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Morning. 06:58:50 *** Kabaka [~Kabaka@equine.vacantminded.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 07:00:02 *** Kabaka [kabaka@equine.vacantminded.com] has joined #openttd 07:07:50 <planetmaker> moin 07:15:10 *** Elukka [Elukka@a91-152-213-89.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [] 07:20:58 <Supercheese> 'night 07:21:09 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 20.0.1/20130409194949]] 07:24:37 *** George is now known as Guest4763 07:24:41 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has joined #openttd 07:27:21 *** Dr_Tan [~nat@00179a279bbd.click-network.com] has joined #openttd 07:29:50 *** Guest4763 [~George@212.113.107.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:34:02 *** Nat_aS [~nat@00179a279bbd.click-network.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:38:09 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.online.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:43:29 *** Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 07:43:32 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 07:44:27 *** Flygon__ [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has joined #openttd 07:49:50 *** Pensacola [~quassel@h220216.upc-h.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 07:50:52 *** Flygon_ [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:20:40 <planetmaker> juzza1, any not (yet) supported variable can be accessed in NML directly... http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Deprecated_syntax 08:21:05 <planetmaker> I should probably not advertize that, though 08:21:27 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5153E72C.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 08:22:28 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1A179.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 08:29:41 <juzza1> ok 08:29:56 <juzza1> i really feel that should be in NML even though it's not ideally implemented 08:30:23 <planetmaker> yes, it should be there. But I think better implemented :D 08:30:27 <juzza1> :D 08:38:19 <Alberth> I somewhat wonder how the the translation step is that nml makes 08:38:39 <Alberth> +big 08:41:35 <V453000> around 90 centimeters 08:41:40 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5153E72C.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 08:42:33 <Alberth> Recently I wrote a convertor from http://code.google.com/p/freerct/source/browse/trunk/rcd/tracks.txt to http://code.google.com/p/freerct/source/browse/trunk/rcd/data_format.rst#614 byte sequences 08:42:50 <Alberth> it's a lot of code, but not difficult at all 08:43:17 <Alberth> ( http://code.google.com/p/freerct/source/browse/trunk/rcdgen/src ) 08:43:39 <Alberth> the mapping quite straightforward 08:43:44 <Alberth> +is 08:44:04 * Alberth seems to be forgetting crucial words today in sentences today :( 08:44:17 <Alberth> QED :( 08:45:44 *** Rikests [~chatzilla@d40a4940.rev.stofanet.dk] has joined #openttd 08:46:02 <planetmaker> uh... big in what sense, Alberth ? 08:47:22 <Alberth> amount of transformation I guess, ie is there a sort-of simple mapping from input to output? 08:47:57 <Rikests> Hey, which cargo distrubution patch is the best atm? 08:48:18 <planetmaker> there's only one 08:48:31 <Alberth> YACD is the best, CargoD?st is actually working on anything recent, and good too 08:49:35 <planetmaker> Alberth, so your question is why NML does need to make so much fuss about strings, basically? 08:49:57 <Alberth> no, more about entire NML 08:50:32 <Alberth> ie how does a "feature"(??) map to NFO primitives? one-to-one? 08:50:37 <planetmaker> I guess I'm slow and I didn't follow your mental step size yet :-) 08:51:03 <Alberth> it's equally possible I don't explain properly :) 08:51:24 <Alberth> Basically I was wondering what would happen if you take the RCDgen approach to nml 08:51:57 <Alberth> ie rewrite it all in C++ 08:52:14 <planetmaker> it likely would become a lot faster :D 08:52:43 * Alberth adds sufficiently many "sleep(1);" statements in the code :) 08:52:45 <Rikests> what What is the difference between YACD and cargodist? 08:53:28 <Alberth> rcdgen is mostly just 1-to-1, with expression simplification 08:54:24 <planetmaker> Rikests, yacd sets destinations on cargo generation, whether reachable or not. While cargodist distributes cargo to available destinations 08:54:30 <Alberth> obviously it makes life easier by counting things you enter in the input, and filling in such numbers, etc 08:55:21 <Alberth> Rikests: that means with YACD you also get cargo that wants to go elsewhere than what your network provides 08:55:37 <Rikests> Ok, than YACD is more challenging. 08:57:28 <planetmaker> Alberth, so, that converter you wrote, basically is FreeRCT's NML compiler, yes? 08:57:53 <planetmaker> and you wonder about its differences to NML and the reasons for them (if any)? 08:58:07 <Alberth> yes, except I also define the destination :) 08:58:19 <planetmaker> hm? 08:58:31 *** George is now known as Guest4770 08:58:35 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has joined #openttd 08:58:48 <Alberth> the CSTR definition and its TRCK definition is also mine 08:59:13 <Alberth> and I don't have history to worry about :) 08:59:16 <planetmaker> yes, sure. You designed and wrote all parts. Programme, specs, etc 09:00:05 <Alberth> planetmaker: and I wonder whether you can sort-of write the same kind of conversion program, and how difficult it would be 09:00:52 <Alberth> the latter is heavily influenced by how much trickery NML does in its conversion to NFO 09:01:26 <Alberth> hence my question how nml primitives relate to nfo primitives 09:01:35 <planetmaker> many things in nfo / nml are mapping stuff 1:1 sort-of. With conversions in between as needed 09:01:51 <planetmaker> property blocks, sprite blocks, sprite layouts, they all have nfo equivalents 09:02:00 <planetmaker> switch statements 09:02:57 <planetmaker> there's much abstraction on the expression level though. Lot of magic with temp variables which the NML user doesn't see at all 09:03:42 <planetmaker> also variables are not 1:1 mapped necessarily to nfo variables, but could be modified parts of them (like inverted bit 5 of variable XY) 09:04:23 <Alberth> so it does advanced code generation for expressions 09:04:31 <planetmaker> very much so, yes 09:04:47 *** Guest4770 [~George@212.113.107.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:05:41 <planetmaker> that's basically the biggest advantage of NML over NFO 09:06:19 <Alberth> that's mostly local I guess? ie I write something simple in NML, and it generates a shit-load of NFO code to compute its value at that point 09:06:30 <planetmaker> yes 09:07:12 <Alberth> nice, that would mean from a code generation point of view it's not that complicated 09:07:35 <Alberth> just a LOT of work 09:07:44 <planetmaker> compare http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository/entry/regression/expected/003_assignment.nfo vs http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository/entry/regression/003_assignment.nml 09:07:48 <planetmaker> and that's simple stuff 09:08:44 <planetmaker> one of the problems NML also (partially) solves is that it abstracts away differences between different features (train, road vehicle, airports,...) 09:09:05 <planetmaker> by making them work the same way, while the underlaying NFO works (slightly) different 09:09:38 <planetmaker> i.e. speed is given in NML in units of your choice. While NFO has different, arbitrary units for each feature a different one 09:09:42 <Alberth> those assignments look very doable 09:11:34 <Alberth> very useful for the user, from a program point of view very easy to do 09:12:57 <Alberth> the main benefit is probably actually readable input source, instead of numbers with heaps of comments :p 09:13:38 <planetmaker> that as well. But the expression and temporary and permanent variable storage handling really is, too. 09:14:24 <planetmaker> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2272/ is the same as http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2273/ 09:14:49 <Alberth> I can imagine, assembly-level expression operations tend to be hard to read and understand 09:16:34 <planetmaker> I'm not exactly sure how the action6 translates into this: values given as parameter. 09:16:46 <planetmaker> That works somewhat differently in NFO than in NML 09:17:08 <planetmaker> in nfo you first write the statement. And the next statement then is told to modify single bytes in the previous one. Depending on a parameter 09:17:18 <Alberth> action 6 is a weird operator 09:18:08 <Alberth> self-modifying code is something of the '80s :) 09:18:12 <planetmaker> I think in many cases here, the devil is in the detail 09:18:54 <Alberth> unfortunately, it always is 09:19:32 <planetmaker> there have been thoughts to (re-)implement NML in C/C++. Mainly for speed reasons 09:20:18 <Alberth> yeah, I am just not sure it's the right direction 09:20:41 <planetmaker> it's LOADS of work. Without any short and possibly neither mid-term benefit 09:21:01 <Alberth> if you implement a linker at NFO level (or below it), you can do partial compilation, which goes a lot further 09:21:22 <planetmaker> yes 09:21:35 <Alberth> and it allow leverage of the existing NML compiler 09:21:51 <planetmaker> it basically suffices to write the NFO for the parts. And throw grfcodec on them when the parts are properly ordered 09:21:55 <Alberth> (if all is well :) ) 09:22:42 <planetmaker> difficulty is to get right the numbering of items and switch blocks (or rather the nfo equivalent) 09:23:31 <Alberth> afaik, you need a notion of "defining" and "using" between parts 09:24:25 <Alberth> where "defining" probably should assign a number so all uses can refer to it 09:25:00 <Alberth> which boils down to just insterting the same number at several places in the byte stream 09:25:22 <Alberth> and ordering the "define" before the "use" parts :p 09:25:26 <planetmaker> yes. But that needs be done last before actually compiling. In order to avoid conflicts 09:26:06 <planetmaker> so what would need doing basically is NML to output a somewhat pseudo-nfo where action0 IDs and action2 IDs are not yet assigned 09:26:28 <planetmaker> and a numbering step which then converts all these to the actual numbers so that grfcodec can eat it 09:26:50 <Alberth> something like that 09:26:52 <planetmaker> an NFOrenum XXL or so ;-) 09:27:01 <planetmaker> with multi-file support 09:27:42 <Alberth> although I am not sure you want grfcodec at the end, I would generate a byte stream (sprite stream) with 'holes' in it :) 09:28:20 <Alberth> so it becomes just concatenating the sprites after each other, and filling in the holes 09:28:33 <planetmaker> what are the holes? 09:29:03 <Alberth> numbers that need to be filled in, ie the IDs 09:29:41 <planetmaker> yes. grfcodec only comes into play after that is done. 09:30:59 <Alberth> my alternative view is that grfcodec (or NML) generates sprite streams with holes, and a linker program than puts the stream in the proper order, and filling of holes 09:31:43 <Alberth> ie just like gcc -o program *.o instead of gcc -o program *.c 09:31:51 *** Alice3 [~Alice@cpc18-grim14-2-0-cust478.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 09:31:53 <planetmaker> hm, yes. possibly. If it's an NML linker it could (re-use) the sprite cache NML already has 09:32:03 <planetmaker> thus would boil down to splitting NML compiler and linker 09:32:35 <Alberth> there are no sprites any more at that level, just a long sequence of bytes 09:32:47 <Alberth> ie real sprites are already encoded into bytes 09:33:11 <planetmaker> nml's sprite cache is just that, I think 09:33:40 <Alberth> it caches encoded sprite files afaik 09:34:19 <Alberth> my "sprite stream" are sprites as in NFO, ie 1 line NFO == 1 sprite in the stream 09:34:22 <planetmaker> yes. So that it can insert them 1:1 into the grf when needed (again) 09:35:02 <Alberth> sorry, I fail at explaining it :( 09:36:30 <Alberth> consider the output of grfcodec, ie the raw .grf bytes 09:37:11 <planetmaker> yup 09:37:24 <Alberth> only some of the bytes there denote action0 and action2 IDs 09:37:52 <planetmaker> yes 09:37:52 <Alberth> those bytes are holes, all other bytes are fixed 09:38:12 <planetmaker> right yes. I guess we just talked past eachother and meaning the same :-) 09:38:26 <planetmaker> that's what I meant with NML outputting pseudo-NML 09:38:34 <planetmaker> *pseudo-NFO 09:38:49 <Alberth> at that level there are no sprites any more, just bytes 09:39:25 <planetmaker> hm, ok. So you mean beyond NFO. But not yet grf 09:39:33 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5153E72C.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 09:40:35 <Alberth> assume grfcodec can do partial compilation, I have 2 parts, throw it in grfcodec, and get 2 bytes blobs with holes 09:41:17 <Alberth> linking is then deciding which blob should go first, computing a value for all holes, and filling them in 09:41:52 <Alberth> then, just copy the blobs in the right order with the right value for the holes straight into the .grf file 09:42:14 <planetmaker> ok. I think now I understood quite well what you mean :-) 09:42:55 <Alberth> :) 09:43:37 <planetmaker> thanks for your patience :-) 09:44:13 <Alberth> yw :) 09:44:26 <Alberth> this is how linking works with languages like C 09:44:56 <Alberth> where NML is like a C compiler, grfcodec is like an assembler, and ldd is the (dynamic) linker 09:45:44 <peter1138> erm where does ldd fit? 09:46:01 <Alberth> *.c -> *.o, *.s -> *.o, and *.o -> exe 09:46:12 <peter1138> in newgrf land 09:46:21 <planetmaker> currently nowhere 09:46:26 <Alberth> peter1138: you're right, it's the wrong name 09:46:44 <Alberth> planetmaker: actually, ldd, does something else :) 09:46:58 <peter1138> <somehypotheticaltool> is the dynamic linker 09:46:59 <peter1138> yeah 09:47:55 <planetmaker> I assumed you meant ld, Alberth 09:48:42 <Alberth> in newgrf land, imagine that you have a lot of common code for each .grf. You can copy it into each .grf, but that's wasting memory. Instead, you load the common code once in memory, and connect it to each grf at loading time. That's what ldd does 09:49:05 <Alberth> ld would be the right tool here indeed :) 09:50:05 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-4d00865b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 09:50:11 <Alberth> quak 09:50:17 <planetmaker> ok, how did we end here? :-) 09:50:19 <planetmaker> quak, too :-) 09:50:37 <frosch123> moin :) 09:51:11 <Alberth> idle conversation about nml inner operation? :) 09:51:25 <planetmaker> :-) 09:53:34 *** Tvel [~Thunderbi@212.36.5.170] has joined #openttd 09:53:37 <juzza1> is it not possible to change the amount of articulated parts depending on cargo_subtype? 09:53:40 <planetmaker> I really miss some compile lecture in order to really dive into NML, I feel :S 09:53:46 <juzza1> i'm always getting the default amount of parts even after refitting 09:53:47 <planetmaker> juzza1, yes 09:54:08 <planetmaker> heqs does so, for instance 09:55:25 <planetmaker> mind, you cannot refit then in stations (autorefit) 09:55:37 <frosch123> i always hoped we would get some grf library 09:55:50 <planetmaker> grf library in what sense? 09:55:50 <frosch123> so not everyone has to reinvent the encoding and decoding :) 09:55:59 <planetmaker> that sense. yes. makes sense 09:56:13 <juzza1> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2274/ this is the code atm, not working, always returns 3 part articulated 09:56:18 <frosch123> but so far, everyone reimplemented it in a different language :p 09:56:25 <juzza1> in the tutorial it is done by making some parts invisible, i wonder why? http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NMLTutorial/Train_four_part_refit 09:56:52 <frosch123> grfcodec -> c/asm, grf2html -> pascal, grfeditor ( or what was the name?) -> c#, nml -> python ... 09:56:57 <planetmaker> maybe heqs does that, too, juzza1 09:57:22 <planetmaker> he :-) 09:58:14 <planetmaker> frosch123, but which part exactly should be there? 09:58:21 <planetmaker> action14 block? Needs to be specific. 09:58:40 <planetmaker> Action0 block? Also needs to be specific. As need be the action1/2/3 blocks 09:58:45 <frosch123> no, i mean the grf format 09:58:57 <frosch123> encoding, decoding, sprite assembling, clipping, ... 09:59:17 <planetmaker> ah, that. So a library for the compilers, so to speak 09:59:23 <Rubidium> frosch123: don't you mean grfmaker (or was that an omission), though that was Delphi IIRC 09:59:27 <frosch123> maybe later some nfo action classes 09:59:50 <frosch123> Rubidium: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/newgrf-viewer <- that one 10:00:13 <frosch123> oh, it uses c++/qt 10:00:20 <frosch123> i thought there was also a c# thingie 10:01:16 <Rubidium> might that be the someone who's still converting OpenTTD to C#? 10:03:16 <frosch123> Alberth: there are a lot of global-variable-ish things in nfo, which need reservation 10:03:34 <frosch123> like spritegroups referencing spritesets, or relative jumps to other spritenumbers 10:03:48 <frosch123> offset computations within actions 10:04:04 <frosch123> so the code generator in itself has quite some magic 10:06:40 <Alberth> I feared somewhat that a new NML would be less trivial :) 10:07:04 *** Pensacola [~quassel@h220216.upc-h.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:13:42 *** gelignite [~gelignite@i528C3176.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 10:15:41 *** KenjiE20 [kenjie20@2001:470:dc50:b0::21] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:16:43 *** sla_ro|master [~slamaster@89.137.75.224] has quit [Quit: connection reset by myself] 10:17:11 *** MNIM [~mBuntu@ip5452ffad.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:23:57 *** HellTiger [~HellTiger@43-54.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #openttd 10:28:14 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5153E72C.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 10:41:45 *** ZxBiohazardZx [~IceChat77@5ED05D6D.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 10:46:49 *** ZxBiohazardZx [~IceChat77@5ED05D6D.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Never put off till tomorrow, what you can do the day after tomorrow] 11:06:17 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6AF60.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 12:16:30 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-010-234.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 12:18:21 *** George is now known as Guest4778 12:18:25 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has joined #openttd 12:23:35 *** Guest4778 [~George@212.113.107.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:49:14 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1A179.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:49:40 *** roadt_ [~roadt@114.96.135.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:52:33 *** George is now known as Guest4780 12:52:37 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has joined #openttd 12:57:29 *** Guest4780 [~George@212.113.107.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:16:56 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5153E72C.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 13:44:28 *** APTX [APTX@aptx.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:47:08 *** APTX [APTX@aptx.org] has joined #openttd 13:49:57 *** Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 13:57:08 *** DarkAce-Z [~BillyMays@50.107.54.92] has joined #openttd 13:59:39 *** roadt_ [~roadt@114.96.135.87] has joined #openttd 14:00:10 *** DarkAceZ [~BillyMays@50.107.54.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:15:56 *** Flygon_ [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has joined #openttd 14:22:59 *** Flygon__ [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:23:27 *** sla_ro|master [~slamaster@89.137.75.224] has joined #openttd 14:29:10 *** Flygon_ [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 14:33:24 *** Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 14:38:04 *** Tvel [~Thunderbi@212.36.5.170] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:38:42 *** Flygon [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has joined #openttd 15:05:09 *** KouDy [~KouDy@188.75.190.58] has joined #openttd 15:22:58 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@90.193.88.212] has joined #openttd 15:35:52 *** Dr_Tan [~nat@00179a279bbd.click-network.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:41:48 *** Flygon_ [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has joined #openttd 15:43:37 *** Flygon [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:13:13 <planetmaker> http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/current_rivers.png vs. http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/smooth_rivers.png and http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/smooth_rivers_zoom.png :-) 16:15:03 *** Dr_Tan [~nat@00179a279bbd.click-network.com] has joined #openttd 16:17:12 <oskari89> planetmaker: :) 16:17:18 <oskari89> Diagonal roads! 16:17:53 *** Markavian [~Markavian@78-105-168-146.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 16:20:48 <planetmaker> that's at least an order of magnitude more complicated :-) 16:23:28 *** Markavian` [~Markavian@78-105-168-146.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:23:46 <szaman> diagonal bridges! 16:25:09 <Sacro> omfg 16:25:13 <Sacro> pbimttd? 16:26:05 <szaman> diagonal pbimttd! 16:26:31 <Sacro> oh yes 16:26:37 <Sacro> this disturbs me very sprites 16:27:42 <planetmaker> pbimttd? 16:28:02 <oskari89> After those smooth rivers there will be more requests for diagonal roads :) 16:28:22 <planetmaker> I believe you're right, oskari89 16:28:31 <szaman> diagonal bridges and tunnels would be better 16:29:09 <planetmaker> where are the people who want to take on those tasks? 16:30:27 <szaman> everywhere 16:30:41 <planetmaker> diagonal bridges has a pre-condition: design specs for complete newgrf bridges ;-) 16:30:58 <planetmaker> everywhere? I haven't seen anyone seriously tackling that for long time. Either of those 16:31:45 <szaman> i want to take on those, but have no time/skills 16:33:20 <planetmaker> skills can be aquired 16:33:55 *** Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 16:33:58 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 16:34:05 <planetmaker> wb Alberth 16:34:20 <Alberth> hi hi 16:36:38 <Alberth> nice rivers! 16:37:22 <planetmaker> ty :-) only temperate yet. And the sprites need revision again, too 16:37:29 <szaman> planetmaker is now knowns as niceriversmaker 16:37:52 <planetmaker> seems that my sprite skills are more in the landscape area :-P 16:38:02 <planetmaker> rivers, shores, trees... 16:38:38 <Alberth> I happen to need some trees in the rct game :p 16:38:53 <planetmaker> How usable are OpenTTD's trees? 16:38:56 <Alberth> (although, Z is likely to provide them :p) 16:39:22 <Alberth> scale is a bit wrong probably 16:39:59 <Alberth> szaman: you have the wrong idea about time. Time is not something you have, you make time by not doing something else 16:40:15 <Alberth> ie it is about choice of what you do and not do 16:40:20 <planetmaker> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/opengfx/repository/entry/sprites/png/trees/temperate/tree_wide_19_leaf.gimp.png 16:42:30 <szaman> Alberth: i can't allow not doing things i now do everyday, some little woman depends on those things, for example now its time to bath :P 16:43:19 <Alberth> planetmaker: yeah, scale is a bit wrong: http://freerct.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/sprites_src/objects/1x1/template8bpp64.png :) 16:44:21 <planetmaker> I'd not necessarily think scale is wrong. It's not a big tree then. But rather a big bush. Or a small tree :-) 16:44:37 <planetmaker> Like hazelnut. Or holunder. Or so 16:44:41 <Alberth> :) 16:46:31 <V453000> nut nut 16:46:35 <szaman> but in about 17 years the girl will grow up, and then i will do diagonal bridges and tunnels! 16:47:14 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.75.169] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:47:29 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.75.169] has joined #openttd 16:48:32 <Alberth> szaman: the author of FIRS, CHIPS, and FISH also has kids, and managed to make three great NewGRFs 16:48:41 <planetmaker> is anyone actually still working on any AI? 16:48:45 <Alberth> or four even 16:48:46 <planetmaker> four. HEQS 16:48:52 <planetmaker> :-) 16:49:46 *** Kylie [~kvirc@CPE18593346e177-CM18593346e174.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 16:49:56 <szaman> Alberth: it varies over child, some spleeps 3h during day, and some sleeps 3h round the clock 16:50:19 <Alberth> 3 hours of time for free :p 16:50:27 <Alberth> nah, just kidding :) 16:50:31 <szaman> :] 16:50:47 <Terkhen> hello 16:50:52 <Alberth> hi Terkhen 16:50:53 <frosch123> planetmaker: it looks to me like ais are mostly done 16:50:53 <planetmaker> hello Terkhen 16:51:01 <planetmaker> "done" 16:51:07 <frosch123> there are 3 to 5 which somewhat work 16:51:16 <frosch123> why would anyone need more 16:51:23 <planetmaker> I don't want more 16:51:39 <planetmaker> But I'd like the "somewhat work" to be improved to "work very well" 16:51:39 <frosch123> either you want them for "ambient effects" or for "competition" 16:51:59 <V453000> map cluttering? :P 16:52:03 <planetmaker> the best AI in my game just crashed.... AIAI. It even had train wood service 16:52:06 <frosch123> well, we failed for 3 years to come up with a decent vehicle weight spec :p 16:53:24 <planetmaker> in what context? 16:53:38 <frosch123> ais do not know about vehicle weights 16:53:44 <planetmaker> oh 16:53:53 <frosch123> so they have no idea what vehicle might cope with what hill 16:55:25 <frosch123> there is vehicle weight (empty), cargo weight, power, traktive effort, freight multiplier, slope steepness, acceleration models, .... 16:56:05 <frosch123> the idea was to at least abstractr freight multiplier into the api to increase cargo weight and vehicle weigth or similar 16:56:18 <frosch123> but once you reach max te and slope steepness :p 16:56:18 *** glx [glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 16:56:21 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 16:57:17 <planetmaker> hm. bad :-) 17:01:15 *** Flygon__ [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has joined #openttd 17:04:27 <frosch123> newgrf might be complicated, but ottd game mechanics are even more complicated :) 17:05:13 <frosch123> i would think an ai author would want to request an api function, which he gives a consist with orders, a start track, and the function returns the minimum speed on the route :p 17:08:16 <planetmaker> I sometimes wonder whether "less is more" wouldn't be true with some of our historically grown interfaces 17:08:17 *** Flygon_ [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:08:55 <planetmaker> and to start cutting backward compatibility 17:09:13 <frosch123> nah, everyone sees a different part to be "less" :) 17:09:30 <frosch123> just consider the new features for that 17:09:46 <frosch123> take cargodist on one side, and conditional orders and timetables on the other side :) 17:09:49 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, is it too early to say "i survived this day"? 17:09:56 <planetmaker> yes 17:10:06 <frosch123> some want to play with this, others with that, but both are completely in conflict to each other 17:10:55 <planetmaker> mostly I was thinking indeed about newgrf specs 17:11:17 <planetmaker> it's too complicated to understand them. Not even OpenTTD can tell what they can do 17:11:35 <frosch123> well, the other specs we came up with were not any better :p 17:11:50 <planetmaker> :-) yeah 17:11:51 <frosch123> i think improving nml is the better route 17:12:05 <frosch123> most of the nfo stuff you do not even need 17:12:06 <planetmaker> that won't help consist replacement or AIs :-P 17:12:26 <frosch123> so if you support only the important subset via nml, you already have achieved something 17:12:38 <planetmaker> as NML won't stop vehicles being able to drive 25km/h on 8th May only while carryin coal. But passengers other days 17:12:51 <planetmaker> that's true. Something 17:13:11 <frosch123> well, but noone cares whether consist replacement works with "historic vehicles" 17:13:15 <planetmaker> but we can nowhere rely in OpenTTD that newgrfs use only NML's subset of "sane" features 17:14:04 <frosch123> try to support order refitting and order shunting with cargodist 17:14:25 <planetmaker> that's stuff nightmares are made of 17:14:29 <frosch123> i think the idea that every feature shall work with every feature is ill-formed :p 17:14:34 <frosch123> you cannot achieve that 17:14:55 <frosch123> people play ottd differently, everyone uses a different part 17:14:57 <oskari89> Order shunting? 17:15:06 <frosch123> you can just blame it on the user if some combinations fails to work 17:15:07 <oskari89> Locomotive detaching from wagons? 17:15:18 <oskari89> Outside depot? 17:18:01 <oskari89> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=43972 17:18:19 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it'll probably hurt more tomorrow :p 17:18:28 <oskari89> http://youtu.be/d9d7wfgMTMg 17:19:49 <V453000> refit does the same thing basically 17:19:50 <planetmaker> I don't think frosch meant that. But if you have vehicles capable of autorefit in stations, it's virtually impossible to tell which connections do exist or can exist 17:19:59 <Eddi|zuHause> oskari89: that guy never provided his patch, afaik 17:20:00 <planetmaker> ^ @ oskari89 17:20:15 <oskari89> He didn't 17:20:27 <planetmaker> thus without knowledge of what connections exist for which cargo, cargodist must fail 17:20:29 <oskari89> I hope he does at some point :P 17:21:54 <V453000> I dont think there would be any real way how to use that though 17:22:28 <frosch123> V453000: as long as there are people who arrange hundreds of trains along a 24 hour timetable 17:22:33 <frosch123> there is also space for shunting 17:22:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: the "linker" i wrote for CETS does 3 hacks, 1) introduce the "comment" in the code to decide where headers end, 2) filter out everything before this comment to cut away the duplicate headers, and 3) insert some magic to keep the lifetime of certain IDs over the whole GRF 17:23:43 <Eddi|zuHause> and it kinda relies on NML not rearranging statements very much 17:23:59 <Alberth> :) 17:24:32 <Alberth> you get that by itself with partial compilation 17:24:45 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 17:25:11 <Eddi|zuHause> but the partial compilation would have to deal with the same 3 problems 17:25:11 *** Rikests [~chatzilla@d40a4940.rev.stofanet.dk] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 20.0.1/20130409194949]] 17:25:15 <planetmaker> I actually looked at that very patch today... but I was scared. I likely could not support it, if there are problems. And I'm not in a good position to judge properly how it might fall on NML's feet i nthe future, if it became official 17:26:06 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it's pretty hand-crafted towards CETS, and not easily universally applicable 17:26:57 <Eddi|zuHause> but it was kinda the only way to continue CETS in a sane matter 17:27:08 <V453000> frosch123: I havent yet seen anyone arrange hundreds of trains by timetable nor can i imagine how could that possibly work? every timetable breaks sooner or later by jams/whatever 17:27:09 *** Rikests [~chatzilla@d40a4940.rev.stofanet.dk] has joined #openttd 17:27:22 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: 1 and 2 should not be needed with a proper implementation 17:27:39 <frosch123> V453000: with that kind of timetable there is no sooner or later 17:27:48 <frosch123> all vehicles move deterministically 17:27:56 <V453000> ? :d 17:28:25 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 17:28:28 <V453000> imagine a train gets stuck in traffic for half a year 17:28:30 <V453000> what will it do 17:28:33 <Alberth> hi Zuu 17:28:42 <Zuu> Hello Alberth 17:28:45 <planetmaker> V453000, that won't happen if *every* train is on schedule 17:28:50 <planetmaker> it can't get stuck 17:28:53 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: if you use "full" timetables, trains should not get stuck 17:28:55 <frosch123> http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=166001 <- that patch 17:29:08 <V453000> jams/broken signals/any other issue on the track? 17:29:19 <frosch123> V453000: the timetable arranges the trains in a way they are never stuck 17:29:26 <planetmaker> proper wait times 17:29:40 <planetmaker> so that small disturbances don't escalate 17:29:43 <planetmaker> (like they do in RL) 17:29:46 <V453000> if you have self-blocking signals, then the train is stuck, how does the timetable deal with that : 17:30:00 <frosch123> V453000: every vehicle is timed exactly 17:30:04 <V453000> e.g. your train was stuck for say half a year 17:30:07 <frosch123> it is set up once to work, and then never changes 17:30:15 <V453000> of course 17:30:23 <planetmaker> V453000, of course you can break the network 17:30:26 <frosch123> "stuck for a half year" is non-sense 17:30:32 <V453000> but how does it react to disturbance like slowdowns, jams 17:30:36 <planetmaker> but... that's something you can always do 17:30:36 <frosch123> it either works, or it doe snot work 17:30:39 <frosch123> but it enver changes 17:30:55 <V453000> if your network just starts jamming 17:31:02 <V453000> - which happens every game - 17:31:14 <frosch123> damn, there is no "starts", when everything is timetabled 17:31:28 <V453000> you add trains at some point 17:31:33 <frosch123> V453000: i think you still did not understand that patch 17:31:50 <frosch123> the vehicles are not timetabled one by one 17:31:52 <frosch123> but in total 17:31:54 <Eddi|zuHause> however, besides openttd's current timetables being a pain to set up and manage, big lateness values are problematic, because there is no heuristic when to give up trying to catch up to the timetable. so a 100 day timetable, and 98 days late counter, the train will not try to skip one full round-trip, but instead try 97 days late, 96 days late, etc... 17:32:00 <frosch123> every train is aligned with everyone else 17:32:26 <frosch123> you add one train at a time and configure it's timetable so it does not conflict with any other train 17:32:36 <frosch123> then it keeps on running on exactly that cycle 17:33:33 <V453000> okay, so it is re-calculated after adding every train? 17:33:50 <V453000> and still, even adding just one train does not have instant effect on jams etc 17:33:56 <frosch123> nothing is calculated 17:34:00 <frosch123> it is set up manually 17:35:28 <planetmaker> hm, how do I align different timetables with eachother? 17:35:39 <frosch123> you have a global 24 hour clock 17:35:42 <planetmaker> Just starting the train at the right time / resetting lateness counter? 17:35:53 <frosch123> and you make sure every order list has a length which is a divisor of 24 hours 17:36:03 <V453000> ok, then if I add 100 trains on a certain connection and the connection starts to jam, the travel time is not updated? or? 17:36:15 <frosch123> the 24 hour thingie is just a helper thingie ofc to get natural units 17:36:19 <planetmaker> V453000, no two trains have the same time table 17:36:27 <V453000> doesnt matter 17:36:28 <frosch123> V453000: no, you do not add 10 trains 17:36:32 <V453000> still 100 trains could visit the same station 17:36:36 <V453000> or rail or whatever 17:36:40 <frosch123> you add one train at a time and timetable it so it works 17:36:41 <V453000> 100 individual trains 17:36:50 <planetmaker> yes. But they're schedules by you to not be at the same place and time together 17:36:57 <planetmaker> if you don't do that, you do it wrong 17:37:10 <V453000> sure 17:37:28 <V453000> but what if the "place" where they all meet is a junction, not a station 17:37:34 <V453000> aka a place which is not in the orders but they all visit 17:37:43 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d108-180-70-162.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 17:37:45 <frosch123> they still run the same on every trip 17:37:50 <planetmaker> you see that. As you add them one by one :-) 17:37:57 <frosch123> so you can timetable them so they do not "meet" in junctions 17:38:16 <V453000> they will meet in junctions if you add too many sooner or later 17:38:39 <frosch123> that's just up to you setting up the timetables correctly 17:38:41 <planetmaker> that's when your network is at 100% capacity 17:39:14 <V453000> ok enough, I dont think I should try to understand this type of playing 17:39:28 <planetmaker> drive speed and time is deterministically. thus you can exactly tell whether trains will meet 17:40:10 <V453000> autoreplace == hell ? 17:41:02 <planetmaker> likely 17:41:14 <planetmaker> unless you schedule depot visits in the time table anyway 17:41:26 <V453000> more like about the updated stats of the new train 17:41:39 <planetmaker> limit speed in orders 17:41:53 <V453000> the new train can also be slower :P 17:42:00 <planetmaker> or by wagon speed limit. 17:42:45 <frosch123> http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=166727 <- V453000: there are different ways to play the game 17:42:54 <frosch123> coop tries to make it complex in some way 17:43:04 <frosch123> other people do it by increasing the micro management 17:43:47 <V453000> holyfuck 17:43:58 <V453000> well I know, but I wouldnt say this is less complex than normal playing 17:44:16 *** Dark-Ace-Z [~BillyMays@50.107.54.92] has joined #openttd 17:44:18 <planetmaker> of course not. And no-one claimed so 17:44:29 <frosch123> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=63721 <- i never succeeded in reading that :) 17:44:48 <planetmaker> omg... wall of text 17:45:12 <frosch123> yeah, but the screenshot is cool :) 17:45:38 <Zuu> Ah, a graphical time table :-) 17:45:45 <frosch123> but it needs a special kind of people to play with that 17:46:25 <V453000> I still love the word zug 17:46:40 <V453000> almost as lovely as the one for frog 17:47:09 <frosch123> if you say "zug" like that, it sounds like you mean inhaling drugs 17:47:25 <V453000> I know how to pronounce it :) 17:48:00 *** DarkAce-Z [~BillyMays@50.107.54.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:48:35 <planetmaker> I think that patch might give a total kick to some people 17:48:54 <V453000> in what way? :D 17:49:04 <planetmaker> "omg, must have!" 17:49:19 <planetmaker> those realism people 17:49:25 <V453000> well some people are weird :P 17:49:27 <oskari89> I think that is !!!! 17:49:35 <oskari89> On good way :) 17:49:45 <oskari89> Wants :) 17:49:53 <V453000> this is R like hell 17:50:13 <planetmaker> oh, it can likely even be fun to timetalbe the map accurately and efficiently 17:50:26 <oskari89> Yes it is 17:50:26 <planetmaker> SRNW is a piece of cake in comparison :-P 17:51:40 *** Elukka [Elukka@a91-152-213-89.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd 17:51:51 <oskari89> That plus daylength is something awesome :) 17:52:28 <Alberth> so you can play in real time as well :) 17:52:50 <planetmaker> :D 18:04:27 <Eddi|zuHause> <V453000> well some people are weird :P <-- says a person in an IRC channel dedicated to a train game 18:07:18 <frosch123> yeah, don't talk to people who are not here 18:07:22 *** ntx [~ntx@dsl-hkibrasgw3-58c027-185.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:09:17 *** ntx [~ntx@dsl-hkibrasgw3-58c027-185.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 18:33:05 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.75.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:34:27 <Rikests> Any way to change NewGRF parameters in saves? 18:35:17 <Alberth> nope 18:40:53 <Mazur> I is weird. 18:41:33 <Mazur> Rikests, only with a time-machine. 18:41:48 <Mazur> Perhaps you can borrow one from a friend. 18:42:09 <Rikests> alright 18:47:58 <Eddi|zuHause> "the impossible just takes a bit longer" 18:48:29 *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@46-239-219-51.tal.is] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 18:55:01 *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@46-239-219-51.tal.is] has joined #openttd 19:05:44 *** parkette [~pjm@apn-77-112-162-101.dynamic.gprs.plus.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:06:06 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has joined #openttd 19:21:22 *** Rikests is now known as Rieksts 19:36:45 *** Dark-Ace-Z is now known as DarkAceZ 19:44:59 *** Rieksts [~chatzilla@d40a4940.rev.stofanet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:47:52 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 19:48:38 <Wolf01> ho ho ho.. no, wrong time 19:54:47 <Alberth> hi hi 19:55:06 <Alberth> practising never hurts :) 20:06:21 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.64.51] has joined #openttd 20:17:33 <planetmaker> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=52396&start=100#p1076800 <-- anyone wants to provide some translation? 20:18:23 <Wolf01> >_> 20:18:59 <Wolf01> newobjects patch 2, the revenge? 20:19:14 *** sla_ro|master [~slamaster@89.137.75.224] has quit [Quit: connection reset by myself] 20:19:22 <Wolf01> or just a grf? 20:19:30 <planetmaker> It's a landscape grf 20:19:36 <planetmaker> with some NewObjects 20:20:14 <planetmaker> exactly four to be precise 20:21:43 <Alberth> perhaps add a <p> before 'English' in the translation output? 20:21:53 <planetmaker> yes, likely :-) 20:22:07 <planetmaker> when my repo is in a less modified state :-) 20:22:20 <planetmaker> though... it's a single file I don't touch... yes 20:22:44 <Alberth> discover the concept 'local clone' :) 20:22:50 <planetmaker> :-) 20:23:20 <planetmaker> or commit and ammend. and unnamed branches :-) 20:23:34 <Alberth> so many strings for a landscape newgrf! :o 20:23:46 <planetmaker> parameters. parameters :-) 20:26:03 <Alberth> good night 20:26:30 <planetmaker> good night 20:26:39 *** Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 20:28:46 <Supercheese> [url]nightly builds[/url] 20:28:47 <Supercheese> broken url 20:28:54 <Supercheese> or rather, no url specified 20:29:08 <planetmaker> yeah, fixed 20:29:22 <Supercheese> :) 20:29:35 <Supercheese> also [url]changed since[/url] 20:30:25 <planetmaker> also, yes :-) ty 20:30:31 <Supercheese> you're welcome :) 20:41:19 <Terkhen> good night 20:43:32 <planetmaker> g'night Terkhen 20:49:55 *** Nat_aS [~nat@00179a279bbd.click-network.com] has joined #openttd 20:50:34 *** Dr_Tan [~nat@00179a279bbd.click-network.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:54:28 *** KouDy [~KouDy@188.75.190.58] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:37:36 *** oskari89 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 21:38:10 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:40:29 <planetmaker> g'night 21:42:03 *** Djohaal [~Djohaal@189.58.11.85.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #openttd 21:47:25 *** parkette [~pjm@apn-77-112-162-101.dynamic.gprs.plus.pl] has joined #openttd 21:50:08 <Wolf01> 'night 21:50:15 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 21:59:53 *** Biolunar__ [~mahdi@blfd-4db0e54f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: My life for Aiur] 22:25:24 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-4d00865b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:26:13 *** Alice3 [~Alice@cpc18-grim14-2-0-cust478.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 22:31:01 *** Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 22:55:33 *** LANJesus [~WOOAARGH@advisoryalerts.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:40:09 *** HellTiger [~HellTiger@43-54.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/]