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00:00:37 *** luaduck is now known as luaduck_zzz 00:03:59 *** ProfFrink [~proffrink@87.113.216.131] has joined #openttd 00:06:54 *** SHOTbyGUN [shotbygun@213-186-253-83.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:08:22 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@195.32.200.146.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:08:22 *** ProfFrink is now known as Prof_Frink 00:11:57 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:16:53 *** liq3 [liq3@120.147.178.81] has quit [] 00:33:00 *** Pikkaphone [~yaaic@58.108.147.32] has joined #openttd 00:54:52 *** Supercheese [~Superchee@76.178.136.186] has joined #openttd 01:05:51 *** Hazzard [~quassel@c-67-174-253-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 01:08:47 *** supermop [~daniel_er@d110-33-191-31.sun801.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 01:17:51 *** Pikkaphone [~yaaic@58.108.147.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:28:45 *** Supercheese_ [~Superchee@76.178.136.186] has joined #openttd 01:29:08 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~flex@i59F6A7D9.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 01:30:01 *** Supercheese is now known as Guest1681 01:30:01 *** Supercheese_ is now known as Supercheese 01:30:06 *** supermop [~daniel_er@d110-33-191-31.sun801.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:33:36 *** Guest1681 [~Superchee@76.178.136.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:40:10 *** yorick [~yorick@ip51cd0513.speed.planet.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:41:39 *** supermop [~daniel_er@d110-33-191-31.sun801.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 01:42:21 *** yorick [~yorick@ip51cd0513.speed.planet.nl] has joined #openttd 01:53:42 <MTsPony> Rubidium: actually i was just messin with my wifi settings ;) i run an irc app in the background with background manager :p 01:56:38 *** Pikkaphone [~yaaic@131.181.158.141] has joined #openttd 02:10:05 *** glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Bye] 02:12:11 *** ixalovh [~ixalovh@adsl-69-208-81-185.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:16:46 *** DDR [~kvirc@S010600254bbe4e1c.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #openttd 02:16:47 *** Pikkaphone [~yaaic@131.181.158.141] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:23:18 *** Pikkaphone [~yaaic@131.181.158.141] has joined #openttd 02:24:15 *** ProfFrink [~proffrink@37.86.208.46.dyn.plus.net] has joined #openttd 02:24:16 *** Pikkaphone [~yaaic@131.181.158.141] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:24:30 *** DDR [~kvirc@S010600254bbe4e1c.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:24:52 *** DDR [~kvirc@S010600254bbe4e1c.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #openttd 02:27:52 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@87.113.216.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:27:52 *** ProfFrink is now known as Prof_Frink 02:53:09 *** Fuco [foobar@server.dasnet.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:55:12 *** abchirk_ [~abchirk@p4FE21A22.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 02:58:33 *** Fuco [foobar@server.dasnet.cz] has joined #openttd 03:02:32 *** Jomann [~abchirk@p4FE21765.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:23:48 *** Pereba [~UserNick@179.181.225.62] has quit [Quit: AdiIRC is your next irc client! (www.adiirc.com)] 04:56:02 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p5DC67E16.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] 04:56:16 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD54FB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 05:07:51 *** Pikka [~Octomom@d58-106-23-62.rdl801.qld.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 05:12:55 *** namad7 [aaaaa@pool-74-111-111-176.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 05:17:34 *** namad8 [aaaaa@pool-74-111-111-176.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:35:39 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd 05:36:37 *** Hazzard [~quassel@c-67-174-253-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:42:57 <andythenorth> @seen danmack 05:42:57 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: danmack was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 12 hours, 52 minutes, and 1 second ago: <DanMacK> @seen andythenorth 05:43:04 <andythenorth> the usual 05:43:09 <andythenorth> moin Pikka 05:44:43 <V453000> hyhyhyhyhhyhyhyhyhy 05:45:08 <andythenorth> bonjour V 05:45:20 <V453000> what up 05:46:29 <andythenorth> trams up 05:46:39 * andythenorth considers heli-trams 05:46:57 <V453000> XD 05:46:59 <V453000> wetrail trams? 05:47:07 <V453000> dayum height levels so high 05:47:17 <andythenorth> 255 is definitely enough 05:49:04 <V453000> hm the two best iron horse trains are quite ugly andy :( 05:49:15 <V453000> no specular highlights etc 05:49:26 <V453000> you should whip your slave 05:51:29 <andythenorth> the double juice and screamer? 05:51:35 <V453000> exactly 05:51:57 *** Flygon_ [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has joined #openttd 05:52:25 <andythenorth> such horse 05:53:48 <V453000> just dont forget to whip the slaves so they do a better job :P 05:55:59 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 05:58:13 *** Flygon [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:05:13 *** Celestar [~Celestar@p4FD6EC19.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 06:06:50 *** TomyLobo [~foo@91.65.115.103] has joined #openttd 06:08:14 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd 06:14:42 *** DDR [~kvirc@S010600254bbe4e1c.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:22:55 <planetmaker> bon jour 06:23:43 *** Celestar [~Celestar@p4FD6EC19.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:24:27 <V453000> hy jour 06:26:15 <Pikka> what what what 06:27:25 <Pikka> where's the 64bpp horse? 06:28:36 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~flex@88.130.182.166] has joined #openttd 06:31:43 <Supercheese> 2048bpp 06:31:52 <Pikka> easily 06:32:13 <andythenorth> busy making trams innit 06:32:15 <Supercheese> the more baconsperpig the better 06:32:27 <Supercheese> 8 bacons is not enough 06:32:47 <andythenorth> should I animate the rivets on these trams? 06:33:07 <Pikka> at 48fps 06:33:25 <Supercheese> I'm no so sure, if they get animated they may complain about their lot in life 06:33:39 <Supercheese> "Why do I have to hold this panel on? I would much rather be in Cancún thank you very much." 06:34:25 <Supercheese> then they'd form a union and petition for wage increases. Or well, wages in the first place. 06:34:57 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~flex@i59F6A7D9.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:35:22 <Supercheese> No, best they stay un-animated 06:36:23 *** TomyLobo [~foo@91.65.115.103] has quit [Quit: Standby mode...] 06:41:40 <andythenorth> Pikka: ¿feel like renderising this? https://www.flickr.com/photos/jrjamesarchive/9355492509/ 06:41:46 <andythenorth> or I could just finish drawing it 06:42:06 <Pikka> on a scale from 1 to 10, do I feel like rendering it? 06:42:23 <Pikka> compared to preparing for my group presentation tomorrow, probably. 06:42:36 <Supercheese> Eesh, group presentation 06:42:40 <Pikka> how's the drawing going? 06:42:59 <V453000> XD 06:43:05 <V453000> Pikka makes it RELATIVE 06:43:14 <andythenorth> I am hacking a HEQS sprite 06:43:29 <Supercheese> 'ware the axe when hacking 06:43:35 <andythenorth> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/road-hog/repository/entry/src/graphics/broadrock_0.png 06:44:10 <Pikka> pretty :) 06:44:26 <Pikka> for all your granular needs 06:46:01 <andythenorth> 50t of uncountable pourables 06:46:09 <andythenorth> canât make the bonnet / cab work right though 06:46:13 <andythenorth> and the trailer scares me 06:46:21 <andythenorth> I hate proportions on / \ views 06:46:30 <andythenorth> normally just copy someone elseâs 06:46:59 <Pikka> ew 06:47:39 <peter1138> Copy TTD's proportions. 06:47:45 <peter1138> Or Pikka's 06:48:36 <V453000> almost makes me want to draw something but too much work 06:48:41 <V453000> 3D ftw 06:50:06 <andythenorth> V453000: draw me a truck? 06:52:04 <V453000> NO. 06:52:11 <V453000> I cant draw a truck? :d 06:52:17 <V453000> only did tranez 06:52:34 <V453000> guess it wouldnt be that hard 06:52:43 <V453000> but you dont want a truck to look like a slug do you 06:52:47 <V453000> damn that could be awesome 06:57:16 <andythenorth> slug truck 06:57:22 <andythenorth> not in my set, but maybe in yours? 06:57:38 <V453000> am not makenth RVz yet 06:57:43 <V453000> probably not anytime soon :P 06:59:21 <andythenorth> hurgh 06:59:23 <andythenorth> full FIRS is dumb 06:59:31 * andythenorth just saw the minimap industry view 07:00:09 <V453000> remove everything 07:00:12 <V453000> disable features 07:00:15 <V453000> dying 07:01:11 * andythenorth just switch to basic FIRS 07:01:13 <andythenorth> problem solved 07:01:22 <V453000> : 07:01:22 <V453000> ) 07:01:28 <V453000> temperate one looks best to me 07:08:38 *** Celestar [~Celestar@mnch-5d877829.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 07:12:26 <peter1138> BAD FEATURES: multiple (uncooperative) vehicle newgrfs... 07:13:33 <andythenorth> ? 07:15:27 <peter1138> dynamic_engines 07:19:58 <andythenorth> not at this time of day 07:20:02 <andythenorth> not enough coffee 07:20:12 <supermop> opposite problem here 07:20:19 <andythenorth> ho 07:20:26 <andythenorth> Iâll just nick the cab off one of Danâs trucks 07:20:27 <andythenorth> solved that 07:20:42 <andythenorth> most of my sprites are stolen 07:20:47 <andythenorth> way more effective 07:27:43 *** Celestar [~Celestar@mnch-5d877829.pool.mediaWays.net] has left #openttd [] 07:29:47 *** Seifur [~Seifur@0001f6e2.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 07:35:30 *** liq3 [~liq3@120.147.178.81] has joined #openttd 07:36:42 <peter1138> Derp 07:41:50 <supermop> can a house be composed of multiple sprites (other than ground sprite and foundations)? 07:42:11 <peter1138> They have to be. 07:42:39 <supermop> realsprites that is 07:42:57 <planetmaker> yes, supermop 07:43:13 <supermop> for example, one sprite for the four walls, and another for the roof on top of them? 07:43:43 <planetmaker> in principle yes. But that doesn't make much sense as you won't see two of the four sprites 07:43:52 <planetmaker> s/sprites/walls 07:44:06 <peter1138> Better to use 1 sprite. Less work for the game. 07:44:30 <supermop> so a house could have one sprite for facade and one for rear of house, and a third for the roof 07:44:51 <planetmaker> yeah, it's better if you made the grf such that you assembled the house into one sprite in the pre-processing stage during grf compilation 07:45:08 <supermop> but here's the thing: 07:45:09 <planetmaker> but yes, you can do that what you suggest 07:45:39 <supermop> if i want to have a generic terraced house as is common here 07:46:17 <planetmaker> then you need side wall, front wall and roof 07:46:17 <supermop> the bodies of all the houses are more or less the same, with only some details of the facade and roof gable differentiating them 07:47:09 <supermop> the few basic variations one sees lead to hundreds of possible combinations, more than enough to give a house set some variety 07:47:21 <planetmaker> anyhow: you can compose a house from arbitrary sprites 07:47:22 <supermop> but rendering that many houses gives a huge grf file 07:47:33 <peter1138> Each variation would need its own custom layout anyway. 07:47:42 <planetmaker> so using a few basic shapes with some decorations drawn on top which are tailored to the basic shapes might be a good idea 07:47:44 <peter1138> So you might as well just combine the sprites. 07:48:23 <supermop> having 4 house bodies, 8 facades, and 3 roofs that are combined by the game lets me have lots of vareity in a small file? 07:48:55 <supermop> or am i confused? 07:48:58 <planetmaker> supermop, "small file" is not a quality criterion 07:49:17 <supermop> to be honest i want to render fewer times 07:49:28 <planetmaker> how important is it whether your grf is 5 MByte or 7? 07:49:33 <planetmaker> or 10? 07:49:46 <supermop> isn't pinapple 160 or so? 07:49:52 <andythenorth> itâs important that itâs not 100s 07:50:10 <planetmaker> Yes, it is. Takes me a few 10 seconds to download. Do I care? 07:50:22 <peter1138> YETI is 160MB. 07:50:34 <andythenorth> how big is Zbase? 07:50:36 <peter1138> Pineapple is 200MB :D 07:50:50 <peter1138> 328MB 07:51:18 <planetmaker> 313MB 07:51:18 <peter1138> But ok, yes, you can do that. 07:51:33 <supermop> ok 07:52:08 <peter1138> You might even be able to use registers and the like to avoid needing hundreds of layouts. 07:52:58 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 07:53:02 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ 07:53:20 <peter1138> Basically that is loading the CPU instead of memory. 07:53:22 <supermop> other goal i had was to have some kind of switch in the nml so that when building terrace house A or whatever it picks facade Y or Z based on something, random, or tile coordinates or whatever? 07:53:29 <planetmaker> supermop, the point is, it's easier to programme. And easier and faster for OpenTTD itself, if it doesn't need to compose each house of many sprites. 07:53:30 <peter1138> (How much CPU, I don't know) 07:53:41 <planetmaker> and cpu is mostly the limiting factor in OpenTTD 07:54:55 <supermop> other option is to write some script for rhino to randomly composite house parts 07:55:44 <planetmaker> supermop, you would not even need to do that in your renderer. Just have the renderer create the parts. And combine the parts in a simple 2D image processing programme 07:56:21 <planetmaker> thus no need to render zillion houses, just a bit composition in post-processing by combining different layers or hower you go for combining different house parts to a single sprite 07:56:43 <peter1138> Hmm, 100MB in a running game. 07:56:53 <peter1138> Meanwhile, firefox is at 1GB :o 07:57:05 <peter1138> gnome-shell is 961MB... but that's clearly some memory leak 07:57:06 <planetmaker> see. We can bloat our sprite cache by another factor of 10 :) 07:57:23 <supermop> hah 07:57:34 <peter1138> rhythmbox 310MB... pulseaudio 213MB 07:57:41 <peter1138> why the fuck is everything so bloated these days 07:58:03 <supermop> the metabolist in me was just fantasizing about dynamically/randomly generated buildings 07:58:51 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-33-227.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:59:18 <planetmaker> supermop, it's well possible. So don't let us stop you :) 08:00:05 <supermop> it's really TTo's fault as the nakagin building in the original graphics got me interested in metabolist architecture as a kid in 94 08:01:19 <argoneus> good morning train friends 08:01:19 <supermop> now i find myself so taken with the movement that i've made three pilgrimages to the real building and try to shoehorn metabolist ideas into any hobby project i come up with 08:02:10 <planetmaker> :D 08:02:24 <planetmaker> good enough reason, I say 08:03:03 <supermop> so it's CS's fault i got a degree in such a silly profession 08:03:20 <supermop> or simon foster's? 08:04:02 <supermop> i think it is time for a bite to eat and a beer at the pub 08:04:20 <supermop> appropriately named Tramway Hotel 08:04:54 <supermop> i'll have more stupid questions in an hour or so 08:07:43 <V453000> supermop doing them buildings? :) 08:08:51 <andythenorth> huzzah 08:08:54 <andythenorth> sprite theft ftw https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/6720/broadrock.png 08:09:18 <peter1138> Lowres sprites ;( 08:11:15 <LordAro> just zoom out 08:11:34 <peter1138> Then they're lowres and invisible. 08:15:02 *** Celestar1 [~Celestar@mnch-5d877829.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 08:21:02 *** Celestar [~Celestar@mnch-5d877829.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 08:21:02 *** Celestar1 [~Celestar@mnch-5d877829.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:23:15 *** Celestar [~Celestar@mnch-5d877829.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [] 08:23:53 *** Celestar [~Celestar@mnch-5d877829.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 08:26:46 *** Celestar [~Celestar@mnch-5d877829.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [] 08:28:09 *** Celestar [~Celestar@mnch-5d877829.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 08:39:23 *** Celestar [~Celestar@mnch-5d877829.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:39:35 *** Celestar [~Celestar@mnch-5d877829.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 08:50:59 *** SHOTbyGUN [shotbygun@213-186-253-83.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 08:54:45 <andythenorth> bah 08:54:50 <andythenorth> \ / view compression 08:54:59 * andythenorth is never sure whatâs right 08:55:32 <supermop> ok 08:55:36 <supermop> beer consumed 08:55:57 <supermop> andythenorth: beer is right 08:56:03 <Eddi|zuHause> the \ / views are the "master" 08:56:35 <supermop> V453000: sort of yes 08:56:47 <Eddi|zuHause> the | ââ views are distorted 08:58:03 <supermop> mostly out of a sense that documenting local vernacular architecture will some how look like i did something worthwhile while here in the addenda of my portfolio 08:58:22 <peter1138> Yes, \ / should be considered canon. 08:58:31 <supermop> so mostly bullshitting as it were, which my profession is founded upon 08:58:44 <peter1138> Forget the 32 pixel bullcrap that we got foisted with :S 08:59:17 <andythenorth> hmm 08:59:30 <andythenorth> but everyone draws the â first :P 08:59:42 <supermop> i didnt really plan on rendering before talking the other evening though - i find getting textures and lighting right to be a huge pain 09:00:12 <V453000> actually I always start with / 09:00:13 <V453000> always 09:00:24 <V453000> - can get anything done 09:00:37 <supermop> i've only drawn buildings so me as well 09:00:37 <V453000> \ and / is the tough part 09:00:44 <V453000> XD 09:00:55 <andythenorth> yes 09:00:59 <andythenorth> fricking hate them 09:01:03 *** Celestar [~Celestar@mnch-5d877829.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:01:05 <V453000> supermop textures and lighting is easy 09:01:16 <V453000> you just put one global light and done 09:01:24 <V453000> texturing is more tedious, depends on the building 09:01:25 <peter1138> Also that PixelTool doesn't help. 09:01:32 <V453000> for box-ish things it is super fast 09:01:42 <andythenorth> also, for articulated trucks (trailer overlaps hauler), should I use short vehicle lengths? 09:01:44 <V453000> non-box things can get a little bit complicated 09:01:44 <supermop> finding good free high res textures that don't repeat in an obvious way is tricky 09:01:46 <andythenorth> or just dibble the offsets? 09:01:59 <V453000> yeah, hence I bought membership at cgtextures.com 09:02:20 <supermop> in school i would draw in ink or charcoal buildings i had modeled in rhino for presentation 09:03:08 <supermop> i also can't get my head round how things are 'skinned' in more conventional games 09:03:18 <planetmaker> cgtextures is non-free :( 09:03:47 <supermop> the skins always look distorted in a way that i don't know how anyone would produce them correctly 09:03:52 <V453000> skinning is generally meant to be rigging, look for mapping 09:03:53 <V453000> yeah 09:03:56 <V453000> unwrapping UVW 09:04:03 <V453000> planetmaker, good things are not for free, yes. 09:04:11 <V453000> they have free mode where you get lower resolutions 09:04:12 <V453000> might suffice 09:04:34 <supermop> ive gone out to take photos of bricks before actually 09:04:42 *** yorick [~yorick@ip51cd0513.speed.planet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:04:44 <planetmaker> their license is explicit in being non-free 09:04:51 <V453000> that is an option bug getting it to tile is not very easy 09:05:00 <V453000> quite 09:05:06 <planetmaker> but if good stuff is not free, maybe we should start charging for OpenTTD. 09:05:17 <planetmaker> 45⬠might be appropriate per copy. Updates 5⬠each 09:05:28 <planetmaker> buy a developer license for 200⬠/ year 09:05:39 <V453000> that is something different I think 09:05:45 * andythenorth hates everything to do with offsets 09:05:47 <planetmaker> get updates included in that, though. And preview of next version. It's exactly the same thing 09:06:20 <V453000> you *can* search through other websites and find tileable high-res textures 09:06:29 <V453000> OR you can pay to someone who bases his living on creating them 09:06:32 <V453000> what is so bad about it 09:07:09 <planetmaker> I would pay for access to the site. The bad thing is I may not freely use the textures 09:07:10 <Rubidium> planetmaker: don't forget the "owners" of bananas vetting each and every upload 09:07:29 <planetmaker> Rubidium, sure, 30% goes to us on all income from newgrfs. Good thinking 09:08:00 <V453000> re-using these textures to make them free would defeat the purpose of selling the site membership 09:08:18 <planetmaker> V453000, thus it's not the same thing. You not only pay for the service, but you're not even free to use the things to find as you see fit 09:08:33 *** Seifur [~Seifur@0001f6e2.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Seifur] 09:08:40 <V453000> I believe you can use them as you see fit, you just cant assign them a free license 09:08:47 <V453000> if I understand it correctly 09:09:16 <planetmaker> which means I can't use them as I see fit. It restricts my freedom to share the stuff I do as I see fit 09:09:23 <Rubidium> sounds like the Model-T Ford. You can get it in any colour you like, as long as it's black 09:09:29 <planetmaker> yeah 09:09:47 <V453000> :D 09:10:06 <V453000> that is the same as if it was legal to buy a music CD and re-distribute it freely 09:10:35 *** yorick [~yorick@ip51cd0513.speed.planet.nl] has joined #openttd 09:10:59 <V453000> open licensing is great for things you create, but for things you purchase it just doesnt make sense 09:11:03 <planetmaker> yeah. we actually do that with openttd. you can distribute it freely. People do that with a lot of software. 09:11:16 <planetmaker> err, that doesn't make sense, V453000 09:11:29 <Rubidium> V453000: but you're not buying music. Buying music is for people with loads of cash, e.g. Michael Jackson bought the Beatles music. You can merely hope to buy a license to play the music 09:11:51 <V453000> yes because you Create it, you didnt Buy it from some source which makes a living out of getting money from it. 09:12:19 <V453000> fine, so I am buying license to merely use the textures 09:12:39 <V453000> I still dont see why should I ever be able to re-distribute them freely 09:13:11 <V453000> what is the difference between that and piracy? 09:13:15 <supermop> if you use them in a render and distribute that freely, it would be a violation 09:14:02 <planetmaker> V453000, ok, so we just continue to sell openttd? why should we distribute it freely? 09:14:30 <V453000> yeah that is questionnable supermop 09:14:33 <planetmaker> we make a programme. they make a texture. same thing really 09:14:35 <Eddi|zuHause> the "creator" of music is often distinct from the autotuned puppet that jumps up and down on the stage 09:14:39 <V453000> planetmaker which source did you buy it from 09:15:12 <V453000> as I said, things you create makes perfect sense to make open source 09:15:14 <andythenorth> why donât we sell OpenTTD? 09:15:22 <Rubidium> buying has nothing to do with whether you may (re)distribute something 09:15:27 <V453000> but if I sell something, why should I allow people to give it to anybody else freely? 09:15:36 <planetmaker> V453000, why? cgtextures just made those textures, too. So they could share it for free, too? 09:15:40 <V453000> of course I want other people to buy it the same way from me 09:15:56 <V453000> sure, that is true 09:16:45 <V453000> that is just the difference of openttd being a hobby and him creating textures being a job 09:16:46 <Rubidium> for example, there are quite a few libraries for which you can basically buy a "do whatever you want with it"-license, but the free one is GPL-ish 09:16:52 * andythenorth is baffled 09:16:56 <andythenorth> what are we arguing about? 09:16:57 <V453000> hm :) 09:17:01 *** Celestar [~Celestar@mnch-5d877829.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 09:17:21 <Eddi|zuHause> topics are overrated. 09:17:30 <Rubidium> and to be honest, those libraries are ways for people to earn a living 09:17:51 <Eddi|zuHause> just reply to random line, without context 09:18:49 <andythenorth> I like the blue one 09:19:00 <V453000> I am not sure what are we arguing about either 09:19:05 <V453000> I dared buy textures 09:19:13 <V453000> -> problem 09:20:05 <Rubidium> having said that, plenty of people in the open source software business are earning more than enough to sustain their way of live by providing paid services 09:20:05 * andythenorth hmms 09:20:18 <andythenorth> I am not setting custom offsets for every fricking articulated truck 09:20:26 <andythenorth> there has to be a better way 09:20:29 <V453000> you are andythenorth :) 09:20:41 <Eddi|zuHause> there is a better way: proper templates 09:21:06 <Rubidium> also... buying textures isn't a problem, but depending on the license it can become a major pain-in-the-arse for others to help you with your models and/or to get the "compiled" by some public system (assuming NewGRFs) 09:21:08 <supermop> andythenorth: sell offsets as service 09:22:20 <V453000> yes it basically means I cannot give you my full source, only sprites 09:22:40 <V453000> OR a white model 09:23:14 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: that also means you can't release your set under GPL at all 09:23:19 <V453000> which I dont 09:23:54 <peter1138> andythenorth, make them all the same size, then the offsets will be the same 09:23:57 <V453000> I believe CC BY SA allows not to give full source 09:24:03 <peter1138> andythenorth, also, sprite aligner :D 09:24:18 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: which also means no GPL set can include YETI graphics 09:24:25 <V453000> yep, too bad 09:24:34 <andythenorth> all trucks can have standard sizes 09:24:36 <peter1138> No yetis :S 09:24:50 <V453000> then those sets have to use CC BY SA 09:24:57 <V453000> which I dont see why would that be a big problem 09:25:24 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: have you ever followed a license discussion on the forum? 09:25:26 <peter1138> Ewww iroon 09:25:30 <peter1138> -o 09:25:35 <V453000> not to a large extent, no Eddi 09:25:42 <V453000> but what do you want me to do differently? 09:25:51 <V453000> spend ages searching for textures? no thanks 09:26:05 <V453000> release newgrf without open license? nice 09:26:21 <peter1138> Wait... you paid for those textures? 09:26:25 <V453000> of course 09:26:29 <peter1138> Even the grass? 09:26:33 <V453000> of course 09:26:35 <V453000> everything 09:26:38 <peter1138> Because that grass is damned ugly. 09:26:48 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: they pretty much all go "we can't ask person X anymore about the license, we need to throw out their stuff and start over" 09:26:50 <V453000> well that is mainly because it is not used very well peter 09:26:51 <peter1138> I assumed that was a placeholder for decent grass :S 09:26:53 <andythenorth> if I went renderised, Iâd just buy models and textures 09:27:05 <andythenorth> otherwise, why? 09:27:15 <V453000> yes Eddi because their stuff was without any license, not with GPL or CC 09:27:17 <andythenorth> making decent textures takes *fricking* ages 09:27:28 <andythenorth> easily as long as making pixel art 09:27:34 <andythenorth> and then models have to be made too 09:27:53 <andythenorth> the reason most of the rendered stuff looks shit is that itâs very time consuming to do well 09:27:55 <V453000> modeled / mapped / textures / displacement maps / ... 09:28:03 <andythenorth> rigged for animation 09:28:09 <V453000> yes not even mentioning that 09:28:11 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: anyway, the main difference between CC and GPL is that with CC you're better off when you are the only person working on it, and GPL better if multiple people work on it 09:28:29 <V453000> idk we are two working on YETI, what problem do we have? 09:28:52 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: when you leave and another person wants to take over 09:29:12 <V453000> like wants to create models instead of me 09:29:16 <V453000> sure that would be a problem 09:29:17 <andythenorth> otoh 09:29:36 <andythenorth> last year I was going to buy ~£2000 of stock photos, to use in a product 09:29:38 <andythenorth> but 09:29:45 <andythenorth> although the license included âfor internet use' 09:29:54 <V453000> at the same time what person will buy 00 3ds max and 00 Vray 09:30:00 <andythenorth> it also forbade uploading it to any server or electronic retrieval mechanis, 09:30:04 <andythenorth> mechanism * 09:30:07 <V453000> to create newgrfs for openttd 09:30:09 <andythenorth> so ummm 09:30:22 <V453000> paying 0 for textures is the last expense then 09:30:37 <V453000> without all those 3 things my source is worthless to anybody who wants to continue 09:30:43 <Rubidium> V453000: you definitely need to figure out copyright assignment, otherwise things get really fishy with respect to who is allowed to release and such 09:30:56 <V453000> ? 09:31:05 <andythenorth> who are the textures licensed to? 09:31:08 <V453000> me? 09:31:14 <andythenorth> ok, so youâre allowed to release 09:31:17 <andythenorth> probly 09:31:17 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: that's like asking "who will buy a computer just for working on a GPL project" 09:31:20 <V453000> well the only person who has my credentials to bananas I believe is me 09:31:29 <andythenorth> you and the NSA 09:31:29 <V453000> Eddi|zuHause: yeah that is true 09:31:30 <argoneus> that is what NSA wants you to believe 09:31:35 <andythenorth> beat you 09:31:39 <Rubidium> V453000: after all, you claim CC-BY-SA for your bits, the other person does as well... so neither of you is legally allowed to merge both sets of bits into one thing 09:31:58 <argoneus> andythenorth: I blme me having twice as long of a sentence 09:32:00 <argoneus> blame* 09:32:03 <V453000> so what would you suggest Rubi? :d 09:32:03 <supermop> http://sectioncut.com/collections/mayangs-free-textures/ 09:32:05 <supermop> ? 09:32:15 <argoneus> don't use creative commons for code 09:32:20 <andythenorth> argoneus: mine was longer, but the NSA took some bits out (redaction) 09:32:35 <andythenorth> I would suggest coffee 09:32:52 <andythenorth> and fixing my offsets 09:32:54 <andythenorth> thanks 09:33:04 <V453000> XD 09:33:52 <Rubidium> V453000: some sort of license between the two of you that you may do at least modifications and compilations of eachothers work for the project, and that you both may distribute the complete set under license X to others 09:34:09 <supermop> V453000: you can avoid issues with non-free texture by just individually modeling each brick and granual of motar 09:34:16 <V453000> that sounds quite reasonably Rubidium 09:34:41 <V453000> I will discuss it with Sylf 09:34:46 <andythenorth> the problem with you lot, is that you know if you donât help me, Iâll go and figure it out myself :( 09:34:48 <Rubidium> V453000: it probably doesn't need to be much, but it's kinda required to stay legal. Another trick could be copyright assignment, but that's probably more cumbersome especially decising who gets the copyright 09:34:57 <V453000> andythenorth: XD 09:35:04 <V453000> I understand, thanks for the hint :) 09:35:14 <argoneus> https://tldrlegal.com 09:35:17 <argoneus> I like this site 09:35:57 * andythenorth back to bed 09:37:28 * V453000 lunch 09:44:23 <supermop> anyone want to play some mhl mp? 09:46:54 <Sacro> pbimttd? 09:47:48 *** davidstrauss [~quassel@2001:4800:7813:516:62f:ce48:ff05:1b82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:48:24 <supermop> ????? 09:49:43 *** davidstrauss [~quassel@2001:4800:7813:516:62f:ce48:ff05:1b82] has joined #openttd 09:51:00 <Eddi|zuHause> don't even try... 09:51:08 <peter1138> :D 09:51:44 <peter1138> Play by sending a floppy disk in the post... 09:51:57 <peter1138> Apparently people used to do that. I never bothered. 09:53:34 <supermop> i once tried a 'null modem' game of tto with my neighbor 09:54:26 <Eddi|zuHause> i heard it didn't have any desync checking at all 09:55:22 <Eddi|zuHause> so you could happily play on with a person having an airport on one computer and not having it on the other computer 09:56:46 <SHOTbyGUN> soo, how can I make this game harder :D ? I set ALL costs to double with BaseCosts mod, but still got 100milj+ cash after one day of playing :( 09:57:33 <SHOTbyGUN> he hard patch is out of date am I right? 09:57:51 <andythenorth> hard is boring 09:57:51 <Eddi|zuHause> enable infrastructure maintenance 09:57:56 <andythenorth> try a goal script instead 09:57:58 <SHOTbyGUN> its enabled already =) 09:59:02 <SHOTbyGUN> maybe I am just genious playing this game =) 09:59:19 <SHOTbyGUN> but I guess I try that goal script next :o 09:59:57 <Eddi|zuHause> the game is just terrible at balancing money 10:00:12 <Eddi|zuHause> find another way to measure your success :p 10:00:23 <andythenorth> also, it would be tedious to not make money 10:02:40 <supermop> andythenorth: i find that true in my personal experience 10:03:22 <SHOTbyGUN> yeah, money works great until you git 10milj+ ... I think taxing mod would be great where you could tax income 10% and tax profit 10%-50% that would balance the multiplayer experience =) 10:04:01 <SHOTbyGUN> I suppose there is no API for editing money with NewGRF:s :( ? 10:04:23 <SHOTbyGUN> what I looked there was just few hooks 10:04:42 <argoneus> would it be possible 10:04:51 <argoneus> to implement a "max station walking" config option? 10:04:59 <argoneus> so my station could be 20 tiles wide, but max 1 tile of station walking 10:05:16 <argoneus> so maximum 1 gap in the stations 10:05:25 <Eddi|zuHause> SHOTbyGUN: generally that kind of thing would be a job for a game script 10:05:43 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: no 10:06:07 <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: there is no way to check if a station is contiguous? 10:06:44 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: at least nobody ever implemented one 10:07:21 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: but what would that solve? you just end up with people building chains of road stops... 10:07:35 <argoneus> well, right now 10:07:41 <argoneus> if the max distance is 20 10:07:57 <argoneus> oh, wait 10:07:58 <argoneus> you are right 10:08:09 <argoneus> people could just make millions of bus stations in cities 10:08:21 <argoneus> for the same effect 10:08:37 <argoneus> I just don't like it 10:08:43 <argoneus> when people make a railroad station outside the city 10:08:49 <argoneus> and a few bus stations all around the city 10:08:51 <Eddi|zuHause> the world is not fair. 10:08:58 <argoneus> is there no way to prevent that? 10:09:04 <Eddi|zuHause> no 10:09:20 <Eddi|zuHause> except making the station spread ridiculously low 10:11:30 <andythenorth> station walking is a valid tactic 10:12:05 <Eddi|zuHause> also, you use the term "station walking" incorrectly. "station walking" (before directly making disjoint stations possible) was a way to extend the station by placing road stops to your desired location, and then removing the road stops inbetween 10:12:26 <Eddi|zuHause> the "walking" part referencing these in-between steps 10:12:27 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, probably some people don't know about ctrl :) 10:12:48 <argoneus> wait 10:12:53 <argoneus> how far could you station walk? 10:12:57 <argoneus> I mean 10:13:00 <andythenorth> up to max spread 10:13:04 <peter1138> Whatever station spread is set to. 10:13:06 <argoneus> if you removed the road stations inbetween 10:13:10 <argoneus> then station spread lowered again 10:13:10 <argoneus> no? 10:13:16 <Eddi|zuHause> no 10:13:18 <argoneus> ohh 10:13:19 <argoneus> wait 10:13:23 <argoneus> you had to keep the one next to the industry 10:13:24 <argoneus> silly me 10:13:28 <Eddi|zuHause> "spread" is the distance between the outermost tiles 10:13:44 <argoneus> hm 10:13:45 <peter1138> Remove spread all together. 10:13:48 <argoneus> I thought it was station walking 10:13:55 <argoneus> because people could walk between the stations 10:13:57 <argoneus> for the same effect 10:13:57 <peter1138> Make catchment area based on the number of station tiles. 10:14:20 <peter1138> Then the only reason to spread is to make transfers easier 10:14:31 <supermop> argoneus: that would be a neat and expensive feature for cargodist 10:15:00 <argoneus> I wish cargodist actually did something 10:15:07 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: to visualize the "walking" part: in the beginning you were only allowed to have one bus stop and one truck stop per station, so you had to alternate between bus and truck stop for "walking" 10:15:08 <peter1138> before drive-through road stops, station walking was hard 10:15:29 *** Yotson [~Yotson@2001:980:6ac8:1:55b9:adb9:eb8d:c75f] has joined #openttd 10:16:34 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: or do it like train fever: model each passenger from source to destination and back :p 10:16:58 <peter1138> cargodest? 10:17:14 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: even worse than that 10:17:26 *** fjb is now known as Guest1730 10:17:27 *** fjb [~frank@000158aa.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 10:17:36 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: a passenger calculates the time that his route takes him (including walking and waiting for the train) 10:17:55 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: if it's > 10 minutes (of game time), the route is discarded, and a shorter route is tried 10:18:26 <peter1138> heh 10:19:44 <Eddi|zuHause> if a train travels for 5 minutes, and a train leaves every 2 minutes, that leaves 3 minutes for walking 10:20:16 <supermop> thats a pretty nice commute 10:20:39 <supermop> although i had it beat when i lived in chinatown 10:21:55 <Eddi|zuHause> cargo follows a similar logic, but i think i read it doesn't consider the waiting time 10:22:19 <argoneus> I just thought of something 10:22:28 <argoneus> you know how trains get old and need replacing, right 10:22:31 <argoneus> why not railroads too? 10:22:46 <argoneus> I'd imagine it might look cool to see sprites of rusty railroads that are barely used 10:22:52 <argoneus> and trains crashing randomly when going over them 10:23:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i would immediately disable that feature... 10:23:17 <argoneus> people disable trains breaking down too 10:23:21 <argoneus> but it might be fun 10:23:22 * argoneus shrugs 10:23:39 <supermop> also drivers should be careless and pass signals at danger if you are not careful in hiring and training them 10:23:49 <argoneus> they already stop in the middle 10:23:56 <argoneus> if the stars align 10:24:06 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: "fun" as in "every 10 years, drag&drop the 'upgrade rail' tool over the whole map"? 10:24:08 <supermop> as well as providing regular company picnics to boost morale 10:24:17 <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: you do that with trains already 10:24:20 <argoneus> there's a feature for that 10:24:22 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: no of course not 10:24:45 <argoneus> well, then 10:24:47 *** Guest1730 [~frank@000158aa.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:24:51 <supermop> you spend 10 years of every 10 years with the MOW crew closing sections of track 10:24:58 <argoneus> railroads get rusty if no train passed over them in the past year 10:25:08 <argoneus> then you'll also have help for load balancing 10:25:22 <argoneus> or in the past X years 10:25:33 <argoneus> though that sounds like a bitch to code 10:25:38 <argoneus> actually not really 10:25:44 <argoneus> that sounds really simple 10:25:58 <argoneus> just add a counter to every railroad tile and set it back to 0 when a train passes over it 10:25:59 <Eddi|zuHause> well, there's an old "grass over unused tracks" patch 10:26:01 * argoneus shrugs 10:26:03 <supermop> then a labor dispute breaks out while working on the mainline and the workers strike for 3 months leaving you with a single track and incorrect signalling 10:26:45 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: i'm reading a bit of frustration :p 10:26:50 <argoneus> supermop: why does that sound russian 10:27:04 <supermop> in the mean time, all of your passengers get fed up with the delay and buy cars to just drive to work 10:27:26 <argoneus> hm, you just reminded me 10:27:29 <argoneus> does simcity have railroads? 10:27:31 <argoneus> or just roads 10:27:41 <argoneus> 4 that is 10:27:50 <argoneus> (the best one) 10:27:55 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 10:28:28 <supermop> soon your company manager picture is weeping as he is left penniless - the board of directors is dismissing him over the poor handling of the situation 10:28:59 <Eddi|zuHause> but station capacity is a pain, because it makes no difference of whether people get on/off, or pass through, or just are in the general area 10:29:12 <argoneus> that's another good feature 10:29:28 <argoneus> every 10 years, all company owners vote on the weakest director, and whoever receives most votes is closed down 10:29:52 <argoneus> I should go to EA with my ideas 10:30:55 <argoneus> an actual question, though 10:31:07 <argoneus> have there ever been thoughts about connecting the website account to the game account? 10:31:11 <argoneus> or generally the game having an account system 10:31:15 <argoneus> with experience, levels, etc.? 10:31:24 <supermop> citizens celebrate as all of the 'company founder' statues are torn down 10:31:26 <argoneus> (along with keeping the "guest name" option, as it doesn't alter gameplay) 10:31:39 <argoneus> or is this something no one cares about 10:32:24 * argoneus would enjoy the "have 5000 trains" achievement 10:32:42 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: at any time in history, a central authentication system was discouraged for various reasons 10:33:25 <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: is that mostly because of developer work needed and central server maintenance costs? 10:33:28 <andythenorth> stuff like XP is meaningless, due to combinatorial explosion of maps, settings, newgrfs, GS 10:33:58 * andythenorth -> nap time 10:33:59 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has left #openttd [] 10:34:48 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: user inconvenience, data security, maintenance efforts, "the evil people are taking over", ... 10:35:04 <Eddi|zuHause> the list of reasons why not to do it is loooooong 10:47:43 *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@95.76.27.245] has joined #openttd 10:55:11 <peter1138> argoneus, "game account" ? 10:55:28 <peter1138> Yeah, what Eddi|zuHause said. 10:55:49 <peter1138> Also, consider infrastructure maintenance to be paying for track upkeep. 10:56:13 <argoneus> now that I think about it 10:56:21 <argoneus> servers can implement their own account tracking if they want, right 10:56:27 <argoneus> it's not hard, the things are there 10:56:49 <peter1138> Not really. 10:57:31 <argoneus> you join 10:57:38 <argoneus> server queries you for password if name is taken 10:57:44 <argoneus> you pm the password, it either accepts or kicks you 10:57:49 <argoneus> and stats are tracked server side 10:57:51 <argoneus> can't it work like this? 10:57:54 *** supermop [~daniel_er@d110-33-191-31.sun801.vic.optusnet.com.au] has left #openttd [] 10:59:26 <peter1138> Possibly. 10:59:57 *** supermop [~daniel_er@d110-33-191-31.sun801.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 11:00:40 <planetmaker> actually T B voiced such ideas of allowing user login. But time, sweet time :) 11:01:02 <argoneus> T B? 11:02:26 <planetmaker> well, the guy who made the AI / GS framework 11:02:40 <planetmaker> and a lot of other stuff 11:02:58 <argoneus> oh 11:03:31 <planetmaker> who wrote bananas, who wrote web translator and the whole website ;) 11:03:58 <argoneus> sounds like a true bro 11:05:48 <planetmaker> partially. rather a true brain 11:06:24 <argoneus> ohhh 11:06:29 <argoneus> so that's what TB is 11:06:35 *** tycoondemon [~ashnohoe@D97BA869.cm-3-4c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 11:06:52 <liq3> o.o. increased height is crazy. 255 high maps wow. 11:07:06 <argoneus> can anyone post a picture? 11:07:14 <argoneus> I can't play right now (at work), but I am curious 11:07:21 <liq3> of the increased height? 11:07:26 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd probably settle for 64 or somesuch 11:07:37 <argoneus> yes liq3 11:07:59 <V453000> tbh the extra heights in extreme values just create straight up mountain 11:08:04 <liq3> yeh sure 11:08:08 <liq3> yeh lol. 11:08:11 <V453000> would be nice if it was more varied like still hill, but not all the time to the top 11:08:18 <V453000> great start though 11:08:28 <Eddi|zuHause> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Thomson%20Co.,%2016.%20Sep%201922.png <- very old game i had 11:08:54 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd 11:08:54 <liq3> argoneus: http://i.imgur.com/uOUY40w.png 11:09:00 * andythenorth needs a bigger screen 11:09:02 <andythenorth> for the bigger GUI 11:09:08 <argoneus> oh wow 11:09:10 <peter1138> andythenorth, hahaha 11:09:11 <argoneus> nice 11:09:15 <V453000> well yeah thats just bullshit 11:09:19 <argoneus> liq3: what does it look like zoomed in? 11:09:20 <peter1138> andythenorth, same :( 11:09:21 <argoneus> can you even see the top? 11:09:22 <V453000> land not useful for anything 11:09:27 <liq3> argoneus: no :D 11:09:31 <peter1138> 2x is just a little bit too much at 1680x1050 :( 11:09:33 <V453000> can create some spectacular arctic scenarios yeah 11:09:41 <andythenorth> rivers are still crap 11:09:42 <peter1138> it's better overall though 11:09:55 <andythenorth> peter1138: industry window fills my screen 11:09:57 <peter1138> Rivers should be carved. 11:10:06 <peter1138> Try the airport construction window. 11:10:10 <andythenorth> I have 1280x960 or something 11:10:11 <argoneus> it's funny how you can just delte a river 11:10:13 <argoneus> just delete it 11:10:14 <argoneus> and it's gone 11:10:26 <argoneus> but the part before and after still exists 11:10:41 <Eddi|zuHause> it flows underground! 11:10:47 <liq3> argoneus: maybe they put giant tunnels underground :D 11:10:56 <andythenorth> oh cdist 11:10:59 <andythenorth> you are funny 11:11:26 <argoneus> mfw andythenorth has went to bed and to nap about 7 times in the past hour 11:11:30 <peter1138> Frustrating :( 11:12:03 <andythenorth> I have a mine with 648t output 11:12:05 <peter1138> Cdest Cdest! 11:12:14 <andythenorth> cdist is routing most of that to a 60t train 11:12:17 <V453000> yacd yacd 11:12:18 <andythenorth> instead of the 3x 240t trains 11:13:07 <andythenorth> there must be some trick to win at this 11:13:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Warning: reality distortion field detected. V is pro "destinations" 11:13:24 <argoneus> like not transport one coal to multiple power plants 11:13:25 <liq3> I feel like orders really aren't featureful enough for cdist. :< 11:14:11 <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: I've been wondering for a while now 11:14:23 <argoneus> is zuHause your status, like bob|afk, or is it part of your name? (and what does it mean?) 11:14:43 <andythenorth> hmm 11:14:45 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: it's the location of the computer that i'm using. 11:14:49 <V453000> sarcasm Eddi 11:14:54 <Eddi|zuHause> means "at home" 11:15:01 <V453000> but yacd was considerably less retarded than cdist 11:15:03 <argoneus> oh 11:15:19 <liq3> what's yacd? 11:15:21 <V453000> except the ultimate mechanism was again station-station-station connection, even more than cdist XD 11:15:25 <andythenorth> yacd is dead 11:15:29 <andythenorth> somehow my config got blitzed, effect of distance got set back to 100% 11:15:30 <argoneus> sounds like yet another cargo distribution 11:15:31 <argoneus> or something 11:15:35 <andythenorth> it was 11:15:38 <andythenorth> exactly 11:15:46 <Eddi|zuHause> no 11:15:49 <Eddi|zuHause> it was destinations 11:15:52 <Eddi|zuHause> not distribution 11:15:59 <V453000> bad regardless XD 11:16:01 <andythenorth> now itâs just dead 11:16:08 <argoneus> reminds me of JASS from warcraft3 11:16:16 <argoneus> just another scripting system 11:16:29 <argoneus> what's with these uncreative names 11:16:38 <V453000> but having cargo want somewhere was considerably nicer than havint it want somewhere After you give the possibility 11:16:40 <peter1138> YAPF... yet another path finder... 11:16:55 <Eddi|zuHause> "destinations" is "people want to go from A to B, let's figure out how to get there". and "distribution" is "X% of people go in this general direction, let's see where they end up" 11:16:55 <argoneus> I mean look at programming languages 11:16:58 <peter1138> yacd was nicer 11:16:59 <argoneus> you find creative names like 11:17:07 <argoneus> err, C.. wait, C#, no... 11:17:11 <andythenorth> maybe I have to delete this small train 11:17:31 <andythenorth> mostly with cdist I find that point-to-point is required 11:17:37 <andythenorth> e.g. primary only goes to one secondary 11:17:40 <argoneus> I found 11:17:44 <argoneus> that cargodist works great for passengers 11:17:46 <argoneus> but not so great for cargo 11:17:59 <peter1138> I don't think I have it enabled for cargo, indeed. 11:17:59 <andythenorth> itâs worth it for not having to do transfers manually 11:18:04 <peter1138> Only passengers & mail. 11:18:05 <Eddi|zuHause> at some point i really wanted to make a language called "Db", because "C#" feels so unnatural to my musical education 11:18:08 <andythenorth> but you have to totally change play style 11:18:14 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: but i wouldn't rent a house from which i could not easily get to my work 11:18:17 <andythenorth> and FIRS really needs re-designed for cdist 11:18:23 <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: you must like F# then 11:18:36 <supermop> to an extentreal humans only want to go where they can get to 11:19:10 <andythenorth> itâs also weird how cdist will leave cargo sitting at a transfer station not loading 11:19:16 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: as i once put it: give me a tune with 8 'b' over one with 4 '#' 11:19:20 <andythenorth> even though there is a vehicle loading for the next hop 11:19:33 <andythenorth> I wouldnât mind, except I donât know what the win condition is 11:19:38 <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: I don't understand 11:19:43 <andythenorth> I donât know how Iâm supposed to make this work 11:20:02 <andythenorth> oh itâs not waiting 11:20:04 <andythenorth> Iâm on planned view 11:20:08 <supermop> andythenorth: ive never had much trouble with firs and cd 11:20:25 <argoneus> I wonder 11:20:35 <argoneus> would it be possible to implement something like a "schematizer" ? 11:20:38 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: in musical notation, the same notes can have different names. so "C-sharp" is the same not as "D-flat" 11:20:46 <Eddi|zuHause> *note 11:20:53 <argoneus> like, it makes a graph with all the active industries, and colored links between them according to players 11:20:57 <andythenorth> Iâm ging to delete a train 11:21:02 <argoneus> so you could tell from a graph who is transporting what where, would that be feasible? 11:21:07 <supermop> i have a bit more trouble with all of the food i've made solely of cardboard boxes 11:21:29 <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: oh 11:21:42 <argoneus> so X# is always Db? 11:21:44 <argoneus> Yb * 11:21:51 <Eddi|zuHause> no 11:21:51 * argoneus has no concept of musical theory 11:22:14 <Eddi|zuHause> some notes only have a half-tone between them, so E# = F, and Fb = E 11:22:39 <argoneus> why would anyone use Fb instead of E? 11:22:46 <Eddi|zuHause> it happens 11:23:12 <andythenorth> hmm 11:23:14 <argoneus> anyway 11:23:21 <andythenorth> deleting the train worked, cdist only has one destination for this cargo now 11:23:24 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: the towns in your screenshot look a bit absurd 11:23:30 <andythenorth> so balancing is a non-issue 11:23:35 <argoneus> is it difficult to parse ottd savegames? 11:23:38 <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes for notational purposes it is better to switch the F->Fb once, and then have alternating Fb and Eb, instead of switching between E and Eb 11:23:41 <argoneus> like, is the format any difficult to read? 11:24:01 <supermop> not as much as the sawmill hanging on the side of a precipice 11:24:04 <argoneus> as in, could one find what cargo player X is transporting from parsing a savefile? 11:24:23 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: the format is simple, but a lot of required metadata is only documented in the code, not part of the savegame 11:24:25 <argoneus> or is savefile just raw compressed info about tiles etc 11:24:49 <argoneus> oh 11:25:42 <peter1138> It's binary. 11:26:17 <argoneus> doesn't sound like a problem if you have the spec 11:26:56 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: it's probably easier to start up openttd, and ask it stuff about the loaded savegame via the admin port 11:27:19 <peter1138> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UWtcSvtiQw The F# song 11:27:24 <argoneus> I just had an idea for a program 11:27:28 <argoneus> that analyzes a savegame 11:27:35 <argoneus> and makes a graph or such 11:27:39 <argoneus> sounds difficult but possible? 11:27:52 <argoneus> I mean 11:28:05 <argoneus> there already is a program that analyzes a savegame and lets you ride and make trains on it 11:29:31 <SpComb> I want something that exports giant-screenshot pixel coordinates for various towns, stations etc on the map 11:29:32 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: that is really painful :p 11:32:03 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: there have been patches that export graphs from a savegame. 11:32:14 <Eddi|zuHause> or minimap screenshots 11:32:17 <Eddi|zuHause> and stuff 11:33:45 <argoneus> I guess everything has been done :( 11:37:37 *** Supercheese [~Superchee@76.178.136.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:37:49 <peter1138> Urgh, I still have connections from IE6 on XP... 11:38:53 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: just reject those :p 11:41:24 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~flex@88.130.182.166] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:43:07 <Eddi|zuHause> btw, the fun really starts when you use double-b or double-# :p 11:43:56 <V453000> DDs are always fun 11:44:07 <V453000> oh b 11:44:09 <V453000> hm damn :-D 11:44:14 <Eddi|zuHause> quite :p 11:44:29 <V453000> two Bs are good too. 11:45:01 <Eddi|zuHause> except that case is relevant here 11:45:39 <peter1138> I tend to not bother trying to play it if it's got doubles... 11:46:01 <argoneus> check my dubs 11:46:59 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, the typical keys i dabble in have 2,3 or 4 b. in extreme cases 0 or 6 b 11:47:11 <Eddi|zuHause> which means # are really really rare 11:47:16 <Eddi|zuHause> and puzzle me every time they appear 11:49:35 <Eddi|zuHause> there was a time where even a lack of Eb would throw me off, but i *think* i got past that :p 11:49:56 <Eddi|zuHause> lack of Bb is still tricky 12:01:50 <planetmaker> argoneus, that programme exists. It's OpenTTD itself ;) 12:07:17 <supermop> night 12:07:20 <peter1138> Don't you mean OpenTDD? 12:07:26 *** supermop [~daniel_er@d110-33-191-31.sun801.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: supermop] 12:11:07 <andythenorth> flickering ships are flickering 12:12:17 <peter1138> Then they're too long, or the offsets are wrong. 12:12:26 <andythenorth> too long 12:12:44 <andythenorth> and thereâs about 5 of them trying to occupy same position 12:13:04 <andythenorth> due to bunching 12:13:33 <andythenorth> also, annoying shrinking towns 12:13:45 <andythenorth> town âgrowsâ 12:13:48 <andythenorth> but with smaller buildings 12:13:49 <andythenorth> yay 12:13:59 <andythenorth> well thatâs one solution to cdist 12:14:13 <andythenorth> âtoo many paxâ is solved 12:14:28 <peter1138> SQUID? SQUID is pretty good with sizes and bounding boxes. 12:14:44 <andythenorth> the big paddle steamer 12:15:41 <peter1138> Yeah 12:16:13 <andythenorth> itâs fine except when they bunch 12:16:16 <andythenorth> and they bunch all the time 12:16:21 <peter1138> Timetables 12:16:24 <andythenorth> donât work 12:16:30 <andythenorth> I spent ages following the instructions 12:16:34 <peter1138> full-load 12:16:38 <andythenorth> full load works 12:16:52 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 12:17:17 <andythenorth> need FIFO ships 12:17:44 <peter1138> multiple docks 12:18:08 <andythenorth> there was a patch for that 12:18:10 <andythenorth> I saw it 12:18:19 <peter1138> Yeah, someone definitely had a patch for it. 12:18:49 <andythenorth> hmm 12:19:06 <andythenorth> I declare Road Hog playable, as long as you only want the trams. So until 1940. And no cargo sprites 12:20:17 <andythenorth> hmm 12:20:21 <andythenorth> game is still fun 12:22:33 * peter1138 ponders retrying it. 12:22:52 <andythenorth> someone want to translate Iron Horse into English? 12:22:57 <andythenorth> en-gb 12:23:01 <andythenorth> I have it all in US 12:23:07 <andythenorth> due to reasons 12:24:57 <andythenorth> if bouys could be docks 12:33:41 <andythenorth> game is too addictive 12:33:47 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has left #openttd [] 12:58:04 <peter1138> http://i.imgur.com/fHEG1VM.png :o 13:02:57 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~flex@88.130.182.166] has joined #openttd 13:11:54 <Flygon_> peter1138: That's strangely pretty 13:11:55 *** Flygon_ is now known as Flygon 13:32:59 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: the shadows are all wrong 13:33:32 <peter1138> Well... 13:34:07 <Eddi|zuHause> some shadows are from the left, others from the top left, and others from the top right 13:34:37 <Eddi|zuHause> and others are missing completely 13:35:26 <Eddi|zuHause> also, there is no sane reason why there would be a park on a dock :p 13:40:21 <Eddi|zuHause> "operator of nuclear power stations wants to go out with a bang!" 13:41:30 <Eddi|zuHause> (or: "vattenfall sues german government over decision to quit nuclear power, demands 4,7 Mrd â¬") 13:43:13 <Pikka> need ships that don't/can't/try not to go through each other. :D 13:43:37 * Pikka had a thought about a pathfinder that makes ships slow down and try to avoid each other, and coastlines. 13:43:56 <peter1138> :S 13:44:17 <peter1138> But it's a train game 13:44:46 <Pikka> so, like, ships go slower when they're near a shore. and try and pass each other to the... I want to say right. 13:45:21 <Pikka> congested waterways = slower boots. it's like the "different speeds on canals and 'ocean'" idea, only more organic and more sensible. and more "realistic". :) 13:45:41 <Pikka> I know, it's just a notion. I don't suppose I'll do anything about it. 13:45:44 <Pikka> :P 13:46:33 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: there was such a pathfinder on the forums. afair this just made the ships behave weirdly and block each other 13:47:06 <Pikka> that just means the implementation was bad. not necessarily the concept. ;) 13:47:38 <Pikka> anyway, I must to bed 13:47:59 <Pikka> tomorrow my group is going to attempt to do about 3 weeks worth of work in 2 hours, before our major presentation for the semester. :) 13:48:16 <Eddi|zuHause> no amount of implementation will solve your problems with a not well-thought concept 13:48:38 <Pikka> have you ever known me to have a not-well-thought concept? ;) 13:48:52 <Eddi|zuHause> have i ever known you? 13:49:10 <Pikka> to have a not-well-thought concept. 13:49:15 <Pikka> except regearing 13:49:24 <Pikka> and all those other ones 13:49:31 <Pikka> goodnight :) 13:49:32 *** Pikka [~Octomom@d58-106-23-62.rdl801.qld.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:54:13 <Flygon> RE: The ship thing 13:54:26 <Flygon> The insane idea would be to implement railway style shipping lanes 13:54:32 <Flygon> Signals, crossing loops, and all 13:54:41 <Flygon> For areas that're thinner than 2 tiles wide obviously 13:56:42 *** Pereba [~UserNick@179.181.225.62] has joined #openttd 13:57:20 <Eddi|zuHause> if only there were "exactly one" insane idea 14:01:43 <planetmaker> Flygon, but that would be unrealistic ;) 14:02:01 <Flygon> Screw realism 14:02:14 <Flygon> Trains in OTTD don't shunt the loco to the rear when they reverse :D 14:02:29 <planetmaker> it would rather be realistic to add different buoys. Which indicate starbord and portside of passages etc :P 14:03:37 <peter1138> Different buoys? Just go either side of one :p 14:04:16 <planetmaker> :) also might add new disaster: a ship which runs into ground when passing buoy on wrong side. Would amount to breakdown or so :P 14:04:49 <planetmaker> green buoys are those with the pointy end :P. The red ones have a flat top. Tendentially ;) 14:05:30 <liq3> Hey, what does the "passengers/mail last month" mean on the town window? 14:05:33 <Flygon> Unsure if taking me for ride :P 14:06:39 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd 14:07:07 <peter1138> andythenorth will doit. 14:07:32 *** Pinkbeast [damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:08:36 <andythenorth> itâs done 14:12:53 *** TomyLobo [~foo@91.65.115.103] has joined #openttd 14:15:02 <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: same as the "production last month" of industries 14:15:12 <liq3> Eddi|zuHause: good to know. thought so. 14:15:36 <Eddi|zuHause> base production modified by station rating 14:15:47 <argoneus> (who here hype for warlords of draenor?) 14:16:16 <Eddi|zuHause> never heard of that 14:19:47 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has left #openttd [] 14:33:12 <peter1138> Ah, I remember the problem with multistop docks... 14:46:06 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd 14:54:26 <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: you don't play videogames? 14:54:46 <argoneus> I thought most everyone has heard about world of warcraft by now :< 14:54:54 <Eddi|zuHause> not ALL of them... 14:55:48 <peter1138> I've heard of WoW, but that's about it. 14:56:54 <andythenorth> hmm 14:56:56 <andythenorth> Warcraft 1 14:56:59 <andythenorth> my liege 14:57:02 <argoneus> if I may ask, just out of curiosity 14:57:04 <argoneus> how old are you guys? 14:57:11 <andythenorth> old 14:57:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i dabbled in warcraft 3 for a little bit 14:57:26 <argoneus> I'm just wondering if there's a generation gap or if our hobbies are so far apart or both 14:57:38 <Eddi|zuHause> but the whole "quickly build up" style of gameplay is not for me 14:57:52 <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: you should give the Anno series a spin 14:57:59 <argoneus> or europa universalis 14:58:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i've not tried WoW at all 14:58:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm still terrible in path of exile... 14:59:00 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:59:13 <argoneus> ah, PoE 14:59:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i have next to zero reflexes :p 14:59:16 <argoneus> now you're talking 14:59:21 <argoneus> wait, how old are you? 14:59:35 <Eddi|zuHause> not as old as peter and andy :p 14:59:46 <argoneus> are we talking first digit >= 3? 15:00:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm old enough to have played civilization 1 15:00:25 <argoneus> I have played old games too :< 15:00:40 <Eddi|zuHause> i meant when they were new games :p 15:00:43 <argoneus> like commander keen 15:01:15 <andythenorth> I was too young for commander keen 15:01:23 <andythenorth> because nobody had a PC then 15:01:33 <Eddi|zuHause> i've never really gotten into commander keen 15:01:43 <andythenorth> also we were too busy playing Lotus Turbo Esprit 15:01:46 <andythenorth> and Chocks Away 15:02:20 <argoneus> the first game I fell in love with was age of empires 1 15:02:21 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: by that definition, yes, i'm old. :p 15:02:22 <argoneus> and then ttd 15:02:36 <argoneus> is anyone here first digit >= 4? 15:02:43 <Eddi|zuHause> certainly 15:02:46 <argoneus> oh, wow 15:02:48 <argoneus> even 5? 15:02:59 <Eddi|zuHause> probably 15:03:08 <argoneus> I'll rather not ask further 15:05:03 <andythenorth> not me 15:05:04 <andythenorth> yet 15:06:13 <Flygon> Man 15:06:19 *** luaduck_zzz is now known as luaduck 15:06:29 <Flygon> Hard to claim playing Ragnarok Online when it was new as being old :U 15:06:48 <Flygon> Insert joke about how that also uses .grf files here 15:08:03 <peter1138> I played Commander Keen, when it was cool. 15:08:37 * Rubidium feels old compared to andythenorth 15:11:52 <Rubidium> argoneus: there are even people in here with children where first digit >= 4 15:12:14 <planetmaker> <argoneus> [15:02:20] the first game I fell in love with was age of empires 1 <-- haha. By that definition... the first game I loved so much that I bought it was Civ I. On four state-of-the-art 3.5" floppy disks 15:12:31 <argoneus> like, person here that has a child that is >= 4? 15:12:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: it's really not that hard to have 4 year old children :p 15:12:42 <argoneus> oh 15:12:43 <argoneus> fuck 15:12:53 * argoneus got tricked 15:13:23 <argoneus> oh also 15:13:26 <argoneus> unreal tournament 1999 15:13:29 <Rubidium> anyone remember Stunts? I guess that's about the first game I remember liking a lot 15:13:29 <argoneus> such a great game 15:13:45 <argoneus> Rubidium: I played that! 15:13:48 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: where you built race tracks and then ran on them? 15:13:54 *** Celestar [~Celestar@mnch-5d877829.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:14:01 <argoneus> I played a lot of NES too :D 15:14:02 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: yeah,t hat one 15:14:21 <argoneus> excite bike and battle city best 15:14:22 <Rubidium> oh... it's even pre Civ I and definitely pre AoE 15:14:27 <Eddi|zuHause> that was fun, but i always crashed on the "screwdrivers" :p 15:14:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't actually _buy_ that many games :p 15:15:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i bought Settlers, and TT, and then nothing for a long time... 15:15:50 <NGC3982> What Settlers? 15:15:56 <Eddi|zuHause> the original. 15:16:09 <argoneus> I only played S3 :< 15:16:11 <NGC3982> I just bought a new computer and tried out the 7th instance of the game. 15:16:15 <NGC3982> It's actually pretty good. 15:16:17 <argoneus> you done fucked up 15:16:20 <argoneus> S7 is not settlers 15:16:25 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, buy? what is that? 15:16:36 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: the one with the terrible always-on-drm? 15:16:36 <argoneus> S7 is a strategy game with a zone control system 15:16:41 <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: yes 15:16:45 <argoneus> it's not settlers 15:16:48 <NGC3982> Pretentious nostalgia doesn't coun't. 15:16:49 <argoneus> if you want something recent 15:16:50 <Eddi|zuHause> who would ever buy that? 15:16:53 <NGC3982> Also: Warez 15:16:55 <argoneus> play the 2nd anniversary one 15:17:01 <argoneus> no NGC3982, it's not nostalgia 15:17:05 <argoneus> it's NOTHING like the old settlers 15:17:08 <argoneus> 1-6 are way different from 7 15:17:19 <Eddi|zuHause> s2tng was nice 15:17:20 <NGC3982> The last Settlers game i bought was that Kings thing 15:17:20 <argoneus> play settlers 2 10th anniversary or settlers 4 15:17:24 <NGC3982> I think it's ..4? 15:17:27 <argoneus> 5 15:17:28 <argoneus> or 6 15:17:30 <NGC3982> Romans, Vikings, etc's. 15:17:30 * Rubidium thought games like CoD were the newer versions of Settlers 15:17:33 <NGC3982> Non-3D. 15:17:40 <argoneus> oh 15:17:42 <NGC3982> Or 2D, as the elders call it 15:17:43 <argoneus> then could've been 4 15:17:55 <argoneus> 4 is great 15:18:00 <argoneus> 10th anniversary is good 15:18:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i played some demo of 3 15:18:02 <argoneus> 7 is not settlers 15:18:05 <Eddi|zuHause> it was terrible 15:18:15 <argoneus> are you sure it was 3 15:18:17 <argoneus> I loved 3 :( 15:18:17 <Eddi|zuHause> i went back to playing 2 15:18:19 <NGC3982> It was 4 i ment 15:18:26 <NGC3982> I guess it's "really" 3D 15:18:28 <Rubidium> NGC3982: proper 2D, or 2D-ish like OpenTTD (compared to proper 3D) 15:18:37 <NGC3982> 2D-ish is more correct, sure. 15:18:56 <peter1138> Doom 2D :D 15:19:06 <NGC3982> http://modsreloaded.com/downloads/s7owvkxmt3/k8p8pgpich.jpg 15:19:08 <argoneus> wolfenstein.... 3D! 15:19:13 <NGC3982> There we are. 15:19:16 <NGC3982> That's <3. 15:19:17 <argoneus> NGC3982: yeah that's 4 15:19:44 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: the whole path management thing was missing 15:19:47 <NGC3982> But yes, except for the DRM (wish i did not have to take part in), the game itself is really good. 15:20:39 <argoneus> S7 is a fine game 15:20:41 <argoneus> but it's not settlers 15:20:42 <argoneus> :< 15:20:45 <NGC3982> :| 15:20:47 <peter1138> OpenTTD is not TTD 15:20:51 <argoneus> no 15:20:57 <NGC3982> NGC3982 is not a galaxy 15:20:57 <argoneus> it's like 15:21:04 <argoneus> if they made starcraft into a turn based game 15:21:05 * peter1138 ponders changing docks 15:21:07 <argoneus> and called it starcraft 3 15:21:11 <argoneus> would it be starcraft? 15:21:25 <NGC3982> argoneus: Yes, it would. I get your point, but games do actually change. 15:21:34 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: you mean like when they made warcraft from a RTS into a RPG? 15:21:35 * argoneus shrugs 15:21:52 <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: W3 is a RTS with RPG elements 15:21:53 <NGC3982> Isn't Metroid for Gamecube still a Metroid game? 15:22:18 <argoneus> tthe thing is 15:22:28 <Eddi|zuHause> or didn't they make command&conquer into an FPS game? 15:22:28 <argoneus> with settlers 1-6, you had your territory, you could buiold everywhere in it, or expand it 15:22:47 <argoneus> in S7, there's a zone based system, instead of territory, so you claim zones 15:22:51 <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: yes, renegade 15:22:53 <NGC3982> Blizzard themselves are quite clear with the distinction on that Warcraft != World of Warcraft 15:22:55 <argoneus> it was a good game 15:23:02 <NGC3982> Since there has been some buzz about a new Warcraft game. 15:23:12 <argoneus> a new warcraft game is not happening 15:23:14 <NGC3982> As a direct follow-up to the Frozen Throne add-on. 15:23:16 <argoneus> the lore has been butchered too much 15:23:28 <NGC3982> E3 seemed to think otherwise 15:23:35 <NGC3982> But i have no idea, really. 15:23:40 <argoneus> blizzard promised project titan too 15:23:44 <argoneus> and now it's cancelled 15:23:49 <NGC3982> What'zat. 15:23:55 <argoneus> it was supposed to be a new MMO 15:24:02 <argoneus> in development since like 2008 or so 15:24:05 <argoneus> they cancelled it a month ago 15:30:04 <planetmaker> peter1138, rather add to docks :) So that they can be freely built like train stations 15:30:38 <peter1138> Yeah, that might be an idea. 15:31:02 <planetmaker> probably it needs dock tiles and non-dock tiles 15:31:11 <peter1138> Build dock on land, any water adjacent to it can be docked at? 15:31:17 <planetmaker> thus multi-dock is the hidden feature beneath this idea :P 15:31:37 <peter1138> multistop dock is a red herring i think 15:31:48 <planetmaker> peter1138, I guess the devil is in the path finder part in it :) 15:32:02 <peter1138> planetmaker, yes. actually doing multistop for docks is easy 15:32:17 <planetmaker> ...but? 15:32:25 <peter1138> but the path finding isn't 15:33:28 <peter1138> At least, as I remember it :) 15:33:39 <andythenorth> bouys as docks 15:33:47 <peter1138> All the multistop stuff (and train platforms too) relies on landing on the stop directly 15:33:49 <andythenorth> solves the inland-flat-docks pony 15:33:54 <peter1138> but ships have to stop next to it 15:34:09 <peter1138> newdocks 15:34:13 <andythenorth> state machine 15:34:58 <peter1138> So I'm thinking... keep a list per station of dockable tiles as well 15:35:08 <planetmaker> peter1138, well. That could actually be solved. By explicitly introducing a dock tile which must be water 15:35:10 <peter1138> then you can keep the traditional dock 15:35:24 <peter1138> yeah true could be that indeed 15:35:56 <planetmaker> savegame conversion for funky edge cases might be tricky (where the dock is surrounded by only shore) 15:35:58 <peter1138> problem with that is you can current place docks and have part of the docking area blocked 15:36:39 <planetmaker> But I'd really like a solution where you can define the loading places next to stations 15:36:57 <planetmaker> could make for interesting harbours. 15:37:18 <planetmaker> dunno what you mean with 'have part of the docking area blocked' 15:37:27 <planetmaker> you mean some water part made inaccessible? 15:38:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd much rather have airport-like dock layouts 15:40:46 <planetmaker> one-stop big ports? 15:41:26 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, one port with multiple loading bays 15:41:56 <planetmaker> tile-based like stations is nicer, I think 15:42:01 <andythenorth> +1 15:42:12 <Eddi|zuHause> +1 to what? 15:42:16 <andythenorth> tile based 15:42:23 <andythenorth> having duly considered the options 15:42:25 <andythenorth> in depth 15:42:51 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem with "tile based" is that ships are longer than a tile, so they will probably overlap again 15:43:11 <Taede> make the loading 'tiles' 2x1? 15:44:28 <planetmaker> for instance 15:44:36 <andythenorth> are we solving overlapping? 15:44:45 <planetmaker> or solve that in the first place 15:45:11 <andythenorth> I just want to be able to bridge peninsulas without mass land lowering 15:45:18 <andythenorth> also inland docks 15:45:19 <planetmaker> also we now have so much height we could introduce a global sealevel variable ;) 15:50:15 <peter1138> planetmaker, please 15:50:24 <peter1138> Pointless, but still. 15:50:32 <peter1138> MineOpenTTD. 15:50:42 <peter1138> Make sealevel at 64. 15:51:15 <peter1138> airport-like docks really wouldn't work 15:51:30 <peter1138> Too restrictive in regards to location 15:51:37 <argoneus> is there a maximum theoretical map size? 15:51:49 <argoneus> after which the game would crumble 15:52:07 <Eddi|zuHause> what kind of "theory"? 15:52:17 <Taede> 4kx4k can make the game crumble already, depending on the machine 15:52:27 <Eddi|zuHause> speed? memory? 15:52:33 <argoneus> speed 15:52:38 <argoneus> you can always buy more memory 15:52:39 <argoneus> :^) 15:52:41 <Rubidium> even 64x64 can be dead slow 15:53:11 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 15:53:17 <Eddi|zuHause> there were some versions of ECS where even without any vehicles, a 2kx2k map was unplayably slow 15:53:24 <argoneus> oh wow 15:53:32 *** Klanticus [~quassel@187.39.191.115] has joined #openttd 15:53:42 <Rubidium> just try to play in a completely emulated environment (e.g. ppc pearpc instance on a x86 processor) 15:53:45 <planetmaker> peter1138, the point would be andy's pony of extending water types to distinguish coastal and high sea 15:54:37 *** Klanticus [~quassel@187.39.191.115] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:54:43 <peter1138> huh? 15:54:43 <Eddi|zuHause> my 386-DX25 was so slow that with 80 trains on a 256x256 map, TT was basically unplayable 15:54:59 <peter1138> Oh, water depth, right. 15:55:01 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: you can also "always" buy a faster computer 15:55:04 <planetmaker> yup, that 15:56:07 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: don't forget to quote "faster" ;) 15:56:54 <Rubidium> arguably a quite old GPU could get way more performance in full screen with 8bpp palette animation than you ever can with a recent GPU 15:57:14 <Rubidium> even though a recent GPU has one or two orders more Hzs 15:57:22 *** TheMask96 [martijn@lust.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:57:26 <peter1138> Yes, DGA mode was stupidly fast. 15:57:39 <peter1138> But DGA is no longer possible. 15:57:56 <andythenorth> well 15:58:03 <andythenorth> I got bored of the water types extension 15:58:06 <andythenorth> but feel free :) 15:58:23 <peter1138> Can we have triremes that get lost at sea? 15:58:31 <andythenorth> probly 15:58:41 <peter1138> And hoards of barbarians, obviously. 15:59:35 <peter1138> Civ I was the best 16:02:16 *** TheMask96 [martijn@envy.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 16:03:34 *** Djohaal [~Djohaal@201.47.10.59.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #openttd 16:07:06 <luaduck> are there any station designs for a 4 lines in roro? 16:07:20 <luaduck> 2 lines is ez but 4 lines is stumping me 16:07:40 <planetmaker> you mean 4 incoming tracks or 4 station tracks? 16:08:35 <Eddi|zuHause> 4 lines is easy, just build the same thing again 16:09:02 <luaduck> 4 incoming lines 16:09:04 <NGC3982> A thing i have been thinking of 16:09:17 <NGC3982> Oh, wrong channel. 16:09:58 <andythenorth> peter1138: did your multistop idea mean one ship per stop? 16:10:01 * andythenorth assumes that 16:10:25 <Eddi|zuHause> wouldn't make a lot of sense otherwise 16:11:31 <peter1138> no 16:11:35 <planetmaker> luaduck, easiest build one station for each line without mixing. And do a station exit with a choice onto the four lanes 16:11:48 <luaduck> hmm, was what I was thinking too 16:11:49 <luaduck> ta 16:12:08 <planetmaker> 7 or 8 station tracks per incoming line 16:12:15 <planetmaker> going to get huge :) 16:12:58 <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't mean the 28-32 tracks must be next to each other 16:13:25 <planetmaker> no. But leaving much space wouldn't make it smaller ;) 16:14:00 <Eddi|zuHause> no, but it could be one of those "interwoven" designs, where two separate stations are in front of each other 16:14:21 <planetmaker> could. But I don't see how that would help 16:14:25 <Eddi|zuHause> so one station with 16 tracks, and another station with 16 tracks, and tunnels underneath 16:15:10 <planetmaker> uh... no. That will lead to serious congestion under most configurations 16:16:00 <peter1138> 3D Layers, stations above... 16:16:05 <Eddi|zuHause> alternatively, 2 station tracks+1 through track 16:16:18 <Eddi|zuHause> would become 24-ish wide 16:16:55 <Eddi|zuHause> but probably not as long 16:17:25 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but i don't see how it would congest, if you split 1 line into 4 tunnels 16:17:38 <Eddi|zuHause> and each tunnel into 2 station tracks 16:18:55 <peter1138> Hmm, so, either I have replace water tiles with a dockable "water" station tile, or maintain a list of dockable tiles within the station struct. 16:19:11 <peter1138> I think the latter would be more compatible with existing docks. 16:20:36 <peter1138> Or forget about it. 16:20:58 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd try the former 16:21:27 <Eddi|zuHause> upon loading a savegame, you can automatically convert tiles next to old docks 16:21:48 <peter1138> Which may or may not be land. 16:21:58 <peter1138> But I guess that's okay. 16:22:43 <Eddi|zuHause> sure, just don't convert land tiles 16:22:48 *** FLHerne [~flh@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 16:24:04 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-4d01176f.pool.mediaways.net] has joined #openttd 16:25:56 <peter1138> Meh, currently I have ships doing circles :D 16:31:09 *** Brumi [~quassel@78-131-41-191.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #openttd 16:32:47 <andythenorth> lost trireme innit 16:35:32 *** ixalovh [~ixalovh@adsl-69-208-81-185.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #openttd 16:40:13 <Eddi|zuHause> just save and reload until it succeeds 16:40:39 *** KenjiE20 [kenjie20@46.246.119.109] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:40:47 <Eddi|zuHause> you can easily go from africa to south america that way 16:41:11 <peter1138> Hmm, oh, it's only the end-tile that can be docked with 16:41:34 <Eddi|zuHause> that should probably change 16:42:03 *** KenjiE20 [kenjie20@46.246.119.109] has joined #openttd 16:42:06 <Eddi|zuHause> especially if you disallow two ships docking at the same place (which you should) 16:44:00 <andythenorth> :( 16:50:28 *** Brumi [~quassel@78-131-41-191.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [] 16:51:55 <andythenorth> single dock tiles on water 16:52:01 <andythenorth> looks like a bouy 16:52:23 <andythenorth> :P 16:52:42 <andythenorth> if you want jetties and stuff, build rail station tiles 16:52:56 <peter1138> marico 16:53:00 <andythenorth> or that 16:53:05 <andythenorth> except itâs objets 16:53:36 <peter1138> So basically, a dock needs to have water at the end. 16:54:06 <andythenorth> do it as single water tiles, it will :P 16:54:12 <andythenorth> and river docks get solved 16:54:12 <peter1138> But it seems silly doing it that way 16:54:57 *** kais58__1 [~kais58@cpc3-cwma7-2-0-cust221.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd 16:56:34 *** glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 16:56:37 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 16:56:43 *** kais58___ [~kais58@cpc3-cwma7-2-0-cust221.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:57:48 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the part that's "wrong" for rivers. the water should be on the side there 16:58:17 <peter1138> ? 16:58:49 <Eddi|zuHause> it's next to impossible to put a dock on a river 16:59:17 <Eddi|zuHause> you need to make a large canal area, and then raise some land 16:59:50 *** Brumi [~quassel@78-131-41-191.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #openttd 16:59:53 <andythenorth> single water tile dock 17:00:30 <Eddi|zuHause> instead you should be able to just put something on the side of the river where the ships will dock to 17:01:04 <andythenorth> how do you guarantee water? 17:01:11 <andythenorth> what if I bulldoze the water tile? 17:01:21 <peter1138> then you can't dock there 17:01:57 <frosch123> you can also not remove water under buoys 17:02:04 <andythenorth> if water tile, can build arbitrary transfer stations o_O 17:02:06 <andythenorth> at sea 17:03:09 <frosch123> the question is rather whether such docks would have an orientation 17:03:17 <andythenorth> na 17:03:20 <frosch123> i.e. if you have canal - land - canal 17:03:26 <frosch123> can ships dock on both sides? 17:04:13 <frosch123> or does the dock have some specific loading tiles within the neighboured canal/river? 17:04:31 <Rubidium> frosch123: I guess so 17:04:58 <peter1138> then you can't dock there 17:04:59 <peter1138> err 17:05:01 <Rubidium> ship_cmd.cpp:281 17:05:23 <frosch123> Rubidium: weren't we talking about flat docks for rivers? 17:05:32 <frosch123> or did i miss another commit? :p 17:05:56 *** kais58__1 is now known as kais58|AFK 17:06:12 <andythenorth> single tile multi-stop docks, with cabeese 17:06:19 <Rubidium> oh... "docks" have a "configurable" offset 17:09:14 <Rubidium> frosch123: you didn't miss any commit 17:09:17 *** Alberth [~hat@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has joined #openttd 17:09:20 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 17:09:35 <peter1138> Hmm, maybe I just found the bug :p 17:09:43 * peter1138 compiles again 17:11:30 <peter1138> Oh, now it just crashes :D 17:14:11 <peter1138> Oops. 17:23:48 *** kais58|A1K [~kais58@cpc3-cwma7-2-0-cust221.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd 17:25:28 *** kais58|AFK [~kais58@cpc3-cwma7-2-0-cust221.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:31:03 *** arroyoc [~Thunderbi@85.57.197.225] has joined #openttd 17:35:51 <planetmaker> hm, where can I see the autoreplace protection icon? 17:36:47 <planetmaker> ah... nvm :) 17:37:05 *** arroyoc [~Thunderbi@85.57.197.225] has quit [Quit: arroyoc] 17:38:24 <planetmaker> peter1138, the size of the tooltip window does not scale with font size at all. That's... funky. It gets too small for some words 17:38:43 <planetmaker> and is not adjusted for widest word either 17:39:08 <peter1138> Yup 17:41:09 *** gelignite [~gelignite@i528C3997.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 17:42:40 <andythenorth> live spacewalk video is quite interesting 17:42:43 <andythenorth> not much actually happens 17:43:02 <Alberth> I would expect so :) 17:44:01 <andythenorth> http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/index.html#.VD6pzEvWJMH 17:46:46 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27019 /trunk/src/lang (5 files) (2014-10-15 17:46:35 UTC) 17:46:47 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:46:48 <DorpsGek> catalan - 3 changes by juanjo 17:46:49 <DorpsGek> croatian - 1 changes by VoyagerOne 17:46:50 <DorpsGek> romanian - 19 changes by kitguyy 17:46:51 <DorpsGek> russian - 6 changes by Lone_Wolf 17:46:52 <DorpsGek> spanish - 2 changes by SilverSurferZzZ 17:49:40 <andythenorth> hmm 17:49:41 <andythenorth> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/6721/articulated_trucks.png 17:50:06 <Alberth> ha, a load wants to go straight :) 17:50:11 <andythenorth> well 17:50:34 <andythenorth> the sprites are 5.5/8 long 17:50:50 <andythenorth> but setting the vehicles to 4/8 made them overlap correctly in most views 17:50:55 <andythenorth> but looks bloody awful in turns 17:51:36 <andythenorth> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/6722/articulated_trucks_bb.png 17:52:45 <andythenorth> thought it would be a nice quick cheat :P 17:52:48 <Alberth> so much truck outside the bounding box! 17:52:50 <andythenorth> so much 17:52:58 <andythenorth> I canât remember how this is done in HEQS 17:53:00 <andythenorth> probably badly 17:53:38 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: more turning angles :p 17:54:09 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: instead of 4+4, make it 2+6 17:54:26 <Eddi|zuHause> or something 17:59:20 <peter1138> Yeah, it's best to put the vehicle inside the BB. 17:59:29 * peter1138 gives up on docks and reverts again. 18:04:54 <andythenorth> sad times :( 18:09:26 *** Rubidium_ [~Rubidium@noiv.net] has joined #openttd 18:09:26 *** Rubidium [~Rubidium@000128fa.user.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:10:16 <planetmaker> the error window has the same sizing problem as the tooltip window 18:12:08 <peter1138> Yeah our window system is still all geared up for pixel sizes. 18:14:31 <planetmaker> highscore window is also ugly with 2x fonts 18:15:37 <Alberth> just delete it, together with the score window? :) 18:16:20 <peter1138> We have a high score window? :p 18:16:42 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i've never even reached 2050 18:17:20 <peter1138> Ah, it doesn't scale to font size. In that case it would've looked bad with any non-standard font size. 18:17:49 <peter1138> Still, as double ui = double fonts now, that should be easily fixable. 18:19:26 <andythenorth> 2/8 and 6/8 might work 18:19:32 <frosch123> people complained about the difficulty settings missing 18:19:43 <frosch123> but noone noticed that i trashed 4/5 of the highscore lists 18:19:50 <frosch123> or 3/4? 18:20:24 <andythenorth> what went missing? o_O 18:20:52 <frosch123> well, there were separate highscore lists per difficulty level :p 18:21:09 <frosch123> now only the custom and the fake-multiplayer (or something like that) exists 18:23:35 <peter1138> heh 18:23:35 <Eddi|zuHause> who really ever played the standard difficulties? 18:23:54 <frosch123> exactly :) 18:24:26 <Alberth> only with the original program :) 18:27:25 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:29:01 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 18:31:43 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r27020 /trunk/src (16 files in 8 dirs) (2014-10-15 18:31:37 UTC) 18:31:44 <DorpsGek> -Cleanup: some coding style consistency improvements (mostly spaces) 18:42:53 *** damalix [~chatzilla@2001:41d0:fe3f:3100:bc5a:4d0a:9e03:ef2f] has joined #openttd 18:44:17 *** damalix [~chatzilla@2001:41d0:fe3f:3100:bc5a:4d0a:9e03:ef2f] has quit [] 18:49:28 <andythenorth> hmm 18:49:40 <andythenorth> I need an additional set of offsets 18:50:53 <andythenorth> for vehicles that are x/8 long, faking being y/8 long 18:50:57 <andythenorth> fun times 18:51:20 <Alberth> :o 18:51:51 <Alberth> for some reason you always manage to add new layers of complexity :) 18:52:23 <andythenorth> :( 18:54:07 *** Supercheese [~Superchee@76.178.136.186] has joined #openttd 18:55:03 <frosch123> andythenorth: you know, if you have offsets once, you can adjust them by adding (2,1) to other bounding box sizes 18:55:38 <andythenorth> ? 18:55:46 <andythenorth> I can? 18:55:55 <frosch123> if you have correct offsets for one size, you can compute the offsets for a different size 18:56:02 <andythenorth> I wondered about that 18:56:06 <andythenorth> I was trying to see the pattern 18:56:13 <andythenorth> the patterns seem to be odd 18:56:52 <andythenorth> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pyys9d3qd 18:57:30 <frosch123> http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.hg/file/736eaa0417fa/src/table/station_land.h#l46 <- ottd also shifts positions around 18:57:38 <andythenorth> also bears no relation to in game sprite aligner, I gave up on that 18:59:27 <andythenorth> hmm 18:59:27 *** Djohaal [~Djohaal@201.47.10.59.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:59:32 *** Djohaal [~Djohaal@177.16.141.212] has joined #openttd 18:59:38 <andythenorth> Iâm not compressing \ / views enough in my drawing I think 19:01:53 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host156-13-dynamic.20-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 19:01:55 <peter1138> You're not compressing -- | views enough 19:02:17 <Wolf01> hi hi 19:02:31 <andythenorth> well 19:02:47 <andythenorth> a â view that is 6/8 should be 24px wide, no? 19:03:11 <peter1138> No because 32px wide was BAD FEATURE 19:03:12 <andythenorth> and then the side of the vehicle in / will measure about 11px or so 19:03:24 <peter1138> Ask pikka 19:04:46 <andythenorth> pikka has views 19:05:33 <andythenorth> HEQS always looks daft because the \ / are too long 19:05:36 <andythenorth> same with Squid 19:06:12 <peter1138> default -- view is 28 pixels 19:06:38 <peter1138> \ is about 14/15 pixels 19:06:43 <peter1138> (for the side) 19:06:56 <frosch123> 16 minus inter-vehicle spacing 19:07:05 <peter1138> Yeah 19:07:39 <andythenorth> hmm 19:07:55 <peter1138> Compare your vehicles in a bounding box to do the default vehicles 19:07:58 <andythenorth> Danâs sprites have 28px â views matched with 13px / \ 19:08:03 <peter1138> And use TTD graphics, not OpenGFX. 19:08:21 <andythenorth> always :P 19:09:31 <peter1138> Also remember for road vehicles / and \ are your priority. 19:09:43 <peter1138> They're less often seen in | and - views 19:09:50 <andythenorth> so default vehicles fit the \ / BB perfectly 19:10:01 <andythenorth> give or take 1px 19:10:07 <peter1138> Yeah, and they're 8/8 19:10:37 <andythenorth> and theyâre only 28px or so in â view? 19:10:56 <peter1138> exactly 28px, yes 19:10:59 <andythenorth> hmm 19:11:04 <andythenorth> so theyâre not 8/8 19:11:07 <andythenorth> but they are 8/8 19:11:09 <andythenorth> wonderful 19:11:09 <peter1138> but the bounding box goes weird in that case 19:11:11 <peter1138> they're 8/8 19:11:17 <peter1138> 32px is wrong, as i said :p 19:11:23 <andythenorth> so who smoked crack? 19:11:29 <peter1138> sawyer 19:11:54 <andythenorth> well thatâs a bugger isnât it 19:17:23 * andythenorth FML 19:17:26 <andythenorth> redraw all the things 19:18:01 <frosch123> question is though, why are default vehicles 28px? shouldn't they be 23? 19:19:04 <frosch123> @calc sqrt(2)*16 19:19:04 <DorpsGek> frosch123: 22.627416998 19:21:25 <Supercheese> Logic need not apply 19:21:55 <frosch123> pikka should know, he claimed to not have distorted pineapple 19:24:07 <andythenorth> maybe I could just stick to trams 19:24:11 <andythenorth> and trucks without semi-trailers 19:25:26 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: no, the length of the / view is 8*sqrt(5) 19:28:52 <frosch123> @calc 8*sqrt(5) 19:28:52 <DorpsGek> frosch123: 17.88854382 19:29:10 <frosch123> that makes no sense 19:29:19 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc sqrt(2)*8*sqrt(5) 19:29:19 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 25.2982212813 19:29:26 <argoneus> \o/ 19:29:58 <Eddi|zuHause> but the â view is also weirdly distorted in the original 19:30:52 <frosch123> measuring pineapple confirms my sqrt(2) 19:31:05 <frosch123> i don't know how you get the sqrt(5) 19:31:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i wasn't questioning your sqrt(2), i was questioning your 16 19:31:38 <frosch123> the horizontal width of the train projection in \ direction is 16 pixels 19:32:14 <frosch123> if i rotate the world to a top-down projection that does not change the size of horizontal width 19:32:31 <Eddi|zuHause> each length step is 2 pixels across and 1 pixel up, so the length of the hypothenuse is sqrt(2^2+1^2) 19:32:33 <frosch123> with sqrt(2) you then get the length of the actual vehicle 19:32:53 <frosch123> that length you can then turn to the -- orientation, and rotate the world back to the normal projection 19:33:30 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: 16 is the horizontal extent, you are counting the diagonal distance, but who counts pixels like that? 19:34:02 <Eddi|zuHause> anyone who desires useful proportions 19:35:18 <frosch123> projections do not preserve distances 19:35:37 <frosch123> you are computing a length in a projection, which makes no sense to rotate 19:35:48 <Eddi|zuHause> but we all agree that the / view is the "master" view, which all rotations should be based on 19:36:08 <frosch123> the vehicle is driving in a 45 degree angle, not in the projected 30 degree angle 19:36:23 <Eddi|zuHause> isometry only makes sense if the \ / views are not distorted to begin with 19:37:00 <frosch123> can we agree, that the projection preserves horizontal distances? 19:37:02 <Eddi|zuHause> so you start with the assumption that the vehicle projection in / direction has the same length as the original model 19:37:07 <Eddi|zuHause> no 19:37:20 <frosch123> why? 19:38:13 <Eddi|zuHause> the way the game is modeled, it only makes sense that the x/y/z dimensions are 1:1:0.5 19:38:15 <frosch123> if i rotate the world around a horizontal axis, horizontal distance do not change in the projection 19:38:34 <Eddi|zuHause> all other projections follow from that assumption 19:38:39 <frosch123> why are you adding z? that has no effect at all 19:38:53 <Eddi|zuHause> x is /, y is \ 19:39:00 <Eddi|zuHause> z is "up" 19:39:08 <Eddi|zuHause> in 3D model coordinates 19:39:09 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, is right. 19:39:26 <peter1138> pixels across in \ view is not the same as the length of the \ 19:39:27 <frosch123> who cares about "up"? it a tile is flat 19:39:55 <frosch123> so, i ask again: can we agree, that the projection preserves horizontal distances? 19:39:58 <Eddi|zuHause> you don't need a projection if there's no "up" 19:40:20 <frosch123> or is there something fishy about the term "horizontal distance"? 19:41:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i wish i could draw a picture... 19:41:36 <andythenorth> I am redrawing a truck 19:41:39 <andythenorth> does that help? :P 19:41:51 <frosch123> well, i just assume that eddi is wrong :) 19:42:00 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: anyway, i disagree. the projection preserves lengths in / and \ direction 19:42:04 <peter1138> And then there's unfixable things, like the -- and | tracks. 19:42:04 <Eddi|zuHause> other things would be weird 19:42:11 <frosch123> my computations result in sqrt(2), which also matches the experimental scales of pineapple 19:42:15 <peter1138> Because they should be wider. 19:42:50 <frosch123> so, if the \ and / views are unaltered, then the -- view should be 22.6 pixels wide 19:43:02 <frosch123> 28 is still too much 19:43:03 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: again, i'm not questioning the sqrt(2) 19:43:28 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: i just say, that the width of the -- view should be 22.6 19:43:44 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: but sqrt(2)*l is still wrong, if you use the wrong value for l 19:43:55 <frosch123> i use no value for | 19:44:03 <frosch123> i use the horizontal width of \ 19:44:13 <Eddi|zuHause> l as in lower case L 19:44:15 <Eddi|zuHause> not | 19:44:19 <frosch123> we said, that \ and / are the reference 19:44:45 <frosch123> what is your "l"? 19:44:47 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: you assumed the length of the / view is 16, which it isn't 19:45:03 <frosch123> the real length of the vehicle in 3d space, the length of the projection? 19:45:04 <Eddi|zuHause> the length of the / view is 8*sqrt(5) 19:45:12 <Eddi|zuHause> both 19:45:23 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: no, i said the ****horizontal**** extent of the \ is 16 19:45:26 <Eddi|zuHause> as the isometric projection preserves lengths along the x and y axis 19:45:35 <peter1138> Nah 19:45:53 <peter1138> Hmm 19:46:08 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: what? lengths on x and y axis are not preserved at all 19:46:24 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that is the very definition of isometric 19:46:39 <Eddi|zuHause> "iso" meaning "the same", and "metric" meaning "length" 19:46:43 <frosch123> they are scaled equally, they are not preserved 19:47:13 <frosch123> the ttd world is created by a rotation aound the horizontal axis 19:47:38 <frosch123> every projection preserves horizontal distances if the plane is only hoizontally rotated 19:47:55 <andythenorth> hmm 19:48:02 * andythenorth did technical drawing at school 19:48:06 <Eddi|zuHause> that is a very wrong assumption 19:48:50 <frosch123> true, but isometric projections do 19:49:18 <andythenorth> within the rhombus that makes up an iso grid tile, what ellipse would the ends of a rotated line sweep? 19:50:03 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: let's take a square of 16 along the x and 16 along the y axis(and ignore z) 19:50:16 <frosch123> 16 in what space? 19:50:22 <Eddi|zuHause> in 3D space 19:50:22 <frosch123> the real one, or the projected one? 19:50:37 <frosch123> ok 19:51:01 <Eddi|zuHause> the game rotates this so that each length unit of real space gets projected onto the screen as 2 pixel across and 1 pixel up 19:51:16 <andythenorth> ha, those were the days http://www.technologystudent.com/designpro/isomet2.htm 19:51:18 <andythenorth> many days ago 19:52:06 <frosch123> ah, that's where you are screwing up 19:52:07 <Eddi|zuHause> then say the origin of the square (the bottom) is at pixel coordinates (0,0) 19:52:16 <frosch123> you are mixing world lengths with pixel length 19:52:42 <Eddi|zuHause> then the one corner will be at (32,16) and the other at (-32,16) 19:53:08 <Eddi|zuHause> so the length of each edge is sqrt(32^2+16) pixels 19:53:16 <Eddi|zuHause> missing a ^2 19:53:25 <Eddi|zuHause> which is 16*sqrt(5) 19:54:25 <frosch123> so you are giving the scale from world coordinates to diagonal pixels 19:54:30 <frosch123> but that was not the question 19:55:07 <Eddi|zuHause> the question was: what's the projection of a circle of radius 8 length units 19:55:27 <Eddi|zuHause> assuming that the length of the x axis is fixed 19:55:53 <frosch123> but the projected circle is not circle 19:55:56 <frosch123> it's an ellipse 19:56:10 <frosch123> main axes are horizontal/vertical 19:56:26 <frosch123> and the one at 30 degree has your 16*sqrt(5) 19:56:43 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it's not exactly 30° 19:57:00 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc arctan(1/2) 19:57:01 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Error: 'arctan' is not a defined function. 19:57:05 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc atan(1/2) 19:57:05 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 0.463647609001 19:57:11 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc atan(1/2)*180/pi 19:57:11 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 26.5650511771 19:57:20 <frosch123> doesn't matter, by your logic the vertical length of a | vehicle would also be 16*sqrt(5) 19:58:07 <frosch123> you computed the scale of world units to pixels in \ and / axes 19:58:15 <frosch123> and then claimed that the projection preserves a circle 19:58:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i said that 19:58:42 <andythenorth> happy times: http://www.magikoo.com/engineering_and_tecnology/basic_technical_mechanical_drawing_notes_and_tutorial_clip_image010.jpg 19:59:14 <andythenorth> of course, we used to freehand the ellipse :P 19:59:17 <andythenorth> by eye 19:59:29 <andythenorth> because nobody runs a lathe from the iso projection, just the orthographic 19:59:39 <Alberth> like any good draw person :) 19:59:41 *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@95.76.27.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:59:51 <Alberth> lots of arrows in the latter image :) 20:00:25 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, whatever... 20:00:47 <Eddi|zuHause> last time i did the calculation, i thought "24 pixels is probably more than accurate" 20:01:21 <frosch123> at least we agree that 28 is wrong :p 20:02:43 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but it's less wrong than 32 :p 20:03:04 <peter1138> I'm just gonna measure it 20:03:23 *** Alberth [~hat@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has left #openttd [] 20:03:28 <frosch123> peter1138: i did, pineapple uses 66/47 20:03:44 *** gelignite [~gelignite@i528C3997.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: http://bit.ly/nkczDT] 20:03:47 <frosch123> 66 pixels in -- view, 47 horizontal pixels in / view 20:05:23 <peter1138> 16 \ - 20.6 20:05:46 <peter1138> hm, no that's wrong :) 20:05:51 <peter1138> i was measuring the length,hehe 20:06:36 <peter1138> Yeah, frosch123 is right 20:06:50 <peter1138> 16 pixels across in \ = 22.6 pixels across in -- 20:07:34 *** Yotson [~Yotson@2001:980:6ac8:1:55b9:adb9:eb8d:c75f] has quit [Quit: .] 20:07:36 <peter1138> and | views should be half that 20:07:53 <peter1138> concluded. 20:09:01 <peter1138> unless you think it should be stretch because it's isometric? 20:09:03 <Eddi|zuHause> now then, how about my intermediate rotations in CETS? :p 20:09:38 <Eddi|zuHause> steps of 15° (in 3D coordinates) 20:10:59 <peter1138> but 16 * 4 is 64, not 47 :S 20:11:28 <Eddi|zuHause> 23*4 is not 66 either. 20:11:53 <peter1138> frosch123, i was measuring an isometric circle, see 20:12:56 <frosch123> the 47 pixels i measured in pineapple were not a complete vehicle length 20:13:02 <peter1138> ok 20:13:09 <frosch123> but just an easy identifyable length in the sprite 20:14:05 <peter1138> so 64 for \ and 90.5 for -- in 4x 20:14:09 <peter1138> minus spacing 20:14:21 <peter1138> 66 is considerably less than 90 20:14:33 <peter1138> but then 47 is considerably less than 64 20:14:55 * peter1138 doubts himself again 20:15:16 <Eddi|zuHause> better than the 128 you'd get from 32px vehicles 20:15:30 <peter1138> yuck 20:15:31 <NGC3982> When "Your computer took too long to connect". Can the server change the time that took to long? 20:15:46 <peter1138> well, 38 pixels too long vs 24 pixels too short .hmm. 20:15:52 <peter1138> NGC3982, yes 20:16:04 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: that's in the .cfg 20:16:05 <peter1138> ok i think i can close blender now 20:16:16 <NGC3982> max_lag_time? 20:16:27 <Eddi|zuHause> max_join_time or so 20:16:34 <Eddi|zuHause> lag is during the game 20:16:40 <NGC3982> I can join, i just can't play. 20:16:41 <NGC3982> Aight. 20:17:59 <NGC3982> Yes, it worked out nicely. Thank you. 20:18:07 <Eddi|zuHause> there are 3 different times. the time it takes to download, the time it takes you to catch up with whatever happened during the download, and the time you are behind if the computer is too slow to handle everything going on 20:18:35 <Eddi|zuHause> you can't really do anything for the latter 20:19:02 <peter1138> pause_on_join 20:19:09 <peter1138> is that even off by default still? 20:30:23 <andythenorth> hmm 20:30:26 <andythenorth> super compressed 20:35:55 * andythenorth has now lost all sense of proportion :P 20:35:56 <andythenorth> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/6724/proportions.png 20:36:16 <andythenorth> the 22px â view obviously isnât 5/8 or 6/8 20:36:21 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, the quote button on devzone is broken :/ 20:36:27 <andythenorth> but I canât keep track of that being right or wrong 20:36:50 <planetmaker> how so, Eddi|zuHause ? 20:37:07 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: doesn't do anything 20:37:57 <planetmaker> must be you. does work for me 20:38:18 <planetmaker> or something you do different than me 20:38:30 <planetmaker> anywhere specifically? 20:39:12 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it shortly pops up "loading..." and then nothing happens 20:39:15 <andythenorth> going by default bus, 28/15 = 1.8667 20:39:26 <andythenorth> so 22/1.8667 is 11.8 20:39:35 <andythenorth> so my / view is 1px too short 20:39:35 <Eddi|zuHause> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/7227#change-19787 <- i'm on this page, currently 20:39:42 <andythenorth> but the wheels look stupid if not aligned on the grid 20:39:44 <andythenorth> so meh 20:40:07 <frosch123> http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/tiledimension.png 20:40:34 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, when I click on that it opens the edit mode with that specific posting quoted 20:40:56 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it doesn't do that for me 20:41:59 <planetmaker> do you use a browser which only supports ssl3? :P we disabled that 20:42:17 <andythenorth> bah 20:42:20 <Eddi|zuHause> pffft :p 20:42:23 <andythenorth> does that truck look stupid or not? 20:42:53 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: the usual "edit" button on the bottom works, the quote button not. 20:43:03 <frosch123> @calc 22/sqrt(2) 20:43:03 <DorpsGek> frosch123: 15.5563491861 20:43:17 <frosch123> @calc 11*sqrt(2) 20:43:17 <DorpsGek> frosch123: 15.5563491861 20:43:38 <frosch123> andythenorth: either your / view is 4 pixels too short, or your -- view is 6 pixels too long 20:43:51 <frosch123> (in pikka scale) 20:43:52 <andythenorth> the / view is too short 20:43:57 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, edit or update button? 20:43:57 <andythenorth> is pikka scale useful? 20:44:19 <frosch123> in non-pikka scale the lengths are corret though :p 20:44:33 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: button called "bearbeiten" 20:44:46 <frosch123> but since rv do not drive in \ and / direction very much, you can just use pikka scale 20:44:52 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: on the bottom 20:45:10 <frosch123> err, i mean in | and -- direciton ... 20:45:49 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: until we get diagonal roads 20:46:08 <frosch123> i guess we get pikka-style driving before diagonal roads :p 20:48:50 <andythenorth> highly scientific preference test https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/6725/proportions_2.png 20:49:01 <andythenorth> which looks better? 20:49:32 <peter1138> 22px is 8/8 20:50:02 <peter1138> Well, 22.6px 20:50:56 <andythenorth> metric or imperial? 20:51:11 <peter1138> :S 20:51:14 <frosch123> apple pixels 20:51:22 <frosch123> not square, but roundrects 20:51:38 <peter1138> Basically, draw an isometric circle. Then lengths are obviousl. 20:51:40 <peter1138> -l 20:51:50 <andythenorth> the RH one (longer tractor) is 1px too long 20:51:58 <andythenorth> the LH one (shorter tractor) is 1px too short 20:52:01 <andythenorth> same trailer in both 20:52:09 <andythenorth> which is better? o_O 20:52:35 <peter1138> andythenorth, why no inbetween option? 20:53:00 <peter1138> RH looks better aesthetically though. 20:53:56 <andythenorth> wheels go off the grid for in-between option 20:53:58 <andythenorth> looks daft 20:54:06 <andythenorth> like itâs permanently skidding 20:55:51 <andythenorth> hmm so that is now redrawn 5 times, I think this is now correct 20:57:51 <andythenorth> HEQS always bugged me, the / \ views are about 50% too long 20:58:01 <andythenorth> also now I just need to redraw all of squid 20:59:20 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: ah. i remember now how i ended up with 24px the last time: i approximated sqrt(2) as 1,5 21:01:29 *** glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:07:50 <andythenorth> so now just offsets :P 21:07:55 <peter1138> Ok, I made a CETS-like vehicle. 21:08:10 <peter1138> (Just an oblong :p) 21:08:16 <andythenorth> hrm 21:08:35 <andythenorth> offsets can be calculated at compile time 21:08:36 <andythenorth> ho 21:08:39 <andythenorth> thatâs better 21:11:16 <Eddi|zuHause> "Lockheed Martin says fusion power may be ready in 10 years" 21:11:57 *** glx [~glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:dd09:7678:404:4b40] has joined #openttd 21:12:52 <andythenorth> Iâll use it for my flying pig car 21:14:30 <andythenorth> x-axis is the one along which youâd measure the length of the vehicle? 21:14:38 <andythenorth> this is not an iso maths question 21:14:43 <andythenorth> need a property name 21:15:03 <frosch123> use hoizontal/vertical 21:15:16 <frosch123> in ottd X refers to / direction 21:15:34 <andythenorth> maybe I use what we use for effect offset 21:15:35 * andythenorth looks 21:16:28 <andythenorth> meh, nothing useful there 21:16:42 <andythenorth> offset_from_front will do 21:16:42 <Eddi|zuHause> x axis is along your thumb if you use the right hand 21:17:39 <frosch123> you need a weirdly distorted hand for that 21:20:18 * andythenorth needs bed 21:21:33 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: how so? 21:22:04 <frosch123> my thumb always points somewhat upwards 21:22:13 <frosch123> but in ottd the x axis points downwards 21:22:20 <Eddi|zuHause> "right hand rule": x = thumb, y = index, z = middle 21:22:39 <Eddi|zuHause> then turn it so each finger points in the direction where values increase 21:23:14 <frosch123> yeah, that's the theory :p now turn your hand to have the same orientation as ottd :p 21:23:15 <andythenorth> bit of a painful bend :P 21:23:18 <andythenorth> works 21:23:19 <andythenorth> ish 21:23:32 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, openttd has quite an unfortunate orientation on that matter 21:25:29 <Eddi|zuHause> a more common one would be if both the x and the y axis were increasing in the opposite direction 21:26:33 <peter1138> Wrong. 21:27:25 <peter1138> Or right. I'm just not that flexible. 21:28:48 <andythenorth> bed 21:28:48 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has left #openttd [] 21:35:40 *** TomyLobo [~foo@91.65.115.103] has quit [Quit: Standby mode...] 21:38:12 *** montalvo [~montalvo@c-76-103-107-219.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 21:42:22 <frosch123> night 21:42:26 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-4d01176f.pool.mediaways.net] has quit [Quit: be yourself, except: if you have the opportunity to be a unicorn, then be a unicorn] 21:49:50 *** glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:50:12 *** glx [~glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:dd09:7678:404:4b40] has joined #openttd 22:01:17 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~flex@88.130.182.166] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:01:29 *** kais58|A1K is now known as kais58__1 22:12:45 <Wolf01> 'night 22:12:48 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 22:15:55 *** glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:16:52 *** ixalovh [~ixalovh@adsl-69-208-81-185.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 22:17:42 *** ixalovh [~ixalovh@adsl-69-208-81-185.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #openttd 22:17:49 *** glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 22:17:52 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 22:43:01 *** FLHerne [~flh@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Quit: There's a real world out here!] 22:47:10 *** Brumi [~quassel@78-131-41-191.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [] 22:56:51 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:01:36 *** SHOTbyGUN [shotbygun@213-186-253-83.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:15:16 *** Flygon_ [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has joined #openttd 23:22:06 *** Flygon [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]