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00:20:08 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f57f6.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:27:00 <NGC3982> bah. 00:28:24 <drac_boy> hm? :) 00:29:19 <NGC3982> Im too tired. 00:56:01 *** KritiK [~Maxim@89-178-75-39.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:09:39 *** APTX [APTX@2001:470:1f0b:1a9d:240:63ff:fefb:5994] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 01:10:11 *** APTX [APTX@2001:470:1f0b:1a9d:240:63ff:fefb:5994] has joined #openttd 01:15:59 *** Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 01:32:52 <Wolf01> 'night 01:32:55 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@95.232.234.29] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 01:33:01 *** kais58 [~kais58@host-92-22-146-48.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:39:19 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-183-219.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [] 01:40:13 *** drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable133.8-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has left #openttd [I'm done being in this room!] 01:50:56 *** KouDy [~KouDy@115.133.15.129] has joined #openttd 01:56:48 *** Frankr [~chatzilla@cpc4-pres13-2-0-cust231.pres.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 14.0.1/20120713134347]] 02:12:41 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host86-154-36-54.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 02:19:39 *** KouDy [~KouDy@115.133.15.129] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:21:35 *** KouDy [~KouDy@115.133.15.129] has joined #openttd 02:30:06 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:f1f9:82a4:13d5:ece8] has quit [Quit: bye] 02:31:29 *** Biolunar_ [~mahdi@blfd-4d086bbe.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 02:34:37 *** Biolunar_ [~mahdi@blfd-4d086bbe.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [] 02:38:43 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-5d823a81.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:51:43 *** boomslang [~greg@pool-173-48-134-115.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 02:52:50 <boomslang> thanks, dev team 02:53:07 *** boomslang [~greg@pool-173-48-134-115.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:00:08 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host86-154-36-54.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:05:48 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-34-173.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:14:15 *** Elukka [Elukka@78-27-97-92.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 03:43:15 *** cypher [~Miranda@ip-78-45-94-47.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 03:47:09 *** KouDy [~KouDy@115.133.15.129] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:58:42 *** cypher [~Miranda@ip-78-45-94-47.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 04:51:01 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@i59F6D4C4.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 04:55:19 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6CF41.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:31:51 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD5012.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 05:32:07 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD4844.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 06:00:10 *** Mek_ is now known as Mek 06:25:39 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 06:38:35 <andythenorth> meh 06:38:44 <andythenorth> I was losing my game badly 06:38:51 <andythenorth> so I turned HEQS running costs down 06:38:58 <andythenorth> can't do that in real life :P 07:00:24 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 07:03:31 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 07:15:27 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@78.96.213.97] has joined #openttd 07:30:47 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 08:03:10 *** KouDy [~KouDy@115.133.15.129] has joined #openttd 08:03:53 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B25B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 08:13:34 *** guru3_ [~guru3@81-224-161-252-no225.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:14:13 *** Alberth [~hat3@2001:980:272e:1:21a:92ff:fe55:fc8d] has joined #openttd 08:14:16 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 08:14:26 <Alberth> good morning 08:21:37 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 08:23:49 <Alberth> o/ 08:24:40 <andythenorth> o/ Alberth 08:34:05 <Alberth> I have been thinking about the number of industries; could it be useful to define some sort of function in newgrf that gives the total number of industries? 08:34:15 <Alberth> sort of like the snowline 08:34:45 <andythenorth> yes it could be 08:40:37 <Alberth> frosch said yesterday that we have varying construction probabilities of industries, but I cannot find them in the spec :( 08:41:33 <Alberth> perhaps I misunderstood him 08:44:32 <Rubidium> Alberth: http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Callbacks#Industry_availability_.2822.29 08:45:51 <Alberth> thanks! 08:51:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i think a semi-proper solution would be to "force" missing industries despite all slots already being used 08:52:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: this could be a flag of this callback 08:53:19 <Eddi|zuHause> so during a cb22 run, a NewGRF could check "this is a 512^2 map, and there are less than 5 bauxite mines on the map, force the creation of a bauxite mine" 08:56:12 <andythenorth> +1 to what Eddi|zuHause said 08:56:22 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: this avoids the issue of "reserving" slots for unusable industries, in turn you might get more industries than intended, if the NewGRF thinks they are essential to the economy 08:56:50 <andythenorth> although....if closure was trying to maintain a fixed number of industries on the map (it doesn't afaik), forcing new types might conflict 08:57:34 <Eddi|zuHause> if closure is enabled, the number of industries will eventually balance out 08:57:37 <andythenorth> I want the ability to force, even though I'm not convinced reserving slots is wrong 08:57:55 <andythenorth> I can reserve slots carefully, then player builds industries and the plan fails :P 08:58:25 <andythenorth> player-can-build means anything that is too tied to specific number per map is dicey 08:58:29 <Alberth> you do have the ability to force, but just to one instance 08:58:51 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: apparently that works only for closing, not for opening 08:59:00 <andythenorth> Alberth ...also assuming a map location can be found :) 09:00:01 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: it works for opening, and iirc there is some code that prevents closing the last instance too 09:00:16 <Alberth> andythenorth: good luck building non-buildable industries :D 09:00:42 <andythenorth> yeah that :P 09:01:07 <andythenorth> Alberth: if I (in newgrf) limited the number of instances built, I could try and keep space free 09:01:13 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: we were searching for that code that forces opening, but we did not find it 09:01:26 <andythenorth> it's "try very hard" somewhere 09:01:36 <andythenorth> I've seen it, I just don't understand it 09:01:49 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no, that is the code that searches locations 09:01:58 <andythenorth> ah 09:02:22 <Alberth> andythenorth: I believe the newgrf should state shape of the ground, so the game can adapt 09:02:46 <andythenorth> no objections 09:03:03 <Alberth> also, the "i can build here" should be split in no because of terraforming, or no because of other reasons, probably 09:03:43 *** Chrill [Chrill@c83-253-89-11.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:04:16 <Alberth> or perhaps the terraforming should be taken out of that decision entirely, and assumed to be correct to the requested shape 09:04:18 <andythenorth> so we can retry harder, or not? 09:05:05 <Alberth> to prevent terraforming places where FIRS then refuses to build for other reasons, mostly 09:05:31 <andythenorth> broadly, I think we can ignore the terraforming issue for the 'number of industries' problem 09:05:39 <andythenorth> I think frosch has ideas for it anyway 09:06:10 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: problem with that is, if the industry can be built on several slopes, which one to terraform to? 09:06:33 <andythenorth> the one for the selected layout 09:06:38 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why terraforming is disabled completely if the shape check callback is used 09:08:23 <Alberth> terraform to a randomly chosen layout 09:09:22 <Alberth> andythenorth: indeed, terraforming negotiation is mostly for making the 'build industry' process less likely to fail 09:11:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i think the problem is, that it first checks whether industry slots are free, and then forces the building of a missing industry type. but it should do that BEFORE checking the free industry slots 09:12:30 <andythenorth> is that quite expensive? 09:13:47 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth, Alberth: but industry layout and terraforming shape is not a 1:1 mapping. one layout may be suitible for building on several shapes 09:15:55 <Alberth> I even think you don't want to specify all of them explicitly, you need a more general shape definition 09:17:44 <Alberth> iirc frosch was thinking along the lines of starting at eg the northern corner, and then each tile-edge is a subset of {go up, level, go down} 09:17:58 <Alberth> so you can define a lot of shapes in a compact form 09:21:48 <andythenorth> yes 09:24:29 *** TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has joined #openttd 09:26:53 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: do you agree that for industry types that have to be on the map, IndustryBuildData::SetupTargetCount() line 2187 industry_cmd.cpp ensures that its target_count is non-zero ? 09:27:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i think the problem is line 2666 09:28:56 <Eddi|zuHause> it needs an exception when an industry is missing 09:29:28 <Alberth> good point 09:31:02 <Alberth> line 2658 too :) 09:31:24 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@95.232.234.29] has joined #openttd 09:31:32 <Wolf01> hello 09:31:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i think we can live wouthout that 09:31:56 <Eddi|zuHause> adds some random delay 09:32:03 <Alberth> hi Wolf01 09:32:12 <Eddi|zuHause> instead of spawning the industries immediately on 1.1. 09:33:41 <Alberth> it basically construct a slowly increasing number of industries, but only when the actual construction can keep up 09:35:17 <Alberth> since there is no control on close down, industries close like they are mad on large maps with dense industries 09:37:47 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@cybertinus.jkit.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:39:00 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@cybertinus.jkit.nl] has joined #openttd 09:41:21 <andythenorth> rate limiter on closures? 09:41:31 <andythenorth> maybe configurable for player? 09:41:43 <andythenorth> [also map scaled] 09:45:03 <Alberth> let openttd decide whether or not to close :) 09:45:21 *** Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 09:45:29 <Eddi|zuHause> let's fix opening first, and then handle closing :) 09:47:05 <Alberth> forcing one instance is a very small part of the problem imho 09:47:41 <Alberth> ie you get a 1 industry of each type extra, and that's it 09:47:44 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why i proposed forcing multiple industries by cb22 09:48:15 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. on small maps with FIRS i get one of each farm, which makes them pretty much unplayable 09:48:38 <Alberth> fixing a broken system by adding more layers just makes it more complicated imho 09:48:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't really think the system is broken 09:48:59 <Alberth> imho FIRS is not designed for playing on small maps 09:49:19 <Eddi|zuHause> the map was like 128x256, so not THAT small 09:49:46 <Alberth> perhaps you should read the log of #openttd of yesterday again? 09:50:23 <andythenorth> I think forcing instances via cb22 is useful and a small win 09:50:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i remember the log (mostly) 09:50:26 <andythenorth> the rest of this... 09:50:29 <Alberth> progressing from one 'era' to another one is very very difficult 09:50:42 <andythenorth> the more I think about it, the more I want a NewEconomy, made of up of several quite small things 09:50:46 <andythenorth> and exposed properly to GS 09:50:57 <andythenorth> and as a game option 09:51:05 <Eddi|zuHause> that would be NoEconomy :) 09:51:13 <Alberth> and I don't see how forcing additional industries fixes that problem in a good way 09:51:19 <andythenorth> NoEconomy exactly :) 09:51:26 <andythenorth> we have a winner :) 09:51:43 <Alberth> Noconomy :) 09:51:57 <Eddi|zuHause> NoCo :) 09:52:37 <andythenorth> all those work for me :) 09:53:02 <andythenorth> Alberth: the alternative to forcing in cb22 is to have the game take care of this better 09:53:15 <Alberth> yep 09:53:30 <andythenorth> the issue I want to solve is when wholly new chains arrive; replacing existing types with new types, I don't care about so much right now 09:53:42 <andythenorth> (1) force in cb22 09:53:46 <andythenorth> (2) reserve slots 09:53:53 <andythenorth> (3) have game increase number of industries required 09:53:56 <andythenorth> (4) ?? 09:54:32 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fcc96.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 09:54:39 <Alberth> hi frosch 09:55:55 <andythenorth> (3b) have game count how many industry types are a in a grf, and scale required numbers accordingly 09:56:08 <Eddi|zuHause> ok, eras: a mind-scenario - imagine we have a "pre-industrial" era with very many very small industries (like each town has almost all industry types (carpenter, smith, market, ...). and now it shifts to an industrial era, where many small industries close down and fewer large industries replace them 09:56:28 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that one probably just works 09:56:37 <frosch123> hai albert 09:56:46 <Eddi|zuHause> now the newgrf needs to a) need a way to force opening the new industries, b) lower the target count of industries, c) force close the smaller industries 09:56:59 <Eddi|zuHause> in that order 09:57:57 <andythenorth> a) can't be done b) limit numbers of types in the newgrf, with map scaling calculated by the author c) use the monthly prod change cb (ugh) 09:58:11 <frosch123> are you discussing again? or are you still discussing? :p 09:58:23 <Alberth> sounds to me that you are asking for control over the total number of industries in the game over time, ie my third line in this channel this morning 09:59:12 <Alberth> frosch123: it feels like new ground to me :) 09:59:17 <andythenorth> Alberth: I think you left yesterday before I posted this? http://paste.openttdcoop.org/raw/1649/ 09:59:39 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but also no. it's probably a bad idea to expose absolute numbers to the NewGRF. it needs to be scalable by industry density and map size 09:59:40 <frosch123> the 'force build' flag sounds wrong to me :p 09:59:56 <frosch123> we were discussing about disallowing 'force closure', so why add 'force build'? 10:00:00 <NGC3982> Good morning. 10:01:25 <andythenorth> if a new type is available, and I knew I could cast-iron trust the game to build it quite quickly, I wouldn't want the cb22 forcing 10:01:38 <andythenorth> but in the short term the cb22 solution is appealingly simple :P 10:02:04 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think the simple exception to line 2666 is more simple :) 10:02:18 <Eddi|zuHause> and might render most of the discussion here irrelevant 10:02:26 <Alberth> andythenorth: I don't think a GS has enough room for interesting behavior if the newgrf has to be obeyed 10:02:54 <andythenorth> Alberth: maybe, but then you throw out a lot of newgrf spec. Is anyone brave enough to do that? 10:03:20 <andythenorth> and now your GS needs to handle things like location checks etc 10:03:37 <Alberth> just saying that you cannot give newgrf more control and expect GS to be able to do anything 10:04:14 <andythenorth> newgrf could cede control over cb22 10:04:40 <Alberth> "but respecting result from newgrf" 10:04:57 <andythenorth> could be wrong 10:05:11 <andythenorth> it's a proposal, could be changed easily 10:05:50 <NGC3982> I don't understand this. I cant get the production of normal industries to exceed 67%. 10:06:04 <NGC3982> I can manage FIRS, but the normal industries are a pain. 10:06:10 <Alberth> NGC3982: read the game mechanics wiki page 10:11:19 <NGC3982> Yes, i did. 10:11:25 <NGC3982> And im missing out on somethin 10:11:26 <andythenorth> bbl 10:11:27 <NGC3982> +g. 10:11:29 <NGC3982> "For an industry that has good (greater than 60%) service: 67% chance of increase, 33% chance of decrease." 10:11:30 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 10:12:14 <NGC3982> Reading this, i don't understand why my production don't -ever- increases, while stuck at 69%? 10:12:17 <NGC3982> :> 10:15:31 <Alberth> what 69%? the percentage transported? that's not the service level 10:16:08 <Alberth> that level is in the town window afaik 10:16:11 <NGC3982> Oh 10:16:35 <NGC3982> Oh? 10:17:31 <Alberth> although they are related in some way, of course 10:17:50 <frosch123> Alberth: industry producton changes are about percentage transported 10:18:08 *** kais58 [~kais58@host-92-22-216-56.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 10:18:12 <NGC3982> Yes, so i thought. 10:18:12 <frosch123> anyway, if the probability for an increase is higher 10:18:18 <frosch123> that does not imply that it occurs all the time :p 10:18:27 <NGC3982> Well, it doesn't happen at all? 10:18:34 <frosch123> it just means that it is more likely to increase than decrease 10:18:42 <frosch123> there is nothing said about whether it happens at all 10:18:45 <NGC3982> http://i.imgur.com/jsQO7.png 10:19:28 <NGC3982> This industry has been at 36 tonnes for 17 years, and i can't figure out why. :) 10:20:34 <NGC3982> The trains are set to full-load, and the trucks to pickup and transfer. 10:20:55 <frosch123> enable smooth economy then 10:21:02 <frosch123> then all industries change produiction every month 10:21:08 <NGC3982> Oh 10:21:23 <frosch123> but don't complain about dozen of them closing every year :p 10:22:26 <NGC3982> Oh. :( 10:22:30 <NGC3982> But 10:22:34 <NGC3982> What am i missing then? 10:23:08 <frosch123> the more you make industries depend on cargo transported, the more unserviced industries (i.e. those which are not connected at all) close down 10:23:12 <NGC3982> It's been so long since i played without industry GRF:s, i can't really remember how to get production to increase quickly. 10:24:32 <frosch123> luckily it does not change quickly :p 10:24:47 <frosch123> else all industries would have 2k production, and your transport network would collapse 10:24:58 <NGC3982> Well, yeah. 10:25:08 <NGC3982> I guess im doing it right, and i simply need to wait. 10:26:31 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i once had a solution for that: ignore industries that belong to a town that has no company ratings 10:26:56 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, i guess something along the lines 10:27:05 <frosch123> stop talking about firs, first fix default industries 10:27:06 <NGC3982> Eddi: I tend to do that too. 10:27:08 <Eddi|zuHause> so unserviced regions stay mostly untouched, until you can get to them 10:27:18 <frosch123> only close if there are not already too few industries of that type 10:27:20 <NGC3982> But mostly for not-wanting-to-bribe reasons. 10:27:28 <frosch123> open if there are too few of them (already done) 10:28:08 <frosch123> very minor chance for production changes for industries in areas without industrialisation 10:30:34 <frosch123> (resp. if industries in unindustrialized areas change, either make them close, or double production) 10:30:47 <frosch123> i.e. only notable changes 10:31:21 <Eddi|zuHause> that will probably worsen the problem of mass-closing industries 10:32:04 <frosch123> only close if there are too many of that type 10:32:57 <frosch123> but yes, maybe big production changes are also weird 10:33:04 <frosch123> so, cross that last idea :p 10:43:12 *** drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable133.8-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd 10:45:33 <drac_boy> hi 10:51:35 *** flaa [~flaa@188.141.45.124] has joined #openttd 11:11:57 *** Elukka [Elukka@78-27-97-92.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 11:12:37 <drac_boy> hi elukka 11:15:20 <Terkhen> hello 11:16:51 <Alberth> hello Terkhen 11:21:21 *** flaa_ [~flaa@188.141.45.124] has joined #openttd 11:27:56 *** flaa [~flaa@188.141.45.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:29:45 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host86-154-36-54.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 11:45:58 *** michi_cc [michi@dude.icosahedron.de] has quit [Quit: Und weg...] 11:46:12 *** michi_cc [michi@dude.icosahedron.de] has joined #openttd 11:46:15 *** mode/#openttd [+v michi_cc] by ChanServ 11:46:27 *** KritiK [~Maxim@128-68-227-156.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 11:56:48 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-033-148.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 11:59:05 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-20-85.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 12:17:23 *** roadt [~roadt@114.96.131.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:24:06 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:496d:39fc:8279:3ae9] has joined #openttd 12:24:09 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 12:27:15 *** roadt [~roadt@223.240.97.107] has joined #openttd 12:33:42 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 12:36:44 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B25B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:38:38 <drac_boy> so andythenorth are you going to do anything fun or still keep up same complain about industries mess? :) 12:52:37 *** TheDude [~Miranda@2.237.broadband7.iol.cz] has joined #openttd 12:52:55 <TheDude> hello there 12:52:58 <drac_boy> hi thedude 12:54:28 <drac_boy> how're you? 12:54:49 <TheDude> who me? 12:54:55 <TheDude> hungry 12:55:25 <TrueBrain> want a cookie? 12:56:09 <drac_boy> heh 12:56:18 <drac_boy> I finished breakfast and theres nothing left on the plate sorry :) 12:57:18 <TheDude> nono 12:57:20 <TheDude> I need some maid 12:57:39 <TrueBrain> ieuw 12:57:56 <TheDude> to cook a lunch for me, I am quite reluctant to cook it myself 12:57:58 <andythenorth> j'ai retournez 12:58:16 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: je ne parle pas francais 12:58:58 <glx> andythenorth doesn't either :) 12:59:16 <TrueBrain> :D 13:00:10 <andythenorth> je ponderez 13:00:17 <andythenorth> NoCo 13:00:34 <glx> still not valid :) 13:00:41 <andythenorth> surprise me :) 13:00:44 <andythenorth> had a few ideas 13:01:00 <TrueBrain> oh-oh :P 13:01:01 <andythenorth> be nice if scenario authors could get game to spawn industry types near seed points 13:01:06 <andythenorth> could be done with signs 13:01:17 <andythenorth> do it by produced or accepted cargo labels 13:01:33 <andythenorth> doing it by industry type - we have no way to ensure that, kind of fragile 13:01:49 <TrueBrain> why not make a GS like script for scenarios 13:01:54 <TrueBrain> where they can predefined what happens at what time 13:02:00 <andythenorth> maybe that's the way to do it 13:02:03 <TrueBrain> one big state machine which triggers on dates 13:02:15 <TrueBrain> where they can start industries etc, maybe even production 13:02:23 <TrueBrain> as the scenario knows the newgrfs etc 13:02:43 <andythenorth> maybe 13:02:48 <Eddi|zuHause> such a script isn't really reusable 13:02:57 <TrueBrain> it is not meant to be 13:02:58 <Eddi|zuHause> so i don't think many people will bother 13:02:59 <andythenorth> GS library might be? 13:03:02 <TrueBrain> it is to be paired with a single scenario 13:03:08 <TrueBrain> much like the Tutorial AI 13:03:46 <Eddi|zuHause> hmz... the internet knows absolutely no date on when doctor who is supposed to start... 13:03:54 <Eddi|zuHause> it always says "this fall" 13:04:12 <Eddi|zuHause> occasionally it hints "august" 13:04:42 <Eddi|zuHause> one would imagine the program plan for august is already done, so the date would be known... 13:05:23 <V453000> there is some issue with the xUSSR railway set on bananas, when we put it on the server we cant connect to the game, it says that we have to download the newgrf ... when we download it, it rescans newgrfs and wants to download it again 13:05:39 <TrueBrain> Windows machine? 13:05:42 <V453000> yeah 13:05:43 <TrueBrain> update to 1.2.2-RC1 13:05:49 <V453000> oh right 13:06:01 <V453000> iz trunk .. :) but still 13:06:02 <TrueBrain> Windows clients calculate wrong MD5 in several cases 13:06:05 <V453000> alright 13:06:11 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host86-154-36-54.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:06:34 <drac_boy> V453000 if you're going to use russia trains..at least consider some russia planes too? :P 13:06:35 <drac_boy> heh heh 13:06:50 <V453000> im not really going to play that game :p 13:07:13 <drac_boy> point still stands 13:07:16 <TrueBrain> @commit 24416 13:07:24 <Alberth> andythenorth: I once had the idea to be able to assign areas for each industry type where it could spawn new industries 13:07:25 <TrueBrain> DorpsGek: wtf dude? 13:07:29 <TrueBrain> @opentd commit 24416 13:07:32 <TrueBrain> @openttd commit 24416 13:07:35 <TrueBrain> grr 13:07:36 <TrueBrain> @whoami 13:07:36 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: I don't recognize you. 13:07:43 <TrueBrain> so what? That function should work! 13:07:45 <Alberth> @revision 24416 13:08:20 <Alberth> he's truly ma today :D 13:08:24 <Alberth> *mad 13:08:30 <TrueBrain> @load openttd 13:08:30 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: The operation succeeded. 13:08:39 <TrueBrain> @commit 24425 13:08:40 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Commit by rubidium :: r24425 /branches/1.2 (11 files in 4 dirs) (2012-07-20 19:49:02 UTC) 13:08:41 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: [1.2] -Backport from trunk: 13:08:42 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: - Fix: [Windows] Unbreak NewGRF MD5 sum calculation. Macros and side effects do not mix, especially if there is some obscure '#define min' in a windows header that nobody thinks of [FS#5231] (r24416) 13:08:43 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: - Fix: Disallow removing roadtypes from bridges when not dragging in bridge direction [FS#5221] (r24414) 13:08:44 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: - Fix: Draw wires under low bridges if the bridge is transparent, not if the wire is transparent (r24403) 13:08:45 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: (...) 13:08:51 <TrueBrain> V453000: first entry ^^ ;) 13:09:02 <V453000> :) 13:09:07 <V453000> thanks 13:15:39 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host86-154-36-54.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 13:20:14 <andythenorth> Alberth: just use signs? 13:20:25 <andythenorth> easy 13:20:36 <andythenorth> dirty, probably works 13:20:54 <Alberth> for GS? sure Zuu also uses that 13:21:22 <Alberth> you may want to state a max distance in the sign or so 13:23:22 <andythenorth> yup 13:23:47 <andythenorth> make it available to ottd even without GS? 13:31:02 *** MNIM [~mBuntu@ip5452ffad.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:34:27 <Alberth> using signs feels hacky then, imho 13:35:06 <Alberth> you'd need to make a generic solution to indicate areas 13:35:54 <Alberth> the TileArea already exists, it'd be mostly GUI for specifying, and of course to actually do something useful with the areas 13:36:42 <frosch123> hmm, i am stuck on lever 12 13:36:53 <Alberth> and likely you want to be able to state what the tile area is intended to be used for :) 13:37:05 <frosch123> old games are harder 13:37:20 <Alberth> more fun to solve ;) 13:37:35 * andythenorth plays dope wars 13:38:15 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: sure you didnt mean diper wars? 13:38:15 <frosch123> i saw an advertisement for some *innovative* flash game, i thought i know that game, booted dosbox, and now play sokoban from 1984 :p 13:38:51 <Alberth> sokoban is quite difficult indeed :) 13:41:09 <frosch123> flash games are like teeny music 13:41:32 <frosch123> if you are old enough you know all melodies of all *new* songs already in advance :p 13:41:39 <andythenorth> :P 13:41:50 * andythenorth used to make flash games 13:42:03 <andythenorth> all were copies of 80s games 13:42:10 <frosch123> :) 13:42:21 <frosch123> andythenorth: and your customers did not know them :) 13:42:32 <andythenorth> some did 13:44:58 <andythenorth> Alberth: signs are hacky indeed 13:45:06 <andythenorth> but we already have methods for adding them etc 13:45:17 <andythenorth> new gui = yet more code :) 13:45:38 * andythenorth favours shortcuts today :P 13:46:29 <andythenorth> can signs be placed programmatically? 13:47:15 * andythenorth just had the idea of creating sets of signs 13:47:24 <andythenorth> that can be toggled on/off for visibility 13:47:48 <andythenorth> and used to control things like GS communication, industry seeding etc 13:48:09 <TrueBrain> signs created by GS are like that :P 13:48:17 <TrueBrain> hmm, no, you cannot hide them 13:48:26 <TrueBrain> you should make a new thing called ... 'marker' 13:48:33 <TrueBrain> which are like signs, but different, for that sole purpose 13:51:21 <TrueBrain> and while at that, make them TileAreas, like suggested, and you have a complete setup :D 13:51:58 <frosch123> TrueBrain: zuu wrote a lib, which reads signs on game start, stores them in saveable squirrel structs, and then removes the signs 13:52:16 <TrueBrain> works too 13:52:20 <TrueBrain> but like said, that is a hack :P 13:52:24 <frosch123> he uses that stuff in his gs, to mark places on the map for the script with signs 13:52:48 <frosch123> it's less a hack than hardcoding the positions into the script :p 13:53:17 <TrueBrain> it is 13:56:27 <frosch123> gah, sokoban has no undo 13:56:32 <frosch123> not even for a single move :( 13:57:11 <TrueBrain> ..... 13:57:14 <TrueBrain> restart level? :P 13:57:19 <TrueBrain> undos all your moves :D 13:57:26 <frosch123> yup :p 13:57:35 <frosch123> old games are so cruel 13:57:41 <frosch123> same for stunts 13:57:51 *** MNIM [~mBuntu@ip5452ffad.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #openttd 13:57:54 <TrueBrain> I hate that games make it so easy these days 13:58:00 <frosch123> touching a wall marginally is game over 13:58:07 <TrueBrain> you died? Owh no worries, we just put you back 5 seconds before you died and off you go again 13:58:10 <frosch123> that would never happen for today games :p 13:58:34 <frosch123> TrueBrain: yup :p diablo iii is silly 13:58:41 <TrueBrain> in so many ways 13:59:17 <frosch123> skyrim at least tried to have some story or so :p 14:00:10 <andythenorth> marker, applied similarly to signs 14:00:19 <andythenorth> possibly has drop-downs for values that are enums or such 14:00:30 *** Zuu_ [~Zuu@109.58.146.209.bredband.tre.se] has joined #openttd 14:00:30 <andythenorth> and fields for values that are unbounded 14:00:33 <V453000> openttd has no story! :P 14:00:42 <TrueBrain> write a Quest for OpenTTD :P 14:00:55 <V453000> campaign 14:01:20 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: the 'lots of small industry, then few large industry' case - GS could do that yes / no? 14:01:21 <Zuu_> Just randomly checked the logs and found out that I was mentioned. :) 14:01:28 <TrueBrain> poor Zuu_ 14:01:30 <TrueBrain> what a life 14:01:32 <andythenorth> [apart from 'wtf is the interface between GS and newgrf] :P 14:01:36 <Zuu_> :) 14:02:00 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no it can't, because it is depending heavily on the newgrf 14:02:15 <V453000> Zuu_: I noticed that when I used the "neighbours are important script", it only influences towns generated on map creation, not towns funded in game. Is there any way to go around that and affect all towns? 14:02:25 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: for open / close; what else for? 14:02:45 <Zuu_> Andy: SCP, if krinn finds time to work on it to release a new version. 14:02:49 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: for figuring out whether the industries are small or not 14:02:58 <andythenorth> because industries are black box to GS? 14:03:18 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: for figuring out that there is a difference of "phases" at all 14:03:47 <Zuu_> Hmm, sorry SCP is not really grf - gs. Bad memory of mine. 14:03:48 <Eddi|zuHause> no, an industry set that has such a difference in style, must tell that to the game through some methods, so the game can figure out what to do 14:05:37 <andythenorth> doesn't that entail that the game is capable of understanding every concept a newgrf author might invent? 14:05:42 <andythenorth> or something else? 14:06:13 <Zuu_> V453000, IIRC it should handle that event but it might not be working. You could try to save + load. Also report it in the thread and I'll tke a look at he code when possible (at a train at the moment) 14:06:51 <V453000> ok ... I tried even saving/loading :) 14:06:53 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. the game should be prepared for certain "ideas" that industry authors may have, and be able to react on them. but this can only happen if the NewGRF is capable of telling this to the game 14:07:07 <andythenorth> isn't "small" irrelevant? 14:07:23 <andythenorth> the only information of interest is 'close this type after [date xyz]' 14:07:24 <Eddi|zuHause> "small" wrt maximum production 14:07:57 <andythenorth> we can't just key to industry IDs? 14:08:09 <Eddi|zuHause> key what where? 14:08:39 <andythenorth> write a GS that knows the IDs of industry types 14:08:45 <Eddi|zuHause> no 14:08:47 <Eddi|zuHause> never 14:09:02 <andythenorth> because it doesn't work, or because it's stupid and fragile? 14:09:08 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. 14:09:12 <andythenorth> both? 14:09:18 <Eddi|zuHause> mostly the latter :) 14:09:40 <andythenorth> hmm 14:09:56 <andythenorth> I always end up here when discussing newgrf and GS :P 14:10:16 <andythenorth> either GS controls the narrative, or newgrf controls the narrative 14:10:17 <Alberth> ignore eddi for now, and just see how far you get? 14:10:24 <Eddi|zuHause> imagine you add an industry to FIRS-GRF, how do you add this industry to FIRS-GS? 14:10:34 <andythenorth> Eddi has an unfortunate tendency of being correct :| 14:10:40 <Eddi|zuHause> and then make sure the versions the player uses are compatible? 14:10:52 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: adding a type is a total PITA 14:10:56 <andythenorth> I hate the idea 14:11:10 <V453000> Zuu_: posted it in the thread :) 14:11:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i really hate being correct all the time :) 14:11:39 <andythenorth> I am only baffled because no-one is prepared to say 'newgrf controls game' or 'GS controls game' 14:11:45 *** Zuu_ [~Zuu@109.58.146.209.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Quit: Bye] 14:11:51 <andythenorth> it's same as when we talked with Pikka about it, only less cross :) 14:11:58 *** Zuu_ [~Zuu@109.58.146.209.bredband.tre.se] has joined #openttd 14:12:25 <TheDude> I am with andythenorth, I also miss the ability of GS to access cargos by ID 14:12:34 <andythenorth> I don't have a position :P 14:12:40 <andythenorth> I just want to make an industry set that is fun 14:12:45 <andythenorth> and then maybe write some GS's 14:12:47 <Zuu_> It might work in a Scenario where the GS know for sure which GRFs that are used in the game. 14:12:59 <frosch123> TheDude: contrary to industries you can access cargos by id 14:13:00 <Alberth> + their version :p 14:13:02 <Zuu_> (to use ind. type IDs) 14:13:40 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu_: but that's not the normal use case of an industry set 14:13:59 <Zuu_> Agreed 14:14:05 <andythenorth> maybe we should...hmm 14:14:25 <andythenorth> - scripted scenarios (know set of grfs, newgrf industries cede control to GS) 14:14:33 <andythenorth> - freeform play, newgrf controls 14:14:37 <andythenorth> probably bad idea 14:15:02 <Eddi|zuHause> in general, the NewGRF should control nothing, but give hints to the game. which the game can then expose to GS or not. 14:15:32 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: for closing that's possible, with careful use of existing cbs 14:15:50 <Eddi|zuHause> like, the GRF hints to the game the introduction date of a vehicle. the game then decides whether the vehicle should get available (random factor, refitability, etc.) 14:15:57 <andythenorth> hmm 14:16:13 * andythenorth wonders if grfs should be able to look at some global vars 14:16:19 <andythenorth> like 'current epoch' or such 14:16:29 <andythenorth> avoiding hard-coding to specific dates 14:16:35 * andythenorth rummages 14:16:42 <Eddi|zuHause> what's an "epoch" outside model railway context? 14:17:06 <andythenorth> something GS and newgrf authors need to agree on :P 14:17:14 <andythenorth> it's pretty arbitrary 14:17:30 <Eddi|zuHause> honestly, i don't see that happening 14:17:38 <andythenorth> it could even be that each newgrf details publicly what it will do for certain values of certain vars 14:17:46 <andythenorth> like an event subscriber system 14:17:53 <andythenorth> "All problems in computer science can be solved by another level of indirection" :P 14:18:09 <andythenorth> hmm 14:18:22 <Zuu_> There could be sort of a board/table where gs/GRFs can expose information to eachother. 14:18:24 <andythenorth> let's assume we have some bundle of economy stuff, call it NoCo. Keep it simple. 14:18:31 <andythenorth> Then industries subscribe to NoCo events 14:18:46 <andythenorth> and the newgrf author controls how the newgrf responds to NoCo events 14:18:50 <andythenorth> but details it publicly 14:19:07 <andythenorth> default NoCo events are existing smooth economy (or non-smooth) 14:19:13 <andythenorth> and GS can influence NoCo 14:19:29 <andythenorth> cb 29 and 35 are examples of current NoCo events 14:19:41 <andythenorth> but need a bit of rethinking 14:20:10 <andythenorth> cbs are enough, we don't need actual pub / sub 14:20:56 <andythenorth> Hmm 14:21:16 <andythenorth> give newgrf a way to also trigger NoCo events, which is turned off if a specific GS flag is set 14:21:42 <andythenorth> then eddi can have periods of industry opening / closures in the absence of a newgrf, with specific dates 14:22:00 <andythenorth> but GS can still do stuff with the same newgrf 14:22:04 <andythenorth> hmm 14:22:12 <andythenorth> also give towns NoCo options :P 14:22:46 <andythenorth> "absence of a newgrf" / "absence of a GS" /s 14:23:41 <andythenorth> meh, the implementation I can't figure out, but there's something in this 14:24:21 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD4844.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:24:51 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD4844.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 14:25:45 <andythenorth> we *could* get off the fence and start imposing some more details of the economy 14:26:27 <andythenorth> like 'there will be n industrial phases" etc 14:27:56 <Alberth> Any 'replacenew' NML guru around??? 14:29:21 <Zuu_> Perhaps a GS could make a graph of the industry chains, and use that to during some 10-20 years focus on different chains. 14:31:53 <Zuu_> Eg start with most production and secondary industries in wood chain and then after 10 years over several years shift over to food chain. 14:35:19 *** flaa_ [~flaa@188.141.45.124] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:36:14 <andythenorth> Zuu_: you have access to industry accepted / produced cargos? 14:36:55 <Alberth> http://nogo.openttd.org/api/trunk/classGSIndustryType.html 14:37:21 <Zuu_> Yes. Without that AIs would have a hard time. 14:37:40 <Alberth> just do pax only :p 14:39:11 <Sacro> http://imgur.com/uyJAu hehehe 14:40:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i think we need a plan on what scopes we want to have. e.g. local scope, regional scope, global scope and where the different parts (production, destinations, open/close) interact 14:41:17 <Eddi|zuHause> focus on the default industries, and then add sprinkles for what newgrf industries want to do differently 14:41:58 <Eddi|zuHause> "region" may mean "all industries of a town" or "all industries nearby", or both, or separate... 14:42:19 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. the idea that industries need power 14:42:33 <Eddi|zuHause> which isn't currently possible by NewGRF means alone 14:44:59 <Alberth> Sacro: :) 14:45:25 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: call it 'supplies' 14:46:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Sacro: he should have read the newspapers 14:51:17 <andythenorth> ProductionCanIncrease() <- does that look at value of production multiplier? 14:52:41 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so opening / closing / prod change etc might all vary by a scope (region)? 14:54:32 <andythenorth> local scope is town 14:54:36 <andythenorth> global scope is obvious 14:55:15 <andythenorth> then what? regions = squares of arbitrary size? or a set of towns? 14:55:38 <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: he found out 14:57:51 *** TheDude [~Miranda@2.237.broadband7.iol.cz] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 15:02:44 *** drush [~drush@80-254-76-154.dynamic.swissvpn.net] has joined #openttd 15:02:50 <drush> hello everyone 15:03:23 <Alberth> hi 15:03:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no, local scope is the industry itself 15:03:41 <andythenorth> oh ok 15:03:59 <drac_boy> hi drush 15:04:00 <andythenorth> so town is regional scope? Or something more arbitrarty? 15:04:03 <andythenorth> -t 15:04:11 <Eddi|zuHause> regional scope is something that constitutes "nearby", details to be decided 15:05:08 <andythenorth> k 15:05:27 <andythenorth> so it might be a set, composed of n local scopes 15:05:35 <andythenorth> according to arbitrary criteria :P 15:05:39 <Eddi|zuHause> in each scope, the industry set tells the game what it likes to happen (like industry probability callback) 15:06:08 <Eddi|zuHause> and the game or a gamescript can read that and decides whether it wants to listen or do something arbitrary 15:07:07 <Eddi|zuHause> in turn, the NewGRF can read some variables about each scope what actually happens 15:07:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i think it's easiest if "region" means "town" there 15:07:52 <andythenorth> I think so 15:07:57 <Eddi|zuHause> so local scope, town scope, global scope 15:08:01 <andythenorth> so much of the rest of the game is town scoped 15:08:37 <Eddi|zuHause> so the industry may read a town variable whether the town has a serviced power station 15:09:54 <Eddi|zuHause> the industry set has fairly tight control over the local scope, but next to no control over the town or global scope 15:10:13 <andythenorth> it's a bit of a specific example, but I would handle things like electricity using the secret / magic cargos idea 15:10:18 <Eddi|zuHause> in turn, the game script has no control over the local scope, but lots of control over the town and global scope 15:10:41 <Eddi|zuHause> it's just an example 15:10:48 <andythenorth> so more examples: 15:10:51 <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't need to be happening at all 15:10:54 <andythenorth> - industry wants to close, what happens? 15:11:45 *** KouDy [~KouDy@115.133.15.129] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:12:38 <Eddi|zuHause> industry tells the game it wants to close. game checks global conditions (like protection of last industry) and then decides whether to close or not. if a gamescript is running, game may issue an event to the gamescript, so the game script can decide what happens 15:13:17 <andythenorth> [details] so interface might remain same (return 03 to cb29 or cb35) ? 15:13:25 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 15:13:30 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B25B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 15:13:55 <Eddi|zuHause> just the NewGRF may not expect it to actually happen the way it requested it 15:14:09 <andythenorth> fine 15:14:27 <andythenorth> - newgrf has a new type available to build, and wants it on the map, what happens? 15:15:59 <Eddi|zuHause> that's a tricky one. currently, only cb22 may tell the game that the probabilities have changed. the question is, whether that is enough 15:16:13 *** flaa [~flaa@188.141.45.124] has joined #openttd 15:17:43 <drush> are there any cross-compiling devs here? 15:18:19 <Eddi|zuHause> cross from what to where? 15:18:33 <andythenorth> putting implementation aside, principle is the same as closing no? Newgrf tells game it wants a new industry type to appear (with extreme prejudice); game decides outcome, with optional event for GS 15:19:01 <drush> Eddi|zuHause: cross from linux to ps3 (I've got the toolchain needed) 15:19:25 <Eddi|zuHause> and what's the problem? 15:19:42 <drush> there's a couple 15:20:28 <drush> first, does configure script have a toolchain prefix option? 15:20:45 <drush> second, I really want to avoid -rdynamic flag (unsupported by toolchain) 15:21:06 <NGC3982> http://fac.dndr.se/appe/apperitolina_demo1.mp3 15:21:52 <TrueBrain> NGC3982: please refrain from such random links; it is not appreciated in this channel (even more without context) 15:22:32 <drush> third, that I can actually solve, is that there's code that looks for asm-generic/ioctl.h, but I have that in my toolchain inside a different directory (that can be changed, but a logic switch would be better) 15:23:15 <drush> such logic switch that if OS=PS3, then use the one supplied in the ps3 toolchain 15:23:25 <drush> otherwise continue as usual 15:24:03 <NGC3982> TrueBrain: sure thing 15:24:05 <NGC3982> S*. 15:24:24 <Eddi|zuHause> drush: there's a "CC_HOST" and "CC_TARGET", not sure what they do, though 15:25:13 <drush> host is the machine the outcome is supposed to run 15:25:24 <drush> run on* 15:25:28 <Eddi|zuHause> no, host is the compiling machine 15:25:34 <Eddi|zuHause> for things like strgen and stuff 15:25:38 <drush> isn't build the compiling machine? 15:25:52 <Eddi|zuHause> target is the machine it should run on 15:26:26 *** Zuu_ [~Zuu@109.58.146.209.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Quit: Zuu_] 15:26:46 *** Zuu_ [~Zuu@109.58.146.209.bredband.tre.se] has joined #openttd 15:26:58 *** Zuu_ [~Zuu@109.58.146.209.bredband.tre.se] has quit [] 15:27:05 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: sorry to say, but you used the wrong tupple there :) 15:27:12 <TrueBrain> OpenTTD uses the CC_BUILD / CC_HOST pair 15:27:18 <Eddi|zuHause> ok. 15:27:32 <Eddi|zuHause> then i have an outdated wiki page 15:27:41 <drush> Eddi: the mingw page? 15:27:45 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 15:27:52 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: basically, there are 2 systems to do that .. BUILD/HOST and HOST/TARGET 15:27:55 <TrueBrain> which is confusing like fuck 15:28:00 <TrueBrain> depending on the software another pair is used 15:28:03 <drush> you're telling me TrueBrain 15:28:18 <TrueBrain> well drush, you could just have read the manual 15:28:19 <TrueBrain> --build=BUILD configure for building on BUILD [guessed] 15:28:21 <TrueBrain> --host=HOST cross-compile to build programs to run 15:28:22 <TrueBrain> on HOST [BUILD] 15:28:24 <TrueBrain> it is not rocket science ;) 15:28:26 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: then it was probably changed in the makefile rewrite 15:28:30 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: possibly 15:28:34 <Eddi|zuHause> meaning the page is like 5 years outdated :p 15:28:34 <TrueBrain> we once used BUILD/TARGET 15:28:36 <TrueBrain> which was even worse :D 15:28:39 <TrueBrain> got to go, back in a few 15:31:29 <andythenorth> so except cb22 (called randomly on an industry type), all current industry cbs are specific to an industry instance 15:31:42 <andythenorth> maybe there should be a regular cb to grf 15:31:58 <andythenorth> called multiple times, allowing return values for various interesting things 15:33:16 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-85-91.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 15:33:28 <andythenorth> hmm, return value 09, increase global warming (amount in register 0x100) 15:33:29 <andythenorth> :P 15:34:34 *** TheDude [~Miranda@2.237.broadband7.iol.cz] has joined #openttd 15:34:36 <andythenorth> return value 07, request town to grow / shrink (signed) 15:34:48 <andythenorth> optional news message : 15:35:13 <andythenorth> "due to pollution town shrinks" or "due to employment town grows" 15:35:18 *** TheDude [~Miranda@2.237.broadband7.iol.cz] has quit [] 15:35:59 <andythenorth> ach, terrible examples, they are specific to industry instances, not general to the grf 15:38:26 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-20-85.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:43:02 <andythenorth> better examples 15:43:10 <andythenorth> - please turn on / off cargo type xyz 15:43:39 <Eddi|zuHause> idea: an industry could have an "economy effect" (like, number of jobs) 15:43:57 <andythenorth> magic cargo :) 15:43:58 <Eddi|zuHause> which determines the "size" of the industry 15:44:37 <Eddi|zuHause> so the game(script) would not aim to have a fixed number of industries, but a fixed number of jobs 15:44:46 * Alberth has already a job, namely 'tycoon' 15:44:50 <andythenorth> he 15:44:58 <Eddi|zuHause> and the game script could tie this to town growth 15:45:07 <andythenorth> ach, so also cargo destinations are interesting, haven't thought about those much 15:45:21 <andythenorth> but PAX might prefer a town with 'more tourism industries' or such :P 15:45:56 <drac_boy> Alberth heh, I always have "company leader" a lot of the times :p 15:47:02 <Alberth> drac_boy: that's a good job too :) 15:49:15 <andythenorth> so some kind of regular cb to the industry grf seems wise 15:49:24 <andythenorth> daily probably way too frequent, monthly enough 15:50:29 <andythenorth> with return values including: try to build industry of type x (n instances); turn cargo on / off; news message(s) 15:51:02 <andythenorth> changing cargo payment rates might be nice, but I think the game handles that horribly right now 15:51:05 <andythenorth> iirc 15:51:19 <drac_boy> Alberth yeah ... and the company value varies from 1DEM to very high values depending :p 15:53:57 <Alberth> I only care about money coming in faster than I can build :p 15:54:42 <drac_boy> Alberth well I don't ... I run light mixed trains with as much single tracks as there could be 15:54:45 <drac_boy> so :P 15:55:47 *** KouDy [~KouDy@115.133.15.129] has joined #openttd 15:56:10 <Alberth> single tracks are bad with breakdowns enabled :) 15:57:43 <drac_boy> not really :p 15:59:51 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so closing many small industries frees up labour pool to build fewer large industries? 16:00:00 <andythenorth> each industry has a labour factor 16:00:04 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 16:00:08 <andythenorth> therefore game 'knows' about small and large industries 16:00:19 <Eddi|zuHause> exactly, that's the point 16:00:44 <andythenorth> and closure of one primary or secondary due to (poor performance, run out of resources, whatever) - frees up labour for a new industry? 16:05:22 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: scope labour pool to town or global? 16:05:26 <andythenorth> or some intermediate region? 16:05:34 <Eddi|zuHause> possibly both 16:05:58 <andythenorth> x% of town popn works 16:06:04 <andythenorth> hmm 16:06:08 <andythenorth> it could all work 16:06:09 <Eddi|zuHause> town growth may be too fast 16:06:26 <andythenorth> smells a bit of classical economics, but I like the gameplay possibilities :) 16:08:11 <drac_boy> Alberth btw theres a reason theres always at least one possible detour route somewhere :) 16:10:02 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: interesting possibilities, like not enough population in remote areas with natural resources 16:10:31 <andythenorth> combine population requirements with ability to seed areas of map with certain industry types 16:10:37 <andythenorth> gameplay gets a lot more interesting to me 16:11:09 <Eddi|zuHause> "natural ressources" may be a good town scope effect. the game itself wouldn't care, but a game script may 16:11:09 <andythenorth> I think this would be a good [optional] element to NoCo 16:11:41 <andythenorth> I don't know if population is a specific thing or a variant of magic cargos 16:11:49 <andythenorth> I'm thinking of magic cargos as frosch(?) had them 16:11:50 <Eddi|zuHause> the game script will then make "agricultural towns", "forest towns", "mining towns" etc. 16:11:59 <andythenorth> ^ nice 16:12:25 <Eddi|zuHause> but the newgrf must be prepared for it 16:12:29 <andythenorth> yes 16:12:42 <andythenorth> can't avoid tying newgrf + GS together somehow 16:12:52 <Eddi|zuHause> so there must be a property with a universal set of values 16:13:18 <andythenorth> I recall magic cargos are things like VOLT (electricity) etc 16:13:28 <Eddi|zuHause> "this is a mine", "this is a plantation", "this is a farm" 16:13:41 <andythenorth> industry label scheme :P 16:13:58 <Alberth> cargo types of production should be sufficient, probably 16:14:04 <andythenorth> yes 16:14:12 <andythenorth> maintain sets of known cargo labels? 16:14:40 <Alberth> until we get weekly new industry sets, that seems doable to me :) 16:14:48 <Eddi|zuHause> well there are already flags for "extractive" industries etc. 16:14:59 <Eddi|zuHause> just has to be clarified what they should mean 16:15:10 <Alberth> perhaps you can use the classification of the cargo? 16:15:25 <andythenorth> union of type flag and produced cargos 16:16:50 <andythenorth> might be overkill :P 16:25:37 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: but one industry could produce a cargo from natural ressources, and antoher from synthetic chemistry 16:26:08 <Eddi|zuHause> like, rubber 16:26:10 <Alberth> and? 16:26:12 <Eddi|zuHause> or something 16:26:24 <andythenorth> so look at type and cargo? 16:26:24 <Eddi|zuHause> so you can't judge from the cargo alone 16:26:50 <andythenorth> stuff goes badly when we try to make it too detailed, or so cargo classes suggests :) 16:28:17 <Alberth> perhaps you should look at input too, but I think that you always go wrong at some point, unless you code industry knowledge in the GS 16:28:27 <Alberth> +type 16:29:06 <Alberth> but perhaps first make something that works somewhat before you start optimizing? 16:29:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm thinking a property of general industry characteristics. like primary/extractive/surface, primary/extractive/underground, primary/natural/summer, primary/natural/full year, secondary/clean, secondary/dirty, tertiary 16:30:58 <Alberth> tag cloud! 16:31:30 * Alberth adds 'dinner' 16:32:12 <Eddi|zuHause> examples (in the same order): sand pit, coal mine, farm, forest, brewery, refinery, bank 16:32:39 <Eddi|zuHause> a game script may make sure that no two "dirty" industries are in the same town 16:34:00 *** drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable133.8-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has left #openttd [I'm done being in this room!] 16:41:19 *** Chrill [Chrill@c83-253-89-11.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #openttd 16:41:31 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, secondary/energy could be one of them 16:42:30 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... must screw up my system now... 16:42:36 <drush> I've ran into a new problem whilst cross-compiling 16:43:43 <drush> I fixed all include and lib paths by hand, used HOST and BUILD equal to the toolchain, this generates a strgen for ppc64 16:44:19 <Eddi|zuHause> BUILD must be the regular linux compiler 16:44:26 <Eddi|zuHause> exaclty for strgen and stuff 16:44:29 <drush> ah 16:44:43 <drush> thank you 16:44:51 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD4844.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 16:45:50 <TrueBrain> does Eddi know where the exit button is?! 16:57:39 *** peter1138 [~petern@petern.bnsnet.co.uk] has joined #openttd 16:57:42 *** mode/#openttd [+o peter1138] by ChanServ 17:23:32 <peter1138> Windows update still is not working :-( 17:28:35 <TrueBrain> :( 17:28:45 <TrueBrain> Windows being Windows :( 17:32:21 *** Zuu_ [~Zuu@58833e24.test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 17:32:33 <TrueBrain> we werent talking about you Zuu_, I promise :D 17:32:36 <TrueBrain> hihi :D 17:32:37 <TrueBrain> wb :) 17:33:04 <Zuu_> You mean, while I have been away? 17:33:17 <TrueBrain> last time you came because we talked about you :P 17:33:18 *** Frankr [~chatzilla@cpc4-pres13-2-0-cust231.pres.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 17:33:21 <TrueBrain> I am just teasing 17:33:26 * andythenorth was away 17:33:31 <andythenorth> did I miss it getting solved? 17:33:39 <TrueBrain> depends on 'it' 17:33:40 <andythenorth> sometimes, peter1138 solves it 17:33:43 <andythenorth> whatever it is 17:34:57 <Zuu_> Hehe. I followed the logs, but feared that I would lost my connection too many times so I quit from IRC. 17:35:23 <TrueBrain> :D 17:35:41 <Zuu_> Now Im back at the main lines and should be better off. :) 17:36:01 <TrueBrain> I can kick you, just to point out you aren't :P 17:38:27 <Zuu_> Hehe. The current train even have a 3G connection that it maintains and offer through WiFi. 17:39:57 <Zuu_> Eg more stable but usecure aainst evasdropping from fellow passengers. :) 17:40:04 <Zuu_> Against* 17:40:49 <Zuu_> Hello btw :) 17:49:33 * andythenorth should organise all these NoCo ideas into sanity 17:50:06 <TrueBrain> sanity? 17:50:08 <TrueBrain> wuth? 17:50:16 <andythenorth> sorry 17:50:18 <andythenorth> insanity 17:50:22 <TrueBrain> good :D 18:03:43 <andythenorth> I think introduction of 'workforce' is the most insane idea for a while 18:03:49 <andythenorth> might be insane enough to be good 18:05:14 <andythenorth> hmm 18:05:24 <andythenorth> is it even true to say GS can trigger a newgrf cb? 18:05:35 <andythenorth> someone explained how GS worked to me once, but I forget :P 18:07:16 <TrueBrain> it _can_ do everything, that is of little issue :P 18:07:40 <Alberth> openttd is like a big set of functions to a GS 18:08:44 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD4844.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 18:09:26 <Eddi|zuHause> ok, i successfully screwed up my system 18:09:32 <Zuu_> And a GS is like a thread that runs continuesly. (actually it isnt) 18:10:13 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: I already asked if you even knew where the exit button was .. don't scare us like that please :P 18:10:44 <Eddi|zuHause> on boot, the driver says something like "no supported video devices found" 18:10:51 <Zuu_> Eg it may be busy doing something while openttd puts an event in its inbox. 18:11:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i now booted in a backup system 18:11:12 <Eddi|zuHause> that i totally forgot how to boot into :p 18:12:03 <TrueBrain> well, you managed 18:12:06 <TrueBrain> that is the important thing :P 18:14:12 <Eddi|zuHause> now i still have no idea what to do, though 18:14:48 <Eddi|zuHause> everything is configured the wrong way 18:15:47 <Alberth> oh, I should remove my kernel, forgot about that, thanks :) 18:16:06 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 18:16:25 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not depending on kernel, i tried booting into multiple ones 18:16:34 <Eddi|zuHause> from 3.1.10 to 3.5.1 18:17:00 <Zuu_> Btw, is setting up a jail complicated? ( for someone who has not done it before) 18:17:07 <Alberth> my 3.5.[01] kernel crashes Xorg on the nouveau driver 18:17:56 <Zuu_> I though about setting up some AI battles in jail. 18:18:25 <TrueBrain> why? they are already contained? 18:20:28 <Zuu_> Or maybe a vm is easier. 18:20:51 <TrueBrain> why? they are already contained? 18:20:53 <TrueBrain> :) 18:21:08 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: translators * r24464 /trunk/src/lang/ (korean.txt slovak.txt): 18:21:08 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 18:21:08 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: korean - 5 changes by telk5093 18:21:08 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: slovak - 19 changes by klingacik 18:21:56 <Zuu_> The AIs are, but not OpenTTD or the script to run the battles. 18:22:14 <TrueBrain> normally you use a jail if it is possible to escape an application 18:22:22 <TrueBrain> for security reasons 18:22:29 <TrueBrain> but running a battle, how can that be an issue? 18:24:12 <Alberth> Zuu_: run them as a different user? 18:24:51 <Alberth> although I agree with TB in not seeing the need 18:25:49 <Zuu_> A single battle would not be an issue, but if you start to automate it and let it run over time it doesent hurt to secure it from accesseng the rest o the system. 18:26:05 <TrueBrain> then you want a VM 18:26:11 <TrueBrain> as a jail only protects against directory access 18:26:22 <TrueBrain> *BSD does also against process access, kinda 18:26:28 <TrueBrain> but it is easily avaded 18:26:33 <TrueBrain> aveded? 18:26:34 <TrueBrain> what-ever :P 18:27:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i'll try to un-screw my system now... 18:27:58 <Zuu_> Ok. Dont hol your breath though. Im thinking about prioritizing a new tutorial chapter for the moment. 18:28:13 <Zuu_> Hold* 18:28:25 <TrueBrain> :P 18:28:57 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 18:29:05 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD4844.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:29:09 <andythenorth> are apple laptops waterproof? 18:29:43 <TrueBrain> waterresistent at best 18:29:49 <TrueBrain> waterproof is a myth in many cases :P 18:29:56 <andythenorth> splashproof perhaps? 18:30:26 <Rubidium> they are pretty water proof. At the slightest proof of water your warranty is void 18:30:30 <andythenorth> having seen the insides, I suspect the keyboard might be the weak spot for splashproofness 18:31:05 <TrueBrain> I know the latest models have a pretty clever solution there 18:31:09 <TrueBrain> you can spill water on it 18:31:11 <TrueBrain> and it will still work 18:32:09 <andythenorth> well my toddler is testing it for me anyway 18:32:34 <TrueBrain> hehe 18:39:18 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD4844.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 18:44:34 <andythenorth> improve? http://paste.openttdcoop.org/raw/1650/ 18:45:43 *** KouDy [~KouDy@115.133.15.129] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:46:10 *** Frankr [~chatzilla@cpc4-pres13-2-0-cust231.pres.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:55:50 <Alberth> too diverse imho 18:56:07 <andythenorth> it's not really one thing yet 18:56:40 <andythenorth> markers are a nice idea, but probably aren't NoCo 18:57:33 *** bryjen [~bryjen@75.81.247.49] has joined #openttd 18:58:06 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host86-154-36-54.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:58:20 <Eddi|zuHause> might simply have the GameScript read signs on startup (and immediately delete them) 18:58:56 <Alberth> like some Z person has already implemented? :) 18:59:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i thought the idea sounded familiar :) 19:00:39 <Zuu_> Some Z person even packed that as a lib. 19:00:46 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway... had to downgrade the graphics driver (either they really screwed up the release, or they removed support for fairly recent hardware already) and had to downgrade kernel, because the old driver wouldn't build 19:00:49 *** peter1138 [~petern@petern.bnsnet.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 19:01:57 <Eddi|zuHause> now i have to either edit the menu.lst, or remember that second part the next time i boot :p 19:02:39 <andythenorth> there were some good ideas today / yesterday, did I miss any from that NoCo list? 19:02:47 <andythenorth> more is better, we can edit later 19:03:18 *** TheDude [~Miranda@ip-86-49-102-148.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 19:03:39 <Eddi|zuHause> the thing about describing the industry type with a few universal properties 19:03:51 <Eddi|zuHause> which the game script can then use for placement rules 19:03:52 <Alberth> andythenorth: newgrf requesting all kinds of things does not make a lot of sense to me, I like the idea expressed by Eddi a few days ago, the game has mechanisms, and newgrfs fill in settings and tweaks to customize behaviour 19:04:05 <Eddi|zuHause> instead the newgrf implementing them on construction callback 19:04:26 <Eddi|zuHause> *instead of 19:04:26 <TheDude> hi 19:05:45 <TheDude> Eddi, to the cargo in GS, I mentioned earlier, I admit I was wrong, but what I though is that GS cant set a goal for any cargo, only for cargos with town effect, and that is what I miss there 19:06:15 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: added properties idea 19:06:20 <Alberth> TheDude: what do you mean "goal for a cargo" ? 19:06:56 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: "deliver 1000 coal to this town" 19:07:10 <andythenorth> Alberth: 'requesting' is more or less current behaviour so I find it easy to describe :) Can you help describe the alternative idea? 19:07:33 <Alberth> you can do that for any cargo 19:08:01 <Alberth> http://nogo.openttd.org/api/trunk/classGSCargoMonitor.html 19:08:59 <TheDude> I mean this SetCargoGoal (TownID town_id, GSCargo::TownEffect towneffect_id, uint32 goal) 19:09:25 <TheDude> ah, yes, that one 19:09:32 <Zuu_> But you then need to manually grow the town. If the goal is men fo town growth. 19:09:54 <Zuu_> If.using ra carges without town effect. 19:10:15 <Alberth> andythenorth: a newgrf cannot request opening nor decide closing, as it has no overview, it can just provide information to the game to allow it to make good decisions 19:10:18 <TrueBrain> Zuu_: I think the line is bad, your english is breaking up :D 19:10:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu_: your keyboard is broken 19:10:55 <Zuu_> Yep. See you soon from a real keyboard. :) 19:11:04 *** Zuu_ [~Zuu@58833e24.test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Bye] 19:11:28 <TrueBrain> TheDude: although GS has a clean API for TownEffects and its growing of a town, which is easy and fast to implement, it also has a much lower level control 19:11:37 <TrueBrain> it does require you to do more work, but then you can make it grow for what-ever reason 19:11:40 <TrueBrain> including any cargo 19:11:52 <TrueBrain> but even noise level, amount of houses, and for all I care: your name or company value 19:12:16 <Alberth> if name == "myname": win! 19:12:23 <andythenorth> Alberth: do you have any ideas for which information is needed? 19:12:23 <TrueBrain> always-grow, but yes :P 19:12:42 * andythenorth is thinking 19:13:23 <Alberth> andythenorth: information about how to build it (ie terraform stuff), and how happy it is 19:13:31 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: that's awfully close to "if (username == admin && password == backdoor)" 19:13:34 <Alberth> seems to be the most interesting candidates 19:13:46 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: what is wrong with that? :D 19:13:53 <TrueBrain> I once saw it in Open Source software, hidden in de code 19:13:57 <TrueBrain> made me laugh my ass off :D 19:14:10 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: "close"? :D 19:14:40 <andythenorth> happiness is a range 19:15:13 <andythenorth> hmm 19:15:33 <andythenorth> so controlling when industries appear is taken out of scope for newgrf? 19:15:35 <Alberth> perhaps some indications of what other industries it needs, but that may be pretty obvious from the cargoes 19:16:37 <Alberth> as in "can only appear after 19XY?" seems a good form of information to me 19:17:16 <Alberth> oh probability of appearance would be useful too perhaps and the total number of industries 19:17:18 <andythenorth> k, I think 'request' was a bad choice of word 19:17:44 <andythenorth> the problem is that I want to remove 'guarantee' which is what newgrfs currently get wrt closing etc 19:18:20 <andythenorth> spec ensures that a newgrf author can control closing currently 19:18:36 <Alberth> yeah I know, it sucks, badly 19:18:39 <andythenorth> I think that should be delegated to game, and implicitly GS 19:19:33 <andythenorth> which in my simple brain just means changing how result 03 is handled for cb 29 / cb 35 19:19:45 <andythenorth> 'happiness' is a little more sophisticated 19:19:58 *** Frankr [~chatzilla@cpc4-pres13-2-0-cust231.pres.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:20:20 <andythenorth> 'can only appear after xyz date' is just cb22 in current form, unchanged 19:20:37 <andythenorth> that includes probability of appearance 19:21:13 *** Fawksie [~Fawksie@hertz.fewlishfox.co.uk] has joined #openttd 19:21:58 <andythenorth> I'll just change 'requests' to 'indicates' :P 19:22:04 <andythenorth> it comes out about the same then 19:22:44 <Alberth> why not express 'indication to open' as a non-zero probability for cb22? 19:22:56 <andythenorth> that's how it works :) 19:23:19 <Alberth> perhaps with control of the total number of industries as well 19:23:32 <andythenorth> that's the missing part 19:23:46 <Alberth> so you can decide whether to expand the number of industries or do it by replacement 19:24:33 <andythenorth> expanding the number of industries sounds like another case for my regular cb to the newgrf level (rather than to individual industries) 19:25:04 <andythenorth> actually, it might just be a flag on cb22 return result? 19:25:24 <andythenorth> allow increase total number of industries 19:25:35 <Alberth> a table like the snowline table is not sufficient? 19:26:19 <Eddi|zuHause> a table is difficult when it should become dynamic (depending on date) 19:27:03 <Alberth> I see it as a function on date, for every year 19:27:20 <Alberth> eg 1 value for each month from 1950 to 2050 19:27:22 <andythenorth> in the newgrf? 19:27:25 <Eddi|zuHause> so it has 5000000 entries? 19:27:42 <Alberth> although you may want to have a more compact notation for that :) 19:28:21 <Eddi|zuHause> no, a table is a bad idea 19:28:27 <Alberth> most newgrfs do nothing the last 4800000 years :) 19:28:46 <andythenorth> newgrf can count the number of industries at any point 19:28:52 <Eddi|zuHause> but there is the 500 years in the future project°!°°! 19:29:14 <Alberth> ok, the last 4300000 years then :D 19:29:25 <andythenorth> this could just be calculated at run time 19:30:00 * andythenorth is favouring letting newgrfs do more emergent stuff and less scripted stuff 19:30:05 <Eddi|zuHause> it's still a bad idea. a callback could do it in 1 range check 19:30:09 <andythenorth> let the GS do the scripted stuff 19:30:47 <andythenorth> he 19:31:06 * andythenorth considers removing all intro dates from FIRS, and starting a GS 19:31:08 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I'd like to separate the number of industries cb from other cbs 19:31:20 <Alberth> whether or not it is a real table is not that important 19:32:04 <Eddi|zuHause> and is it the job of the newgrf to scale by map size, or does the game apply scaling? 19:32:13 <andythenorth> game :P 19:32:29 <andythenorth> there are some issues with that though 19:32:34 <andythenorth> was thinking about it earlier 19:33:04 <andythenorth> for a set with 50 industries, if the example map size is 256x256, I'd just set each industry to have 1 instance 19:33:05 <Alberth> density and map size are not orthogonal 19:33:07 <andythenorth> which scales stupidly :P 19:33:49 <drush> ladies, gentlemen, and everyone else, 19:34:24 <drush> 3rdparty/squirrel compiles for ps3, next stop: solving tcp.h issues 19:34:45 <drush> that is all, thank you 19:34:50 <Alberth> andythenorth: I can see that a newgrf is in a better psition to compute such a scaling 19:34:58 <michi_cc> andythenorth: NewGRF :) At least aircraft range was implemented this way. 19:35:12 * andythenorth is just lazy :P 19:35:21 <andythenorth> scaling things by map size is dull 19:35:26 <andythenorth> ask whoever deleted it from FIRS :P 19:36:16 <Alberth> don't implement it, and the game will do it for you :p 19:36:32 <andythenorth> not in the case of clustering ;) 19:36:44 <andythenorth> no matter what map size, you'll get the same number of clusters in nml FIRS :) 19:36:52 <andythenorth> but I digress 19:38:43 <andythenorth> Alberth: wrt industry cbs, what's your aim? 19:38:47 <andythenorth> I missed that comment above 19:39:03 <andythenorth> separate how / which? :) 19:40:32 <Alberth> I see the method to obtain the desired total number of industries as a separate call, not something you can stick to cb22 19:40:45 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd 19:41:06 <Alberth> but given my major involvements with newgrf extensions, I may be wrong here :p 19:41:53 <andythenorth> I think it's something separate 19:42:16 <andythenorth> I am quite favouring one utility cb to the industry newgrf 19:42:38 <Alberth> sounds good 19:42:38 <Alberth> anyways, I wish all of you a few nice hours of evening, and see you again soon-ish 19:42:47 <andythenorth> bye ;) 19:42:59 *** Alberth [~hat3@2001:980:272e:1:21a:92ff:fe55:fc8d] has left #openttd [] 19:43:12 <andythenorth> utility cb to industry newgrf would be similar to how cb36 works for vehicles 19:43:45 <Eddi|zuHause> it needs to be a global callback 19:44:12 <andythenorth> global = to the newgrf, not the industry type / instance? 19:44:32 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 19:44:37 <andythenorth> or do you mean to all active industry newgrfs? 19:44:43 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i think it should just return the total number of industries 19:45:00 <andythenorth> I am +1 to that way of doing it 19:45:08 <Eddi|zuHause> well, global callbacks are chained. the first one to return a valid return value wins 19:45:46 <andythenorth> maybe it should offer various values, e.g. 'fewer', 'more', 'specific number' 19:46:04 <Eddi|zuHause> that doesn't make a lot of sense 19:46:23 <andythenorth> hmm 19:46:31 <andythenorth> you could count them and offer 'fewer' anyway 19:46:31 <Eddi|zuHause> if you use the callback, you know the exact numbers 19:46:42 <Eddi|zuHause> if you don't use it, well, you don't use it 19:46:46 <andythenorth> trying to provide ways to make the newgrf less specific :P 19:46:52 <andythenorth> hints, not instructions 19:47:28 <andythenorth> I guess newgrf just says "I need this many" and hopes the game or GS agrees 19:47:32 <andythenorth> enough 19:55:46 <Fawksie> ning folks, I've just installed 1.2.1 from the Debian repo and I'm not getting any content appearing in the online content downloader 19:55:48 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: labour force <- core game, or strictly newgrf? 19:55:58 <Fawksie> no such problems with 1.2.1 on Windows on the same network 19:56:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no idea. 19:56:38 <andythenorth> me neither :) 19:56:49 <andythenorth> core game could use some kind of interesting new feature :) 19:57:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Fawksie: firewall blocking UDP or something? 19:57:20 <Zuu> Fawksie: Have you edited the iptables rules? 19:58:02 <andythenorth> frosch123: was magic cargos your idea for electricity etc? 19:58:20 <Zuu> The defaults should probably be ok, but if you have tighten up the defaults, that may be the problem. 19:59:38 <Fawksie> Eddi|zuHause: none running, and it would be affecting the Windows machine as well if that were the case 19:59:43 <Fawksie> Zuu: iptables empty 20:03:30 <Eddi|zuHause> question: how the hell do i open a windows-16bit program in ida? if i open it as ms-dos, i only get the "must be run in windows" part, and if i try to open it as PE (windows) then it says the file type is not recognized 20:05:09 <frosch123> andythenorth: there was a idea about making houses and industries produce "town effects" 20:05:44 <andythenorth> can we 'simply' make it an automagic cargo system? 20:06:00 <frosch123> i.e. producing town effect not via accepting certain cargos, but via production of specific industries 20:06:26 <andythenorth> town acts as clearing house (single point) for exchanging supplied / accepted cargos like VOLT, _GAS etc 20:06:28 <frosch123> but the idea is not completely thought through 20:06:40 <andythenorth> make a new pool for these cargos 20:06:55 <andythenorth> put a flag on the cargo definition to put it in this pool, not the regular pool 20:07:05 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: for starters, you should stop calling them "cargos" :) 20:07:13 <andythenorth> allow industries to produce / require these cargos via normal means 20:07:17 <andythenorth> supplies :P 20:07:25 <andythenorth> I want them to be cargos 20:07:34 <andythenorth> then just use the existing machinery for produce / accept etc 20:07:37 <andythenorth> no bloat 20:07:46 <andythenorth> houses can accept / produce them 20:07:57 <frosch123> the plan was somewhat to mark cargos as town effects 20:08:00 <andythenorth> town can require certain levels for growth (positive or negative) 20:08:07 <frosch123> so, they would not be delivered to stations, but directly to the town 20:08:12 <andythenorth> frosch123: and deliver via vehicles, or magic? 20:08:25 <frosch123> vehicles transport cargos 20:09:14 <frosch123> cargos can be transformed into town effects by either being accepted by houses stating to process certain cargos into towneffects, or by industries producing town effects as output 20:09:39 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: 16-bit windows exe are NE (New Executable) format, maybe IDA offers that somewhere. 20:09:46 <frosch123> towneffects cannot be transported, but appear immediately at the town 20:10:09 <frosch123> though, stuff might check towneffects provided in the past 20:10:54 *** Frankr [~chatzilla@cpc4-pres13-2-0-cust231.pres.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:11:17 *** drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable133.8-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd 20:11:25 <drac_boy> hi 20:11:59 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: it only has NE device drivers, not executables... 20:12:14 <andythenorth> frosch123: I think it comes to about the same as the thing I'm thinking of 20:12:32 <andythenorth> I'm only calling it cargos because I'm familiar with how those work 20:12:50 <michi_cc> It has? Because device drivers (VxD) were usually LE (linear executable, originally used by OS/2) format. 20:13:05 <andythenorth> Would houses be able to generate town effects directly? You wouldn't turn houses into mini-industries requiring input to get output? 20:13:51 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: it says "PE/LE/NE Device Drivers" 20:13:58 *** Phoenix_the_II [~ralph@f72217.upc-f.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 20:22:27 <frosch123> andythenorth: houses have no state 20:22:39 <frosch123> so they have to produce towneffect immediately on acceptance 20:23:23 <frosch123> though i am not sure who shall specifiy what cargos turn into what towneffects 20:23:25 <andythenorth> can they produce on any other loop (i.e. nothing arrived) 20:23:27 <frosch123> the house, or the cargo :) 20:23:38 <andythenorth> town :P 20:23:42 <andythenorth> via a horrible mapping :P 20:23:44 <frosch123> houses can produce cargos 20:23:51 <frosch123> so they would also be able to produce towneffects 20:24:03 <andythenorth> they can produce n cargos via that cb that loops n times? 20:24:08 <frosch123> yeah 20:24:31 <andythenorth> hmm 20:24:48 <andythenorth> the only problem I see with my idea is having houses consume directly 20:25:09 <andythenorth> I wanted a loop to run which sums total demand, and total supply for each effect 20:25:18 <andythenorth> and then nets the result 20:25:30 <andythenorth> I guess town can kind of do that anyway :P 20:25:34 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: the cargo defines a town effect, and the industry may choose to issue that town effect or not. houses always issue town effect. 20:25:52 <andythenorth> ugh 20:26:18 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: industry should not produce towneffecty by accepting certain cargotypes 20:26:19 <andythenorth> leaves a lot of control with the industry newgrf no? 20:26:21 <frosch123> but as production 20:26:36 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, during production callback 20:26:47 <frosch123> just as output cargos 20:26:47 <Eddi|zuHause> industries will not issue town effect by default 20:27:07 <frosch123> the industry window shall just say: this industry produced electricity 20:27:21 <Eddi|zuHause> industry can produce town effect from totally unrelated cargos as well 20:27:36 <frosch123> yes 20:27:38 <andythenorth> I was trying to figure out if this could also handle 'workforce', but I think it can't 20:27:41 <Eddi|zuHause> or from no cargo at all 20:28:23 <frosch123> just like a industry can produce cargos out of other cargos, or without anything 20:28:31 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: town effect "jobs"? 20:28:38 <andythenorth> maybe 20:28:43 <frosch123> "employment" 20:29:00 <andythenorth> industry needs to consume it 20:29:11 <Eddi|zuHause> no, the industry produces "jobs" 20:29:12 <andythenorth> tying it to actual cargo confuses me 20:29:25 <Eddi|zuHause> no cargo needs town effect "jobs" 20:29:31 <andythenorth> so how is it defined? 20:29:32 <Eddi|zuHause> because the industry can make it up on the fly 20:29:41 <andythenorth> town effect is defined by cargos 20:29:46 <__ln__> who would have guessed it's here: https://maps.google.fi/maps?hl=fi&ll=60.652993%2C24.777174&spn=0.024146%2C0.084543&t=m&z=14 20:29:54 <Eddi|zuHause> no, town effect is defined by town effect (new feature) 20:30:01 <Eddi|zuHause> a cargo has an associated town effect 20:30:07 <Eddi|zuHause> but it does not define it 20:31:08 <andythenorth> k 20:31:13 <andythenorth> that makes a little more sense to me 20:32:33 <Eddi|zuHause> alternatively, the town effect is defined implicitly. i.e. cargo has a property with a town effect, and industry has a property with one or more town effects 20:33:01 <Eddi|zuHause> and just by setting that property, the town effect will be defined (if not defined before) 20:33:20 <Eddi|zuHause> then the industry can not produce any other town effects than the ones described 20:33:42 <Eddi|zuHause> but that sounds like a bad idea 20:34:57 <andythenorth> the main issue for me is how to ensure cooperation 20:35:13 <andythenorth> across house newgrf, town control newgrf, industry newgrf, GS 20:39:01 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: maybe it's a secret military base and they fucked up the editing/censoring? :) 20:39:21 <NGC3982> http://i.imgur.com/eg6RT.png 20:39:24 <NGC3982> Eeeh. 20:39:47 <NGC3982> Why do i never learn to not build on trafficed rails. 20:44:35 <drush> omfg 20:45:03 * drac_boy is a bit confused why you have so many trains? 20:46:18 <drush> I wonder too 20:46:32 <drush> that factory is out of reach of the station 20:46:48 <drush> so I think it's a passenger+mail and maybe goods station 20:47:06 <drac_boy> drush..unlikely...thats a pax-only train 20:47:25 <drush> pax? 20:47:55 <drac_boy> yeah 20:50:35 <Eddi|zuHause> talking about construcive answers :p 20:50:55 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: "pax" is short for "passengers" 20:51:02 <drush> I can give some opportunities for that 20:51:10 <Eddi|zuHause> (not sure why, honestly) 20:51:26 <drush> neither do I know Eddi, I thought pax is "passenger annex exchange" 20:51:36 <drush> but anyways, here's the opportunity: 20:51:44 <drush> there's a huge fail in cstdio and cstring in the ps3 build 20:52:07 <drush> a lot of stuff is undeclared 20:52:08 <drac_boy> NGC3982 you probably still haven't told us why you have so many trains? 20:52:24 <drush> I'll just make a pastie 20:52:29 <Eddi|zuHause> drush: missing an include file? 20:52:38 <drush> Eddi|zuHause most likely 20:52:41 <NGC3982> drac_boy, drush: I sent trains to the wrong station. 20:53:40 <drac_boy> NGC3982 oh how many trains were actually meant to call to that station? :/ 20:53:53 <NGC3982> five 20:54:05 <drac_boy> heh ok 21:00:19 <drush> Eddi|zuHause: http://pastebin.com/a7b5cZps 21:00:57 <drush> I can tell there is definitely some fundamental deficiency here 21:01:29 <drush> with regards to c++ libraries 21:02:02 <Eddi|zuHause> you might want to ask that to your library source 21:08:49 * andythenorth thinks bed 21:08:50 <andythenorth> bye 21:08:51 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #openttd [] 21:28:55 *** welterde [welterde@thinkbase.srv.welterde.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:33:39 *** bryjen [~bryjen@75.81.247.49] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:40:07 <drush> I hear this is a network issue 21:40:14 <drush> so for now I'm just going to disable network 21:40:23 <drush> just to see if that thing builds 21:40:26 <drush> at all 21:40:37 <Eddi|zuHause> md5 is used for checking consistency of NewGRFs 21:40:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. the file on disk matches with the one expected by the savegame 21:41:08 <Eddi|zuHause> so disabling network likely won't help 21:41:49 <drush> then why did that part require a tcp.h to be imported from newlib? 21:43:28 <drush> oh wait 21:43:39 <drush> wait, not that particular one 21:44:13 * drush feels dumb 21:44:25 <drac_boy> drush :) 21:46:35 <Rubidium> what? md5.cpp requires tcp.h? 21:50:14 <drush> no Rubidium 21:51:39 <drush> tcp.h was required by os_abstraction.h 21:52:24 <drush> whatever was done there before md5.cpp, it went smooth with ps3toolchain using newlib's netinet, netinet6 and net directories (containing headers ofc) 21:53:08 <drush> but I suspect this was dumb because those are not headers for gameos, so I'll disable network for now 21:53:22 <drush> one problem at a time 22:07:26 <frosch123> night 22:07:30 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fcc96.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:15:29 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:16:05 *** drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable133.8-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has left #openttd [I'm done being in this room!] 22:18:16 *** flaa [~flaa@188.141.45.124] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:40:17 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@78.96.213.97] has quit [Quit: DANGER sla.ro is OFFLINE DANGER] 22:44:28 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B25B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:47:05 *** TheDude [~Miranda@ip-86-49-102-148.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 22:59:47 <Eddi|zuHause> was there ever a reason why one can't remove their own statue? 23:01:15 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:08:37 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d161-184-227-133.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: Rhamphoryncus] 23:20:57 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host86-154-36-54.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 23:21:49 <drush> Eddi|zuHause: because the game doesn't want players to deny that they're egoists? 23:23:08 *** roadt [~roadt@223.240.97.107] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:23:49 <drush> also 23:28:16 <drush> will need fontconfig, or disable it 23:31:32 <drush> Eddi|zuHause remember those errors I posted? 23:31:44 <drush> gone for some reason. what magic is this? 23:34:38 *** roadt [~roadt@223.240.97.107] has joined #openttd 23:34:49 *** Djohaal [~Djohaal@189.58.14.80.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #openttd 23:38:52 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-29-8.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 23:44:41 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-53-127.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:44:46 <Wolf01> 'night all 23:44:50 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@95.232.234.29] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 23:45:53 *** Frankr [~chatzilla@cpc4-pres13-2-0-cust231.pres.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 23:48:02 <Terkhen> good night 23:50:33 *** TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has quit [Quit: Hugs to all] 23:51:24 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host86-154-36-54.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:54:00 *** Frankr [~chatzilla@cpc4-pres13-2-0-cust231.pres.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]