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00:01:46 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d173-183-158-32.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 00:13:46 *** Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 00:29:22 *** Snail [~jacopocol@cpe-68-175-24-89.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 00:54:47 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-067-201.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [] 01:09:53 *** Snail [~jacopocol@cpe-68-175-24-89.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Snail] 01:31:56 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has left #openttd [] 02:02:40 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-122-148.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 02:02:43 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ 02:02:45 *** Frankr [~chatzilla@cpc4-pres13-2-0-cust231.pres.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 15.0/20120824154833]] 02:08:44 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-251-30.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:24:14 *** NataS [~Shep@00179a279bbd.click-network.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:24:16 *** Nat_aS [~Shep@00179a279bbd.click-network.com] has joined #openttd 02:24:55 *** argoneus [~argoneus@ip-78-102-118-47.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:40:02 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has joined #openttd 02:42:00 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:e920:fe57:6539:aa15] has quit [Quit: bye] 03:02:50 *** aditsu [~aditsu@183178080020.ctinets.com] has joined #openttd 03:03:35 <aditsu> hi, I joined a multiplayer game earlier, but now I get "network-game connection lost" every time I try to reconnect, what can I do about it? 03:26:03 <aditsu> oh, it worked eventually 03:37:13 *** aditsu [~aditsu@183178080020.ctinets.com] has left #openttd [] 04:02:01 *** Snail [~jacopocol@cpe-68-175-24-89.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 04:07:59 *** Snail [~jacopocol@cpe-68-175-24-89.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Snail] 04:14:26 *** KenjiE20 [kenjie20@supporter.blinkenshell.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:56:02 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD56A1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 04:56:41 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@87.189.93.57] has joined #openttd 05:16:41 *** andythenorth [~Andy@2002:4d66:7022:0:e53f:16de:6c74:28d1] has joined #openttd 05:24:01 *** Markavian` [~Markavian@78-105-168-146.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 05:31:26 *** Markavian [~Markavian@78-105-168-146.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:35:56 <andythenorth> lo 05:36:01 <Supercheese> salve 05:52:28 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@78.96.213.97] has joined #openttd 05:58:05 *** KnogleAFK [knogle@1604ds5-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #openttd 05:58:06 *** Knogle [knogle@1604ds5-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:59:47 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:00:11 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has joined #openttd 06:01:44 *** Noldo [~vheino@jumi.lut.fi] has joined #openttd 06:16:22 <Terkhen> good morning 06:37:05 *** andythenorth [~Andy@2002:4d66:7022:0:e53f:16de:6c74:28d1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:37:22 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 06:53:54 *** KnogleAFK is now known as Knogle 07:15:08 * andythenorth ponders NoConomy 07:15:19 <andythenorth> where is alberth? :) 07:18:19 <Terkhen> enjoying the weekend, I hope 07:18:23 <Terkhen> hi andythenorth 07:19:59 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@5070A0D5.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has joined #openttd 07:24:51 <andythenorth> hmm 07:24:55 <andythenorth> no frosch either :) 07:26:17 <andythenorth> so anyway 07:26:31 <andythenorth> newgrf has multiple ways to exert control over production 07:26:49 <andythenorth> if newgrf lost ability to set prod_level, that would be cleaner 07:26:54 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host218-143-dynamic.48-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 07:27:19 <andythenorth> then ottd could set prod_level to [whatever] NoConomy decides 07:27:42 <andythenorth> then GS could tell ottd NoConomy methods what prod_level to set 07:27:43 <Wolf01> hello 07:27:48 <andythenorth> and then there are no conflicts 07:28:01 <andythenorth> newgrf authors may have to write a little more code than previously, but it's not hard 07:28:28 <andythenorth> NoConomy provides a base prod_level multiplier 07:28:43 <andythenorth> each industry instance can then modify that according to any rules newgrf chooses 07:28:48 <andythenorth> it's clean 07:29:00 <planetmaker> sound simply like just another global variable 07:29:05 <planetmaker> good morning :-) 07:29:31 <andythenorth> in this case it involves removing some of the newgrf API 07:29:42 <andythenorth> but no functionality is lost, because there are other ways to get same result 07:30:01 <andythenorth> as Yexo proved last night with his FIRS patch, which was done without using prod_level 07:30:29 <andythenorth> because of the way it was patched it also works seamlessly with industry production cheat, which also happens to set prod_level 07:49:43 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@5070A0D5.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:53:33 <andythenorth> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/raw/1699/ 07:59:31 *** Alberth [~hat3@2001:980:272e:1:21a:92ff:fe55:fc8d] has joined #openttd 07:59:34 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 08:00:09 <Alberth> moin 08:02:25 <Terkhen> hi Alberth 08:02:57 <planetmaker> hi Alberth 08:03:19 <Alberth> 2 other devs awake already :) 08:07:12 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@ip212-238-98-158.hotspotsvankpn.com] has joined #openttd 08:08:20 <Terkhen> half awake actually :P 08:08:27 <andythenorth> bonjour Alberth 08:08:44 <andythenorth> 2 other devs, and one andythenorth trying to delete some of the newgrf spec 08:09:20 <Alberth> good, good, please proceed mr the north. 08:10:17 <andythenorth> this lacks context 08:10:18 <andythenorth> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/raw/1699/ 08:12:00 <Alberth> I would not mention noconomy at this time 08:13:14 <andythenorth> it's my shorthand for 'openttd should handle more economy stuff' 08:13:22 <andythenorth> and 'newgrfs should stop trying to handle it badly' 08:13:57 <andythenorth> but yeah, point 08:14:20 <Alberth> you should bring the change in a positive way, more co-operation with player actions, or better handling of probabilites or so 08:15:00 <Alberth> euhm co-ordination with player actions 08:15:21 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-054-033.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 08:15:27 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fd277.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 08:15:33 <Alberth> probability handling could be quite convincing imho 08:15:39 <Alberth> hi frosch 08:15:46 <andythenorth> you're proposing marketing? :O 08:15:48 <andythenorth> :) 08:15:54 <Alberth> duh :D 08:16:35 <frosch123> morning everone :) 08:16:39 <andythenorth> can't I just grumble about everything that is broken and should be rm-ed :P 08:16:43 <andythenorth> who needs benefits :P 08:17:46 <andythenorth> hi frosch123 08:18:09 <frosch123> if you have a method to rm -rf /tt-forums/off-topic, then i am all in 08:18:58 <andythenorth> is that a place I should go? 08:19:03 <andythenorth> I went there once by accident 08:19:07 <andythenorth> it was very annoying 08:19:18 <andythenorth> I nearly flamed everyone 08:19:39 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@ip212-238-98-158.hotspotsvankpn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:19:58 <frosch123> actually it is fine as long as they do not show up on the rest of the forums :p 08:20:27 <andythenorth> frosch123: so I have a proposal. To avoid confusion by talking about implementation instead of result.... 08:20:40 <andythenorth> ...the proposal is basically 'make prod_level read only for newgrf' 08:21:26 <andythenorth> and the 'benefit' is cleaner interface 08:21:43 <andythenorth> and possibility for more control to move back to openttd (and in future, GS) 08:23:58 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what's preventing you from simply not using it? 08:24:03 <andythenorth> nothing 08:24:12 <andythenorth> this is about a cleaner interface 08:24:31 <frosch123> write a tool which ranks newgrfs as andy-clean 08:24:56 <Eddi|zuHause> then rewrite all existing GRFs to this method 08:24:58 <frosch123> anyway, users can already change prod_level using cheats 08:25:01 <andythenorth> yes 08:25:04 <frosch123> so there is no problem with gs changing it 08:25:15 <andythenorth> except 08:25:16 <frosch123> if the newgrf conflicts, it's the user's fault 08:25:31 <andythenorth> so who wins cb29 / 35? 08:25:36 <andythenorth> you'd have to run an auction 08:25:56 <andythenorth> you now have two bidders for the result instead of one 08:26:04 <frosch123> andythenorth: just like for town growth 08:26:14 <frosch123> gs can set town growth to fixed rate, or to automatic 08:26:40 <frosch123> just always give priority to the gs 08:26:54 <andythenorth> so that's an auction 08:26:57 <andythenorth> and gs always wins 08:28:26 <andythenorth> ok, so that's a proposal to change spec of cb29 / 35? 08:28:48 <andythenorth> instead of: newgrf may set prod_level 08:29:02 <andythenorth> now: newgrf may attempt to set prod_level, but openttd may over-rule it 08:29:12 <Eddi|zuHause> in how far is there a "change"? 08:30:34 <Rubidium> Alberth: but... I was awake as well... replacing the tires on my bike 08:30:41 <Rubidium> (without the proper tools) 08:30:46 <andythenorth> use spoons 08:31:00 <andythenorth> currently newgrf has absolute control over prod_level 08:31:10 <Alberth> oh, and at work already. Welcome then as well Rubidium 08:31:19 <andythenorth> frosch123 proposes that newgrf does not have absolute control over prod_level 08:32:29 <frosch123> andythenorth: changing production should be no problem 08:32:34 <frosch123> overruling closure might be 08:37:08 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-118-10.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 08:40:27 <andythenorth> ok so on this proposal newgrf can only suggest prod_level 08:41:17 <andythenorth> now a GS can trivially break something like (current) FIRS supplies 08:41:27 <andythenorth> so we get whining from newgrf authors 08:42:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i still don't see the problem 08:42:04 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6A7C7.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 08:42:23 <andythenorth> it's a change to newgrf spec 08:42:25 <andythenorth> is all 08:42:54 <andythenorth> seems to be following case 08:43:01 <andythenorth> - I propose change to newgrf spec 08:43:06 <andythenorth> - reply: don't change newgrf spec 08:43:13 <andythenorth> - instead do xyz 08:43:18 <andythenorth> - xyz changes newgrf spec 08:44:06 <Eddi|zuHause> no, what i meant was: "i do not see the situation that causes the need for any change" 08:44:51 <andythenorth> ah ok 08:44:51 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@88.130.169.101] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:45:17 <andythenorth> so fundamental issue: do you think openttd / GS should be able to control production level of primary industries? 08:46:20 <andythenorth> control / influence /s 08:46:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd say "no" 08:46:56 <Eddi|zuHause> and then there comes someone along muttering "production cheat" and stuff 08:46:58 <andythenorth> ok :) 08:47:07 <andythenorth> so for 'no', there is no problem :) 08:47:50 <Eddi|zuHause> what happens inside an industry is clearly a newgrf task 08:48:31 <andythenorth> I see gameplay benefits in being able to influence amount of produced cargo via openttd or GS 08:48:50 <andythenorth> e.g. recessions, economic changes etc 08:49:00 <andythenorth> or unlocking stages of a challenge 08:49:24 <andythenorth> "You have completed stage 1, coal production increases across the map" 08:49:26 <andythenorth> etc 08:50:57 <Eddi|zuHause> ok, but then again, what is the problem with that? 08:51:35 <andythenorth> with doing that? 08:51:40 <andythenorth> can't be done currently 08:52:03 <Eddi|zuHause> the newgrf specs never said that cbXY was the only way that values could change 08:52:31 <Eddi|zuHause> and it also never said that the values would be the same the next time the cb is run 08:52:33 <andythenorth> that's one interpretation yes 08:52:39 <andythenorth> I don't read it that way 08:52:43 <andythenorth> I don't think other authors would either 08:52:56 <Eddi|zuHause> so whoever sets the value last, "wins" 08:53:05 <andythenorth> I don't have a strong opinion on it, but I think it's a spec change 08:53:22 <andythenorth> it breaks pretty nearly every known industry set afaik 08:53:55 <andythenorth> based on current test patch, FIRS will probably be changed to handle it nicely though 08:54:03 <andythenorth> which is nice for me and FIRS authors :P 08:54:13 <Eddi|zuHause> what kind of "break"? 08:54:13 <andythenorth> less so for others? 08:54:38 <Eddi|zuHause> what currently happens during a recession? 08:54:45 <andythenorth> depends on newgrf 08:54:53 * andythenorth wonders which other sets actually would break 08:54:58 <andythenorth> PBI I'd have to read src 08:55:05 <andythenorth> ECS too 08:55:10 <andythenorth> maybe it would be fine 08:55:34 <andythenorth> maybe just add a note to spec and all is well 08:56:12 <andythenorth> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Callbacks#Random_production_change_.2829.29 08:56:59 <andythenorth> just add "OpenTTD may over-ride the value you return, for more precise control use the production callback to generate produced cargo" 08:59:20 <andythenorth> solved? 09:02:13 <Eddi|zuHause> that is probably worded badly 09:02:30 <andythenorth> improve? 09:03:03 <Eddi|zuHause> recessions and stuff are an original feature, and the production cheat is also very old 09:04:37 <andythenorth> recessions don't touch the newgrf 09:04:50 <andythenorth> unless it explicitly allows them 09:05:01 <andythenorth> newgrf has absolute control except for production cheat 09:05:49 <andythenorth> * recessions don't touch the newgrf *if* it handles cb29 / cb35 *and* it doesn't return 04 09:05:56 <andythenorth> it's not a simple situation ;) 09:08:29 <andythenorth> suggestion: allow openttd / GS to over-ride prod_level, see what breaks over time, deal with it later? 09:09:33 <Terkhen> I'm against anything that includes "deal with it later" :P 09:09:53 <andythenorth> empiricism :D 09:09:59 <andythenorth> don't solve things that aren't proven to be a problem 09:10:47 <andythenorth> if TB had stopped to think through all problems GS might cause, we wouldn't have it :) 09:10:48 <Terkhen> indeed :) 09:10:54 <Terkhen> nah 09:11:04 <Terkhen> problems were thought :P 09:11:06 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: other approach: GS influencing production will run the random callback, or some new callback? 09:11:13 <Terkhen> except this one :D 09:11:45 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: then newgrf keeps its control, but GS gets some 09:12:13 <andythenorth> that's my proposal 09:12:16 <andythenorth> no new cb 09:12:33 <andythenorth> openttd can reject result newgrf returns to cb 29 / 35 09:12:40 <andythenorth> GS can influence openttfd 09:12:46 <andythenorth> it's a clean set of separations 09:12:50 <Eddi|zuHause> no, that is something very different 09:12:59 <Sacro> custom bridgeheads, go 09:13:01 <Eddi|zuHause> than what i just suggested 09:13:11 <andythenorth> oh you trigger cb29 09:13:19 <andythenorth> and newgrf handles that 09:13:42 <andythenorth> ? 09:13:59 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 09:14:13 <andythenorth> ok 09:14:21 <andythenorth> sounds reasonable 09:14:33 <Eddi|zuHause> var10 (or something) contains what the GS wants to do (double, halve, set to minimum, close, whatever) 09:14:36 <andythenorth> why does newgrf get to keep control? 09:15:11 <Eddi|zuHause> and newgrf can then agree with it, or not 09:15:17 <andythenorth> or rather, why does newgrf need that? 09:15:36 <Eddi|zuHause> _someone_ needs to have the final word 09:16:05 <Eddi|zuHause> and i think this way around is cleaner/needs fewer changes 09:17:34 <andythenorth> newgrf already has complete control anyway via production cb 09:17:43 <andythenorth> currently it has too many ways to do production imho 09:17:47 <andythenorth> more than is necessary 09:18:01 <andythenorth> it makes everything harder 09:18:16 <Eddi|zuHause> but you cannot remove any controls 09:18:35 <Eddi|zuHause> except by moving to GRFv9 and invalidating all old GRFs 09:18:52 <andythenorth> that's fine 09:20:29 <Eddi|zuHause> that means ALL grfs, no matter whether they provide industries or not 09:20:59 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 09:23:12 <andythenorth> interesting 09:23:19 <andythenorth> I had missed that implication 09:23:29 <andythenorth> when we moved to v8, old grfs continued working 09:26:00 <andythenorth> hmm 09:26:10 <andythenorth> so maybe we should not allow GS to control industry production at all 09:26:17 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, because we kept everything in place for grf<8 09:26:55 <andythenorth> it's quite frustrating being bound to this broken idea that industry newgrfs can provide most of the economy 09:27:00 <Eddi|zuHause> some callbacks were removed in favour of cb36, but all these callbacks were kept as legacy code 09:28:00 * andythenorth tries to figure out a route :| 09:28:52 <andythenorth> player advanced setting? "Industry production changes: newgrf | GS" 09:29:16 <Eddi|zuHause> now you're getting silly :) 09:29:22 <andythenorth> a new action 0 prop for newgrf? "Permit prod_level to be change" 09:29:47 <andythenorth> trying to think of simple, nice ways around this :) 09:29:47 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, g2g 09:29:55 <andythenorth> k 09:29:57 <andythenorth> ta 09:37:19 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 09:45:17 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1A64E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 09:59:30 *** keoz [~keikoz@142.90.76.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #openttd 10:04:45 <planetmaker> http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html very nice :-) 10:05:03 <planetmaker> to boldly go where no man has gone before ;-) 10:09:16 <Rubidium> but it isn't 'there' yet, right? 10:14:53 *** Snail [~jacopocol@cpe-68-175-24-89.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 10:15:28 <planetmaker> dunno. As I understand it, it's in the transition region. Neither here nor there. 10:16:08 <Rubidium> so if Voyager I is the farthest, what probe is second farthest 10:17:20 <frosch123> in any case, there has still been no man :) 10:17:51 <frosch123> and i am happy for that one 10:26:04 *** Elukka [Elukka@a91-152-213-89.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd 10:34:07 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:35:58 <planetmaker> Rubidium, the 2nd furthest alive spacecraft is... surprise, Voyager2 ;-) 10:41:42 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has joined #openttd 10:43:04 *** roadt [~roadt@223.240.111.230] has joined #openttd 10:55:50 *** Frankr [~chatzilla@cpc4-pres13-2-0-cust231.pres.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 11:00:30 *** Snail [~jacopocol@cpe-68-175-24-89.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Snail] 11:03:07 *** argoneus [~argoneus@ip-78-102-118-47.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 11:29:44 *** Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 11:30:30 *** KenjiE20 [kenjie20@supporter.blinkenshell.org] has joined #openttd 11:30:43 <Rubidium> planetmaker: then when did it pass Pioneer 10 11:31:54 <Rubidium> As of July 25, 2012, Voyager 2 is traveling at 15.447 km/s relative to the Sun, and currently at a distance of about 99.13 astronomical units 11:32:17 <Rubidium> october 2009: Projections indicate that Pioneer 10 reached 100 AU 11:33:36 <Rubidium> Feb 8 2012: Its distance from the Sun is about 105.197 (Pioneer 10) 11:34:05 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:34:36 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has joined #openttd 11:36:19 <Rubidium> Feb 8 2012 Voyager 1: 119.70479 astronomical units from the Sun 11:56:25 <planetmaker> Rubidium, communication with Pioneer 10 was lost 10 years ago. 11:56:34 <planetmaker> "The final, very weak signal from Pioneer 10 was received on January 23, 2003 when it was 12 billion-kilometers (80 AU) from Earth" 11:57:14 <TrueBrain> clearly no Duracell batteries 11:58:08 <planetmaker> :-) or luckily? 11:59:32 <planetmaker> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_for_Nuclear_Auxiliary_Power :D 12:07:34 <Rubidium> planetmaker: so what, it's remains man made 12:08:50 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@ip212-238-77-243.hotspotsvankpn.com] has joined #openttd 12:10:09 *** Pixa [~pixa@79-68-107-109.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd 12:11:17 *** Frankr [~chatzilla@cpc4-pres13-2-0-cust231.pres.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:14:03 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r24513 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 4 dirs): -Add: [Script] ScriptIndustryType::IsProcessingIndustry. 12:15:28 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@79-68-105-135.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:15:59 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@85.210.76.148] has joined #openttd 12:18:08 <Elukka> one of these days we're gonna have to start launching proper nuclear reactors 12:18:13 <Elukka> if we ever want to do anything significant in space 12:20:11 <frosch123> "significant in space" is an interesting term 12:20:29 <frosch123> is a supernove something significant? 12:21:15 *** Pixa [~pixa@79-68-107-109.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:22:21 <Rubidium> no, those are generally only tiny and insignificant for us 12:24:19 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@ip212-238-77-243.hotspotsvankpn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:26:59 *** keoz [~keikoz@142.90.76.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: keoz] 12:34:52 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 12:40:04 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 12:45:04 * andythenorth needs a nap 12:49:42 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@5070A0D5.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has joined #openttd 12:51:07 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-054-033.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [] 13:05:16 <Elukka> significant as in significant human activity 13:17:41 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d173-183-158-32.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: Rhamphoryncus] 13:36:51 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 13:43:08 *** cypher [~Miranda@ip-213-220-193-208.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 13:53:50 *** Frankr [~chatzilla@cpc4-pres13-2-0-cust231.pres.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 14:08:46 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 14:11:13 *** Snail [~jacopocol@cpe-68-175-24-89.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 14:16:47 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:44:02 *** FlyingFoXy [~quassel@sanktwendel.weh.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:55:40 *** Snail [~jacopocol@cpe-68-175-24-89.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Snail] 14:56:24 *** Guilux [~Guilux@82.239.232.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:02:04 <Zuu> Hmm, so currently there are company specific goals and global goals. They are stored in the same structure with company_id set to a special value for global goals. In this storage structure its non-trivial to allow global goals to store progress for all 14 companies, while the company goals only need to store one progres text. 15:02:31 <Zuu> Furthermore, I start to wonder if it makes sense to have a global goal with company specific progress trackning. 15:02:54 <Zuu> Isn't global goals, goals that all companies should cooperate on? 15:03:53 <frosch123> for nocargoal it's a goal which every company tries to achieve 15:03:57 <Zuu> If they compeete on the goal, just duplicate the goal for all companies as specific goals with the same text. Then you get capability to track progress and completeness state for all companies. 15:04:33 <frosch123> yeah maybe 15:05:05 <frosch123> what worried me about nocargoal was that the target date is the same for all companies, indedendent on when they start 15:05:34 <frosch123> so, yeah, maybe most goals should be company specific 15:05:41 <frosch123> and only cooperative goals should be global 15:05:43 <Zuu> I just think that we might overengineer things if global goals get a special storage type with an array for storing progress/completeness and the other goals are stored as individual goal (IDs) per each company. 15:06:03 <frosch123> yeah, you might be right :) 15:06:41 <Zuu> One reason why NoCarGoal use the global goals currently is to allow spectators to see the goal cargoes. 15:07:30 <Zuu> If all players/spectators could see all goals, the global goals are not so important anymore. 15:09:37 *** Guilux [~Guilux@chenapan.net] has joined #openttd 15:13:35 <Alberth> Zuu: where to find 'AILibrary' needed by (game script) Superlib-25 ? 15:14:03 <Zuu> Why would a game script need AILibrary? 15:14:11 <Zuu> You can get SuperLib for NoGo from bananas. 15:14:29 <Zuu> http://bananas.openttd.org/en/gslibrary/ 15:14:34 <Alberth> I have superlib-25, but no AILibrary 15:15:21 <Zuu> it will need RPF 4 for nogo, but what is the error message? 15:15:27 <frosch123> i guess it should say game script lbrary 15:16:14 <Alberth> frosch123: it should omho, otherwise Superlib is not findable 15:16:59 <Alberth> Zuu: I looked for "Superlib" version 25, and I ended up with an AI one, apparently 15:17:12 <frosch123> you need superlib for nogo 15:17:29 <frosch123> http://bananas.openttd.org/en/gslibrary/ 15:18:20 <Alberth> yeah, I figured as much, but thanks :) 15:18:52 <Alberth> Zuu: imho it wouldl REALLY help if you give different a different name 15:18:54 <frosch123> i cannot find the error message in the source you are refering to 15:20:02 <Alberth> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1701/ <-- I get this a few times at the console 15:20:31 <Zuu> Alberth: What should I give a different name? 15:20:38 <frosch123> oh, you installed an ai library into the gs lib directory 15:21:01 <frosch123> and ottd fails to distinguish them :) 15:21:35 <Zuu> Or you refer to the fact that AI and NoGo version use the same short name? 15:21:40 <frosch123> the library derives its main class from AIlibrary, which is not present when ottd loads a gs lib 15:22:46 <Zuu> I'll take a look in my conversion script and see if it needs an adjustment there. Though I never had any problem with that. But it could be that OpenTTD is just kind and accept it even if its not correct. 15:23:08 <frosch123> Zuu: it's no problem with your lib 15:23:11 <Alberth> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1702/ <-- this is what you get when running silicon valley without superlib 15:23:28 <frosch123> just ottd tries to load the library.nut which uses AILibrary instead of GSLibrary 15:23:35 <Alberth> how am i to know i need FOO_for_NoGo ?? 15:23:47 <frosch123> ottd just has no way to distinguish ai from gs libs, except by printing that error 15:24:17 <frosch123> Alberth: AIlibrary is no external library 15:24:20 <frosch123> it's ottd itself 15:24:39 <frosch123> just that ottd does not provide this class for gs 15:25:00 <Zuu> Alberth: By downloading via bananas or investigate in what dependencies a gs/ai have. 15:25:40 <Zuu> I try to include the dependency info in text for my AIs/GSs for those who try to download manually but generally recommend people to use bananas as that removes all that hassle. 15:25:41 <Alberth> util.superlib seems clear enough to me 15:25:58 <Alberth> Zuu: yep, except my bananas is down :p 15:26:22 <Alberth> now if you use "whateverlib", I would have found the right thing 15:26:31 <Zuu> In your case you can also untar the AI/GS and look in main.nut and within the 50 first lines or so see which depnedencies there are. 15:26:49 <Zuu> However, that is not something I would suggest to the average player :-p 15:27:16 <Alberth> import("util.superlib", "SuperLib", 25); <-- that? 15:27:21 <Zuu> Yep 15:27:34 <Alberth> it still says "Superlib" not SuperLib_for_nogo 15:28:35 <Alberth> so I am to know that by magic or so? 15:28:52 <Zuu> I guess it could be more clear. But from my point of view, I found it self explaining that a GS use the GS version of a library and not the AI version. 15:29:40 <frosch123> rename the classic superlib to superlib for noai :) 15:29:48 <Alberth> +1 15:29:48 <Zuu> I generally don't suggest that a user need to look into main.nut to find this out. 15:30:09 <Alberth> it's even useless, the info is not even there 15:31:36 <Zuu> I see your point. However, I think the way I though was that the "for NoGo" part is not really part of the name but something that explains the target/platform for the library. 15:35:09 <Alberth> is there a pathfinder.road for nogo too? 15:36:04 <frosch123> it's listed on bananas at least 15:36:10 <frosch123> generally no ai lib fors gor gs 15:36:17 <Alberth> thanks 15:36:26 <frosch123> *no ai lib works for gs 15:36:34 <frosch123> :s 15:37:55 <Zuu> Indeed, as all calls to the API are prefixed by AI for AIs and GS for GSs, so releasing a universal library is non-easy. 15:38:37 <Alberth> it has no _for_nogo extension, it seems 15:39:45 <Alberth> which is going to be fun to have together :) 15:39:57 <Zuu> Neither does any of the other ports that came after my NoGo port. 15:41:03 <Zuu> So if you want consistency it is rather that the SuperLib port should be renamed which makse more sense now given that it now have almost all functionallity of the AI version. 15:41:23 <Zuu> At the beginning the NoGo version was limited and did only support a subset of what the AI version could do. 15:42:31 <Zuu> However when it was released it was an experimental test to see how much part of it that was possible to transfer into the new GS area. 15:43:06 <Alberth> oh, that's fine, my only problem is that naming conventions are currently confusing 15:55:08 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-054-033.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 16:14:05 <Zuu> Alberth: If "SuperLib for NoGo" would have been named just "SuperLib" on bananas, would you have found it easier then? 16:19:45 <Zuu> frosch123: Is your proposal still to add a new top-level button for Goals? Or to have a "goal" item in the company legue menu? Or to ... ? 16:20:30 <frosch123> what number of nogo windows are on the list to add? 16:20:42 <frosch123> i remember replacnig the league and score window 16:21:21 <frosch123> and if the score window would remain with tabs, the goals should as well maybe 16:21:23 <Zuu> We had a discussion a week ago or so to allow GSs to create additional detail windows in case the goal list is not enough. 16:23:13 <Zuu> But I also see your point that the GUI generally have these list at top level menus with all companies there. 16:23:57 <Zuu> And one way is to do like that and then on the company specific goal window in future add a "details" button or similar if we add a such capability. 16:24:44 <frosch123> anyway, width is not really a problem 16:24:47 <frosch123> the toolbar scales 16:24:59 <frosch123> and there were also buttons added in the past 16:25:31 <Zuu> Ok, I had the suspection that it might be a problem, but was not sure. That is why I asked you :-) 16:26:32 *** Goulp [~Muxy@main.goulp.net] has joined #openttd 16:26:45 *** Goulp [~Muxy@main.goulp.net] has quit [] 16:27:03 <Zuu> But then your proposal to have a new goal button that open up a window for the current company (with drop down to see the window for other companies) with the goals may be good. 16:27:19 <Zuu> Any details would then be opened from there. 16:27:39 <Zuu> We get a clear goal button then in the GUI that isn't hidden away from players. 16:28:05 <Zuu> If the button is invisible if there are no goals, that is even more a clear indication that the game have or have not goals 16:29:13 <frosch123> maybe: currently there is the league menu, with league and score 16:29:28 <frosch123> if we remove both of them if a gs is present 16:29:33 *** Muxy [~Muxy@main.goulp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:29:39 <frosch123> we can add a gs league, and one item per company for the goals 16:29:45 <frosch123> then it would work like the company button 16:30:02 <frosch123> (one item per company, plus separate client list and spectate) 16:30:58 <Zuu> For GSs that provide game changes/goals it make sense to replace the default company league table with a rating from the GS. 16:32:03 *** Muxy [~Muxy@main.goulp.net] has joined #openttd 16:32:07 <Zuu> But maybe it is easiest to code it so that if any GS is loaded, the default company league is disabled and leave it up to GSs to decide if they want to implement a replacement or not. (but if they don't there is no league at all) 16:33:05 <Zuu> Btw, some of my previous ideas (1-2 week ago) are written down here: http://wiki.openttd.org/GS_Ideas 16:35:20 <Zuu> So to update that one, the fist point for Goal Window would change to "Add a new main toolbar button which opens up company specific goal windows in the same way as eg. the economy window works" 16:47:46 *** Ryton- [~Ryton-@94-226-98-24.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 16:47:54 *** Ryton- is now known as Ryton 16:48:41 <Ryton> 120 users in the channel, wow! 16:48:53 <Zuu> 120 irc clients connected 16:48:54 <frosch123> nah, more like 4 16:48:57 <frosch123> and 166 idlers 16:49:02 <frosch123> *116 16:50:20 <Ryton> hehe. sounds like a duth politic figure: i can still count: 74 16:50:57 <Ryton> +32 is 116. (or the like;-) 16:52:24 <Alberth> Zuu: not really, http://bananas.openttd.org/en/gslibrary/ is a magic url, it seems 16:52:39 <Alberth> there is no "game library" in the list above 16:53:40 <Alberth> imho different libraries should be clearly distinguishable by name 16:54:16 <frosch123> let's blame TrueBrain for both :p 16:55:38 <Alberth> that may help in a few of the above cases :) 16:56:41 <Zuu> Alberth: But if it is the same library, just with all "\bAI" replaced by "GS", does that varant a different name of the library? 16:58:16 <Alberth> I have to use the right one otherwise it fails. That makes it a different library in my book. 16:58:37 <Alberth> but GameSuperLib and AISuperLib would be fine imho 16:58:38 <frosch123> it's different like 64bit and 32bit 16:58:46 <frosch123> problem is just bananas 16:59:32 <Zuu> As frosch123 said, I see it more like eg. a linux or windows build of the same library. 17:00:19 <Zuu> For Pathfinder.Road all code in the repository is for the AI target. Then the Makefile contains a sed command to produce the GS version of the library. 17:00:44 <Alberth> Zuu: pathfinder is even more fun; the filename is exactly the same 17:00:47 <frosch123> you have to put all 32bit libraries into /usr/lib, and all 64bit into /usr/lib64 17:00:56 <Alberth> from the filename, there is no way to decide what it actually is 17:01:07 <frosch123> if you switch them up, stuff fails to load and prints weird errors 17:01:10 <frosch123> like, invalid elf format 17:01:20 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1A64E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:01:28 <frosch123> though you don't like elves 17:01:30 <Zuu> Alberth: same with Queue.BinaryHeap, Graph.AyStar and Queue.FibonacciHeep 17:01:49 <Zuu> which were ported before Pathfinder.Road :-) 17:01:50 <Alberth> sure, but they are labeled .x64_86 or ..x68 or so 17:02:01 <frosch123> Alberth: if bananas would show them on one page, with a "GS" and an "AI" download link next to each other, all would be fine :) 17:02:17 <frosch123> Alberth: the library itself isn't 17:02:20 <frosch123> only the package 17:02:25 <Alberth> Zuu: without automatic download, nobody will get the right version, ever 17:02:39 <Alberth> frosch123: here the package is also the same 17:02:52 <Zuu> Which is why I tend to suggest to people to use bananas 17:03:27 <Alberth> and that's good, but does that mean it has to be impossible to do it manually? 17:03:32 <Zuu> Another reason is that there is no way to get old versions of a library by downloading from the web frontend. 17:03:54 <Zuu> If I would release version 26 now, you would be unable to get version 25 from the bananas website. 17:04:22 <Alberth> I think it was already established the bananas site needs to be changed 17:06:37 <Zuu> Let say like this. From AI/GS author point of view, it makes sense that the import statement is exactly the same for both AI and GS. 17:07:12 <Zuu> If that were not the case, the NoGo translator for SuperLib would need to find the import statement for Pathfinder.Road and change that one when producing the NoGo version of SuperLib. 17:07:26 <Zuu> So there are reasons why it is like it is. 17:07:55 <Zuu> What you say is that there are also reasons from user perspective to make it more complicated (for AI/GS authors), to make downloading the right lib easier. 17:08:42 <Alberth> how does import xgs versus import xai make it more difficult? 17:08:47 *** Snail [~jacopocol@cpe-68-175-24-89.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 17:09:29 <Zuu> "import x" needs no change at all 17:09:38 <Alberth> use a REPLACEME prefix in the source, and do a s/REPLACEME/AI/ or s/REPLACEME/GS/ 17:10:08 <Zuu> All needed currently is "s/\bAI/GS/" to port from AI to GS with respect of API calls 17:10:26 <Alberth> I can't copy squirrel code anyway, so what's the point to keep import x ? 17:11:02 <Zuu> What do you mean by not being able to copy squirrel code? 17:11:49 <Zuu> So far I have had the idea that manual downloading is too complicated for most users, especially with regard of old libraries. So I have seen that as a lost case and not really even though about that issue with respect of naming. 17:12:02 <Alberth> you consider it import to keep "import x", but I don't see that, I need to change my code everywhere when I move between AI and GS, so what is different about x ??? 17:12:42 <Alberth> Zuu: ok, fair enough, just say then that superlib cannot be downloaded manually or from the forum 17:12:43 <Zuu> The only change needed when going from AI to GS is to change "AI" to "GS" at the beginning of all words. That is what s/\bAI/GS/ does. 17:13:10 <Alberth> import AIx will then also change 17:13:17 <Zuu> Yep 17:13:51 <Zuu> It would be possible to rename all libraries to include AI or GS at the front and have it easily scriptable. 17:14:07 <frosch123> don't try to fix the wrong problems :) 17:14:07 * Alberth fails to see it completely now 17:14:13 <frosch123> the only issue is the bananas web frontend 17:14:24 <Zuu> But there are multiple library authors, and I can't rename all libraries. 17:14:58 <Zuu> I expect that I additionally need to get the database rights and rename the bananas entries in the dB as IIRC that is not possible in the frontend. 17:15:35 *** chester_ [~chester@95-25-200-43.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 17:16:06 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:2c3d:a6e6:7077:e9a7] has joined #openttd 17:16:09 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 17:16:19 <Zuu> Alberth: I see your point, and if we would start from scratch, it could make sense to do like your proposal. But then that would have to be though of when the first AI library was created some 4 years ago or so. 17:16:21 <Alberth> frosch123: the path finder tar is called Pathfinder.Road-4.tar" target="_blank">Pathfinder.Road-4.tar both in AI and in GS. Donwload both and good luck in finding out which one is Pathfinder.Road-4.tar" target="_blank">Pathfinder.Road-4.tar and Pathfinder.Road-4(1).tar 17:16:52 *** Ryton [~Ryton-@94-226-98-24.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:16:59 <Alberth> Zuu: ??? 17:17:10 <Alberth> start a new library with a new name???? 17:17:13 <Alberth> problem solved 17:17:20 <frosch123> that won't change if you add a newgrf called "Pathfinder Road" :) 17:17:26 <frosch123> or a scenario 17:17:38 <frosch123> bananas does not include the name into the filename 17:17:48 <frosch123> s/name/type/ 17:17:56 <Zuu> I guess what we could do is to change bananas to add the content type into the tar name. That will not break any dependencies but help users who download manually. 17:18:07 <Alberth> frosch123: so give them a unique name??? 17:18:36 <Zuu> eg <name>-<version>-<type>.tar 17:18:50 <Alberth> Zuu: keep the old one around, nothing breaks. Make a new one, people using it will update the import one time. 17:23:23 <Zuu> So you propose that I should duplicate 14 libraries under a different name? 17:23:30 <frosch123> you cannot :p 17:23:46 <frosch123> you cannot have them with duplicate unique ids 17:23:49 <Zuu> Additionally there are 6 libraries which I have no rights to do it. 17:23:54 <frosch123> you would have to hack the database to change all names 17:24:36 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 17:24:49 <frosch123> i guess the best bet is still to make bananas include the type itself 17:25:25 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 17:26:16 <Zuu> that would also make the two "Beginner tutorial" possible to distinguish :-) 17:30:29 *** roadt [~roadt@223.240.111.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:31:20 <Rubidium> adding the type to the file name is not as trivial as it might sound 17:31:59 <Rubidium> the file name is generated during upload and checked for uniqueness. It is then stored in the database and everything uses that name to go back from the numbered files in the disk on the server 17:32:06 <Rubidium> that includes OpenTTD 17:33:21 <Rubidium> since the name may be 31 bytes and the version 15 bytes, you end up with a filename of 47 (name + version + separator). This is exactly the size of the variable containing the file name in OpenTTD 17:33:57 <Rubidium> adding more to the file name means retroactively changing that filename length constant in already released OpenTTDs 17:34:31 <Zuu> That does indeed sound a bit hard to do :-) 17:36:26 <Rubidium> one *might* choose to have a different file name for files served by the web server, but I'm not sure whether the http download uses the filename variable for resolving that location. If it doesn't, then that might be an avenue to take. Otherwise you're probably royally screwed 17:36:46 <Rubidium> (http download from within OpenTTD) 17:45:11 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r24514 /trunk/src/lang/welsh.txt: 17:45:11 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:45:11 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: welsh - 3 changes by kazzie 17:57:10 *** Knogle [knogle@1604ds5-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:58:02 *** Knogle [knogle@1604ds5-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #openttd 18:12:58 *** sla_ro|vista [slaco@78.96.213.97] has joined #openttd 18:16:28 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@78.96.213.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:17:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a distinct lack of doctor who... 18:17:56 <Supercheese> I hear he's on first. ;) 18:18:16 <Supercheese> (With the esteemed Dr. What on second) 18:18:52 * Supercheese wonders if anyone will get that joke 18:18:58 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 18:20:04 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@5070A0D5.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:24:24 <andythenorth> bonsoir 18:24:31 <Rubidium> lack of doctor who? 18:24:47 <Rubidium> did you miss the last like 6 episodes? 18:25:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm missing todays episode, mostly 18:25:45 * Rubidium almost as well 18:25:56 <Rubidium> but apparantly it starts in 10 minutes 18:26:07 *** Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:29:49 <Rubidium> so... Eddi|zuHause, thanks for reminding me ;) 18:39:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: well there was an episode already last week 18:39:39 <andythenorth> Silicon Valley game? 18:45:13 <frosch123> what firs? 18:45:20 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has left #openttd [] 18:45:49 <frosch123> what players? :) 18:46:02 <frosch123> planetmaker: Zuu: Alberth: Terkhen: ? 18:46:14 <frosch123> (leaving out rb watching dw :p ) 18:46:37 <Alberth> rb is watching tracks :) 18:50:35 <frosch123> is building materials a good choice? 18:50:37 <Alberth> @calc 8*500 18:50:37 <DorpsGek> Alberth: 4000 18:51:37 <Alberth> ugh :) 18:53:45 *** Kitty [freemadi@tao.quixotic.eu] has joined #openttd 18:53:48 <Kitty> Hello there. 18:54:02 <Alberth> hi 18:54:24 <Kitty> I am wondering if anyone can provide some guidance. I am struggling to get profitable industries other than oil rig/oil well/oil refinery, or coal mine/powerstation 18:54:27 <Kitty> ? 18:56:23 <Alberth> always have a train loading 18:56:42 <Eddi|zuHause> turn off inflation 18:56:49 <Alberth> try to move cargo rapidly 18:56:50 <Kitty> is it better to have lots of shorter trains visiting frequently, or a big train filling rarely ? 18:56:58 <Alberth> don't build long trains 18:57:00 <Kitty> Eddi|zuHause: allready did that 18:57:18 <Eddi|zuHause> the trains should not be too long, because the waiting time will lower your income 18:57:30 <Kitty> how long is a good length? 4 cars? 6 ? 18:57:40 <Eddi|zuHause> try to have the train ready when the next train comes back 18:58:03 <Eddi|zuHause> "good" length heavily depends on the production rate 18:58:25 <Eddi|zuHause> the longest i once had was 15 tiles 18:58:44 <frosch123> a normal train is 4 to 7 tiles 18:58:57 <Kitty> I normally use 5 tiles for most of my train s 18:59:03 <frosch123> a train should not take longer than a month to load 18:59:04 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-054-033.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [] 18:59:14 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-054-033.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 18:59:29 <Eddi|zuHause> i have 2 tiles for really low production 18:59:50 <Alberth> also depends on the engine, early in the game you want shorter trains due to limited poer of the engines 18:59:56 <Alberth> *power 18:59:57 <andythenorth> frosch123: building materials is quite interesting 18:59:58 *** Snail [~jacopocol@cpe-68-175-24-89.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Snail] 19:00:22 <Kitty> interesting 19:02:08 *** APTX_ [APTX@2001:470:1f0b:1a9d:240:63ff:fefb:5994] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:03:52 <Kitty> It's been ages since I played, and the display chain thing is a really nice new feature 19:04:24 <Alberth> it needs improvement :) 19:04:34 <andythenorth> what's the url to the compile farm? 19:04:38 <andythenorth> I need an older nightly 19:05:03 <Alberth> main page, at the top somewhere 19:06:06 * andythenorth can't see it 19:06:08 <frosch123> andythenorth: http://ftp.snt.utwente.nl/pub/games/openttd/binaries/nightlies/trunk/r24502/index.html 19:06:17 <andythenorth> awesome thanks 19:06:39 <frosch123> though might not be the best mirror for you 19:07:35 *** APTX [APTX@2001:470:1f0b:1a9d:240:63ff:fefb:5994] has joined #openttd 19:08:01 <Kitty> also, is ther an AI that can actually play ? 19:08:33 <Alberth> sure, download one from the ingame content 19:09:12 <Kitty> which ones actually work? I have choochoo trains or sum such, that builds some track, goes bank rupt, and then gets bought out by me... 19:10:09 <Alberth> http://wiki.openttd.org/Comparison_of_AIs 19:10:26 <Alberth> I don't know, I never bother about having an AI 19:13:58 <Kitty> hmm, that was a waste of 5 million. trying to build an oil rig... 19:15:08 <frosch123> Kitty: usually admiral, simpleai and nocab are good choices 19:17:18 <andythenorth> Zuu: Terkhen planetmaker Silicon Valley? 19:17:23 <andythenorth> we're on the nightly server 19:17:26 <andythenorth> V453000 ? 19:17:33 <andythenorth> Hirundo ? 19:17:42 <Zuu> Nice, I'll come in a minute. 19:21:30 *** Pixa [~pixa@79-68-110-117.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd 19:22:18 <Kitty> can anyone suggest good junction designs for 3 way junctions with 4 tracks ? 19:23:43 <Alberth> the wiki has a few, else look at openttdcoop.org 19:23:55 <Alberth> I have never build anything that complicated 19:26:14 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@85.210.76.148] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:28:46 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-118-10.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 19:28:55 *** kais58_ [~kais58@cpc2-cwma8-2-0-cust293.7-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:30:50 *** kais58 [~kais58@cpc2-cwma8-2-0-cust293.7-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:31:26 <Zuu> Kitty: I tend to build organically, and solve the problems as they come rather than ending up in a symetrical solution. 19:33:29 <Terkhen> andythenorth: I'll be away for the day 19:33:32 <Terkhen> see you tomorrow :) 19:34:16 <andythenorth> k 19:37:36 *** Alberth is now known as Guest6292 19:40:27 *** Guest6292 [~hat3@2001:980:272e:1:21a:92ff:fe55:fc8d] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:43:51 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd 19:46:10 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: but I saw last week's episode and Pond's life 20:06:55 *** Alberth [~hat3@2001:980:272e:1:21a:92ff:fe55:fc8d] has joined #openttd 20:06:58 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 20:47:38 *** kais58_ [~kais58@cpc2-cwma8-2-0-cust293.7-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:52:34 *** flaa [~flaa@188.141.45.124] has joined #openttd 20:56:48 *** Snail [~jacopocol@cpe-68-175-24-89.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 21:00:53 *** kais58 [~kais58@cpc2-cwma8-2-0-cust293.7-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 21:03:18 *** namad7 [~aaaaa@pool-173-71-180-190.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 21:04:34 *** Frankr [~chatzilla@cpc4-pres13-2-0-cust231.pres.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:07:26 *** Frankr [~chatzilla@cpc4-pres13-2-0-cust231.pres.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 21:09:17 *** namad7 [~aaaaa@pool-173-71-180-190.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 21:15:15 *** kais58 [~kais58@cpc2-cwma8-2-0-cust293.7-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:20:17 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@cybertinus.jkit.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:20:18 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@2001:828:405:30:86:96:177:42] has joined #openttd 21:22:49 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1A64E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 21:26:58 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@2001:828:405:30:86:96:177:42] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:27:09 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@cybertinus.jkit.nl] has joined #openttd 21:32:50 *** kais58 [~kais58@cpc2-cwma8-2-0-cust293.7-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 21:38:39 *** Snail [~jacopocol@cpe-68-175-24-89.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:40:50 *** cypher [~Miranda@ip-213-220-193-208.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 21:41:16 *** kais58_ [~kais58@cpc2-cwma8-2-0-cust293.7-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 21:43:09 *** kais58 [~kais58@cpc2-cwma8-2-0-cust293.7-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:00:19 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@cybertinus.jkit.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:00:20 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@cybertinus.jkit.nl] has joined #openttd 22:01:37 *** Alberth [~hat3@2001:980:272e:1:21a:92ff:fe55:fc8d] has left #openttd [] 22:10:30 <Wolf01> 'night all 22:10:34 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host218-143-dynamic.48-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 22:13:15 *** NataS [~Shep@00179a279bbd.click-network.com] has joined #openttd 22:14:35 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #openttd [] 22:14:47 *** Nat_aS [~Shep@00179a279bbd.click-network.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:17:38 *** flaa [~flaa@188.141.45.124] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:18:50 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fd277.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:20:38 *** flaa [~flaa@188.141.45.124] has joined #openttd 22:21:19 <Kylie> so my road coal trucks - looks like it is time for them to go. they are only making ,000 a year (24100 - 3630 - 10310 = ~ 10,000) while my trains thaat connect to almost the same coal stations are making 0,000 a year 22:21:25 *** keoz [~keikoz@142.90.76.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #openttd 22:32:47 *** sla_ro|vista [slaco@78.96.213.97] has quit [Quit: DANGER sla.ro is OFFLINE DANGER] 22:34:53 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 22:35:58 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:40:44 <Kitty> Did the thing to allow you to disable an airport make it into a mainstream release ? 22:41:14 <planetmaker> nope 22:44:09 <Supercheese> "Close airport" is in trunk... 22:44:27 <Kitty> what does that mean to a lay person ? 22:44:49 <Supercheese> As of the most recent nightly, the function "close airport" is available 22:44:58 <Supercheese> Meaning no planes will lane at that airport until reopened 22:45:02 <Supercheese> land* 22:46:03 <Supercheese> well, as of a while ago, but available in the most recent nightly 22:46:20 <planetmaker> Supercheese, oh, it is? ok :-) 22:46:30 <planetmaker> I guess I play too little with airports 22:46:43 <Supercheese> I'm running r24514 and it's there :) 22:46:51 <planetmaker> then it was one of the things from the last big assortment of small patches, which is also in 1.2 then 22:50:14 <FLHerne> Ah, finally :-) 22:50:34 <FLHerne> I never understood why that wasn't added two years ago :P 22:55:09 <Supercheese> Hm, seems the discussion of adding more frames to 4x zoom level is getting a bit out of hand... 22:56:08 <Supercheese> It would be better for animation purposes, but seems untenable from a code perspective 22:56:58 <planetmaker> some people don't take "no" as an answer. And accuse you of being arrogant when giving "no" as an answer. Really sad 22:57:05 <Supercheese> Alas... 22:59:55 <FLHerne> Well, it is a valid problem... 23:09:57 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d173-183-158-32.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 23:10:39 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:14:41 <planetmaker> FLHerne, yes, possibly it is. But that doesn't change the facts 23:15:21 <planetmaker> and the single sad fact is - again! - that personalities and animosities play the far bigger role than the real subject 23:16:26 *** Netsplit resistance.oftc.net <-> graviton.oftc.net quits: Rubidium, SmatZ, dotwaffle, +glx, tparker, @Belugas, Mek, lugo 23:17:06 <planetmaker> those people should select their own devs to develop the game for them which give them always pampered answers 23:18:03 *** Netsplit over, joins: SmatZ, +glx, dotwaffle, tparker, @Belugas, lugo, Mek, Rubidium 23:18:03 <planetmaker> or a "yes, of course we will. And then show a screenshot. Of a patch which might heavily modified make it into OpenTTD in 10 years". Similar to certain NewGRF devs which actually complain about these kind of answers which are just brief 23:19:30 <planetmaker> and I should also just shut up and go to bed. Good night 23:19:59 <FLHerne> Night 23:24:34 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has left #openttd [] 23:25:24 *** keoz [~keikoz@142.90.76.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: keoz] 23:27:09 *** kais58_ [~kais58@cpc2-cwma8-2-0-cust293.7-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:27:38 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1A64E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:29:06 <Kitty> is there an easy way to replace a group of trains ? 23:31:28 <planetmaker> http://wiki.openttd.org/Autoreplace 23:32:08 *** kais58 [~kais58@cpc2-cwma8-2-0-cust293.7-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 23:35:22 <Kitty> oh wow, that makes things easier 23:35:28 <Kitty> how long has that been in the feature list ? 23:35:37 *** chester_ [~chester@95-25-200-43.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:35:39 <Supercheese> Years 23:35:49 <Kitty> Wish I had known about it 23:36:09 <Supercheese> It is indeed an immensely helpful feature 23:39:31 *** kais58_ [~kais58@cpc2-cwma8-2-0-cust293.7-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 23:41:24 *** kais58 [~kais58@cpc2-cwma8-2-0-cust293.7-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:54:55 *** kais58_ [~kais58@cpc2-cwma8-2-0-cust293.7-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]