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Log for #openttd on 10th September 2015:
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06:48:10  <andythenorth> ho
06:48:15  <andythenorth> conveyors will cover all sins :P
06:48:15  <andythenorth> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7461/clay_pit_improved_23.png
06:48:20  <andythenorth> once finished
06:49:51  <__ln__> there's a huge grey arrow floating in the sky
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06:51:14  <andythenorth> fuck, must be a bug :o
06:59:05  <peter1138> you're a bug
07:04:21  <andythenorth> harsh
07:04:32  * andythenorth can’t handle sledging before the second cup of coffee :(
07:11:53  <planetmaker> moin
07:12:18  <planetmaker> I like that version
07:16:56  <andythenorth> it will work ok
07:17:11  <andythenorth> but I’ll do it better
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09:09:14  <andythenorth> planetmaker: o_O https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7462/clay_pit_improved_24.png
09:12:16  <planetmaker> :)
09:12:54  <planetmaker> the 2nd small hut on the pit border is really good
09:13:10  <planetmaker> or rather 2nd and 3rd with belt
09:13:42  <planetmaker> a definitive win overall over previous iterations
09:14:21  <andythenorth> I am going to swap the positions of the big silo / crusher buildings
09:14:27  <andythenorth> and make one of them smaller
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09:17:09  * andythenorth has drawn and deleted a lot of nice pixels for this industry
09:18:56  <Supercheese> Wow, but this latest one is smashingly good
09:19:26  <Supercheese> I love the way CHIPS dirt stations can integrate
09:19:57  <Supercheese> since the dirt now matches more readily
09:29:49  <andythenorth> CHIPS has been the other moving part
09:30:07  <andythenorth> I haven’t shown that in the other 23 ‘improved’ screenshots :P
09:30:14  <andythenorth> but I need it to work with CHIPS platforms :P
09:39:57  <andythenorth> “this improvement brought to you by
”
09:40:00  <andythenorth>  5 second FIRS compiles
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09:59:23  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i still have 2 problems with that:
09:59:35  <Eddi|zuHause> 1) the conveyor belt should end at the buildings in all layouts
09:59:56  <Eddi|zuHause> 2) the buildings on the SW end stick out like a sore thumb, they should be rotated
10:00:49  <andythenorth> this approach requires sprites to change between layouts
10:00:52  <andythenorth> sprites don’t do that
10:01:22  <Eddi|zuHause> just use different tiles for the rotations?
10:01:39  <Eddi|zuHause> one layout uses tiles ABC and the second BCD?
10:02:45  * andythenorth could run the conveyor on all sides
10:02:58  <Eddi|zuHause> drop the layout with buildings on SE side, and have the end of the conveyor belt in a place where it is next to the buldings on SW and NW side
10:03:36  <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. move the NW buildings one tile to the corner
10:03:48  <Eddi|zuHause> and have the SW buildings on that same corner
10:07:34  <andythenorth> drop the SE or SW?
10:07:39  <andythenorth> the SW is the one that looks bad
10:09:22  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i implied that the SW one gets rotated buildings to look better
10:09:27  <andythenorth> nah
10:09:31  <andythenorth> that would need new sprites
10:09:48  <Eddi|zuHause> the old one had rotated buildings?
10:09:55  <andythenorth> I’m not convinced that layout with the sticking out SW buildings adds more placement options
10:09:57  <andythenorth> and it looks bad
10:10:05  <andythenorth> and variety is pointless if it looks bad
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10:29:44  * andythenorth deletes that one
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11:21:39  <andythenorth> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7464/clay_pit_improved_25.png
11:21:51  <andythenorth> the second conveyor conveniently located by the animated bulldozer
11:21:57  <andythenorth> so I’m calling that serendipity
11:22:51  <planetmaker> :)
11:23:48  <Eddi|zuHause> the fence disappears when a station is placed?
11:23:51  <andythenorth> yes
11:24:09  <andythenorth> that’s a FIRS feature, which is perhaps a mis-feature at this specific industry
11:24:13  <Eddi|zuHause> what about truck stops?
11:24:22  <andythenorth> yes
11:24:36  <Eddi|zuHause> it's probably alright
11:24:49  <planetmaker> makes sense, I think
11:25:52  <andythenorth> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7465/clay_pit_improved_26.png
11:25:53  <Eddi|zuHause> now one small detail left: what's the reason for the different ground tiles between buildings and pit? why not all-dirt or all-grass?
11:26:57  <andythenorth> pit looks weird with dirt edges
11:27:08  <andythenorth> I have been wondering about using a part-grass terrain tile
11:27:09  <andythenorth> but tbh
11:27:15  <andythenorth> then I could delete the conveyors
11:27:22  <andythenorth> they only exist to cover the gap
11:27:56  <andythenorth> I tried buildings on grass, looks stupid
11:28:06  <andythenorth> I tried pit on mud tiles, looks stupid
11:29:00  <Eddi|zuHause> keep the conveyors, they look good
11:29:53  <Eddi|zuHause> although the back conveyor looks a bit odd starting in the water, maybe move it back a few pixels so it starts on the sand
11:31:42  <andythenorth> it’s making a weird angle with the pile
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11:31:51  <V453000> this is quite awesome andy
11:32:14  <andythenorth> is ’awesome’ a synonym for ‘massively over-engineered’?
11:32:15  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i mean start on the NE beach, away from the pile
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11:32:32  <andythenorth> (13MB) https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7466/clay_pit_with_conveyors.mov
11:33:31  <V453000> would be great to see some movement on the belts
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11:34:10  <andythenorth> probably in v3
11:34:12  <andythenorth> can be done
11:34:15  <andythenorth> just alternate pixels
11:34:19  <Wolf01> hihi
11:34:24  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the crane needs to go up closed, and down open
11:34:42  <andythenorth> for realisms yes
11:34:51  <andythenorth> for not having to draw more sprites, no
11:35:04  <andythenorth> it reverses the sequence currently
11:35:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i think you have skewed optimization goals :p
11:35:15  <andythenorth> also I tried drawing the bucket closed, and it looked like a blob
11:35:48  <Eddi|zuHause> and you need this start/stop animation thing
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11:35:59  <Eddi|zuHause> permanent animation is annoying
11:36:04  <andythenorth> yes, but eh
11:36:23  <andythenorth> more interestingly, I need to replace the base set sprites for bauxite mine, copper mine, diamond mine and iron ore mine
11:36:32  <andythenorth> which is challenging
11:36:50  <planetmaker> you don't need to replace the sprites but just invent the industries anew. Much easier :P
11:36:58  <andythenorth> replace / draw anew
11:37:10  <andythenorth> improving the opengfx sprites would be the easy route :)
11:37:20  <andythenorth> but the iron ore mine is daft
11:37:33  <andythenorth> deep mines all, or more bloody open pits?
11:39:26  <andythenorth> Dan’s mock-up for Bauxite https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7154/Bauxite_mine1.png
11:40:47  <Wolf01> whoa
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11:49:34  <andythenorth> eh, also there is a time window for boosting secondary production by combining input cargos
11:49:40  <andythenorth> FIRS v1 has it as 30 days
11:49:49  <andythenorth> FIRS v2 I set it to 90 days, because I prefer the play style
11:49:54  <planetmaker> wow, that bauxite mine does look quite nice
11:50:08  <andythenorth> is it validly a parameter, or will it just confuse players?
11:50:42  <Wolf01> the clay pit with conveyors look really nice, and i agree with eddi, you need start/stop animation
11:50:45  <planetmaker> 90 days seems nicer... making it a parameter... it's a difficulty setting of sorts. Depends on the hassle you want to go for and how much it is to make it a parameter, I think
11:51:12  <andythenorth> I think the code is easy, but explaining it in action 14 text is harder
11:51:48  <andythenorth> if people want more difficulty they can use SPI
11:51:49  <andythenorth> or ECS
11:51:57  <andythenorth> or it can be a parameter in v3
11:54:35  * andythenorth wonders which forum user will find out that is in fact 90 days, not three months
11:54:47  <andythenorth> and they’ll do it by exhaustive testing, not reading the source :P
11:54:56  <andythenorth> still, nice game they play :)
12:00:18  <planetmaker> :)
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14:36:02  <andythenorth> planetmaker: the major problem with bauxite pit is the floor of the pit
14:36:10  <andythenorth> making it not weird
14:36:26  <andythenorth> would it be repeating tiles, because that’s quite TTD-ish?
14:36:32  <andythenorth> or would it be one huge drawn sprite?
14:36:45  <andythenorth> sprite / piece of art with no repetition /s
14:37:05  <planetmaker> could be both. TTD seems go for the latter, one huge sprite
14:37:21  <andythenorth> for mines yes
14:37:43  <planetmaker> could be several multi-tile sprites which can be re-arranged, as a kind of middle ground, though
14:37:47  <andythenorth> I have been wondering about making a smaller pit, but repeating it
14:37:58  <andythenorth> connected to a processor by conveyors or such
14:38:11  <andythenorth> dunno about trucks, I always think they should be moving
14:38:21  <planetmaker> also, just to warn you: we'll have probably very soon a devzone downtime for maintenance (aka asap). Thus might go down somewhen for short time
14:38:35  <andythenorth> ho ok :)
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14:41:36  <andythenorth> http://media.wirtgen-group.com/media/06_ciber/news_and_pressreleases/2012_bauxite_para/Bauxite_Para_02_880x0.png
14:41:40  <andythenorth> not much to see there :P
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14:47:48  <andythenorth> hmm
14:47:58  <andythenorth> also that mockup needs a 5x7 layout
14:48:04  <andythenorth> hard to place
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14:48:25  <andythenorth> lo Alberth
14:48:34  <Alberth> hihi
14:49:01  <Alberth> your fight with the pits is done?
14:49:06  <andythenorth> for now
14:51:49  <Alberth> ie "normal state" :)
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14:54:01  * andythenorth has to fight more industries
14:54:07  <andythenorth> but eh, maybe a v2 beta first
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15:02:54  <Alberth> getting some more feedback would be good
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16:22:38  <peter1138> that's easy, i just turn the gain up too much
16:23:10  <Alberth> gaining lots of noise then :)
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16:42:19  <andythenorth> Alberth: eints doesn’t handle branches other than default? o_O
16:42:30  <andythenorth> [this would make sense]
16:43:54  <^Spike^> saw eints and thought something broke but that doesn't seem to be the case :D
16:44:18  <Alberth> eints itself doesn't know about branches
16:44:28  <Alberth> it just gets files
16:44:44  <Alberth> maybe the push & pull scripts do something, but not sure
16:45:11  <Alberth> I didn't write those scripts
16:45:11  <andythenorth> I’m wondering how to get translations in place for FIRS 2.0.0
16:45:20  <andythenorth> possibly I do an alpha, then a beta in the branch
16:45:21  <andythenorth> or so
16:45:27  <andythenorth> then merge to master for an RC
16:45:37  <andythenorth> and let translators work then, before final release
16:46:56  <Alberth> move 2.0 to default?
16:47:32  <Alberth> but really, I have no idea what the push & pull scripts do here
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17:47:13  <andythenorth> eh come on compile farm
17:47:15  <andythenorth> go faster
17:47:38  <Alberth> :)
17:47:55  <andythenorth> I want $someone to proof-read the changelog
17:48:25  * andythenorth has to be patient :P
17:48:31  <Alberth> and a faster compile farm helps there? :)
17:49:05  <andythenorth> waiting for the html docs to be built
17:49:10  <andythenorth> reading the raw source is uglier
17:50:41  <andythenorth> wow compile farm builds FIRS slowly :o
17:50:48  <Alberth> depending on the layout, that can be ugly indeed
17:51:17  <Alberth> it's so good, it takes longer to appreciate all the worl
17:51:19  <Alberth> *work
17:51:20  <andythenorth> “6 min 53 sec and counting”
17:51:34  <Alberth> :)
17:51:52  <Alberth> eints is clearly just crap, it needs only 18 seconds or so :)
17:52:03  * andythenorth got bored waiting
17:52:04  <andythenorth> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/src/docs_templates/changelog.pt
17:52:42  <Alberth> :)
17:52:47  <Alberth> I'll have a look
17:52:55  <andythenorth> thanks :)
17:53:02  * andythenorth wonders if jenkins is stuck
17:56:40  <Alberth> probably V is keeping it busy :p
17:58:17  <Alberth> initial uppercase for all the items?
18:00:19  <Alberth> full firs economy is not default any more?
18:02:11  <andythenorth> I think it is
18:02:13  * andythenorth checks
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18:03:00  <andythenorth> Full Firs is still default :)
18:03:07  <andythenorth> the order of that changelog is dubious
18:03:13  <Alberth> quite :)
18:03:23  <frosch123> hola hi hoi
18:03:25  <andythenorth> ah the pretty version http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/changelog.html
18:03:29  <andythenorth> ho hi frosch123
18:03:47  <Alberth> I'd shuffle the entries so the same kinds of entries are near each other
18:03:50  <Alberth> hi hi frosch123
18:03:52  <andythenorth> +1
18:06:38  <andythenorth> so in the final analysis, is the Quarry now better?
18:06:41  <andythenorth> current: https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7464/clay_pit_improved_25.png
18:06:48  <andythenorth> previous: http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/static/img/industries/quarry.png
18:07:19  <andythenorth> wouldn’t be the first time the changed version is worse than the original :)
18:09:59  <V453000> I love how the edge is not uniform width andythenorth
18:10:07  <V453000> really sells that it is jut wet/mud edge
18:10:18  <Alberth> current is better, imho
18:10:42  <Alberth> the green grass looks more in place with the buildings in some way
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18:18:43  <Alberth> andythenorth:  https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pxk6oyuuy
18:19:46  <andythenorth> embarassingly, your English is better than mine :|
18:21:13  <andythenorth> I’ll add that patch, thanks
18:22:45  <Alberth> ha, I had that experience with a colleague from work with Dutch, she knew all about grammar, while I just do things on feeling
18:23:14  <Alberth> some things are suggestions
18:24:13  <Alberth> mostly the "<--" things need some thinking perhaps :)
18:26:30  <planetmaker> holla :)
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18:32:45  * andythenorth watches Jenkins again
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18:33:18  <Alberth> hi hi planetmaker
18:35:06  <Taede> ello
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18:40:04  <andythenorth> fixed http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/changelog.html
18:42:04  <frosch123> yay, christmas advertising
18:42:31  <Alberth> :)
18:42:55  <andythenorth> hmm
18:42:58  <andythenorth> Christmas FIRS
18:43:44  <Alberth> looks good, andy
18:44:04  <Wolf01> \o/
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18:48:24  <andythenorth> eh before I make a bananas mistake...
18:48:31  <andythenorth> I have tagged FIRS 2.0.0-alpha
18:48:42  <andythenorth> it has the same grfid as FIRS 1.x
18:48:54  <andythenorth> I am planning to upload it to bananas, set to nightly openttd >= 27280
18:49:08  <andythenorth> (requires increased industry limit)
18:49:13  <andythenorth> is this a viable plan?
18:50:12  <Wolf01> yay 453MiB of grf upgrades to download
18:51:02  <Wolf01> i think i'll need to cleanup my install folder
18:51:29  <Wolf01> get rid of everything and keep just the 2 or 3 grfs i really need
18:51:48  <Wolf01> like pineapple, zbase... oh wait
18:53:26  <Alberth> you can safely keep everything else as well, you won't notice the difference :)
18:53:40  <Wolf01> that was the point
18:53:42  <andythenorth> oh
18:53:44  <andythenorth> bananas
18:53:45  <andythenorth> https://bananas.openttd.org/en/manager/update/3644
18:54:14  <andythenorth> is a “broken in production”
18:54:29  <andythenorth> also the edit view
18:54:38  <andythenorth> and ‘add new'
18:54:47  <andythenorth> lawks
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18:54:50  <drac_boy> hi
18:55:17  <andythenorth> Unhandled Exception
18:55:17  <andythenorth> An unhandled exception was thrown by the application.
18:55:32  <andythenorth> there is probably a long forum thread about this, and I am late to the party?
18:55:41  <frosch123> yup
18:55:49  <Alberth> not very long, but yeah
18:55:50  <frosch123> the answer is: use musa
18:56:04  <frosch123> Alberth: there are also like 2 fs tasks and some irc conversions :p
18:56:24  <Alberth> ah, it's distributed :)
18:56:28  <drac_boy> musa?
18:57:05  <andythenorth> ach
18:57:15  <Alberth> drac_boy: Python program that prepares your upload, and checks for silly mistakes and such
18:57:22  <frosch123> drac_boy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musa_%28genus%29
18:57:41  <drac_boy> ah ok alberth
18:57:43  <andythenorth> I don’t have musa and I *do* have to make dinner :|
18:57:57  <andythenorth> can anyone upload FIRS 2.0.0-alpha to the coop account?
18:58:05  <andythenorth> nightly openttd >= 27280
18:59:49  <andythenorth> hmm jenkins hasn’t built the tag yet
18:59:50  <andythenorth> nvm
19:00:10  <drac_boy> heh going from firs1 to firs2?
19:00:12  <andythenorth> oh it had no changes
19:00:29  <andythenorth> yak-shaving :P
19:02:45  <drac_boy> so why going to 2 then? ;)
19:02:59  <Alberth> 1 was already used
19:03:13  <andythenorth> yair
19:03:17  <frosch123> if there is nothing new, you have to at least use a new version number
19:03:18  <andythenorth> 1 has been done
19:03:24  <andythenorth> 1 is old news
19:03:30  <andythenorth> this year’s number is 2
19:03:32  <Alberth> and 0 was silly
19:03:38  <andythenorth> rubbish also
19:03:45  <andythenorth> could have gone to 3
19:03:50  <andythenorth> that would have raised the game
19:03:51  <drac_boy> well if its 2 then what is new?
19:04:05  <andythenorth> well if Jenkins would build it, you could read the changelog
19:04:12  <andythenorth> online and everything
19:04:15  <andythenorth> but you can’t
19:04:20  <andythenorth> can you fix Jenkins?
19:05:36  <andythenorth> drac_boy: http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/changelog.html
19:16:01  <drac_boy> heh https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COXPW14WsAAeArc.jpg
19:16:20  * drac_boy would want to know how much coal is down there
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22:09:06  <Wolf01> 'night
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