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00:41:59 <Eddi|zuHause> to continue the random startrekness: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewPJflCmPMc :p 00:51:30 *** Djohaal [~Djohaal@189.58.11.85.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:33:11 *** gelignite [~gelignite@i528C3176.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: http://bit.ly/nkczDT] 01:57:15 *** glx [glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Bye !] 02:13:41 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 02:13:44 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ 02:18:05 *** Extrems [borgs@24.157.137.219] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:18:48 *** Markavian` [~Markavian@78-105-168-146.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 02:19:37 *** Extrems [borgs@24.157.137.219] has joined #openttd 02:19:45 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-14-42.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:26:00 *** Markavian [~Markavian@78-105-168-146.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:26:48 *** argonel [~argkde4@00019d48.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 02:51:11 *** pugi_ [~pugi@dyndsl-095-033-246-043.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 02:57:08 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-010-234.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:57:09 *** pugi_ is now known as pugi 03:28:55 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6AF60.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:29:40 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-095-033-246-043.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:43:06 *** Rieksts [~chatzilla@0x55530c4a.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #openttd 04:53:51 *** Rieksts [~chatzilla@0x55530c4a.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:56:01 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD55B1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] 04:56:15 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p5DC66912.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 05:24:23 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@90.193.88.212] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:25:07 *** roadt__ [~roadt@114.96.135.50] has joined #openttd 05:31:12 *** roadt_ [~roadt@114.96.135.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:37:40 *** Extrems [borgs@24.157.137.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:01:36 *** sla_ro|master [~slamaster@89.137.75.224] has joined #openttd 06:06:42 *** kais58 [~kais58@cpc2-cwma8-2-0-cust293.7-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 06:08:28 *** kais58_ [~kais58@cpc2-cwma8-2-0-cust293.7-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:13:04 <planetmaker> @ports 06:13:04 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound) 06:13:45 <V453000> iz a lie, firs has ports 06:13:58 <planetmaker> stooopid lies indeed 06:25:35 *** Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 06:50:24 <argonel> i took a look at the wiki todo list and came up with this: http://wstaw.org/m/2013/05/10/plasma-desktopFs4776.png - beyond the abused strings, does this seem like a good direction? 06:54:15 <planetmaker> argonel, is there a reason to not want any of the explicit orders? 06:55:11 <argonel> planetmaker: well, fs4540 has a sample with more than a screen's height of implicit orders 06:55:32 <planetmaker> of course. I do not talk about the implicit orders. Toggling those makes sense 06:55:55 <argonel> heh sorry, is late here 06:56:33 <argonel> planetmaker: i don't know of any reason to not have the explicit orders, but i didn't want to make a dropdown with only one item in it 06:56:41 <planetmaker> and what does your screenshot look like when the drop-down is collapsed? Do I know my current choice of visible elements? 06:57:29 <argonel> it's true that it doesn't provide any "current state" feedback, however the state is per window instance 06:57:58 <planetmaker> what about a two-state switch where the text can remain on the button: 06:58:03 <planetmaker> Explicit orders 06:58:05 <planetmaker> All orders 06:58:25 <argonel> sounds reasonable 06:59:11 <argonel> planetmaker: do you have an opinion on the implicit orders lacking a number? 06:59:54 <planetmaker> that makes sense. If you use conditional orders, you use order numbers there. As implicit orders change, it would break other wise conditional orders 07:00:20 <planetmaker> i.e.: giving implict orders a number breaks conditional orders. 07:00:25 <planetmaker> Or so I believe without looking at code 07:01:09 <planetmaker> at least changing numbers of the explicit orders would pose a hassle in the UI: imagine the order number changing while you give orders 07:03:37 <V453000> problem is, when you get into trouble with implicit orders, you probably already have 255 of them 07:03:54 <V453000> which means you need to remove them, hiding is of course nice, but still does not help with order editing 07:04:11 <V453000> if there could be a way to disable them entirely, that would be absolutely splendid 07:04:14 <planetmaker> yes. That's true. But a slightly different problem :-) 07:04:29 <V453000> sure, but it is very related, and the "real" fix to the issue 07:04:34 <argonel> hmm, i could add a "flush implicit orders" action 07:04:37 <planetmaker> I would not disable them. But I would add a button like 'clear implicit orders' 07:04:42 <argonel> ^ 07:04:53 <V453000> or at least that :) 07:05:05 <argonel> you want that as another button? 07:05:33 <planetmaker> disabling them entirely is pointless, I think. It's a visual feedback of vehicles unscheduled past station visits after all 07:05:36 <V453000> I guess adding it to a dropdown does not really make sense 07:05:49 <planetmaker> probably a new button makes sense, yes 07:05:57 <Rubidium> V453000: use non-stop orders as default and you won't get those implicit ones 07:06:01 <argonel> i was hoping to be able to make the Show button smaller so that it wouldn't consume so much of the titlebar, but i'm not quite certain how to do that yet :) 07:06:12 <V453000> Rubidium: I do, but in some cases you do want to use stop orders 07:06:21 <planetmaker> argonel, by using concise but still clear wording :-P 07:06:28 <planetmaker> (I don't see how to make it smaller either) 07:06:29 <V453000> in which case you are well aware that trains could stop elsewhere and do not want to get "informed" by implicit orders 07:06:46 <planetmaker> use the 'hide' option then :-) 07:07:03 <planetmaker> the selection of 'hide' vs. 'show' as argonel shows could be universal 07:07:09 <planetmaker> client-side variable 07:07:16 <Rubidium> oh, you mean: "do not use implicit order, and disable cargod[ie]st" ;) 07:07:50 <V453000> hide is okay but the problem is when you need to really look at the order, you probably also need to edit them. If there are 255 and constantly generating (possibly very quickly with many trains) orders, it makes it impossible to edit without stopping all trains to prevent the creation of new 07:08:21 <argonel> sounds like that limit needs to be raised :) 07:08:34 <V453000> not really, it would fill any limit sooner or later 07:09:09 <V453000> hm I did not know about relevance to cargodist, but still ... okay, the option could be only for non-cargodist games 07:09:20 <planetmaker> V453000, 100% relevance 07:09:27 <planetmaker> without them it cannot work at all 07:09:31 <V453000> sure, I just wasnt aware 07:09:50 <argonel> fonsinchen mentions cargodist in the br, where he indicates he doesn't want this in the gui at all 07:10:18 <V453000> which does not put aside the problem that implicit orders are massively disruptive anytime you use stop orders on purpose 07:10:41 * Rubidium reckons that more than 50% of what used to be in the cargodist patches has already been committed to trunk 07:10:52 <planetmaker> even then they're not disruptive really. Only in a few edge cases 07:11:01 <argonel> i'm at a bit of a disadvantage, i don't know what cargodist is :) 07:11:35 <planetmaker> :-) doesn't exactly matter here, argonel. But a (future) extension which gives cargos upon pickup a destination it wants to be delivered to 07:11:42 <V453000> edge cases are every time you use any idea or sort of self-regulation .... and note that this does not mean complex srnw, but anything along the lines of people releasing trains to visit whatever station they want, can be in town networks etc 07:12:01 <planetmaker> V453000, self-regulation is playing the system. It is itself VERY edge-case 07:13:07 <V453000> it is playing the game 07:13:27 <V453000> if edge case means using all game features, yes it is edge case 07:13:32 <Rubidium> self regulating doesn't need orders at all, right? 07:13:37 <V453000> not true 07:13:43 <planetmaker> it needs orders. But only one, Rubidium 07:13:53 <Rubidium> how can it be self regulating then? 07:13:55 <V453000> in fact most modern self regulation does use various amount of orders, from one to ~many 07:14:09 <planetmaker> Rubidium, by using signaling. And a feed-back look 07:14:11 <V453000> that depends on how it is made 07:14:24 <planetmaker> s/look/loop/ 07:14:41 <V453000> http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/SRNW very updated page, if you want to see latest progress there 07:14:47 <Rubidium> planetmaker: but if you *order* it to do something, it's not *self* regulating anymore 07:15:33 <V453000> most notably single unreachable waypoint which is an order train never reaches, but due to pathfinding towards the waypoint trains can be guided to go to the right directions 07:15:46 <V453000> in which case implicit orders never reset 07:15:48 <argonel> so iiuc there's a problem where implicit orders are added while you're trying to work on the list, which could result in being unable to add another order? and they could be added at a rate where a "clear implicit orders" action could still leave an uneditable orders list? 07:16:09 <planetmaker> argonel, yes, in rare cases that can happen. Then it's a PITA 07:16:25 <V453000> exactly 07:16:42 <V453000> if you have 1500 shared order trains, implicit orders can appear at incredible rate 07:16:44 <planetmaker> but I doubt that it would be spawned at a rate that a general "clear implicit orders" button would not suffice 07:17:06 <V453000> it would suffice in order not to make the list full, but that does not mean it would suffice for sane editing 07:17:41 <argonel> so lets say that implicit orders are hidden, how about having the add order actions causing a clear? 07:17:42 <planetmaker> solution probably would to disallow filling orders list completely by implicit orders and keeping always one free slot for manual ones 07:18:16 <V453000> in combination with hiding, yes 07:18:38 <V453000> that would indeed be a valid solution ... did not think of that :) good idea 07:18:54 <planetmaker> argonel, however, the hiding/showing of the implicit orders is one problem. Totally unrelated to this IMHO. Thus need be a separate patch in any case 07:19:18 <planetmaker> maybe not totally. But still distinct ;-) 07:19:34 <argonel> planetmaker: hmm, imo this problem causes a surprising behaviour 07:19:36 <planetmaker> I would not mind, if you address this one, too, of course :-) 07:19:48 <planetmaker> argonel, what's causing surprising behaviour? 07:20:00 <planetmaker> not filling the orders entirely by implicit ones? 07:20:03 <argonel> order list filling while implicit orders are hidden 07:20:20 <planetmaker> I don't think it would 07:20:29 <planetmaker> where does it hurt? 07:20:30 <argonel> then you go to add an order and can't, even though the box apparently shows enough room 07:20:46 <planetmaker> yes. But you chose explicitly "hide implicit" 07:21:08 <planetmaker> it's like "I don't see houses" - "oh, you disabled showing houses" 07:21:12 <argonel> btw, my patch does not renumber the orders, it lies about the order number in the gui 07:21:16 <V453000> I agree with pm there 07:21:47 <Rubidium> alternatively one implicit order is sacrifised ("at random") for an explicit order 07:21:52 <planetmaker> uh. hm. argonel test that with conditional orders then 07:22:03 <planetmaker> it will be a pain to not be able to tell where to jump to 07:22:12 <planetmaker> Rubidium, yes. 07:22:20 <argonel> planetmaker: ok, i'll add that to the todo list 07:22:47 <argonel> i've had to copy stuff from all over the place for the PoC 07:23:29 <planetmaker> easy test setup: train line with two mines and a power plant or steel mill (depends on mine): 07:23:54 <planetmaker> set train to unload at power plant 07:23:56 <planetmaker> goto mine 1 07:24:08 <planetmaker> if load% > 80 goto 1 07:24:14 <planetmaker> goto mine 2 07:24:27 <planetmaker> thus return to power plant, if (nearly) full. otherwise also pickup from other mine 07:24:42 <planetmaker> and add a few other mines on the line 07:24:50 <planetmaker> or stations in general. need not be mines 07:24:57 <planetmaker> use goto orders, not goto non-stop 07:25:09 <Supercheese> I should make my seagull newobjects go "mine mine mine mine mine" 07:25:12 <Supercheese> :P 07:25:18 <planetmaker> :-P 07:25:28 <argonel> haha 07:25:30 <Supercheese> New April Fool's/OTTD 1.4.0 joke 07:25:33 <Supercheese> :D 07:25:34 <planetmaker> hm... Supercheese what do you think of adding those to ogfx-landscape? 07:25:43 *** namad7 [~aaaaa@pool-96-236-139-72.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 07:25:45 <Supercheese> What license is it? 07:25:51 <planetmaker> gpl v2+ 07:26:09 <Supercheese> Probably won't work, the sprites are derived from another game's 07:26:16 <planetmaker> ah, k. pity 07:26:20 <Supercheese> I don't think that'd be compatible with GPL 07:26:45 <Supercheese> In fact, MB had the exact same idea I did many years ago 07:26:53 <Supercheese> he had some seagulls derived from the same sprites 07:26:54 <planetmaker> ? 07:27:00 <Supercheese> lemme dig the post 07:27:16 <V453000> Supercheese: 1st April is the only day when the real serious newGRFs are introduced :P 07:27:16 <planetmaker> oh, so same source, eh? :-) 07:27:20 <Supercheese> yep 07:27:58 <Supercheese> Apparently the New cargo types (v0.12) grf 07:28:03 <Supercheese> http://www.ttdpatch.net/newgrf/201/newcargow.zip 07:28:14 <Supercheese> Fishing grounds has same seagulls 07:28:19 <planetmaker> cargo: sea gull? :-p 07:28:58 *** namad7 [~aaaaa@pool-96-236-139-72.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 07:29:56 <Supercheese> sprites â60-76 it seems 07:30:05 <planetmaker> :-) 07:30:21 <Supercheese> I never knew until he pointed out the striking similarity 07:30:44 <Supercheese> great minds think alike? ;) 07:31:30 <Supercheese> I'm giving myself too much credit, mb's been at this for years and produces damn fine grfs 07:31:48 <Supercheese> I wouldn't be "great" in comparison :P 07:32:14 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d108-180-70-162.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: DDR is not Dance Dance Revolution.] 07:32:50 <planetmaker> great. not great. It just matters what people actually do. A single deed is not lesser or more due to a person's past. 07:34:05 <V453000> thee deed shall perform newgrf mayhem causing process in 07:36:47 <argonel> planetmaker: yeah, so indeed i have to tell the same lie on conditional orders 07:36:58 <Supercheese> anyway, Fairey Rotodyne .grf, should the Rotodyne cruise level or nose down slightly? See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairey_Rotodyne 07:37:27 <Supercheese> would be easy-ish to make nose-down renders, but less work to have it cruise level 07:38:00 <planetmaker> :-) Depends on your personal judgement of where to draw the line to tmwftlb 07:38:10 <argonel> http://wstaw.org/m/2013/05/10/plasma-desktopuV4776.png 07:38:11 <Supercheese> I love the way Av8 does helicopters 07:38:31 <Supercheese> But of course the rotodyne is not your average helicopter 07:38:41 <planetmaker> argonel, I'd put the current selection in the button title 07:38:44 <planetmaker> Show: All 07:38:47 <planetmaker> Show: Explicit 07:38:56 <planetmaker> but looks good 07:38:57 <argonel> i haven't gotten around to adding strings yet 07:39:03 <planetmaker> ah :-) k 07:39:21 <planetmaker> are time tables gone? 07:39:33 <argonel> gone? 07:40:11 <argonel> oh i see, implicit orders have implicit timetable items 07:40:49 <planetmaker> I meant the timetable button. But I didn't yet think about the interaction with time tabling 07:41:30 <argonel> no, the timetable button is there, i just clipped that last screenshot 07:41:48 <argonel> at the moment timetable mode doesn't have a show button 07:53:57 *** Pensacola [~quassel@h220216.upc-h.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 08:01:00 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1A7D4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 08:01:20 <argonel> planetmaker: do i need to worry about the order list changing while in DrawWidget? 08:02:06 <planetmaker> well. The current client might not be the only one to modify order list 08:02:54 <planetmaker> but those events should invalidate the window data 08:03:29 <argonel> hmm. is there a lock i can hold? 08:04:05 <planetmaker> no, you cannot. 08:04:08 <argonel> hmm 08:04:16 <planetmaker> otherwise the drawing of the window would stop the game 08:04:48 <planetmaker> hm... but I wonder whether that's an issue... I'm not exactly sure about scheduling of events 08:04:57 <planetmaker> don't worry about that for now 08:08:29 *** Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 08:08:32 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 08:08:55 <Alberth> moin 08:09:04 <planetmaker> hi Alberth 08:12:21 *** tycoondemon [~sm0ck@ip503d7ac1.speed.planet.nl] has quit [] 08:12:43 <Alberth> one of the great things about a (mostly) single threaded application is that no other threads cause havoc in data you're processing 08:12:58 <planetmaker> was about to ask you ^ 08:14:05 <argonel> excellent 08:14:49 <Alberth> So you may be drawing a list that is obsolete at the server, but the change event is still in the pipeline to the list. 08:15:09 <Alberth> when it arrives the window will be invalidated as PM said, and you draw it again 08:22:42 <argonel> hmm, you can set a conditional to go to an implicit rule 08:22:59 <planetmaker> oh lala. Sounds like a bear trap 08:23:35 <planetmaker> personally I consider that as a bug 08:24:08 <planetmaker> maybe even with the potential to crash... at least when the idea to remove an implicit order in favour of a manual one is implemented 08:26:58 <argonel> it seems that if there's a conditional jump, implicit orders are not added 08:30:24 *** TrueBrain [~truebrain@ip82-139-82-247.lijbrandt.net] has quit [Quit: reboot] 08:32:46 *** tycoondemon [~sm0ck@ip503d7ac1.speed.planet.nl] has joined #openttd 08:35:02 *** oskari89 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 08:41:45 <Supercheese> good night 08:42:12 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 20.0.1/20130409194949]] 08:43:33 *** TrueBrain [~truebrain@ip82-139-82-247.lijbrandt.net] has joined #openttd 08:51:26 *** Flygon [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has joined #openttd 08:51:27 *** Flygon__ [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:54:41 *** Tvel [~Thunderbi@212.36.5.170] has joined #openttd 09:09:53 *** Pensacola [~quassel@h220216.upc-h.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:12:11 <argonel> er, sometimes 09:13:56 <Rubidium> argonel/planetmaker: during DrawWidget the orders can't change (unless you do something stupid in the order list window code) 09:14:04 <Rubidium> (stupid like changing orders) 09:14:25 <argonel> Rubidium: thanks for the confirmation, i wasn't sure how multithreaded it is 09:15:39 <argonel> it seems jumps inhibit implicit orders unless there's a depot in the orders 09:16:09 <Rubidium> OpenTTD is in theory multithreaded, but in practice not as much as people would like 09:17:35 <Rubidium> the game loop, with all game logic like handling commands (building stuff etc) and progressing in time, and the drawing to memory are done sequentially for every tick 09:17:57 <Rubidium> in a parallel loop the memory that is drawn to is pushed to the video card 09:18:06 <Rubidium> in another parallel loop the sound playback is done 09:19:17 <Rubidium> in yet another parallel thread the savegame *compressions* are done (creating a memory clone is done in the main loop, and that's the short hiccup with large game states; the slower progression of time on single core is the compression) 09:20:15 <Rubidium> then there's also a thread spawned for every DNS lookup (these can take a while, to it's somewhat fire and let the callback handle the remaining things that need to be done) 09:20:40 *** Pensacola [~quassel@h220216.upc-h.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 09:21:35 <Rubidium> for cargodist there's also a (number of?) thread(s?) that calculates the distribution graph 09:22:43 <Rubidium> and before someone comes with the great idea that the game loop can be multithreaded; all vehicles depend on some place or another on eachother. If you multithread, then those interactions must happen in the same order in ALL imaginable cases (due to network play) 09:23:19 *** __ln___ is now known as __ln__ 09:24:28 <Rubidium> for example, doing train and road vehicle movements next to eachother. Imagine two threads; one for trains and one for road vehicles. Furthermore a road vehicle is about to be crashed on a level crossing 09:24:55 <peter1138> everyone loves desyncs 09:25:09 <Rubidium> on single core computer A the train thread runs before the road vehicle thread. Train #2 moves, goes over the road vehicle and splut... dead road vehicle occupants 09:26:13 <Rubidium> on dual core computer B the train thread and road vehicle thread run in parallel. While train #1 is moved, the road vehicle that train #2 crashes in on computer A moves off the level crossing. Now train #2 moves and noone dies 09:27:26 <Alberth> looks like wiki page material :) 09:30:30 <argonel> Alberth: a condensed version is already there 09:30:50 <Alberth> k 09:31:27 <argonel> although someone wrote a comment starting with "This is a naive way of thinking about multithreading support" in response 09:38:12 <planetmaker> got a link to that page, argonel ? 09:39:16 <argonel> planetmaker: http://wiki.openttd.org/Rejected_features#Multithread.2FMulticore_support 09:39:57 <Alberth> people have a hard time understanding that a simulated world and real world are very different things 09:40:23 <planetmaker> ty 09:40:59 *** Pol [~quassel@h220216.upc-h.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 09:41:16 <planetmaker> Alberth, simulation and threading does not exclude eachother. Deterministicallity kills it 09:43:21 <Alberth> I believe people interpret the OpenTTD in the same way as they experience the real world, ie many independent vehicles. Then they find it is not implemented that way, and are flabbergasted by it 09:43:37 <planetmaker> yeah :-) 09:44:00 <planetmaker> if you don't know how something work, assume it works like you know from somewhere else :-) 09:44:10 <Alberth> no way you're going to explain to these people this is technically the best solution 09:45:32 <Alberth> which thus leads to the inevitable conclusion that devs are idiots :p 09:45:44 <planetmaker> :-P 09:46:00 <peter1138> ah "computationally expensive algorithms" 09:46:09 <peter1138> intensive, rather 09:46:12 <peter1138> we don't really have that 09:46:27 <peter1138> it's just very many lots of tiny ones 09:47:04 <Alberth> just add YACD :p 09:47:42 <Alberth> but then it's so big you run out of CPU time very fast :) 09:47:45 *** Pensacola [~quassel@h220216.upc-h.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:48:20 <planetmaker> that's where a client-server architecture with calculations server-side would be handy. On the cost of HUGE traffic 09:49:24 *** sla_ro|master [~slamaster@89.137.75.224] has quit [Quit: connection reset by myself] 09:49:41 <Alberth> I still believe we are doing something wrong there, you should be able to re-use results from previous computations 09:49:51 <Alberth> or do things in a more incremental way 09:50:10 <planetmaker> in path finding? 09:50:18 <planetmaker> or...? 09:50:39 <Alberth> path finding cargo packets afaik 09:51:09 <planetmaker> like a check "route still exists ? re-use old : calculate new" ? 09:51:45 <Alberth> I wish I knew :) 09:51:47 <planetmaker> but that only pushes the problem... to keep a network of possible connections for all stations 09:53:00 <Alberth> having mis-routed cargo for a while is not a real problem imho, so you may be able to trade speed against accuracy in some way 09:53:58 <Alberth> eg do constant route calculations (a small part at every tick) and update every now and then 09:54:55 <Alberth> or do incremental routing, ie "take that train in the right direction" is all you need to know at a given station, computing the entire path is quite wasteful 09:55:10 <Alberth> but alas, you need the latter to get the former :( 10:07:13 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-095-033-246-043.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 10:32:43 *** HellTiger [~HellTiger@43-54.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #openttd 10:39:28 <Rubidium> Alberth: there's one major problem with "route still exists ? reuse old : calculate new". It doesn't do balancing, so anything with feedbacks like link saturation calculations won't work 10:40:25 <Rubidium> which'll cause many "bug reports" of the like: that link A-B-C is way over its capacity, so I build a new route direction A-C but it does not use that link 10:40:55 <Alberth> true 10:41:28 <Alberth> which seems like an opportunity to trade optimality against speed 10:41:37 <planetmaker> :-) 10:43:42 <Rubidium> also... the real world... that's just bullshit. If I understand quantum mechanics correctly, stuff exists in two states and upon interaction (bumping, looking, whatever) one state is forced. However, this could imply that both states exists and one state is just thrown away (or viewed as if it were a whole new universe) 10:44:38 <Rubidium> so the reason it works in "the real world" is because you are *effectively* in single player; there is no second universe trying to do the exact same things 10:45:31 *** oskari89 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 10:47:24 <Alberth> :) 11:01:00 *** Pulec [pulec@unaffilated.amunak.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:01:47 *** roadt_ [~roadt@60.168.94.177] has joined #openttd 11:09:00 *** roadt__ [~roadt@114.96.135.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:26:39 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fc921.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 11:27:14 *** ToBeFree [~tobefree@00019d36.user.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:35:45 *** Ristovski [~rafael@78.157.7.34] has joined #openttd 11:38:50 *** Pulec [pulec@unaffilated.amunak.net] has joined #openttd 11:40:23 *** Pulec [pulec@unaffilated.amunak.net] has quit [] 11:41:25 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6C784.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 11:42:24 *** Pulec [pulec@unaffilated.amunak.net] has joined #openttd 11:47:44 <__ln__> http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/110487/my-customer-wants-me-to-record-a-video-of-how-i-develop-his-software-product 11:54:49 <frosch123> let's add that to our patch review process 11:55:30 <peter1138> nice 11:57:24 *** ToBeFree [~tobefree@00019d36.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 12:02:52 *** Rieksts [~chatzilla@d40a4438.rev.stofanet.dk] has joined #openttd 12:25:03 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@90.193.88.212] has joined #openttd 13:19:39 <planetmaker> http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/curvy_rivers.png 13:24:22 <szaman> beautiful 13:25:20 <Alberth> tasty! 13:25:24 *** oskari89 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 13:26:06 *** ntoskrnl [~not@a91-153-231-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd 13:26:35 *** oskari892 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 13:27:09 <planetmaker> available when DevZone's compile farm runs tonight :-) 13:28:04 <planetmaker> currently only in ogfx+landscape. But eventually I'll port / copy it to OpenGFX itself 13:32:21 *** Tvel [~Thunderbi@212.36.5.170] has quit [Quit: Tvel] 13:41:55 *** Flygon_ [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has joined #openttd 13:42:32 *** Flygon [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:43:40 *** Tvel [~Thunderbi@212.36.5.170] has joined #openttd 13:46:32 *** Tvel [~Thunderbi@212.36.5.170] has quit [] 13:58:21 *** oskari892 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 14:31:11 * Alberth cheats and builds a trunk version 14:31:47 <planetmaker> :D 14:32:21 <planetmaker> I can make it easier for you... devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/ogfx-landscape.tar 14:32:39 <planetmaker> ^ Alberth 14:32:41 <Terkhen> hello 14:32:43 <planetmaker> hi Terkhen 14:32:45 <Terkhen> that screenshot is awesome :) 14:32:45 <oskari89> planetmaker: The rivers? 14:32:50 <planetmaker> yes 14:32:54 <oskari89> :)) 14:33:02 <Alberth> thanks 14:33:14 <planetmaker> needs gimp to build currently :-) 14:33:29 <Alberth> I have gimp :) 14:33:31 <planetmaker> and creating all those pngs also takes a bit time 14:33:39 <oskari89> planetmaker: Those rivers in current trunk? 14:33:48 <planetmaker> in ogfx-landscape 14:33:55 <oskari89> Ok 14:33:57 <planetmaker> they will be in opengfx 14:34:08 <planetmaker> I will not modify TTD sprites 14:34:13 <oskari89> Ok 14:34:20 <Alberth> I have time, I have to edit a bit of Python code anyway :) 14:34:57 <planetmaker> if I created TTD sprites I'd never be allowed to distribute them anyway. So pointless 14:35:34 *** sla_ro|master [~slamaster@89.137.75.224] has joined #openttd 14:41:24 <Alberth> it helps if you enable rivers when generating a new game :p 14:44:48 <planetmaker> quite :-P 14:57:32 <Alberth> hmm, the refit window has an 'unfold' graphic even if there is just one option 14:58:53 <frosch123> tricky 14:59:28 *** KritiK [~Maxim@0001264a.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 14:59:47 <frosch123> i think currently it display only those refit options which apply to all wagons 15:00:08 <frosch123> while the parent node always mean "keep current subtype" 15:00:20 <frosch123> but, well, the former thing needs to change anyway 15:04:05 *** KouDy [~KouDy@188.75.190.58] has joined #openttd 15:12:14 <Belugas> hello 15:15:40 *** Rieksts [~chatzilla@d40a4438.rev.stofanet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:26:13 *** kais58_ [~kais58@cpc2-cwma8-2-0-cust293.7-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 15:27:56 *** kais58 [~kais58@cpc2-cwma8-2-0-cust293.7-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:29:19 <Alberth> hello 15:30:19 <planetmaker> hello bb10 15:30:25 <planetmaker> hm... hello Belugas :-) 15:40:25 <Belugas> hehehe 15:40:30 <Belugas> hello sir :) 15:40:48 <Belugas> in fact... hello sirs 15:52:53 *** MNIM [~mBuntu@ip5452ffad.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #openttd 15:53:32 *** Alice3 [~Alice@cpc18-grim14-2-0-cust478.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 16:01:56 *** Pulec [pulec@unaffilated.amunak.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:02:34 *** Pulec [pulec@unaffilated.amunak.net] has joined #openttd 16:14:08 *** TheMask96 [martijn@polaris.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 481 seconds] 16:19:20 *** TheMask96 [martijn@polaris.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 17:02:22 *** glx [glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 17:02:25 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 17:15:55 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d108-180-70-162.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 17:18:47 *** roadt_ [~roadt@60.168.94.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:26:19 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has joined #openttd 17:36:52 <oskari89> What is the timezone of OpenTTDcoop? 17:37:07 <oskari89> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/finnishtrainset/nightlies/ 17:37:27 <oskari89> -1 UTC? 17:39:22 <frosch123> unlikely 17:39:48 <frosch123> it's either utc, utc+2 or your local time 17:40:32 <frosch123> it's utc 17:40:38 <frosch123> if it shows 17:19 for r122 17:41:07 <frosch123> brot posted it at 17:19 utc in #openttdcoop.devzone 17:43:51 <oskari89> Ok 17:44:12 *** Pol [~quassel@h220216.upc-h.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:45:55 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25233 trunk/src/lang/galician.txt (2013-05-10 17:45:48 UTC) 17:45:56 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:45:57 <DorpsGek> galician - 15 changes by Michi 18:02:22 *** alluke [~oftc-webi@cs181208223.pp.htv.fi] has joined #openttd 18:02:47 <alluke> evening 18:06:50 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fc921.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:08:42 <Alberth> o/ 18:17:53 *** zeknurn [~sup@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:18:23 <alluke> @juzza1 18:21:28 *** zeknurn [~sup@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 18:22:43 <planetmaker> oskari89, CET 18:22:45 *** Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:22:48 <planetmaker> or CEST 18:23:12 <planetmaker> (i.e. local time Germany) 18:24:10 *** ZxBiohazardZx [~IceChat77@5ED05D6D.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 18:27:03 *** Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 18:28:47 *** zeknurn [~sup@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:29:43 *** zeknurn [~sup@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 18:41:14 *** KenjiE20 [kenjie20@2001:470:dc50:b0::21] has joined #openttd 18:43:38 *** KenjiE20 [kenjie20@2001:470:dc50:b0::21] has quit [] 18:44:19 *** KenjiE20 [kenjie20@2001:470:dc50:b0::21] has joined #openttd 18:48:06 *** sla_ro|master [~slamaster@89.137.75.224] has quit [Quit: connection reset by myself] 18:48:19 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host86-165-37-184.range86-165.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 18:51:09 *** sla_ro|master [~slamaster@89.137.75.224] has joined #openttd 18:54:05 *** andythenorth [~andytheno@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 18:55:08 *** andythenorth [~andytheno@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 18:58:32 *** mindlesstux [~mindlestu@raspberrypi.mindlesstux.com] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 19:01:33 <Rubidium> oh noes... the world has ended 19:02:23 <__ln__> you're mistaken; http://hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet.com/ 19:08:37 *** Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:11:18 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4d08e832.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 19:18:20 <Supercheese> Forums are deeeaaaad 19:18:26 <Supercheese> D: 19:18:39 *** mindlesstux [~mindlestu@raspberrypi.mindlesstux.com] has joined #openttd 19:30:49 *** TWerkhoven [~TWerkhove@cpc10-linl9-2-0-cust80.18-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:31:04 *** TWerkhoven [~TWerkhove@cpc10-linl9-2-0-cust80.18-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:32:33 <ZxBiohazardZx> would it be possible to auto-update client to latest stable? 19:32:43 <ZxBiohazardZx> aka stable -> stable when released 19:33:16 <ZxBiohazardZx> similar to the blizzard streamline launchers: check on a remote server if there is a newer version and update the version to that version after a prompt? 19:33:44 <Supercheese> there's an ottd autoupdater, no? 19:33:52 <Supercheese> 3rd-party-ish 19:34:00 <Supercheese> oh crap forums are dead 19:34:24 <Supercheese> http://users.tt-forums.net/ottdau/ 19:37:07 <ZxBiohazardZx> yeah something like that 19:37:27 <Supercheese> I used it a while ago and it worked well, I haven't used it lately though since I compile custom versions 19:37:38 <ZxBiohazardZx> yeah 19:38:02 <ZxBiohazardZx> most games either update themselfs or warn user they have outdated version & suggest updating before playing 19:38:19 <ZxBiohazardZx> same for steam games, blizzard games, latest activision stuff 19:38:22 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.online.nl] has joined #openttd 19:38:31 <Supercheese> most singleplayer games I play don't have auto-update-checking 19:38:32 <ZxBiohazardZx> most of it warns you ingame that new content is available :P 19:38:42 <V453000> openttd isnt most games :P 19:38:48 <ZxBiohazardZx> ottd is both single and multiplayer :P 19:38:54 <Supercheese> you have to manually check for updates for them, but yeah most online games do autocheck and autoupdate 19:38:58 <ZxBiohazardZx> true 19:39:43 *** Lord_Aro [~LordAro@host81-148-242-22.range81-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 19:45:50 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host86-165-37-184.range86-165.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:46:50 *** Chrill [~chrischri@c83-253-84-230.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #openttd 19:52:11 *** Lord_Aro is now known as LordAro 19:52:25 <orudge> Supercheese: they're not dead, they're just resting 19:52:30 <orudge> also being upgraded 19:52:37 <Supercheese> new phpbb or some such? 19:52:44 <orudge> new Debian version more like 19:52:45 <orudge> :) 19:54:01 *** Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 19:54:02 <planetmaker> wheezy is nice 19:54:24 <planetmaker> though it bitched on this machine. But worked flawless on my other out-of-box 20:11:02 <V453000> lets go spam random shit on forums again \o/ 20:13:40 <Supercheese> huzzah 20:17:17 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.online.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:19:33 *** ntoskrnl [~not@a91-153-231-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:22:58 *** gelignite [~gelignite@i528C328D.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 20:24:04 *** tycoondemon [~sm0ck@ip503d7ac1.speed.planet.nl] has quit [] 20:25:48 *** ZxBiohazardZx [~IceChat77@5ED05D6D.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: For Sale: Parachute. Only used once, never opened, small stain.] 20:28:00 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@5070A0D5.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has joined #openttd 20:33:33 *** tycoondemon [~sm0ck@ip503d7ac1.speed.planet.nl] has joined #openttd 20:39:50 <tycoondemon> so how can I let a server start a random new game, with newgrf settings applied? 20:46:09 <Alberth> experiment, and write a few wiki text about it? 20:52:03 *** Chrill [~chrischri@c83-253-84-230.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [] 20:58:50 *** Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 20:58:58 <tycoondemon> :O 21:00:34 <alluke> @oskari89 im losing my mind thinking how to make the dv15 look less a shortened dv12 21:11:12 <alluke> maybe make the hood lower or wider 21:27:58 *** KouDy [~KouDy@188.75.190.58] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:39:52 * peter1138 mumbles about PDFs that the usual tools (on Linux) can't open. 21:40:13 <peter1138> Had to install the official-but-nobody-ever-uses-it Adobe Reader o_O 21:43:48 *** sla_ro|master [~slamaster@89.137.75.224] has quit [Quit: connection reset by myself] 21:55:16 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 20.0.1/20130409194949]] 22:10:31 *** Lord_Aro [~LordAro@host81-148-242-22.range81-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 22:11:09 <Lord_Aro> Heyo, that works 22:11:18 *** Lord_Aro [~LordAro@host81-148-242-22.range81-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [] 22:22:18 *** perk11 [~perk11@broadband-46-242-13-101.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #openttd 22:22:49 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host81-148-242-22.range81-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:27:23 *** alluke [~oftc-webi@cs181208223.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:35:17 *** DarkAce-Z [~BillyMays@50.107.54.92] has joined #openttd 22:36:01 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:38:40 *** DarkAceZ [~BillyMays@50.107.54.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:43:26 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has joined #openttd 22:47:08 *** Djohaal [~Djohaal@189.58.11.85.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #openttd 23:04:08 *** Ristovski [~rafael@78.157.7.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:09:52 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@5070A0D5.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:26:50 *** Alice3 [~Alice@cpc18-grim14-2-0-cust478.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit []