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00:03:42 *** Progman [~progman@87.161.181.252] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:11:21 <Wolf01> 'night 00:11:24 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@95.232.234.29] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 00:20:47 *** Chrill [~chrischri@c83-253-89-11.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #openttd 00:36:10 *** brambles [xymox@grip.espace-win.org] has joined #openttd 00:44:25 *** brambles [xymox@grip.espace-win.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:44:54 *** brambles [xymox@grip.espace-win.org] has joined #openttd 00:50:13 *** roadt_ [~roadt@60.168.81.76] has joined #openttd 00:52:27 *** Elukka [Elukka@78-27-97-92.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 01:02:53 *** Nat_aS [~Shep@00179a279bbd.click-network.com] has joined #openttd 01:05:02 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:10:22 *** Dr_Tan [~Shep@00179a279bbd.click-network.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:18:23 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-077-031.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [] 01:23:17 *** NataS [~Shep@00179a279bbd.click-network.com] has joined #openttd 01:30:44 *** Nat_aS [~Shep@00179a279bbd.click-network.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:35:04 *** KouDy [~KouDy@115.133.8.65] has joined #openttd 01:48:02 *** Sleepie [~Sleepie@p50846C6B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: lost in space...] 01:56:40 *** cyph3r [~Miranda@ip-78-45-94-1.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 02:00:21 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:a1ba:af81:6f1b:6982] has quit [Quit: bye] 02:00:51 *** Supercheese [~chatzilla@50-37-107-36.mscw.id.frontiernet.net] has joined #openttd 02:46:14 *** Dr_Tan [~Shep@00179a279bbd.click-network.com] has joined #openttd 02:53:08 *** NataS [~Shep@00179a279bbd.click-network.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:15:31 *** Supercheese [~chatzilla@50-37-107-36.mscw.id.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 14.0.1/20120713134347]] 03:26:46 *** xQR [xor@the.x-base.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:57:31 *** Diablo [~chatzilla@122-61-157-205.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #openttd 04:01:01 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6A1BF.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 04:05:07 <Diablo> hi 04:07:48 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@i59F6CDB0.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:10:07 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has joined #openttd 04:12:31 <Diablo> !rules 04:23:38 *** Diablo [~chatzilla@122-61-157-205.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 14.0.1/20120713134347]] 04:36:46 *** Diablo [~chatzilla@122-61-157-205.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #openttd 04:40:39 *** Chrill [~chrischri@c83-253-89-11.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [] 04:40:42 *** Diablo [~chatzilla@122-61-157-205.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [] 04:41:01 *** Diablo [~chatzilla@122-61-157-205.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #openttd 04:41:08 *** Diablo [~chatzilla@122-61-157-205.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [] 04:43:40 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p5DC66CCD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 04:43:55 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD4459.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 05:38:05 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d172-218-2-5.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 05:44:24 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@78.96.213.97] has joined #openttd 05:48:59 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 05:59:17 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@95.232.234.29] has joined #openttd 05:59:54 <Wolf01> hello 06:06:51 <Rubidium> 'ola 06:14:26 <Wolf01> uhm, I'm trying to open the in-line volume control of my stereo headpohones because it has a false contact, I can't find a weak spot, I think I'll resort to violence 06:25:44 *** pjpe [b8af1d68@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 06:26:38 <Wolf01> opened! the good new is that the cables are ok, the bad new is that the problem seem to be the trimmer :( 06:30:36 *** Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 06:30:39 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 06:31:06 <Wolf01> hello Alberth 06:32:47 <Alberth> hi Wolf01 06:33:17 <Alberth> it's quiet, no new posts in the openttd forums even 06:38:20 *** telanus [~telanus@196-215-191-115.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #openttd 06:45:02 <Rubidium> Alberth: then continue with zbase and let your computer make some noise 06:48:17 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-79-163.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 06:54:02 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-35-246.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:55:16 <Alberth> that would be mostly the fan, as building zbasebuild takes ages :) 06:55:48 *** Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 06:57:14 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host81-148-241-245.range81-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 06:57:47 <Alberth> o/ LordAro 06:57:57 <LordAro> hai Alberth 07:28:15 *** linux_probe [~chris@cpe-75-185-177-160.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 07:33:56 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 13.0.1/20120614114901]] 08:06:08 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f7d11.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 08:06:43 *** telanus1 [~telanus@196-215-191-115.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #openttd 08:07:21 <Terkhen> good morning 08:10:21 *** telanus [~telanus@196-215-191-115.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:15:13 *** telanus2 [~telanus@196-215-191-115.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #openttd 08:19:18 *** telanus1 [~telanus@196-215-191-115.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:33:58 *** Sleepie [~Sleepie@p50846478.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 08:34:12 <Sleepie> moin 08:38:07 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host81-154-231-254.range81-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 08:39:23 *** TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has joined #openttd 08:39:58 *** flaa [~flaa@188.141.45.124] has joined #openttd 08:52:00 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1A523.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 08:53:49 *** Markavian [~Markavian@78-105-168-146.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 08:54:57 *** roadt_ [~roadt@60.168.81.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:59:37 *** Markavian` [~Markavian@78-105-168-146.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:01:26 *** roadt_ [~roadt@60.168.81.76] has joined #openttd 09:05:16 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-139-40.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 09:05:19 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ 09:11:02 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-79-163.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:18:34 *** roadt_ [~roadt@60.168.81.76] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:29:22 <planetmaker> moin 09:40:50 <dihedral> oi 09:44:05 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d161-184-227-133.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: Rhamphoryncus] 09:44:17 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 09:44:49 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host81-154-231-254.range81-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:46:48 <frosch123> hmm, what debian package might contain /usr/include/mysql/mysql.h 09:47:11 <frosch123> libmysqlclient-dev maybe 09:47:40 <frosch123> hmm, oh, i already have that file 09:48:21 <frosch123> no, i do not... wrong window 09:50:46 <frosch123> yay, success 09:51:05 <Alberth> just switch windows until you find it :) 09:55:05 <frosch123> does svn 1.7 support externals for single files meanwhile? 10:02:47 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4d082098.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 10:05:12 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has left #openttd [] 10:05:14 <Rubidium> frosch123: http://packages.debian.org/search?searchon=contents&keywords=%2Fusr%2Finclude%2Fmysql%2Fmysql.h&mode=path&suite=stable&arch=any 10:05:33 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 10:06:20 <Rubidium> though it doesn't seem to exist for sid; it does exist for wheezy and experimental 10:10:54 <Sleepie> frosch123: http://tortoisesvn.net/docs/nightly/TortoiseSVN_en/tsvn-dug-externals.html <- from there it says yes, but only in th same repo, no inter-repo support, see last paragraph 10:11:02 <Sleepie> +e 10:12:55 *** cyph3r [~Miranda@ip-78-45-94-1.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 10:13:43 <frosch123> symbolic links are already supported by svn 1.4 10:13:57 <frosch123> but that's not an external 10:18:08 <Sleepie> yes more a kind of internal 10:19:54 <Alberth> If 1.6 didn't have it, I wouldn't expect it in 1.7, they have problems enough removing all .svn directores in all sub-root directories 10:21:28 <Sleepie> which is fortunately the case since 1.7 10:27:36 <frosch123> ottd 0.7 looks awkward 10:28:42 <Alberth> :) 10:28:57 <Alberth> try 0.6, it has a funny AI 10:32:39 *** Arafangion [~Arafangio@220-244-108-23.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #openttd 10:41:37 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-078-012.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 10:53:28 *** flaa [~flaa@188.141.45.124] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:53:59 <Alberth> FLHerne: your harbour picture in the CHIPS thread seems to suggest to me you want concrete under your rail tracks 11:01:57 <FLHerne> Alberth: Between the rails in CHIPS? Or is that a comment on NuTracks ballast? Or both? :P 11:02:52 <Alberth> under the diagonal tracks + crossings north of the ship depot 11:03:47 <FLHerne> Not really - that's a 3rd-rail electrified mainline :P 11:03:58 <Sleepie> maybe even only under the diagonals 11:04:04 <FLHerne> Would be useless as a loading pad :P 11:04:19 <Sleepie> just eyecandy 11:04:37 <FLHerne> I'd like half-tile triangles to fit between the station and mainline though :-) 11:04:41 <Alberth> you see often rail tracks fully embedded in the pavement in industrial areas 11:05:08 <FLHerne> Alberth: Yes, but not 90mph mainlines :P 11:05:16 <Alberth> :) 11:05:20 <FLHerne> That would be dangerous :-( 11:05:40 <Alberth> the concrete may jump up :p 11:06:01 <FLHerne> People would step on the 3rd-rail, too... 11:06:10 <Sleepie> ouch.. 11:06:12 <Alberth> yeah, not a good idea 11:07:42 * FLHerne considers triangle-overlapping tiles 11:07:52 <FLHerne> Worthwhile? 11:08:26 <Alberth> I never make eye-candy, so don't ask me :) 11:08:33 <Sleepie> would look more pleasing imho 11:09:08 <FLHerne> Ok. Should be easy to draw. Was short of object ideas anyway :P 11:09:17 * FLHerne goes out to walk the rat 11:09:29 <FLHerne> See you later :-) 11:09:45 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has left #openttd [] 11:33:27 <LordAro> wait, what? 11:41:06 * Alberth waits 11:50:56 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 11:51:16 <FLHerne> Back :-) 11:53:51 <FLHerne> It's finally stopped raining :D 11:54:47 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host81-148-241-245.range81-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:55:12 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host81-148-241-245.range81-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 11:55:56 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host81-148-241-245.range81-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:56:21 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host81-148-241-245.range81-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 11:59:00 <Alberth> wb :) 11:59:09 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host81-148-241-245.range81-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:59:29 <Alberth> FLHerne: what I think it needs are stacks of things and stuff. The docks are way too clean 11:59:37 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host81-148-241-245.range81-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 12:00:26 <FLHerne> Alberth: That's only because the train just left :P 12:01:27 <Alberth> it did not even leave empty pallets? 12:02:38 <FLHerne> Tell andythenorth to make it do that, then...? 12:03:08 <Alberth> I remembered someone had run out of objects to draw :p 12:04:08 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host81-148-241-245.range81-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:04:18 <FLHerne> But objects can't measure cargo waiting at all, that's a station kind of thing 12:04:45 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host81-148-241-245.range81-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 12:04:51 <Alberth> some stacks are part of the docks :p 12:05:08 <FLHerne> That's a dock thing, then :P 12:05:20 <Alberth> oh, fishing nets can be added too 12:05:54 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:51db:2d28:e806:629a] has joined #openttd 12:05:57 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 12:08:04 *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@dsl-149-87-36.hive.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:09:24 *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@dsl-149-87-36.hive.is] has joined #openttd 12:09:38 <Sleepie> and I would also overbuild the left shores in the habour 12:11:50 <FLHerne> Still a dock thing. I'm just using/modifying/drawing variations of various sprites from CHIPS & FIRS and recoding them as objects 12:12:07 <FLHerne> Sleepie Exactly for that reason :P 12:12:37 <FLHerne> CHIPS can't do that, that's why I need to finish doing the objects :P 12:12:50 <Alberth> 'various sprites' don't have cargo lying around? 12:12:58 <Sleepie> cool 12:14:21 <FLHerne> Alberth: They do. andythenorth has them for 'amount of cargo waiting' in CHIPS 12:14:49 <FLHerne> That picture demonstrates the need for NewObjects, not their use :P 12:15:50 <Sleepie> yep the only downside is that the list of newgrfs loaded gets longer and longer until you reach the current limit 12:16:34 <Sleepie> which afaik cannot be lifted, because it would break multiplayer 12:17:20 <FLHerne> Chill's PP has a much higher limit, and doesn't break multiplayer :P 12:17:54 <Sleepie> I don't know never played CPP 12:17:56 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1A523.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:18:54 <frosch123> FLHerne: ofc it does 12:19:27 <FLHerne> frosch123: How so? 12:19:46 <frosch123> it will only transmit the first part of the grfs and drop the other ones 12:19:54 <frosch123> so, once you use too many grfs, multiplayer will fail 12:20:12 <Sleepie> because it only uses one packet for it iirc 12:20:33 <frosch123> more specifically a udp packet 12:20:41 <Sleepie> yep 12:20:53 <FLHerne> In that case, add separate limits for single-player games and servers? :P 12:20:54 <frosch123> though maybe it only breaks the server list 12:21:09 <Sleepie> so question is can this be changed "easyly" 12:21:34 <Sleepie> or what FLHerne said 12:21:35 <Alberth> FLHerne: you don't want to have different game files for SP and MP, I think 12:21:49 <Sleepie> fair enough Alberth 12:21:58 <frosch123> Sleepie: experience tells that everyone who reaches the newgrf limit does not know what he is doing with them 12:22:07 <frosch123> it's like the mapsize limit 12:22:19 <frosch123> there are some people requesting 16kx16k maps 12:22:25 <frosch123> while 2kx2k is already utterly useless 12:22:47 <FLHerne> Alberth: Keep the files identical, but forbid loading ones with >x NewGrfs on a server 12:23:13 <Alberth> FLHerne: how? a savegame contains references to all loaded newgrfs 12:23:13 <FLHerne> frosch123: I hit the limit, and I know what I'm doing with them :P 12:23:31 <Sleepie> frosch123: personally I think that was true in the past, but now there are a lot of little grfs popping up 12:23:58 <Alberth> FLHerne: as said, I don't think you want some magically unloadable files just because you use them in a different context 12:24:31 <Sleepie> and even if they are just eyecandy you can reach the limit quite fast without loading everything available 12:24:36 *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@dsl-149-87-36.hive.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:25:25 <FLHerne> Alberth: Add a parameter for 'max SP NewGRFs', at MP limit by default? 12:25:41 <frosch123> anyway, noone stepped up to even fix fs#5158 12:25:47 <FLHerne> Then it wouldn't confuse people, especially with these fancy description strings :P 12:26:00 <FLHerne> @fs 5158 12:26:00 <DorpsGek> FLHerne: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5158 12:26:20 <Alberth> FLHerne: x.sav by itself does not show whether it is loadable in MP 12:26:25 *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@dsl-149-87-36.hive.is] has joined #openttd 12:27:27 <FLHerne> Alberth: It doesn't show that it needs obsure_unavailable_thingum_v283.grf either :P 12:27:28 <Alberth> But the problem is better solved by a fundamental fix than this hacking into different types of save games 12:28:10 <Alberth> FLHerne: yeah, it's bad, I'd like to fix that too, let's throw away newgrfs 12:28:26 <Alberth> which by the way solves your loading problem nicely too 12:28:36 <frosch123> just restrict loading of newgrfs to a single one 12:28:44 <Alberth> the baseset :D 12:28:52 <frosch123> one baseset, one newgrf, one gs, one ai 12:29:04 <FLHerne> Alberth: Removes the developers' excuse of 'that can be done in a convoluted way by NewGRFs' though :P 12:29:06 <Sleepie> then the baseset must be extended massively :P 12:30:10 <Sleepie> for it would help if many of the little grfs could be combined just to a few ones 12:30:27 <Sleepie> +now 12:31:22 <Alberth> it probably gets terribly complicated, much more than fixing the limit would be my guess 12:32:15 <Sleepie> yeah probably, also all people involved must be willing to work together on a bigger thing and so on 12:33:13 <Sleepie> Alberth: what do you think how complicated the change in the network code would be? 12:33:36 <Alberth> I don't know at all 12:34:24 <Alberth> You'd have to allow for receiving several UDP packets, with just some of the newgrfs. You can have some missing, and receive some double 12:35:13 <Alberth> you need a mechanism to know how many to expect, and a check whether you got all 12:35:58 <Sleepie> ok so there should be already things that work that way 12:36:34 <Alberth> I don't even know why it uses UDP instead of TCP 12:36:48 <Sleepie> maybe I should look myself at the network code 12:36:48 <Alberth> which would seem easier to me at first sight 12:37:16 <Sleepie> maybe because it works better with weaker connections 12:37:47 <Alberth> how would that be? 12:37:51 <frosch123> Alberth: it's about queryiing all servers without authentication 12:38:32 <Alberth> ah, ok, that explains using UDP :) 12:39:27 <Alberth> Sleepie: so a bunch of UDP packets gives nice options for a DOS attack 12:40:17 <Sleepie> yep 12:40:35 *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@dsl-149-87-36.hive.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:42:25 *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@dsl-149-87-36.hive.is] has joined #openttd 12:45:48 <Rubidium> actually, I think a ChillPP MP server with too many NewGRFs will hit an assert, or if it doesn't, never advertise properly 12:47:12 <Rubidium> Alberth: the limit is fixed ;) 12:48:01 <Rubidium> and with the nature of UDP, receiving multiple packets from another party without packet loss is significantly less likely 12:48:03 <Alberth> I was not going to unfix it ;) 12:48:36 * FLHerne wanders off 12:48:44 <FLHerne> Stuff to do :P 12:48:56 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host81-148-241-245.range81-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:49:01 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has left #openttd [] 12:49:03 <Rubidium> and it uses UDP because a certain operating system has/had a limit of connections that could be made with a single binary (in the non-server version) 12:49:38 <Rubidium> which meant that a server wouldn't be visible anymore after a few hours 12:49:55 <Rubidium> but there is a relatively easy way to solve the whole issue. Just increase the MTU of the internet 12:50:03 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc10-linl9-2-0-cust80.18-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 12:51:01 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host81-148-241-245.range81-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 12:53:11 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host81-154-231-254.range81-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 12:55:20 <frosch123> Rubidium: submit a patch to the internet authority 12:57:00 *** cyph3r [~Miranda@ip-78-45-94-1.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 13:04:51 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-33-118.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:30:35 <Sleepie> tea time see you later 13:30:40 *** Sleepie [~Sleepie@p50846478.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: lost in space...] 13:52:22 <Wolf01> me too 13:59:17 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-25-144-96.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 14:01:20 *** andythenorth [~Andy@host86-130-20-84.range86-130.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 14:09:51 <andythenorth> can we script map gen? 14:14:06 <Alberth> would that give anything more sane results? 14:15:11 <andythenorth> tie it to GS 14:15:13 <andythenorth> as a dep 14:15:22 <andythenorth> 'generate 2 large cities for this GS' 14:15:27 <andythenorth> etc 14:31:00 <Eddi|zuHause> no, but you should be able to found towns afterwards if there are not enough 14:32:31 <andythenorth> meh 14:32:35 <andythenorth> can I remove towns as well? :P 14:41:22 *** M1zera [~Miranda@ip-78-102-217-126.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 14:46:56 <MNIM> sadly, not without the scenario editor 14:54:00 <andythenorth> quiet here 14:55:16 *** M1zera [~Miranda@ip-78-102-217-126.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 14:57:59 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: your better bet is to just make a scenario for such a special case 14:58:29 <andythenorth> I made a scenario once 14:58:30 <andythenorth> never again 14:58:47 <andythenorth> the most boring thing....ever 14:59:21 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host81-154-231-254.range81-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 14.0/20120710123126]] 14:59:23 <Alberth> at least it is done faster than coding a baseset :p 15:00:46 <andythenorth> coding is interesting 15:01:01 <andythenorth> hmm 15:01:08 <andythenorth> I might have a few hours of coding time this weekened 15:01:25 * andythenorth considers: nml FISH, or start a GS project? 15:01:35 <Alberth> you know a base set is just real srpites, right? :) 15:01:44 <Alberth> *sprites 15:01:49 <andythenorth> I have edited opengfx yes ;) 15:01:55 <andythenorth> GS, I need a buddy 15:02:00 <andythenorth> FISH less so :P 15:02:29 <andythenorth> I have 3 or 4 GS ideas 15:03:32 <Alberth> that's too much for a few hours coding 15:03:54 <andythenorth> I was only proposing to do one of them :P 15:04:19 <Alberth> btw, I just read a page at the Django site, looks interesting to try one time 15:04:36 <andythenorth> Bananasaasas 15:04:53 <planetmaker> bananasssssss. my preciousssss 15:12:30 <andythenorth> I have GS ideas like: 15:13:02 <andythenorth> - metro: build a city network capable of transporting x passengers per year 15:13:36 <andythenorth> - transcontinental: build west from a large east coast city to the other coast (large empty-ish map needed) 15:14:52 <andythenorth> - air mogul: become the biggest airline on the map by 1950 (starts before planes are are available, so have to begin with trains etc) 15:16:21 <Alberth> hmm, we could have lots of small islands that you have to bridge. Then you cannot have bridges over tracks. 15:17:22 <Alberth> how is "transcontinental" interesting, just a drag/drop to the other side is enough, isn't it? 15:17:35 <andythenorth> very tight time limit 15:17:46 <Alberth> build while paused :p 15:17:50 <andythenorth> start with only one large city in the east, few industries 15:18:06 <andythenorth> could limit amount of rail allowed to be built 15:18:20 <Alberth> could be interesting if there is a large gap in between where you cannot put much tracks 15:18:31 <andythenorth> there are quite a few transcontinental scenarios in railroad tycoon, they're fun 15:18:52 <andythenorth> I am most interested in scenarios that take 1-3 hours to play 15:19:33 * andythenorth ponders some more 15:21:45 <Alberth> afk for dinner 15:22:03 * andythenorth should learn what GS can do, instead of guessing :P 15:22:34 <Alberth> http://nogo.openttd.org/api/ 15:22:47 <andythenorth> thanks 15:23:10 * andythenorth thinks 'less' might be the way to go 15:23:17 <andythenorth> the vehicle sets and industry sets have become huge 15:23:24 <andythenorth> but bigger != more fun 15:23:51 <andythenorth> none of the big newgrf games I've played have been as much fun as the first games I played with vanilla openttd 15:24:10 <andythenorth> but...bigger = more scope for a GS that only uses parts of stuff 15:37:04 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24427 /trunk/config.lib: -Change: allow passing C(XX)- and LDFLAGS to the compilation of helper binaries such as depend, strgen and settingsgen 15:44:09 *** andythenorth [~Andy@host86-130-20-84.range86-130.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:58:02 *** APTX [APTX@2001:470:1f0b:1a9d:240:63ff:fefb:5994] has joined #openttd 16:00:13 *** andythenorth [~Andy@host86-130-20-84.range86-130.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 16:00:20 *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@dsl-149-87-36.hive.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:01:55 *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@dsl-149-87-36.hive.is] has joined #openttd 16:21:08 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 16:23:18 *** flaa [~flaa@188.141.45.124] has joined #openttd 16:25:39 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host81-154-231-254.range81-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 16:29:17 *** M1zera [~Miranda@ip-78-102-217-126.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 16:37:14 *** KingJ [~KingJ-OFT@95.154.197.17] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 16:38:17 * andythenorth tries to find docs for nml BITMASK() 16:38:27 <andythenorth> maybe I read the source 16:38:35 *** KingJ [~KingJ-OFT@95.154.197.17] has joined #openttd 16:39:34 <Alberth> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Builtin_functions 16:39:44 <Alberth> but it's not that clear :) 16:40:23 <andythenorth> trying to figure out bitmask(CC_LIQUID) 16:40:25 <Alberth> bitmask(0, 4, 5) == 0011 0001 16:40:35 <andythenorth> ok 16:40:43 <andythenorth> so bitmask(CC_LIQUID) sets the liquid bit 16:40:46 <Alberth> ie 1 << CC_LIQUID this 16:40:47 <andythenorth> fine 16:40:49 <Alberth> *thus 16:41:04 <andythenorth> in some limited cases, nfo is much easier :P 16:41:08 <andythenorth> no abstraction to deal with 16:41:36 <andythenorth> putting convenience around the bitmask makes it harder to remember / deduce what the bitmask is doing 16:41:38 <Alberth> but you have to encode to 0x31 :) 16:42:05 <Alberth> iirc nml also has <<, so use that instead 16:42:05 <andythenorth> so if I wanted to check a cargo had classe liquid, and only liquid? 16:42:24 <andythenorth> all other bits must be clear 16:43:02 <Alberth> value == bitmask(CC_LIQUID) 16:43:23 <Alberth> assuming 'value' is only cargo classes 16:43:57 <andythenorth> actually nvm 16:43:57 <andythenorth> theoretical question atm 16:44:20 <Alberth> ie you want exactly the value with that one bit 16:46:03 <andythenorth> hmm 16:46:13 <andythenorth> that explains why some cargos are refitting to tanker 16:48:27 <andythenorth> so in nfo I would 'just' mask the other bits out and check for liquid bit 16:48:27 <andythenorth> I need to do the same in nml 16:48:27 <andythenorth> the issue is vehicles that should be tanker if liquid class is present 16:48:27 <andythenorth> not iff liquid is the only class 16:50:27 <andythenorth> typo above * some cargos _aren't_ refitting to tanker :P 16:50:30 <Alberth> then you want (vaue and bitmask(CC_LIQUID)) != 0 , ie throw away all bits not in the bitmask, and then you should still have some bits left 16:51:06 <andythenorth> perhaps I need multiple switches in that case 16:51:10 <Alberth> and since you started with 1 bit, 'some bits left' is also 1 bit :) 16:51:36 <michi_cc> And 'value & bitmask(a,b) == bitmask(a,b)' just in case you want to test if two bits are set at the same time. 16:53:57 <Alberth> the 'and' operation forces all other bits to 0 (ie all bits that you mask away), so you can predict what to compare against 17:02:20 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host81-154-231-254.range81-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:03:12 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host81-154-231-254.range81-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 17:05:00 *** M1zera [~Miranda@ip-78-102-217-126.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 17:13:23 *** KouDy [~KouDy@115.133.8.65] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:18:22 *** M1zera [~Miranda@ip-78-102-217-126.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 17:21:44 <andythenorth> so masking in nfo is easy 17:21:50 <andythenorth> but I am baffled by how to do this in nml 17:22:05 <andythenorth> presumably in the switch somewhere 17:25:24 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1AB54.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 17:26:23 *** M1zera [~Miranda@ip-78-102-217-126.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:30:03 <michi_cc> andythenorth: By literally writing a & 17:30:14 *** M1zera [~Miranda@ip-78-102-217-126.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 17:30:34 <andythenorth> cargo_classes_in_consist & some_value ? 17:30:50 <michi_cc> Yes. And that some value is your bitmask. 17:31:29 * andythenorth tests 17:32:29 <andythenorth> hmm 17:32:55 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: translators * r24428 /trunk/src/lang/ (brazilian_portuguese.txt korean.txt): 17:32:55 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:32:55 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: korean - 26 changes by telk5093 17:32:55 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 6 changes by Tucalipe 17:33:45 * andythenorth seeks the & operator in nml 17:34:08 <planetmaker> look for "&" 17:34:42 <planetmaker> value = variable & 0x00F0 17:35:04 <andythenorth> how do I create an expression? 17:35:11 <andythenorth> docs tell me only the operators 17:35:21 <andythenorth> I have to wrap it in parentheses? 17:35:51 <Alberth> the normal operator expression priorities apply 17:36:02 <Alberth> ie 1 + 2 * 3 == 1 + (2 * 3) 17:36:14 <andythenorth> using && gets me an nml error 17:36:24 <andythenorth> it expands it to an html entity 17:36:32 <planetmaker> && applies to boolean only 17:36:51 <planetmaker> that's your pre-processor which fails there then 17:37:01 <andythenorth> o/c 17:37:15 <Alberth> hi planetmaker :) 17:37:37 <planetmaker> salut Alberth 17:38:49 <Alberth> as far as I can see, there seem to be mostly terrain and track sprites left, and stations 17:40:51 * andythenorth wonders wtf the templater is escaping non-templated things 17:45:33 <andythenorth> hmm 17:45:37 <andythenorth> this is a showstopper :P 17:55:21 *** TWerkhoven[l] [~twerkhove@cpc10-linl9-2-0-cust80.18-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 17:58:26 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc10-linl9-2-0-cust80.18-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 18:03:54 <andythenorth> ho ho 18:04:01 <andythenorth> ugly, but...meh :P 18:04:39 <andythenorth> grf_nml.write('&&'.join(master_template(vehicles=vehicles, repo_vars=repo_vars).split('$AND'))) 18:06:58 <andythenorth> so what range is needed to check for 'true' with 'cargo_classes_in_consist && bitmask(CC_LIQUID)' 18:06:59 <andythenorth> ? 18:08:22 <andythenorth> I have tried 0, 1 and 255 as values 18:08:40 <Rubidium> doesn't that yield true whenever cargo_classes_in_consist is not 0? 18:09:12 <Rubidium> && != & 18:09:48 <andythenorth> yes, it does yield true 18:10:08 * andythenorth adjusts 18:13:36 <andythenorth> ok that works :) 18:13:36 <andythenorth> thanks 18:13:55 <TrueBrain> I hate weekends; they are so boring 18:15:48 <andythenorth> por quoi? 18:15:56 <TrueBrain> I am sorry, I speak no german 18:16:22 <Alberth> andy does not speak french, so that's a happy co-incidence :) 18:16:34 <andythenorth> bueno 18:17:33 <Eddi|zuHause> we should all speak esperanto like we're supposed to 18:18:02 <andythenorth> someone here probably does 18:18:31 <Eddi|zuHause> we used to have an esperanto translator 18:18:33 <andythenorth> is it madness that I have to use $AMPERSAND in my nml templates to get an & char? 18:18:46 <andythenorth> should I rip out the entire templating engine and start again? 18:19:02 *** Arafangion [~Arafangio@220-244-108-23.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:19:05 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you're probably just missing an escape character 18:20:05 <andythenorth> I tried all the ones listed 18:20:12 <andythenorth> I thought the same though 18:22:16 <andythenorth> this is ugly: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3136/subtypes_5.png 18:22:20 <andythenorth> I can't use string colours 18:22:21 <andythenorth> ideas? 18:22:52 <Eddi|zuHause> why not? 18:23:20 <andythenorth> vehicle info window http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3132/subtypes_4v.png 18:24:18 <Eddi|zuHause> that doesn't look bad 18:24:43 <FLHerne> That second one looks much better :-) 18:25:13 <andythenorth> I could use cyan 18:25:21 <andythenorth> which would hide the vehicle info window problem 18:25:33 <andythenorth> can i have a guarantee that vehicle info window text colour won't change? 18:25:40 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host81-154-231-254.range81-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:25:45 <FLHerne> Why is that a problem? 18:26:24 <Alberth> andythenorth: a tree-like list? 18:26:37 <FLHerne> Makes the 'in cabins' bit easier to ignore - which is fine since it's not relevant anyway :P 18:27:22 <andythenorth> it's wrong and ugly 18:27:27 <planetmaker> why do you need that guarantee? 18:27:45 <andythenorth> don't want to change the vehicle info window appearance unexpectedly 18:27:52 * andythenorth may be being too pedantic 18:28:37 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i don't see your problem... 18:28:59 * Alberth will ask permission for any vehicle window change 18:29:02 <andythenorth> the wrong colour sticks out like a sore thumb to me 18:29:12 <andythenorth> but seems I notice these things more than average 18:29:30 <Alberth> that's what we hired you for :) 18:30:09 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think grey works well 18:30:45 <Eddi|zuHause> the hyphen needs a better idea though 18:30:58 <Eddi|zuHause> or at least another space :) 18:32:27 <FLHerne> andythenorth: It's not 'the wrong colour', it's 'a useful idea to make unneeded information less obtrusive' :P 18:37:21 <andythenorth> it's more intrusive 18:37:22 *** telanus2 [~telanus@196-215-191-115.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:37:42 <andythenorth> making it a unique colour brings it forward as you try and parse the gestalt 18:37:45 * andythenorth use jargon :P 18:37:58 <andythenorth> unique colour = higher significance in cognition 18:38:02 <FLHerne> andythenorth: It isn't, it blends into the grey background nicely. Less contrast 18:38:51 *** masch [~quassel@big.masch.it] has joined #openttd 18:38:53 <masch> hi 18:39:10 <FLHerne> The break in colour makes it easier to parse, because it marks the end of the bit I care about 18:39:27 <masch> is there a description of the algorithm thats used for map generation? 18:39:41 <FLHerne> Otherwise the information I needed would be in the middle of the string 18:39:48 <Rubidium> masch: what part of map generation? 18:39:55 <masch> Rubidium: heightmap 18:40:32 <Rubidium> masch: there might be in tgp.cpp (source code); it has to do with Perlin noise 18:41:08 <masch> Rubidium: thanks, default libnoise perlin generates uncool maps that are impossible to display with minecraft 18:41:13 <masch> *openttd 18:41:23 <masch> WTF why did i say minecraft? my head.. 18:42:00 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the geek version of a freudian slip :p 18:42:20 <TrueBrain> Minecraft also uses perlin noise 18:42:37 <Eddi|zuHause> perlin noise is very boring for maps 18:42:57 <TrueBrain> I think OpenTTD does an epic job, does it not? :) 18:42:59 <Eddi|zuHause> we need a tectonics map generator 18:43:37 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: plate tectonics? 18:43:38 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: it has been improved by the overlay functions that form flat and hilly areas 18:43:38 <TrueBrain> really? 18:43:40 <TrueBrain> lolz 18:43:44 <Rubidium> too bad TrueBrain didn't finish his map generator that uses very realistic tectonics ;) 18:43:46 <andythenorth> 'improved' 18:43:51 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: hehe :D 18:43:52 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: Not that epic :P 18:43:55 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: 3D perlin noise, yes :) 18:44:04 <andythenorth> if you want a decent map, first turn off 'variety distribution' 18:44:11 <masch> wow there is nice short introduction how perlin noise works. great 18:44:28 <andythenorth> actually.... 18:44:28 <andythenorth> if you want a decent map, load a heightmap :P 18:44:36 <FLHerne> It needs better links with river generation :P 18:44:40 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: it is too bad there is no meta information which is correct, in regards of rivers and lakes :( 18:44:47 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: the "original" perlin noise makes very "uniform" hill-valley maps. really boring as you can never build a straight track on them 18:44:55 <FLHerne> At the moment, rivers make no sense whatsoever 18:45:02 <andythenorth> +0. 18:45:05 <andythenorth> eh? 18:45:07 <andythenorth> +0.5 18:45:10 * andythenorth learns to type 18:45:17 <andythenorth> rivers make sense as eye candy 18:45:20 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: I guess it was a bit too noisy :P 18:45:22 <andythenorth> or things that you bulldoze 18:45:45 <FLHerne> They should have valleys, to make it easier to bridge them 18:46:03 <FLHerne> It looks silly to have one-tile-long hump bridges :P 18:46:07 *** Markavian` [~Markavian@78-105-168-146.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 18:46:09 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: we will await your patch ;) 18:46:41 <Rubidium> FLHerne: there are barely any rivers around here where you do not need to gain some elevation to cross it 18:46:54 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: no, they should have "flat" bridges (which makes them unpassable by ships) 18:47:03 <andythenorth> +1 18:47:15 <andythenorth> what? 18:47:17 <andythenorth> -1 18:47:18 <andythenorth> :P 18:47:26 <TrueBrain> nice going andythenorth :P 18:47:39 <andythenorth> I thought it was a nice idea 18:47:42 <andythenorth> very realistic 18:47:48 <andythenorth> then I remembered it will break gameplay :P 18:47:51 <FLHerne> Statemachine-controlled swing bridges? :D 18:47:56 <andythenorth> new ship prop: can pass under bridges 18:48:07 <TrueBrain> lol 18:48:18 <Rubidium> new bridge prop: can open for ships that can't pass under bridges 18:48:23 <TrueBrain> would be weird: this ship cannot go under this bridge, but this ship can hide inside that other ship 18:48:23 <andythenorth> new ship cb: can pass under bridges; new var: height of bridge 18:48:49 <andythenorth> ships can load into ships? :o 18:48:55 <TrueBrain> hide 18:48:58 <TrueBrain> as in: no collision :) 18:49:13 <Alberth> TrueBrain: nice implementation of multiple cargo bays :p 18:49:54 * andythenorth chooses cyan 18:49:55 <FLHerne> Minimum bridge heights for ships might actually be a good idea? 18:50:00 <andythenorth> so what to do about the '-' char? 18:50:11 <FLHerne> andythenorth: No, that will be a nuisance :-( 18:50:11 <TrueBrain> eat it 18:50:23 * andythenorth eats it 18:50:24 <andythenorth> better 18:50:37 <TrueBrain> I know right 18:50:49 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: traditionally cargo subtypes are put in parentheses 18:51:04 <andythenorth> there we go, done 18:51:05 <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3137/subtypes_6.png 18:51:14 <andythenorth> I tried parentheses, thought it looked silly 18:51:15 *** Markavian [~Markavian@78-105-168-146.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:51:17 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but if you use a hyphen, it must have spaces on both sides 18:51:17 <andythenorth> but point taken 18:51:24 <andythenorth> it did 18:51:28 <FLHerne> When I look at that window, I want to see the cargo and the capacity. I don't care about the 'fluff' :P 18:51:34 <andythenorth> but the font might not have rendered it very evenly 18:51:41 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that looks silly 18:51:57 <andythenorth> I'm adding parentheses back in 18:52:03 <FLHerne> Like that, it's difficult to parse either the subtype or the cargo, because both are in the same sentence and the same colour :-( 18:52:26 *** Sleepie [~Sleepie@p4FFFDC76.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 18:52:27 <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3138/subtypes_7.png 18:52:29 <andythenorth> done 18:52:57 <andythenorth> 'cargo holds' or just 'holds' 18:52:58 <andythenorth> ? 18:53:20 <andythenorth> 'cargo hold' is tautology? 18:53:36 <Eddi|zuHause> i wouldn't know what a "hold" is 18:53:43 <andythenorth> alternative suggestions? 18:54:00 <andythenorth> 'dry cargo' ? 18:54:15 <Eddi|zuHause> and i still like the grey better 18:54:20 <V453000> piece goods or something similar? 18:54:38 <andythenorth> has to be nothing that is a cargo class name 18:55:34 <andythenorth> brb, food 18:55:35 <V453000> then piece something :>. 18:55:36 <Hirundo> I agree with eddi that grey looked better, it's less obtrusive 19:05:38 <planetmaker> I think 'cargo hold' is a good description 19:05:58 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: cargo hold = Frachtraum (somewhat) 19:08:03 <__ln__> i wouldn't have known what 'hold' is either, but is that a reason not to use the most appropriate english words? 19:09:36 <Alberth> people may even learn a word or two English from playing openttd :) 19:10:22 <Sleepie> I also didn't know it till now, but think its the best choose 19:10:36 <Sleepie> choice* 19:12:05 <Sleepie> Alberth: or maybe not, because the translators are too fast 19:12:12 <__ln__> if "we" begin to choose "easier" words that are more suitable for e.g. non-native speakers, then it's Simple English by definition, isn't it. 19:12:57 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yes. i know that. but i meant just "hold" (without further context) wouldn't have a meaning to me 19:13:16 <planetmaker> ah. Yes. I agree. 19:13:21 <planetmaker> I misunderstood you 19:13:27 <Alberth> Sleepie: play without translation, I find wording in English better than the translation 19:14:56 <Alberth> good night 19:15:17 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I still preferred grey :P 19:15:34 *** Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 19:15:39 <FLHerne> Also, (holds) on its own would be confusing, I think 19:16:41 * andythenorth considers alternatives 19:16:49 <andythenorth> like '(refitted to tanker)' 19:17:02 <andythenorth> '(refitted to general cargo vessel)' 19:17:11 <andythenorth> '(refitted to passenger cabins)' 19:17:16 *** fjb [~frank@217.234.108.120] has joined #openttd 19:17:26 <fjb> Moin. 19:17:28 <FLHerne> That would be long and cumbersome :P 19:17:38 <FLHerne> fjb: Evening :P 19:17:48 <andythenorth> might help player understand autorefit behaviour though 19:18:06 <Sleepie> make a pollà 19:18:13 <Sleepie> ? 19:18:32 * Sleepie checks his shift key 19:22:59 <andythenorth> poll options are? 19:25:19 <Sleepie> hmm ok maybe a poll isn't the best idea (maybe only for other colors), than maybe just ask for alternative in the forum 19:25:53 <Sleepie> based on the screenshot above 19:26:24 <andythenorth> forum rarely produces better suggestions than this channel ;) 19:26:28 <andythenorth> and more noise there 19:27:29 * andythenorth ships what he has so far 19:27:40 <andythenorth> so...cargoes that travel by tanker: 19:27:43 <andythenorth> - alcohol? 19:27:48 <andythenorth> - milk? 19:28:16 <Sleepie> wouldn't alcohol be in bottles 19:28:18 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d172-218-2-5.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 19:28:30 <andythenorth> this is my question ;) 19:28:47 <FLHerne> Both could. Depends on size of vessel, type of alcohol 19:29:06 <FLHerne> I can't imagine a supertanker full of milk :P 19:29:10 <Sleepie> true but which is more common 19:29:16 <andythenorth> small ships don't refit to tanker anyway, so moot point ;) 19:29:23 <FLHerne> But a tanker barge is a possibility 19:29:29 <andythenorth> yes 19:29:42 <andythenorth> point 19:30:09 <FLHerne> Industrial alcohol might be tankered, pehaps in large quantities 19:30:22 <FLHerne> Wine/beer probably not? 19:30:25 <andythenorth> but not to hotels and shops...? 19:31:57 <FLHerne> This is supposedly a wine tanker: http://www.marineinsight.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/2092302547_9b3fc6866f.jpg 19:32:13 <planetmaker> *hicks* 19:32:39 <Sleepie> with one/several big tanks? 19:33:04 <FLHerne> Apparently 19:33:19 <andythenorth> yes there are wine tankers 19:33:25 <andythenorth> also fruit juice tankers 19:34:37 <FLHerne> Sorry, Google Images confused. That one's orange juice. This one's wine: http://www.marineinsight.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/522643.jpg 19:35:31 <Sleepie> well not much different, at least the exist ;) 19:36:04 * andythenorth makes milk and alcohol use cargo holds, not tankers 19:36:17 *** M1zera [~Miranda@ip-78-102-217-126.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:36:43 <Sleepie> tankers would only make sense if delivered to other industry and not a town imho 19:36:49 <andythenorth> +1 19:37:25 <FLHerne> Makes sense 19:37:29 *** namad7 [~aaaaa@pool-173-71-180-190.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:37:30 <Sleepie> next one 19:39:21 * andythenorth ponders 19:39:36 <TrueBrain> be careful with that 19:39:41 <andythenorth> simpler if it only refits to tanker for cargos that have only liquid class 19:39:48 <andythenorth> less special case code 19:42:15 <andythenorth> if anyone adds a liquid cargo with extra classes set, they won't get tankers 19:42:18 <andythenorth> [shrug] 19:43:47 * andythenorth considers removing subtype strings entirely 19:45:34 *** M1zera [~Miranda@ip-78-102-217-126.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 19:47:49 <andythenorth> that's better :) 19:50:30 <Sleepie> future proof ;) 19:51:49 <FLHerne> andythenorth: What about autorefitting? 19:52:11 <FLHerne> Subtypes without description strings would be confusing 19:54:10 <andythenorth> the subtype string is only there to help players understand autorefit rules 19:54:15 <andythenorth> it doesn't have any other use 19:55:40 <FLHerne> But in its absense, the players wouldn't understand the autorefit rules :P 19:55:53 <FLHerne> s/absense/absence/ 19:56:02 <andythenorth> k 19:56:05 <andythenorth> case made then 19:56:30 <andythenorth> hmm 19:56:45 <andythenorth> if (indirection > 2) { ABORT ABORT ABORT } 19:57:03 <andythenorth> :P 19:58:00 <andythenorth> meh 19:59:01 <FLHerne> Er...is 2.9 tonnes/second a stupid rate of fire for a Gatling gun? 19:59:15 * FLHerne looks up A-10s :o 20:04:45 <andythenorth> meh 20:04:51 * andythenorth adds more indirection after all 20:05:13 <FLHerne> What are you indirecting? 20:05:26 <andythenorth> nml templates 20:05:33 <andythenorth> this makes no sense to me: 20:05:34 <andythenorth> "0 .. 16377 as refit cost. Add CB_RESULT_AUTOREFIT if you want to allow autorefit." 20:07:24 <andythenorth> how do I add a cb result? 20:08:21 <fjb> That looks like a constant expression to me. 20:09:25 <fjb> E.g.: 295 + CB_RESULT_AUTOREFIT 20:09:52 * andythenorth tests 20:10:58 <andythenorth> hmm 20:11:06 <andythenorth> seems that setting a cost automatically allows autorefit 20:11:55 <andythenorth> ach 20:11:56 <Sleepie> so also cost zero works? 20:12:16 <andythenorth> seems that setting ROADVEH_FLAG_AUTOREFIT for ship misc_flags works :P 20:15:32 <andythenorth> there's no extra_callback_info1 for refit_cost 20:15:41 <andythenorth> how do I check the type being refitted to? 20:16:31 *** namad7 [~aaaaa@pool-173-71-180-190.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 20:16:33 <andythenorth> is var 10 not implemented for nml? 20:20:54 <andythenorth> is there a way to check vars directly in nml? 20:22:45 <planetmaker> var 10 is implemented. extra_callback_info1 (or 2) 20:23:08 <andythenorth> did you look in src for that? 20:23:14 * andythenorth was about to try that 20:23:43 <andythenorth> hmm 20:23:54 <andythenorth> just gets me the mapping to the cb number 20:24:41 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host81-154-231-254.range81-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 20:24:46 <planetmaker> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:General#General_variables 20:25:20 <andythenorth> k thanks 20:25:39 <planetmaker> but not sure it'll help. There's a subtype variable iirc 20:26:30 <andythenorth> nah, the refit_cost should have what I need 20:26:37 <andythenorth> nfo spec is explicit about it 20:26:43 <planetmaker> cargo_subtype 20:26:51 <planetmaker> is a variable 20:27:12 <andythenorth> in this case I need to bitmask the classes 20:27:22 <andythenorth> but fortunately I know now how nml does that 20:27:23 <andythenorth> :) 20:27:38 <andythenorth> meanwhile: bridge http://www.railpictures.net/photo/403233/ 20:28:46 <Sleepie> ^nice one 20:32:11 <andythenorth> so 20:32:11 <andythenorth> how / why does autorefit work at all? 20:32:11 <andythenorth> I don't see how it can guarantee deterministic refits for some orders if the previous orders are indeterministic 20:32:11 <andythenorth> i.e. order 1: refit available cargo 20:32:11 <andythenorth> order 2: refit [specific cargo] 20:32:11 <andythenorth> where [specific cargo] may or may not be permitted by the vehicle newgrf 20:32:11 <andythenorth> why doesn't this result in a lot of broken routes? 20:34:53 <planetmaker> andythenorth: available = cargo with biggest amount waiting 20:35:04 <planetmaker> refit to XY = refit to XY 20:35:09 <planetmaker> so you have both options 20:35:12 <planetmaker> in the orders menu 20:35:31 <andythenorth> and if available cargo = AB for order 1... 20:35:42 <andythenorth> but for order 2 grf does not permit AB -> XY ? 20:35:49 <planetmaker> hm? 20:35:50 <andythenorth> what does the vehicle do? Stuck? 20:35:56 <planetmaker> The newgrf decides which refit is feasible 20:36:23 <andythenorth> is there error handling for the "can't refit" case? 20:40:29 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host81-148-241-245.range81-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:43:50 <andythenorth> so for refit_cost, var 10 is in format ccccwwtt 20:44:01 <andythenorth> how do I get the first word out in nml? 20:44:11 <andythenorth> and mask it with 0s? 20:44:52 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f7d11.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:46:00 <masch> hey guys. can i have some comments on this: http://masch.it/tiles/ ? 20:47:44 *** andythenorth is now known as Guest239 20:47:44 *** andythenorth [~Andy@host86-130-20-84.range86-130.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 20:47:45 *** Guest239 [~Andy@host86-130-20-84.range86-130.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:53:12 <Sleepie> masch: nice, webgl? 20:55:31 <planetmaker> andythenorth: like usual: (var & 0xFFFF0000) >> 16 20:56:18 <planetmaker> will give you the high word of that dword 20:56:31 <planetmaker> you likely can leave out the masking even. 20:56:50 <andythenorth> ta 20:57:06 * andythenorth tries >> 16 20:58:06 <andythenorth> meh 20:58:11 <andythenorth> angle brackets are escaped :P 21:04:12 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host81-148-241-245.range81-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 21:06:48 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-33-118.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 21:08:01 *** Devroush2 [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 21:09:03 *** Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:09:39 *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@dsl-149-87-36.hive.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:11:25 *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@dsl-149-87-36.hive.is] has joined #openttd 21:11:40 <andythenorth> what's wrong with this as a switch result? 21:11:40 <andythenorth> return 0 + CB_RESULT_AUTOREFIT; 21:11:40 <andythenorth> doesn't bloody work :P 21:15:40 * andythenorth decides bed is nice 21:16:03 *** Devroush2 [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:16:44 <andythenorth> oh ffs 21:17:48 <andythenorth> "Bit 14: If set, the refit is allowed as an auto-refit as long as bit 4 of the miscellaneous flags is set as well." 21:17:48 <andythenorth> always read the nfo spec 21:17:48 <andythenorth> golden rule of nml coding :P 21:17:48 * andythenorth should edit the wiki 21:17:52 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@78.96.213.97] has quit [Quit: DANGER sla.ro is OFFLINE DANGER] 21:20:39 *** fjb is now known as Guest240 21:20:40 *** fjb [~frank@pD9EA616C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 21:21:00 <andythenorth> hmm 21:25:14 *** andythenorth [~Andy@host86-130-20-84.range86-130.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 21:28:14 *** Guest240 [~frank@217.234.108.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:35:17 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4d082098.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us] 21:49:03 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has left #openttd [] 22:00:45 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1AB54.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:01:10 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host81-154-231-254.range81-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:21:03 *** fjb [~frank@pD9EA616C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 22:33:15 <masch> Sleepie: canvas 22:33:49 <Terkhen> good night 22:35:16 <planetmaker> masch: I notice the funny light direction. It should come from around 4:30pm. Not from 2pm. 22:36:02 <masch> planetmaker: O.o thats noticeable? The tiles are prerendered with blendern. Maybe i should fix that .. 22:36:15 <planetmaker> look at slope brightness 22:36:23 <masch> planetmaker: http://masch.it/tiles/img/sand.png 22:36:38 <masch> the last row is "buggy" :-/ need to be fixed 22:36:52 <planetmaker> it's later than 1:30 and earlier than 3:00 22:37:09 <planetmaker> it should be... around 4:30 22:38:12 <masch> okay.. thanks for that. I'll try to fix that blender file. That whole thing is for my bachlor thesis :-/ 22:39:00 <planetmaker> there might be already light settings around for blender. Maybe in OpenGFX+Trains (though to me that seems directly 3pm) and in zBase maybe another. I need to look 22:39:37 <planetmaker> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ogfx-trains/repository and http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/zbase/repository 22:40:08 <Wolf01> 'night all 22:40:13 <planetmaker> but I like the terrain for a change. Could make nice desert or so 22:40:14 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@95.232.234.29] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 22:40:24 <planetmaker> what's your goal, masch? 22:40:38 <masch> planetmaker: "openttd in browser & nodejs" 22:41:00 <masch> its project work & bachlor thesis so i can split it in two big parts 22:41:11 <masch> client & server 22:41:41 <planetmaker> o_O That's a BIG project 22:41:51 <masch> the "real" goal is to evaluate modern web technologies 22:42:06 <masch> performance, support in browsers, "what is possible" 22:42:14 <TrueBrain> then why nodejs? :) 22:42:15 <planetmaker> you're the guy from play-ttd ? 22:42:22 <masch> TrueBrain: server :P 22:42:25 <TrueBrain> the fact that is uses javascript, doesn't make it a web technoligy ;) 22:42:30 <masch> planetmaker: play-ttd? whats that? 22:42:37 <planetmaker> openttd in the browser. 22:42:48 <planetmaker> http://play-ttd.com/ 22:43:05 <masch> meeeh 22:43:09 <masch> thats a emscript version 22:43:11 <masch> booooring 22:43:15 <masch> xD 22:43:33 <planetmaker> :-) 22:43:36 <TrueBrain> making its network to work would be a nice goal ;) 22:44:06 <masch> TrueBrain: thats the plan 22:44:15 <TrueBrain> I mean, with emscript 22:44:20 <masch> okay :D 22:44:21 <TrueBrain> much more useful (to us) :P 22:44:30 <Eddi|zuHause> what's worse with an automatic conversion via emscript, that's not with automatically converting to your machine language with gcc (or similar)? 22:44:54 <masch> Eddi|zuHause: i dont say that emscript is bad 22:45:07 <Eddi|zuHause> you said "meeeh" 22:45:38 <Eddi|zuHause> and i didn't say "bad" either 22:45:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i said "worse" 22:46:00 <Eddi|zuHause> (referring to your "boring") 22:46:44 <masch> Eddi|zuHause: the difference between "using emscript" and "reimplementing everything" is that you learn a lot more about how things work and can implement things diffently 22:47:01 <TrueBrain> masch: just realise that "reimplementing everything" will take you several months if not years 22:47:04 <TrueBrain> OpenTTD is HUGE 22:47:15 <planetmaker> 300k+ lines 22:47:20 <masch> TrueBrain: yes. My plan isnt "reimplementing everthing" 22:47:31 <TrueBrain> now you are just confusing us :D 22:47:34 <masch> my plan is "lets see how much i can get to work" 22:47:43 <masch> the target is not to have a complete game 22:47:43 <TrueBrain> so isn't emscript a better starting point? 22:47:48 <TrueBrain> as it already does 90%? :) 22:48:05 <TrueBrain> not wanting to spoil your fun etc, but I am just trying to get the most out of it of which OpenTTD benefits :) 22:48:39 <masch> "The way is the goal." 22:48:57 <TrueBrain> the way of getting network to work in a browser is also a goal :D 22:49:03 <planetmaker> but not all ways equally interesting :-) 22:49:03 <Eddi|zuHause> you did not even sketch a way... 22:49:07 <masch> TrueBrain: i dont do this to contribute to OpenTTD, sry :D 22:49:25 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: btw, 200k lines, sry :) 22:49:26 <Eddi|zuHause> you just throw in a few buzz words 22:49:40 <TrueBrain> cpp: 184232 (90.52%) 22:49:41 <TrueBrain> ansic: 17135 (8.42%) 22:49:43 <TrueBrain> sh: 1485 (0.73%) 22:49:44 <TrueBrain> awk: 682 (0.34%) 22:49:47 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: well, not bad for 12 months memory or so ;-) 22:49:52 <masch> Eddi|zuHause: i was just asking for comments. I just started work on this.. 22:50:04 <TrueBrain> Development Effort Estimate, Person-Years (Person-Months) = 53.10 (637.21) 22:50:43 <Eddi|zuHause> masch: see... it would take you 53 years to reimplement openttd 22:50:56 <masch> it might take me over 100 years 22:51:06 <masch> but as i told you already, thats not what i want 22:51:10 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: ohloh gives me 225k LOC, 65k comments. Which is pretty close to 300k :-) 22:51:11 <TrueBrain> haha, you plan to become N+100 years old, and still code? :D 22:51:13 <TrueBrain> kewl :) :D 22:51:25 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: ohloh seems wrong ... 22:51:29 <planetmaker> and 46k blank 22:51:30 <TrueBrain> I used latest trunk .. 22:52:19 <TrueBrain> which is rather weird, as I don't see how counting lines can differ that much :P 22:52:24 <TrueBrain> +/- 10k, sure 22:52:28 <TrueBrain> but +/- 30% ... 22:52:31 * NGC3982 notices that measuring emf fields with an android phone was serious business. 22:52:50 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: a cat */* | wc -l gives me 290k 22:53:06 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you get 30% more blank lines when you count \n and \r separately :) 22:53:18 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: pff, I get 300k then 22:53:27 <planetmaker> ;-) 22:53:45 <masch> there are a lot of things i'm doing differently by implementing them on my own. For example the "window system". The emscript version just draws anything in one big canvas 22:53:52 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: but when done right, that results more in the order of 600k 22:54:02 <planetmaker> yes 22:54:12 <planetmaker> I know that all subs are excluded there 22:54:28 <masch> For "UI" i'm using html elements & css. That should - in my hopes - improve performance 22:54:33 <TrueBrain> weird, that sloccount and ohloh give such a different value 22:54:34 <Eddi|zuHause> masch: that's what openttd does internally. 22:54:35 <TrueBrain> owh well 22:54:37 <TrueBrain> who cares .. a lot of lines :D 22:54:41 <masch> Eddi|zuHause: i know 22:55:06 <Eddi|zuHause> masch: you have to dig waaaay deeper into openttd core to change that 22:55:08 <masch> But as i try to tell you: i dont try to copy OpenTTDs code 22:55:33 <masch> i try to build a game that looks like TTD and works like TTD 22:55:38 <masch> in the browser 22:55:51 <masch> thats why i dont use emscript 22:56:04 <masch> if i want to copy openttd, i would use emscript 22:56:09 <masch> but thats not what i want 22:56:52 <masch> ohh and sry for my bad grammar. Its late & i'm not a navtive speaker 22:57:14 <Eddi|zuHause> if you don't want to reuse code, why be "like TTD" in the first place? TTD has so many shortcomings that you could easily avoid by designing a new game properly 22:57:16 <TrueBrain> please, never say those things ... it is one of the most annoying things to read every single time people post or talk 22:57:20 <TrueBrain> "sorry about my grammer" 22:57:31 <TrueBrain> if it would be bad, we would ask you every single time what the fuck you are saying :P 22:57:42 <TrueBrain> otherwise .. our humand minds can attach enough symbols together to make sense out of it :D 22:57:53 <masch> okay :D 22:58:07 <TrueBrain> the fact that you do want to apoligize says you have enoguh understanding of the language tbfh :P 22:58:24 <Eddi|zuHause> masch: nearly nobody here is a native speaker... and usually people who say "sorry for my english. i'm not a native speaker" are way better than the native speakers anyway 22:59:18 <planetmaker> I think no-one who spoke in this hour is a native speaker 23:00:02 <masch> okay. 23:00:08 <TrueBrain> and I am hungry 23:00:40 <masch> Eddi|zuHause: you ask why i want to build it "like TTD". Because i like TTD! I really love this game. 23:00:45 <planetmaker> masch: and, I don't think you have to re-invent the sprites. Many things become available in the zbase project I linked you to above 23:00:55 <planetmaker> under the terms of the gpl you may use them all 23:01:16 <planetmaker> ready-to-use blender files with ready-rendered sprites in 3 sizes 23:01:27 <planetmaker> and proper lightening :-P 23:01:40 <masch> planetmaker: yes, thanks. Thats what i looked for earlier. thanks a lot that will help me 23:01:51 <planetmaker> (but for a new game you should not care about openttd light direction anyway) 23:02:53 <masch> planetmaker: i'm still shocked that you can see the difference between 2:00 and 4:30 O.o 23:03:02 <TrueBrain> years of training :P 23:03:07 <TrueBrain> before he became a dev 23:03:09 <TrueBrain> we put him in a room 23:03:11 <TrueBrain> for hours at end 23:03:13 <TrueBrain> till he knew 23:03:14 <planetmaker> masch: I'm the maintainer of the base graphics set ;-) 23:03:15 <TrueBrain> it was horrible 23:03:33 <planetmaker> and yes, TrueBrain is totally right ;-) 23:03:45 <TrueBrain> I totally not make that up :D 23:04:12 <planetmaker> masch: I'm not the only one who notices, though. Just read a bit grpahics forum 23:04:26 <planetmaker> it's like a religion :-P 23:04:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i've been hearing this talk for years, and i still don't notice a difference between 2:00 and 4:30 23:04:40 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: brightness of slopes on terrain 23:04:41 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: maybe that is why you are not dev? :D 23:04:42 <TrueBrain> *troll* 23:05:01 <Eddi|zuHause> that must be it :p 23:05:32 <planetmaker> tbh, it was andy who convinced me :-P 23:05:41 <planetmaker> (with the light) 23:05:44 <Eddi|zuHause> and all these years i was thinking it's because i don't conctribute enough code :p 23:05:55 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: like planetmaker contributed code :P 23:05:57 <TrueBrain> MWHAHAHAHA 23:06:08 <planetmaker> meh 23:06:11 <masch> TrueBrain: to be hones, these are the first working tiles and i havend done that blender file. Some guy on reddit postet it and helped me to add some missing tiles. One of my next steps is to get a proper, nice way to render those images 23:06:27 <TrueBrain> s/TrueBrain/planetmaker/ 23:06:29 <TrueBrain> I am guessing :P 23:06:36 * TrueBrain hugs planetmaker; it was just too easy :D 23:06:43 <planetmaker> I know :-) 23:06:44 *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@dsl-149-87-36.hive.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:08:14 <Eddi|zuHause> masch: one of the big shortcomings of TTD is the fixed steepness of slopes. if you design a new (tile-based) game, then you might want to allow for more varied slopes 23:08:26 *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@dsl-149-87-36.hive.is] has joined #openttd 23:09:06 <masch> Eddi|zuHause: thats the only thing me engine does properly right now!!111 I will never change that xD 23:10:06 <masch> Map generation: ~1hour : learn to use libnoise, generate a noisemap; ~2hours: smooth that noisemap to be a valid openttd map! 23:11:13 <Eddi|zuHause> if i could redesign the slopes, i would change the current 8px (z-level) slopes into steps of 4,8 and 12. tunnels can only be placed on 12 slopes, rails only on 4 slopes, roads on 4 and 8 slopes. bridges over road/rail must have minimum height 12 23:13:18 *** TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has quit [Quit: Hugs to all] 23:14:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i recently started up SimCity 2000, man that game did not age as well as TT... 23:14:43 <planetmaker> please tell :-) Why not? 23:15:07 <masch> :D that one of the games i was to dumb for all these year. Never created something that worked 23:17:39 <Eddi|zuHause> dunno really, it's not one specific thing that is wrong... maybe the pale graphics. maybe the awkward user interface, maybe the really limited gameplay compared to SC4, ... 23:18:38 <Eddi|zuHause> the maps seemed smaller than 15 years ago :p 23:29:14 <planetmaker> :-) 23:57:42 *** flaa [~flaa@188.141.45.124] has quit [Quit: leaving]