is comparatively very expensive is the inital route finding when each cargo packet is generated. Houses generally generate small packets often, which can also be clearly seen in http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/patches/YACD-gameloop.png 17:25:07 <michi_cc> Industries on the other hand generate big packets seldomly, so they are no problem at all. 17:25:34 <andythenorth> the initial route finding is to establish the destination? 17:26:30 <michi_cc> The code needs to find out if there is a route to the destination at all, and if yes, which source station to place the packet at. 17:27:24 <andythenorth> so you don't get packets on the network without any possibility of routing? 17:27:45 *** encoded [~encoded@adsl-65-23-250-212.prtc.net] has joined #openttd 17:28:03 <andythenorth> hmm 17:28:16 <michi_cc> In the worst case this equals to a search of the complete link graph because otherwise you can't know if there really is no route. 17:29:19 <andythenorth> and viable routes can't be cached? (I know you explained this before - sorry) :| 17:29:30 <Alberth> you are looking for the optimal path, or did you tune it to find any path? 17:29:34 <andythenorth> just trying to figure out if we could do 'less' somehow 17:31:26 <Alberth> what if a house has a limited number of destinations? 17:31:43 <michi_cc> If you want to cache more or do less, you have to give up features. e.g. balancing over multiple links by waiting cargo or the different travel 'classes' (fast/cheap/etc). 17:32:30 <michi_cc> The proper solution to the problem is simply to not use A* but instead to use an algorithm similar to what is used for packet routing in real-world networks. 17:34:20 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: what did you use to generate that graph? :) 17:34:56 <michi_cc> callgrind (from the valgrind suite) + kcachegrind 17:35:06 <TrueBrain> its pretty 17:35:16 <TrueBrain> one nasty bug: itis bad to add ... to cut off labels .. but okay :P 17:37:39 <andythenorth> what if houses generated large packets infrequently? 17:38:33 *** Markavian [~Markavian@j616s.co.uk] has joined #openttd 17:41:05 <michi_cc> andythenorth: Then you probably get the same problems like you always complain about with supplies :) It's going to use less CPU though. 17:41:10 *** ptr [~peter@c-5eeaaa31-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 17:41:36 <andythenorth> which problems do I complain about? (there are so many) :P 17:42:08 <michi_cc> Big packets mean you can't really distribute the among several destinations with low demand. 17:44:37 *** ptr [~peter@c-5eeaaa31-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #openttd 17:45:17 *** eberon [~Lee@99-135-137-23.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:48:29 <andythenorth> michi_cc: how about 'PAX will only make n changes before refusing to travel' ? 17:48:41 <andythenorth> then you stop evaluating if a route isn't found within n links 17:48:49 <andythenorth> the maths is proabably still against that :P 17:49:01 *** encoded [~encoded@adsl-65-23-250-212.prtc.net] has quit [] 17:49:41 <michi_cc> Already implemented :) But you'd be surprised how far you can come in the graph even with a low limit. 17:49:43 *** encoded [~encoded@adsl-65-23-250-212.prtc.net] has joined #openttd 17:50:20 <andythenorth> nah, not really :) 17:50:38 <andythenorth> it's factorial on the number of links per node or something 17:50:41 <andythenorth> my maths is poor :P 17:51:28 <andythenorth> but I do really like YACD, and I miss it in my current game 17:51:39 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23688 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: 17:51:39 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Codechange: No need to check if a train needs servicing if we only extend a 17:51:39 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: train's path without actually calling the pathfinder. The path extension will 17:51:39 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: stop when hitting a junction tile, so it is impossible to miss a depot this way. 17:56:54 <Belugas> maybe one day, andythenorth, maybe one day... 18:00:16 <encoded> how do i use TTD graphic set after i used openfx ? 18:00:48 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.85.182.147] has joined #openttd 18:01:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i think TTT had a limit of two transfers 18:01:46 <Eddi|zuHause> or three 18:01:58 <Eddi|zuHause> with three you already get really far 18:02:33 <Rubidium> encoded: in the game options menu there's a dropdown which you can use to select the base "graphics" 18:03:00 <encoded> yes but only openGfx shows up 18:03:12 *** ptr [~peter@c-5eeaaa31-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 18:03:56 *** ptr [~peter@c-5eeaaa31-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #openttd 18:04:37 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: so they're using a DOS version from ca. 1993? 18:04:58 *** JoeyJo0 [~JoeyJo0@D978094C.cm-3-1a.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Segmentation Fault.] 18:05:01 <Rubidium> encoded: then you don't have the original graphics in the right (see readme) location 18:06:11 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: DOS is much more stable and needs less resources than newer Windows :p 18:06:33 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: sure, until someone needs to maintain it :) 18:09:10 <Alberth> embedded software engineers are likely to be much happier without windows :p 18:09:48 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-82-26-113-18.midd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:11:25 *** ptr [~peter@c-5eeaaa31-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:11:29 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.67.205] has joined #openttd 18:12:02 *** ptr [~peter@c-5eeaaa31-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #openttd 18:14:08 <encoded> readme mentions some .grf files but in my TTD install the .grf files have diferent names 18:14:44 <Rubidium> how are they called there? 18:15:21 <encoded> tredit.grf trend.grf trhcom.grf trhcom2.grf 18:15:30 <encoded> trtitle.grf 18:15:35 <glx> that's not TTD 18:15:52 <encoded> what is it then? 18:16:25 <Rubidium> Transport Tycoon; the original one, not the Deluxe one 18:16:47 <encoded> ah, and here i was thinking i was playing TTD all these years 18:17:39 <glx> main difference I remember between TT and TTD is one way signals 18:18:00 <glx> TT doesn't have them 18:18:52 *** Devedse [~Devedse@cable-123-30.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:19:19 *** Bob [5ea90468@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 18:20:42 <encoded> so.... where do i get *cough* some original grfs *cough* 18:21:09 *** Bob [5ea90468@ircip3.mibbit.com] has quit [] 18:21:11 <Alberth> from a CD 18:21:15 <glx> google may know 18:21:32 <glx> but you won't get any link here :) 18:22:20 <Alberth> oh, you can get a link too: www.lmgtfy.com 18:24:17 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: I'd consider 4 as the useful lower limit: bus - local train - intercity train - local train - bus 18:26:26 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd 18:26:52 <andythenorth> does cargodist have the same CPU issue? 18:26:57 <Rubidium> so then me going to Berlin by plane would already be (almost) impossible ;) 18:27:33 <Alberth> andythenorth: it does calculations in a separate thread 18:27:49 <encoded> hey look i think i found it 18:28:12 <Rubidium> bus - local train - ic - aircraft - crappy bus (yay TXL) - local train 18:28:20 <michi_cc> andythenorth: cargodist isn't really fast, but thanks to the design that has no fixed destination for each packet, the most expensive part of the calculations can be moved to a different thread. 18:28:48 <andythenorth> for PAX, would it be more appropriate to take that approach? 18:28:50 <michi_cc> Rubidium: YACD default is 5, so: works :) 18:29:05 <michi_cc> andythenorth: In my personal opinion: no. 18:29:13 * andythenorth really likes the demand in YACD 18:29:42 <michi_cc> Where's the challenge if pax/cargo only goes where you let your trains run? 18:29:50 <Rubidium> train is more relaxed though.. local train - ic, or morning bike ride - ic 18:30:19 <andythenorth> michi_cc: agreed - for cargo 18:30:25 <andythenorth> I'm 50:50 on which is better for pax 18:31:55 *** andythenorth is now known as Guest22209 18:31:55 *** Guest22209 [~Andy@host86-180-12-160.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:31:55 *** andythenorth [~Andy@host86-180-12-160.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 18:34:56 <encoded> how do i reset openttd settings? 18:38:25 * Belugas would erase the config file 18:38:36 <Belugas> AFTER CLOSING The program... 18:40:30 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r23689 /trunk/src/lang/ (norwegian_bokmal.txt simplified_chinese.txt swedish.txt): 18:40:30 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 18:40:30 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: simplified_chinese - 23 changes by chenwt0315 18:40:30 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 236 changes by mantaray 18:40:30 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: swedish - 9 changes by tobjork 18:45:02 <Alberth> buy a new computer 18:45:22 *** ptr [~peter@c-5eeaaa31-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:45:49 *** ptr [~peter@c-5eeaaa31-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #openttd 18:45:52 *** dlr365 [~Doug@d142-59-83-184.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:46:24 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-40-235.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 18:48:54 <Belugas> and give me the old one!! 18:48:59 <Belugas> Plllllllllllllllllllllllllease 18:49:18 <encoded> im having problems with the music pack 18:49:39 <encoded> only NoMusic shows up now 18:50:47 <glx> get openmsx or the original music files 18:51:04 *** namad8 [aaaaa@c-67-163-246-17.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:52:24 <encoded> i already put original files in 18:52:37 <encoded> and tried to download openmsx from the game 18:52:43 <encoded> neighter appear 18:57:57 <encoded> help? 19:00:53 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host48-239-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:01:07 *** namad7 [aaaaa@c-67-163-246-17.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 19:01:34 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host48-239-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 19:04:47 <encoded> ok i used installer to fix issue 19:04:56 <encoded> now copying over nightly 19:09:37 *** Adambean [~AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:16:45 *** ptr [~peter@c-5eeaaa31-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 19:18:17 <andythenorth> including yacd for non-pax cargo only is not really viable? 19:18:30 *** Markavian` [~Markavian@j616s.co.uk] has joined #openttd 19:19:52 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-40-235.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 19:21:03 *** mkv` [~Markavian@j616s.co.uk] has joined #openttd 19:24:21 <andythenorth> michi_cc: (apologies for questions) - is the link graph constructed by evaluating orders of current vehicles, or some other method? 19:24:47 *** Markavian [~Markavian@j616s.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:27:22 *** Markavian` [~Markavian@j616s.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:37:11 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-13-43.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 19:40:01 *** lordnokon [~LordNokon@41-135-163-215.dsl.mweb.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:40:13 *** lordnokon [~LordNokon@41-135-163-215.dsl.mweb.co.za] has joined #openttd 19:41:27 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-40-235.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:53:33 *** andythenorth is now known as Guest22225 19:53:33 *** andythenorth [~Andy@host-2-101-97-155.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 19:53:47 *** Guest22225 [~Andy@host86-180-12-160.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:55:33 <michi_cc> andythenorth: The graph is (more or less) identical to the order graph. 19:57:07 <andythenorth> the order graph doesn't change very often (relatively)? 19:58:14 <michi_cc> The graph itself changes only if (implicit) orders change, but the cost of each link changes basically each tick. 19:59:36 <andythenorth> so in principle whether node A is connected to node X could be cached in a (massive) lookup table? 19:59:42 <andythenorth> but not the actual route 19:59:56 <Alberth> hmm, does it make sense to do such calculations then? By the time the cargo reaches the link, the cost is changed anyway 20:00:44 <michi_cc> <michi_cc> The proper solution to the problem is simply to not use A* but instead to use an algorithm similar to what is used for packet routing in real-world networks. 20:00:59 <andythenorth> no cheating :P 20:01:52 <michi_cc> Packet routing is a hard⢠problem though. 20:02:33 <Alberth> andythenorth: not sure it counts as cheating. Finding the optimal route for each and every packet is big overkill, parcel delivery companies don't do that either 20:03:15 <andythenorth> I understood that the initial problem was simply 'can a packet be generated to destination x' 20:03:16 <andythenorth> ? 20:03:34 <andythenorth> which means checking if nearby stations are connected to x... 20:04:10 <michi_cc> The initial problem is: can a packet be generated to destination X, and if yes, which nearby station should it be delivered to. 20:04:35 <andythenorth> so a lookup table solves the first, but tells nothing of use for the second 20:04:42 <michi_cc> Which means that you need some kind of cost for each option. 20:05:09 <andythenorth> hmm 20:06:18 <andythenorth> sounds like packet routing :P 20:06:24 <andythenorth> literally 20:09:10 *** andythenorth is now known as Guest22227 20:09:11 *** Guest22227 [~Andy@host-2-101-97-155.as13285.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:09:11 *** andythenorth [~Andy@host-2-101-97-155.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 20:09:11 *** andythenorth [~Andy@host-2-101-97-155.as13285.net] has left #openttd [] 20:09:23 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 20:09:27 *** andythenorth [~Andy@host-2-101-97-155.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 20:09:42 * andythenorth wonders how stable links are in a typical game 20:10:59 <michi_cc> Quite stable if a typical game has no conditional orders and goto orders are preferably non-stop. 20:12:16 * andythenorth tries to devise some horrible system of storing weightings at each node 20:12:20 <andythenorth> empirically 20:13:07 <andythenorth> meh 20:13:11 <andythenorth> I should do trucks 20:13:18 <andythenorth> maths - i'm way out of my depth :P 20:14:27 <andythenorth> give the first node a starting score of -255, the packet tries to get to any node with a higher score 20:14:41 <andythenorth> scores are initially estimated, then updated when cargo packets arrive at destination 20:14:46 <andythenorth> meh 20:14:52 <andythenorth> dunno what problem that is solving 20:15:31 <andythenorth> instead: BANDIT trucks may refit to n trailers (using subtypes). Is there any harm in unifying the subtype across vehicles? 20:15:40 <andythenorth> it may cause undesirable results in some cases 20:16:11 <andythenorth> e.g. a truck with 3x9t trailers might be upgraded to 3x30t trailers 20:16:34 <andythenorth> if there are say...20 trucks in the group, you suddenly have way too much capacity on that route :P 20:16:53 <andythenorth> by a factor of...lots 20:20:07 <michi_cc> Some incremental routing like http://mute-net.sourceforge.net/howAnts.shtml is probably the way to go. 20:23:42 *** andythenorth is now known as Guest22228 20:23:43 *** andythenorth [~Andy@host86-180-12-160.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 20:25:50 <andythenorth> michi_cc: it would be nice if we could run the whole simulation for, say, 6 months, on ffwd before generating each packet :P 20:26:01 <andythenorth> but trying to know the future is definitely cheating 20:27:07 *** Guest22228 [~Andy@host-2-101-97-155.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:27:11 <andythenorth> it's nice how the ants optimise for shorter links simply because they can travel them faster 20:27:28 <andythenorth> thereby dropping more pheromone on that link 20:27:55 <TrueBrain> ugh, dont talk about Ant Optimizations :P Too many nightmares :P 20:28:09 <michi_cc> I wasn't really thinking about ant behaviour, but more what is described at the section "How MUTE Routes Messages" 20:29:27 <andythenorth> hmm 20:29:36 <andythenorth> the routing is not dissimilar to the score idea I had 20:29:47 <andythenorth> both node A and node X are known 20:30:16 <andythenorth> node X starts with score 0 and assigns 1 to all connecting to nodes. They then assign 2 to all their connected nodes that don't already have a score etc. 20:30:41 <andythenorth> a limit is applied 20:31:34 <andythenorth> node A does same, but starting at 255 and scoring upwards 20:31:37 <andythenorth> (-255) 20:31:53 <andythenorth> packets then route to any node with score > than current cnode 20:32:02 <andythenorth> it's probably horribly inefficient computationally 20:32:18 * andythenorth wrote a lot of flash games with dumb solutions in that worked 20:32:21 <TrueBrain> you are kinda describing Dijkstra :P 20:32:32 <andythenorth> probably 20:32:37 <andythenorth> I'm hardly original :) 20:32:50 <TrueBrain> just a few years late to come up with it :P 20:33:21 <andythenorth> Dijkstra is slower than A*? 20:33:32 <TrueBrain> lol; no 20:33:37 <Aali> what if you just gave the packet to a random station, if that packet gets delivered, increase the likelyhood of that station getting another packet with that destination? 20:33:38 <Eddi|zuHause> A* is a specialized Dijkstra 20:33:45 <TrueBrain> what Eddi|zuHause says :P 20:34:18 <andythenorth> Aali: you end up with unpleasant side effect of cargo hanging around on stations, undelivered :) 20:34:34 <Aali> yeah there is that 20:34:53 <Aali> maybe the industry could "reallocate" it after a while 20:35:51 <TrueBrain> easy solution for YACD btw: just pick a random town to go to :p Connected or not :D 20:36:00 <TrueBrain> forcing full networks FTW :D 20:36:11 <TrueBrain> (mind you: town, not station) 20:36:17 <Aali> isn't there a patch like that already? 20:36:21 <Aali> :) 20:38:07 * andythenorth ponders routing cargo based on tiles, not stations 20:38:28 <andythenorth> with 8x8 tilegroups 20:38:36 <andythenorth> and the ability to wormhole cargo between stations :P 20:38:57 <andythenorth> also solves part of infrastructure sharing ;) 20:45:59 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: how does YACD determ the from/to atm? Or can you point me to where that is calculated? (just curious) 20:48:59 <michi_cc> http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/git/yacd.git/commitdiff/b625ef31b86d7bba3eecf6958fd2de57ba6f9a39 plus the three (or so) previous commits are were the destination of each packet is chosen, and http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/git/yacd.git/commitdiff/9b87b0c659b5745157f7ef2d4a2747902925946a plus the ~10 commits before for the demand links between towns/industries. 20:49:11 <michi_cc> Commit overview: http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/git/yacd.git/shortlog 20:51:13 *** pjpe [ae5b52e7@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 20:55:22 <TrueBrain> lol; you really went all out feature wise, didn't you? :D 21:00:26 <michi_cc> The most important part of a cargo *destinations* patch is the destinations part because that is what directly defines game play. 21:04:58 <TrueBrain> so if I read this right, a house generates a cargo to a town, depending on weight etc, and after that it checks if there is a route towards that destination? 21:09:24 *** pjpe [ae5b52e7@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 21:14:14 <TrueBrain> not ever really bothered with cargodest or cargodist patches, I have to say: not what I expected (at all), but much better / full / more gameplay changing :) 21:15:14 *** eberon [~Lee@99-135-137-23.lightspeed.evtnil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #openttd 21:16:36 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.67.205] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:17:03 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.67.205] has joined #openttd 21:17:03 <michi_cc> Yes, when a cargo packet is generated, a destination from the list of possible destinations of the source town/industry is chosen. For a town destination a 4x4 tile square as the destination tile is then chosen by weighted random. After that, the code checks if a connection between the source and the destinations exists and is inside the given limits (transfers etc.) and if yes, moves the packet to a station. If no, the packet is dropped. 21:17:36 <TrueBrain> I am mostly impressed you even wrote auto transfer (if I read it correct, of course) 21:18:18 <michi_cc> Auto-transfer is quite trivial if you've already have the link graph infrastructure. 21:18:44 <TrueBrain> true 21:18:53 <michi_cc> And frankly, cargod?st without auto-transfers is quite useless. 21:19:06 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-82-26-113-18.midd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 21:19:35 <TrueBrain> I btw wonder, if I have a station with trains and planes, which connect both to another station (which happens to be the dest for all), will they distribute theirself over those 2, or will they only take train/plane (because of the penalties)? 21:20:52 <michi_cc> Depends :) 21:21:07 <TrueBrain> how I read the code, it picks either one, and the other one will leave empty 21:21:15 <TrueBrain> but patch over patch over patch, hard to get a total picture :D 21:22:20 <michi_cc> For a single packet: yes. But there are pathfinder penalties e.g. for cargo amount waiting on a specific link or time since the last vehicle. So the best route can change after each cargo packet is routed. 21:22:52 <TrueBrain> ah; smart solution 21:22:53 <michi_cc> Additionally, cargo packets have different "personalities", so some will prefer a fast connection and others an especially cheap connection. 21:23:05 <TrueBrain> yeah, that is a really nice touch btw :) 21:23:39 <TrueBrain> its funny; because you went all out on this, and wanted so much, you also have to pay by having to resolve a full graph :D 21:24:17 <michi_cc> The personalities are currently assign randomly, but you could coupled them e.g. with source house is office (accepts goods) or residential. 21:24:59 <TrueBrain> I once joked about implemented OSPF in OpenTTD. You are not far off :P 21:25:04 *** KritiK [~Maxim@93-80-57-221.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:25:17 <TrueBrain> and now I am tempted to suggest BGP :D 21:26:43 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.67.205] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:27:03 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.67.205] has joined #openttd 21:27:12 <michi_cc> The problem with something like BGP is that each node (== station) needs a full routing table to every other station. 21:27:16 <andythenorth> <TrueBrain> much better / full / more gameplay changing 21:27:20 <andythenorth> it really is ^ :) 21:27:41 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I am seriously surprised. I always expected YACD to be simple, but doing too much calculations. It is not simple. Not by far :P 21:27:47 <andythenorth> it's awesome 21:27:49 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: yup :) 21:27:53 <andythenorth> it's full featured and highly polished 21:28:00 <andythenorth> it's just a shame that it can't be shipped :( 21:28:08 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: well, I found code-wise errors, but that is not relevant ;) 21:28:13 <andythenorth> heh 21:28:23 <andythenorth> there are still oddities :) 21:29:04 <michi_cc> My local HD has a slightly more advanced state than the publicly available YACD 2.3. 21:29:12 <andythenorth> does it build with current trunk? 21:29:22 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: earlier this evening, when I just read you and andythenorth talking about it, I was just wondering: why not make a full matrix for all stations 21:29:35 <TrueBrain> a relative big map will have, what, 500 stations? 21:29:38 <andythenorth> what does that entail? 21:29:42 <michi_cc> It might if you fix all the save/load version conflicts. 21:29:48 <andythenorth> it it an n dimensional lookup table? 21:29:50 <TrueBrain> but then I realised that people tend to build LOTS of bus stations :( 21:30:04 <andythenorth> with YACD you build a lot MORE bus stations :P 21:30:11 <andythenorth> I think we should cheat and give PAX legs 21:30:13 <andythenorth> seriously 21:30:38 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: they have 21:30:39 <andythenorth> having to build bus routes covering every tile in every connected town is not that much fun by the second or third game 21:30:42 <TrueBrain> 7 houses? :) 21:30:50 <TrueBrain> then they are tired :P 21:30:54 <andythenorth> I'll walk 45 mins rather than get a bus 21:30:56 <TrueBrain> houses = tiles :P 21:30:56 <andythenorth> buses suck 21:31:05 <TrueBrain> haha; but that is not the idea of a TRANSPORT game :P 21:31:05 <andythenorth> some station grfs have car parks 21:31:12 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@85.210.67.205] has joined #openttd 21:31:17 <michi_cc> andythenorth: Modify station catchment :) 21:31:30 <TrueBrain> I wish station catchment was not a square 21:31:36 <TrueBrain> that is in my top 10 of wanted features :( 21:31:49 <michi_cc> Code it :) 21:31:58 <TrueBrain> so many things I want to code 21:32:05 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.67.205] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:32:09 <andythenorth> code a code generator :P 21:32:12 <TrueBrain> I still want to write a quad-tree to improve TileClosestByTown 21:32:18 <TrueBrain> just to see if it does improve 21:32:26 <TrueBrain> I want to write city borders 21:32:31 <TrueBrain> so you can see how big a city is 21:32:40 <TrueBrain> a view to see catchment area 21:32:41 <andythenorth> cargo specific catchment areas? 21:32:44 <TrueBrain> underground .. 21:32:49 <TrueBrain> signals on bridges :P 21:32:53 <TrueBrain> omg, I have to stop talking now 21:33:23 <SpComb> yes, underground! 21:33:29 <andythenorth> meh to underground 21:33:38 * SpComb photoshops some .png sprites and declares it done 21:33:43 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: if you forget about the '5 leg' constraint, you can make your FindRoute thingy much faster btw 21:33:49 <michi_cc> I guess http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/git/yacd.git/commitdiff/d2d24d29b44189e32a6e27c978cf5d36cd224c6e#patch8 (alread in trunk) can be used as an almost-quad-tree. 21:33:51 <TrueBrain> but I guess you really want that feature (mostly as it is really nice) 21:34:39 * Rubidium wonders where "a GUI defined by a game script" comes ;) 21:34:40 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@85.210.67.205] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:34:56 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: as you might have noticed, I havent written a single line of new code since commit :P 21:35:08 <TrueBrain> bit burned out by all the lobbying and politics tbh :) 21:35:12 <Rubidium> yeah, I noticed ;) 21:35:20 <andythenorth> there's politics :o 21:35:31 <TrueBrain> you should read the dev-channel from time to time .. 21:35:38 <Rubidium> I don't blame you either 21:36:08 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: well, it annoys me tbh, as I really want that feature :) 21:36:25 <Rubidium> that's also somewhat why I asked where it is on the "top 10" list 21:36:26 <TrueBrain> but I enjoy blender too much :D 21:36:41 * andythenorth probably isn't allowed in the dev channel :D 21:37:10 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: fair question; and I will write it soon (tm). I also have a few GS related issues to fix :) 21:37:53 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: that is "almost" a quad-tree yeah :p It misses children I guess :) 21:38:09 <TrueBrain> it is the child, so that is 50% of the work? :) 21:39:07 <michi_cc> But an almost-quad-tree might be already good enough if you store the town in all squares that are single-owned and fall back to the old search for multi-owned tiles. 21:40:03 <TrueBrain> that I don't follow, sorry? 21:40:48 <encoded> is there some way to make the map generator not put 5 factories near each other 21:40:57 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.67.205] has joined #openttd 21:41:10 <Rubidium> disable multiple industries in a town? 21:41:22 <encoded> wheres that setting? 21:41:44 <Rubidium> somewhere in the advanced settings 21:43:20 <andythenorth> encoded: use an industry newgrf :P 21:43:31 <encoded> i only see allow multiple industries of the same type 21:43:40 <michi_cc> TrueBrain: Make an map overlay that for each N-by-N square either stores the town or a special value if more than one town has influence over the tiles in the square. 21:43:57 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: and that overlay is missing :P 21:44:07 <TrueBrain> either in a quad-tree or another solution, doesn't really matter :) 21:44:09 <encoded> and that is off 21:44:14 <TrueBrain> but TileMatrix alone is not sufficient ;) 21:44:39 <TrueBrain> but I guess you are right ;) 21:44:58 <TrueBrain> will be a heavy CPU vs memory trade-of 21:45:00 <michi_cc> No, but as town center tiles rarely change, calculating and keeping that map up-to-date isn't that big a challenge. 21:45:59 <michi_cc> Depends on how big squares you choose. We're talking about 0.5MB for 4x4 squares. 21:46:05 <michi_cc> for a 2048x2048 map. 21:46:06 <TrueBrain> so you suggest putting the vehicle hash on top of TileMatrix ;) 21:46:22 <TrueBrain> (but for towns :P) 21:47:43 <TrueBrain> so many fun things to try! :P 21:47:43 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.67.205] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:48:46 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.67.205] has joined #openttd 21:50:06 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: btw, just thinking out loud tbh, would a solution for your YACD be if you make 'regions' in the route links. What I mean is: 21:50:18 <TrueBrain> if you consider all stations in / near a town to be a single route ina bigger graph 21:50:31 <TrueBrain> that graph will be at most <townsize> big, so a matrix would be <townsize>^2 big, at most 21:50:42 <TrueBrain> within a town you can easily calculate a route on the fly each time 21:50:50 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@85.210.67.205] has joined #openttd 21:51:02 <TrueBrain> that should (in theory) recude the CPU load by a huge factor (at the expense of memory, of course) 21:51:09 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.67.205] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:52:06 <encoded> what does the Variety Distribution parameter in New Game Dialog do? 21:52:07 <michi_cc> As long as we are still limited by single-core performance and measure our memory use in MB, the proper choice is always memory over CPU. 21:52:38 <TrueBrain> well, then you can just make a <station-count>^2 matrix :P 21:53:09 *** Snail_ [~jacopocol@CPE0013f7fc9e20-CM0013f7fc9e1c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #openttd 21:54:02 <Aali> encoded: it distributes variety :) 21:54:22 <Aali> low setting means uniform landscape (macro level), high setting means varied landscape 21:54:55 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: btw, single core or not, 50% CPU to a single function is never a good thing I guess :D 21:55:41 <TrueBrain> I also guess this would be a typical thing that can be threaded; as a path taken does not influence the path another packet will take (in other words: the pathfinding is fully read-only) 21:55:53 <Belugas> HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE. I won't be back until i'llbe back :) 21:55:59 <TrueBrain> o/ Belugas 21:57:53 <TrueBrain> anyway, tnx for explaining how YACD works michi_cc :) At least I now understand what you are talking about when it comes to the issues of it :D 21:58:22 <Rubidium> Belugas: but... you're 12 hours early ;) 21:58:32 <Rubidium> in any case, have fun 21:58:35 <Terkhen> Belugas: enjoy :) 21:59:09 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: that was my suggestion! :P (grouping regions) :P 21:59:16 <michi_cc> TrueBrain: But a packet moved to a station affects the cost of the link, so it does influence all later route choices. And cargo generation and vehicle unloading is fully integrated into the tile loop/vehicle tick loop. 21:59:22 <andythenorth> only yours is more...better 21:59:30 <andythenorth> but still...I demand my compsci degree :P 21:59:42 <encoded> where is Multiple industries per town option?? 22:01:00 <Terkhen> economy -> towns IIRC 22:01:19 <andythenorth> or economy -> industries 22:03:19 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: hehe; like I said: you went all out, and now you are in trouble :D:D (it is a positive thing btw, let that be clear :)) 22:03:44 <andythenorth> and also yacd is highly playable - on my laptop at least 22:03:50 <andythenorth> until it flattens the batter anyway :P 22:04:16 <andythenorth> also it's a little...warm 22:04:22 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@85.210.67.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:06:31 <TrueBrain> ugh; I have a flu, and it is annoying. when you are in bed, you start to cough. when you are sitting up your head hurts. MAKE UP YOUR MIND BODY! Ffs ... 22:06:33 <TrueBrain> WTS: 1 body 22:06:36 <TrueBrain> slightly used 22:07:47 <andythenorth> flu is lame 22:08:32 <Rubidium> too bad flu is ambiguous and usually means the lesser undiagnosed variant 22:09:54 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: yeah, it is most likely just a cold. But you can never be sure at this stage :P 22:10:24 <andythenorth> flu makes you hallucinate 22:10:32 <andythenorth> I have had it maybe 3 times in my life 22:10:41 <TrueBrain> it _can_ make you hallucinate maybe :P 22:10:47 <TrueBrain> it is not part of the diagonise :P 22:10:50 <andythenorth> heh 22:11:03 <andythenorth> flu makes _me_ hallucinate. ymmv 22:11:05 <andythenorth> :) 22:11:49 <Rubidium> well... the medicin I got for my (in)flu(enza) is known to make people hallicunate and jump of the roof of tall buildings (so when I got it I was also more or less on suicide watch) 22:12:11 <TrueBrain> that is one hell of a flu :P 22:12:40 <TrueBrain> it makes you want to fly 22:12:43 <TrueBrain> ironic, I guess 22:13:05 <andythenorth> Rubidium: tamiflu? 22:13:14 <Rubidium> andythenorth: yep 22:13:26 <andythenorth> the side effects are quite rare ;) 22:13:31 <andythenorth> I just reading about it 22:14:06 <andythenorth> meanwhile...flu tends to cause delirium, and hallucinations can be part of that, but not necessarily 22:14:16 <TrueBrain> also rare for children who got injected with the "mexikaanse griep" (what is the english?) to get a neurological disfunction .. yet more than a few got it :( 22:14:16 <andythenorth> it's quite interesting wiki page 22:14:31 <andythenorth> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delirium 22:15:02 <andythenorth> "In the latter state, a person may be awake and immediately aware and responsive to many stimuli, and capable of coordinated movements, but unable to perform any meaningful mental processing task at all." 22:15:10 <andythenorth> ^ this is a typical morning for me :P 22:15:20 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: I'm always wondering who "studied" that 22:15:22 <TrueBrain> isnt it for everyone andythenorth? :D 22:15:29 <andythenorth> he 22:15:32 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: studied what? 22:15:55 <Rubidium> that the vaccin causes neurological problems 22:16:26 <TrueBrain> several countries, and the supplier of the vaccin admitted it 22:16:44 <TrueBrain> and I doubt a supplier does that when it is not set in stone :P 22:16:57 <andythenorth> last time I had actual flu, my house was being rebuilt. I remember climbing out of a window onto scaffolding to decide some building issues with the builders. This was fun - I was having time skips at that point (like watching slow video) 22:17:03 <TrueBrain> also mostly means they already knew 22:17:37 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: the list of things you could get from medicine is more a list of things that people got during the trials than actually being certain it was caused by that 22:17:55 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I guessin this case the N got so huge, it is pretty clear :D 22:19:03 <TrueBrain> I am mostly very ciritcal when it comes to statistics, as I know how easy you can manipulate them; but in this case I tend to go with them :P 22:19:09 <Rubidium> but how do you study mental issues? You generally don't know whether the problem already existed before 22:19:40 <TrueBrain> I guess it accelerated the effect, sure 22:19:44 <andythenorth> ho. one cause of delirium is lack of sleep http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_deprivation 22:19:53 <andythenorth> I am familiar with this 22:19:57 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: or... people started looking for it 22:20:00 <TrueBrain> but if a "large" portion of a huge group gets a certain condition after they all have been injected with something 22:20:15 <Rubidium> for example, now many many more people have dyslexia 22:20:33 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: everyone on earth has either dyslexia or discalculi 22:20:44 <TrueBrain> (by strict definition) 22:21:12 <TrueBrain> the only clause avoiding that is: and is limited in his ability because of it 22:21:17 <TrueBrain> which goes for most diagnoses 22:21:20 <TrueBrain> (ADHD, ...) 22:22:42 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.79.95] has joined #openttd 22:23:10 <Rubidium> yeah, kids get ADHD from the TV 22:23:16 <TrueBrain> I can imagine with sponsbob 22:23:21 <TrueBrain> I even turn totally ADHD over it 22:23:22 <TrueBrain> omg 22:23:46 <TrueBrain> who ever thought it would be educational to show a hyper-active thingy on television, and promote it as good behavoir, should be shot :P 22:23:49 <Rubidium> (or is it the parents seeing all those busy kids in TV programs saying they've got ADHD, so their kid has it as well) 22:24:26 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: like said, with many conditions it goes: you don't have it until others have negative effects from it 22:24:33 <Rubidium> it's (IMO) by a large part cause by upbringing 22:24:41 <TrueBrain> if the latter holds, many diagonses start to hold :P 22:26:05 <TrueBrain> well, after spending 2 minutes with a "claimed" ADD person and a real ADD person, you know who is the "claimed" :P 22:26:21 *** Progman [~progman@p57A18E13.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:27:24 <Wolf01> 'night 22:27:31 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host48-239-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 22:27:55 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I guess what we are both saying is: the world is doomed if you believe everyone out there :D 22:28:54 <TrueBrain> want to hear another 'fun' story .. got a letter from my ISP yesterday 22:29:02 <TrueBrain> headline: "WE ARE IMPROVING AND MAKING YOUR INTERNET FASTER" 22:29:04 <TrueBrain> reading on 22:29:11 <TrueBrain> 2 mbps connections become 10 mbps 22:29:12 <TrueBrain> how nice 22:29:24 <TrueBrain> 20 mbps connections will be 25 mbps, for N euro extra 22:29:25 <TrueBrain> fine 22:29:30 <TrueBrain> my "university" connection? 22:29:34 <TrueBrain> will become a 10 mbps 22:29:37 <TrueBrain> it is a 100 mbps 22:29:40 <TrueBrain> HOW IS THAT FASTER?! 22:29:49 <TrueBrain> and they dropped that in 2 lines in the middle of a letter 22:30:29 <TrueBrain> I am still upset because of it :( 22:30:45 <andythenorth> have a nap 22:31:01 <andythenorth> apparently lack of sleep causes excessive emotional response to events :) 22:31:11 <TrueBrain> hehehe 22:31:16 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: maybe it improves the ping times due to less traffic on the line? 22:31:16 <TrueBrain> then I always have a lack of sleep :P 22:31:24 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: hahaha :D 22:31:36 <Rubidium> and that makes the internet *faster* 22:31:38 <TrueBrain> I am pretty sure they can no longer find a way to forward the EAPOL packets tbh :P 22:31:59 <TrueBrain> (which is the authentication method for all university networks in the netherlands these days I believe 22:32:21 <Rubidium> what they told you is that the throughput will be lowered ;) 22:32:27 *** andythenorth is now known as Guest22245 22:32:27 *** andythenorth [~Andy@host86-180-12-160.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 22:32:31 <andythenorth> bah 22:32:40 <andythenorth> BT broadband "the most reliable wireless in the uk" 22:32:42 <Rubidium> or that's how they'll spin it if it ever gets to court 22:32:43 <andythenorth> yeah right 22:32:53 *** Guest22245 [~Andy@host86-180-12-160.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:32:59 <andythenorth> and you can't even swap the stupid crappy wifi router out for a non-BT one :/ 22:33:01 <Rubidium> andythenorth: makes me wonder how unreliable the other internet is in the UK ;) 22:33:02 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I just wonder why they didn't offer me free-for-live upgrade to 25mbps, to compensate 22:33:04 <TrueBrain> that would have been fair 22:33:28 <andythenorth> they claim 'most reliable wireless' 22:33:37 <andythenorth> which is surely lies, as each house varies 22:33:46 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: maybe the university stopped subsidizing? 22:33:48 <TrueBrain> "most reliable" is very vague andythenorth ;) 22:33:53 <andythenorth> he 22:33:58 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: doubtful; but something to call about in the new year :P 22:35:25 <Rubidium> other news: in Enschede on the campus they're working on upgrading the room connections to 1 Gbps ;) 22:35:36 <TrueBrain> nice ... impressive even 22:35:57 <Rubidium> too bad the connection on my work just sucks massively 22:39:18 <TrueBrain> well, clearly Leiden no longer cares enough about its students to supply them with real internet connectivity to university resources :P 22:39:37 <TrueBrain> guess I need to setup a bouncer, to access those sites restricted to university IPs :P 22:40:00 <Rubidium> pff... how many of those are there? ;) 22:40:13 <TrueBrain> many :) 22:40:17 <TrueBrain> papers, journals, ... 22:40:18 <Rubidium> I've maybe needed it, on average, one a year 22:40:36 <TrueBrain> I use it a bit more :) 22:40:48 <TrueBrain> just annoyed; not un-overcomable :P (is that english?) 22:41:11 <Rubidium> though most of the time I was at the uni doing that stuff so I didn't notice 22:41:31 <Rubidium> in the other cases I just opened the VPN connection and it worked 22:41:47 <TrueBrain> we don't have a 'VPN' as such 22:41:51 *** Jogio [~5080c4c7@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 22:42:02 <TrueBrain> every department has its own method ... 22:42:08 <TrueBrain> annoying :P 22:42:20 <Jogio> hi everybody 22:42:37 <Rubidium> maybe it's that the student network in E'de is run by students that makes it more useably for students? 22:42:47 <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: did the bavarians have different colors for different coach classes too? 22:42:55 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: for sure that makes a huge difference :) 22:43:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: haven't researched that yet 22:44:04 <Elukka> well, i'll get the green one done first 22:44:14 <Rubidium> hi Jogio 22:44:50 <Elukka> i noticed the prussians at some point moved to a unified green color scheme 22:45:13 <Jogio> I had crashed openttd just before when I wanted to read the readme of a newGRF 22:45:27 <Jogio> is this bug known already? 22:46:02 <Terkhen> depends 22:46:06 <Rubidium> not to me; which NewGRF did you want to read the readme from? What operating system are you using? 22:46:16 <Jogio> wait I will copy a error message 22:46:17 <TrueBrain> which OpenTTD version? 22:46:18 <Jogio> Error: Assertion failed at line 1306 of /bamboo/src/widget.cpp: given_width >= this->smallest_x && given_height >= this->smallest_y 22:46:37 <Jogio> I have ubuntu lucid lynx 22:46:57 <Jogio> and it happens in 1.2.0 RC 1 22:47:27 <Jogio> but only when you see the newgrfs of a multiplayer game 22:47:31 <TrueBrain> beta1 I hope :D 22:47:49 <Jogio> ahh maybe :-) 22:48:05 <Jogio> yes 22:48:29 *** nudelundbrot [~quassel@p57AF9447.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 22:48:37 *** nudelundbrot [~quassel@p57AF9447.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:48:49 *** AD [wilberforc@drinks.mountaindew.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:49:56 <Rubidium> Jogio: what is the name of the NewGRF you opened the readme for (which server)? 22:50:56 <Jogio> the openttdcoopserver maybe 22:51:12 <Jogio> I think it happens to all newgrfs 22:51:40 <Jogio> and I just tested that it crashed to when i click on license 22:52:45 <kais58> warning: attempt to free a non-heap object 'ByteBlob::hdrEmpty' <- that normal on building 1.1.3? 22:53:13 <Rubidium> kais58: yes :( 22:53:40 <Rubidium> kais58: if you're interested why, read the comments near the line that causes the warning 22:54:07 <kais58> I just saw it when building it, just checking, still the same on nightlies? 22:54:15 *** AD [wilberforc@drinks.mountaindew.org] has joined #openttd 22:54:55 *** AD is now known as Guest22251 22:54:56 <Rubidium> kais58: yes-ish; you will only see it when assertions are disabled 22:54:58 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-82-26-113-18.midd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 10.0/20111221135037]] 22:55:21 <Rubidium> for releases the assertions are disabled, for nightlies, betas and release candidates they are enabled 22:55:30 <Rubidium> (by default) 22:55:46 <kais58> so it's still an issue then is what I was asking ;) 22:56:03 <andythenorth> good night 22:56:06 *** andythenorth [~Andy@host86-180-12-160.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 22:56:22 <Rubidium> kais58: yes, it is an issue... but not in OpenTTD 22:56:25 *** TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has quit [Quit: Popidopidopido] 22:56:36 <TrueBrain> Jogio: any specific grf? Or just a random one? 22:56:41 <kais58> I'll go read the source then 22:57:15 <Jogio> a random one 22:57:19 <Rubidium> Jogio: which base graphics set are you using; if OpenGFX, which version? 22:57:31 <Jogio> oh 22:57:36 <Jogio> wait 22:58:01 <Jogio> 0.4.1 22:58:38 <Jogio> but the strange is that all works when i click on newGRF settings in main menu 22:58:55 <TrueBrain> is the random one always the same? :) 22:59:01 <TrueBrain> just name one which you know crashes :) 22:59:58 <Rubidium> I've randomly tried half a dozen of #openttdcoop's server but none triggered the error 23:00:00 <Jogio> ok try CHIPS 23:00:39 <Jogio> hmm maybe its only under ubuntu 23:01:10 <Jogio> chips on openttdcoop welcome server 23:01:22 <TrueBrain> can't reproduce it either 23:01:44 <Jogio> hmm 23:01:46 <Rubidium> Jogio: do you use 64 bits or 32 bits? 23:01:51 <Jogio> 32 bits 23:03:03 <Jogio> i now use openttd 1.2.0-beta1-linux generic-i686 23:03:27 <kais58> oh, ok, it's just a false warning by GCC 23:04:15 <Jogio> i try to reboot but I don't think it changes something 23:04:19 *** Jogio [~5080c4c7@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:04:56 <appe_> evening 23:05:03 *** Snail_ [~jacopocol@CPE0013f7fc9e20-CM0013f7fc9e1c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:05:53 * Rubidium is off for dreams ;) 23:05:58 <TrueBrain> sleep well Rubidium 23:06:05 <appe_> how did i change my nick in multiplayer? 23:06:08 <Terkhen> good night 23:06:19 <TrueBrain> night Terkhen 23:06:25 <TrueBrain> appe_: console, "name <newname>" 23:06:29 <TrueBrain> or quit, and change it in the GUI :P 23:06:34 <TrueBrain> or was it "nick <newname>" 23:06:35 <TrueBrain> dunno :P 23:08:27 *** Jogio [~5080c4c7@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 23:09:06 <Jogio> hi again 23:09:27 <Jogio> any ideas about my bug? 23:10:09 <TrueBrain> none 23:10:18 <TrueBrain> and I guess the only way to find out what goes wrong, is if you can attach a debugger (gdb) 23:10:22 <TrueBrain> not sure if you know how that works 23:10:25 <Yexo> heh, I love people making suggestions about things we already implemented :p 23:10:27 <TrueBrain> otherwise, make a bug report :) 23:10:38 <TrueBrain> Yexo: and make it sound like NOBODY EVER thought about it :P 23:10:45 <Yexo> yes, of course :) 23:10:54 <Yexo> well, nobody did post it as suggestion on the forum :p 23:11:41 <Jogio> i can compile but I never debugged something 23:12:05 <TrueBrain> well, as long we can't reproduce it, you are out of luck sadly 23:12:22 <Yexo> Jogio: can you reproduce the issue yourself? 23:12:49 <Jogio> yes it happens always 23:13:12 <TrueBrain> which language btw Jogio? 23:13:16 <Jogio> german 23:13:24 <TrueBrain> meh; a crash.log would be useful :D Has all those details 23:13:42 <Jogio> that's no problem 23:14:03 <Yexo> Jogio: if you can compile yourself, configure with "./configure --enable-debug=3", after that "make" and then start the resulting binary in gdb 23:14:07 <TrueBrain> ah, I can reproduce it :) 23:14:17 <TrueBrain> happens in German, not in english 23:14:23 <Jogio> ah nice 23:14:35 <Jogio> i try in english too 23:15:09 <Yexo> ah, yes 23:16:42 <Jogio> in english it works on my computer :-) 23:17:08 <TrueBrain> CheckForMissingGlyphs causes a recalculation of the windows width, which fails somehow ;) 23:17:52 <Jogio> maybe the german text is longer then the english or something 23:18:14 <TrueBrain> given the error, I expect the rerverse ;) But lets find out .. 23:19:49 <Yexo> this->smallest_x = 4294967281; (=-15 if it was int) 23:20:03 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-5d821e4e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us!] 23:20:20 <TrueBrain> funny :D 23:22:46 *** snack2 [~nn@dsl-prvbrasgw1-fe05dc00-37.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 23:24:04 <Jogio> good night and thank you for your quick help :-) 23:24:08 *** Jogio [~5080c4c7@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:24:32 <TrueBrain> I wonder if he understands he helped us finding a bug :P 23:24:50 <Yexo> probably not 23:25:03 <Yexo> but for me it's time to sleep, good night 23:25:08 <TrueBrain> night Yexo 23:28:14 <TrueBrain> FS#4926, to make sure we don't forget :) 23:30:10 *** leroot [sup@CPE-58-173-130-11.cjcz1.cht.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 23:31:18 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 23:32:35 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:34:23 <kais58> are the source file md5's listed somewhere? 23:36:23 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.26.172] has quit [Quit: Sla Mutant Co-Op for Renegade - coming back soon] 23:37:16 <kais58> for older releases that is, I can see the current ones 23:42:52 <kais58> nevermind 23:51:18 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd