Config
Log for #openttd on 28th June 2012:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
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06:21:49  <Terkhen> good morning
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06:35:00  <telanus> Morning
07:05:25  <John_Snow> morning
07:07:42  <John_Snow> guys, where i can find guide how to use traffic lights ?
07:10:52  <Terkhen> if you mean train signals, try searching signals at the openttd wiki
07:11:36  <Terkhen> if you mean the traffic lights patch, no idea
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07:20:06  <John_Snow> yes, tain signals
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07:45:47  <MNIM> John_Snow: http://wiki.openttd.org/Signals
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08:59:41  <tal13s1n> finger
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12:57:15  <Belugas> hello
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13:38:51  <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: what's going on with CETS these days?
13:39:18  <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: oberhÃŒmer did some graphics recently, but i have not had a chance to review his changes
13:39:59  <Elukka> did you end up going 32bpp?
13:41:30  <Elukka> i see there are some new sprites
13:42:37  <Elukka> oberhÃŒmer certainly went with different colors to mine, i can't tell if it's just a different color choice or if they're 32bpp
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13:44:28  <Elukka> i need to try to get some sprites done again
13:44:31  <Elukka> i'd love a wider palette
13:46:09  <Elukka> between my sprites and oberhÃŒmer's older and newer ones the shading and colors are sorta all over the place
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14:07:06  <Alberth> moin
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14:23:16  <Terkhen> hi Alberth
14:33:01  <Alberth> busy here :)
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14:41:18  <Belugas> same here
14:41:24  <Belugas> hello Alberth :)
14:42:15  <Alberth> hi sir B :)
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14:57:13  <Terkhen> I should be busy too but I'm not :P
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15:40:04  <NGC3982> evening.
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15:41:30  <Belugas> good afternoon :)
15:41:53  <Alberth> moin :)
15:47:28  <Belugas> good appetite!
15:47:29  <Belugas> burp
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16:54:16  <Alberth> hi andy
16:55:14  <andythenorth> lo
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17:26:12  <Wolf01> hello
17:45:35  <Alberth> hello
17:48:04  <FLHerne> hello :-)
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18:10:45  <andythenorth> quiet then
18:17:47  <Terkhen> kinda
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19:13:57  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r24360 /trunk/src/newgrf_engine.cpp: -Fix [FS#5224]: Ship-specific 80+x variables were missing for unknown reason. (Hirundo)
19:20:24  <andythenorth> bananas tells me people are doing something with the game though
19:20:37  <andythenorth> why aren't they here complaining about something?
19:21:33  * Alberth vaguely remembers mentioning a few fishy things
19:25:06  <Alberth> and also wishing a 10% or so speed-up of the boats when empty
19:25:15  <Rubidium> http://lwn.net/Articles/502471/ <- replace kernel with OpenTTD and the subsystems with OpenTTD subsystems and it pretty much fits (except the conferences and such)
19:25:47  <Rubidium> so... our coding style and reluctancy for accepting everything is just ISO 9001 ;)
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19:28:27  <Alberth> perfectly defined and repeatable :D
19:30:16  <andythenorth> we should get ISO accreditation
19:31:45  <Terkhen> andythenorth: I complain about lack of autorefit :P
19:31:55  <Terkhen> if you are looking for complaints, that should help you
19:31:58  <andythenorth> I complain about lack of v1.0 on CHIPS :P
19:32:21  <andythenorth> not many tickets to go http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/chips/issues
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19:37:43  <Alberth> you can only display one type of cargo, I guess?
19:38:19  <andythenorth> yup
19:38:36  <andythenorth> at least if I want to stay sane
19:38:47  * Alberth wants a sane andy as well
19:39:01  * andythenorth wonders what colour for bauxite
19:39:35  <andythenorth> don't care about RL
19:39:43  <andythenorth> just has to look different to clay and iron ore in game
19:39:44  <Alberth> red-ish comes to mind, but that's already used
19:39:55  <andythenorth> brownish
19:39:56  <Rubidium> red-ish is for me!
19:40:12  <Alberth> brownish is fine too
19:43:14  <andythenorth> HEQS bauxite is kind of pink, same as copper ore
19:43:17  <andythenorth> that will do I guess
19:44:52  <Alberth> seems useful if the ore does not change colour while loadingit into a vehicle :)
19:47:00  * FLHerne insists on the ability to display multiple cargoes simultaneously :P
19:47:18  <FLHerne> Sorry, wasn't paying attention earlier :-(
19:47:20  * Alberth expects a patch from FLHerne shortly
19:48:21  <andythenorth> FLHerne: which one goes on top?
19:48:22  <andythenorth> :P
19:48:44  <FLHerne> I have a station serving Coal/Ore/Bauxite/Clay/Sand/Stone - autorefit is awesome :D
19:49:10  <FLHerne> There should be a profusion of piles in myriad colours :-)
19:49:35  * FLHerne remembers that English Lang is no longer important :D
19:50:04  <FLHerne> Oh, it has oil too. That can't be piled up in the same way though :P
19:51:41  <frosch123> use barrels
19:51:54  <frosch123> they help in making a pile of oil
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19:52:35  <frosch123> http://images.nationalgeographic.com/wpf/media-live/photos/000/231/cache/salt-mine-nuclear-waste-asse-germany-waste-barrels_23159_600x450.jpg <- something like that
19:53:36  <frosch123> http://www.proactiveinvestors.co.uk/genera///img/companies/news/oil_barrel_stack_350_4f424dfe04512.jpg <- except that oil is dealt with more carefully :p
19:53:58  <Alberth> :)
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19:54:52  <DDR> frosch123: Beats what the american military did with their waste... 'um... ammo! Let's make burny ammo with it!'
19:55:26  <frosch123> yeah, it has a high density, useful for ammo
19:55:49  <DDR> Also, radioactive. Not useful for anyone near it.
19:56:25  <DDR> Most immediately the enemy, but also the people shooting it... and the people who have to live with it after the shooting stops. :(
19:56:26  <frosch123> if it's proper u238, the radioactivity will likely not hurt you
19:56:50  <frosch123> u238 does not have enough radiation
19:56:57  <DDR> Not in small amounts, but especially in Iraq people shoot lots of stuff.
19:57:24  <Rubidium> yay... someone who doesn't know much about radioactivity ;)
19:57:45  <frosch123> me? :)
19:57:54  <Rubidium> frosch123: 9
19:57:55  <DDR> Plus, when it burns (that's why it's armour-piercing) it sort of emits little chemically-inert radioactive droplets.
19:58:23  <DDR> Apparently, they're small enough to fit through the pores of your skin. O_o
19:59:00  <andythenorth> @seen Yexo
19:59:00  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: Yexo was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 2 days, 1 hour, 10 minutes, and 14 seconds ago: <Yexo> are you sure one has arrived this month?
19:59:24  <frosch123> DDR: skin? who cares about skin, if you can inhale them?
19:59:43  <DDR> And, as further proof God has a sense of humour, your body deposits all of the radioactive material it can in the balls. I need those, so I think I'll stay away from shooting burning radioactive waste.
20:00:24  <frosch123> oh, is that a reason to send womans into the field?
20:00:30  <frosch123> *women
20:01:32  <frosch123> DDR: anyway, i am quite sure that u238 does not hurt you due to radioactivity, but because it is heavy metal
20:01:57  <DDR> frosch123: Nup, it's radioactive. Not very, but quite enough.
20:02:16  * FLHerne looks back up the channel
20:02:26  <DDR> Either way, it's not something you should be just scattering around a populated area.
20:02:27  <frosch123> it's actually the least radioactive thing of all radioactives
20:02:28  <Rubidium> DDR: the half-life of U238 is about the 4.5 bilion years, releasing an alpha particle that is stopped by something like a sheet of paper
20:02:32  <FLHerne> Impressive off-topic wandering :D
20:02:46  <Rubidium> so picking up U238 with gloves is basically perfectly safe
20:03:28  <DDR> Yes, but you're not doing so... you're breathing it in, because you burnt it up a little while back, remember?
20:03:35  <FLHerne> Except the risk of the US military shooting you for stealing their ammo? :P
20:04:02  <DDR> lol
20:04:25  <andythenorth> is u238 a valid cargo for FIRS?
20:04:37  <Rubidium> also, the reason why depleted uranium is used in armour piercing has nothing to do with it's radioactivity, just with its density
20:05:40  <Rubidium> and... interestingly enough to shield radioactive materials since it's much denser (70%), thus shields beta/gamma radiation significantly better
20:05:49  <Rubidium> (per cm)
20:06:33  <frosch123> oh, did not know that application
20:06:33  <FLHerne> Presumably osmium would be too brittle and/or rare?
20:07:26  <Rubidium> even then, uranium oxide is more likely to kill you (due to toxity) than the radiation (but that's just minor details as dead's dead')
20:07:46  <Alberth> andythenorth: I hope it is not
20:08:36  <frosch123> andythenorth: you want to write a chemistry based industry set?
20:08:45  <andythenorth> I was bad at chemistry
20:08:49  <andythenorth> valency and crap :P
20:09:20  <FLHerne> Can we have nuclear power stations in FIRS?
20:09:33  <andythenorth> nope
20:09:45  <DDR> The reason it's used is because it's a hell of a lot cheaper than magnesium (or was that sodium... tungsten? I dunno. Some silly-expensive metal like that...) and the US military had a bunch of uranium on it's hands.
20:09:55  <DDR> It was a confluence of wants...
20:09:58  <FLHerne> Then there'd be a use for pairs of outdated Class 20s dragging short rakes of odd-looking wagons about :D
20:10:24  <DDR> They wanted to get rid of their nuclear waste, and the munitions industry wanted something less expensive to make their bullets out of.
20:10:29  <andythenorth> they'd trigger lots of 'this vehicle is making no money' warnings :P
20:10:46  * Alberth wanders off to more interesting things
20:11:19  <frosch123> DDR: u238 has just more than 10 times the densitry of magnesium
20:11:23  <Alberth> andythenorth: you don't need to give it fuel at all :p
20:11:41  <andythenorth> Alberth: what's more interesting? :o
20:11:44  <andythenorth> than this ^ ?
20:11:52  <FLHerne> Make the payment rates very high, to compensate for minimal quantities :P http://www.phantasrail.co.uk/July06/PF%206C53%20563LR2u.jpg
20:11:53  <frosch123> DDR: and every heavy metal is more toxic than uranium is radioactive
20:12:04  <frosch123> so your arguments are increasingly pointless
20:12:09  <DDR> frosch123: It doesn't matter too much whether it's dense, it's whether it's hot that counts more.
20:12:33  <frosch123> then you should use caesium or iod
20:12:39  <frosch123> not uranium
20:12:48  <DDR> What did they use before uranium?
20:12:59  <FLHerne> Add uranium-processing plants, too, and nuclear waste repositories :-)
20:13:02  <Alberth> andythenorth:  http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/temperate20120517, 2016-06-08.sav
20:13:38  <DDR> frosch123: The more I talk, the more it seems that diplomacy is the better option.
20:13:54  <DDR> (Or simply not using armour-piercing rounds.)
20:13:59  <Rubidium> did you actually know there is two times more rubidium (production: < 10 tonnes/year) in the ground than copper (production 16 million tonnes/year)?
20:14:18  <DDR> Hunh.
20:14:38  <FLHerne> Is it near-impossible to extract, or have they just not found a use for it yet? (or both)
20:14:55  <frosch123> Rubidium: in what depth?
20:15:44  <Rubidium> frosch123: the rubidium can be found basically anywhere, just barely anywhere with minable quantities. Those that mine it, mine it as by product
20:16:35  <frosch123> ah, one of those
20:16:49  <Rubidium> so rubidium is 100 ppm, silver is 0.070 ppm, gold is 0.0011 ppm
20:18:09  <frosch123> that's for the whole earth?
20:18:15  <Rubidium> yep
20:18:33  <frosch123> wiki says different numbers for the surface-near part
20:18:33  <Rubidium> uhm, earth's crust ;)
20:18:54  <frosch123> 29 ppm rb, 0,005 ppm au
20:19:27  <frosch123> 0,12 ppm ag
20:20:19  <frosch123> 47000 ppm fe :)
20:20:41  <frosch123> 258000 ppm si
20:20:44  <Rubidium> still, doesn't make much difference
20:20:51  <Rubidium> relatively at least
20:21:19  <frosch123> 494000 ppm o
20:21:41  <Rubidium> DDR: before uranium they probably didn't have a need for armour piercing rounds of that strength
20:22:10  <DDR> I'm pretty sure they did.
20:22:28  <DDR> We've never been short of stuff we want to shoot through, but can't. ;)
20:23:22  <frosch123> i guess lead is most common
20:23:26  <Rubidium> previously the idea was bigger is better
20:23:37  <frosch123> likely lead is even more dangerous than uranium
20:23:41  <Rubidium> and precision kinda sucked
20:23:43  <DDR> Nup.
20:23:50  <DDR> I've got lead in my basement.
20:23:51  <frosch123> i would think that that lead is easier washed away by water
20:24:08  <DDR> It's pretty much OK, as long as you don't eat it... it is sweet-flavoured, though.
20:24:15  <DDR> So I've always wanted to try some.
20:24:51  <Rubidium> DDR: so lead is safe if you don't ingest/inhale it and uranium is unsafe when you ingest/inhale it
20:25:06  <Rubidium> that doesn't quite mean one is safer than the other
20:25:41  <DDR> Well, it's hard to inhale lead, it being rather solid and all.
20:25:48  <frosch123> lol
20:25:52  <DDR> I mean, you can make a fairly safe water pipe out of it...
20:26:05  <DDR> but when you use it to season your wine, it's kinda poisonous.
20:26:11  <frosch123> poiling point of lead is 2000K, uranium has 4000K
20:26:16  <DDR> So the romans found out.
20:26:30  <DDR> But the burning point is what makes it piercing.
20:26:31  <frosch123> a uranium water pipe is likely a lot better than a lead water pipe
20:26:44  <DDR> It doesn't matter *what* the boiling point is...
20:26:50  <DDR> frosch123: You're off your rocker.
20:27:26  <DDR> You'd be getting irradiated water versus normal water, pretty much.
20:27:40  <DDR> Lead doesn't poision stuff by being around it. It's a metal. It mostly just sits there.
20:28:00  <frosch123> well, that way my point all the time
20:28:11  <frosch123> both lead and uranium are toxic because they are heavy metals
20:28:29  <frosch123> and the radiation of u238 is neglibe compared to the toxicness
20:28:50  <DDR> Uranium is toxic primarily because it's fucking radioactive. The fact that it's a heavy metal is just an added anti-bonus.
20:28:56  <frosch123> and lead does exactly that: it poisons by just sitting around
20:29:13  <DDR> So does Uranium, to a much greater degree.
20:29:23  <DDR> Like, I can eat quite a lot of lead before it kills me.
20:29:33  <frosch123> DDR: uranium is barely radioactive
20:29:39  <Rubidium> DDR: http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q1906.html
20:29:39  <DDR> But I don't have to eat so much uranium.
20:30:04  <DDR> Not the natural ore, but I we're going in to this with depleted uranium, so it's still pretty radioactive.
20:31:05  <Rubidium> DDR: "Of ingested inorganic lead, about 15% is absorbed, but this percentage is higher in children, pregnant women, and people with deficiencies of calcium, zinc, or iron"
20:31:13  <DDR> Not only that, but at the point the uranium has been used -- it's transformed into tiny inert particles the body can't get rid of.
20:31:22  <Rubidium> so, you adsorb 15 times more lead than uranium when ingesting it!
20:31:30  <DDR> Hunh, I didn't know that.
20:31:35  <Rubidium> furthermore, uranium is barely radioactive
20:31:44  <DDR> Not after you enrich it.
20:31:56  <frosch123> it's depleted
20:31:57  <Rubidium> DDR: Radium is over one million times as radioactive as the same mass of uranium
20:32:06  <Sacro> and how does that compare to Rubidium
20:32:12  <DDR> It's still quite radioactive, it's not depleted all the way.
20:33:14  <Rubidium> DDR: fun fact: my highschool teacher taught us that radium was in the walls
20:33:47  <DDR> Ever been to radium hot springs? It's a town around here... they get a fair buildup of natural radioactive gas in places.
20:34:10  <Rubidium> DDR: no, still... radium is a million times more radioactive than uranium
20:34:17  <DDR> To the point it's actually a bit of a problem, in places.
20:34:26  <Rubidium> so if the hot springs are safe, then uranium is even safer
20:34:29  <andythenorth> radium or radon?
20:34:42  <DDR> Yes, but again, we're not shooting uranium-the-rock.
20:35:01  <DDR> we're shooting uranium-the-metal-which-was-just-inside-a-nuclear-reactor.
20:35:15  <DDR> It's not depleted all the way, just out of useful reacting life I think.
20:35:23  <DDR> andythenorth: radon.
20:35:36  <andythenorth> loads of that in the uk
20:36:28  <DDR> Hunh.
20:37:15  <DDR> frosch123: To clear something up, just because it's depleted doesn't mean it's not dangerously radioactive.
20:38:52  <Rubidium> DDR: to have the same radioactivity (geigercounter) you need:
20:39:18  <DDR> andythenorth: iirc, on the first day of the american invasion of iraq, ambient airborne radiation in Britan spiked something like fourfold.
20:40:05  <Rubidium> @calc 4.468*1000*1000*1000*365/3.8235
20:40:05  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 426525434811.0
20:40:21  <Rubidium> roughly that many times more Uranium atoms than Radon (gas) atoms
20:40:23  <DDR> Rubidium: ?
20:40:25  <FLHerne> DDR: But was it at significant levels anyway?
20:40:48  <FLHerne> http://xkcd.com/radiation/
20:40:50  <andythenorth> radon is a killer in the uk
20:40:51  <DDR> I can't remember. :/
20:41:06  <FLHerne> May be useful
20:42:09  <DDR> FLHerne: I think it was still pretty much safe.
20:42:37  <DDR> But, since that was almost undoubtedly coming from Iraq, I'd think that the radioactivity in-country would be much greater.
20:43:51  <frosch123> DDR: depleted uranium has less u235 and u234 than natural uranium, which results in depleted uranium having 60% of the radioactivity of natural uranium
20:44:25  <DDR> Hunh. I'd think it would still be as radioactive as the nuclear facility it came out of.
20:44:34  <frosch123> actually, this is kind of obvious... if it would have higher radiation than natural uranium, then it would be prefered for enrichtment over natural
20:45:04  <DDR> Hm, I guess so.
20:45:21  <Rubidium> DDR: the radioactivity isn't in the uranium, bit in the crap coming from uranium after fission
20:45:42  <DDR> Ah. Knew I was missing something...
20:45:58  <DDR> I didn't take good notes, this conversation just sort of happened. :P
20:46:19  <andythenorth> hmm
20:46:25  <andythenorth> CHIPS has 6666 downloads
20:46:40  <andythenorth> is that bad?  or irrelevant?
20:46:47  <CornishPasty> 1 more and it will be IRC!
20:48:15  <DDR> oo, chips... chips is good...
20:48:29  * CornishPasty steals DDR's chips
20:48:45  <DDR> MAH CHIPS! NOOOOO!
20:48:49  <CornishPasty> Bwahahhahaa
20:48:58  <DDR> *falls to his knees* Why?
20:49:03  <andythenorth> ach, no bundles server :P
20:52:04  <FLHerne> Is it possible for an industry to start producing an extra cargo after a certain date?
20:52:14  <andythenorth> yes, but it's confusing
20:52:24  <andythenorth> it will cause bug reports
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20:54:12  <FLHerne> Then you could have waste collection centres producing household waste, and then later recyclables as well
20:54:54  <FLHerne> Add power stations, and recycling depots could produce biomass. Also coal to powerstations
20:57:31  <DDR> That'd be neat...
20:57:38  * Wolf01 silently goes to bed
20:57:43  <Rubidium> night Wolf01
20:57:52  <Wolf01> 'night all
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20:59:12  <Terkhen> good night
20:59:17  <Rubidium> night Terkhen
21:00:20  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Did you raise farm production? It seems higher than before
21:01:52  <andythenorth> can't remember
21:02:46  <andythenorth> I added randomisation, that will give higher initial values for farms in some cases
21:03:06  <FLHerne> I have an uninfluenced Arable Farm producing 126 tonnes/month... :D
21:03:15  <andythenorth> plausible
21:03:18  <FLHerne> Good for profit :-)
21:03:36  <FLHerne> Before it would be 16, if I remember...
21:04:00  <andythenorth> plausible too
21:05:57  <andythenorth> good night
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21:06:02  <FLHerne> Night
21:06:07  <FLHerne> Aargh, late
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21:41:48  <frosch123> night
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