Log for #openttd on 15th December 2012:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours

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00:08:26  <drac_boy> mm
00:10:35  <drac_boy> frosch123 do you think the term 'boxcab' still applies even if its slanted nose ends or not quite so much anymore?
00:13:53  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: i haven't heard anything like "boxcab" in german rail terminology
00:15:00  <frosch123> the very early electric engines (1900) look like that
00:16:01  <drac_boy> hmm might be an american term as I was wondering
00:16:09  <drac_boy> boxcar + electric = boxcab
00:16:15  <frosch123> drac_boy: neither me nor eddi are native english
00:16:23  <frosch123> so i do not know any of those terms :p
00:16:32  <drac_boy> and in europe they call it covered wagon instead of boxcar so...guess that answers it
00:16:34  <frosch123> i type them into the search machine and look at the pictures :p
00:17:02  <drac_boy> still hmm I do have to wonder.. 'switcher' vs 'shunter'
00:17:14  <drac_boy> :P
00:19:15  <frosch123> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayerische_EP_2 <- like this one
00:19:16  <drac_boy> btw frosch123 if you didn't know... "caboose" was not as an universal term in usa as you may have thought it to be .. some railroads actually called them "brake car" or "conductor van" for as long as the company existed
00:19:32  <drac_boy> sounds a bit more england-ish than american-ish names if you ask me
00:19:50  <Eddi|zuHause> in germany a shunter may be called a "Kleinlok" while in switzerland it may be called "Traktor"
00:20:00  <drac_boy> of course I still have to wonder whoever came up with the strange name "crummy"
00:21:03  <drac_boy> eddi....tractor would make sense....they are classed as TM a lot of the times which I guess translates loosely into Tractor Motor or close ... they're just for localized works most of the times
00:22:04  <drac_boy> I know I've heard of certain ones being kept at a station all the times to shunt coaches between arriving and new-deperaturing trains
00:22:13  <Eddi|zuHause> in the swiss engine class scheme, "Tm" would mean "tractor with (diesel) motor" while "Te" would be "tractor with electric motor"
00:22:33  <drac_boy> ah....never heard of Te much .. didn't know that tidbit :)
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00:23:24  <Eddi|zuHause> larger engines are classified by speed limit (A/B/C/D) and traction type (e/m)
00:23:33  <drac_boy> also I know there was one particular tractor unit that was built as diesel-rack (forgot which line) type...it had absolutely no axle traction motor at all
00:23:42  <Eddi|zuHause> so you have "Ae" or "Be" or "Bm" etc.
00:24:01  <drac_boy> kinda interesting but I guess that for an all-rack line the cost saving in not needing axle powers probably made sense in swizterland
00:24:40  <drac_boy> it was 2-axle (aside to the rack axle in middle) as usual
00:25:02  <Eddi|zuHause> pure-rackrail lines are fairly rare, i suppose
00:25:15  <drac_boy> yeah .. there was only one single example of this locomotive built
00:25:38  <drac_boy> I think it was that famous tourist line with the historic rack steam locomotives .. but since I can't recall the names now its only wild guesses at this point
00:25:52  <Eddi|zuHause> usually you have normal lines with rackrail sections on the steeper slopes
00:27:22  <frosch123> night
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00:27:33  <drac_boy> true Eddi|zuHause
00:27:52  <Eddi|zuHause> steam engines are really rare in switzerland
00:28:19  <Eddi|zuHause> by WWII practically all lines were electrified
00:28:40  <drac_boy> heh well one line had quite a number of HG steam locomotives .. several still in full service today :)
00:28:50  <drac_boy> but mm yeah mainline steam weren't that much in first place
00:31:19  <Superuser> THE GAME STARTS AT 1950 FFS
00:32:23  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure what game you played, but the transport tycoon i played started in 1930
00:32:37  <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause mind you there was also that line crossing the france/swizterland mountains ... they didn't want to use racks but it was steep .. one man had the idea to make everything powered, even the flatcars too ... was rather interesting solution
00:32:41  <Eddi|zuHause> and since i found openttd i usually started in 1920
00:32:59  <drac_boy> eventually they found out there was still enough tractive to insert nonpowered wagons into the trains (eg 3 powered coaches with 1 unpowered one)
00:33:25  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: never heard of that before
00:33:43  <drac_boy> over the time the freight business declined .. by the time they ordered newer bogie rack emu units almost all of the old freight wagons had been scrapped except for the ones saved for track maintenance duty
00:34:40  <drac_boy> now the line still exists but its worked by ever newer 2-car articulated EMU units that also had one interesting feature...extra-deep vestibules ... probably had to do with avoiding pinching the sides on the sharp curves
00:35:24  <Eddi|zuHause> no idea what that means
00:35:52  <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause well if they had used normal vestibules the side would had crushed together .. so they had to space it farther apart
00:36:29  <drac_boy> let me see if I can't find the name of this unusual railroad
00:36:56  <Eddi|zuHause> still never heard the word "vestibule" before
00:37:08  <drac_boy> oh sorry that one...
00:37:20  <drac_boy> hmm well...that rubbery thing between each coach car? :)
00:38:57  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, good night
00:40:58  <drac_boy> mm anyway heres a photo of the early train from that railroad http://train-mont-blanc.fr/photos/089/089l.jpg
00:41:14  <drac_boy> believe it or not but that freight wagon actually has two traction motors under there :)
00:41:21  <drac_boy> goodnight Eddi|zuHause
00:42:57  <drac_boy> mm anyway if anyone else's around for a moment...just thinking of a quick grf coding question...can you have different steepness for different rail types or not so much yet?
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01:48:22  <drac_boy> hm...guess I can't figure out what to call these boxy locomotives -_-
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02:06:13  <drac_boy> ah well just going call it "boxy diesel locomotive" ... meh :p
02:06:21  <drac_boy> heh
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09:08:13  <Alberth> woep woep
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09:18:34  <Alberth> moin Wolf01
09:18:37  <Wolf01> hello
09:26:08  <Wolf01> http://www.bath.ac.uk/news/2012/12/11/pixel-die/ soon we'll see flash-game-quality movies, a great improvement indeed
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10:10:41  <andythenorth> 'head of livestock' instead of 'items of livestock' ?
10:13:37  <Alberth> randomly pick 'head' or 'tail' :)
10:14:20  <Alberth> probably people say "X cows" instead of "X livestock"
10:15:06  <Prof_Frink> Capacity: 3 cows, 2 sheep and a chicken.
10:15:42  <Alberth> btw, did you see that I reported two sugar issues?
10:16:52  <andythenorth> oh :P
10:16:56  <andythenorth> ha ha
10:16:57  <andythenorth> ok
10:17:28  <andythenorth> Alberth: you're playing a temperate map?
10:17:38  <Alberth> yes
10:17:39  <andythenorth> ok
10:17:49  <andythenorth> I have some broken conditional code in that case
10:18:01  <andythenorth> sugar beet in temperate / arctic; sugar cane in tropic
10:18:39  <Alberth> and the most sweet climate has no sugar ;)
10:19:52  <andythenorth> untested :P
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10:31:48  <andythenorth> hmm
10:31:53  <andythenorth> no conditional code :P
10:31:56  <andythenorth> oops
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10:39:58  <chester_> hi there, could anyone compile with 2 functions in misc_gui.cpp turned off?
10:41:21  <Eddi|zuHause> anyone could do that...
10:41:53  <chester_> could you? ShowCostOrIncomeAnimation and ShowFeederIncomeAnimation, i want to check how much do they load cpu
10:42:01  <chester_> winXP 32
10:42:20  <Eddi|zuHause> no, i can't do that
10:42:38  <Eddi|zuHause> (which i could have told you immediately if you'd obeyed the topic)
10:43:32  <chester_> ah dont ask to ask
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10:45:20  <andythenorth> why not compile?  :)
10:45:21  <chester_> i want 1.2.3 stable compiled for winXP 32 with ShowCostOrIncomeAnimation and ShowFeederIncomeAnimation in misc_gui.cpp do nothing
10:45:23  <andythenorth> it's easy
10:45:43  <chester_> i have to dl vs, i dont have it
10:46:06  <andythenorth> give a man a fish....feed him for a day
10:46:15  <andythenorth> teach him to catch fish....feed him forever
10:46:17  <andythenorth> etc :P
10:46:35  <chester_> i only want to live for 1 day and die
10:48:13  <chester_> ok im gonna download, if someone wish to compile answer
10:48:49  <chester_> btw wich version of vs express should i use?
10:51:17  <Eddi|zuHause> easiest would be one mentioned in the wiki
10:51:38  <NGC3982> http://i.imgur.com/HIRZn.png
10:52:09  <NGC3982> I fail to see why the train to the right doesn't go further
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10:52:57  <chester_> i c, either 2k5 or 2k8 will be ok
10:53:19  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: what do you mean "further"?
10:53:36  <chester_> NGC, this loading train keeps crossing occupied
10:54:08  <chester_> btw how did it enter there
10:54:26  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: place a signal on the exit of the platform
10:54:45  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: or turn that train occupying the platform around
10:54:56  <chester_> unnesesary, since platforms have 2way pbs embedded
10:55:13  <Eddi|zuHause> chester_: no, they don't
10:55:29  <NGC3982> Turning the train solved it
10:55:50  <NGC3982> I was unaware that the trains direction on the platform was relevant.
10:56:11  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: only if you omit the signals
10:56:38  <NGC3982> Right before the screenshot, i had one way PBS used on both entry and exit.
10:56:39  <NGC3982> Ok
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10:57:12  <chester_> NGC how did that train enter the platform?
10:57:18  <Eddi|zuHause> chester_: the thing that you observe is that a train turning around at the end of line only starts up if it can reserve a path. there is no platform involved there
10:57:47  <Alberth> NGC3982: turn on the 'show reserved tracks' to see what happens
10:57:50  <NGC3982> chester_: It drove it, like any other train. Though, i guess i fiddled around with it yesterday, making it turn.
10:57:53  <NGC3982> Alberth: Ok.
10:58:13  <NGC3982> Hm, i don't know why i turned that off. I like to use that feature 24/7.
10:58:35  <Alberth> you're not sleeping? :)
10:59:02  <Eddi|zuHause> sleep is overrated :p
10:59:14  <NGC3982> Nope, we Swedes are nocturnal.
10:59:27  <chester_> Eddi: if i'll remove the platform completely, will the train stay and wait?
10:59:37  <Alberth> hmm, so I was born in the wrong country it seems :)
11:00:39  <NGC3982> Hehe.
11:01:50  <Eddi|zuHause> chester_: yes
11:02:07  <Eddi|zuHause> chester_: except it would be more tricky to get the train there
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11:11:35  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: You have a fantastic word for Thursday.
11:12:14  <Eddi|zuHause> what do you mean?
11:12:26  <NGC3982> Thunderday?
11:12:26  <NGC3982> :D
11:13:20  <frosch123> NGC3982: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Thursday
11:13:22  <frosch123> same origin
11:13:37  <Eddi|zuHause> well, it's even the same word. "Donnerstag" is (allegedly) named after the Germanic god "Donar", which is the equivalent of the nordic "Thor" (hence Thor's Day)
11:14:06  <NGC3982> frosch123: Does Thor and Thunder originally mean the same?
11:14:14  <NGC3982> Oh.
11:14:21  <frosch123> thor is the god responsible for thunder afaik
11:14:39  <frosch123> other gods are only able to do lightning or something like that
11:16:46  <NGC3982> Yes, of course. My first impression was that most languages used "thor", while germany used "thunder"
11:17:02  <NGC3982> But, Eddi clarified it.
11:17:49  <NGC3982> And with that, i guess Donar and the german word for thunder has a linked past.
11:20:00  <Sturmi> dont need to guess there, it is linked
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11:22:06  <rymate1234> hey
11:22:21  <rymate1234> I'm running openttd 1.2.3
11:22:31  <rymate1234> I have a station that trains are completely avoiding
11:22:55  <rymate1234> they head towards it and turn around
11:23:08  <andythenorth> hrm
11:23:13  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: so what's thursday in swedish?
11:23:20  <Psyk> maybe the station is not electrified?
11:23:30  <Sturmi> rymate: sounds like there are the wrong rails
11:23:41  <andythenorth> what's the opposite of orthogonal?
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11:23:44  <Eddi|zuHause> rymate1234: missing catenary, usually
11:23:54  <rymate1234> catenary?
11:24:00  <Eddi|zuHause> electrification
11:24:01  <rymate1234> ah
11:24:26  * rymate1234 feels stupid now
11:24:43  <Eddi|zuHause> that happend to pretty much all of us here once :)
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11:25:47  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: Exactly as in English. Tors dag. Thors day.
11:27:01  <rymate1234> why do electrified stations have to look exactly like normal ones
11:27:02  <rymate1234> :(
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11:27:41  <Eddi|zuHause> rymate1234: some stations (especially those with a roof) tend to hide the catenary
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11:29:11  <chester_> andythenorth: parralel
11:40:26  <andythenorth> I think in this case, converging
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11:41:10  <chester_> ok i have an iso of vs2010
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11:42:47  <chester_> wiki should be updated, only options available to dl are vs 2010 and 2012
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11:43:56  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: just say "not independent"
11:44:00  <drac_boy> hi
11:44:06  <andythenorth> !independent
11:44:31  <Eddi|zuHause> (which is a double negative, btw.)
11:44:50  <andythenorth> dependent
11:45:35  <Eddi|zuHause> depending on context, this may be not clear, though
11:49:05  * NGC3982 googles the word Catenary.
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11:49:38  <drac_boy> NGC3982 thats the overhead wires for the locomotives? :)
11:49:54  <drac_boy> and pantograph is the little arm thinge used to touch the catenary wire for juice
11:50:12  <Eddi|zuHause> it's the mathematical term for the curve described by a hanging chain/wire (German: "Kettenlinie")
11:50:21  <NGC3982> drac_boy: Ah, neat.
11:50:25  <NGC3982> Never heard the word before.
11:50:52  <drac_boy> NGC3982 btw 'trolley arm' also means something that looks like a long pole with small slider or wheel on the wire-touching end
11:50:54  <NGC3982> The use of the word pantograph is not related to trains at all, i guess?
11:51:06  <drac_boy> might be theres other wording for that but 'trolley arm' is the one used in usa
11:51:14  <NGC3982> Afaik, it's a pen-on-paper tool
11:51:16  <NGC3982> Ok
11:51:47  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: just call it cosinus hyperbolicus
11:51:56  <drac_boy> NGC3982 mind you trolley arms are not only for trolleys tho. some light industry railroads used them instead of pantographs
11:52:04  <NGC3982> Ok
11:52:12  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i know that :)
11:52:23  <NGC3982> Chug chug chug with the trolley
11:52:27  <frosch123> never heard the term catenary in math, only in ottd :p
11:52:31  <NGC3982> Dong dong dong with the bell
11:52:44  <andythenorth> frosch123: it's approx same source no?
11:52:48  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i've never really done maths in english
11:52:50  <drac_boy> thats why you sometimes may find a locomotive at times that has a pantograph sandwiched by two trolley poles ... they were meant to work between both trolley and rail networks to put it that way
11:52:58  <NGC3982> Oh, ok
11:53:00  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: just a few words i picked up here and there
11:53:38  <frosch123> andythenorth: what? ottd and math? :p
11:53:47  <drac_boy> heres one quick example NGC3982 http://www.thetransportco.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/l7.jpg
11:53:56  <NGC3982> Ah, i see.
11:53:58  <NGC3982> Cute engine.
11:54:06  <andythenorth> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catenary
11:54:13  <NGC3982> Looks like a kid with an operated cheek bone.
11:54:18  <drac_boy> well they were kinda built 'cheaply' so they always had that industrial look anyway :)
11:54:31  <NGC3982> andythenorth: Oh, neither words are train related.
11:54:35  <NGC3982> I have learned something new.
11:55:17  <drac_boy> mind you some of these ones in SBB have the hood spliced between left and right rather than being offset to one side .. they looks a bit unusually unique
11:56:06  <drac_boy> NGC3982 so what else do you want to learn about now? :P
11:56:07  <NGC3982> As far as i know, i have yet to see modern trains use anything else then asymmetrical Z-shaped pantographs.
11:56:41  <NGC3982> drac_boy: You could always explain how Hawking radiation will contribute to entropy.
11:57:27  <frosch123> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Puentedelabarra%28below%29.jpg <- hmm, apparently it is supposed to have that shape
11:57:31  <frosch123> i.e. it
11:57:35  <frosch123> 's not broken
11:58:02  <drac_boy> mm sorry nope NGC3982 :)
11:58:21  <NGC3982> frosch123: Oh lord.
11:59:00  <frosch123> NGC3982: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stressed_ribbon_bridge
11:59:42  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: some skewed idea to save material on the bridge, i suppose
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12:05:25  <NGC3982> frosch123: That's neat.
12:06:29  <drac_boy> hmm what do you call a locomotive that sometimes runs all on its own and it can carry a bit of cargo itself?
12:06:38  <drac_boy> I know its usually called railmotor in some places
12:08:55  <Eddi|zuHause> you can call this all sorts of things
12:09:04  <frosch123> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railcar <- i know no german term for that
12:09:21  <frosch123> mostly because such things only carry pax nowadays, while everything carrying cargo is bigger
12:09:54  <frosch123> but wiki knows one :)
12:10:07  <frosch123> "gepÀchtriebwagen" "gepÀcklokomotive" :)
12:10:36  <frosch123> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gep%C3%A4cklokomotive
12:11:46  <drac_boy> ah sounds about right
12:12:11  <Zuu> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rail_Motor_Thirlmere.jpg <-- a model for toyland trains? :-)
12:12:31  <frosch123> :o
12:12:45  <drac_boy> I do know some of the older SBB locomotives had a baggage/goods section inside their body. even then you still found these locomotives working freights at times
12:16:24  <drac_boy> frosch123 I've always found germany a bit interesting...they seem to have a better way of putting word meanings together
12:16:27  <drac_boy> but maybe thats just my view :)
12:16:51  <frosch123> not quite :p
12:16:53  <NGC3982> I share that theory.
12:17:04  <NGC3982> It feels like a machine
12:17:07  <frosch123> germans just attach word to each other if they have _some_ correlation
12:17:10  <NGC3982> Well oiled, but mechanical and heavy.
12:17:32  <frosch123> which results in ambiguous terms since the concatenation does not state the direction of correclation
12:17:47  <drac_boy> heh NGC3982
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12:18:56  <drac_boy> heres another question on a completely different locomotive...
12:19:27  <drac_boy> was it only usa because of their cheap logging rails or did any other countries even have geared steam locomotives?  usa had all these Lima Shay in this case
12:19:32  <frosch123> common examples are "babyoil" or "dogcookie" which can mean any of "oil for babies", "oil made by babies", "oil made out of babies"; resp. "cookie for dogs", "cookie baked by dogs", "cookie excreted by dog", "cookie made out of dogs"
12:21:01  <Eddi|zuHause> what's a "DB Keks" then? ;)
12:21:34  <NGC3982> frosch123: :D
12:21:45  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: a "gepÀcklomotive" is certainly a bunch of bags, piled up into the shape of a locomotive
12:22:21  <drac_boy> heh :)
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12:22:36  <Sturmi> what about "Triebwagen"?
12:23:03  <frosch123> it's a brothel inside a caer
12:23:12  <Eddi|zuHause> it's certainly a wagon where you go about your primal instincts :p
12:23:18  <Sturmi> :D
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12:25:33  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, that is not a problem of the concatenation itself, it works the same way in english without leaving out the spaces between the words
12:25:56  <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause like 'diesellok' becomes 'diesel loco'?
12:26:19  <Eddi|zuHause> something like that
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12:29:06  <drac_boy> whats a db keks?
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12:31:54  * NGC3982 enjoys writing words together.
12:32:02  <NGC3982> A good ol' Swedish SÀrskrivning.
12:32:13  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: some mildly derogatory term for the "DB" sticker they put on engines and wagons
12:32:35  <NGC3982> For instance, the swedish word for "nurse" is "sjuksyster", made with the words "sjuk" (sick) and "syster" (sister).
12:32:53  <NGC3982> We write it together, not to confuse people with instead describing a sick family member.
12:33:11  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: that's pretty much the same as in german
12:33:16  <NGC3982> It makes for great humour when people don't write the words together properly.
12:33:35  <chester_> ========== Build: 5 succeeded, 1 failed, 0 up-to-date, 1 skipped ========== - is it normal? i'd skipped music, and whats the sedtination folder for bin?
12:33:58  <Eddi|zuHause> chester_: you can run it by pressing the run button in VS
12:34:19  <Eddi|zuHause> chester_: usually it is in objs/
12:34:59  <Eddi|zuHause> unlike the linux makefile, the vs projects don't have code for copying the binary after linking
12:35:45  <NGC3982> What more, "Gladpackad rÀkmacka" means "A shrimp sandwich wrapped in plastic". Separating the words to "Glad packad rÀkmacka" instead makes "Happy drunk shrimp sandwich".
12:36:46  <drac_boy> eddi oh heh ok
12:36:48  <chester_> doesnt work for me, F5 says 3 projects are outdatd
12:36:55  <NGC3982> "Rökfritt" means "Non smoking". "Rök fritt" means "Please, smoke!"
12:36:58  <NGC3982> Etc.
12:37:11  <NGC3982> I'm so bored.
12:37:49  <chester_>     version - Debug Win32
12:37:50  <chester_>     settings - Debug Win32
12:37:50  <chester_>     openttd - Debug Win32
12:37:50  <chester_> are outdated
12:38:47  <chester_> dmusic.cpp(25): fatal error C1083: Cannot open inclu
12:39:44  <andythenorth> cargos should have an action 0 prop for climate availability :P
12:39:53  <andythenorth> or vehicles shouldn't :P
12:40:03  <chester_> ah wait i didnt rtfm
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12:47:00  <chester_> i'v compiled it, but it consumes 100% of a core and is very slow
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12:53:34  <rymate1234> well
12:53:47  <rymate1234> this is one station I didn't plan well http://i.imgur.com/ORzWj.png
12:54:05  <rymate1234> it's..... a bit small
12:54:07  <rymate1234> :D
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12:54:31  <chester_> its 2 times larger than precompiled, i think its a debug version
12:56:49  <Pinkbeast> rymate: surely it could extend up the line a bit, allowing larger trains
12:59:00  <rymate1234> hmm
12:59:08  <rymate1234> I could try
13:00:02  <Pinkbeast> ... if the town will let you build station tiles at all.
13:00:21  <rymate1234> well
13:00:26  <rymate1234> they reeeeeallly like me
13:00:36  <rymate1234> we have an outstanding relationship
13:00:38  <Pinkbeast> In that case you could also just demolish a bunch of their buildings. :-)
13:00:56  <rymate1234> I'm not that sort of person :P
13:01:06  <frosch123> abusing relationships :p
13:03:09  <rymate1234> whoops
13:03:18  <rymate1234> destroyed two trains
13:04:02  <rymate1234> how long does it take to clear the debris away? D:
13:04:20  <frosch123> a month or so
13:05:07  <rymate1234> great
13:06:37  <drac_boy> couldn't bother stopping trains or watching your signals? :->
13:08:21  <NGC3982> I'm playing with UKRS2+ and starting at 1832. I'm using the very, very small 2-2-0 Planet at 12kN.
13:08:31  <NGC3982> Should i go for full load and unload, or load if available?
13:08:45  <frosch123> @calc 4400 / 74
13:08:45  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 59.4594594595
13:08:54  <frosch123> rymate1234: actually, two months :)
13:09:25  <rymate1234> drac_boy, exactly!
13:09:38  <drac_boy> rymate1234 then don't complain? heh :)
13:09:46  <rymate1234> lol
13:10:29  <Pinkbeast> NGC: I did not find the Planet much use for cargoes other than pax and mail.
13:11:17  <chester_> yeah i have it working and its 3k+ kB smaller
13:11:37  <Pinkbeast> But if I was carrying cargo, I would full load and reduce the number of wagons appropriately - it is so underpowered it is clearly no use to be towing empty wagons
13:12:04  <NGC3982> Pinkbeast: Oh, sorry. I was refering to driving pax.
13:13:02  <Pinkbeast> I never full load with pax because how do you know which end of the connection produces more? I use timetable separation if available. So perhaps I'm not someone to ask because I don't have any special advice for the Planet.
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13:15:00  <Pinkbeast> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=52073 is the game I played from 1801 to 1855, if it is of any use.
13:16:34  <rymate1234> ooo shit
13:16:49  <rymate1234> one of my trains crashed into a competitors road vehicle
13:16:51  <rymate1234> :D
13:17:12  <Pinkbeast> Doesn't matter a whit to you, trains can steamroller RVs all day without penalty.
13:17:20  <rymate1234> I know lol
13:17:39  <Pinkbeast> (Which is some compensation for the way RVs are otherwise perfectly safe rather than hideously dangerous as in reality)
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13:18:35  <rymate1234> yay for complex rail tracks
13:18:43  <rymate1234> 4 trains on 2 tracks ftw
13:19:45  <NGC3982> Pinkbeast: Oh, ok.
13:20:22  <chester_> recompiling didnt help, game still lags
13:20:58  <NGC3982> Pinkbeast: I just love when that happends. You build a big freight line nearby a town (where you have a few dozen busses) and then ignore it for a few years. When you return the town has expanded the roads, and the busses suddenly takes a nifty path over the rails
13:21:33  <drac_boy> Pinkbeast problem is the train that crashes the rv.....loses its station rating a lot of the times :P
13:21:44  <NGC3982> And you sit there, wondering what happend to all of your busses who suddenly seems have disappeared. :P
13:21:48  <drac_boy> plus don't ask about the "train wrecked together with rv" option that some people actually enable
13:21:54  <drac_boy> ;)
13:22:41  <Pinkbeast> I only really build trams and tramlines don't extend themselves so I don't have that worry.
13:23:36  <drac_boy> heh btw to be honest.. train+tram crashes sometimes still can happen
13:23:48  <V453000> why dont you just prevent towns from building road crossings at least ... or disable towns to build roads entirely - they do it inefficiently and ugly anyway
13:23:57  <drac_boy> especially if you're running the 'long' refitted trams from HEQS .. they always are slow to clear a tile :-s
13:24:12  <Pinkbeast> Only if I build rail/tram crossings, which I don't.
13:24:35  <drac_boy> if theres still one fault I find with trams.....
13:24:45  <drac_boy> why is there no tram tracks without the overhead wires >_<
13:24:58  <rymate1234> looks like one of my AI's is updating to monorail
13:25:01  <Pinkbeast> You can turn visibility off on the catenary if you're using horse trams
13:25:36  <rymate1234> ....horse trams?
13:25:44  <Pinkbeast> Most of my later screenies in that thread have no catenary visible.
13:25:57  <Pinkbeast> rymate: One of the EGRVTS has horse-drawn trams.
13:26:36  <Pinkbeast> My main gripe with trams is as with RVs: approach a station with several platforms/bays, and they all love to queue up at the same one and get stuck.
13:26:51  <rymate1234> ah
13:27:46  <Pinkbeast> You have to turn off realistic acceleration for RVs because they have no power output
13:29:13  <drac_boy> Pinkbeast actually I mean being able to run one route with industrial steam locomotive but another town route with trolleys
13:30:01  <drac_boy> and Pinkbeast actually realistic accerlation used to work before...its just that recent versions of ottd seem to break the horse vehicles with 0hp for some weird reason
13:30:18  <drac_boy> they still have some kN but its no use without 1+hp
13:30:24  <Pinkbeast> As you would expect.
13:30:33  <Pinkbeast> If they worked before with 0hp that was clearly buggy.
13:30:47  <chester_> next question: is it possible to reduce fps/skip frames to save cpu for pathfinder/whatever else? in general, how to reduce cpu consumption by modifying source code?
13:30:51  <drac_boy> actually it wasn't 0hp before :p
13:30:59  <drac_boy> but anyway do you get what I said about tram wires tho?
13:31:52  <Pinkbeast> So when you say "recent versions of ottd seem to break the horse vehicles with 0hp for some weird reason" perhaps you mean "horse vehicles with 0hp have never worked as you would expect"?
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13:32:18  <rymate1234> sure horse carts should have 1hp
13:32:29  <rymate1234> *surely
13:32:53  <Pinkbeast> rymate: 2-6hp actually for the EG ones. But the trouble is the quantum of RV power is rather too large for that.
13:33:09  <drac_boy> Pinkbeast nope...
13:33:32  <drac_boy> before they did not have any hp shown at all .. and could work at full speed anyway .. its the recent versions of ottd that seem to break the horses..thats all I can say
13:33:41  <Pinkbeast> drac: You're just totally confused.
13:33:54  <drac_boy> nope...I know because I actually used to play with these horse vehicles before
13:33:57  <Pinkbeast> You've just turned on realistic RV acceleration, which causes a power setting to be shown (and them not to work).
13:34:01  <Pinkbeast> That's all.
13:34:08  <drac_boy> Pinkbeast I *always* have realistic on all the times
13:34:12  <drac_boy> and it worked before too
13:34:21  <Pinkbeast> But in older versions realistic RV acceleration did not exist.
13:34:37  <drac_boy> so what was the advanced setting option for if it didn't do anything then?
13:34:50  <Pinkbeast> As I said, you're just confused.
13:36:14  <rymate1234> :(
13:36:22  <rymate1234> I wanted to build an airport
13:36:28  <rymate1234> but someone built them all before me
13:36:29  <rymate1234> :(
13:36:56  <drac_boy> Pinkbeast nope I wasn't unless you want to actually tell the ottd coders they're the confused one :)
13:37:04  <drac_boy> because the option has been in there
13:37:25  <drac_boy> rymate1234 heh I take it town noise level is enabled?
13:37:33  <Pinkbeast> Feel free to show me an old version where it's in there but the then EGRVTS vehicles work. You can't.
13:37:38  <rymate1234> Not sure
13:38:00  <rymate1234> lemme check
13:38:01  <drac_boy> rymate1234 open a town dialog ... does it mention noise level?
13:38:32  <Pinkbeast> ... when did you start playing, drac?
13:38:38  <rymate1234> Nope
13:40:06  <rymate1234> It says "x local authority refuses to allow another airport to be built in this town
13:40:35  <drac_boy> rymate1234 oh hmm I could be wrong but maybe thats from the 2-airports-per-town limit?
13:40:46  <rymate1234> might be
13:40:49  <rymate1234> lemme count 'em
13:40:56  <drac_boy> it does not have to be inside town .. just close enough to be associated with that town (like the industry names are)
13:41:06  <rymate1234> yup
13:41:10  <rymate1234> two airports
13:41:21  <rymate1234> drac_boy, I want a passenger airport though :(
13:41:25  <drac_boy> well...there we go. thats whats bollocking you from being able to build any :|
13:41:34  <drac_boy> mm
13:41:45  <Pinkbeast> C'mon, what year?
13:41:59  <drac_boy> I always play with no noise level and no airport limit myself tho ... then again I use planes for real purpose other than just to be cash cows
13:42:28  <rymate1234> how to increase the limit?
13:42:29  <rymate1234> :D
13:45:24  <drac_boy> rymate1234 if its your own game...disable the 2-airport limit ;)
13:45:30  <rymate1234> yea
13:45:38  <rymate1234> how do I do that
13:45:42  <rymate1234> is it in difficulty?
13:45:48  <drac_boy> advanced settings
13:46:07  <drac_boy> or was it only in the cfg file through text editor alone? I can't recall now
13:48:22  <Pinkbeast> Anyway, http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=33415 vs. http://gandalf.zernebok.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=40459 - there is _at least_ a 16-month window where if you were using EGRVTS you'd not have realistic RV acceleration because it didn't exist.
13:52:42  <rymate1234> welp
13:52:55  <rymate1234> can't find the 2-airport limit
13:53:21  <Pinkbeast> Crush the competitors so their airports vanish. :-)
13:53:23  <V453000> honestly original acceleration seems a lot better for RVs
13:53:38  <V453000> with realistic they dont slow down almost at all, and their acceleration is wtf long often
13:54:00  <V453000> in total means that you get more jams and stuff with original
13:55:03  <V453000> and while the acceleration behaves pretty similarly like original train acceleration, for RVs it is actually very viable, RVs have no short/long curves, they need to have some difficulties - so at least hills/curves ... while keeping nice acceleration
13:56:00  <rymate1234> Pinkbeast, might be hard
13:56:25  <rymate1234> Here's my main competitor http://i.imgur.com/16FgC.png
13:57:20  <Pinkbeast> Not entirely serious - basically if the AI works (and NoCAB does) about all you can do is cheese like steamrollering all its RVs)
13:57:36  <rymate1234> lol
13:57:43  <rymate1234> there's 500 road vehicles
13:57:44  <Pinkbeast> And against that behemoth even that might not work.
13:57:54  <rymate1234> that's quite a lot
13:58:11  <rymate1234> might just have to hope that a recession happens
13:58:15  <Pinkbeast> Well, in particular, it's exploiting the utility of aircraft shamelessly.
13:58:30  <Pinkbeast> I think essentially you'd be straight to the cheat menu to get rid of that. :-(
13:59:04  <rymate1234> lol
13:59:10  <rymate1234> I'll put up with it
13:59:17  <rymate1234> I'm making a million a year
13:59:23  <rymate1234> which isn't too bad
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14:01:01  <drac_boy> sorry you're right rymate1234 not sure where the 2-airport-limit is...maybe I'm thinking of it being specific to ttdxp instead
14:01:14  <rymate1234> :(
14:02:08  <drac_boy> rymate1234 do you ever play with the small airport always enabled or not? just curious
14:02:26  <rymate1234> drac_boy, I hardly ever use airports tbh
14:02:31  <drac_boy> heh ok
14:02:49  <rymate1234> Just the only time I want to use them, someone got there before me
14:02:56  <drac_boy> I always have it on .. because even in 1990 it could be I still want to build a little airport only for one or few single-prop planes to land at on
14:03:02  <drac_boy> :->
14:03:21  <drac_boy> then again in ttdxp you only have small or city more or less ^_^
14:06:22  <rymate1234> Here's my openttd world http://zoom.it/oVJV
14:10:21  <drac_boy> sorry need to go for a while now, maybe later rymate1234 :)
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14:10:27  <rymate1234> ok
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14:55:12  <__ln___> did the germaneses dub all the elvish spoken in the hobbit?
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15:10:28  <Kjetil> __ln___: yeah. they probably dubbed it to some austrian dialect
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15:15:47  <drac_boy> hi....again? :)
15:16:11  * drac_boy flies a Beaver onto rymate1234's airport
15:16:13  <drac_boy> heh
15:17:03  <drac_boy> anyway just curious but do rail wagons only have one capacity for all cargos or can you eg have 40 tonnes coal but only 30 tonnes ore refit options from the same one wagon id?
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15:18:29  <drac_boy> hi andythenorth anything else to keep complaining about or what? heh :p
15:18:42  <frosch123> one vehicle has only one cargo type
15:18:54  <drac_boy> frosch123 mm thats what I had presumed...thanks
15:18:55  <frosch123> but one vehicle does not necessarily match the vsisible vehicles 1:!
15:19:02  <andythenorth> drac_boy: I could complain about stupid questions
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15:19:08  <frosch123> there are various trainsets with combined pax/mail wagons
15:19:17  <frosch123> which look like 1 vehicle, but are technically 2
15:19:20  <knight-work> Hi Guys
15:19:31  <drac_boy> frosch123 oh .. guess I'll just use more wagon ids (theres lot free) then .. I just wanted to eg have a lower ore capacity because of its higher density etc
15:19:58  <frosch123> drac_boy: oh, i completely misunderstood you then :o
15:19:58  <drac_boy> thanks...just wanted to check if there was any alternative or not...seem like I was right
15:20:06  <drac_boy> frosch123 ah heh np
15:20:10  <frosch123> i thought you meant carrying coal and iore at the same time
15:20:23  <drac_boy> frosch123 I'm actually going to have one early wagon that will be part mail and part passenger
15:20:26  <frosch123> you can define completely different capacities for cargotypes
15:20:36  <frosch123> but i do not exactly recommend that
15:20:40  <drac_boy> that is if you have heard of the term Combine? (or whatever other terms there is for it)
15:21:04  <frosch123> differences between cargos are something for industry sets
15:21:29  <knight-work> Can some help: I'm trying to modify a GRF file so that I can make the train available on all railtypes.  However, I can't match up what the wiki says with this NFO file
15:21:54  <drac_boy> heres an example frosch123 just in case you were going to ask http://www.bcoolidge.com/pictures/Heavyweight-Combine-for-the-National-Limited-at-Baltimore_10_13_63_w.jpg
15:22:02  <frosch123> knight-work: compatiblity between railtypes is no property of the train, but of the railtype
15:22:12  <drac_boy> that one is baggage/passenger but there were also mail/passenger ones too
15:22:57  <drac_boy> I'll just do eg 24px for the visible wagon with passenger capacity.. then an invisible 1px "wagon" for the mail capacity
15:23:18  <drac_boy> or something like that..haven't checked how to actually make the idea work yet
15:25:31  <drac_boy> anyone want to correct me on an alternative way to do it or this 24+1px articulated wagon is the right way to go?
15:25:55  <knight-work> frosch123: ok, I have 1 * 57	 08 06 "$?" 00 00 which I believe is for the type of rail, in this case Electric?
15:26:31  <frosch123> that is the action 8 which gives the name of the grf
15:26:37  <frosch123> that has nothing to do with railtypes :p
15:27:01  <drac_boy> :)
15:28:05  <drac_boy> frosch123 btw in this case re cargo weight..I'll just have eg a 'hopper' for coal/wheat/etc and 'heavy hopper' for ore/sand/etc ... maybe not perfect but I guess it'll do just for now hm?
15:28:26  <drac_boy> ofc I always could let the latter still carry coal .. just not as much capacity of it tho
15:30:23  * drac_boy wonders why knight-work wants to make weird trains? :->
15:31:03  <frosch123> knight-work: maybe just try the "universal rail type" grf from bananas
15:31:26  <knight-work> drac_boy: I've found a custom GRF which gives Glasgow Underground trains... But presently only on electric rails, so I'd like a version which works on Maglev too
15:31:59  <knight-work> ...For no other reason that it seemed like a simple edit/intro modifying a GRF file
15:32:46  <frosch123> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=63540 <- or try that one
15:32:50  <drac_boy> hm....no idea sorry *points you to the grf suggestion above
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15:34:58  <knight-work> frosch123: Thanks.  checking that one out now
15:37:20  <drac_boy> btw I'm kinda trying to find it while looking for other things but is there any way the grf can add a power car each X cars or its always per-every-car?  something like power-unpower-unpower-power..etca setup
15:38:13  <frosch123> yes you can do such things
15:38:33  <drac_boy> ok...guess I'll see if I can eventually find it :p
15:38:50  <frosch123> you just check the position in the consist
15:39:10  <frosch123> you can add speical wagons at the front, or at the back, or every second or whatever
15:39:21  <frosch123> various sets use this to draw pantographs
15:39:30  <frosch123> e.g. on the last wagon before the back engine
15:39:43  <frosch123> or for supper wagon etc
15:40:39  <drac_boy> mm makes sense yeah .. now that I think about that I've pretty much noticed that NARS and Canset always had some randomized dome cars in longer trains
15:43:10  <drac_boy> frosch123 I was going to use this flag as to say have 600hp motor and another 600+hp per each third wagon. just as an example of why I'm trying to look this up now
15:44:04  <frosch123> in the old days you could define wagons to have power; but this is considered deprecated now
15:44:06  * drac_boy notes its sometimes easy to get lost in the wiki :P heh
15:44:15  <frosch123> today you just set the power of the engine depending on the number of wagons attached
15:44:15  <andythenorth> he
15:44:23  <andythenorth> newgrf is around long enough to have 'old days'
15:44:32  <andythenorth> :)
15:44:47  <drac_boy> frosch123 hmm counting wagons to determine the locomotive? which var is this?? :)
15:44:54  <frosch123> andythenorth: maybe everything before i joined is old :p i am certainly not old :p
15:44:55  <drac_boy> andythenorth heh
15:45:04  * andythenorth is old
15:45:12  <drac_boy> frosch123 I'm not old enough to have seen real steam locomotives in everyday service :-(
15:45:14  <drac_boy> heh heh
15:46:18  <frosch123> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Vehicles#Variables_without_parameter <- just check the first 6
15:46:32  <andythenorth> farms: yellow tractors, or cc?
15:46:58  <peter1138> who owns farms?
15:47:00  <frosch123> in hexadecimal i am still a teenager :)
15:47:26  <andythenorth> peter1138: game owns farms
15:47:34  <andythenorth> call it 'industry colour' if you want
15:47:39  <peter1138> can't be company colour then :p
15:47:41  <andythenorth> avoids confusion
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15:48:56  <drac_boy> andythenorth in north america it would had been red or green? :P
15:49:12  <drac_boy> guess theres always a slight different 'common' colour in different countries
15:52:12  <frosch123> also red and green here
15:52:17  <frosch123> rarely blue
15:52:23  <frosch123> but i cannot remember a yellow tractor
15:52:54  <andythenorth> http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=jcb+fastrac&hl=en&client=safari&tbo=d&rls=en&biw=1255&bih=668&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=05zMUPaSBYLM0QXTrYHoBQ&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAA
15:53:46  <frosch123> the rims can be yellow
15:54:28  <frosch123> most common seems to be green with red rims
15:54:58  <frosch123> http://www.werdum-ferienspass.de/images/640x480trecker_460.jpg
15:55:51  <frosch123> andythenorth: never saw a jcb one
15:56:08  <frosch123> is it brittish?
15:56:50  <frosch123> http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&biw=1236&bih=820&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=lanz&oq=lanz&gs_l=img.3..0i3j0l9.50741.51899.0.52012.8.8.0.0.0.0.117.714.3j4.7.0...0.0...1c.1.bDTepGsDGjw <- classic german tractors
15:56:52  <andythenorth> yarp
15:57:18  <frosch123> well, search for "lanz"
15:57:31  <frosch123> might be easier than that weird link, which claims i use safari :p
15:57:55  <drac_boy> oh yeah I guess the wagon counting thing could be used to add the observation or cab control car to the tail of a train too
15:58:22  <andythenorth> silly old google image search
15:58:28  <knight-work> frosch123, drac_boy: Thanks for the help.  I've managed to get that train on Maglev by using linked tool.  Will have a play around with it tonight
16:00:27  <drac_boy> heh andythenorth nothing about google really 'just works' anyway ;)
16:00:34  <drac_boy> I don't use it much in first place for that matter
16:01:05  <knight-work> I'm off.. Thanks once again
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16:18:21  <LordAro> eveings
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16:19:15  <drac_boy> hi LordAro
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16:35:16  <drac_boy> hi chester_1
16:35:24  <rymate1234> hey
16:35:30  <chester_1> hi
16:36:11  <drac_boy> rymate1234 so how did it go? :p
16:36:16  <drac_boy> how doing chester_1?
16:36:50  <chester_1> i was disconnected and reconnected, seems have sort of shizophrenia now
16:37:34  <rymate1234> drac_boy, gave up on airports
16:37:50  <drac_boy> heh ok
16:38:01  <drac_boy> which grfs you using just out of curiousity rymate1234?
16:38:06  <chester_1> any developer online?
16:38:45  <rymate1234> drac_boy, none apart from AI's
16:39:03  <rymate1234> haven't delved into grfs yet
16:39:55  *** chester_ [~chester@128-72-149-195.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:41:47  <drac_boy> ah ok :)
16:47:58  <chester_1> this channel is useless without developers online! saturday evening!
16:48:33  <andythenorth> eh?
16:48:43  <andythenorth> what are you on about?
16:48:49  <Alberth> that's a quick conclusion
16:49:11  <andythenorth> Alberth: it's an elegant troll :)  Now everyone comes running :
16:49:12  <andythenorth> :)
16:49:30  <chester_1> i just read the topic
16:49:40  <chester_1> it says thereis another channel
16:49:41  <chester_1> #openttd.dev
16:49:53  <andythenorth> there is that
16:49:55  <chester_1> take my words back
16:50:00  <chester_1> going there
16:50:22  <Alberth> chester_1: FYI, oftc has several thousands of channels
16:50:31  <andythenorth> you might not have voice in .dev
16:50:52  <chester_1> i only need ottd developers to talk
16:51:19  <andythenorth> can I subcontract making some FIRS decisions? :P
16:51:24  <andythenorth> I'll do the work :P
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16:51:50  <Alberth> just running compilations :)
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16:51:57  <Alberth> what's your problem?
16:52:25  <andythenorth> I need to make date-sensitive graphics for junk yard http://hg.openttdcoop.org/firs/raw-file/43d5b6207b09/src/graphics/industries/junk_yard_1.png
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16:52:40  <andythenorth> I have a steam crane, diesel crane, wheel loader and excavator avaialble
16:52:56  <andythenorth> I need someone to tell me combinations of those, with date ranges
16:53:11  <andythenorth> i.e. "2x steam crane until 1940" etc
16:53:23  <andythenorth> I have decision-boredom :)
16:53:32  <andythenorth> copying and pasting them around is easy though
16:54:10  <drac_boy> heh
16:54:14  <Pinkbeast> Surely steam cranes until 1950 at least.
16:55:14  * drac_boy is putting steam locomotives till 2040 in fact
16:55:18  <drac_boy> :p
16:55:38  <Alberth> 2x steam crane until 1950, 1xsteam, 1x diesel 1950-1970, 2xdiesel crane 1970-2000 ?
16:56:15  <rymate1234> I wish there was an easier way to upgrade from railways to maglev
16:56:36  <Pinkbeast> I would think the 1xSteam 1xDiesel period should be short - '52 to '55 or so, say.
16:56:50  <Alberth> rymate1234: don't upgrade, but build new tracks next to the existing ones
16:57:19  <Alberth> Pinkbeast: good idea, I was pondering what to do with the other ones
16:57:35  <drac_boy> maglev? whats maglev? ;)
16:57:55  <drac_boy> heh
16:58:18  <rymate1234> Alberth, not an option in my situation http://i.imgur.com/hHawv.png
16:58:39  <Alberth> wheel loader and excavator at 2000+ ?
16:59:05  <Sturmi> teleporter after 2100
16:59:07  <Pinkbeast> Excavators are 80s, for sure. :-)
16:59:08  <drac_boy> rymate1234 umm yeah you can actually
16:59:15  <rymate1234> oh?
16:59:35  <drac_boy> just sell some trains to use a mostly-one-line working ... other line next to that .. till its double new route
16:59:53  <rymate1234> ah
16:59:53  <drac_boy> I do that often for the busy city stations anyway
17:00:06  <rymate1234> might as well do it all at once
17:00:44  <frosch123> chester_1: development is on hold for 4 months; we do not want a r25k party in winter
17:00:48  <Pinkbeast> Have no shame about turning on "build while paused"...
17:01:06  <rymate1234> Pinkbeast, lol
17:01:10  <rymate1234> might do actually
17:01:30  <chester_1> i dont need to add a feature
17:01:51  <chester_1> i only want to know is it possible to tweak the game slightly
17:01:59  <Alberth> yes
17:02:01  <chester_1> turn a feature off
17:02:21  <chester_1> it says cannot send to channel
17:02:25  <Pinkbeast> chester, why don't you ask your question, rather than asking meta-questions about it?
17:02:39  <chester_1> hi, i'v made an investigation, the less trains on the screen the less cpu consumption, so is there any way to make the game refresh its screen, say every 2 or more tick to make playing available. now it tries to run smoothly but finally fails and disconnects with 'your cpu took too long..'. i'd tried recompiling with ShowCostOrIncomeAnimation and ShowFeederIncomeAnimation in misc_gui.cpp turned off, but it didnt help much (turns off
17:02:48  <Alberth> Pinkbeast: it's so secret, nobody is allowed to know :)
17:03:11  <chester_1> i was asking today several times
17:03:34  <Pinkbeast> Truncated at "(turns off" and... what have you done to the game to make it CPU-bound?
17:03:49  <chester_1>  (turns off these signs at arrival)
17:04:20  <chester_1> i have amd brisbane a core @ 2100
17:04:52  <Alberth> chester_1: of course it has little impact, money animations happen almost never
17:05:00  <chester_1> not very outdated, but after about 1200 trains in the game i cannot join
17:06:03  <Pinkbeast> But I suspect (all else aside) almost all the CPU here is going on pathfinding etc, not on displaying sprite graphics at a few dozen frames a second!
17:06:09  <Alberth> yeah, many trains tend to make the game very slow
17:06:09  <frosch123> chester_1: go to SpecializedVehicle::UpdateViewport
17:06:24  <Pinkbeast> You haven't changed the train/rv pathfinder from YAPF have you?
17:06:45  <frosch123> and add something like "if (tick_counter & 7) return;"
17:07:02  <chester_1> i play @openntcoop, they have all things right
17:07:08  <Pinkbeast> frosch: but is this going to solve his problem?
17:07:38  <frosch123> Pinkbeast: apparently (s)he is playing on a server; so only client-side stuff can be changed
17:08:32  <drac_boy> hmm I never bothered testing it but its funny how many trains+ships you can put on a little motorola cpu and still get smooth play :->
17:09:05  <Alberth> drac_boy: not having a large map also helps
17:09:10  <Pinkbeast> I still don't believe dropping frames will have any useful effect.
17:09:21  <drac_boy> alberth hmm you mean like 2048x2048 etc?
17:09:23  <frosch123> chester_1: turning off "full animation" might also help
17:09:28  <frosch123> or setting trees to transprent
17:09:31  <frosch123> *invisible
17:09:37  <chester_1> didnt find SpecializedVehicle::UpdateViewport, many UpdateViewports in several files however
17:09:50  <frosch123> vehicle_base.h
17:10:03  <drac_boy> frosch123 and making sure that variable snowline is not on if you got it .. that causes jerks during the winter>spring and fall>winter months some of the times
17:10:04  <chester_1> all possible options in the game was turned off
17:10:18  <chester_1> so i have started with sources
17:10:35  <Pinkbeast> Tried the OTTD-coop IRC channel? Surely you cannot be the only one with this problem.
17:11:24  <chester_1> there are many of us
17:11:37  <chester_1> we simply cannot join and the n map restarts
17:13:43  * drac_boy goes to make lunch
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17:17:33  <chester_1> compiling with 'if (tick_counter & 2) return;' added
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17:27:30  <chester_1> YEAH Pinkbeast cant you beleive it??? I CAN JOIN AND PLAY
17:28:39  <Pinkbeast> I certainly am surprised.
17:28:44  <chester_1> i'v tried single with autosave, cpu consumption dropped from 50% (100% core) to 30-40%
17:30:23  <chester_1> very helpful option for laptops/netbooks/old computers
17:30:54  <frosch123> how jerky do the vehicles move? :p
17:31:19  <chester_1> not very
17:31:20  <frosch123> do they glitch? do they leave remants when moving?
17:31:36  <chester_1> no, almost as normal
17:32:23  <chester_1> they drop every even frame, this doesnt affect much
17:33:35  <frosch123> haha, title game with & 31 certainly looks funny
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18:01:12  <chester_1> http://www10.zippyshare.com/v/91535502/file.html if someone wants to test
18:02:02  <chester_1> winXP 32
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18:45:44  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24822 /trunk/src/lang (6 files) (2012-12-15 18:45:32 UTC)
18:45:45  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:46  <DorpsGek> catalan - 1 changes by arnau
18:45:47  <DorpsGek> english_US - 1 changes by Rubidium
18:45:48  <DorpsGek> french - 1 changes by glx
18:45:49  <DorpsGek> greek - 4 changes by kyrm
18:45:50  <DorpsGek> polish - 1 changes by wojteks86
18:45:51  <DorpsGek> russian - 1 changes by Lone_Wolf
18:46:09  <Alberth> was Dorpsgek always this slow?
18:46:47  <LordAro> what 12 seconds?
18:47:02  <Alberth> no, one line of text a second
18:47:09  <frosch123> yes
18:47:14  <Rubidium> intentionally
18:47:23  <frosch123> i guess it fears being kicked :p
18:47:46  <Alberth> I just never noticed it before, for some reason
18:48:14  <LordAro> it didn't used to, did it?
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18:51:33  <Rubidium> oh, it did
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18:52:55  <Alberth> My log says otherwise http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1978/   unless I took a bad sample
18:53:20  <frosch123> that's cia, not dorpsgek
18:54:00  <Alberth> ha, so that's the difference
18:54:24  <Alberth> thanks
18:54:38  <SpComb> one line a second is fast, the general average is 2s/line
19:00:25  <Eddi|zuHause> so i guess they didn't revive CIA?
19:00:49  <frosch123> they will return "soon"
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19:56:31  <LordAro> "they" ?
19:58:44  <SpComb> CIA died a not very pretty death
19:59:02  <LordAro> how so?
19:59:26  <SpComb> their server got wiped, and the setup wasn't really backuped or even documented
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20:00:28  <SpComb> sponsored server by some company that got bought etc
20:00:53  <LordAro> woops
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20:04:27  <SpComb> http://shadowm.rewound.net/blog/archives/245-CIA.vc-is-dead.html
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20:36:21  <andythenorth> ho ho, python implemented in js (far as I can tell) http://www.brython.info/index_en.html
20:36:59  <Alberth> crazy people :p
20:37:46  <andythenorth> not crazier than spending your life coding js
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20:38:59  <drac_boy> hi
20:39:31  <Alberth> hi
20:39:42  <Alberth> or building a computer in minecraft :p
20:40:59  <Eddi|zuHause> building an interpreter isn't that hard... porting the libraries is the crazy task
20:44:12  <Alberth> pypy probably helps a lot :)
20:44:57  <rymate1234> pypypypy
20:45:17  <Alberth> it needs a js somewhere :)
20:45:43  <drac_boy> heh heh
20:46:48  <rymate1234> pypypypystrap.js
20:49:26  <drac_boy> any of you think making a diesel-battery locomotive makes any sense considering that the tractive+runcost thing is hard to modify on the fly?
20:50:58  <andythenorth> what does it do for gameplay?
20:51:16  <peter1138> nothing
20:52:21  <drac_boy> andythenorth offering lower costs especially with being almost nil $ when sitting at a station for long time
20:52:53  <drac_boy> and the short term extra hp on grades from combo battery+diesel output too
20:52:53  <peter1138> how so?
20:55:25  <Eddi|zuHause> what i wonder is why nobody builds an electric+battery hybrid engine
20:55:52  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: "short term power" is not modelled by the game
20:56:32  <drac_boy> peter think how much fuel it costs to just sit there idling at the station for a month or two ... compared to if the engine was dead while the battery provided airbrake pressure, cab climate, etc. costs almost nothing :)
20:57:10  <drac_boy> electric+battery? mm theres no emission with electric on the locomotive so I doubt anyone would had been too interested
20:57:30  <chester_1> andythenorth: why is coding in js considered harmful?
20:57:33  <frosch123> in what kind of medieval times do you need pressure for breaking?
20:57:35  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: the point is travelling on unelectrified lines
20:57:51  <frosch123> you need pressure for releasing the brakes
20:58:03  <Eddi|zuHause> so you can use the battery to travel unelectrified lines, and recharge by the electric wire if you happen to have one
20:58:15  <Eddi|zuHause> almost every train passes one of those occasionally
20:58:32  <drac_boy> frosch123 you don't want to have 100% brakes all the times .. or as usa more aptly calls it emergency braking ... usually they only set 5-10psi to hold the trains
20:59:11  <peter1138> no harm in having 100% braking when you're... stopped
20:59:30  <drac_boy> eddi oh well in that case runcost would had not been much different...paying for the overhead juice verus paying to maintain the batteries back at the depot
20:59:37  <drac_boy> peter...except that it puts extra wear
20:59:55  <drac_boy> and don't ask about cold pads being squeezed very hard onto the tires...harder to get them to release
21:00:00  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: there have been battery powered vehicles in germany for over 100 years
21:00:19  <peter1138> so what do they do over night?
21:00:25  <peter1138> leave the engines running?
21:01:11  <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause if you mean these battery powered 2-car trainsets ... they had no other power sources at all .. I've always wondered if they actually had lower long term cost than eg a VT100 but mm both are historic now tho
21:01:55  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: there were several types
21:02:26  <Eddi|zuHause> and yes, with those, the batteries were taken out at the depot to recharge
21:03:11  <drac_boy> peter1138 actually they just set it to a small service amount ... and it may bleed another few psi overnight .... then the locomotive only have to pump off about 10-20psi rather than the full 'emergency' before making a quick brake test for deperaturing
21:03:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean a different thing though, some "modern" engines are diesel+battery hybrids. but why the hell would that be "cheaper" than electric+battery hybrids
21:03:37  <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause well its because of the diesel fuel having to be bought and stored onboard .. and the emission wasted
21:03:56  <drac_boy> compared to electric being right there all the times aboard the locomotive in yard or shed
21:04:02  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, so why not remove the diesel engine, and replace it with a pantograph?
21:04:22  <drac_boy> thats assuming theres overheard wire in the first place ^^
21:05:23  <Eddi|zuHause> take for example passenger MUs on unelectrified branch lines, they often end in an electrified main station. the train could recharge there, and go back on its way
21:06:12  <drac_boy> funny thing tho is SBB even for being heavily electified actually still has ordered a diesel-battery locomotive from time to time. I think their most recent one was from Stadler too
21:06:17  <Eddi|zuHause> or the other example is shunting engines, which is usually used on major hub stations, which also usually have (some) electrified tracks
21:06:46  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: that is my entire point: they don't do that. why?
21:07:08  <drac_boy> mm well the only question would be .. how long is this 'branch lines' tho? might be a good reason why they are not considering battery traction
21:07:09  <andythenorth> do a genset instead o_O
21:08:16  <drac_boy> andythenorth gensets works best if its for varying train weights daily .. but if the locomotive is going to sit a lot .. its going to make little difference on the other hand
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21:10:10  <drac_boy> UP actually was testing some shunters with 3x cummins engines in one of their calfornia yard .. and apparently it worked too well since it was a 24/7 operation with different weights from two boxcars to a long cut of multiply 5-spine containers
21:10:59  <chester_1> andythenorth: why is coding in js bad? because i wanted to
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21:11:22  <drac_boy> but on the other hand one of the RailGoat (as it was named) was returned back to the builder because there was little improvement over an old geep diesel
21:11:24  <andythenorth> chester_1: it's not bad
21:11:45  <chester_1> you told its not worth coding in it
21:12:06  <andythenorth> drac_boy: there are crap loads of NRE genset switchers in use
21:14:26  <drac_boy> I'm still a bit questionable about non-diesel fuels especially their efficency but seeing its still too early to get any longterm reports yet I'll probably just rather not vote on it yet
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21:14:50  <drac_boy> CNG tractor, natural gas mainline unit, etc
21:14:54  <andythenorth> chester_1: tbh you have no choice if you want to code for browsers
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21:15:29  <chester_1> i think many of its features eventually will come to old languages, and they already do
21:15:47  <drac_boy> I know that at least CSX and others do have some success with biodiesel blend to slight lower the diesel costs tho
21:17:23  <andythenorth> I probably hate js primarily because of jquery
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21:18:04  <drac_boy> heh I only work with raw js alone here but....no further comment :P
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21:18:15  <andythenorth> when I started coding js, jquery wasn't even thought of
21:18:19  <andythenorth> I wish it had been
21:18:54  <andythenorth> most people coding js for the web now aren't coding js, they're just writing jquery method calls and parameter dicts :P
21:19:54  <drac_boy> well I don't see them most of the times tho. I usually disable any huge downloads that aren't of image/* content type
21:20:05  <drac_boy> just saying
21:21:33  <andythenorth> and you use the internet that way? :O
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21:22:47  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so how is using an overly complex generic whatever thingie like jquery different from boost or java or whatever...?
21:23:07  <andythenorth> about the same
21:23:47  <chester_1> jquery makes ppl think they are coders
21:24:23  <Eddi|zuHause> they said that about any higher level language since the invention of compilers
21:24:54  <andythenorth> imagine
21:24:58  <andythenorth> not writing bytes :O
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21:25:06  <chester_1> true, the lower your language, the cooler you are
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21:26:25  <andythenorth> http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/critical-opalescence/2012/12/14/when-you-fall-into-a-black-hole-how-long-have-you-got/?WT.mc_id=SA_sharetool_Twitter
21:29:55  <ToBeFree> so Python isn't cool at all? I don't think so :D
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21:30:18  <drac_boy> andythenorth yeah ... I don't like having to wait for 300KB worth of downloads just to read only 7KB worth of texts
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21:31:02  <drac_boy> chester_1 heh
21:31:08  <andythenorth> meh
21:31:17  <andythenorth> I hate js because it's not python
21:31:24  <andythenorth> and for me, python is best
21:31:30  <andythenorth> because...?
21:31:50  <chester_1> +1 for python
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21:35:17  <andythenorth> meh
21:35:25  <andythenorth> no further debate? :P
21:35:31  * andythenorth will go to bed
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21:35:54  <chester_1> its possible to use python in the brower if u have it installed
21:36:11  <chester_1> script/python will work
21:37:11  <andythenorth> http://www.skulpt.org
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21:38:11  <Eddi|zuHause> chester_1: you can't rely on anything that is on <90% of all browsers
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21:38:46  <Eddi|zuHause> (and think also of tablets and smartphones)
21:39:24  <drac_boy> wish I could say that to other people too Eddi|zuHause ... me: I only can see a blank black page what are you trying to show?  him/her: wtf? are you sure you're using a web browser  me: yes
21:39:47  <drac_boy> some webmasters have no sense of testing their website on a not-plugins-cluttered browser sometimes :->
21:40:10  <Eddi|zuHause> i get really annoyed when a website doesn't work with javascript disabled
21:40:35  * drac_boy doesn't really care for that tbh
21:41:28  <drac_boy> hm anyway .. a more on-topic question ... industries only can have up to 3 inputs and 2 outputs ... no way around that at all right?
21:41:56  <andythenorth> patch openttd
21:42:10  <andythenorth> what do you think 'only can have' means? :P
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21:42:26  <andythenorth> if it was 'only can have except with workarounds x, y and z'
21:42:29  <andythenorth> then we'd say so :P
21:42:59  <andythenorth> you know tile acceptance is different to industry acceptance though, right?
21:43:02  <drac_boy> heh
21:43:11  <andythenorth> also
21:43:16  <drac_boy> andythenorth yeah I do, I hate the stupid refinery for not acccepting oil all around but meh :p
21:43:28  <drac_boy> I'm talking about the cargo processing tho .. not tile catchment atm
21:43:33  <andythenorth> if you turn js off, and you expect me to provide server-side table sorting, you can think again :P
21:44:41  <andythenorth> also, if you don't have js, and I'm relying on draggable(s), don't expect any cute little arrows or whatever to move stuff around
21:44:47  <andythenorth> just turn on js
21:44:49  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes, i expect dynamic webservers to manage creating dynamic webpages
21:45:03  <Eddi|zuHause> it's what they do all day long
21:46:00  <andythenorth> they can do it less
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21:46:03  <drac_boy> andythenorth the only js thing I have disabled is that menus and scrollbars can't be removed .. I still don't know why that kind of behaviour is still "allowed" .. stupid browser coders :->
21:46:12  <andythenorth> a trip to the server just to change the sort order is dumb
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21:49:53  <chester_1> skulpt seems like bryton u mentioned above, i was talking about using CPython/Jython in the browser
21:50:40  <Alberth> ?
21:50:50  <chester_1> its bad idea if you writing for everyone, not that bad if you know your customer have them
21:51:09  <andythenorth> fair point
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21:54:54  <chester_1> Eddi did you see i finally patched the game and lowered cpu consumption?
21:57:13  <drac_boy> hmmm to have spine wagons or not
21:57:15  * drac_boy thinks
22:01:00  <chester_1> im gonna bed, too late here
22:01:01  * Alberth throws a dice
22:01:02  <drac_boy> meh maybe not..already got the flatcar anyway
22:01:09  * drac_boy deletes a row
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22:01:50  <andythenorth> Alberth: 1/6 chance of a 6
22:01:53  <andythenorth> what did you get?
22:02:08  <Alberth> 0.14678
22:02:19  <andythenorth> intriguing
22:02:21  <andythenorth> try again?
22:02:38  <Alberth> nah, closed the python shell :)
22:03:01  <Alberth> hmm, perhaps there is a command line program for it?
22:03:52  <frosch123> Alberth: your random number generator is buggy
22:03:55  <frosch123> it should return 4
22:04:03  <andythenorth> no dice
22:04:05  <andythenorth> in macports
22:04:18  <andythenorth> I should write one
22:04:18  <Alberth> not in Linux either, weird
22:04:21  <andythenorth> in flash
22:04:29  <Alberth> Java :)
22:04:40  <frosch123> andythenorth: how does rolling a die work with a touchscreen?
22:04:41  *** Djohaal [~Djohaal@177.96.125.19] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
22:04:46  <andythenorth> http://www.jsdice.com/roller/
22:04:56  *** Djohaal [~Djohaal@177.96.125.19] has joined #openttd
22:04:58  <Alberth> frosch123: shake the tablet violently
22:05:06  <andythenorth> frosch123: you just get your die and roll it
22:05:11  <andythenorth> works fine on glass
22:05:16  <andythenorth> might bounce a bit
22:05:36  <frosch123> Alberth: ah, you mean like a dice cup? shake the table and throw it?
22:06:17  <frosch123> though technically you keep the cup
22:06:20  <Alberth> might be a bit rough on the landing part of the tablet :p
22:06:30  <__ln___> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSBefGi7F-Y
22:06:46  <drac_boy> andythenorth just curious, what was the website for FIRS again? it had the pictural list of coded and obsoleted industry sprites too
22:07:10  <frosch123> drac_boy: www.jsfirs.com
22:07:35  <Alberth> frosch123: I saw an advertisement of a game, where you could shoot a star into the game on your console by moving your hand in the direction of the screen on the tablet
22:08:08  <Alberth> (like you throw it)
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22:08:09  <andythenorth> http://www.tt-foundry.com/sets/FIRS/schema/economies
22:08:15  <andythenorth> drac_boy: ^ requires js though
22:09:12  <drac_boy> oh right had forgotten what the name was for some time .. tt-foundry
22:09:18  <drac_boy> thanks
22:09:49  <drac_boy> just wanted have a look at how you dealt with certain cargos too :p
22:10:25  <andythenorth> hmm
22:10:34  <andythenorth> I should generate the html docs from the actual code
22:11:38  <andythenorth> drac_boy: do you have code, or just an epic design?
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22:14:53  <drac_boy> andythenorth long tracking table, some sprites, a few more half-done sprites, and just some 'dummy' nfo files .. not much to really show yet basically :)
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22:18:13  <andythenorth> good night
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22:18:21  <drac_boy> ok
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22:27:37  <drac_boy> heh apparently I'm not the only one to wonder about actually using rack tracks.... hrm
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22:40:03  <drac_boy> probably really best on the arctic maps alone tho so guess thats the issue
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22:54:17  * drac_boy still thinks there should be thin DC and thick AC electrification choices
22:54:25  <drac_boy> maybe too confusing for new people tho :)
22:55:04  <Eddi|zuHause> DC wires are usually much thicker than AC wires
22:56:09  <drac_boy> mm well I was thinking of in-game .. DC would be a single line with simple L shaped masts to hold it .. while AC was of two lines (top one goes up and down at each mast) with more fancy masts
22:56:30  <drac_boy> wouldn't be surprised if former was more geared toward poles rather than pantographs
22:56:52  <drac_boy> but this is only a random thought that might not actually get anywhere tho ;)
22:57:16  <Eddi|zuHause> single vs. double wire has more to do with distance between pylons than anything else
22:57:49  <Eddi|zuHause> also, the speed would be lower, as it would cause higher oscillation in the wire
22:58:06  <drac_boy> mm well I was just going by what I knew of usa .. I guess it varies elesewhere
22:59:11  <drac_boy> the trolley lines even out in countryside were just single wire on basic masts while AC was more or less just the northeast heavy duty lines whcih had more elborate wires&masts
23:04:46  <drac_boy> just for comparing sakes of what I had known .. this is the AC I know http://www.trainsarefun.com/lirr/lirrextralist/PRR-GG1s-Sunnyside-Yd-LIC-c.1958.jpg and ever-earlier (1910s or so) http://images.nycsubway.org/articles/nywb1-01.jpg
23:05:30  <drac_boy> and crude (some other had dedicated metal masts but mm) DC http://myedmondsnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Interurban-train.jpg
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23:09:17  <drac_boy> ofc I have seen photos but sometimes I still have a hard time understanding some of these very early electrifications in europe
23:09:33  <drac_boy> especially the ones with 3 pantographs each touching their own seperate wire
23:09:48  <drac_boy> turnouts must had been a wiring nightmare with these 0_o
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23:15:01  <frosch123> i think three-phase catenary never worked properly
23:16:45  <drac_boy> yeah. at least I recall (its in one of these Contiential Modelling magazine somewhere here) theres a historic rack railroad still in operation .. they have one single wood-cladded locomotive that was actually 3-phase with the given "mess" on its roof .. pushing two matching wood coaches uphill and back
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23:17:04  <drac_boy> but otherwise I've never seen anything else outside old B&W photos indeed
23:17:14  <drac_boy> I guess a single pantograph always win :)
23:18:47  <frosch123> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drehstromantrieb_%28Eisenbahn%29 <- he, there is even a list of all tracks :p
23:19:50  <drac_boy> frosch123 I don't know if you could call it "dual voltage" (since its really not) but I have seen at least one instances of where you had 11KVAC wire centered above track supported from left side .. and offset trolley DC wire to the right supported from right side ... cheap way to let mainline train and local trolleys share the same one platform eh?
23:20:13  <drac_boy> it worked only because the trolley's pole had some sideway flexibility to it after all
23:20:46  <frosch123> http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Jungfraubahn_with_Eiger.jpg&filetimestamp=20120302205946 <- apparently this one is still in use
23:20:52  <drac_boy> ah I think I had heard of that one too frosch123, they had problem making the pantographs stay in contact with the wire at very high speeds?
23:20:57  <frosch123> so, 3-phase usually means rack rail
23:21:08  <frosch123> maybe it works better with low speeds
23:21:23  <frosch123> and is also more useful in high-power cases
23:21:25  <drac_boy> interesting .. modern 3-phase 0_o
23:21:34  <Eddi|zuHause> three-phase catenary was used in northern italy
23:22:22  <drac_boy> frosch123 I may not know much about japan railways but of the few things I did know .. I know that there was one short mountain section somewhere in japan that used 3rd rail rather than overhead electric for the several pusher locomotives "because of better electrical contact"
23:22:49  <drac_boy> only lasted a few years tho because a newer route was built that had much relaxed grades so the heavy pushers weren't neeeded anymore
23:23:32  <drac_boy> thats the only one time I have heard of 3rd rail being used over overhead instead even although it was a very heavy load
23:24:23  <drac_boy> afk .. hot supper :)
23:29:54  <Wolf01> 'night all
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23:41:06  <drac_boy> back now
23:42:08  <frosch123> night
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23:46:42  <drac_boy> hmm may as well as assume rack rails then...seem more interesting
23:46:55  * drac_boy mutters about so much todo notes at the same time
23:52:33  <drac_boy> oh yes had meant to ask this a while ago...
23:52:56  <drac_boy> I don't know whether to just call it 'forest' or not but what would you name an industry thats supposed to log trees for wood?
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