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00:00:23 *** Dark-Ace-Z [~BillyMays@50.107.53.200] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:02:11 *** Alice3 [~Alice@cpc18-grim14-2-0-cust478.12-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [] 00:05:41 *** TomyLobo [~foo@91-65-113-111-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Standby mode...] 00:16:18 <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> hmm, photographed only three weeks ago <-- yeah, i think there are like 3 operational ones left 00:18:03 *** Progman [~progman@p57A185C2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:18:36 *** Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 00:23:28 *** Elukka [~Elukka@a91-152-213-89.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [] 00:35:44 *** Lord_Aro [~LordAro@sns61-83.york.ac.uk] has joined #openttd 00:35:44 *** LordAro [~LordAro@sns61-83.york.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:42:51 *** KritiK [~Maxim@0001264a.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:45:01 *** MNIM [~mBuntu@ip5452ffad.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #openttd 00:45:05 *** MNIM is now known as MNIM-zZz 00:50:11 *** zydeco [~zydeco@116.69.18.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Miscellaneous hardware exception error] 00:57:50 *** Snail [~jacopocol@cpe-68-175-24-89.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Snail] 01:04:09 *** kero [~keikoz@202.4.69.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #openttd 01:05:16 *** Japa [~Japa@112.79.36.85] has joined #openttd 01:08:20 *** roboboy [~robotboy@0001164c.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 01:12:31 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~flex@i59F6B2B9.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:23:27 *** sturmi [~Sturmi@pD9EB305B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] 01:26:45 *** DDR [~kvirc@184.71.170.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:31:30 *** Lord_Aro [~LordAro@sns61-83.york.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:32:57 *** treaki [75f537ff74@p4FF4BFA4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:33:03 *** treaki [1e11fe0f51@p4FF4BF38.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 01:50:01 *** Snail [~jacopocol@cpe-68-175-24-89.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 01:57:42 *** glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Bye] 01:58:48 *** DarkAce-Z is now known as DarkAceZ 02:08:37 *** roadt [~roadt@60.168.82.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:30:23 *** moki [~moki@rstk-5f76f240.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 02:31:29 *** moki [~moki@rstk-5f76f240.pool.mediaWays.net] has left #openttd [] 02:34:50 <LeandroL> hello everybody 02:35:33 <LeandroL> i've left a game running for the past day or so and no my surprise, I'm being charged with interest in the millions, but my loan has been fully paid off literally centuries ago 02:35:45 <LeandroL> here's a screenshot: 02:35:46 <LeandroL> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1156368/Screenshot%20from%202013-10-28%2022%3A37%3A49.png 02:35:50 <LeandroL> is this a bug? 02:36:11 <LeandroL> i'm running openttd version 1.3.2 02:37:34 <Markk> LeandroL: That's because you're on minus. 02:37:45 <LeandroL> what do you mean? 02:38:04 <Markk> You see that your bank balance are on minus, ye? 02:38:10 <LeandroL> yeah 02:38:21 <LeandroL> having a negative bank balance produces negative interest? 02:38:24 <Markk> That's why you're getting quite an interest. 02:38:29 <Markk> Yes 02:38:35 <LeandroL> i thought you only got interest from your loan 02:38:54 <LeandroL> it obviously makes sense that you have to pay for running on a negative bank balance somehow 02:38:58 <Markk> You're borrowing the money requeried to pay for your trains and infrastructure from the bank. 02:39:01 <Markk> Like in real life. 02:39:04 <LeandroL> yeah 02:39:06 <LeandroL> implicitly 02:39:13 <Markk> So no, it's not a bug. 02:39:19 <LeandroL> thanks for the insight 02:39:20 <Markk> You don't earn enough money. 02:39:24 <Markk> :) 02:39:29 <Markk> No problem. 02:39:36 <LeandroL> at this point there's no way to go back to positive figures, right? 02:39:44 <Japa> Not likely, no. 02:39:57 <Japa> Since the max loan is less than your debt. 02:39:59 <Markk> I'm surprised that you aren't bankrupt yet. 02:40:05 <LeandroL> can you go bankrupt? 02:40:14 <Japa> You could try to sell all your trains or something, maybe 02:40:16 <LeandroL> when and how does that happen? 02:40:27 <LeandroL> i only have two trains and like 10 bus stations with 1 bus each 02:40:34 <Markk> haha 02:40:37 <LeandroL> i was running an experiment on city growth 02:40:38 <Markk> Yeah, there's no change. 02:40:39 <Markk> chanse* 02:40:50 <Markk> chance* 02:40:52 <Markk> Even 02:41:02 <LeandroL> 5 stations per city and just a couple trains to boost my economy initially and make enough money to build a road grid to speed up city growth 02:41:15 <LeandroL> i forgot about it and left the experiment running overnight 02:41:30 <LeandroL> and i came home to a negative bank balance well into the billions 02:41:36 <Japa> Cargodist is great for single-city games. 02:42:55 <LeandroL> here's a whole map screenshot, in case anyone is interested 02:42:56 <LeandroL> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1156368/Drindingstone%20Transport%2C%208th%20Oct%202628.png 02:43:00 <LeandroL> it's a 64x64 map 02:48:24 <Eddi|zuHause> <Markk> I'm surprised that you aren't bankrupt yet. <-- you can only go bankrupt in multiplayer 02:49:57 <LeandroL> Eddi|zuHause: that makes sense, thanks 02:50:32 <LeandroL> ok, different question 02:50:34 *** DDR [~kvirc@S010600254bbe4e1c.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #openttd 02:50:38 <Eddi|zuHause> and in single player there's the money cheat 02:50:49 <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: That's what I thought. 02:50:59 <LeandroL> i've seen there's an autorenew feature that replaces old vehicles with new ones of the same model 02:51:12 <LeandroL> but, is there an autoreplace feature? 02:51:24 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 02:51:25 <LeandroL> something that periodically replaces my vehicles with newer models 02:51:50 <LeandroL> i'm tired of having to replace my old steam locomotives with newer diesel ones by hand 02:51:57 <Eddi|zuHause> in the vehicle list. use the manage list dropdown 02:52:14 <LeandroL> yeah but i mean, i don't want to do that every few hours 02:52:25 <LeandroL> i want to let the game run for days without human intervention 02:52:52 *** roadt [~roadt@60.168.82.47] has joined #openttd 02:52:53 <LeandroL> after a while the old vehicles become unavailable and so the autorenew feature stops working 02:54:14 <LeandroL> am i explaining myself well? 03:03:40 <Eddi|zuHause> ah. so you want to set a rule before the vehicles become available 03:03:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i guess nobody ever felt the need to do that 03:04:06 <Eddi|zuHause> so it's not implemented 03:04:33 <Eddi|zuHause> wouldn't it be easier to just start in 2050 and use the latest vehicle only? 03:12:07 <LeandroL> i found a configuration parameter that makes vehicles be available forever 03:12:54 <LeandroL> it's not exactly what i wanted but it's probably good enough to keep the income stable over a few centuries without manual intervention 03:15:25 <Eddi|zuHause> while at it, also turn inflation off :) 03:17:22 <LeandroL> i'm tempted to, but i'd like to keep the settings as close to the default set as possible 03:18:19 <LeandroL> you're probably right though, eventually the inflated prices will surpass the income generated from the transports 03:18:30 <LeandroL> unless the income also increases with inflation? 03:23:03 <Eddi|zuHause> it does, but at a slower rate 03:23:16 <Eddi|zuHause> after 170 years, they're around factor 5 apart 03:24:41 <Eddi|zuHause> there's no possible way you're going to be able to counter that effect without manual interference 03:25:36 <Eddi|zuHause> like discontinuing short, unprofitable routes 03:36:19 *** kero [~keikoz@202.4.69.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: kero] 03:53:44 *** Japa [~Japa@112.79.36.85] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:35:52 *** Snail [~jacopocol@cpe-68-175-24-89.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:46:44 *** Pereba [~UserNick@177.17.92.107] has quit [Quit: AdiIRC! 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11:44:30 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~flex@i59F6B2B9.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 11:52:39 *** sla_ro|master [~sla.ro@85.186.160.35] has joined #openttd 11:56:17 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590ffd25.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 11:59:09 <planetmaker> kero, what do you mean? 11:59:33 <planetmaker> you can check out openttd sources from whatever repo you feel comfortable to trust and compile that 11:59:35 <kero> well when I launch openttd, it uses and search files in my ~/.openttd 11:59:39 *** Nekrodes [~Nekrodes@LNantes-156-76-16-40.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:59:54 *** Ristovski [~rafael@31.11.106.87] has joined #openttd 11:59:55 <planetmaker> it uses the files in all paths as outlined in section 4.2 11:59:56 <kero> I was wondering if it can use another repository 12:00:14 <planetmaker> I'd not call file system paths repository though :-) 12:00:50 <planetmaker> you cannot configure the default paths other than at compile time 12:00:58 <kero> ok 12:01:03 <MNIM-zZz> 0.o 12:01:10 <planetmaker> you can force it to use the ones local to your binary, if you put a config file next to it 12:01:11 <MNIM-zZz> wait, seriously, planetmaker? 12:01:26 <planetmaker> MNIM-zZz, read section 4 of the readme please 12:01:50 <MNIM-zZz> would've thought the data folder would be less hardcoded. 12:01:51 <kero> I was meaning changing repository on the fly 12:02:02 <MNIM-zZz> also, readme? hehehehehe ;) 12:02:02 <kero> an option a little bit like the -c for config file 12:02:05 <planetmaker> you hardly can configure the config path in a config file - how should it find it otherwise in a non-default place, MNIM-zZz ? 12:02:56 <MNIM-zZz> ...huh. valid point 12:04:00 <planetmaker> kero, as you're on linux you could nicely make use of symlinks, though ;-) 12:04:36 <kero> that's anyway what I do atm :) 12:04:53 <planetmaker> kero, thus what I do, I usually want the reverse: specific config file per server which share the newgrf, ai and base set dirs: 12:05:31 <planetmaker> I put the cfg next to the binary. And symlink the newgrf, ai content_download, game and baseset dirs to their counterparts in ~/.openttd 12:06:11 <planetmaker> thus any download from the server with its individual config file lands in the general-use content-download dir 12:08:31 <planetmaker> but what problem do you try to solve, kero ? 12:10:19 <kero> I wouldn't speak about a problem. Sometimes I wan't to launch openttd completely vanilla, without config changes/newgrf, to check things 12:11:11 <kero> specially because I don't wan't my openttd.cfg file being changed while I try things 12:14:12 <Eddi|zuHause> kero: try the "-c" option to specify the location of the config file, then it should use paths relative to that location 12:15:18 <kero> I already tried, but I doesn't really works. It also loads things in the original ~/.openttd 12:18:55 *** roboboy [~robotboy@0001164c.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 12:20:01 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but it wouldn't _save_ them there 12:20:24 <kero> true 12:25:07 <peter1138> Have we not switched to XDG paths yet? 12:30:31 <Rubidium> is that part of systemd? ;) 12:30:43 <peter1138> ... no. 12:31:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i know that we used xdg open for launching the browser, but otherwise i have no clue 12:32:59 <Eddi|zuHause> kero: if you're worried about "generic" stuff slipping in, don't have an .openttd directory at all, but use the -c option for all instances 12:33:34 <peter1138> Well, as we still use .openttd, that's a no :-) 12:34:57 <kero> Eddi|zuHause : indeed, i'll maybee to that 12:36:01 <kero> Now: it's not as if it was a great deal. I was just wondering if the possibility existed to specify the directory path. 12:37:38 *** zydeco [~zydeco@252.68.18.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #openttd 12:38:09 <zydeco> greetings, comrades 12:39:34 <Eddi|zuHause> www.youtube.com/watch?v=CarpH6OV3xk 12:51:04 *** adf88 [~Thunderbi@wis-zul.spine.pl] has joined #openttd 13:00:47 *** zeknurn [~sup@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 13:04:06 *** Pecio [~fgh@acds2.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has left #openttd [] 13:05:38 <Eddi|zuHause> kero: well the other solution would be to run them as different users :) 13:08:16 <kero> for sure ! 13:08:38 <kero> in french we would call that kind of solution "tuer une mouche avec un bazooka" 13:08:42 <kero> :) 13:09:23 *** Pecio [~fgh@acds2.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 13:11:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd assume that means the same as "mit kanonen auf spatzen schieÃen" :p 13:11:32 <kero> just that 13:21:38 *** Supercheese_ [~Superchee@98.145.155.246] has joined #openttd 13:26:48 *** Supercheese [~Superchee@98.145.155.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:11:12 <Belugas> hello 14:16:24 *** Nekrodes [~Nekrodes@LNantes-156-76-16-40.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 14:16:56 *** zydeco [~zydeco@252.68.18.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:25:31 *** zydeco [~zydeco@166.201.20.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #openttd 14:44:23 *** roboboy [~robotboy@0001164c.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:55:41 *** Pecio [~fgh@acds2.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has left #openttd [] 14:56:18 *** Hendrick [~Hendrick@212.93.105.49] has quit [Quit: ÐеÑжО гÑаМаÑÑ, баклаМ!] 15:04:32 *** dfox [~dfox@94.142.237.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:05:11 *** dfox [~dfox@94.142.237.120] has joined #openttd 15:10:57 *** abchirk_ [~abchirk@g229090072.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd 15:18:05 *** Jomann [~abchirk@f052020075.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:50:45 *** Fuco [foobar@server.dasnet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:09:46 *** MNIM-zZz [~mBuntu@ip5452ffad.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:11:49 *** zydeco [~zydeco@166.201.20.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Miscellaneous hardware exception error] 16:11:53 *** Fuco [foobar@server.dasnet.cz] has joined #openttd 16:27:52 *** Jomann [~abchirk@g229090072.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd 16:27:52 *** abchirk_ [~abchirk@g229090072.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:28:20 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B87A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 16:41:26 *** alluke [~oftc-webi@cs181208223.pp.htv.fi] has joined #openttd 16:47:38 *** mindlesstux [~mindlestu@raspberrypi.mindlesstux.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:52:22 *** mindlesstux [~mindlestu@raspberrypi.mindlesstux.com] has joined #openttd 16:54:42 *** kero [~keikoz@202.4.69.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: kero] 16:55:36 *** Nekrodes [~Nekrodes@LNantes-156-76-16-40.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:04:21 *** Alice3 [~Alice@cpc18-grim14-2-0-cust478.12-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd 17:08:13 *** dfox [~dfox@94.142.237.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:11:48 <alluke> swedish houses set lacks big stone houses in early years 17:12:21 <planetmaker> did you draw them? 17:14:11 *** DDR [~kvirc@184.71.170.250] has joined #openttd 17:18:09 <alluke> nope 17:18:16 <alluke> but they seem to appear too late 17:18:34 <alluke> those existed already in 1800s 17:18:50 <alluke> its 1925 and all houses are small ones in the suburbs 17:19:02 <alluke> city centrums are all empty 17:20:57 <alluke> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1004368/asd.png 17:44:06 *** adf88 [~Thunderbi@wis-zul.spine.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:51:05 *** oskari89 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 17:54:37 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@5070A0D5.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has joined #openttd 18:01:41 *** dfox [~dfox@94.142.237.120] has joined #openttd 18:07:28 *** TheMask96 [martijn@polaris.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:09:01 *** TheMask96 [martijn@89.104.166.242] has joined #openttd 18:17:05 *** LeandroL [~leandro@190.189.0.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:30:40 <Sacro> Anyone here code Python? 18:30:55 <V453000> no 18:31:25 <frosch123> python is likely the most popular language in this channel 18:31:46 <frosch123> though it's hard to rate against c++ considernig all the idlers :p 18:31:53 <V453000> what, even people who dont know what python is hate it around here 18:31:55 <V453000> <- 18:31:56 <V453000> :D 18:32:18 <frosch123> V453000: python is the language, nml is written in. no python, no nuts, ok? 18:32:31 <V453000> not ok! :D 18:32:46 <Sacro> I'm trying to move some classes into modules, but the class inherites from a variable decalred from an ORM 18:32:53 <Sacro> I'm unable to figure out just how this works >< 18:39:39 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 18:39:42 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 18:39:57 <Alberth> moin 18:40:31 <Sacro> sigh 18:41:08 <Alberth> have a cookie! 18:41:17 <V453000> NO. 18:41:54 <LordAro> D: 18:49:04 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host180-136-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 18:49:25 <Sacro> my head hurts 18:49:29 <Sacro> I don't get Python :( 18:49:35 <Wolf01> o/ 18:49:43 <Alberth> hi Wolf01 18:50:14 <Alberth> Sacro: what's the problem? 18:50:28 <planetmaker> moin 18:50:54 <Sacro> so I declare global db 18:50:54 <Sacro> db = Database('sqlite', 'cifimporter.sqlite', create_db=True) 18:50:55 *** KouDy [~koudy@188.75.190.58] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:50:56 <Alberth> hi hi 18:51:00 <Sacro> not global, sorry 18:51:08 *** KouDy [~koudy@188.75.190.58] has joined #openttd 18:51:29 <Sacro> and then I can define class foo(db.Entity): ... 18:52:08 <Sacro> however I want to move these classes into seperate files 18:52:20 <Sacro> but I need to pass the db ... poi nter to them 18:52:35 <Sacro> also I'm getting stupid amounts of packet loss over wifi 18:54:48 *** glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 18:54:49 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 18:54:49 <Alberth> make a global db in one file, then import that in the file of class foo 18:55:20 <Sacro> I tried that 18:55:34 <Sacro> I think 18:55:39 <Sacro> I put global db in both files 18:55:45 *** Pereba [~UserNick@177.17.92.107] has joined #openttd 18:56:18 <Alberth> you need 1 db, unless you want two dbs, of course 18:56:59 <Alberth> a.py: db = .... b.py: import a class foo(a.db.Entity): ... 18:58:15 <Sacro> Doesn't then that couple foo to a? 18:58:45 <Sacro> this is why I don't code >< 18:59:15 <Alberth> it is coupled, isn't it? foo is a derived class from a.db.Entity 19:01:24 <Sacro> Well, I wanted to have all my ORM classes in seperate files 19:01:53 <Sacro> if I have to pass the calling class then that makes it rather pointless 19:02:19 <Alberth> Python is not Java; it's fine to have classes that belong together in one file 19:02:22 *** LeandroL [~leandro@190.189.0.224] has joined #openttd 19:03:10 <frosch123> @seen zuu 19:03:10 <DorpsGek> frosch123: zuu was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 0 days, 20 hours, 53 minutes, and 14 seconds ago: <Zuu> hello 19:03:19 <LordAro> :( 19:03:44 <Sacro> Alberth: yes but it was more so I could easily bring them all togeher 19:04:59 <Sacro> so why does 'from foo import bar' fai 19:05:00 <Sacro> l 19:05:05 <Sacro> but 'import foo.bar' works 19:07:38 <Alberth> the last time I checked, Python recommended to use full package paths, ie from the root of the package. 19:07:47 *** TomyLobo [~foo@91-65-113-111-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #openttd 19:07:56 <Alberth> could that be an issue here? 19:08:21 <Alberth> there were ideas to make it more flexible, but I didn't check what was eventually changed 19:08:26 <Sacro> I have no idea 19:09:42 <Alberth> it may also depend on how you use the imported module 19:09:58 <Alberth> in the former, you have "bar" but not "foo" 19:13:47 *** gelignite [~gelignite@i5387A935.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 19:25:55 *** montalvo [~montalvo@papc-ma276.st-andrews.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 19:35:21 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25930 /trunk/src/lang (english_US.txt italian.txt) (2013-10-29 18:45:14 UTC) 19:35:22 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 19:35:23 <DorpsGek> english_US - 1 changes by Rubidium 19:35:24 <DorpsGek> italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv 19:38:38 <Eddi|zuHause> <Sacro> so why does 'from foo import bar' fai <-- that only works if foo/__init__.py contains "import bar" 19:53:23 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd 19:55:22 *** Pensacola [~quassel@h220216.upc-h.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 20:00:53 *** Pensacola [~quassel@h220216.upc-h.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:05:44 *** alluke [~oftc-webi@cs181208223.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:08:35 <LordAro> say, this looks fun: https://floobits.com/ 20:16:35 *** yorick [~yorick@ip51cd0513.speed.planet.nl] has joined #openttd 20:24:16 <andythenorth> I do enjoy this thread 20:24:24 <andythenorth> "OpenTTD is basically no good" :) 20:24:43 <V453000> the 552 or 2158th edition? 20:24:54 <andythenorth> hmm 20:24:57 <andythenorth> let me think 20:26:27 <andythenorth> both 20:26:55 <andythenorth> thread is here btw http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=69050 20:27:45 <andythenorth> what we really need is a way to level up 20:27:50 <andythenorth> and two forms of in-game currency 20:27:51 <Pinkbeast> I'm not sure anything has _changed_ to make it easier... 20:28:01 <andythenorth> one of which can only be obtained by buying it from us for real money 20:28:08 <andythenorth> and experience points 20:28:23 <andythenorth> and mini-challenges that unlock bonus items 20:28:36 * andythenorth has been exposed to too many casual games with in-game purchases recently :P 20:30:07 *** LeandroL [~leandro@190.189.0.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:30:08 <Eddi|zuHause> there were lots of changes that made the game "easier" 20:31:04 <Alberth> reduce mapsize back to 256 x 256 ? 20:31:35 <V453000> not worth bothering with these threads anymore :D 20:32:03 <V453000> also you need to be able to shoot people in the game 20:32:09 <V453000> otherwise its just sub par 20:32:30 <planetmaker> andythenorth, I found the most interesting thing that the person argues with difficulty levels which don't exist anymore for quite some time :-) 20:33:14 <V453000> (: 20:33:16 <planetmaker> Pinkbeast, try to make money on a 64^2, a 256^2 and a 1024^2 map :-) 20:34:13 <Pinkbeast> On a 64^2 one can make enough money to connect every industry and town and transport all their cargo (that vehicle speed will permit rating to allow) and terraform the whole map to a pancake... what would you _do_ with more? 20:34:48 <andythenorth> it's such a spurious issue anyway :P 20:34:50 *** roadt [~roadt@60.168.82.47] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:34:57 <Pinkbeast> I mean, I think using earning money as an insight into difficulty only matters when there's something to buy (or if, Simutrans-style, you might go bankrupt). 20:35:57 <andythenorth> it's intriguing: many of the suggestions for make it harder revolve around 'make it a more realistic simulation' 20:36:11 <andythenorth> because, fuck yeah, reality has such great gameplay :P 20:36:17 <V453000> those threads should actively be trolled by andythenorth I feel like 20:36:27 <andythenorth> I am in a trolly mood 20:36:33 <V453000> for a change 20:36:36 <andythenorth> I did some epic Lego trolling this week 20:36:40 <V453000> :D 20:36:51 *** Haube [~michi@77-20-40-44-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #openttd 20:37:07 <andythenorth> http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=85698&st=350#entry1727216 20:37:56 <V453000> wat 20:39:25 <andythenorth> so anyway 20:39:44 <andythenorth> the casual games I've been playing are stuff like Pocket Trains and Dragon City 20:39:58 <andythenorth> they are really beautiful, really nice sound effects, and really addictive 20:40:12 <planetmaker> and really expensive pay2win 20:40:12 <andythenorth> but they are free-to-download. The business model is in-app purchases 20:40:15 *** LeandroL [~leandro@190.189.0.224] has joined #openttd 20:40:31 <andythenorth> so all the 'gameplay' is really tedious menial tasks, with loooong time delays 20:40:49 <andythenorth> and basically you can then spend £1.49 - £99 to just win stuff 20:41:00 <andythenorth> so it's basically menial work and/or shopping 20:41:09 <andythenorth> zero strategy or tactics 20:41:44 <Alberth> but then you'd need to think, which takes brain power you could spend on buying stuff 20:42:21 <V453000> LOL 20:43:04 <andythenorth> they are *really* addictive 20:43:16 <andythenorth> and quite rewarding for first few days, as you make level progression quickly 20:43:25 <andythenorth> and they are really well crafted 20:43:30 <andythenorth> but I'm going right off them :P 20:43:43 <V453000> mor nuts - time well spent 20:43:43 <V453000> G_G 20:44:28 <andythenorth> it's boring to realise that the only thing I'm playing against is my own attention span 20:44:37 <andythenorth> and whether I cave in and hit 'purchase' 20:45:01 <andythenorth> I have no point here, just observing 20:45:18 <Eddi|zuHause> we are clearly in the last days of our civilization 20:46:20 <andythenorth> I think we're always in the last days of our current civilisation :P 20:46:43 <Eddi|zuHause> it's obvious that it's completely falling apart in the next 50-100 years 20:47:44 <andythenorth> afaik, from some tiny historical knowledge, that has been obvious for at least 2000 years 20:48:15 <andythenorth> and as at least Indian civilisation history goes back about 5k years, I _think_ it has been obvious that long 20:48:37 <Pinkbeast> Pretty sure some of the Chinese dynasties thought they'd last forever 20:50:26 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i mean like the easter island, the khmer empire or the maya empire kind of "falling apart" 20:50:26 <andythenorth> anyway, I had an idea, might be nonsense 20:50:41 <andythenorth> trying to figure out what an OpenTTD with no dates would be like 20:50:58 <Eddi|zuHause> where 100 years later nobody even remembers there being an empire 20:51:03 <andythenorth> time progression remains 20:51:03 <Xaroth|Work> a timeless game, andythenorth. 20:51:17 <andythenorth> but vehicle introductions etc are triggered against goals, not dates 20:51:59 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: implement "research" 20:52:10 <Xaroth|Work> make a bigass skill tree 20:52:12 <Xaroth|Work> like path of exile 20:52:23 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah :) 20:52:42 <planetmaker> hehe 20:52:49 <Pinkbeast> Eddi|zuHause: I daresay the survivors will _remember_ the USA's hegemony 20:52:52 <Eddi|zuHause> could make your engines 3% faster or 5% stronger 20:52:56 <andythenorth> I've been playing a game with crafting 20:52:57 <andythenorth> it's shit 20:52:58 <planetmaker> the concept of skills and the tree there is actually quite nice 20:53:11 <andythenorth> crafting in a pay-for-stuff game is really lame 20:54:51 <Eddi|zuHause> Pinkbeast: after the first european expeditions crossed north america to the mississippi region, they found a civilisation that built pyramids and stuff, when the settlers moved there 100 years later, the inhabitants were so decimated that they didn't have any knowledge of who built these ancient pyramids 20:55:23 <Pinkbeast> Eddi|zuHause: Indeed, but the present arrangement is much, much better at producing written artifacts 20:55:56 <Eddi|zuHause> Pinkbeast: that was true 20-200 years ago, but nowadays most things are electronic 20:56:11 <Eddi|zuHause> and who's gonna be able to read a DVD in 20 years time? 20:56:43 <planetmaker> the present is terrible at leaving artefacts which last beyond 50 years time span 20:56:52 <Rubidium> even reading flash cards from a camera of half a decade ago is troublesome ;) 20:57:04 <planetmaker> unless it's printed books. 20:57:47 <Pinkbeast> Hey, my 64M Flash card still works (but more seriously, "paperless office", my arse - computers are astonishingly good at producing print) 20:58:25 <yorick> "to unlock more than 100 trains, press the donate link below!" 20:59:34 <Eddi|zuHause> germany makes an archive for future generations to find, in some abandoned mine in a remote forest. there they don't store anything electronic, but on microfiche, so something a human could decipher if the archive is found in 500 years 20:59:58 <andythenorth> assuming magnifying glasses survive 21:00:40 <andythenorth> planetmaker: how would skills tree work? 21:00:45 <andythenorth> I haven't played many games like that 21:01:05 <andythenorth> games now all seem to have endless 'you won a fricking gold star' constant reward mechanics 21:01:09 <andythenorth> 'achievment unlocked' 21:01:11 <andythenorth> meh 21:01:23 <Pinkbeast> Turning vehicle arrival dates into an R&D budget could be interesting 21:01:27 <planetmaker> andythenorth, in which game? OpenTTDPay2Win? 21:01:36 <andythenorth> dunno 21:01:36 <Eddi|zuHause> one of the problems of our current time is that we dig up so many archeological artifacts that when that knowledge gets lost again, the next civilization will have problems finding artifacts not only about our current time, but also about times before ours 21:03:23 <planetmaker> andythenorth, Indeed I like the path of exile way: define a few character 'classes'. And then they can move on in a web of paths from that point 21:03:35 <planetmaker> and each step along a path gives you +X in a certain skill 21:03:57 <planetmaker> skills not every time the same, but you know what comes 21:04:00 <andythenorth> hmm 21:04:02 <Eddi|zuHause> you never ever have enough skill points :p 21:04:03 <planetmaker> thus you can choose 21:04:06 <andythenorth> this is so addictive http://armorgames.com/play/2893/achievement-unlocked 21:04:09 <planetmaker> and know which paths are nice 21:04:15 * andythenorth went searching for Achievement Unlocked 21:04:23 <andythenorth> "Who needs gameplay when you have ACHIEVEMENTS?" 21:04:30 <andythenorth> "Focus solely on your ultimate destiny... doing random tasks that have nothing to do with anything. Metagame yourself with ease! Self-satisfaction never felt so... artificial!" 21:04:47 <Pinkbeast> "Upgrade Complete" is quite cute as well, in a similiar vein 21:04:59 <V453000> yeah unlocking nuts train levels and classes for example XD 21:05:01 <Alberth> andythenorth: sounds like your random GS :) 21:05:11 *** retro|cz [~retro@ip-78-45-93-251.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:05:25 <andythenorth> It's all just a bit bizarre 21:05:28 <Pinkbeast> V453000: NUTS would be a good fit because the "next" vehicle is actually expected to be better, yes. 21:05:40 <andythenorth> when I grew up you had 'level complete' etc 21:05:51 <andythenorth> but now kids get achievements, and for fricking everything 21:05:53 <V453000> exactly 21:05:57 <andythenorth> cleaned teeth: have an achievement 21:06:06 <andythenorth> went to school: have an achievement 21:06:23 <andythenorth> and this isn't a rant about 'kids today', it's nothing to do with them, they're 3 and don't choose this stuff 21:06:48 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, the "achievement unlocked" generation :) 21:06:49 <V453000> achievements doesnt have to influence gameplay 21:06:59 <V453000> e.g. starcraft - you get a shitload of various achievements which are fun 21:07:07 <V453000> but it wont cause your game to be cuter etc 21:07:16 <V453000> well yeah you can get portraits and meh, but not gameplay wise 21:07:32 <Eddi|zuHause> achievement unlocked: unicorn bonus level 21:07:39 <andythenorth> Car games that unlocked new car parts makes sense 21:08:05 <andythenorth> I was playing Euro Truck Simulator for the last few months...Achievement: You Drove To Frankfurt 21:08:09 <andythenorth> fuck yeah, I'm winning 21:08:13 <andythenorth> let's keep playing 21:08:18 <andythenorth> I'm really motivated 21:08:26 <Eddi|zuHause> which frankfurt? 21:08:37 <V453000> XD 21:08:56 <andythenorth> the teeny tiny pseudo one (Frankfurt-am-Main I think) in the game 21:08:59 * Pinkbeast did go to most of the cities just to see which landmarks they got in the skybox 21:09:01 <andythenorth> or there could be some kind of strategy...and tactics :P 21:09:06 <Eddi|zuHause> # Weil Frankfurt so groà ist teilt man's in zwei ein 21:09:21 <Eddi|zuHause> # In Frankfurt an der Oder und Frankfurt am Main 21:09:34 <andythenorth> anyway, we should put achievements into OpenTTD so that we can attract many more players 21:09:38 <andythenorth> and be truly successful 21:10:50 <planetmaker> goals are achievements, no? 21:11:07 <planetmaker> And yes, even when achievements do not influence the gameplay, they can be there 21:11:15 <andythenorth> goals are different to achievements 21:11:18 <planetmaker> they give a 'purpose' in open-end games otherwise 21:11:22 <planetmaker> andythenorth, how? 21:11:30 <andythenorth> hmm 21:11:39 <planetmaker> really depends on how you utilise openttd's 'goals' 21:11:41 <andythenorth> goal is a thorny word in English 21:11:46 <andythenorth> can mean different things 21:11:50 <planetmaker> it could simply give you a medal - and do otherwise nothing 21:11:58 <planetmaker> and keep track of those in the storybook 21:12:06 <andythenorth> I view a goal as a win condition, with some progression 21:12:13 <andythenorth> either closer to winning, or unlocking new gameplay 21:12:28 <planetmaker> the baby had to have a name :-) And yes, you *can* do that 21:12:34 <andythenorth> of course, getting an achievement can be a goal, because the word goal is quite flexible in English 21:12:43 <planetmaker> but you can simply unlock nothing other than a wall of text. 21:12:52 <planetmaker> and a golden plastic crown 21:12:56 <andythenorth> hmm 21:12:57 <andythenorth> :) 21:13:54 <V453000> man nuts would be so awesome with tech tree :D especially e.g. unlocking the kinds of bonus engines 21:14:14 <V453000> I cant think how would you evaluate when does a player get engine X (by what values), but yeah :D 21:14:16 <andythenorth> what causes progression along the tree? 21:14:25 <V453000> some achievement 21:14:33 <V453000> or time if talking within train class 21:15:02 <andythenorth> built 30 evil horse engines, get an evil zebra 21:15:10 <andythenorth> build 50 evil zebras, get a unicorn 21:15:36 <planetmaker> like that. Or transport Xtons of cargo Y in one year 21:15:45 <andythenorth> or travel 300,000 kilometers using evil zebras, get an evil giraffe 21:15:52 <planetmaker> Or grow a town to 5000 population (for express trains) 21:16:03 <V453000> something like that andy 21:16:09 <andythenorth> deliver x tons of steel to evil train plant 21:16:10 <V453000> perhaps with a time limit 21:16:13 <andythenorth> (evil steel) 21:16:34 <V453000> e.g. transport W amount of cargo X by engines Y, you get Z 21:16:37 <andythenorth> I think the forced isolation between newgrf and GS makes this...hard? 21:16:45 <V453000> :D kind of? 21:17:38 <andythenorth> it is interesting that the newgrf spec mostly developed in a foamer direction, not a gameplay direction 21:18:31 <andythenorth> the set I am doing with Dan is getting more and more gameplay focussed, and less and less about making a model train sim based on real world 21:18:32 <V453000> myeah, grf = grafix :P 21:18:35 <Eddi|zuHause> transport X cargos for next level, and then exponential growth of X 21:19:55 <andythenorth> I can't explain why, but I think hiding the real-world year would help this in some cases 21:20:08 <andythenorth> I also see why so many of you like toyland, after playing it with child #1 a lot 21:20:13 <andythenorth> I still hate it :P 21:20:21 <andythenorth> but yeah, it's more fun, not so much model trains 21:20:33 <Eddi|zuHause> civilization has a tech tree and a "real world year" 21:20:54 <Eddi|zuHause> never had a problem with launching the spaceship in 1850 :p 21:21:04 <andythenorth> he :) 21:21:50 <planetmaker> :-) 21:22:18 <andythenorth> but the dates are controlled by newgrf 21:22:34 <andythenorth> and newgrf is golden, may never be touched, may never be over-ridden lest an author complain 21:22:42 *** montalvo [~montalvo@host86-186-141-34.range86-186.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 21:22:43 <andythenorth> so what are we to do? 21:22:46 <andythenorth> it's a real puzzle 21:23:02 <andythenorth> the like of which is beyond minds like mine 21:23:34 <Eddi|zuHause> transform newgrf's year of introduction into a tech level 21:23:51 <andythenorth> and have the game manage that per player? 21:23:56 <andythenorth> or per company perhaps 21:24:01 <Eddi|zuHause> like vehicles introduced in 1920 cost 500 research points and vehicles in 1980 1 million 21:24:17 <andythenorth> oh so there's some integer that increases up from 0? 21:24:38 <andythenorth> and we could scale that against the default game, for those who want a boring real-world experience? 21:24:40 <V453000> :D 21:24:48 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, and you could focus on one engine which gets double points and all others half, or so 21:24:57 <andythenorth> and it's up to GS how tech level changes? 21:25:43 <andythenorth> wouldn't that also conveniently solve the utterly unrelated problems with randomised-per-model intro dates? 21:26:00 <andythenorth> (and model expiry) 21:26:51 <andythenorth> and afaik, most daylength requirements are about slowing down the rate of vehicle introduction? 21:27:01 <andythenorth> so this would solve daylength for some fraction of players 21:29:22 <planetmaker> that *would* be an interesting gameplay for sure :-) 21:29:44 <V453000> randomized intro dates are wtf anyway 21:29:47 <andythenorth> yup 21:29:54 <andythenorth> they're pretty much unworkable 21:29:55 <planetmaker> the GS could also introduce new industries etc depending on tech levels 21:29:58 <andythenorth> yup 21:30:06 <andythenorth> solving a whole load of specific date crap 21:30:14 <andythenorth> hmm 21:30:20 <andythenorth> digression 21:30:21 <planetmaker> replacing it by specific tech level crap :D 21:30:23 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem with that is that the newgrf must somehow define the tech levels 21:30:27 <V453000> interesting 21:30:31 <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise the GS can't do anything 21:30:35 <V453000> y 21:30:45 <Eddi|zuHause> or whatever the GS is doing will suck 21:31:15 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: can't we just use an integer value, normalised against default TTD? 21:31:23 <andythenorth> 1950 in default game = 500 or whatever 21:31:40 <andythenorth> and newgrf just says 'this engine arrives at tech level 500' 21:31:46 <andythenorth> again normalised against default game 21:32:01 <andythenorth> we have to have some kind of baseline? 21:32:16 * andythenorth guessing purely 21:32:36 <andythenorth> btw when we play MP NoCarGoal or whatever, games are too short to care about dates and new vehicle introductions and stuff 21:32:52 <andythenorth> but still a NoCarGoal challenge (or high score league) could track tech levels 21:33:32 <andythenorth> and we could try playing with different newgrfs without needing an intimate knowledge of which ones introduce which vehicles when 21:34:08 <V453000> well yeah because you are lazy bastards and play too short games :P 21:34:23 <andythenorth> I blame the kid 21:34:33 <Eddi|zuHause> extended CETS with vehicle every 2 years :p 21:34:41 <andythenorth> anyway, this is all waffle, but in summary: 21:34:57 <andythenorth> - ottd can't go manipulating the game date, people will whine, industries will break etc 21:35:08 <andythenorth> - ottd can't currently over-ride newgrfs intro dates 21:35:12 <andythenorth> - so let's have an abstraction 21:35:25 <andythenorth> what can go wrong? 21:35:27 <andythenorth> not much 21:36:00 * andythenorth is going to the pub 21:36:08 <andythenorth> first decent pony idea in a while though :D 21:36:09 <V453000> good solution 21:36:10 <V453000> :) 21:36:30 <andythenorth> thanks, I try 21:36:42 <andythenorth> maybe it will get worked out while I am away? 21:36:43 <andythenorth> :) 21:36:44 <andythenorth> bye 21:36:46 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 21:43:16 <jrambo> is there a way to hotkey buying vehicles, or if not, to implement that in the game? 21:47:36 <jrambo> there seems to be something in the hotkeys.cfg about it, but i cant get it to work :/ 21:50:03 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds tricky, as you have to select a depot 21:51:07 <Eddi|zuHause> so you can't just put "GLOBAL+key" on a button 22:00:42 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 22:09:22 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-81-126.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 22:12:33 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~flex@i59F6C6E9.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 22:14:38 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:16:04 *** Alice3 [~Alice@cpc18-grim14-2-0-cust478.12-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [] 22:18:45 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~flex@i59F6B2B9.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:21:21 *** kais58__3 [~kais58@cpc8-cwma7-2-0-cust113.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd 22:23:02 *** kais58__2 [~kais58@cpc8-cwma7-2-0-cust113.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:23:26 *** Elukka [~Elukka@a91-152-213-89.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [] 22:28:40 <Wolf01> nighty night 22:28:48 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 22:30:28 <frosch123> night 22:30:32 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590ffd25.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: be yourself, except: if you have the opportunity to be a unicorn, then be a unicorn] 22:32:05 *** kais58__3 is now known as kais58|AFK 22:40:20 *** sla_ro|master [~sla.ro@85.186.160.35] has quit [] 22:43:48 *** Djohaal [~Djohaal@177.132.110.73] has joined #openttd 22:57:32 *** gelignite [~gelignite@i5387A935.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: http://bit.ly/nkczDT] 23:03:44 *** oskari89 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 23:04:28 *** montalvo [~montalvo@host86-186-141-34.range86-186.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 23:30:47 *** Ristovski [~rafael@31.11.106.87] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:39:35 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B87A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:45:14 *** Pereba [~UserNick@177.17.92.107] has quit [Quit: AdiIRC is updating to v1.9.2 Beta Build (2013/10/29-1) 64 Bit] 23:45:54 *** |sturmi| [~Sturmi@pD9EB0885.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 23:45:56 *** Pereba [~UserNick@177.17.92.107] has joined #openttd 23:51:38 *** sturmi [~Sturmi@pD9EB305B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]